July 16, 2025 • 5 mins
Labour’s leader discusses bipartisan politics, the unlikely prospect of a Grand Coalition and the right tree in the right place.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Here's the Labor Party leader Chris Hipkins, who joins us
monthly on the Country. Chris, am I engager of becoming
a Labor Party lackey. Having had two of you on
the show this week, Damien O'Connor on Tuesday show. And
I must say Damien spoke very sensibly. And we don't
always agree, Damien and I, but spoke very sensibly about
getting gravel out of our rivers. And I want to
(00:21):
talk to you about the Tasman flooding situation and the
bipartisan approach you and the NATS are taking to funding
future flood and climate victims.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Well, you know, look, we're a very sensible party, Jamie.
So I'm very pleased to hear that Damien's be saying
sensible things on your show. I don't know that I
could ever call you a Labor Party lacky though. I mean,
I could always live in hope, but I'm not quite there.
I'm an optimist, but not that optimist.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
All right, Well, talk to me about bipartisan politics. To
be serious, there's not that big a difference in many
ways between Labor and national There's always been a talk
of a grand coalition, but never the Twains shall meet.
I think that would be a good idea.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I think it would be a terrible idea because ultimately
it would mean that the smaller parties would actually have
more power in that kind of scenario than they do now.
There has to be a competition between the two big
parties for democracy to be vibrant and to make sure
that the small parties don't have too much sway. I
think the problem with the current government is that Christopher
Lucan's basically let the small parties call all the shots.
(01:24):
And you know under MMP you do have to compromise,
but you don't have to let minority parties who only
got eight percent of the vote get to determine the
direction of the country.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
You're referring to what the ex Party or New Zealand first.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
There well either of them to be frank, I mean,
you know, Christopher Luxin has basically taken a back seat
to both David C. Moore Entwoodston Peters in this government.
They seem to be the ones calling the shots.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Mind you, I could the boat, put the boat on
the other foot and direct that back at you would
to party Mari and the Greens be calling the shot.
If you get the treasury benches next year.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
No, absolutely not. You know, recognize that we'd have to
probably you know, under MMP you probably do have to
work with other parties. But there's a difference between making
some concessions to smaller parties in the MMP environment and
letting them run the country. And Christopher Lexan is basically
letting them run the country at the moment.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Mind you, the smaller parties are getting bigger and the
bigger parties are getting smaller.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Well, I think it's too early to draw that conclusion yet.
I mean National's vote is shrinking, that's absolutely right, Labour's
voters going up. So we're at that point in the
political cycle, early in the political cycle actually, where where
there's a sort of a crossover between the two big
parties and so you do sort of find them meeting
in the middle during that time, but that doesn't always
(02:43):
stay that way. Generally one of the bigger parties will
gain support heading into the next election. And you know,
at the moment, look, Labour's the party that's gaining the support,
Nationals the party that's losing it.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Well not if I look at the latest taxpayer union
carrier pole, National nearly thirty four percent, thirty one point
six percent.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yeah, we've started at twenty six. So you know, overall,
if you look at the trend of polling in this
term of parliament, Labour's been going up. National has been
coming down. National started at thirty eight and they're crashing down.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Monngey, you had fifty percent and twenty twenty you've come
a long way down.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
That's right. So I can tell you what happens when
a government starts losing supporting the way the National Party
are now, it doesn't end well for them.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Bipartisan politics, I'm a big fan of it, and I
think Labor and National have to get their heads together
at some stage and come to some agreement on the
age of eligibility for National super I'm like a dog
with a bone on this one, Chris Sipkins. But you're
you're not brave enough to move the age to sixty seven.
You're a bit like Winston.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
No. I don't think that's true, Jamie. We do need
to make sure in New Zealand super annuation sustainable, but
making people who get to the age of sixty five
and who physically can't work anymore wait another two years
before they're allowed to retire potentially to the point where
they'll never actually get to retire. That's not the way
to make superannuation sustainable. And so you know, I think
the National Party are taking a cheap option, which is
(04:06):
all very well for a bunch of wealthy people who
sit behind a desk all day. Not so good if
you actually work hard for a living.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Fair enough, but you could bring it in on a
stage sort of basis. You could take National Super earlier,
but at a lower rate if you were a manual laborer.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
No, I mean there are ways to make sure that
New Zealand Superannuation is affordable and continues to be universal. Unfortunately,
the National Party seem to think that the way of
solving the issues around the affordability of New Zealand Superannuation
is to punish working people carbon farming.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Has the Government got it wrong on this? I call
it closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.
They made an announcement in December of last year. It
hasn't halted at one bit.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
It's taken far too long for them even to get
to the point where they're making an announcement. We said
before the last election that we think communities should have
the power to be able to stop conversions. Getting the
right tree in the right place has to be our goal.
You know, we shouldn't say that there should be no
trees on farms. In fact, many sheep and beef farmers
are doing some forestry as a compliment to the sheep
(05:10):
and beef farming, and that's working very well, and I
don't want to stop them from doing that. But the
whole farm conversions isn't where where we need to be going.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Hey, Chris Sipkins, good to catch up. We don't always agree,
but it's good to agree to disagree on occasions, and
we agree on a few things as well. Thanks for
your time.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Good to talk to you, Jamie,
Here's the Labor Party leader Chris Hipkins, who joins us
monthly on the Country. Chris, am I engager of becoming
a Labor Party lackey. Having had two of you on
the show this week, Damien O'Connor on Tuesday show. And
I must say Damien spoke very sensibly. And we don't
always agree, Damien and I, but spoke very sensibly about
getting gravel out of our rivers. And I want to
(00:21):
talk to you about the Tasman flooding situation and the
bipartisan approach you and the NATS are taking to funding
future flood and climate victims.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Well, you know, look, we're a very sensible party, Jamie.
So I'm very pleased to hear that Damien's be saying
sensible things on your show. I don't know that I
could ever call you a Labor Party lacky though. I mean,
I could always live in hope, but I'm not quite there.
I'm an optimist, but not that optimist.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
All right, Well, talk to me about bipartisan politics. To
be serious, there's not that big a difference in many
ways between Labor and national There's always been a talk
of a grand coalition, but never the Twains shall meet.
I think that would be a good idea.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I think it would be a terrible idea because ultimately
it would mean that the smaller parties would actually have
more power in that kind of scenario than they do now.
There has to be a competition between the two big
parties for democracy to be vibrant and to make sure
that the small parties don't have too much sway. I
think the problem with the current government is that Christopher
Lucan's basically let the small parties call all the shots.
(01:24):
And you know under MMP you do have to compromise,
but you don't have to let minority parties who only
got eight percent of the vote get to determine the
direction of the country.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
You're referring to what the ex Party or New Zealand first.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
There well either of them to be frank, I mean,
you know, Christopher Luxin has basically taken a back seat
to both David C. Moore Entwoodston Peters in this government.
They seem to be the ones calling the shots.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Mind you, I could the boat, put the boat on
the other foot and direct that back at you would
to party Mari and the Greens be calling the shot.
If you get the treasury benches next year.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
No, absolutely not. You know, recognize that we'd have to
probably you know, under MMP you probably do have to
work with other parties. But there's a difference between making
some concessions to smaller parties in the MMP environment and
letting them run the country. And Christopher Lexan is basically
letting them run the country at the moment.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Mind you, the smaller parties are getting bigger and the
bigger parties are getting smaller.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Well, I think it's too early to draw that conclusion yet.
I mean National's vote is shrinking, that's absolutely right, Labour's
voters going up. So we're at that point in the
political cycle, early in the political cycle actually, where where
there's a sort of a crossover between the two big
parties and so you do sort of find them meeting
in the middle during that time, but that doesn't always
(02:43):
stay that way. Generally one of the bigger parties will
gain support heading into the next election. And you know,
at the moment, look, Labour's the party that's gaining the support,
Nationals the party that's losing it.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Well not if I look at the latest taxpayer union
carrier pole, National nearly thirty four percent, thirty one point
six percent.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yeah, we've started at twenty six. So you know, overall,
if you look at the trend of polling in this
term of parliament, Labour's been going up. National has been
coming down. National started at thirty eight and they're crashing down.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Monngey, you had fifty percent and twenty twenty you've come
a long way down.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
That's right. So I can tell you what happens when
a government starts losing supporting the way the National Party
are now, it doesn't end well for them.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Bipartisan politics, I'm a big fan of it, and I
think Labor and National have to get their heads together
at some stage and come to some agreement on the
age of eligibility for National super I'm like a dog
with a bone on this one, Chris Sipkins. But you're
you're not brave enough to move the age to sixty seven.
You're a bit like Winston.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
No. I don't think that's true, Jamie. We do need
to make sure in New Zealand super annuation sustainable, but
making people who get to the age of sixty five
and who physically can't work anymore wait another two years
before they're allowed to retire potentially to the point where
they'll never actually get to retire. That's not the way
to make superannuation sustainable. And so you know, I think
the National Party are taking a cheap option, which is
(04:06):
all very well for a bunch of wealthy people who
sit behind a desk all day. Not so good if
you actually work hard for a living.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Fair enough, but you could bring it in on a
stage sort of basis. You could take National Super earlier,
but at a lower rate if you were a manual laborer.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
No, I mean there are ways to make sure that
New Zealand Superannuation is affordable and continues to be universal. Unfortunately,
the National Party seem to think that the way of
solving the issues around the affordability of New Zealand Superannuation
is to punish working people carbon farming.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Has the Government got it wrong on this? I call
it closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.
They made an announcement in December of last year. It
hasn't halted at one bit.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
It's taken far too long for them even to get
to the point where they're making an announcement. We said
before the last election that we think communities should have
the power to be able to stop conversions. Getting the
right tree in the right place has to be our goal.
You know, we shouldn't say that there should be no
trees on farms. In fact, many sheep and beef farmers
are doing some forestry as a compliment to the sheep
(05:10):
and beef farming, and that's working very well, and I
don't want to stop them from doing that. But the
whole farm conversions isn't where where we need to be going.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Hey, Chris Sipkins, good to catch up. We don't always agree,
but it's good to agree to disagree on occasions, and
we agree on a few things as well. Thanks for
your time.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Good to talk to you, Jamie,
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