November 25, 2025 • 8 mins
The Prime Minister ponders a peace deal in Ukraine, going on a farm tour with Federated Farmers, getting rid of regional councils, the OCR, KiwiSaver, the age of eligibility for National Super, whether a CGT has any political appeal, and whether Chloe is a genuine contender to be the next Minister of Finance.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Wednesdays on the Country, the Prime Minister kicks off the
show and he's already done a day and a half's
work before he goes to air with US three point thirty.
This morning, Christopher Luxen, you were on a conference call
about Ukraine. I hope you didn't let Trump sell them
down the river.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well, baeously, Jamie, good morning, Good a bit, we'll good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Good to be with you.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I don't know what time of the day it is,
but you know, I'm part of a coalition of the
willing leaders group that gets together to talk about what
we can do to continue to get towards a peaceful situation.
A justin lasting piece actually is what rafter in Ukraine.
What's really encouraging though, is that the parties are talking,
they're engaged, and obviously the European partners have a role
(00:39):
to play. The Americans have been instrumental and kick starting
something off, and obviously his ongoing conversation about the content
of that plan, which we'll need to continue to evolve
in subsequent talks.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Well, from talks with a great leader on the world stage,
depending on which opinion you hold of Donald Trump, to
spending time with a great leader domestically here in New
zeal And, Wayne lanth And President of Federated Farmers. You
and him are on the road next week.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, we are just catching up with farmers in particular
of actually heading to Queenstown today and I'm with farmers
and horticulturists tomorrow actually, which will be good fun and
it's just a good chances, you know, I love getting
out talking to those town halls, are actually getting a
sense of what the issues are for farmers.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
I think we've made tremendous progress.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
We've done a lot of things that the Federated Farmers
had in their election manifesto. That's trying to get rid
of the red tape for farmers, getting the economy moving
again for them in particular, leading us out of the
mess that we've been in.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
And now yes, there's a good chance catch up.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Well you're going to get rid of a lot of
red tape when you get rid of regional councils.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Well, look, I mean, as I said before before Christmas,
we've actually got Rima reform, and of course we're mentioning
a world where we want forty six percent less consents
out there in the system, so that we can actually
get things built in this country. It's the biggest amount
of red tape bureaucracy just jammed this country up.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Obviously, as part of that is a role. You know
what happens with regional councils going forward.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
And you heard us and now test date it. We
think we don't need regional councils. Therefore the elected officials.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Won't be needed.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
And we're actually going to get the district mayors in
those regions to come together and work out what they
do with the resources in the regional councils. But obviously, yeah,
that will be very important.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Are the district councils any smarter than the regional councils?
I know this too much overlap and we've got too
many local body authorities, But have you got this one
the right way round?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
We have because I think you know, you need local
government to be local and that means district level.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
And there might be you know, there's already you would
be aware of it.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
There are some district councils that are saying, hey, listen,
it makes more sense for us to coordinate in a
better way around three waters. It makes better sense for
us to consent to coordinate around building code authorities, all
of those kinds of things. If they wish to amalgamate
and move themselves into that place, that's up to them
to do. And those local communities, but they are having
to work together as we deal with a number of
(03:02):
issues that impact a number of districts that are adjacent
to each other. But look, we just have had district councils,
We've had regional councils, we've got central government. You got
three layers of government, and it's just too much. And
we have to radically simplify the system so that people
can get on get things done on their own property
and you don't need to be dealing with a whole
(03:23):
bunch of different rules.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Oh C this afternoon. I know you can't comment on
it per se, but we're going to get like a
twenty five point or twenty five basis point drop. It
will be welcomed. Do you get the feeling that this
is the end of the ocr cuts in this cycle
and you're happy if it lands at two point twenty
five percent?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Well, again, I actually don't know what the number will be. Obviously,
the four castes are predicting another twenty five basis points.
I think this is the last meeting before the end
of the year where the committee comes together to look
at interest rates before they look at it again in the.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Early new year.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
But again their statement will be very intrying seeing today
to see how they are reading the economy and what
they're focused on, Jamie A lot is what's called mid level,
mid term inflation. So they last report, they sort of
expect inflation to still be helping around that two percent mark,
and as a result, that gives them confidence about you
know that that's key input into the interest rates as well.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Raising key WE saver contributions. That's good. But when are
you going to be brave enough or mature enough as
a nation I'm talking about to raise the age of
eligibility or do you have to wait till Winston Pops's
clogs metaphorically of course.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Well, I think on the on the increasing key WE
savior contributions, I'm really proud of that. That's something we've
wanted to do. We text started it off this year,
moving it from six to eight percent.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
We're doing it gradually.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Some employers and employees have time to adjust. But if
you think about one of the major challenges when over
the last thirty years compared to countries that are wealthier
than us, like Ireland and Australia and others. It's the
increased level of savings and investment and that obviously means
to build out much bigger nest eggs for Kiwi's. You know,
we were looking at some examples of twenty one year
(05:05):
olds that you could have another four hundred thousand dollars
in their account by the time they retire, you know,
which is fantastic because they get the compounding effective interest
and they're in a saving scheme.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
It's really good.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
It gives people follow for a first house and or
and also better retirement and come gives the country actually
pools of capital to invest in infrastructure because we've now
got money saved in the country that needs to get
a return therefore needs to get spend on things like
infrastructure projects in.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Public private partnerships.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
The other thing that you raise about the retirement data,
we'll look at that as we go to the election again.
But I mean, as I've said before, we've gone three
times the election say hey, listens on, you know we
want to have national superannuation.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
We're not changing that.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
We're not means testing it or giving it heavy asset
testing as the Australians do. We think that's an entitlement.
We think everyone deserves to know. That's a certainty. But
we are going to need to augment it with more
Kiwi savings as well. But on just sixty five to
sixty seven, I mean thousand and one and moved to
sixty five, having moved from sixty gradually over a ten
year period. Since two thousand and one, New Zealand men
(06:07):
are living another four years longer and already you've got Australia, Canada,
in UK and sixty seven. All we're asking for is
to move it other two years. I don't think that's unreasonable,
but we'll develop our specific policies.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
We go to the campaign, well, good luck getting that
one past the goalie Ie Winston Peters does you could
always do a chippy of course and just broaden and
inverted commas are the tax space. But it seems to
me that a capital gains tax does have some political
appeal out there.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
I disagree completely everything I've seen as people do not
like us. They really do not like it. And I
was talking to a guy who is a landlord of
a sign writer on the weekend, and he was just saying, like,
the signwriter wants to grow his business. It's been actually
going quite well, and he actually wanted to move into
commercial premises by his own get twice the size. But
(06:56):
of course he's going to get hit with a twenty
eight percent tax. So if you're a commercial worth operating
any commercial premises, if you have a key, we say,
have the investments they have commercial premises, that's where you
get hit. But equally, just think about the tradee that's
saved up and got a fort a batch, or someone
that kids that share a property from granddad. Think about
the mum and dad a rental investment.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
I know all this, Prime Minister, you're talking to the
converted here, but the Poles are telling us that at
least hard Are you disagree?
Speaker 3 (07:24):
We see.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
The other question is two thirds of New Zealanders would accept,
according to the Poles, the capital gains tax if it
applied only to inflation adjusted gains. Well, if we do that,
we're not going to get any capital gains income.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Well there you go, right, Hopkins has said he's not
going to make it inflation adjusted. The second thing is
what's the valuation? So all of a sudden. Now you've
got to do a calculation of a twenty eight percent
tax on a commercial building for your small business, and
you're trying to work out all what was the starting valuation?
So what's hips going to do is send valuers all
around the country to revalue properties and assets and commercial
buildings in this country.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
How did it all work? I mean?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
And he doesn't know, right, he says, we'll sort of
sort it out in government. We'll tell you what's going
to happen. When they get to government. They'll be in
partnership with Chloe Swarbrook who will be the Finance minister,
and sheer one have a scare tactically and she.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Will scare tactics product you frightened me mentioning Chloe is
Finance minister. Barbara Edmonds will be the Finance ministers.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Jamie, if you want to believe that, my friend, that's great.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
I just would say to you, look at the focus
of where.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
The Greens are going to go. They're going to tax
the absolute for Jesus out of the country. And I'm
telling you, happen to open the door the CGT and
what's the track record last time spend more borrow more,
tax more.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
That's what you're getting. They haven't learned up.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Things alright, Christopher Lux and thanks for your time. Keep
up the hard work on behalf of the nation. That's
been a long day for you. Good luck with the
rest of us.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Dave Jamie had a great week.
Wednesdays on the Country, the Prime Minister kicks off the
show and he's already done a day and a half's
work before he goes to air with US three point thirty.
This morning, Christopher Luxen, you were on a conference call
about Ukraine. I hope you didn't let Trump sell them
down the river.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well, baeously, Jamie, good morning, Good a bit, we'll good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Good to be with you.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I don't know what time of the day it is,
but you know, I'm part of a coalition of the
willing leaders group that gets together to talk about what
we can do to continue to get towards a peaceful situation.
A justin lasting piece actually is what rafter in Ukraine.
What's really encouraging though, is that the parties are talking,
they're engaged, and obviously the European partners have a role
(00:39):
to play. The Americans have been instrumental and kick starting
something off, and obviously his ongoing conversation about the content
of that plan, which we'll need to continue to evolve
in subsequent talks.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Well, from talks with a great leader on the world stage,
depending on which opinion you hold of Donald Trump, to
spending time with a great leader domestically here in New
zeal And, Wayne lanth And President of Federated Farmers. You
and him are on the road next week.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, we are just catching up with farmers in particular
of actually heading to Queenstown today and I'm with farmers
and horticulturists tomorrow actually, which will be good fun and
it's just a good chances, you know, I love getting
out talking to those town halls, are actually getting a
sense of what the issues are for farmers.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
I think we've made tremendous progress.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
We've done a lot of things that the Federated Farmers
had in their election manifesto. That's trying to get rid
of the red tape for farmers, getting the economy moving
again for them in particular, leading us out of the
mess that we've been in.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
And now yes, there's a good chance catch up.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Well you're going to get rid of a lot of
red tape when you get rid of regional councils.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Well, look, I mean, as I said before before Christmas,
we've actually got Rima reform, and of course we're mentioning
a world where we want forty six percent less consents
out there in the system, so that we can actually
get things built in this country. It's the biggest amount
of red tape bureaucracy just jammed this country up.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Obviously, as part of that is a role. You know
what happens with regional councils going forward.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
And you heard us and now test date it. We
think we don't need regional councils. Therefore the elected officials.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Won't be needed.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
And we're actually going to get the district mayors in
those regions to come together and work out what they
do with the resources in the regional councils. But obviously, yeah,
that will be very important.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Are the district councils any smarter than the regional councils?
I know this too much overlap and we've got too
many local body authorities, But have you got this one
the right way round?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
We have because I think you know, you need local
government to be local and that means district level.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
And there might be you know, there's already you would
be aware of it.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
There are some district councils that are saying, hey, listen,
it makes more sense for us to coordinate in a
better way around three waters. It makes better sense for
us to consent to coordinate around building code authorities, all
of those kinds of things. If they wish to amalgamate
and move themselves into that place, that's up to them
to do. And those local communities, but they are having
to work together as we deal with a number of
(03:02):
issues that impact a number of districts that are adjacent
to each other. But look, we just have had district councils,
We've had regional councils, we've got central government. You got
three layers of government, and it's just too much. And
we have to radically simplify the system so that people
can get on get things done on their own property
and you don't need to be dealing with a whole
(03:23):
bunch of different rules.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Oh C this afternoon. I know you can't comment on
it per se, but we're going to get like a
twenty five point or twenty five basis point drop. It
will be welcomed. Do you get the feeling that this
is the end of the ocr cuts in this cycle
and you're happy if it lands at two point twenty
five percent?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Well, again, I actually don't know what the number will be. Obviously,
the four castes are predicting another twenty five basis points.
I think this is the last meeting before the end
of the year where the committee comes together to look
at interest rates before they look at it again in the.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Early new year.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
But again their statement will be very intrying seeing today
to see how they are reading the economy and what
they're focused on, Jamie A lot is what's called mid level,
mid term inflation. So they last report, they sort of
expect inflation to still be helping around that two percent mark,
and as a result, that gives them confidence about you
know that that's key input into the interest rates as well.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Raising key WE saver contributions. That's good. But when are
you going to be brave enough or mature enough as
a nation I'm talking about to raise the age of
eligibility or do you have to wait till Winston Pops's
clogs metaphorically of course.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Well, I think on the on the increasing key WE
savior contributions, I'm really proud of that. That's something we've
wanted to do. We text started it off this year,
moving it from six to eight percent.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
We're doing it gradually.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Some employers and employees have time to adjust. But if
you think about one of the major challenges when over
the last thirty years compared to countries that are wealthier
than us, like Ireland and Australia and others. It's the
increased level of savings and investment and that obviously means
to build out much bigger nest eggs for Kiwi's. You know,
we were looking at some examples of twenty one year
(05:05):
olds that you could have another four hundred thousand dollars
in their account by the time they retire, you know,
which is fantastic because they get the compounding effective interest
and they're in a saving scheme.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
It's really good.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
It gives people follow for a first house and or
and also better retirement and come gives the country actually
pools of capital to invest in infrastructure because we've now
got money saved in the country that needs to get
a return therefore needs to get spend on things like
infrastructure projects in.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Public private partnerships.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
The other thing that you raise about the retirement data,
we'll look at that as we go to the election again.
But I mean, as I've said before, we've gone three
times the election say hey, listens on, you know we
want to have national superannuation.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
We're not changing that.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
We're not means testing it or giving it heavy asset
testing as the Australians do. We think that's an entitlement.
We think everyone deserves to know. That's a certainty. But
we are going to need to augment it with more
Kiwi savings as well. But on just sixty five to
sixty seven, I mean thousand and one and moved to
sixty five, having moved from sixty gradually over a ten
year period. Since two thousand and one, New Zealand men
(06:07):
are living another four years longer and already you've got Australia, Canada,
in UK and sixty seven. All we're asking for is
to move it other two years. I don't think that's unreasonable,
but we'll develop our specific policies.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
We go to the campaign, well, good luck getting that
one past the goalie Ie Winston Peters does you could
always do a chippy of course and just broaden and
inverted commas are the tax space. But it seems to
me that a capital gains tax does have some political
appeal out there.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
I disagree completely everything I've seen as people do not
like us. They really do not like it. And I
was talking to a guy who is a landlord of
a sign writer on the weekend, and he was just saying, like,
the signwriter wants to grow his business. It's been actually
going quite well, and he actually wanted to move into
commercial premises by his own get twice the size. But
(06:56):
of course he's going to get hit with a twenty
eight percent tax. So if you're a commercial worth operating
any commercial premises, if you have a key, we say,
have the investments they have commercial premises, that's where you
get hit. But equally, just think about the tradee that's
saved up and got a fort a batch, or someone
that kids that share a property from granddad. Think about
the mum and dad a rental investment.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
I know all this, Prime Minister, you're talking to the
converted here, but the Poles are telling us that at
least hard Are you disagree?
Speaker 3 (07:24):
We see.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
The other question is two thirds of New Zealanders would accept,
according to the Poles, the capital gains tax if it
applied only to inflation adjusted gains. Well, if we do that,
we're not going to get any capital gains income.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Well there you go, right, Hopkins has said he's not
going to make it inflation adjusted. The second thing is
what's the valuation? So all of a sudden. Now you've
got to do a calculation of a twenty eight percent
tax on a commercial building for your small business, and
you're trying to work out all what was the starting valuation?
So what's hips going to do is send valuers all
around the country to revalue properties and assets and commercial
buildings in this country.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
How did it all work? I mean?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
And he doesn't know, right, he says, we'll sort of
sort it out in government. We'll tell you what's going
to happen. When they get to government. They'll be in
partnership with Chloe Swarbrook who will be the Finance minister,
and sheer one have a scare tactically and she.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Will scare tactics product you frightened me mentioning Chloe is
Finance minister. Barbara Edmonds will be the Finance ministers.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Jamie, if you want to believe that, my friend, that's great.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
I just would say to you, look at the focus
of where.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
The Greens are going to go. They're going to tax
the absolute for Jesus out of the country. And I'm
telling you, happen to open the door the CGT and
what's the track record last time spend more borrow more,
tax more.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
That's what you're getting. They haven't learned up.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Things alright, Christopher Lux and thanks for your time. Keep
up the hard work on behalf of the nation. That's
been a long day for you. Good luck with the
rest of us.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Dave Jamie had a great week.
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