July 13, 2025 • 8 mins
We yarn with a Wairarapa farmer, and one of the country’s leading sheep breeders, about carbon farming, and the future of production forestry and sheep farming.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I enjoy picking the brain of this man, because he's
got a very good one. Derek Daniel. Why a rapp
a sheep breeder from the Whyrary stunt? Derek. I want
to talk about Nordies and Brazilians a wee bit later,
but I want to start if I can, with carbon farming,
because you and I are both hot under the collar
about this one. Federated farmers over the weekend or this
(00:21):
morning put out a report saying fifteen thousand hectares of
productive land food growing land has gone to trees since
the government announcement descend before of last year. Look, I
reckon was shutting the stable door here after the horse
has bolted. What do you think?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Yeah, you're so right. No one in the public service
wants to count up how much land has gone into
trees in the last five or six years, because it's
been not only farmed whole farm sold into trees, but
also lots of trees planted on existing farms. And why
wouldn't you, I mean, this is social welfare in another sense.
(00:59):
Your plant tree, we go to the beach and pullen income.
It's totally unproductive as far as the country's concerned. And
I find an alarming jam. Just yesterday, I've got a
quote on some trees to log and the returns were pitiful.
And so what we're going to see very soon is
(01:21):
any trees planted since nineteen ninety will not be logged.
And the whole export industry, which has been getting six
symbillion a year for New Zealand, that's going to start
falling away. It's not going to be pretty.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Derek Daniel, I worry that in twenty to thirty years
in this country. It may not affect you and I,
but we're going to be up for an ecological disaster.
We are going to be California all over again with
wildfires as a result of these unkept and unkempt forests.
As you say, this is not production forestry that has
been managed properly. This is pines that have been planted
(01:59):
as thickly as possible to get as many carbon credits
as possible.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, look, I totally agree. Right round my farm boundary
at Wiery, seventeen hundred hectares has been planted in the
last two winters, and yeah, we're going to be an
oasis of pasture in the middle of all of that.
Those previous country had been planted in trees or it
was made a bush or scrub around, and the likelihood
(02:26):
of fire, as you say, is just lifting all the
time as our average temperatures. Look down at Ohao, look
in the Nelson area. There's been some pretty dramatic fires
on the porthills in christ Church. It's not a great
future to look forward to it all.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
And I think the other problem facing production forestry is
the slash issue. And like you, it's a six or
seven billion dollar industry. We can't afford to let it slip.
But I think socially there's going to be a lot
more pressure on forestry companies to get rid of the
slash or do something with it. So we don't get
what is happening in Nelson, Tasman at the moment that
(03:07):
will make production forestry I worry totally uneconomic.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I think you're right. I've been thinking that if the
slash that lands in Tolliger Bay landed in Devonport at Takapuna,
that would have been a big change already, and it's
going to make production forestry even less economic, especially for
the landowner. Yeah, it's just crippling. We've allowed inflation to
(03:34):
take costs up within New Zealand, whereas our biggest trading
partner China, they've kept a dampner on inflation, wages, salaries
and they have a huge trade service. We have the
worst trade surplus deficit in the OECD. I mean we
are crippled at the moment. The government is borrowing more
(03:56):
than a million dollars an hour to prop up and
uncusc ownable economy. Where are we going with all of this?
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Okay, let's move on from carbon farming and forestry to
sheep farming, your area of expertise. You've been breeding sheep now, Derek, Well,
it goes back a generation before you or does it
go back two generations before you? At why Rary?
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah, two generations. My grandfather started a register start in
nineteen twenty nine, what's there, ninety six years ago, and
then then my father branched out into performance recording on
hill country almost sixty years ago. So that's the base.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Do you think your grandfather and father will be rolling
in their graves at the thought of you producing and
breeding sheep that don't produce wool? Because y Rary is
famous for its romney sheep, and there of course a
dual purpose breed very good wool producers. You're producing things
called nerdies and Brazilians. That's slightly rude.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Derek, Yeah, well, you know you've got to have a
trademark that's memorable. But Iver put neither camp. I am
still very hopeful that there's deconstruction of wool which will
produce not only a power that's suitable as a pigment carrier,
but also can you can make cellophane similar to cellophane
(05:16):
for food packaging out of this, I'm very hopeful that
in the short to medium term we're going to see
a change in how wool is used and that will
come back to much greater returns for wool on farm.
In the meantime, though, there's no doubt that if you
can run sheep that don't have the hassles of wool,
(05:40):
you can run with a lot less labored content, just
like mini cattle, and you can do other things with
your time. You can do other things, maybe with a
shepherd's house, and you can reduce the cost of production
very significantly.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
A dual purpose sheep like the Romney now outmoded. Have
they been overtaken by compassing and exotics?
Speaker 2 (06:02):
No? No, absolutely not. Farmers may go out and breed
to composites, but they end up coming back to romney
because romney provides the constitution structural soundness that they need.
When you breed out to other breeds, you gradually lose
(06:25):
that hybrid vigor and you need to stabilize with the Romney.
Romney is the bedrock of the New Zealand sheep industry.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
You've been a visionary all your life. What's the future
for sheep farming in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Yeah, very good question, right. I see two major challenges
right at the moment. The first one is to get
big money back into wool. The second is we have
an issue with internal parasites and we're finding ways to
manage that as we go along. I mean, it's the
same as a herbicides with wheat or maize or whatever.
(07:04):
It's something that farmers are having to deal with. Intensive
cattle finishes with young cattle face the same issues with
internal parasites. We'll find a way around it. But they
are the two big challenges to my mind. And I'm
hoping Jamie, that we can get big money back into wool,
sheep farming will suddenly be flavor of the deckad.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Well, I hope you're right. Could it be overtaken by
beef farming, because the prospects, the prospects for beef, especially
over the next two to three years short to medium term,
are pretty good, perhaps better than lamb, certainly better than wool.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Oh yeah, yeah, no, I have to agree with you,
but there's not many soils in New Zealand that can
take one hundred percent beef cattle, especially when you get
a wet winter. Might go fine for one or two
seasons and then you face a soggy winter and lots
of damages done with pugging and so on. So that's
(08:03):
why most hill country farms in New Zealand acts here
are seventy sheep, sometimes down to forty to fifty. Places
like Disbon free of draining soils, but there's always going
to be a place for sheep.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Derek Daniel out of the ware Rapper, why rarely stud
Thanks for some of your time today, and I'm pleased
to hear that you guys and the wire Rapper have
missed out on some of that terrible weather that's at
the top of the South Island. Thanks for your time,
Derek
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, thank you, Jamie both on our
I enjoy picking the brain of this man, because he's
got a very good one. Derek Daniel. Why a rapp
a sheep breeder from the Whyrary stunt? Derek. I want
to talk about Nordies and Brazilians a wee bit later,
but I want to start if I can, with carbon farming,
because you and I are both hot under the collar
about this one. Federated farmers over the weekend or this
(00:21):
morning put out a report saying fifteen thousand hectares of
productive land food growing land has gone to trees since
the government announcement descend before of last year. Look, I
reckon was shutting the stable door here after the horse
has bolted. What do you think?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Yeah, you're so right. No one in the public service
wants to count up how much land has gone into
trees in the last five or six years, because it's
been not only farmed whole farm sold into trees, but
also lots of trees planted on existing farms. And why
wouldn't you, I mean, this is social welfare in another sense.
(00:59):
Your plant tree, we go to the beach and pullen income.
It's totally unproductive as far as the country's concerned. And
I find an alarming jam. Just yesterday, I've got a
quote on some trees to log and the returns were pitiful.
And so what we're going to see very soon is
(01:21):
any trees planted since nineteen ninety will not be logged.
And the whole export industry, which has been getting six
symbillion a year for New Zealand, that's going to start
falling away. It's not going to be pretty.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Derek Daniel, I worry that in twenty to thirty years
in this country. It may not affect you and I,
but we're going to be up for an ecological disaster.
We are going to be California all over again with
wildfires as a result of these unkept and unkempt forests.
As you say, this is not production forestry that has
been managed properly. This is pines that have been planted
(01:59):
as thickly as possible to get as many carbon credits
as possible.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, look, I totally agree. Right round my farm boundary
at Wiery, seventeen hundred hectares has been planted in the
last two winters, and yeah, we're going to be an
oasis of pasture in the middle of all of that.
Those previous country had been planted in trees or it
was made a bush or scrub around, and the likelihood
(02:26):
of fire, as you say, is just lifting all the
time as our average temperatures. Look down at Ohao, look
in the Nelson area. There's been some pretty dramatic fires
on the porthills in christ Church. It's not a great
future to look forward to it all.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
And I think the other problem facing production forestry is
the slash issue. And like you, it's a six or
seven billion dollar industry. We can't afford to let it slip.
But I think socially there's going to be a lot
more pressure on forestry companies to get rid of the
slash or do something with it. So we don't get
what is happening in Nelson, Tasman at the moment that
(03:07):
will make production forestry I worry totally uneconomic.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I think you're right. I've been thinking that if the
slash that lands in Tolliger Bay landed in Devonport at Takapuna,
that would have been a big change already, and it's
going to make production forestry even less economic, especially for
the landowner. Yeah, it's just crippling. We've allowed inflation to
(03:34):
take costs up within New Zealand, whereas our biggest trading
partner China, they've kept a dampner on inflation, wages, salaries
and they have a huge trade service. We have the
worst trade surplus deficit in the OECD. I mean we
are crippled at the moment. The government is borrowing more
(03:56):
than a million dollars an hour to prop up and
uncusc ownable economy. Where are we going with all of this?
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Okay, let's move on from carbon farming and forestry to
sheep farming, your area of expertise. You've been breeding sheep now, Derek, Well,
it goes back a generation before you or does it
go back two generations before you? At why Rary?
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah, two generations. My grandfather started a register start in
nineteen twenty nine, what's there, ninety six years ago, and
then then my father branched out into performance recording on
hill country almost sixty years ago. So that's the base.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Do you think your grandfather and father will be rolling
in their graves at the thought of you producing and
breeding sheep that don't produce wool? Because y Rary is
famous for its romney sheep, and there of course a
dual purpose breed very good wool producers. You're producing things
called nerdies and Brazilians. That's slightly rude.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Derek, Yeah, well, you know you've got to have a
trademark that's memorable. But Iver put neither camp. I am
still very hopeful that there's deconstruction of wool which will
produce not only a power that's suitable as a pigment carrier,
but also can you can make cellophane similar to cellophane
(05:16):
for food packaging out of this, I'm very hopeful that
in the short to medium term we're going to see
a change in how wool is used and that will
come back to much greater returns for wool on farm.
In the meantime, though, there's no doubt that if you
can run sheep that don't have the hassles of wool,
(05:40):
you can run with a lot less labored content, just
like mini cattle, and you can do other things with
your time. You can do other things, maybe with a
shepherd's house, and you can reduce the cost of production
very significantly.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
A dual purpose sheep like the Romney now outmoded. Have
they been overtaken by compassing and exotics?
Speaker 2 (06:02):
No? No, absolutely not. Farmers may go out and breed
to composites, but they end up coming back to romney
because romney provides the constitution structural soundness that they need.
When you breed out to other breeds, you gradually lose
(06:25):
that hybrid vigor and you need to stabilize with the Romney.
Romney is the bedrock of the New Zealand sheep industry.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
You've been a visionary all your life. What's the future
for sheep farming in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Yeah, very good question, right. I see two major challenges
right at the moment. The first one is to get
big money back into wool. The second is we have
an issue with internal parasites and we're finding ways to
manage that as we go along. I mean, it's the
same as a herbicides with wheat or maize or whatever.
(07:04):
It's something that farmers are having to deal with. Intensive
cattle finishes with young cattle face the same issues with
internal parasites. We'll find a way around it. But they
are the two big challenges to my mind. And I'm
hoping Jamie, that we can get big money back into wool,
sheep farming will suddenly be flavor of the deckad.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Well, I hope you're right. Could it be overtaken by
beef farming, because the prospects, the prospects for beef, especially
over the next two to three years short to medium term,
are pretty good, perhaps better than lamb, certainly better than wool.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Oh yeah, yeah, no, I have to agree with you,
but there's not many soils in New Zealand that can
take one hundred percent beef cattle, especially when you get
a wet winter. Might go fine for one or two
seasons and then you face a soggy winter and lots
of damages done with pugging and so on. So that's
(08:03):
why most hill country farms in New Zealand acts here
are seventy sheep, sometimes down to forty to fifty. Places
like Disbon free of draining soils, but there's always going
to be a place for sheep.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Derek Daniel out of the ware Rapper, why rarely stud
Thanks for some of your time today, and I'm pleased
to hear that you guys and the wire Rapper have
missed out on some of that terrible weather that's at
the top of the South Island. Thanks for your time,
Derek
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, thank you, Jamie both on our
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