June 11, 2025 • 21 mins
Breeding hoggets can be a smart way to lift overall lamb numbers - but only if it’s done right.
In episode two of Optimising Lamb Survival, a podcast series from Beef + Lamb New Zealand, we’re diving into hogget lambing.
The Country’s Rowena Duncum sits down with Professor Paul Kenyon, Head of the School of Agriculture and Environment at Massey University and Riverton farmer Geordie Eade, to talk feed planning through lactation, scanning strategies, health considerations, and the long-term impacts of breeding ewe hoggets.
Whether you're already breeding hoggets or just considering it, this episode is packed with practical advice to help make the right decisions on-farm.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, hello and welcome into episode two of Optimizing a
Lamb Survival in Association with Beef and Lamb New Zealand.
My name's Rowena Duncan, rural leader and said me it's
my pleasure to be back with you once again. Now
this series aims to provide you with a bunch of
practical advice and proven strategies to help you lift lamb
survival and productivity on farm. In episode one, which was
(00:22):
released two weeks ago, I was joined by doctor David Stephens,
a Senior scientist for Agricultural Systems at ag Research. We
explored how feed planning, you nutrition and understanding what impacts
your system can all affect lamb survival. Today though we
are focusing on hoggot lambing, so feed planning through lactation,
(00:43):
the importance of scanning and animal health considerations. And for
that I have two guests with me. First of all,
Professor Paul Kenyon, Professor of Sheep Husbandry and head of
the School of Agriculture and Environment at MASSY. Hello, Paul, welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
In, Hello, good to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
And we also have ribton, sheep, beef and dairy farmer
Jeordie d with me as well.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Hi Jordy, Hirowena.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
How are you very well?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Thank you very delighted to be joined by the both
of you. So, Paul, let's start with you. What's your background?
How did you get to be where you are today?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I grew up on a sheep and beef farm in
the Manimal two and then I week to investage an
egg science degree. And while I was there, I got
interested in research. And one thing led to the other
was an intered in sheep and beef. They said, a
lot of sheep and beef research. And RE enjoyed that
and interacting with students and with farmers.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
And so was that Massy you went too? Or Lincoln?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I week to Massy?
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, Massy represent So did I, Jeordie? Did you go
to Lincoln bang as you're from the Deep South?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Yes, I went to think and I did a becommeg
there from nine and one and then the year of season.
Then I've been back home pretty much since.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Oh fantastic. Tell us about your farming operation.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
We've shifted this property in two thousand and one.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
We're on now. I always wanted to how to get
my wages myname was that my wages o the sheep
without the cost and the farming I think, so that's
where the sort of we had always land hoggits, but
not that intensively, so we sort of just wanted to
wind it up a step.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
So we developed the.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Property we've got, we've moved into successful lambing hogits, and
then we've progressed onto year where we are now. In
twenty nineteen, I was part of a group of the
ladyp group that we formed of about twelve farmers in
south and we went out of digressing how to do
land hogits better?
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Awesome, awesome, and I look forward to hearing about how
that group came about and what you've taken out of
that group very shortly as well, Paul, I'm going to
start with you though, why is there an interest in
breeding hogitts and do their lambs account for many of
the lambs weaned in New Zealand currently? Tell us about
the situation.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
So currently in New Zealand, only about thirty five percent
of hoggits of bred with an average naming percentage close
to seventy percent.
Speaker 5 (03:14):
That is rising, but it's only seventy percent. It's quite
a lot less than.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
The mature use. You may count for only about seven
or eight percent of the total lambs wind In New Zealand,
there's increased interest in breeding hogits because a it's a
way of getting income out of them in their first
year because as we all know, unfortunately we're not getting
a lot for wool. Secondly, it's a way of increasing
lifetime performance. And for me about top performing farmers and
(03:39):
their mature use, they're getting to the point they scanning
around the one to eighty one ninety two hundred. If
you go any further in that scanning, you're getting into
too many triplets and it's all too hard. And in
fact for me of those farmers are saying, well, I
don't want to go any further and repduct performance in
my mature use because the triple issue. So how do
I get more lambs? And that's really going to come
out of hobits awesome?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
So should all farmers consider breeding you hoggits? And should
it be a flexible management option? In your opinion?
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Poll I person believe not all farmers should. Firstly, they've
got to get their mature you system working well and
if they think they're at that potential, you know, it's
a lot easy to get lambing percentage up. You know,
t one hundred and fifty one hundred and sixty percent
in your mature use than it is to try to
get breeding going well. So you want to get your
(04:26):
mature used going well first, then move into hobbit breeding.
And when you start hobbit breeding, it should be flexible
that some of the targets will talk about today.
Speaker 5 (04:35):
Don't breed them in a given year.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
You know, if you've had a dry year and it's
been a bit harder to get into those liveweight bodies
conditions score targets. And I'd also say, especially when you're
first starting out, Now, start with a small percentage of
your your hoggits, get used to the system, and then
slowly increase the percentage of your hobgits you breed, so it's
a flexible system. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Interesting, Jordy, you mentioned that you've been part of this
hoggit RDP grit. You've been lambing hoggits over twenty years.
How did you get involved in it? What made you
first start to lamme your hoggits?
Speaker 3 (05:08):
You originally when I wanted to get my wages out
of the farm, and I love that a way we
could get it, And it's always been sort of a
laugh about Yeah, but you know, I felt that we
first of all, we had to change from traditional romney
to tif from to a composite to increase our chances
of our hobbit mating and been successful. So we changed
(05:31):
the hobbit, changed the tef FROMS went from there and
we've never looked back really and just refined the ways
of doing it, you would say along the way, Yeah, brilliant.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
And what about the RDP group, How did that come about?
Speaker 3 (05:44):
You know, we were all group of younger farmers. We
have one exception or with even Cross Cross younger older brother,
he is probably one of the best thoughts of the club,
of the group that we have. But we just come
about and we wanted to all combined our knowledge that
we had and bring it together and see how we
could actually do it better. And it's sort of morphed
(06:06):
into now of helping everybody else from our findings.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Yeah, brilliant, Paul, back to you, which hoggits should be
presented for breeding and which ones should not, And then
we're going to ask Jeordie if that's the process that
he follows on farm.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Super Like all mammals, puberty kicks in around about sixty
five to seventy percent of your mature weight. You mature
weight you use round about that breeding is a three year.
Speaker 5 (06:32):
Old for truth.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
And so if you've got a sixty five kilo North
Island you that's around that forty three kilows, you don't
have breed them any lighter than that. And I'm sure
Jordan is from the South plumb and have heavier weights
and you can talk about that. And also one of
the things that took over around puberty is having enough
physiological mechanisms, and one of them's driven by body fat,
(06:56):
and so they're going to have a bit of body fat.
So body kitchen score three is also another target because
that's really what a female uses to get herself through
printy annactation and all male so sheep is no different.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Geordie, I guess I'm going to admit and put my
hand up here that I'm today years old when I
found out that, apparently, from what Paul's saying, your South
Island sheep are bigger than our North Island sheep.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
I think that's one thing I did learn at Lincoln
that we're really particularly in Southend, there's always about that
seventy five ko average mature you in our group that
is probably right, where some are a wee bit more
in some way bit less.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
So yeah, so we're sort of around.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
We aim to have our hobbits around that average of
at least fifty when they go the RAM, and a
minimum of about forty five, so that's sort of air cutoff.
And really at the end of the day, the bigger
you can get them going to the RAM, the more
successful your hobbit leamming will be.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah, And speaking to doctor David Stevens two weeks ago,
he said, often it's really good to weigh some of
your sheep and actually work out that they are the
weight you think they are, not just you kind of
guessing sometimes because you can be a little bit off
and that can really impact your whole system.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
Oh yes, definitely. It's a clear for years.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
But even when you're doing your hobbits, you know, write
from when you've picked them, you need to model them
every month to see where if you're at where you
need to be enough not you then make those decisions
as we'll talk about later on.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Paul, I can't see you because we're down the phone,
but I know you'll be nodding along to what we're
saying that's right.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
I would stay every twenty eight days or so. If
you're drenching this way first fifty over the over the scales,
and that gives you a good idea of how they're
monitoring and how they're going, you know, starting in January,
so that by May you've got a real good idea.
It no good finding out in April they're not heavy,
it's too late, so you're ready to start monitoring around
(08:47):
it January Febry paid Paul.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I want to look at management plans because obviously these
are a really important part of any system. If you're
looking at lamming your hobbits, what should your mating plan
be over the breeding period?
Speaker 5 (09:02):
So first you want to make sure they're cycling.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
So we've talked about the live weight and body condition
score targets.
Speaker 5 (09:08):
You can also use a.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Teaser of the sectimized RAM, and if you're going to
use the forceectimized RAM, it's gonna be for a minium
of seventeen days, and there are some advantages of going
even earlier than that because remember she's a female just
going into puberty and the first couple of cycles. Actually,
the quality of the oval of the egg is not
that great, and embryonic survival is not that great. So
(09:32):
the earlier you can get of cycling the better. The
time you know, you start cycling and off start breeding.
And often our farmers are starting to breed early May,
so you need to have that sort of You need
to have your vaccination sort of as well, and we'll
touch on that a bit later. Prior to that, but
during mating, the young female she's not on heat or
receptive to the ram for as long as the mature you,
which might be twenty four to thirty six hours, and
(09:53):
the mature you it might only be twelve to eighteen
hours in a hoggit, so you need more rams you
so well you hog it. So one to fifty teams
of rams ideally not in massive hill country properties were
the chances of RAM and the hogo coming into interaction
is not great. So you do want to try to
(10:16):
Even if you are in a bigger property moving there
every couple of days, you get all mixed up a
bit if you're not in the smaller packs.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yeah, and this is where my trip last month to
out that Queensland, I can see how they would have
real trouble with this at one stage We were in
a fifteen thousand acre paddock that had three and a
half thousand us in it and we could not see
one for like maybe the half hour we're driving around
in that paddock. So I think, yeah, in New Zealand,
(10:41):
it's something we've got a much easier way of being
able to control. So that's the breeding period. What about
the management plan over pregnancy? Should farmers be concerned about
overfeeding pregnant hoggets?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
There was a lot of concern in the early two
thousands about that, but under New Zealand pastoral conditions have
never found a problem with overfeeding and pregnancy. And the
realviea is in New Zealand through winter it's difficult to
overfeed because of our pasture supply. You know, we tend
to be going down past to growth that covers on
average start to decline through winter. But just to remember
(11:21):
that the young hobbit, she's equivalent to a teenager in
human terms, so she has to grow herself as well
as get the nutritional requirements for the pregnancy itself to
the feed is appropriate mama lane development, et cetera. So
you really want to gain at least one hundred and
twenty one hundred and thirty grands per day, so that
she puts on that fourteen or fifteen kilos or more
(11:44):
in total and pregnancy, because the day after she lands
she's going to lose ninety to ten kilos.
Speaker 5 (11:49):
That that's the feedest of lissen to the fluids, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
And you want her to be well up into the
mid fifties by then in her weight, because that'll be
you know, it'll be late September October, so we don't
have to worry about overfeeding. The studies overseas was yested overfeeding.
They were going three or four hundred grams per day,
but they were feeding them high protein energy nut or pellets,
which we don't really have that New Zealand and our
(12:13):
sheep are limited by pasture.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, exactly. So now we've got her to the lambing
and then the lactation period, what should the management be
planned be during this time?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Paul just followed pretty much the same rules you would
with some mature use. You wanted to keep growing through
lactation yourself as well as producing a lot of milk.
So if you're on rye grass, white clothes or pasture
of some type, you don't want the covers to go
below twelve hundred or about four centimeters. As long as
(12:47):
you start above that, you're not limiting your intake and
out of the lamb. And the more the high quality
food and more the leg human sword, the higher the
performance you'll get from not only her and she leaned
up as if more likely to be a tooth, but
now will be heavier and gives you more options.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
At the end, Jeordie, looking at your farming system and
how you've adapted and changed things over the years. Over
the past twenty plus years you've been lambing hoggets. What
parts of that management plan advice resonated with you or
did you pack anything up that you haven't been doing.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Yeah, well, most of it really applies or fast as well.
We just found particularly a fair group that you cannot
you can overfeed them when they're actually gone.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
To the ram.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
So what we tend to do on south And is
we put them behind their silly strings where electric fences
we call them, and we restrict their sort of intake
as they go in to the ram. So we do
that for the period of them going to the ram,
and then as the rams are removed from them, we
start wandering back up again because we found it. If
were doing over two hundred grams a day, Paul can
probably ENLiGHT more unless they seem to absorb the pregnancy
(13:52):
and end up being barren.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
So from then.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
On we once we've got the feed really well and
wind them up, we're pretty much going into just what
Paul was just quite a long time before.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Paul anything to add about that.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah, there is some evidence, not a lot that really
gunning them hard over breeding called the embryos they're likely
to survive and implants. They don't have a lot of data,
but there's certainly a number of instances out there where
pogets are bread and they're good size and they've got
cup marks on them, but then they turn up non pregnant.
So there is that risk over the breeding period. But
(14:30):
at the same time, don't underfeed and so they're not growing.
I'm sure what Jordy's saying there is, you know, they're
still growing one hundred or so grands per day or
fifty grands, so they're still growing.
Speaker 5 (14:38):
You definitely helping them backwards going backwards, and you don't want.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Them just stopping it because it's going to make it
hardly to get to your two doo target weights by
being too hard over bread.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yeah, so definitely one to keep an eye on and
just learn your farm and how your stock react and
then tweak things as needed. Look, Paul, can there be
long term positive or next of impacts of breeding hoggets.
Speaker 5 (15:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
So basically there can be positive and negative impacts.
Speaker 5 (15:07):
And the reason why farmers often.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
As they talk to a farm and they'll say, I
tried hogg of breeding and didn't bloody work not doing
it again, that's really because they didn't have those live
weight targets and they weren't heavy enough at the start,
they didn't continue to grow them through pregnancy, and you know,
the spring got hard and they didn't really grow and
they ended up being three or four kilos at least
behind where they should be as a two tooth. And
(15:30):
if that happens, I'd say more than three or so
kilos behind as the truth from where you'd normally be
from your traditional non breed hoggit. They are less likely
to be in the flock as the five or six
year old, their lifetime performance will be less. But if
you can get them so they're at least where they
should be so you know general Northild examples, you're sixty
five sixty seven as your normal target. If you can
(15:51):
get them to their through hogg of breeding, well, then
in their lifetime they'll produce more names and they'll be
just as likely to be there as a five and
a six year old. So it's all about that feeding
in the first eighteen months to make sure they're reaching
those targets. If you do that, hobbit breeding will work.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Jordy, what about you? Have you noticed positive or negative
impacts on your farm and your operation from breeding your hoggits?
You know, have you been able to pay your wages
from it?
Speaker 4 (16:20):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Yeah, I mean we're up to five hundred lambs out
of the mouth so on. These prices are fairly well paid.
I would be a fairly well paid farm worker really,
But yes, it's nothing more rewarding and successfully doing it.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
But if you don't get it right, there are negatives.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
And as Paul said that if you don't a star
behind where they need to be, you need to pull
some strings somewhere along the line and catch up. And
if you get it wrong, there is consequences that will
not come into your fock. As a mature weight you
as heavy as the rest, and so you do need
to be you need to monitor what you're doing. And
(16:56):
as we said earlier, maybe just teach the water lamming
a few and then rather than lambing your whole flock
of hoggets. Yeah, and go from there.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
And I guess also, if you're looking at dipping your
toe in the waters there, make sure you choose your
biggest ones and like you're actually giving yourself a really
good chance, and then just see how things go. You
can see what what that does. Paul, overall, what are
the biggest drivers of success? Do you reckon?
Speaker 5 (17:26):
It is?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
It is that making sure that appropriate live weight targets
start and feeding them well throughout pregnancy to make sure
they gain that you know that fifteen data and kilos
of live weight, so that when she lands she's well
in the mid to late fifties, and then she'll put
on that weight during spring when the grass is growing,
(17:47):
and she'll meet that target. So that are important.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
There's a couple of things we didn't touch on.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
We should be taken as a given, but people often forget.
Is make sure you do your vaccinations for topsy.
Speaker 5 (17:58):
Topso and cambro vector.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
That's very important. Also make sure you do your pre
am vaccinations so the lambs get what they need out
that closstrum. And also make sure you talk to your
veterinarians about what is the appropriate internal parasite control through
that winter period if any, depending on your farm. So
(18:21):
the Little three Animal Health thinks that we should consider
as well.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely fantastic for that, Paul, do you order
anything else to add from you? How do people get
to be part of your group if they are near
you in South End?
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Yeah, well it's interesting there. We've as a group started,
we're originally twelve and we're now up. We've got a
couple of North other members as well that we've been
and toward their farms and they sort of feed and
our information as well. But the things our take home
messages from our group is mainly that RAM ratio. We've
actually knocked it down to about one to thirty or forty.
We thought more rams have seen, the more maturity of
(18:58):
rams you have, the success you will have.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
And also there's the internal powersites.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Is one that you really need to say is just.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
Check out as Paul said before that that.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
As they have had their lamb you need to make
or you're on top of their internal powasites. And probably
the biggest takeout message is you can never have them
too big. They need to be big when they go
into the rams. So the best, the bester you can
do that, the more likely you are to have a successful.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah, awesome, Paul or Jordan. Anything you guys want to
add before we wrap this up. Paul will start with you.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
I didn't touch on the teasing, and I know Jordan's
group does this as well. You have a minimum teas
for seventeen days if you're going to use teasers, but
you can tease for longer than that because, as I
alluded to earlier, earlier you get in cycling, the better
quality of the open the eggs will be and the
embroy is more likely to survive. So if you really
hit those big target weights.
Speaker 5 (19:54):
Like Jordan and this group does, there's.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Nothing wrong with starting teasing way back in March.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Excellent advice, Jordie. Anything you wanted to add before we wrap.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
We're sort of the early days of really finding a Dorpa.
RAM seems to be the more reflective of the hardy
and the higher survivability, but we're still in the early days.
Of that whether that's going to effect their meat at
the end. Doesn't seem to be doing that, but it
does seem to be as we're getting good results out
of it too, it does seem promising.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Yeah, yeah, I had a dauper lamb wreck in Australia
last month and yeah, it wasn't too bad. It wasn't
too bad. I know Jamie McKay would have been extremely
jealous if we could have seen my plate at that farm. Anyway,
I digress Paul Kimyon, who is the Professor of Sheep
Husbandry and head of the School of Agriculture and Environment
at Massy University, and Riverton Sheep and Beef and dairy
(20:45):
farmer who does it all. Jordi Ed thank you both
so much for joining me on this podcast. I really
appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (20:53):
I'm too happy to help.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Awesome. Hey, look, if you want to find out more,
just head to beef lamb in Z. That's all one word,
beflamenz dot com forward slash lamb Survival. I'm back in
another week. In our third and final episode, I'm going
to be joined by Associate Professor Renee Corner Thomas from
Massi University. We'll explore how to make the most of scanning,
(21:15):
from identifying use needing extra support, to improving feeding strategies
and pinpointing lambing dates. If you want to turn scanning
results into real productivity gains, this episode is for you.
That's coming out in a week's time. Catch you then
Well, hello and welcome into episode two of Optimizing a
Lamb Survival in Association with Beef and Lamb New Zealand.
My name's Rowena Duncan, rural leader and said me it's
my pleasure to be back with you once again. Now
this series aims to provide you with a bunch of
practical advice and proven strategies to help you lift lamb
survival and productivity on farm. In episode one, which was
(00:22):
released two weeks ago, I was joined by doctor David Stephens,
a Senior scientist for Agricultural Systems at ag Research. We
explored how feed planning, you nutrition and understanding what impacts
your system can all affect lamb survival. Today though we
are focusing on hoggot lambing, so feed planning through lactation,
(00:43):
the importance of scanning and animal health considerations. And for
that I have two guests with me. First of all,
Professor Paul Kenyon, Professor of Sheep Husbandry and head of
the School of Agriculture and Environment at MASSY. Hello, Paul, welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
In, Hello, good to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
And we also have ribton, sheep, beef and dairy farmer
Jeordie d with me as well.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Hi Jordy, Hirowena.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
How are you very well?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Thank you very delighted to be joined by the both
of you. So, Paul, let's start with you. What's your background?
How did you get to be where you are today?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I grew up on a sheep and beef farm in
the Manimal two and then I week to investage an
egg science degree. And while I was there, I got
interested in research. And one thing led to the other
was an intered in sheep and beef. They said, a
lot of sheep and beef research. And RE enjoyed that
and interacting with students and with farmers.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
And so was that Massy you went too? Or Lincoln?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I week to Massy?
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, Massy represent So did I, Jeordie? Did you go
to Lincoln bang as you're from the Deep South?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Yes, I went to think and I did a becommeg
there from nine and one and then the year of season.
Then I've been back home pretty much since.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Oh fantastic. Tell us about your farming operation.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
We've shifted this property in two thousand and one.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
We're on now. I always wanted to how to get
my wages myname was that my wages o the sheep
without the cost and the farming I think, so that's
where the sort of we had always land hoggits, but
not that intensively, so we sort of just wanted to
wind it up a step.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
So we developed the.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Property we've got, we've moved into successful lambing hogits, and
then we've progressed onto year where we are now. In
twenty nineteen, I was part of a group of the
ladyp group that we formed of about twelve farmers in
south and we went out of digressing how to do
land hogits better?
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Awesome, awesome, and I look forward to hearing about how
that group came about and what you've taken out of
that group very shortly as well, Paul, I'm going to
start with you though, why is there an interest in
breeding hogitts and do their lambs account for many of
the lambs weaned in New Zealand currently? Tell us about
the situation.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
So currently in New Zealand, only about thirty five percent
of hoggits of bred with an average naming percentage close
to seventy percent.
Speaker 5 (03:14):
That is rising, but it's only seventy percent. It's quite
a lot less than.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
The mature use. You may count for only about seven
or eight percent of the total lambs wind In New Zealand,
there's increased interest in breeding hogits because a it's a
way of getting income out of them in their first
year because as we all know, unfortunately we're not getting
a lot for wool. Secondly, it's a way of increasing
lifetime performance. And for me about top performing farmers and
(03:39):
their mature use, they're getting to the point they scanning
around the one to eighty one ninety two hundred. If
you go any further in that scanning, you're getting into
too many triplets and it's all too hard. And in
fact for me of those farmers are saying, well, I
don't want to go any further and repduct performance in
my mature use because the triple issue. So how do
I get more lambs? And that's really going to come
out of hobits awesome?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
So should all farmers consider breeding you hoggits? And should
it be a flexible management option? In your opinion?
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Poll I person believe not all farmers should. Firstly, they've
got to get their mature you system working well and
if they think they're at that potential, you know, it's
a lot easy to get lambing percentage up. You know,
t one hundred and fifty one hundred and sixty percent
in your mature use than it is to try to
get breeding going well. So you want to get your
(04:26):
mature used going well first, then move into hobbit breeding.
And when you start hobbit breeding, it should be flexible
that some of the targets will talk about today.
Speaker 5 (04:35):
Don't breed them in a given year.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
You know, if you've had a dry year and it's
been a bit harder to get into those liveweight bodies
conditions score targets. And I'd also say, especially when you're
first starting out, Now, start with a small percentage of
your your hoggits, get used to the system, and then
slowly increase the percentage of your hobgits you breed, so it's
a flexible system. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Interesting, Jordy, you mentioned that you've been part of this
hoggit RDP grit. You've been lambing hoggits over twenty years.
How did you get involved in it? What made you
first start to lamme your hoggits?
Speaker 3 (05:08):
You originally when I wanted to get my wages out
of the farm, and I love that a way we
could get it, And it's always been sort of a
laugh about Yeah, but you know, I felt that we
first of all, we had to change from traditional romney
to tif from to a composite to increase our chances
of our hobbit mating and been successful. So we changed
(05:31):
the hobbit, changed the tef FROMS went from there and
we've never looked back really and just refined the ways
of doing it, you would say along the way, Yeah, brilliant.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
And what about the RDP group, How did that come about?
Speaker 3 (05:44):
You know, we were all group of younger farmers. We
have one exception or with even Cross Cross younger older brother,
he is probably one of the best thoughts of the club,
of the group that we have. But we just come
about and we wanted to all combined our knowledge that
we had and bring it together and see how we
could actually do it better. And it's sort of morphed
(06:06):
into now of helping everybody else from our findings.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Yeah, brilliant, Paul, back to you, which hoggits should be
presented for breeding and which ones should not, And then
we're going to ask Jeordie if that's the process that
he follows on farm.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Super Like all mammals, puberty kicks in around about sixty
five to seventy percent of your mature weight. You mature
weight you use round about that breeding is a three year.
Speaker 5 (06:32):
Old for truth.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
And so if you've got a sixty five kilo North
Island you that's around that forty three kilows, you don't
have breed them any lighter than that. And I'm sure
Jordan is from the South plumb and have heavier weights
and you can talk about that. And also one of
the things that took over around puberty is having enough
physiological mechanisms, and one of them's driven by body fat,
(06:56):
and so they're going to have a bit of body fat.
So body kitchen score three is also another target because
that's really what a female uses to get herself through
printy annactation and all male so sheep is no different.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Geordie, I guess I'm going to admit and put my
hand up here that I'm today years old when I
found out that, apparently, from what Paul's saying, your South
Island sheep are bigger than our North Island sheep.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
I think that's one thing I did learn at Lincoln
that we're really particularly in Southend, there's always about that
seventy five ko average mature you in our group that
is probably right, where some are a wee bit more
in some way bit less.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
So yeah, so we're sort of around.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
We aim to have our hobbits around that average of
at least fifty when they go the RAM, and a
minimum of about forty five, so that's sort of air cutoff.
And really at the end of the day, the bigger
you can get them going to the RAM, the more
successful your hobbit leamming will be.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah, And speaking to doctor David Stevens two weeks ago,
he said, often it's really good to weigh some of
your sheep and actually work out that they are the
weight you think they are, not just you kind of
guessing sometimes because you can be a little bit off
and that can really impact your whole system.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
Oh yes, definitely. It's a clear for years.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
But even when you're doing your hobbits, you know, write
from when you've picked them, you need to model them
every month to see where if you're at where you
need to be enough not you then make those decisions
as we'll talk about later on.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Paul, I can't see you because we're down the phone,
but I know you'll be nodding along to what we're
saying that's right.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
I would stay every twenty eight days or so. If
you're drenching this way first fifty over the over the scales,
and that gives you a good idea of how they're
monitoring and how they're going, you know, starting in January,
so that by May you've got a real good idea.
It no good finding out in April they're not heavy,
it's too late, so you're ready to start monitoring around
(08:47):
it January Febry paid Paul.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I want to look at management plans because obviously these
are a really important part of any system. If you're
looking at lamming your hobbits, what should your mating plan
be over the breeding period?
Speaker 5 (09:02):
So first you want to make sure they're cycling.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
So we've talked about the live weight and body condition
score targets.
Speaker 5 (09:08):
You can also use a.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Teaser of the sectimized RAM, and if you're going to
use the forceectimized RAM, it's gonna be for a minium
of seventeen days, and there are some advantages of going
even earlier than that because remember she's a female just
going into puberty and the first couple of cycles. Actually,
the quality of the oval of the egg is not
that great, and embryonic survival is not that great. So
(09:32):
the earlier you can get of cycling the better. The
time you know, you start cycling and off start breeding.
And often our farmers are starting to breed early May,
so you need to have that sort of You need
to have your vaccination sort of as well, and we'll
touch on that a bit later. Prior to that, but
during mating, the young female she's not on heat or
receptive to the ram for as long as the mature you,
which might be twenty four to thirty six hours, and
(09:53):
the mature you it might only be twelve to eighteen
hours in a hoggit, so you need more rams you
so well you hog it. So one to fifty teams
of rams ideally not in massive hill country properties were
the chances of RAM and the hogo coming into interaction
is not great. So you do want to try to
(10:16):
Even if you are in a bigger property moving there
every couple of days, you get all mixed up a
bit if you're not in the smaller packs.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yeah, and this is where my trip last month to
out that Queensland, I can see how they would have
real trouble with this at one stage We were in
a fifteen thousand acre paddock that had three and a
half thousand us in it and we could not see
one for like maybe the half hour we're driving around
in that paddock. So I think, yeah, in New Zealand,
(10:41):
it's something we've got a much easier way of being
able to control. So that's the breeding period. What about
the management plan over pregnancy? Should farmers be concerned about
overfeeding pregnant hoggets?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
There was a lot of concern in the early two
thousands about that, but under New Zealand pastoral conditions have
never found a problem with overfeeding and pregnancy. And the
realviea is in New Zealand through winter it's difficult to
overfeed because of our pasture supply. You know, we tend
to be going down past to growth that covers on
average start to decline through winter. But just to remember
(11:21):
that the young hobbit, she's equivalent to a teenager in
human terms, so she has to grow herself as well
as get the nutritional requirements for the pregnancy itself to
the feed is appropriate mama lane development, et cetera. So
you really want to gain at least one hundred and
twenty one hundred and thirty grands per day, so that
she puts on that fourteen or fifteen kilos or more
(11:44):
in total and pregnancy, because the day after she lands
she's going to lose ninety to ten kilos.
Speaker 5 (11:49):
That that's the feedest of lissen to the fluids, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
And you want her to be well up into the
mid fifties by then in her weight, because that'll be
you know, it'll be late September October, so we don't
have to worry about overfeeding. The studies overseas was yested overfeeding.
They were going three or four hundred grams per day,
but they were feeding them high protein energy nut or pellets,
which we don't really have that New Zealand and our
(12:13):
sheep are limited by pasture.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, exactly. So now we've got her to the lambing
and then the lactation period, what should the management be
planned be during this time?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Paul just followed pretty much the same rules you would
with some mature use. You wanted to keep growing through
lactation yourself as well as producing a lot of milk.
So if you're on rye grass, white clothes or pasture
of some type, you don't want the covers to go
below twelve hundred or about four centimeters. As long as
(12:47):
you start above that, you're not limiting your intake and
out of the lamb. And the more the high quality
food and more the leg human sword, the higher the
performance you'll get from not only her and she leaned
up as if more likely to be a tooth, but
now will be heavier and gives you more options.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
At the end, Jeordie, looking at your farming system and
how you've adapted and changed things over the years. Over
the past twenty plus years you've been lambing hoggets. What
parts of that management plan advice resonated with you or
did you pack anything up that you haven't been doing.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Yeah, well, most of it really applies or fast as well.
We just found particularly a fair group that you cannot
you can overfeed them when they're actually gone.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
To the ram.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
So what we tend to do on south And is
we put them behind their silly strings where electric fences
we call them, and we restrict their sort of intake
as they go in to the ram. So we do
that for the period of them going to the ram,
and then as the rams are removed from them, we
start wandering back up again because we found it. If
were doing over two hundred grams a day, Paul can
probably ENLiGHT more unless they seem to absorb the pregnancy
(13:52):
and end up being barren.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
So from then.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
On we once we've got the feed really well and
wind them up, we're pretty much going into just what
Paul was just quite a long time before.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Paul anything to add about that.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah, there is some evidence, not a lot that really
gunning them hard over breeding called the embryos they're likely
to survive and implants. They don't have a lot of data,
but there's certainly a number of instances out there where
pogets are bread and they're good size and they've got
cup marks on them, but then they turn up non pregnant.
So there is that risk over the breeding period. But
(14:30):
at the same time, don't underfeed and so they're not growing.
I'm sure what Jordy's saying there is, you know, they're
still growing one hundred or so grands per day or
fifty grands, so they're still growing.
Speaker 5 (14:38):
You definitely helping them backwards going backwards, and you don't want.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Them just stopping it because it's going to make it
hardly to get to your two doo target weights by
being too hard over bread.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yeah, so definitely one to keep an eye on and
just learn your farm and how your stock react and
then tweak things as needed. Look, Paul, can there be
long term positive or next of impacts of breeding hoggets.
Speaker 5 (15:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
So basically there can be positive and negative impacts.
Speaker 5 (15:07):
And the reason why farmers often.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
As they talk to a farm and they'll say, I
tried hogg of breeding and didn't bloody work not doing
it again, that's really because they didn't have those live
weight targets and they weren't heavy enough at the start,
they didn't continue to grow them through pregnancy, and you know,
the spring got hard and they didn't really grow and
they ended up being three or four kilos at least
behind where they should be as a two tooth. And
(15:30):
if that happens, I'd say more than three or so
kilos behind as the truth from where you'd normally be
from your traditional non breed hoggit. They are less likely
to be in the flock as the five or six
year old, their lifetime performance will be less. But if
you can get them so they're at least where they
should be so you know general Northild examples, you're sixty
five sixty seven as your normal target. If you can
(15:51):
get them to their through hogg of breeding, well, then
in their lifetime they'll produce more names and they'll be
just as likely to be there as a five and
a six year old. So it's all about that feeding
in the first eighteen months to make sure they're reaching
those targets. If you do that, hobbit breeding will work.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Jordy, what about you? Have you noticed positive or negative
impacts on your farm and your operation from breeding your hoggits?
You know, have you been able to pay your wages
from it?
Speaker 4 (16:20):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Yeah, I mean we're up to five hundred lambs out
of the mouth so on. These prices are fairly well paid.
I would be a fairly well paid farm worker really,
But yes, it's nothing more rewarding and successfully doing it.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
But if you don't get it right, there are negatives.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
And as Paul said that if you don't a star
behind where they need to be, you need to pull
some strings somewhere along the line and catch up. And
if you get it wrong, there is consequences that will
not come into your fock. As a mature weight you
as heavy as the rest, and so you do need
to be you need to monitor what you're doing. And
(16:56):
as we said earlier, maybe just teach the water lamming
a few and then rather than lambing your whole flock
of hoggets. Yeah, and go from there.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
And I guess also, if you're looking at dipping your
toe in the waters there, make sure you choose your
biggest ones and like you're actually giving yourself a really
good chance, and then just see how things go. You
can see what what that does. Paul, overall, what are
the biggest drivers of success? Do you reckon?
Speaker 5 (17:26):
It is?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
It is that making sure that appropriate live weight targets
start and feeding them well throughout pregnancy to make sure
they gain that you know that fifteen data and kilos
of live weight, so that when she lands she's well
in the mid to late fifties, and then she'll put
on that weight during spring when the grass is growing,
(17:47):
and she'll meet that target. So that are important.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
There's a couple of things we didn't touch on.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
We should be taken as a given, but people often forget.
Is make sure you do your vaccinations for topsy.
Speaker 5 (17:58):
Topso and cambro vector.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
That's very important. Also make sure you do your pre
am vaccinations so the lambs get what they need out
that closstrum. And also make sure you talk to your
veterinarians about what is the appropriate internal parasite control through
that winter period if any, depending on your farm. So
(18:21):
the Little three Animal Health thinks that we should consider
as well.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely fantastic for that, Paul, do you order
anything else to add from you? How do people get
to be part of your group if they are near
you in South End?
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Yeah, well it's interesting there. We've as a group started,
we're originally twelve and we're now up. We've got a
couple of North other members as well that we've been
and toward their farms and they sort of feed and
our information as well. But the things our take home
messages from our group is mainly that RAM ratio. We've
actually knocked it down to about one to thirty or forty.
We thought more rams have seen, the more maturity of
(18:58):
rams you have, the success you will have.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
And also there's the internal powersites.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Is one that you really need to say is just.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
Check out as Paul said before that that.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
As they have had their lamb you need to make
or you're on top of their internal powasites. And probably
the biggest takeout message is you can never have them
too big. They need to be big when they go
into the rams. So the best, the bester you can
do that, the more likely you are to have a successful.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah, awesome, Paul or Jordan. Anything you guys want to
add before we wrap this up. Paul will start with you.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
I didn't touch on the teasing, and I know Jordan's
group does this as well. You have a minimum teas
for seventeen days if you're going to use teasers, but
you can tease for longer than that because, as I
alluded to earlier, earlier you get in cycling, the better
quality of the open the eggs will be and the
embroy is more likely to survive. So if you really
hit those big target weights.
Speaker 5 (19:54):
Like Jordan and this group does, there's.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Nothing wrong with starting teasing way back in March.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Excellent advice, Jordie. Anything you wanted to add before we wrap.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
We're sort of the early days of really finding a Dorpa.
RAM seems to be the more reflective of the hardy
and the higher survivability, but we're still in the early days.
Of that whether that's going to effect their meat at
the end. Doesn't seem to be doing that, but it
does seem to be as we're getting good results out
of it too, it does seem promising.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Yeah, yeah, I had a dauper lamb wreck in Australia
last month and yeah, it wasn't too bad. It wasn't
too bad. I know Jamie McKay would have been extremely
jealous if we could have seen my plate at that farm. Anyway,
I digress Paul Kimyon, who is the Professor of Sheep
Husbandry and head of the School of Agriculture and Environment
at Massy University, and Riverton Sheep and Beef and dairy
(20:45):
farmer who does it all. Jordi Ed thank you both
so much for joining me on this podcast. I really
appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (20:53):
I'm too happy to help.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Awesome. Hey, look, if you want to find out more,
just head to beef lamb in Z. That's all one word,
beflamenz dot com forward slash lamb Survival. I'm back in
another week. In our third and final episode, I'm going
to be joined by Associate Professor Renee Corner Thomas from
Massi University. We'll explore how to make the most of scanning,
(21:15):
from identifying use needing extra support, to improving feeding strategies
and pinpointing lambing dates. If you want to turn scanning
results into real productivity gains, this episode is for you.
That's coming out in a week's time. Catch you then
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