August 28, 2025 • 24 mins
20 years on, and the devastation left behind by Hurricane Katrina is still being felt.
The category three hurricane made landfall on August 29, 2005 devastating parts of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama – with New Orleans suffering catastrophic flooding due to levee failures.
About 80% of the city was inundated with water, and while a mandatory evacuation order was made just one day before landfall, many people – up to 150,000 – did not or simply could not leave.
The official death toll is believed to be nearly 1,400.
University of Albany professor of political science, Eric Stern, is with us to examine some of the painful lessons learned from Katrina.
Then, later we speak to Dr Lauren Vinnell, Massey University Senior Lecturer of Emergency Management, about how New Zealand’s systems have evolved over the years.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Editor/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Jane Yee
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kyotra.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Twenty years on and.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
The devastation left behind by Hurricane Katrina is still being felt.
The Category three hurricane made landfall on August twenty ninth,
two thousand and five, devastating parts of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama,
with New Orleans suffering catastrophic flooding due to levy failures.
(00:38):
About eighty percent of the city was inundated with water,
and while a mandatory evacuation order was made just one
day before landfall, many people up to one hundred and
fifty thousand did not or simply could not leave. The
official death toll is believed to be nearly fourteen. Later,
(01:01):
we'll speak to doctor Lauren Vannell Massi, University Senior lecturer
of Emergency Management, about how New Zealand's systems have evolved
over the years. But first on the Front Page, University
of Olbany Professor of political Science, Eric Stern is with
us to examine some of the painful lessons learned from Katrina.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
So, Eric, you are a.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Crisis and emergency management specialist, tell me twenty years on,
what can we learn from what happened with Hurricane Katrina.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
So Hurricane Katrina is really a pivotal event in the
history of emergency management in the United States. I think
there are lessons for many other countries in what happened
during Katrina. And actually, right at the outset, let me
say that while we often focus on what went wrong,
(02:00):
and most of the media reporting about what happened during
Hurricane Katrina focused on what went wrong, in fact, there
were many things that did go right. One of the
lasting images and probably we'll get back to that later
in terms of lessons, was the folks who got trapped
(02:21):
in New Orleans in the Superdome under horrific conditions, with
poor sanitation, toilets weren't working, issues with food and water,
issues with security, just horrendous conditions. But what a lot
of people don't know is that about eighty percent of
the population of New Orleans was evacuated by car. Before
(02:44):
that those were folks that had access to their own
vehicles or vehicles that were provided by friends or family.
And in fact, it was a textbook operation, very effective
what's called contra implementation of what's called contraflow, so they
take both sides of a major highway and have them
(03:07):
all going in the same direction, so you double the
bandwidth for exiting folks. As you can imagine, that's a
kind of tricky operation if people get on the highway
and the wrong direction. I guess, as tourists in New
Zealand probably sometimes do, since you guys are a drive
on the left, we drive on the right. That could
(03:29):
be very dangerous. And in fact, that was beautifully choreographed
by state police and others, and probably the most successful
evacuation Carboorne evacuation of a major city in modern history.
That being said, the problem was that about twenty percent
of the population ended up being left behind because the
(03:53):
decisions were made too late and the vehicles that were
needed to get people out were not available, And there
were many, many different reasons for it. But I do
want to make a general point, which is that even
in a case which is branded a failure, there are
likely to be successes, and even in a case where
(04:15):
it's celebrated as a great success, there are often lessons
to be learned about things not to do as well.
And so what people like I do is to try
to put events like this under a microscope and try
to pick out the good performances from the less good performances,
the systemic issues to try to figure out how to
do better in the future. And I've really dedicated most
(04:37):
of my career to doing that.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
In terms of Katrina and the events surrounding it, what
do they reveal about the importance of coordination between central
and local governments.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Well, so I just recently wrote an article about this,
which I think probably was what caught your attention. One
of the arguments that I make is that when it
comes to emergency response in these very large and complex disasters,
the chain of emergency response is only as strong as
(05:11):
the weakest link, and in fact, by definition, you're you're
going to have to work together across across these levels
of government, also across the public, private and nonprofit sectors,
and increasingly bringing in volunteers as well. One of the
problems during Hurricane Katrina was that local government was overwhelmed
(05:34):
by what was happening. The police force the fire, their
command and control was disrupted, a very human thing to do,
but a lot of people ended up trying to rescue
their their own loved ones. Number of studies have suggested
that an unusually high percentage of folks left their posts,
(05:56):
and that's something that you have to think about. One
of the world formal definitions social science definitions of disaster
is that and legal as well in the United States,
is that it's a situation that overwhelms the resources the
coping capacity of a jurisdiction. And so if the local
resources are not enough, you're going to need provincial or
(06:20):
central government, depending on how your system is organized. And
if the provincial is not enough, you need national Sometimes
you need international assistance as well.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
In terms of the miss and disinformation.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Of course, Katrina was twenty years ago, but do you
think it's gotten just so much worse with the invention
of social media? I mean, how do emergency management, management
and managers get around that.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
That's one of the biggest challenges that we face today
and there are a number of reasons for it. So,
first of all, as you said, the socio technical context,
the way we get our information today, the smart device
is social media means that information just flows much much faster.
We now have artificial intelligence as well, which means that
(07:08):
people can can fake images during the which Hurricane Helene
in North Carolina. Recently, there was an image of a
crying child that became the iconic image of the event,
but it turned out to be a manufactured image and
if you if you look very closely at it, you
(07:30):
could see tells that had to do with the shadows
on the boat that she was in. So the problem
is that there there are various bad actors or sometimes
people who are playing dirty political tricks, that have an
interest in spreading bad information. Sometimes it's for financial reasons.
(07:52):
There are a lot of scams that try to separate
disaster survivors from their their property or their or their money,
and these are people that are at their most vulnerable,
really terrible thing to do. Other times it's political motives,
you know, to to discredit the government's response to something.
We have in the United States a very polarized media
(08:15):
environment at the moment, and we've seen in a number
of events. Also during Hurricane Alina, North Carolina, there were
rumors spread that if you applied for aid from FEMA,
the Federal Emergency Management Agency, that they could confiscate your property.
People didn't dare to ask for help that was available
and was badly needed because they because of these rumors
(08:37):
and myths. So emergency managers have to try very hard
to get their message out in this very competitive, sometimes
toxic information environment.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
I know that when you sit on the steps of
a ports where home was to, or sleep on a
cod in a crowded shelter, it is hard to imagine
a bright path. But that future will come. The streets
of Biloxi and Gulf Court will again be filled with
lovely homes and the sound of children playing. The churches
of Alabama will have their broken steeples minted in their
(09:14):
congregation's hall. And here in New Orleans, the street cars
will once again rumble down Saint Charles, and the passionate
soul of a great city will return.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
In terms of Katrina, I know that leave no one
behind became a bit of a mantra there. How should
emergency managers make sure that the most vulnerable, like the elderly, disabled,
or people without a car, are included in all of
the plans well.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
So, one of the important innovations in American emergency management
after Katrina is something called the whole community emergency management concepts.
And actually this is something that has national counterparts. The
United Nations has promulgated a whole society approach to disaster resilience,
(10:10):
which is actually quite similar and the whole I should
say the whole community strategy was developed in part in
dialogue with pure countries including New Zealand, that was doing
some similar things. UK resilience had some of the same elements,
but basically the idea was that in the past, the
(10:31):
people who made the emergency management plans often were elites
that were not always making an effort to capture the
needs of the whole community, and the community was often
not included. It was a very top down process and
often the most vulnerable socioeconomic groups, ethnic minorities, disabled folks,
(10:58):
their needs were not reports entered at the table when
the emergency plans were made. They might not have been
included in emergency management exercises. The facilities that are used
to shelter people may not have been adapted to their needs,
and often we're not. In fact, post Katrina, the whole
(11:19):
community doctrine says, no, you can't make those plans, you know,
just having the officials and the professionals. You have to
invite the community in, you have to bring in the stakeholders,
you have to have conversations. You have to plan and
prepare and develop capabilities such that the most vulnerable are
not left behind. In fact, they need special attention. And
(11:42):
we know that the most vulnerable are often the ones
that are hit hardest in disasters, both both in terms
of the health consequences and in terms of the financial impact.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
What do you say is the most enduring image or
legacy of our haying Katrina four emergency managers?
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Well, I guess anyone today.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
So in terms of the images, again, I think it
was the folks who were left behind at the at
the Superdome. Or it was the contrast of President George W.
Bush congratulating his emergency manager on the great job that
he was doing, a guy named Michael Brown, so he said,
(12:24):
heck of a job, Brownie. And then two weeks later, Brown,
who was not a professional emergency manager, was fired. And
there are a bunch of reasons for that, and it
wasn't only his fault. Was a highly complex political environment,
and at that time FEMA was under the control of
(12:49):
the Department of Homeland Security, which it is now as well,
and there was there were complexities about or uncertainties about
who who was actually in charge what the the authority
of the FEMA administrator, who is the boss at FEMA,
what what authority that person would have there? There are many,
(13:09):
many aspects of the case that that are really memorable.
We learned some things about the power of the private sector.
Uh turned out that the the way that the private
sector uh big box stores and uh soorts like Walmart,
they were more effective at moving vital supplies quickly sometimes
(13:31):
than the public sector. UH and and and some of
the things that they did we were in an improvised
way turned out to be very important. That was built
into that whole community idea that we we we need
to also draw so not only take care of everybody,
leave no one behind, but also draw on the resources
(13:54):
of the whole society, including volunteers. Another legacy of Katrina
is a volunteer groups like the so called Cajun Navy.
These are folks with boats that go to two major disasters,
not just in Louisiana, but other parts of the country
too and help to rescue people when the public sector
(14:16):
official rescue services are completely overwhelmed. And actually that was
the case during the christ Church earthquakes as well. I'm
not as up to date on how things are in
New Zealand at the moment. But at that time, the
dominant mindset was if you have a big disaster, put
yellow tape around it and let the professionals do their job.
(14:39):
But if you have a disaster on the scale of
what happened in christ Church, there's just not enough official
responders to meet the needs. And so they had to
on the fly find ways of integrating community volunteers. And
here's the upside of the of the information technology that
(15:03):
we have. They use social media. To let me think,
it was the student volunteer Army and the Farming Army
UH which was spontaneously brought volunteers and the farmers had
heavy equipment you know that could be used for debris
removal and other tasks to help get christ Church on
(15:25):
its feet again. Actually, the New Zealand story there is
has been well documented and it's something that that other
parts of the world have learned from.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Thanks for joining us, Eric, that's a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
From earthquakes and eruptions to flooding and cyclons, New Zealand
has dealt with its fair share of natural disasters. Senior
Lecturer of Emergency Management at Massi University, Doctor Lauren Vannell
joins us to discuss what we could learn from the
failings of Katrina twenty years on. Lauren, we've just been
(16:08):
speaking about how the US emergency management works between federal,
state and local agencies.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
How does New Zealand's work and is there good communication there.
Speaker 5 (16:19):
Yeah, so we're a little bit lucky in some regards
being a bit smaller in New Zealand. Obviously we don't
have the federal system to worry about. That chain of
communication between you know, local people on the ground and
our national central government. It's a bit it's stronger, it's
more direct because there are fewer links in that chain.
So you know, it tends to work quite well. Obviously.
(16:42):
You know a few years ago we shifted from having
a Ministry of Civil Defense Emergency Management to having the
National Emergency Management Agency, which was a bit of a
bit of a shakeup. I think, you know, generally that's
been there's been a good change. I think it's helping
things work better. But you know, that's not to say
that we still can't improve these things. So where eagerly
anticipating more details of the Emergency Management Bill, which one
(17:05):
of the main points there is to help clarify some
of the roles and responsibilities at different levels, to help
sort of streamline some of that communication.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Is the communication something that we have gotten better at
over time here in New Zealand.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
I think definitely communication during crisis or emergencies in New
Zealand has improved over time. It varies a little bit
depending on the nature of the natural hazard event. So
you know, for example, as we saw during Cyclone Gabriel,
a lot of damage to the communication infrastructure made that
a challenge. It wasn't necessarily, you know, issues with the system,
(17:43):
but it's really hard to communicate when you don't have
self and coverage or internet connection. So definitely we're wanting
to try to find ways that we can allow communication
to occur between people on the ground to know what's
happening people outside the region, providing support in instances where
we may not have the full range of technological options
available for communication.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
When looking at Katrina, it's hard not to think about
what happened at the Superdome, right, so sixteen thousand evacuees
ended up there. They faced failed generators, poor security, dwindling supplies,
overflowing toilets. I mean, how important is it in an
emergency management crisis planning, so pre planning for these kind
(18:26):
of events just to make sure that you have the
places and supplies ready to go.
Speaker 5 (18:32):
Yeah, it's absolutely vital for a couple of reasons. So obviously,
once people are there, we want them to be safe.
We don't want to have hygiene issues leading to people
getting sick. You know, we need to make sure people
are comfortable and being looked after. But we also know
that if people don't have a if they don't know
where those shelters are, or if they don't think it's
(18:53):
going to be a good environment, they're less likely to evacuate.
So actually, one additional benefit of you know, communitating to
people where the shelters are, what they can expect that
we're ready to look after them, is that those people
are going to be more likely to evacuate and take
themselves out of danger with something like a storm or
a flood event if we're able to get more warning.
(19:15):
What what we'd like to see is also people considering
maybe whether they can go and stay with friends or relatives.
Any pressure we can take off those temporary evacuation shelters.
We obviously don't want, you know, sixteen thousand people descending
on a single place. Even if it's well prepared dealing
with that larger group, it's always going to be a challenge.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah. One thing Eric said to me that was quite
interesting and something that they learned from Katrina, is that
the impact of private companies and private businesses.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
He mentioned Walmart being really good at.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Not surprisingly, getting produced across large from parts.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Of the country.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Do you reckon that's something that New Zealanders do well,
because I know that looking back at some of there
are natural disasters, there is that community spirit really in
New Zealand already, right.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
Yeah, absolutely, And I mean it's easy to look at
Katrina and focus on all the bad that happened, but
there were some really good things that were seen during
that event. You know, corporations, businesses standing up to help people.
You know, people helping their neighbors, helping their friends, helping strangers.
Contrary to popular belief, disaster zones they're not usually full
(20:28):
of you know, crime and looting. It is usually people
helping each other. The private company is an interesting one.
I'm not entirely sure how much of that plays into
consideration around planning, but I know, for example, with the
new Emergency Management bill that's being worked on, there's going
to be consideration around roles and responsibilities for groups that
(20:51):
maybe haven't so much been officially included in the past.
I'm thinking particularly Ewe and Harper. We know in New
Zealand our Mardi community is really really good at standing
up and looking after you know, themselves, but also other
members of the community. The private company one is an
interesting question though. Definitely. You know, if we can find
(21:14):
anyone who's able to help take some of that burden
off of a disaster response is going to be helpful.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
How has New Zealand's emergency management framework changed over the years,
do you think well? Or are we really waiting to
see what ends up happening with this bill?
Speaker 5 (21:29):
So, I mean, I definitely I think the bill is
going to be a good step forward. So that the
Civil Defense Emergency Management Act that we've got at the moment,
it is from two thousand and two, so it's quite old,
but I mean there obviously has been amendments to that
to update it. A lot of you know, the work
that's done is based on the National Plan, which I
(21:51):
think our current one is from twenty fifteen. How local
seed and groups update their group plans regularly, so it's
not like we're still working to what we knew in
two thousand and two. But the update to some of
that underpinning legislation, I think is going to help move
forward towards more where we would want our emergency management
(22:13):
system to be.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
And lastly, how do you think New Zealand's emergency management
response differs to that of the rest of the world. Say,
what do we do better and what are some things
that we can perhaps do better?
Speaker 5 (22:26):
In yep, that's a great question, I think definitely, As
sort of I was saying, because we are a little
bit smaller, we have, you know, fewer levels of bureaucracy
than places like the US or Australia, which also has
a federal system, we can be a bit more agile.
It can be easier to get resources around where they
(22:49):
need to be, you know, including people in personnel. I
think one issue is that we have so many events
because we are prone to a lot of different nets
hazards that we see quite a lot of turnover and
quite a lot of burnout amongst our emergency management personnel.
All great people, really really passionate, but it is really
(23:10):
hard work. So I think more support for the people
doing this work, you know, including professionalization, so training, but
also in a psychological support helping them cope with the
you know, the challenges and difficulties of responding to these events,
so that you know, after one major event, we don't
(23:32):
then lose everyone because they're too tired and burnt out,
and then next time it's people going through it again.
It'll be great to see more of that experience retained
within the system.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Thanks for joining us, Lauren al.
Speaker 5 (23:44):
Race, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at NSID Herald dot co dot nz. The Front Page
is produced by Janey and Richard Martin, who is also
our editor.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday for another
look behind the headlines.
Kyotra.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Twenty years on and.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
The devastation left behind by Hurricane Katrina is still being felt.
The Category three hurricane made landfall on August twenty ninth,
two thousand and five, devastating parts of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama,
with New Orleans suffering catastrophic flooding due to levy failures.
(00:38):
About eighty percent of the city was inundated with water,
and while a mandatory evacuation order was made just one
day before landfall, many people up to one hundred and
fifty thousand did not or simply could not leave. The
official death toll is believed to be nearly fourteen. Later,
(01:01):
we'll speak to doctor Lauren Vannell Massi, University Senior lecturer
of Emergency Management, about how New Zealand's systems have evolved
over the years. But first on the Front Page, University
of Olbany Professor of political Science, Eric Stern is with
us to examine some of the painful lessons learned from Katrina.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
So, Eric, you are a.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Crisis and emergency management specialist, tell me twenty years on,
what can we learn from what happened with Hurricane Katrina.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
So Hurricane Katrina is really a pivotal event in the
history of emergency management in the United States. I think
there are lessons for many other countries in what happened
during Katrina. And actually, right at the outset, let me
say that while we often focus on what went wrong,
(02:00):
and most of the media reporting about what happened during
Hurricane Katrina focused on what went wrong, in fact, there
were many things that did go right. One of the
lasting images and probably we'll get back to that later
in terms of lessons, was the folks who got trapped
(02:21):
in New Orleans in the Superdome under horrific conditions, with
poor sanitation, toilets weren't working, issues with food and water,
issues with security, just horrendous conditions. But what a lot
of people don't know is that about eighty percent of
the population of New Orleans was evacuated by car. Before
(02:44):
that those were folks that had access to their own
vehicles or vehicles that were provided by friends or family.
And in fact, it was a textbook operation, very effective
what's called contra implementation of what's called contraflow, so they
take both sides of a major highway and have them
(03:07):
all going in the same direction, so you double the
bandwidth for exiting folks. As you can imagine, that's a
kind of tricky operation if people get on the highway
and the wrong direction. I guess, as tourists in New
Zealand probably sometimes do, since you guys are a drive
on the left, we drive on the right. That could
(03:29):
be very dangerous. And in fact, that was beautifully choreographed
by state police and others, and probably the most successful
evacuation Carboorne evacuation of a major city in modern history.
That being said, the problem was that about twenty percent
of the population ended up being left behind because the
(03:53):
decisions were made too late and the vehicles that were
needed to get people out were not available, And there
were many, many different reasons for it. But I do
want to make a general point, which is that even
in a case which is branded a failure, there are
likely to be successes, and even in a case where
(04:15):
it's celebrated as a great success, there are often lessons
to be learned about things not to do as well.
And so what people like I do is to try
to put events like this under a microscope and try
to pick out the good performances from the less good performances,
the systemic issues to try to figure out how to
do better in the future. And I've really dedicated most
(04:37):
of my career to doing that.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
In terms of Katrina and the events surrounding it, what
do they reveal about the importance of coordination between central
and local governments.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Well, so I just recently wrote an article about this,
which I think probably was what caught your attention. One
of the arguments that I make is that when it
comes to emergency response in these very large and complex disasters,
the chain of emergency response is only as strong as
(05:11):
the weakest link, and in fact, by definition, you're you're
going to have to work together across across these levels
of government, also across the public, private and nonprofit sectors,
and increasingly bringing in volunteers as well. One of the
problems during Hurricane Katrina was that local government was overwhelmed
(05:34):
by what was happening. The police force the fire, their
command and control was disrupted, a very human thing to do,
but a lot of people ended up trying to rescue
their their own loved ones. Number of studies have suggested
that an unusually high percentage of folks left their posts,
(05:56):
and that's something that you have to think about. One
of the world formal definitions social science definitions of disaster
is that and legal as well in the United States,
is that it's a situation that overwhelms the resources the
coping capacity of a jurisdiction. And so if the local
resources are not enough, you're going to need provincial or
(06:20):
central government, depending on how your system is organized. And
if the provincial is not enough, you need national Sometimes
you need international assistance as well.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
In terms of the miss and disinformation.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Of course, Katrina was twenty years ago, but do you
think it's gotten just so much worse with the invention
of social media? I mean, how do emergency management, management
and managers get around that.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
That's one of the biggest challenges that we face today
and there are a number of reasons for it. So,
first of all, as you said, the socio technical context,
the way we get our information today, the smart device
is social media means that information just flows much much faster.
We now have artificial intelligence as well, which means that
(07:08):
people can can fake images during the which Hurricane Helene
in North Carolina. Recently, there was an image of a
crying child that became the iconic image of the event,
but it turned out to be a manufactured image and
if you if you look very closely at it, you
(07:30):
could see tells that had to do with the shadows
on the boat that she was in. So the problem
is that there there are various bad actors or sometimes
people who are playing dirty political tricks, that have an
interest in spreading bad information. Sometimes it's for financial reasons.
(07:52):
There are a lot of scams that try to separate
disaster survivors from their their property or their or their money,
and these are people that are at their most vulnerable,
really terrible thing to do. Other times it's political motives,
you know, to to discredit the government's response to something.
We have in the United States a very polarized media
(08:15):
environment at the moment, and we've seen in a number
of events. Also during Hurricane Alina, North Carolina, there were
rumors spread that if you applied for aid from FEMA,
the Federal Emergency Management Agency, that they could confiscate your property.
People didn't dare to ask for help that was available
and was badly needed because they because of these rumors
(08:37):
and myths. So emergency managers have to try very hard
to get their message out in this very competitive, sometimes
toxic information environment.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
I know that when you sit on the steps of
a ports where home was to, or sleep on a
cod in a crowded shelter, it is hard to imagine
a bright path. But that future will come. The streets
of Biloxi and Gulf Court will again be filled with
lovely homes and the sound of children playing. The churches
of Alabama will have their broken steeples minted in their
(09:14):
congregation's hall. And here in New Orleans, the street cars
will once again rumble down Saint Charles, and the passionate
soul of a great city will return.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
In terms of Katrina, I know that leave no one
behind became a bit of a mantra there. How should
emergency managers make sure that the most vulnerable, like the elderly, disabled,
or people without a car, are included in all of
the plans well.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
So, one of the important innovations in American emergency management
after Katrina is something called the whole community emergency management concepts.
And actually this is something that has national counterparts. The
United Nations has promulgated a whole society approach to disaster resilience,
(10:10):
which is actually quite similar and the whole I should
say the whole community strategy was developed in part in
dialogue with pure countries including New Zealand, that was doing
some similar things. UK resilience had some of the same elements,
but basically the idea was that in the past, the
(10:31):
people who made the emergency management plans often were elites
that were not always making an effort to capture the
needs of the whole community, and the community was often
not included. It was a very top down process and
often the most vulnerable socioeconomic groups, ethnic minorities, disabled folks,
(10:58):
their needs were not reports entered at the table when
the emergency plans were made. They might not have been
included in emergency management exercises. The facilities that are used
to shelter people may not have been adapted to their needs,
and often we're not. In fact, post Katrina, the whole
(11:19):
community doctrine says, no, you can't make those plans, you know,
just having the officials and the professionals. You have to
invite the community in, you have to bring in the stakeholders,
you have to have conversations. You have to plan and
prepare and develop capabilities such that the most vulnerable are
not left behind. In fact, they need special attention. And
(11:42):
we know that the most vulnerable are often the ones
that are hit hardest in disasters, both both in terms
of the health consequences and in terms of the financial impact.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
What do you say is the most enduring image or
legacy of our haying Katrina four emergency managers?
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Well, I guess anyone today.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
So in terms of the images, again, I think it
was the folks who were left behind at the at
the Superdome. Or it was the contrast of President George W.
Bush congratulating his emergency manager on the great job that
he was doing, a guy named Michael Brown, so he said,
(12:24):
heck of a job, Brownie. And then two weeks later, Brown,
who was not a professional emergency manager, was fired. And
there are a bunch of reasons for that, and it
wasn't only his fault. Was a highly complex political environment,
and at that time FEMA was under the control of
(12:49):
the Department of Homeland Security, which it is now as well,
and there was there were complexities about or uncertainties about
who who was actually in charge what the the authority
of the FEMA administrator, who is the boss at FEMA,
what what authority that person would have there? There are many,
(13:09):
many aspects of the case that that are really memorable.
We learned some things about the power of the private sector.
Uh turned out that the the way that the private
sector uh big box stores and uh soorts like Walmart,
they were more effective at moving vital supplies quickly sometimes
(13:31):
than the public sector. UH and and and some of
the things that they did we were in an improvised
way turned out to be very important. That was built
into that whole community idea that we we we need
to also draw so not only take care of everybody,
leave no one behind, but also draw on the resources
(13:54):
of the whole society, including volunteers. Another legacy of Katrina
is a volunteer groups like the so called Cajun Navy.
These are folks with boats that go to two major disasters,
not just in Louisiana, but other parts of the country
too and help to rescue people when the public sector
(14:16):
official rescue services are completely overwhelmed. And actually that was
the case during the christ Church earthquakes as well. I'm
not as up to date on how things are in
New Zealand at the moment. But at that time, the
dominant mindset was if you have a big disaster, put
yellow tape around it and let the professionals do their job.
(14:39):
But if you have a disaster on the scale of
what happened in christ Church, there's just not enough official
responders to meet the needs. And so they had to
on the fly find ways of integrating community volunteers. And
here's the upside of the of the information technology that
(15:03):
we have. They use social media. To let me think,
it was the student volunteer Army and the Farming Army
UH which was spontaneously brought volunteers and the farmers had
heavy equipment you know that could be used for debris
removal and other tasks to help get christ Church on
(15:25):
its feet again. Actually, the New Zealand story there is
has been well documented and it's something that that other
parts of the world have learned from.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Thanks for joining us, Eric, that's a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
From earthquakes and eruptions to flooding and cyclons, New Zealand
has dealt with its fair share of natural disasters. Senior
Lecturer of Emergency Management at Massi University, Doctor Lauren Vannell
joins us to discuss what we could learn from the
failings of Katrina twenty years on. Lauren, we've just been
(16:08):
speaking about how the US emergency management works between federal,
state and local agencies.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
How does New Zealand's work and is there good communication there.
Speaker 5 (16:19):
Yeah, so we're a little bit lucky in some regards
being a bit smaller in New Zealand. Obviously we don't
have the federal system to worry about. That chain of
communication between you know, local people on the ground and
our national central government. It's a bit it's stronger, it's
more direct because there are fewer links in that chain.
So you know, it tends to work quite well. Obviously.
(16:42):
You know a few years ago we shifted from having
a Ministry of Civil Defense Emergency Management to having the
National Emergency Management Agency, which was a bit of a
bit of a shakeup. I think, you know, generally that's
been there's been a good change. I think it's helping
things work better. But you know, that's not to say
that we still can't improve these things. So where eagerly
anticipating more details of the Emergency Management Bill, which one
(17:05):
of the main points there is to help clarify some
of the roles and responsibilities at different levels, to help
sort of streamline some of that communication.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Is the communication something that we have gotten better at
over time here in New Zealand.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
I think definitely communication during crisis or emergencies in New
Zealand has improved over time. It varies a little bit
depending on the nature of the natural hazard event. So
you know, for example, as we saw during Cyclone Gabriel,
a lot of damage to the communication infrastructure made that
a challenge. It wasn't necessarily, you know, issues with the system,
(17:43):
but it's really hard to communicate when you don't have
self and coverage or internet connection. So definitely we're wanting
to try to find ways that we can allow communication
to occur between people on the ground to know what's
happening people outside the region, providing support in instances where
we may not have the full range of technological options
available for communication.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
When looking at Katrina, it's hard not to think about
what happened at the Superdome, right, so sixteen thousand evacuees
ended up there. They faced failed generators, poor security, dwindling supplies,
overflowing toilets. I mean, how important is it in an
emergency management crisis planning, so pre planning for these kind
(18:26):
of events just to make sure that you have the
places and supplies ready to go.
Speaker 5 (18:32):
Yeah, it's absolutely vital for a couple of reasons. So obviously,
once people are there, we want them to be safe.
We don't want to have hygiene issues leading to people
getting sick. You know, we need to make sure people
are comfortable and being looked after. But we also know
that if people don't have a if they don't know
where those shelters are, or if they don't think it's
(18:53):
going to be a good environment, they're less likely to evacuate.
So actually, one additional benefit of you know, communitating to
people where the shelters are, what they can expect that
we're ready to look after them, is that those people
are going to be more likely to evacuate and take
themselves out of danger with something like a storm or
a flood event if we're able to get more warning.
(19:15):
What what we'd like to see is also people considering
maybe whether they can go and stay with friends or relatives.
Any pressure we can take off those temporary evacuation shelters.
We obviously don't want, you know, sixteen thousand people descending
on a single place. Even if it's well prepared dealing
with that larger group, it's always going to be a challenge.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah. One thing Eric said to me that was quite
interesting and something that they learned from Katrina, is that
the impact of private companies and private businesses.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
He mentioned Walmart being really good at.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Not surprisingly, getting produced across large from parts.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Of the country.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Do you reckon that's something that New Zealanders do well,
because I know that looking back at some of there
are natural disasters, there is that community spirit really in
New Zealand already, right.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
Yeah, absolutely, And I mean it's easy to look at
Katrina and focus on all the bad that happened, but
there were some really good things that were seen during
that event. You know, corporations, businesses standing up to help people.
You know, people helping their neighbors, helping their friends, helping strangers.
Contrary to popular belief, disaster zones they're not usually full
(20:28):
of you know, crime and looting. It is usually people
helping each other. The private company is an interesting one.
I'm not entirely sure how much of that plays into
consideration around planning, but I know, for example, with the
new Emergency Management bill that's being worked on, there's going
to be consideration around roles and responsibilities for groups that
(20:51):
maybe haven't so much been officially included in the past.
I'm thinking particularly Ewe and Harper. We know in New
Zealand our Mardi community is really really good at standing
up and looking after you know, themselves, but also other
members of the community. The private company one is an
interesting question though. Definitely. You know, if we can find
(21:14):
anyone who's able to help take some of that burden
off of a disaster response is going to be helpful.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
How has New Zealand's emergency management framework changed over the years,
do you think well? Or are we really waiting to
see what ends up happening with this bill?
Speaker 5 (21:29):
So, I mean, I definitely I think the bill is
going to be a good step forward. So that the
Civil Defense Emergency Management Act that we've got at the moment,
it is from two thousand and two, so it's quite old,
but I mean there obviously has been amendments to that
to update it. A lot of you know, the work
that's done is based on the National Plan, which I
(21:51):
think our current one is from twenty fifteen. How local
seed and groups update their group plans regularly, so it's
not like we're still working to what we knew in
two thousand and two. But the update to some of
that underpinning legislation, I think is going to help move
forward towards more where we would want our emergency management
(22:13):
system to be.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
And lastly, how do you think New Zealand's emergency management
response differs to that of the rest of the world. Say,
what do we do better and what are some things
that we can perhaps do better?
Speaker 5 (22:26):
In yep, that's a great question, I think definitely, As
sort of I was saying, because we are a little
bit smaller, we have, you know, fewer levels of bureaucracy
than places like the US or Australia, which also has
a federal system, we can be a bit more agile.
It can be easier to get resources around where they
(22:49):
need to be, you know, including people in personnel. I
think one issue is that we have so many events
because we are prone to a lot of different nets
hazards that we see quite a lot of turnover and
quite a lot of burnout amongst our emergency management personnel.
All great people, really really passionate, but it is really
(23:10):
hard work. So I think more support for the people
doing this work, you know, including professionalization, so training, but
also in a psychological support helping them cope with the
you know, the challenges and difficulties of responding to these events,
so that you know, after one major event, we don't
(23:32):
then lose everyone because they're too tired and burnt out,
and then next time it's people going through it again.
It'll be great to see more of that experience retained
within the system.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Thanks for joining us, Lauren al.
Speaker 5 (23:44):
Race, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at NSID Herald dot co dot nz. The Front Page
is produced by Janey and Richard Martin, who is also
our editor.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday for another
look behind the headlines.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2
Season Two Out Now! Law & Order: Criminal Justice System tells the real stories behind the landmark cases that have shaped how the most dangerous and influential criminals in America are prosecuted. In its second season, the series tackles the threat of terrorism in the United States. From the rise of extremist political groups in the 60s to domestic lone wolves in the modern day, we explore how organizations like the FBI and Joint Terrorism Take Force have evolved to fight back against a multitude of terrorist threats.