September 19, 2024 • 6 mins
Former Wallaby and now co-founder of Gain-Line analytics. Ben was in the last Wallabies team to hoist the Bledisloe Cup back in 2002. Why has it taken 22 years? his thoughts on the team.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
International rugby coverage on the country. Sport Breakfast is proudly
brought to you by Access Solutions, elevating you and your
business to a higher level. We're talking international rugby now
on the show where the All Blacks and the Wallabies
play the first of two Blederslow Cup Test matches tomorrow afternoon,
New Zealand time. It'll be live here on Goldsport from
five point thirty out of Stadium, Australia. Joining us on
(00:23):
the show this morning out of Australia, former Wallaby's prop
with twenty eight caps to his name and co founder
of Gainline Analytics is Ben Darwin. Morning, Ben, very very well,
thank you. You're a man who knows it a thing
or two about holding on to the Blederslow Cup. We'll
get to that shortly, but first up, before we talk
about the test at hand, tell us a little bit
(00:44):
about what the business you've created with Gainline Analytics. What
do you do.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Basically, we've been researching what is the sort of real
strengths of teams and one of the biggest things that
I think is underestimated is the level of understanding between
them owned parts of a team and so what we've
been able to do is find a way to measure
that objectively, and a lot of it is driven through,
you know, structures you have in place, you know how
(01:11):
consistent the coaches with selection, how much people have played
in certain positions. And so what we've basically found is
a level of understanding between the component parts of the
team is actually much more predictive of how a team
is going to go as opposed to just measuring the
individual skill, which is very hard to do anyway. And
so we work with clubs, some good, some bad around
(01:31):
how to create sustainable success.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Well, the Wallaby is looking at their coaching history. Joe
Schmitt the fifth coach in the last decade, Is he
going to be the one to turn things around? You think, Well,
let me put.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
It to you this way. We measure you know, a
coach's impact on a team. And if a team is
like a horse. You know, if you're a good jockey,
but you've got a horse that's lame, it's impossible to win.
And I'm not saying to play the lamee. I'm just
saying how things are constructed. And so we've gone through
a lot of coaches in Australia attempting to find the answer,
and I think we've been finding the coach isn't necessarily
(02:07):
the answer that how we're structure, that we're built. It's
probably more driving our success for our failure. So to
think that Joe is the answer is probably not fair
to him, and it wasn't fair to Robbie Deans, and
it wasn't fair to you and McKenzie or all the
different people we've been through and the nine different captains
we had the last year to say they can fix it.
It's going to have to be fixed through sort of
(02:28):
hard draft.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Well, you personally, as I mentioned in our intro, you
were in the last Aussie side that held the bled
ers Low Cup and that was way back in two
thousand and two. What was it like playing in that
team in those games?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Well, if I take about the stuff we're measuring, we
were the probably best built side in the world at
that point and we had a lot of Queenlanders and
Bumbies guys in that team and we were very, very lucky.
And for me, he is sort of coming into a
team with childhood heroes like George Gregan and Stephen Likekham
and Push. I played with them with the Brumbies but
(03:03):
it still had to pitch yourself a little bit. So
but you know, the one thing we did do back
then we just defended.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Well.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
We were not a good attacking team. In fact, the
Ollaby is now pretty much scored more points against Jill
Blacks than we did back then. But what we did
is basically understanding equals defense and we just didn't allow
a lot of points. You look at the ninety nine team,
didn't when the starting team was on, didn't let in
a try the whole tournament. So I think the Wallabies
in that period was fundamentally a very very good defensive side,
(03:30):
No dud.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
You've cast your eye on the selection for the team
against the All Blacks and I guess the big, big
surprise and talking point is bringing in Nick White back
at halfback.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Yeah. We've changed halfbacks now seventeen times in the last
three years, you know, we've been It's really about deciding
who the right eyes are and then how we carry
that through. It's the next sort of performance period into
the World Cup. But you know this is this is
probably close to the better side Australia's picked so far
(04:02):
this year. The challenge for us has been and actually
the All Blacks a certain extent, it's been that went
out because we don't really have a huge amount of
depth or what we might call cohesion outside of the
starting fifteen. We really fall away. You saw that with
you know, New Zealand and So Africa, and you certainly
saw that with the Wallabies against Argentina last time when
(04:22):
they put thirty forty points on pretty late. So it's
how we managed to bring our benches on and continue
to perform is a challenge for both sides coming into
this weekend, I feel.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
And casting your analytical eye or brain over that last
game against the against Argentina sixty seven twenty seven. That
was horrendous, really, wasn't it.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
It was. But if you look at if you look
at the way we look at things, there's no expectation
surprise there. I mean, the last time we did that
type of thing was ninety ninety seven against you know,
the spring Box in Pretoria and they put sixty on
us over there. It's just it's just when and you're
rotating through to a new side, and then the news
and then you bring the bench on. They tend to
(05:04):
be even less experience, which is where we are right now.
And so I think the main thing is not to say, right,
that's the player's fault. We just have to go and
get a whole bunch of new ones because there aren't
any else. There really aren't any other guys, you know,
in Australia that are more skillful for these guys. We've
just got to stick with what we have and hopefully
those guys get some confidence as they come on in
(05:24):
the games and then make their way into the starting team.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
And then do you think the auser rugby can get
back to being one of the world's best sides.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I think it's really important to understand why we were
where we were, and I think countries like Ireland Scotland
we're nowhere near as organized or well built. You know,
we walked through a window of opportunity. There was only basically,
as we would say, two well built teams in the
world in nineteen ninety nine. Now there's about seven or eight.
You look at how you know, the Springboks were in three.
(05:55):
There was a disaster zone and so so how they
were built with guys being you know, dragged in and
out of us. So I think that what's happened now
is that the world has gotten better in terms of
test drugy and the quality of all sides, and everything's
much closer. We're never going to get the same opportunity
again to be so dominant as we were, but we
should be a lot more competitive than we are. We're
not the tenth best team in the world. We should
(06:17):
be much closer than we are right now, but it's
going to take some work to to start to work
our way back up. The latter.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
We look forward to the match on Saturday and then
again the return match in New Zealand being Hey, thank
you for joining.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Us, mate, that's a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
It's Ben Darwin out of his company Gainline Analytics. What
he sees makes a lot of sense. It's quite fascinating actually,
and of course commentary of the game tomorrow after dinner
and quart it a sixth or tomorrow evening. Really New
Zealand time caughted a six kickoff
International rugby coverage on the country. Sport Breakfast is proudly
brought to you by Access Solutions, elevating you and your
business to a higher level. We're talking international rugby now
on the show where the All Blacks and the Wallabies
play the first of two Blederslow Cup Test matches tomorrow afternoon,
New Zealand time. It'll be live here on Goldsport from
five point thirty out of Stadium, Australia. Joining us on
(00:23):
the show this morning out of Australia, former Wallaby's prop
with twenty eight caps to his name and co founder
of Gainline Analytics is Ben Darwin. Morning, Ben, very very well,
thank you. You're a man who knows it a thing
or two about holding on to the Blederslow Cup. We'll
get to that shortly, but first up, before we talk
about the test at hand, tell us a little bit
(00:44):
about what the business you've created with Gainline Analytics. What
do you do.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Basically, we've been researching what is the sort of real
strengths of teams and one of the biggest things that
I think is underestimated is the level of understanding between
them owned parts of a team and so what we've
been able to do is find a way to measure
that objectively, and a lot of it is driven through,
you know, structures you have in place, you know how
(01:11):
consistent the coaches with selection, how much people have played
in certain positions. And so what we've basically found is
a level of understanding between the component parts of the
team is actually much more predictive of how a team
is going to go as opposed to just measuring the
individual skill, which is very hard to do anyway. And
so we work with clubs, some good, some bad around
(01:31):
how to create sustainable success.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Well, the Wallaby is looking at their coaching history. Joe
Schmitt the fifth coach in the last decade, Is he
going to be the one to turn things around? You think, Well,
let me put.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
It to you this way. We measure you know, a
coach's impact on a team. And if a team is
like a horse. You know, if you're a good jockey,
but you've got a horse that's lame, it's impossible to win.
And I'm not saying to play the lamee. I'm just
saying how things are constructed. And so we've gone through
a lot of coaches in Australia attempting to find the answer,
and I think we've been finding the coach isn't necessarily
(02:07):
the answer that how we're structure, that we're built. It's
probably more driving our success for our failure. So to
think that Joe is the answer is probably not fair
to him, and it wasn't fair to Robbie Deans, and
it wasn't fair to you and McKenzie or all the
different people we've been through and the nine different captains
we had the last year to say they can fix it.
It's going to have to be fixed through sort of
(02:28):
hard draft.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Well, you personally, as I mentioned in our intro, you
were in the last Aussie side that held the bled
ers Low Cup and that was way back in two
thousand and two. What was it like playing in that
team in those games?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Well, if I take about the stuff we're measuring, we
were the probably best built side in the world at
that point and we had a lot of Queenlanders and
Bumbies guys in that team and we were very, very lucky.
And for me, he is sort of coming into a
team with childhood heroes like George Gregan and Stephen Likekham
and Push. I played with them with the Brumbies but
(03:03):
it still had to pitch yourself a little bit. So
but you know, the one thing we did do back
then we just defended.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Well.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
We were not a good attacking team. In fact, the
Ollaby is now pretty much scored more points against Jill
Blacks than we did back then. But what we did
is basically understanding equals defense and we just didn't allow
a lot of points. You look at the ninety nine team,
didn't when the starting team was on, didn't let in
a try the whole tournament. So I think the Wallabies
in that period was fundamentally a very very good defensive side,
(03:30):
No dud.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
You've cast your eye on the selection for the team
against the All Blacks and I guess the big, big
surprise and talking point is bringing in Nick White back
at halfback.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Yeah. We've changed halfbacks now seventeen times in the last
three years, you know, we've been It's really about deciding
who the right eyes are and then how we carry
that through. It's the next sort of performance period into
the World Cup. But you know this is this is
probably close to the better side Australia's picked so far
(04:02):
this year. The challenge for us has been and actually
the All Blacks a certain extent, it's been that went
out because we don't really have a huge amount of
depth or what we might call cohesion outside of the
starting fifteen. We really fall away. You saw that with
you know, New Zealand and So Africa, and you certainly
saw that with the Wallabies against Argentina last time when
(04:22):
they put thirty forty points on pretty late. So it's
how we managed to bring our benches on and continue
to perform is a challenge for both sides coming into
this weekend, I feel.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
And casting your analytical eye or brain over that last
game against the against Argentina sixty seven twenty seven. That
was horrendous, really, wasn't it.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
It was. But if you look at if you look
at the way we look at things, there's no expectation
surprise there. I mean, the last time we did that
type of thing was ninety ninety seven against you know,
the spring Box in Pretoria and they put sixty on
us over there. It's just it's just when and you're
rotating through to a new side, and then the news
and then you bring the bench on. They tend to
(05:04):
be even less experience, which is where we are right now.
And so I think the main thing is not to say, right,
that's the player's fault. We just have to go and
get a whole bunch of new ones because there aren't
any else. There really aren't any other guys, you know,
in Australia that are more skillful for these guys. We've
just got to stick with what we have and hopefully
those guys get some confidence as they come on in
(05:24):
the games and then make their way into the starting team.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
And then do you think the auser rugby can get
back to being one of the world's best sides.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I think it's really important to understand why we were
where we were, and I think countries like Ireland Scotland
we're nowhere near as organized or well built. You know,
we walked through a window of opportunity. There was only basically,
as we would say, two well built teams in the
world in nineteen ninety nine. Now there's about seven or eight.
You look at how you know, the Springboks were in three.
(05:55):
There was a disaster zone and so so how they
were built with guys being you know, dragged in and
out of us. So I think that what's happened now
is that the world has gotten better in terms of
test drugy and the quality of all sides, and everything's
much closer. We're never going to get the same opportunity
again to be so dominant as we were, but we
should be a lot more competitive than we are. We're
not the tenth best team in the world. We should
(06:17):
be much closer than we are right now, but it's
going to take some work to to start to work
our way back up. The latter.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
We look forward to the match on Saturday and then
again the return match in New Zealand being Hey, thank
you for joining.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Us, mate, that's a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
It's Ben Darwin out of his company Gainline Analytics. What
he sees makes a lot of sense. It's quite fascinating actually,
and of course commentary of the game tomorrow after dinner
and quart it a sixth or tomorrow evening. Really New
Zealand time caughted a six kickoff
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