January 26, 2025 • 8 mins
We catch up with an iconic and controversial forestry commentator — some of his colleagues even call him a polymath. Dennis is a director of the New Zealand-based international forest industry advisory firm, DANA Limited. We talk "right tree, right place" and discuss the place of carbon farming in forestry.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Time to talk about of forestry and carbon farming. Yes,
that evil word here on the country today. To illuminate
me and to fill in all my knowledge gaps when
it comes to forestry and carbon farming. I've got this
guy on board. His name is Dennis Neilson. He's a
forestry entrepreneur. He's a fellow of the New Zealand Institute
of Forestry and he's the chair of the New Zealand
(00:21):
Timber Museum Trust. Hey, Dennis, I just want to start
by saying great to get you on the show. I
think we chatted briefly at Field Days a couple of
years ago. You link me in on your email threads
which go to all and sundry and even your own
forestry mates call you a polymath, and you realize that
polymath is a person of wide knowledge or learning, in
(00:43):
other words, a know all. Are you a no all? Dennis?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Well, I've progressed because until recently my forestry friends and
you from time to time called me the failed forester
for moor Paris. So I progressed to a polymath not
to know all. But I am seventy five years old
and I have been around a little bit, and I
(01:07):
have opinions about on anything and everything, including forestry and
including carbon farming.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Did the government make a mistake by introducing rules restricting
tree planting, because you know, you and I have lots
of debates online about this. I'm not a big fan
of carbon farming taking over good pastoral land. My position
is clear.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
My position is clear, and it's really not to do
with forestry or farming. It's to do with the philosophy
of I think it was Gordon Coates. I might be wrong,
but the original Reform National Party leader who wrote a
manifesto of four or five bullet points in nineteen thirty six,
and two of them are very important. One is minimal
(01:49):
government and one is the sanctity of private land ownership.
And that's why I philosophically would like to see minimum
restrict on rural land juice or urban land news for
that matter. It's not a forester or farming things. It's
a sanctity of private ownership.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
But hang on, Dennis, under your regime, we would become
the pine plantation of the South Pacific, and we would
have urban sprawl everywhere, and places like Pokacoe and out
western Auckland, all that wonderful farmland out at QMU. There
would all go into houses.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yes, but there's no restrictions on subdivision development on the
onion fields of South Auckland or anywhere else except I
think there are dollar planes. I know Jamie that that
is a philosophical approach, and sure there probably has to
be some government intervention on some of the areas of
land uice, but I think the governor's overreached on the occasion.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Now, Dennis Neilson, forestry is now officially our fourth biggest industry.
It's just slipped off the pace a wee bit from horticulture.
They were sort of tied third equal behind dairy and
red meat. Forestry is very, very important. It's a huge
export industry for US. Is carbon farming still a thing?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
I believe there's a lot of misunderstanding about the word
carbon farming. I don't know of any people that are planting,
certainly overseas organizations. This is, in my opinion, certainly overseas organizations,
private family offices, high netwealth individuals, big companies that are
(03:37):
here from overseas. I don't know anyone that's carbon farming
for carbon. They are growing trees for various reasons including
security of their wealth, diversity by spreading to different countries,
and to be part of what is really one of
two or three of the best countries in which to
(03:59):
grow medium to fast growing, medium quality softward logs for
harvesting and sale of logs. And there may or may
not be some New Zealanders who are involved in carbon farming,
but the word carbon farming is heavily misused, heavily overused,
and so that's that's my opinion. They're the ETS We
(04:21):
can talk about that. There is some advantages or there
has been some advantages in people are investing in trees
to grow for harvesting and logs as well as for carbon.
There has been an advantage in that, but that's not
the primary motivation or even the secondary or third tertiary
(04:42):
motivation for overseas investors I know to be to invest
in forests and New Zealand. The carbon is almost incidental.
In fact, many people, a number of big organizations of
private companies from Europe especially, they are either they're not
even cashing in their carbon credits, they may or may
(05:04):
not be registered in the ETS. Carbon is inconsequential to
their decision to invest in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Okay, a couple questions to finish on. Is the ETS
the dog's breakfast? I think I know the answer.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
It's become more messy. It's been long standing, it's been
here from two thousand and seven. It is still the
only government certified ETS which allows for sequestration credits for
carbon for trees. But it's becoming a murky murky pool,
if not a swamp, because of hugely expensive regulations now
(05:41):
set out by the Minister MPI and particularly for the
registration and now fourteen dollars per hectare for a year,
which is just out outlandishly high for what could be
done on a spreaschheet.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Yeah, they tell me their new flash computer system worth
ninety million bucks something like that doesn't even work.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Well. I've had reliable sources tell me that A're in
the game. They've been waiting for more than two years
to get credits and they're still not a ninety million dollars.
And I've been told by arrival sources at the same
work could be done on the nextel spreadsheet. So that's
the Nova pay fiasco which is now unfortunately clouding the
(06:25):
future of the ETS in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Hey, Dennis Nilsen, final question for you. If you had
your way, you'd be planting pine trees everywhere. What about
the death of rural New Zealand, especially some of the
smaller isolated communities.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
I wouldn't be planting pine trees everywhere that the pine
tree planning has been blamed I think wrongly and overly
by various organizations and leaders. I can give you an example,
the Alliance Freezing where it's closed and Timaru was it
last year, six hundred jobs lost. It was blamed on forestry.
(07:02):
Reality was ten or fifteen years before it closed. There
was one hundred and eight thousand hectares of pine trees
in that region the catchment when it closed there was
ten thousand hectares less. And there's good reasons for that.
Night Tahoo logging forests and turning to dairy farms. But
forestry was blamed. So often forestry is blamed. The depopulation
(07:25):
of rural centers is happening globally. I travel a lot
and I read a lot that's happening. And whether it's
France and Belgium and Holland and the United States, it's
happening everywhere. Deeppopulation, no one else except the New Zealand
as a blamed on radiot of pine trees. But it's happening,
and it's huge, and it's sad, but it's inevitable and
it will continue.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
What's the base bent forestry or bitcoin?
Speaker 2 (07:53):
It's pegging a pot and a toss of a coin
for both. If I can use that word, I was
really Latin bitcoin. I only bought it six thousand dollars
and at one hundred and five thousand dollars today. Side
say bitcoin going you with if you want to go too,
nnged us going with your eyes wide open, and the
same with bitcoin, it could fly to a million dollars
(08:16):
or you can go to nothing and nnged us can
do the same. Go into jed U's ets with whether
your farmers or anyone else with their eyes open and
seek solid advice.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Dennis Nielsen, thanks very much for your time today. It's
been great to talk to a polymath of forestry.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Thank you, Jamie
Time to talk about of forestry and carbon farming. Yes,
that evil word here on the country today. To illuminate
me and to fill in all my knowledge gaps when
it comes to forestry and carbon farming. I've got this
guy on board. His name is Dennis Neilson. He's a
forestry entrepreneur. He's a fellow of the New Zealand Institute
of Forestry and he's the chair of the New Zealand
(00:21):
Timber Museum Trust. Hey, Dennis, I just want to start
by saying great to get you on the show. I
think we chatted briefly at Field Days a couple of
years ago. You link me in on your email threads
which go to all and sundry and even your own
forestry mates call you a polymath, and you realize that
polymath is a person of wide knowledge or learning, in
(00:43):
other words, a know all. Are you a no all? Dennis?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Well, I've progressed because until recently my forestry friends and
you from time to time called me the failed forester
for moor Paris. So I progressed to a polymath not
to know all. But I am seventy five years old
and I have been around a little bit, and I
(01:07):
have opinions about on anything and everything, including forestry and
including carbon farming.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Did the government make a mistake by introducing rules restricting
tree planting, because you know, you and I have lots
of debates online about this. I'm not a big fan
of carbon farming taking over good pastoral land. My position
is clear.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
My position is clear, and it's really not to do
with forestry or farming. It's to do with the philosophy
of I think it was Gordon Coates. I might be wrong,
but the original Reform National Party leader who wrote a
manifesto of four or five bullet points in nineteen thirty six,
and two of them are very important. One is minimal
(01:49):
government and one is the sanctity of private land ownership.
And that's why I philosophically would like to see minimum
restrict on rural land juice or urban land news for
that matter. It's not a forester or farming things. It's
a sanctity of private ownership.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
But hang on, Dennis, under your regime, we would become
the pine plantation of the South Pacific, and we would
have urban sprawl everywhere, and places like Pokacoe and out
western Auckland, all that wonderful farmland out at QMU. There
would all go into houses.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yes, but there's no restrictions on subdivision development on the
onion fields of South Auckland or anywhere else except I
think there are dollar planes. I know Jamie that that
is a philosophical approach, and sure there probably has to
be some government intervention on some of the areas of
land uice, but I think the governor's overreached on the occasion.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Now, Dennis Neilson, forestry is now officially our fourth biggest industry.
It's just slipped off the pace a wee bit from horticulture.
They were sort of tied third equal behind dairy and
red meat. Forestry is very, very important. It's a huge
export industry for US. Is carbon farming still a thing?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
I believe there's a lot of misunderstanding about the word
carbon farming. I don't know of any people that are planting,
certainly overseas organizations. This is, in my opinion, certainly overseas organizations,
private family offices, high netwealth individuals, big companies that are
(03:37):
here from overseas. I don't know anyone that's carbon farming
for carbon. They are growing trees for various reasons including
security of their wealth, diversity by spreading to different countries,
and to be part of what is really one of
two or three of the best countries in which to
(03:59):
grow medium to fast growing, medium quality softward logs for
harvesting and sale of logs. And there may or may
not be some New Zealanders who are involved in carbon farming,
but the word carbon farming is heavily misused, heavily overused,
and so that's that's my opinion. They're the ETS We
(04:21):
can talk about that. There is some advantages or there
has been some advantages in people are investing in trees
to grow for harvesting and logs as well as for carbon.
There has been an advantage in that, but that's not
the primary motivation or even the secondary or third tertiary
(04:42):
motivation for overseas investors I know to be to invest
in forests and New Zealand. The carbon is almost incidental.
In fact, many people, a number of big organizations of
private companies from Europe especially, they are either they're not
even cashing in their carbon credits, they may or may
(05:04):
not be registered in the ETS. Carbon is inconsequential to
their decision to invest in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Okay, a couple questions to finish on. Is the ETS
the dog's breakfast? I think I know the answer.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
It's become more messy. It's been long standing, it's been
here from two thousand and seven. It is still the
only government certified ETS which allows for sequestration credits for
carbon for trees. But it's becoming a murky murky pool,
if not a swamp, because of hugely expensive regulations now
(05:41):
set out by the Minister MPI and particularly for the
registration and now fourteen dollars per hectare for a year,
which is just out outlandishly high for what could be
done on a spreaschheet.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Yeah, they tell me their new flash computer system worth
ninety million bucks something like that doesn't even work.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Well. I've had reliable sources tell me that A're in
the game. They've been waiting for more than two years
to get credits and they're still not a ninety million dollars.
And I've been told by arrival sources at the same
work could be done on the nextel spreadsheet. So that's
the Nova pay fiasco which is now unfortunately clouding the
(06:25):
future of the ETS in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Hey, Dennis Nilsen, final question for you. If you had
your way, you'd be planting pine trees everywhere. What about
the death of rural New Zealand, especially some of the
smaller isolated communities.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
I wouldn't be planting pine trees everywhere that the pine
tree planning has been blamed I think wrongly and overly
by various organizations and leaders. I can give you an example,
the Alliance Freezing where it's closed and Timaru was it
last year, six hundred jobs lost. It was blamed on forestry.
(07:02):
Reality was ten or fifteen years before it closed. There
was one hundred and eight thousand hectares of pine trees
in that region the catchment when it closed there was
ten thousand hectares less. And there's good reasons for that.
Night Tahoo logging forests and turning to dairy farms. But
forestry was blamed. So often forestry is blamed. The depopulation
(07:25):
of rural centers is happening globally. I travel a lot
and I read a lot that's happening. And whether it's
France and Belgium and Holland and the United States, it's
happening everywhere. Deeppopulation, no one else except the New Zealand
as a blamed on radiot of pine trees. But it's happening,
and it's huge, and it's sad, but it's inevitable and
it will continue.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
What's the base bent forestry or bitcoin?
Speaker 2 (07:53):
It's pegging a pot and a toss of a coin
for both. If I can use that word, I was
really Latin bitcoin. I only bought it six thousand dollars
and at one hundred and five thousand dollars today. Side
say bitcoin going you with if you want to go too,
nnged us going with your eyes wide open, and the
same with bitcoin, it could fly to a million dollars
(08:16):
or you can go to nothing and nnged us can
do the same. Go into jed U's ets with whether
your farmers or anyone else with their eyes open and
seek solid advice.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Dennis Nielsen, thanks very much for your time today. It's
been great to talk to a polymath of forestry.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Thank you, Jamie
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