August 11, 2025 • 9 mins
Director of forest industry advisory and publishing firm DANA, who says the farming sector has been laying it on a bit thick, but he concedes it has done a better job of lobbying than the forestry sector when it comes to carbon farming. He also says there is now less land area in plantation trees in 2024 than there was in 2003. But how much high-producing pastoral and arable land has gone to pine trees?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
One of the big stories out there at the moment,
and the Herald, to give it credit, has done an
excellent job over the past two days, is on carbon farming.
The ETS farm to forestry conversion now Beef and Land
New Zealand says the government hasn't gone far enough on
carbon farming legislation. However, his self anointed oracle of forestry,
(00:22):
Dennis Neilson, a director of forestry advisory and publishing firm Dana,
says the farming sector has been laying it on a
bit thick, but he concedes it has done a better
job of lobbying than the forestry sector. Are you admitting defeat? Dennis,
Good afternoon.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Good afternoon, mister mcli. I'm omitting success the forestry lobby
by large, according to advisers that Tommy directly earned directly
thrilled the bits that new land planting on farms of
pine trees is has come to a screeching halt and
(01:01):
maybe maybe forever, I don't know. And the people that
own trees, the three owners and throw the bits that
that's happened. So really not a milling the feeders of
milling success.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Well that's not quite true. Dennis because as it stands,
under the proposed new legislation which will come into law
later this year, any farmer out there can plant twenty
five percent of their farm in pines. I'm involved in
a dairy farming operation. We've got a run off block
worth thinking of doing exactly that. Isn't it all about
right tree, right place. There's plenty of places to plant
(01:35):
pine trees, and let's be honest, you're planting them for
carbon credits, not for production forestry. But there's plenty of
places to plant them. But my beef with you guys,
Dennis is you've been planting them on good food producing
and in some cases arable land. It's just not right.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Noel Jamie, As I mentioned earlier, I don't know if
it was on the call or not, but my calculations
indicate that that forestry in New Zealand is five times
more efficient of in the earning export dollars than pastoral
farming is five times more efficient. So I don't know
what there's two definitions to get that get confused. One's
(02:18):
carbon farming, what's that? Who knows? I mean, every three
my apple trees at the back of carbon farming because
they're sequestering carbon. And what's the difference between carbon farming
and production of carbon forestry and production forestry? Very confusing.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Well, i'll tell you what they hang on, Dennis. I'll
tell you what the difference is. My read on this,
and I might be wrong. You know more about forestry
than me. That some of these pine plantations will never
be harvested. That's what I call carbon farming. I'm all
for production forestry. It's our fourth biggest export earner, behind
dairy meat and horticulture.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yes, well, I don't know of any international investors. There
will be, but I don't know any who actually plant
trees with the express purpose of never harvesting them. They
don't in Europe especially and elsewhere. That's all production forestry,
and they expect to be production forestry in New Zealand.
That's my understanding. So I don't know who the people
(03:15):
who plant carbon forests are. They must be New Zealand farmers,
I suppose. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Now, I know that you know you're saying, And I
guess this is credit to Federated farmers and beef and lambers.
They've played a better pr game than you because the
government has really taken note and done something about it.
Some people are saying it's closing the stable door after
the horse has bolted. But Dennis, what are you going
to do about some of this pristine farmland that has
(03:41):
been planted into pine trees which never should have been
How do we revert that back or do we ever
revert that back?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
A very good question, Jamie. Right now, in most catchment
areas in New Zealand, because of regional councils, it's not
legal to change land use from forestry to farming. It's
not legal. It's illegal, and that's wrong. And if I was,
I will join you and joint venture and robbing the
government to make it totally legal. If a farmer or
(04:10):
a landowner has trees on their property and they want
to convert it back to farming, that should be legal,
and I'll join with you in lobbying for that.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Well, we've seen a great example of that on the
Volcanic Plateau, Yes, with the land farms.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Yeah, but that that curved before the restrictions came in,
was the runoff and nitrate restrictions. That would not be
allowed today. That would be illegal to do today. In fact,
it got stopped the land Corp farms and down close
to Waireki in north of Tapo. They had to stop
doing that because the law chained so they could not
and it's now legal to that conversion and should not be.
(04:50):
I think any landowners should have the right to convert
forests to farms if they wish, And I'll join you
and joint venture and lobbying whatever minister you want to,
and I'll come along to any meetings to help you
do that.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Well, that'll make my day now. And the herald Part
two of the story was today can't see the sheep
for the trees? Ten years, one hundred thousand hectares and
nearly a billion dollars of foreign forestry conversion, and it's
been mapped interestingly over that period. I think the past
decade only seven requests to the OIO have been refused,
(05:24):
so this has gone on unabated.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
I haven't seen that Jamie Gray's today's numbers, but you've
seen them there whatever they are, and they are whatever
they are because the OIO they're official, and I think
we're that's worthy weak track. Since twenty ten we track
every OO approval or rejection and at some three hundred
(05:49):
and fifty involving forestry. A lot of them have been
forest sales to forest sales, not new land. So I
can't really comment on those numbers. Jamie. You might repeat,
but it doesn't matter. But that's happened, and that's history,
and the stop.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Dennis Nielsen with this forestry oracle, self anointed. Good on
your Dennis, always enjoy your input. You're claiming, or you
point out that large tracts of sheep farming country and
this is off the back of Federated Farmers Save our
Sheep campaign, particularly in Canterbury and South and haven't gone
into trees, They've gone into drying. And one of your
other mates provided me with cimonpho this morning saying in
(06:27):
the two decades between nineteen ninety five and twenty fifteen,
dairy farming grew in land use, in land use in
terms of hectares by forty five percent. But once again Dennis,
putting the environmental imprint of that to one side. It
is going from food producing land to food producing land.
(06:47):
My beef once again is that we're planting or we
have been planting the wrong tree in the wrong place.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
That's the lobate that will be permanent and will agree
to disagree, I think very simple. I'm a simple person.
The person that should decide whether they plant a tree,
or grow a sheep or grow a dairy cow shall
be the landowner, not the government.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, and the farmer's got the right under this new legislation,
as I said, to plant up to twenty five percent
of their farm and forestry, which would be a smart move.
Get the carbon credits, grow trees on some of your
unproductive especially south facing land. But when it comes to forestry,
and I don't blame the production forestry industry here at all, Dennis,
because it's pure economics. You don't want to be planting
(07:35):
on steep land way out the back of beyond for
numerous reasons, but you want to be planting on rolling
or even flat land close to a port. Makes it
more economic.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
It does, indeed, But that's not going to happen anymore.
But I fully support farmers and I always have. We
with Mike King of Interpine here and Rover we had
several seven hours in twenty twenty one twenty to twenty
two around New Zealand. We asked beef had to support us.
It was farmers can have their cake and eat it. Too,
(08:06):
they can actually have a farm, they can plant a
part of it and trees and actually be better off around.
So we've always supported farmers planning part of their farms
and trees always, and I admire and you and your
team and your joint venture partners police plant part of
your farm and trees. It's fantastic. But I don't know.
(08:28):
I think our minister believes that there's going to be
continuing high activity and new land planting even with these
new policy new policies becoming law and in place. I
don't necessarily agree. I think it will slow down considerably.
To ask the nursery people who someone has to order
trees for next year to plant? No one's ordering any
(08:49):
tree what you not anyone else. So I think we'll
have a slow down. Whether it's going to be temporary
or permanent.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Who knows, Dennis Neilson, I could check to you all day.
They haven't got all day. I think the farmer and
the forester can be friends. Absolutely agree, Dennis Kneelsen, thanks
for your time.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Thank you
One of the big stories out there at the moment,
and the Herald, to give it credit, has done an
excellent job over the past two days, is on carbon farming.
The ETS farm to forestry conversion now Beef and Land
New Zealand says the government hasn't gone far enough on
carbon farming legislation. However, his self anointed oracle of forestry,
(00:22):
Dennis Neilson, a director of forestry advisory and publishing firm Dana,
says the farming sector has been laying it on a
bit thick, but he concedes it has done a better
job of lobbying than the forestry sector. Are you admitting defeat? Dennis,
Good afternoon.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Good afternoon, mister mcli. I'm omitting success the forestry lobby
by large, according to advisers that Tommy directly earned directly
thrilled the bits that new land planting on farms of
pine trees is has come to a screeching halt and
(01:01):
maybe maybe forever, I don't know. And the people that
own trees, the three owners and throw the bits that
that's happened. So really not a milling the feeders of
milling success.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Well that's not quite true. Dennis because as it stands,
under the proposed new legislation which will come into law
later this year, any farmer out there can plant twenty
five percent of their farm in pines. I'm involved in
a dairy farming operation. We've got a run off block
worth thinking of doing exactly that. Isn't it all about
right tree, right place. There's plenty of places to plant
(01:35):
pine trees, and let's be honest, you're planting them for
carbon credits, not for production forestry. But there's plenty of
places to plant them. But my beef with you guys,
Dennis is you've been planting them on good food producing
and in some cases arable land. It's just not right.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Noel Jamie, As I mentioned earlier, I don't know if
it was on the call or not, but my calculations
indicate that that forestry in New Zealand is five times
more efficient of in the earning export dollars than pastoral
farming is five times more efficient. So I don't know
what there's two definitions to get that get confused. One's
(02:18):
carbon farming, what's that? Who knows? I mean, every three
my apple trees at the back of carbon farming because
they're sequestering carbon. And what's the difference between carbon farming
and production of carbon forestry and production forestry? Very confusing.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Well, i'll tell you what they hang on, Dennis. I'll
tell you what the difference is. My read on this,
and I might be wrong. You know more about forestry
than me. That some of these pine plantations will never
be harvested. That's what I call carbon farming. I'm all
for production forestry. It's our fourth biggest export earner, behind
dairy meat and horticulture.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yes, well, I don't know of any international investors. There
will be, but I don't know any who actually plant
trees with the express purpose of never harvesting them. They
don't in Europe especially and elsewhere. That's all production forestry,
and they expect to be production forestry in New Zealand.
That's my understanding. So I don't know who the people
(03:15):
who plant carbon forests are. They must be New Zealand farmers,
I suppose. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Now, I know that you know you're saying, And I
guess this is credit to Federated farmers and beef and lambers.
They've played a better pr game than you because the
government has really taken note and done something about it.
Some people are saying it's closing the stable door after
the horse has bolted. But Dennis, what are you going
to do about some of this pristine farmland that has
(03:41):
been planted into pine trees which never should have been
How do we revert that back or do we ever
revert that back?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
A very good question, Jamie. Right now, in most catchment
areas in New Zealand, because of regional councils, it's not
legal to change land use from forestry to farming. It's
not legal. It's illegal, and that's wrong. And if I was,
I will join you and joint venture and robbing the
government to make it totally legal. If a farmer or
(04:10):
a landowner has trees on their property and they want
to convert it back to farming, that should be legal,
and I'll join with you in lobbying for that.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Well, we've seen a great example of that on the
Volcanic Plateau, Yes, with the land farms.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Yeah, but that that curved before the restrictions came in,
was the runoff and nitrate restrictions. That would not be
allowed today. That would be illegal to do today. In fact,
it got stopped the land Corp farms and down close
to Waireki in north of Tapo. They had to stop
doing that because the law chained so they could not
and it's now legal to that conversion and should not be.
(04:50):
I think any landowners should have the right to convert
forests to farms if they wish, And I'll join you
and joint venture and lobbying whatever minister you want to,
and I'll come along to any meetings to help you
do that.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Well, that'll make my day now. And the herald Part
two of the story was today can't see the sheep
for the trees? Ten years, one hundred thousand hectares and
nearly a billion dollars of foreign forestry conversion, and it's
been mapped interestingly over that period. I think the past
decade only seven requests to the OIO have been refused,
(05:24):
so this has gone on unabated.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
I haven't seen that Jamie Gray's today's numbers, but you've
seen them there whatever they are, and they are whatever
they are because the OIO they're official, and I think
we're that's worthy weak track. Since twenty ten we track
every OO approval or rejection and at some three hundred
(05:49):
and fifty involving forestry. A lot of them have been
forest sales to forest sales, not new land. So I
can't really comment on those numbers. Jamie. You might repeat,
but it doesn't matter. But that's happened, and that's history,
and the stop.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Dennis Nielsen with this forestry oracle, self anointed. Good on
your Dennis, always enjoy your input. You're claiming, or you
point out that large tracts of sheep farming country and
this is off the back of Federated Farmers Save our
Sheep campaign, particularly in Canterbury and South and haven't gone
into trees, They've gone into drying. And one of your
other mates provided me with cimonpho this morning saying in
(06:27):
the two decades between nineteen ninety five and twenty fifteen,
dairy farming grew in land use, in land use in
terms of hectares by forty five percent. But once again Dennis,
putting the environmental imprint of that to one side. It
is going from food producing land to food producing land.
(06:47):
My beef once again is that we're planting or we
have been planting the wrong tree in the wrong place.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
That's the lobate that will be permanent and will agree
to disagree, I think very simple. I'm a simple person.
The person that should decide whether they plant a tree,
or grow a sheep or grow a dairy cow shall
be the landowner, not the government.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, and the farmer's got the right under this new legislation,
as I said, to plant up to twenty five percent
of their farm and forestry, which would be a smart move.
Get the carbon credits, grow trees on some of your
unproductive especially south facing land. But when it comes to forestry,
and I don't blame the production forestry industry here at all, Dennis,
because it's pure economics. You don't want to be planting
(07:35):
on steep land way out the back of beyond for
numerous reasons, but you want to be planting on rolling
or even flat land close to a port. Makes it
more economic.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
It does, indeed, But that's not going to happen anymore.
But I fully support farmers and I always have. We
with Mike King of Interpine here and Rover we had
several seven hours in twenty twenty one twenty to twenty
two around New Zealand. We asked beef had to support us.
It was farmers can have their cake and eat it. Too,
(08:06):
they can actually have a farm, they can plant a
part of it and trees and actually be better off around.
So we've always supported farmers planning part of their farms
and trees always, and I admire and you and your
team and your joint venture partners police plant part of
your farm and trees. It's fantastic. But I don't know.
(08:28):
I think our minister believes that there's going to be
continuing high activity and new land planting even with these
new policy new policies becoming law and in place. I
don't necessarily agree. I think it will slow down considerably.
To ask the nursery people who someone has to order
trees for next year to plant? No one's ordering any
(08:49):
tree what you not anyone else. So I think we'll
have a slow down. Whether it's going to be temporary
or permanent.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Who knows, Dennis Neilson, I could check to you all day.
They haven't got all day. I think the farmer and
the forester can be friends. Absolutely agree, Dennis Kneelsen, thanks
for your time.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Thank you
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