September 11, 2025 • 7 mins
Some foresters are starting to regret rushing into carbon credit farming, and “a few bad actors are giving the sector a bad name”, according to the chief executive of the Forestry Owners Association.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Doctor Elizabeth hig Is, the chief executive of the Forest
Owners Association. Read a story yesterday about carbon farming being
a poison chalice piqued my interest. We're going to talk
about that, but Elizabeth, before we do, as soon as
you open your mouth, people are going to pick you.
Are an American. It is nine to eleven American time.
Where were you? What were you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Oh? Well, I was about to head into university back
when the attack happened, and glued to the telly for
a few minutes before we had to shoot off, and
then just this eerie silence for the next few days
where no planes were flying. But yeah, it is. It's
still a pretty somber occasion, and certainly, you know, with
(00:46):
the increased levels of violence we're sitting now, it's all.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Very it's very sobering, very sad and sobering. You were
quoted as saying, a few bad actors are giving the sector,
this is the fore street sect a bad name, and
some foresters are having rocks thrown at them. Explain to
me what you meant by that.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Well, when you look at the statistics around who's participating
in carbon markets, I think it's really important to note
that the majority of exotic forestry that's in the emissions
trading scheme can actually be harvested. So there's only six
percent of exotics in the ets that are in the
(01:30):
permanent category. So the perception that there's a whole bunch
of carbon only forests out there and that when you're
driving around the countryside, what you're seeing is all carbon
forest is not true. There's eighty three percent of the
current post eighty nine estate in mpi's most recent a
(01:54):
Forestation and Deforestation Intentions Report is meant to be harvested.
As you look forestry broadly, actually there's a lot of
timber foresters that have carbon as part of their management
portfolio and that are managing their forests effectively. So this
perception of that all the pine that people are seeing
(02:16):
going right now is somebody is just going to walk
away from that and leave it. There may be a
small percentage even of those carbon only foresters that have
told people that's how they're going to manage their forest,
But on the whole, a big proportion of what's going
in is timber forestry, and of that climate forestry, there's
(02:36):
actually a whole bunch of the forests that have specific
management plans to eventually transition into native forests.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Well, I think it's great that the foresters can pick
up some carbon credits along the way. In fact, a
Federated Farmers as saying, is this correct, seventy percent of
the revenue for harvested trees at the moment was coming
from carbon? Is it that high?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I think it's so. I wouldn't. It would depend on
your forest model. I think that's probably a broad generalization.
I think what the carbon income is doing right now
for folks that have timber and carbon is helping us
address margin compression where we're seeing and everybody's experiencing this.
(03:20):
But you know, higher transport costs, higher energy costs, higher
labor cost we've got across the board. You know, it's
not like the log price is going up alongside inflation
and some of the cost increases that we're seeing, and
carbon's helping us kind of meet that gap. I think
(03:41):
where in the future it can also be really helpful
is where farmers want to plant forests. You know, they
may only have one age class or two age classes,
and for farmers and for mari who may be starting
with less in their pocket, it means they can get
some income as the forest is growing that helps them
(04:01):
address some of these management challenges along the way, and
that includes the pass and weeds issues that we're seeing
as well.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Well, let's have a look at those pests and weed issues,
especially the pests. Once again, quite in federated farmers farms
adjoining pine forests were losing lambs to feral pigs as
they came out of the trees and killed the lambs,
and were hearing about unmanaged forests no perhaps fire protection.
(04:29):
They managed in the same way a professional production forestry
block would be managed.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
So they should be. And I think an important point
to make that I've made at a conference earlier this
week is that all production forests, whether it's production for
timber or for timber and carbon or for carbon, all
of them need active management, and there are legal requirements
around that. I know that some of the carbon foresters
(04:56):
actually have investments in predator trapping companies and path management
companies because they need to use those services so frequently.
So again I also know that at the national level,
we're dealing with bigger problems in that space than we've
seen previously, like with larger populations of pigs and deer
(05:17):
and goats.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
He Well, Elizabeth, I need to kind of wrap this up,
so you're effectively saying there's no spray and walk away
sort of yes or no on that one.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yes, there is no spray and walk away. Like forests
need active management, so.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
No spray and walk away. But you can't deny that
we're planting the wrong trees and the wrong place, because
I know and I'm quoting you here yet again it's
important to note this is you saying that when we
talk about forests that have been planted or gone into
the etes in the last few years, that we've only
gone back to the same level of a forestation we
had twenty five years ago. No problems with that one
(05:52):
at all. But twenty five years ago, Elizabeth, we went
planting pine trees on relatively flat or rolling pastoral or
even worse cases, arable land.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
And so I will be interested as more data comes
out in the next couple of months from government about
where forests have actually gone into the landscape. In what
I've seen so far from statistics in New Zealand, a
lot of the land that we're planting on is sheep
and beef country, and there's also been conversion into dairy
(06:24):
and other land uses. And then to be fair, these
luc restrictions are pretty well going to put this to rest.
If it's carbon that's driving it, then those when you
know they're in effect now. But we're seeing that nursery
orders are down by thirty percent for next year, We're
we're definitely going to have planting slow down from what
(06:45):
we're seeing, and we're going to get the opportunity to see, well,
where have trees actually gone? And then where do we
want to put them in the future.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Well, I can tell you where some of them I've gone.
I'll send you a pick when I get off here
of a farm in South Itigo that's gone to trees
that'll make your eyes water, especially if you're a sheep
and beef farmer. Anyhow, I gotta go, Doctor Elizabeth Eg
thanks for sharing some of your time and some of
your memories of nine to eleven.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Thank you,
Doctor Elizabeth hig Is, the chief executive of the Forest
Owners Association. Read a story yesterday about carbon farming being
a poison chalice piqued my interest. We're going to talk
about that, but Elizabeth, before we do, as soon as
you open your mouth, people are going to pick you.
Are an American. It is nine to eleven American time.
Where were you? What were you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Oh? Well, I was about to head into university back
when the attack happened, and glued to the telly for
a few minutes before we had to shoot off, and
then just this eerie silence for the next few days
where no planes were flying. But yeah, it is. It's
still a pretty somber occasion, and certainly, you know, with
(00:46):
the increased levels of violence we're sitting now, it's all.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Very it's very sobering, very sad and sobering. You were
quoted as saying, a few bad actors are giving the sector,
this is the fore street sect a bad name, and
some foresters are having rocks thrown at them. Explain to
me what you meant by that.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Well, when you look at the statistics around who's participating
in carbon markets, I think it's really important to note
that the majority of exotic forestry that's in the emissions
trading scheme can actually be harvested. So there's only six
percent of exotics in the ets that are in the
(01:30):
permanent category. So the perception that there's a whole bunch
of carbon only forests out there and that when you're
driving around the countryside, what you're seeing is all carbon
forest is not true. There's eighty three percent of the
current post eighty nine estate in mpi's most recent a
(01:54):
Forestation and Deforestation Intentions Report is meant to be harvested.
As you look forestry broadly, actually there's a lot of
timber foresters that have carbon as part of their management
portfolio and that are managing their forests effectively. So this
perception of that all the pine that people are seeing
(02:16):
going right now is somebody is just going to walk
away from that and leave it. There may be a
small percentage even of those carbon only foresters that have
told people that's how they're going to manage their forest,
But on the whole, a big proportion of what's going
in is timber forestry, and of that climate forestry, there's
(02:36):
actually a whole bunch of the forests that have specific
management plans to eventually transition into native forests.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Well, I think it's great that the foresters can pick
up some carbon credits along the way. In fact, a
Federated Farmers as saying, is this correct, seventy percent of
the revenue for harvested trees at the moment was coming
from carbon? Is it that high?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I think it's so. I wouldn't. It would depend on
your forest model. I think that's probably a broad generalization.
I think what the carbon income is doing right now
for folks that have timber and carbon is helping us
address margin compression where we're seeing and everybody's experiencing this.
(03:20):
But you know, higher transport costs, higher energy costs, higher
labor cost we've got across the board. You know, it's
not like the log price is going up alongside inflation
and some of the cost increases that we're seeing, and
carbon's helping us kind of meet that gap. I think
(03:41):
where in the future it can also be really helpful
is where farmers want to plant forests. You know, they
may only have one age class or two age classes,
and for farmers and for mari who may be starting
with less in their pocket, it means they can get
some income as the forest is growing that helps them
(04:01):
address some of these management challenges along the way, and
that includes the pass and weeds issues that we're seeing
as well.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Well, let's have a look at those pests and weed issues,
especially the pests. Once again, quite in federated farmers farms
adjoining pine forests were losing lambs to feral pigs as
they came out of the trees and killed the lambs,
and were hearing about unmanaged forests no perhaps fire protection.
(04:29):
They managed in the same way a professional production forestry
block would be managed.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
So they should be. And I think an important point
to make that I've made at a conference earlier this
week is that all production forests, whether it's production for
timber or for timber and carbon or for carbon, all
of them need active management, and there are legal requirements
around that. I know that some of the carbon foresters
(04:56):
actually have investments in predator trapping companies and path management
companies because they need to use those services so frequently.
So again I also know that at the national level,
we're dealing with bigger problems in that space than we've
seen previously, like with larger populations of pigs and deer
(05:17):
and goats.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
He Well, Elizabeth, I need to kind of wrap this up,
so you're effectively saying there's no spray and walk away
sort of yes or no on that one.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yes, there is no spray and walk away. Like forests
need active management, so.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
No spray and walk away. But you can't deny that
we're planting the wrong trees and the wrong place, because
I know and I'm quoting you here yet again it's
important to note this is you saying that when we
talk about forests that have been planted or gone into
the etes in the last few years, that we've only
gone back to the same level of a forestation we
had twenty five years ago. No problems with that one
(05:52):
at all. But twenty five years ago, Elizabeth, we went
planting pine trees on relatively flat or rolling pastoral or
even worse cases, arable land.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
And so I will be interested as more data comes
out in the next couple of months from government about
where forests have actually gone into the landscape. In what
I've seen so far from statistics in New Zealand, a
lot of the land that we're planting on is sheep
and beef country, and there's also been conversion into dairy
(06:24):
and other land uses. And then to be fair, these
luc restrictions are pretty well going to put this to rest.
If it's carbon that's driving it, then those when you
know they're in effect now. But we're seeing that nursery
orders are down by thirty percent for next year, We're
we're definitely going to have planting slow down from what
(06:45):
we're seeing, and we're going to get the opportunity to see, well,
where have trees actually gone? And then where do we
want to put them in the future.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Well, I can tell you where some of them I've gone.
I'll send you a pick when I get off here
of a farm in South Itigo that's gone to trees
that'll make your eyes water, especially if you're a sheep
and beef farmer. Anyhow, I gotta go, Doctor Elizabeth Eg
thanks for sharing some of your time and some of
your memories of nine to eleven.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Thank you,
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