The Country 19/11/24: David Seymour talks to Jamie Mackay

It’s a big day for the Act Party leader as the Hīkoi to Parliament hits Wellington. Will he be addressing the protestors, is his Treaty Principles Bill dead in the water?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
He is the man of the hour, David Seymour, this
is a pre record nine thirty. Of course, the hecle're
getting underway or well and truly underway in Wellington. David Seymour,
What chance do you think you have of addressing other
protests this afternoon, good afternoon?

Speaker 2 (00:17):
Basically zero? Because they don't necessarily want to have a dialogue.
I suspect the reason the organizers don't want me to
speak is that they've invested a lot in turning me
into a demon, and if I was to go out
and speak to them, they think this guy's a bit
more reasonable than we were told on TikTok so. I

(00:38):
suspect that's the reason. Could I go out there and
just grab a microphone? Probably not? Would they offer me
a platform or almost certainly not. So as a result,
it's a bit of a shame they've come all this
way and they don't actually want to have a dialogue.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
Look, I admire your pluck, but I think perhaps are
you tilting at windmills, peeing into the northwester or are
you getting actually what you want? Six months or more
of free publicity, building a platform for your supporters for
twenty twenty six.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
Well, there's two views of politicians. One is that everything
they do is in self interest and trying to get votes.
I think I've proven over the years that I'm not
that kind of politician. I'm one who wants to change
the laws iselland only you know. It was not a
particularly politically smart move for an MP who represents an

(01:32):
urban electric I kept them to stand up for licens
fire our owners. But I did it because it was
the right thing to do, and then I figured out
how to sell it and explain it. So you know,
when it comes to the Treaty principles, Bill, I believe
he is Helen needs a conversation about whether or not
our founding documents created a partnership in two groups based

(01:55):
on ethnicity, or whether the treaty principal is Bill create
it's a country in which all people have human rights
by dint of being human. That's the core of the debate,
and I'm not sure whether the New Zealand is truly
ready to have that debate. We shall see, but so far,
I think it's been enormously positive because it's now a

(02:16):
legitimate view to say no, that the treaty makes us
equal instead of the treaty divisor.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
Let's face it, your Treaty Principles bill is dead in
the water. We all know and accept that. But if
hypothetically it got past a second or third reading and
went to a referendum and your hard hearts, do you
think you would get a majority support?

Speaker 2 (02:40):
Well, all invocations so far as it would absolutely get
a majority. The poles that have been done show nearly
two to one support for it. In fact, Paul Goldsmith
was saying he didn't think it should proceed, was on
the radio last week saying he thought it would pass
in a referendum. So yes, I think it would. What's

(03:01):
interesting about this is that I don't accept that it's dead,
but let's just say that. Let's just work out what
that really means. It means that people get to have
a say about their constitutional settings, and then in democracy,
people should get to have a say about the constitutional
rules under which they live. That's why there's so much
opposition to it, even from people who don't think it

(03:24):
will go anywhere. The thing is, it doesn't need to
go far to introduce that idea of all of us
having a say about our constitutional seving.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
Quite a few few people are having a crack at you,
including a former Prime minister and Jenny Shipley, Dame Jenny Shipley,
who said you were inciting civil war.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
No, I think a lot of people are really quite
astonished that Jenny would say that. I've generally had a
relationship with her over the years. But I mean for
a former Prime minister to say that a politician making
a principal argument is saying as starting a civil war
and that's yeah. I think there's possibly had a bad

(04:03):
day there. And again, this is the same Jouny Shipley
who was the director of Mainshill It and work Out
too well, the same Journey Shipley that once said Pacific
Island then would climb through your bathroom window as an MP.
That wasn't really a great thing to say. So maybe
we've just had a bit more learning and inside about
Jenny Shipley.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
You've got your Treaty Principles bill and you're backing it
to the HILP. But does part of you think this
is a bridge too far in the interests of national unity,
I should just drop this, take it on the chin
and move on.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
No, because my bill hasn't created any division. The interests
of national unity were already compromised by years of governments
interpreting the Treaty as a partnership between two groups based
on their ancestry. Once you had that belief that there's
not just human beings in New Zealanders, that there are

(04:59):
two groups of people here in New Zealand, you get
to a stage where a whole lot of people say
to you, you know what if the government says that background,
our ancestries, our most important feature, maybe the government's right.
And once people start thinking that way, you do get
real division. My bill is designed to address the division

(05:21):
that is there. Hasn't created division, but it certainly revealed
the expectations of a lot of people. And you're selling that,
you know, being kind of Fenua, that they have a
different role to play from other people they describe as
tongue to TVT. That's the division that it's already there.
I've just uncovered it.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
Are you scared? Have you had any death threats?

Speaker 2 (05:42):
No? No answers to those two questions. My view is
that ultimately these people protest and aren't going to win
any hearts or minds by being ugly. Tiparty might be
tried that in the Parliament last week and I don't
think I've just alien people from their cause, so you

(06:03):
know it's not only their interests to be ugly.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
Well, we'll see how this afternoon plays out. David Seymour,
thank you very much for some of your time on
what promises to be a very big day for you.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
No worries, Jamie, thank you.