December 8, 2024 • 12 mins
Is a former Labour Cabinet Minister and Minister of Forestry who has a crack at the government's new forestry/carbon farming regulations announced last week. Plus, while we had him on air, we asked about his thoughts on the state of NZ politics.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good to hear from this man. When I was talking
to Toby Williams from Federated Farmers on Friday's show. Stuart Nash,
former Minister of Forestry. Of course, his great grandfather was
a prime minister for New Zealand. Some people said, Stuart
Nash that you could have been a future prime minister.
Where did you go wrong?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I don't know what I went wrong, mate. I fatly
enjoyed my time in politics at five and the hockey's
and cabinet mates and significant changes, and now I'm taking
the business world. I'm loving it.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
I always thought you were in the wrong party. I'm
not the first one who ever said that to you.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
If I had a dollar every time someone said that
to me, I would never have needed to bun rate.
But you know, look I was probably to the right
of Labor and to the left of National so you
know I sat somewhere in the pragmatic middle.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
I think you're sitting in there with your mates Winston
and Shane in the middle.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Well, you know that this is the interesting thing. So
I was listening to your show and I had fed
Farmer's guy came on and say what the government has
done is absolutely fantastic and I could not believe this,
you know, not even labor. We're going to go so
far and have central government dictate what farmers could and
could not do with your land. We're going to leave
it to territorial authorities to make those decisions in consultation
(01:12):
with the community. Yeah, but the.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Government has Stuart Nash, the government had to do something
because the relentless march of carbon farming was taking over
a really good productive land that should be growing livestock
or crops.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
One hundred percent agree with that, and that's why, you know,
when I was the Minister of Forestry, we came up
with this plan. Every farm had to every forest, carbon
or otherwise had to be managed. But the thing is is,
you know, you're making an assumption now that the government
knows best around what farmers should be doing with your land.
So are you saying are you saying that the farmer
doesn't know what's best for his land because of her land?
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Oh no, I'm not saying that at all. But what
I don't want to see is blanket planting of pines
on farms full stock.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I don't want to see that either, And the vast
majority of farmers that I know. I don't want to
see that either, so very you know.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Stuart Stewart, it's happening out there. That is the problem.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
So farmers, so you know, we all know this. Let's
be honest. It's the bloody elfin Groom. It always has
been farmers farm for capital gains, right. I mean I
was talking to a farmer the other day and they're
developing a ship at Hawk's Bay that has no wool
because he's just sick to death of paying money to
share his sheep and make absolutely no money from it.
(02:26):
So the only reason he's paying is he's sharing a
sheep is for animal welfare. It's not for eytime. It's
and that's another story. That's snaps of disaster all it's
such a good product. But that's another story.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
We need to Stewart. We need to differentiate, don't we.
And you know a hell of a lot more about
forestry than I do, between production forestry and carbon farming,
because I think the carbon credits are a good add on,
another bite to the cherry for the forestry industry, and
goodness knows it needs it at the moment because time's
a bit but tough out there for the foresters.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
So to some farmers, I mean, you know a number
of farms that I used to speak to when arsked
Minister of Forestry and also just the Minister of other things.
Was these guys understood that there are parts of the
farm which we were uneconomic from a pastoral farming perspective,
too far away from a production forestry perspective. The land
was no good. So just planted up and you know,
(03:19):
you do it from a conservation perspective. But the thing
Chamber that I always said is it had to be
managed in a way that allowed the transition from radiata
to native. You just cannot have blanket planting. And the
reason I said this, and I went round the country sidingess,
is because radiator in a plantation setting without management has
a life of about eighty to one hundred and twenty years.
(03:40):
So if you just plant a hillside at twelve hundred
stems per hectare, you are inviting an ecological disaster in
eighty years time. Now, you know that the farmers that
I that I know and I respect, and you know,
they knew they weren't going to be around in eighty years,
but they wanted their farms to be around an eighty
ye years. So you manage these forests in a way
(04:02):
that allowed a transition from radiator to indigenous. It was
reasonably easy to do, but it took a bit of management.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah it hang on, no, no, no, getting to an
indigenous forest is not easy, Stewart. Now, you know as
well as I do, and I've got experience at the
coal face on this one. Natives are bloody hard to establish.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Well, it depends on where you are. I mean, if
you if you've got a farm beside her, if you're
planting radiator beside a blocker native, then there's no problems whatsoever.
It's very easier. But what you've got to do. This
is why this is when we talk about the managing
of carbon vice. So there's there's a chap. Actually, if
he's got a decent spread just out of Wellington and
(04:42):
he's got all these different regimes, it's quite one of
these serendipitous sort of moments where so he's got never
planted production, but they're proved live stocking, so you still
get your carbon credits off them, and my god, the
native regeneration through those is fantastic. This is the other thing.
If you're just planting twelve hundred cents a hectare, you're
getting no later than possible to possible to anything outside
(05:07):
of radiator. But you prune them and get lightwell from there,
then it's not difficult to do. There's going to be
a little bit of management or a little bit of
seeding if you're far, far far away from a native forest.
But most farms aren't, you know what I'm saying. And
most of the really dodgy land on farms, if it's
gullies or it's steep, and a lot of it is
near native stuff anyway, So I'm generalizing you, Jamie, you
(05:31):
know that. But all I'm saying is if a forest,
if a carbon forest is managed well with a silver
cultural regime that allows natives to come through, and what
you do is you can't have any carbon off those
pine trees after fifty Therefore, it promotes an active management.
As you transition from carbon from you from the radiator
through carbon from the natives, then that is okay. But
(05:53):
I don't think there's anyone, no forester, no farmer, that
wants to see highly productive land or even mildly productive land.
You know, three and four planted and radiator that is
not a good use of productive land. We all agree.
What we don't agree is how you manage these bloody
carbon vil But as.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
It stands at the moment, under this new government policy,
they're effectively driving production forestry to the hills. You can't
plant on land use classification one to five. You're very
limited on LUC six. So it's seven eight nine, that's steep,
it's far away from ports, it's non economic.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
It's unbelievable that it just shows that they actually have
a lack of knowledge around how the farming sicker works.
But then to have big farmers come out and sa,
oh yeah, this is bloody wonderful. I wonder if that
guy that actually spoken to his members you know that
I won't name them, but there's a number of innovative
farms that I spoke to that said, yeah, you know,
on our farm, it is a mixture of pastoral and
(06:56):
production forestry and a little bit of carbon forestry, and
we're retired some stuff and native you know, we all
know this. Every farmer listened to the show will know
that there are parts of the farm that are more
suitable for other land uses than you know that not
every part of the farm, you can have a sheep,
But to say you can't have forestry, sorry, you can't
(07:19):
have forestry on classes four and five. I mean, seriously
tell us that about.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
So is this twenty five percent threshold only allowing twenty
five percent of the farm to be planted. According to
doctor Elizabeth Higue from the Forest Owners Association, she says,
that's like just an arbitrary pig and the sand threshold.
You'd agree with that.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I would agree with that. I mean, you know, very
very briefly, I was acting Minister of Land Information and
the Land Information Portfolio at the time. The ship still
does has the Overseas in Bastment Act. And what I
did is when people were looking to buy farms, planted
the forestry, or even just buy a farm to farm,
(08:02):
I would make sure that what they had to have
was OS management plan put in place. But you know,
just saying twenty five percent, well, so you know, we
all know, every single listener knows that a farm in
the White cout is different than the farm and Central
Hawk's pay which is different from my farm and tied
aftery right farms. Very you just can't have an arbitrary number.
(08:23):
It says five percent it's got to be bespoke, depending
on the farm itself.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Just while we've got you, Stuart Nash, politics, Are you
missing it?
Speaker 2 (08:34):
I list it occasionally. And the reason I say that
is when I hear people on the radio say dumb things.
I think should I wish I could. I wish I
could get on the radio down to that. But by
and large made up back in the business. Well, I
spend more time with my families. Who got my my
family have got my weekend back. And I would hate
to be an opposition at the moment and be a
complete another waste of time. So you know, we make
(08:56):
a difference in its in cabinet, is in government. But
but you know where I miss it is you know
some of the decisions that are being made at the moment.
I don't think him the best interests of New Zealand.
I really don't.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
I talk about saying dumb things. Have you caught up
with the Greens alternative emissions reduction plan made?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
I heard it on the radio. I thought, why Jesus,
why doesn't she stick to walk on Central on the
issues that they've got in that electric You know, I
think I'm be honest with you, mate, I had a
lot of time for James Shaw. I thought he was
a sensible, pragmatic man, and I know a lot of
your listeners didn't agree with me on that, But he
was very well reasoned, very well researched, and he could
(09:37):
He knew the missions training game with the back of
your hand. When I was Minister of Fisheries, I did
a lot of work for Janie Sage. You know I
loved their predator free stuff. I think that's vital. You
know that he's a step for your mate. If if
we got rid of the possums, apparently every single possum
in New Zealand overnight would meet our mission scheme bait.
They fart, may belch, and they eat that much biomass
(09:58):
that's having much impact. But when I hear the Greens
emissions trading plan, I go, oh my god, that comes
such a long way from James. I don't know where
the Greens are out at the moment. I think you
know that i'd probably be there in twenty twenty six.
I'd bet a slight one hundred that they're gone by
twenty twenty nine.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
They're in La La Land. Now. I know you and
Chippy had your differences, but I do feel sorry for him,
and I'm not even sure he'll be leading Labor into
the twenty twenty six election. But I'm thinking if his
only choices now that he's ruled out Winston, and I
don't think Winston would go there again anyhow, if his
only choices are the Greens and to party Maury, he
has no show.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Well, this is where I differ from you. So where
I think Lucklan's gotten so much trouble is that he
was an inexperienced politician that was done over. I mean,
you know Cale McKee's gun reform, it's just bloody crazy
and there's treiny principles Bill, I mean that didn't need
to be on the agenda. What you've got in Chippy
is a very very experienced politician, a very experienced cabinet
(10:58):
minister that I know would not be done over in
any coalition agreement like Luxelm was done over by Act.
And so what you've got there is I think I
think it's actually time for a Prime minister who does
bring such a high level of experience. Now, I know
that number of your listeners won't agree with me on this,
but I was in Parliament with Jeffy from two thousand
(11:19):
and eight. We're in cabinet together for five and a
half years. He's a guy that actually understands how things work,
whereas LUs and you had a guy there who came
in after three years, got completely done over. And I
know I would if you ask any of your listeners
what is the vision for this national governor, I'd give
them a hundred bucks if they could tell me. I
don't know what the vision for this national government is?
(11:40):
Are you, Jamie? Now?
Speaker 1 (11:41):
You've forgotten one politician who's got lots of experience. He's
been in there since nineteen seventy eight. Ever thought about
him as a prime minister.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
I have got an immense amount of respect for Winston Peters,
I really do. I think he's a good man. I
count him as a personal friend. I think there's a
degree of bringas's in there, and I think there's an
opportunity there is. You know, Labor at the moment isn't resonating.
They need to come out and say no to this
wealth tax. They just need to knock that on the
head now. But National also wasn't resonating. You know, you've
(12:10):
got an unpopular prime minister. You remember John Key, a
formidable politician. Two you know, a year into his first term.
I mean that guy was was polling higher than anyone.
Well Luxon is you know, you've got the leader of
the opposition apparently polling higher than Luckson. He's just not
resonating my my networks TELM is not really enjoying it.
And it's common consensus once my mates that that Nicholas
(12:32):
just out of her depth. She really is.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Well, there we go our food for thought, Stuart Nash.
Always good to catch up, keep keep in touch. I
enjoyed you, i WM, I get you back
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Thanks Amy, I love to come back.
Good to hear from this man. When I was talking
to Toby Williams from Federated Farmers on Friday's show. Stuart Nash,
former Minister of Forestry. Of course, his great grandfather was
a prime minister for New Zealand. Some people said, Stuart
Nash that you could have been a future prime minister.
Where did you go wrong?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I don't know what I went wrong, mate. I fatly
enjoyed my time in politics at five and the hockey's
and cabinet mates and significant changes, and now I'm taking
the business world. I'm loving it.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
I always thought you were in the wrong party. I'm
not the first one who ever said that to you.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
If I had a dollar every time someone said that
to me, I would never have needed to bun rate.
But you know, look I was probably to the right
of Labor and to the left of National so you
know I sat somewhere in the pragmatic middle.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
I think you're sitting in there with your mates Winston
and Shane in the middle.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Well, you know that this is the interesting thing. So
I was listening to your show and I had fed
Farmer's guy came on and say what the government has
done is absolutely fantastic and I could not believe this,
you know, not even labor. We're going to go so
far and have central government dictate what farmers could and
could not do with your land. We're going to leave
it to territorial authorities to make those decisions in consultation
(01:12):
with the community. Yeah, but the.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Government has Stuart Nash, the government had to do something
because the relentless march of carbon farming was taking over
a really good productive land that should be growing livestock
or crops.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
One hundred percent agree with that, and that's why, you know,
when I was the Minister of Forestry, we came up
with this plan. Every farm had to every forest, carbon
or otherwise had to be managed. But the thing is is,
you know, you're making an assumption now that the government
knows best around what farmers should be doing with your land.
So are you saying are you saying that the farmer
doesn't know what's best for his land because of her land?
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Oh no, I'm not saying that at all. But what
I don't want to see is blanket planting of pines
on farms full stock.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I don't want to see that either, And the vast
majority of farmers that I know. I don't want to
see that either, so very you know.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Stuart Stewart, it's happening out there. That is the problem.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
So farmers, so you know, we all know this. Let's
be honest. It's the bloody elfin Groom. It always has
been farmers farm for capital gains, right. I mean I
was talking to a farmer the other day and they're
developing a ship at Hawk's Bay that has no wool
because he's just sick to death of paying money to
share his sheep and make absolutely no money from it.
(02:26):
So the only reason he's paying is he's sharing a
sheep is for animal welfare. It's not for eytime. It's
and that's another story. That's snaps of disaster all it's
such a good product. But that's another story.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
We need to Stewart. We need to differentiate, don't we.
And you know a hell of a lot more about
forestry than I do, between production forestry and carbon farming,
because I think the carbon credits are a good add on,
another bite to the cherry for the forestry industry, and
goodness knows it needs it at the moment because time's
a bit but tough out there for the foresters.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
So to some farmers, I mean, you know a number
of farms that I used to speak to when arsked
Minister of Forestry and also just the Minister of other things.
Was these guys understood that there are parts of the
farm which we were uneconomic from a pastoral farming perspective,
too far away from a production forestry perspective. The land
was no good. So just planted up and you know,
(03:19):
you do it from a conservation perspective. But the thing
Chamber that I always said is it had to be
managed in a way that allowed the transition from radiata
to native. You just cannot have blanket planting. And the
reason I said this, and I went round the country sidingess,
is because radiator in a plantation setting without management has
a life of about eighty to one hundred and twenty years.
(03:40):
So if you just plant a hillside at twelve hundred
stems per hectare, you are inviting an ecological disaster in
eighty years time. Now, you know that the farmers that
I that I know and I respect, and you know,
they knew they weren't going to be around in eighty years,
but they wanted their farms to be around an eighty
ye years. So you manage these forests in a way
(04:02):
that allowed a transition from radiator to indigenous. It was
reasonably easy to do, but it took a bit of management.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah it hang on, no, no, no, getting to an
indigenous forest is not easy, Stewart. Now, you know as
well as I do, and I've got experience at the
coal face on this one. Natives are bloody hard to establish.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Well, it depends on where you are. I mean, if
you if you've got a farm beside her, if you're
planting radiator beside a blocker native, then there's no problems whatsoever.
It's very easier. But what you've got to do. This
is why this is when we talk about the managing
of carbon vice. So there's there's a chap. Actually, if
he's got a decent spread just out of Wellington and
(04:42):
he's got all these different regimes, it's quite one of
these serendipitous sort of moments where so he's got never
planted production, but they're proved live stocking, so you still
get your carbon credits off them, and my god, the
native regeneration through those is fantastic. This is the other thing.
If you're just planting twelve hundred cents a hectare, you're
getting no later than possible to possible to anything outside
(05:07):
of radiator. But you prune them and get lightwell from there,
then it's not difficult to do. There's going to be
a little bit of management or a little bit of
seeding if you're far, far far away from a native forest.
But most farms aren't, you know what I'm saying. And
most of the really dodgy land on farms, if it's
gullies or it's steep, and a lot of it is
near native stuff anyway, So I'm generalizing you, Jamie, you
(05:31):
know that. But all I'm saying is if a forest,
if a carbon forest is managed well with a silver
cultural regime that allows natives to come through, and what
you do is you can't have any carbon off those
pine trees after fifty Therefore, it promotes an active management.
As you transition from carbon from you from the radiator
through carbon from the natives, then that is okay. But
(05:53):
I don't think there's anyone, no forester, no farmer, that
wants to see highly productive land or even mildly productive land.
You know, three and four planted and radiator that is
not a good use of productive land. We all agree.
What we don't agree is how you manage these bloody
carbon vil But as.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
It stands at the moment, under this new government policy,
they're effectively driving production forestry to the hills. You can't
plant on land use classification one to five. You're very
limited on LUC six. So it's seven eight nine, that's steep,
it's far away from ports, it's non economic.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
It's unbelievable that it just shows that they actually have
a lack of knowledge around how the farming sicker works.
But then to have big farmers come out and sa,
oh yeah, this is bloody wonderful. I wonder if that
guy that actually spoken to his members you know that
I won't name them, but there's a number of innovative
farms that I spoke to that said, yeah, you know,
on our farm, it is a mixture of pastoral and
(06:56):
production forestry and a little bit of carbon forestry, and
we're retired some stuff and native you know, we all
know this. Every farmer listened to the show will know
that there are parts of the farm that are more
suitable for other land uses than you know that not
every part of the farm, you can have a sheep,
But to say you can't have forestry, sorry, you can't
(07:19):
have forestry on classes four and five. I mean, seriously
tell us that about.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
So is this twenty five percent threshold only allowing twenty
five percent of the farm to be planted. According to
doctor Elizabeth Higue from the Forest Owners Association, she says,
that's like just an arbitrary pig and the sand threshold.
You'd agree with that.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I would agree with that. I mean, you know, very
very briefly, I was acting Minister of Land Information and
the Land Information Portfolio at the time. The ship still
does has the Overseas in Bastment Act. And what I
did is when people were looking to buy farms, planted
the forestry, or even just buy a farm to farm,
(08:02):
I would make sure that what they had to have
was OS management plan put in place. But you know,
just saying twenty five percent, well, so you know, we
all know, every single listener knows that a farm in
the White cout is different than the farm and Central
Hawk's pay which is different from my farm and tied
aftery right farms. Very you just can't have an arbitrary number.
(08:23):
It says five percent it's got to be bespoke, depending
on the farm itself.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Just while we've got you, Stuart Nash, politics, Are you
missing it?
Speaker 2 (08:34):
I list it occasionally. And the reason I say that
is when I hear people on the radio say dumb things.
I think should I wish I could. I wish I
could get on the radio down to that. But by
and large made up back in the business. Well, I
spend more time with my families. Who got my my
family have got my weekend back. And I would hate
to be an opposition at the moment and be a
complete another waste of time. So you know, we make
(08:56):
a difference in its in cabinet, is in government. But
but you know where I miss it is you know
some of the decisions that are being made at the moment.
I don't think him the best interests of New Zealand.
I really don't.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
I talk about saying dumb things. Have you caught up
with the Greens alternative emissions reduction plan made?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
I heard it on the radio. I thought, why Jesus,
why doesn't she stick to walk on Central on the
issues that they've got in that electric You know, I
think I'm be honest with you, mate, I had a
lot of time for James Shaw. I thought he was
a sensible, pragmatic man, and I know a lot of
your listeners didn't agree with me on that, But he
was very well reasoned, very well researched, and he could
(09:37):
He knew the missions training game with the back of
your hand. When I was Minister of Fisheries, I did
a lot of work for Janie Sage. You know I
loved their predator free stuff. I think that's vital. You
know that he's a step for your mate. If if
we got rid of the possums, apparently every single possum
in New Zealand overnight would meet our mission scheme bait.
They fart, may belch, and they eat that much biomass
(09:58):
that's having much impact. But when I hear the Greens
emissions trading plan, I go, oh my god, that comes
such a long way from James. I don't know where
the Greens are out at the moment. I think you
know that i'd probably be there in twenty twenty six.
I'd bet a slight one hundred that they're gone by
twenty twenty nine.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
They're in La La Land. Now. I know you and
Chippy had your differences, but I do feel sorry for him,
and I'm not even sure he'll be leading Labor into
the twenty twenty six election. But I'm thinking if his
only choices now that he's ruled out Winston, and I
don't think Winston would go there again anyhow, if his
only choices are the Greens and to party Maury, he
has no show.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Well, this is where I differ from you. So where
I think Lucklan's gotten so much trouble is that he
was an inexperienced politician that was done over. I mean,
you know Cale McKee's gun reform, it's just bloody crazy
and there's treiny principles Bill, I mean that didn't need
to be on the agenda. What you've got in Chippy
is a very very experienced politician, a very experienced cabinet
(10:58):
minister that I know would not be done over in
any coalition agreement like Luxelm was done over by Act.
And so what you've got there is I think I
think it's actually time for a Prime minister who does
bring such a high level of experience. Now, I know
that number of your listeners won't agree with me on this,
but I was in Parliament with Jeffy from two thousand
(11:19):
and eight. We're in cabinet together for five and a
half years. He's a guy that actually understands how things work,
whereas LUs and you had a guy there who came
in after three years, got completely done over. And I
know I would if you ask any of your listeners
what is the vision for this national governor, I'd give
them a hundred bucks if they could tell me. I
don't know what the vision for this national government is?
(11:40):
Are you, Jamie? Now?
Speaker 1 (11:41):
You've forgotten one politician who's got lots of experience. He's
been in there since nineteen seventy eight. Ever thought about
him as a prime minister.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
I have got an immense amount of respect for Winston Peters,
I really do. I think he's a good man. I
count him as a personal friend. I think there's a
degree of bringas's in there, and I think there's an
opportunity there is. You know, Labor at the moment isn't resonating.
They need to come out and say no to this
wealth tax. They just need to knock that on the
head now. But National also wasn't resonating. You know, you've
(12:10):
got an unpopular prime minister. You remember John Key, a
formidable politician. Two you know, a year into his first term.
I mean that guy was was polling higher than anyone.
Well Luxon is you know, you've got the leader of
the opposition apparently polling higher than Luckson. He's just not
resonating my my networks TELM is not really enjoying it.
And it's common consensus once my mates that that Nicholas
(12:32):
just out of her depth. She really is.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Well, there we go our food for thought, Stuart Nash.
Always good to catch up, keep keep in touch. I
enjoyed you, i WM, I get you back
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Thanks Amy, I love to come back.
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