August 13, 2025 • 6 mins
After a mauling this morning from Mike Hosking Breakfast, Labour’s leader fronts up for the second time today on Newstalk ZB. On the agenda are the Covid Royal Commission public hearings and the prospect of a CGT or wealth tax.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Apologies firstly for the second appearance of this man on
news Talk said be today, not because we don't want
to talk to him, but because we have a food
chain and on news Talk sad be Mike Costing is
at the top of it. This interview, by the way,
was scheduled about two or three weeks ago with labor
Leber leader Chris Hopkins. But Chris, you decided for the
second time this year to go on with Hosking. You
(00:20):
took a bit of a mauling over the COVID inquiry.
Why do you bother?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Oh? Well, you know, look, Mike Costing seems to have
had me blacklisted since the election, so you know, great
to be back on his show again, and fearness to me,
wouldn't you ask? He asks tough questions. Job he certainly does.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
But wouldn't you be better to stick with our n
Z Red radio. Are you going to get an easier
run there? And how many of Hoskin's listeners would ever
vote for you?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Well, I mean, like, I think it's it's ironic, isn't
it that you know now we've got news Talks he'd
be complaining about me going on the show at Mike
costing this morning was saved, but I wasn't publicly accountable enough,
So you know you can't.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
With I want to talk to you today about capital
gains and wealth tax and how that affects farming. But
just on the COVID inquiry, you kind of said you
didn't want to appear at the second public inquiry the
Royal Commission because at risks subjecting you to a torrent abuse,
which you got. Anyhow, this morning on news Talk said
but why not just simply front up for the optics
(01:16):
of nothing else, tick the box, take it on the
chin and get out of there.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Well, I mean, I think the thing is this is
being misrepresented. You know, we have actually been interviewed by
the Royal Commission. I've been interviewed by the First Royal
Commission and the Second Royal Commission, and I've given them
over twenty pages of written question answers and at the
end of that they basically said, look, you've answered all
of the questions that we had. I've said to them,
if they've got follow up questions, I'm more than heavy
(01:41):
to answer them. So the suggestion that we're not appearing
by the Royal Commission is nonsense. The Royal Commission. We
indicate I indicated some concern to them through my representatives
about the way the public hearings were going to go,
as did other former ministers, and they have ultimately decided
that they're not going to do that, and they're not
going to do through the public hearings. You know, I
(02:01):
think it's a bit more complicated, a bit more complex
than it the way it's been represented.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, but you can see the optics on this. They
look terrible for you. Judith Collins called you gutless and hypocritical.
Winston Peters, let me see what he said. The podium
of truth has now become the podium of evasion. See
if I was you, and I'm not you, half the
country or more than half the country thought you got
it right up to the twenty twenty election. Why don't
you just front up to the inquiry and say, look,
(02:26):
there was no manual, there was no blueprint for this,
we did our best, we got it right, and then
we cocked it up.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Well, I mean, of course, you know, Winston Beaters is
welcome to a pear before the Royal Commission himself, he
was a minister involved in the decision making. Although I
do note that the terms of reference that his government
the current government seat for the Royal Commission, specifically excludes
their ability to question Winston Beaters over the decisions that
he was involved in, so people can draw their own
conclusions from that.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Do you think it's fair that Jacinda and Grant Robertson
are running for the Hills. I mean they're not in
public office now, but you and Asha Feral still are well.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
And you know I answer questions every day, Jamie. I'm
here answering questions review I as I might cost can
show this morning, answer and questions from him. Have anyone's
got questions about COVID nineteen they want me to answer publicly?
They get the opportunity to ask me every day.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Well, the COVID Role Commission would love to ask you
some questions. Let's move on to a capital gains or
wealth tax.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Now.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
I discussed this with the Prime Minister yesterday. You are
as as aware as I am that a capital gains
tax would bring in very little initially. So the endgame
for you here has to be a wealth tax.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Look, we haven't set out our policy. I think it's
clear that capital gains wealth tax. Broadening the tax base
is something that the Labour Party is talking about at
the moment. One of the things that we're working through though,
is all the ins and outs of that, all of
the potential impacts that that might have on different groups
that could be affected, to make sure that we design
a policy that's robust and that actually is not going
(03:58):
to have adverse consequences.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Why did you make a captain's call when you took
over from Jacinda not to run with the capital gains tax?
What's changed your mind?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Ultimately? I continued the existing Labor Party position. I didn't
think we were in a position to be able to
adopt a significant new policy like that that close to
the election. But we lost the election ultimately, and I
think when you lose the election, you do have to
listen to the electorate. The electorate said they were looking
for something different from us, and so now we're working
through a place.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Are you in danger of losing the next election? Is
it electoral suicide to go to the people with the
capital gains tax? Or are you going to exempt the
family homes and only kind of go for the rich
and the farmers.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
There's a lot of stuff that we have to work through.
If we were going to announce the capital gains tax,
and so we're working through all the ins and outs
of the different options at the moment.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Okay, how might it work from a farming point of view? Hypothetically,
Come on, give me something.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
That's a fair question. And one of the things that
we've been talking a lot to farmers about, and particularly
the new generation of farmers coming through, is that the
current generation of farmers have had significant capital gains and
the next generation of farmers are looking at a profile
that is very, very different to that. So if you're say,
buying your family farm off your parents, you're not going
(05:12):
to get the same capital gains that they got. And
so is that that is something we have to factor
And it's much harder to buy a farm now than
it was forty or fifty years ago. And so I'm
very very aware of those issues for younger farmers, for
the next generation of farmers, and I don't want to
make those problems worse. And so you know that is
(05:34):
one of the things, Well, you're going.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
To make it a hell of a lot worse with
the capital gains tax.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Well, you're speculating, Jamie and I have an anster policy.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Yet we know you're going to go to the election
with this.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
See what I've just said to you is that the
issues around you know, the next generation of farmers are
very much one of the things that we're thinking about
and the design of any text policy that we take
to the election.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Just finally, when it comes to a capital gains or
wealth text, are you worried that there'll be a run
on the And in terms of the wealthier people in
this country, the wealth creators, the ones who take the risks,
the ones who have a business, the ones who employ people.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Well, I mean I've said before, and I've said it
very clearly at the beginning of the year. One of
the things that I want to see us do as
a country is invest more in productive businesses and have
less of a focus on buying and selling residential property
on the speculative market. And so any text design that
we come up with will have that front and center.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Chris Hipkins on the Country second time today, up to
the Batter's Box on News Talks DV
Apologies firstly for the second appearance of this man on
news Talk said be today, not because we don't want
to talk to him, but because we have a food
chain and on news Talk sad be Mike Costing is
at the top of it. This interview, by the way,
was scheduled about two or three weeks ago with labor
Leber leader Chris Hopkins. But Chris, you decided for the
second time this year to go on with Hosking. You
(00:20):
took a bit of a mauling over the COVID inquiry.
Why do you bother?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Oh? Well, you know, look, Mike Costing seems to have
had me blacklisted since the election, so you know, great
to be back on his show again, and fearness to me,
wouldn't you ask? He asks tough questions. Job he certainly does.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
But wouldn't you be better to stick with our n
Z Red radio. Are you going to get an easier
run there? And how many of Hoskin's listeners would ever
vote for you?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Well, I mean, like, I think it's it's ironic, isn't
it that you know now we've got news Talks he'd
be complaining about me going on the show at Mike
costing this morning was saved, but I wasn't publicly accountable enough,
So you know you can't.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
With I want to talk to you today about capital
gains and wealth tax and how that affects farming. But
just on the COVID inquiry, you kind of said you
didn't want to appear at the second public inquiry the
Royal Commission because at risks subjecting you to a torrent abuse,
which you got. Anyhow, this morning on news Talk said
but why not just simply front up for the optics
(01:16):
of nothing else, tick the box, take it on the
chin and get out of there.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Well, I mean, I think the thing is this is
being misrepresented. You know, we have actually been interviewed by
the Royal Commission. I've been interviewed by the First Royal
Commission and the Second Royal Commission, and I've given them
over twenty pages of written question answers and at the
end of that they basically said, look, you've answered all
of the questions that we had. I've said to them,
if they've got follow up questions, I'm more than heavy
(01:41):
to answer them. So the suggestion that we're not appearing
by the Royal Commission is nonsense. The Royal Commission. We
indicate I indicated some concern to them through my representatives
about the way the public hearings were going to go,
as did other former ministers, and they have ultimately decided
that they're not going to do that, and they're not
going to do through the public hearings. You know, I
(02:01):
think it's a bit more complicated, a bit more complex
than it the way it's been represented.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, but you can see the optics on this. They
look terrible for you. Judith Collins called you gutless and hypocritical.
Winston Peters, let me see what he said. The podium
of truth has now become the podium of evasion. See
if I was you, and I'm not you, half the
country or more than half the country thought you got
it right up to the twenty twenty election. Why don't
you just front up to the inquiry and say, look,
(02:26):
there was no manual, there was no blueprint for this,
we did our best, we got it right, and then
we cocked it up.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Well, I mean, of course, you know, Winston Beaters is
welcome to a pear before the Royal Commission himself, he
was a minister involved in the decision making. Although I
do note that the terms of reference that his government
the current government seat for the Royal Commission, specifically excludes
their ability to question Winston Beaters over the decisions that
he was involved in, so people can draw their own
conclusions from that.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Do you think it's fair that Jacinda and Grant Robertson
are running for the Hills. I mean they're not in
public office now, but you and Asha Feral still are well.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
And you know I answer questions every day, Jamie. I'm
here answering questions review I as I might cost can
show this morning, answer and questions from him. Have anyone's
got questions about COVID nineteen they want me to answer publicly?
They get the opportunity to ask me every day.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Well, the COVID Role Commission would love to ask you
some questions. Let's move on to a capital gains or
wealth tax.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Now.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
I discussed this with the Prime Minister yesterday. You are
as as aware as I am that a capital gains
tax would bring in very little initially. So the endgame
for you here has to be a wealth tax.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Look, we haven't set out our policy. I think it's
clear that capital gains wealth tax. Broadening the tax base
is something that the Labour Party is talking about at
the moment. One of the things that we're working through though,
is all the ins and outs of that, all of
the potential impacts that that might have on different groups
that could be affected, to make sure that we design
a policy that's robust and that actually is not going
(03:58):
to have adverse consequences.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Why did you make a captain's call when you took
over from Jacinda not to run with the capital gains tax?
What's changed your mind?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Ultimately? I continued the existing Labor Party position. I didn't
think we were in a position to be able to
adopt a significant new policy like that that close to
the election. But we lost the election ultimately, and I
think when you lose the election, you do have to
listen to the electorate. The electorate said they were looking
for something different from us, and so now we're working
through a place.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Are you in danger of losing the next election? Is
it electoral suicide to go to the people with the
capital gains tax? Or are you going to exempt the
family homes and only kind of go for the rich
and the farmers.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
There's a lot of stuff that we have to work through.
If we were going to announce the capital gains tax,
and so we're working through all the ins and outs
of the different options at the moment.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Okay, how might it work from a farming point of view? Hypothetically,
Come on, give me something.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
That's a fair question. And one of the things that
we've been talking a lot to farmers about, and particularly
the new generation of farmers coming through, is that the
current generation of farmers have had significant capital gains and
the next generation of farmers are looking at a profile
that is very, very different to that. So if you're say,
buying your family farm off your parents, you're not going
(05:12):
to get the same capital gains that they got. And
so is that that is something we have to factor
And it's much harder to buy a farm now than
it was forty or fifty years ago. And so I'm
very very aware of those issues for younger farmers, for
the next generation of farmers, and I don't want to
make those problems worse. And so you know that is
(05:34):
one of the things, Well, you're going.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
To make it a hell of a lot worse with
the capital gains tax.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Well, you're speculating, Jamie and I have an anster policy.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Yet we know you're going to go to the election
with this.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
See what I've just said to you is that the
issues around you know, the next generation of farmers are
very much one of the things that we're thinking about
and the design of any text policy that we take
to the election.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Just finally, when it comes to a capital gains or
wealth text, are you worried that there'll be a run
on the And in terms of the wealthier people in
this country, the wealth creators, the ones who take the risks,
the ones who have a business, the ones who employ people.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Well, I mean I've said before, and I've said it
very clearly at the beginning of the year. One of
the things that I want to see us do as
a country is invest more in productive businesses and have
less of a focus on buying and selling residential property
on the speculative market. And so any text design that
we come up with will have that front and center.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Chris Hipkins on the Country second time today, up to
the Batter's Box on News Talks DV
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