December 26, 2024 • 20 mins
While The Front Page is on summer break, we’re taking a look back at some of the biggest news stories and top-rated episodes from the podcast in 2024.
On July 26th 1984, David Lange was sworn in as the 32nd Prime Minister of New Zealand.
His ascension into the country’s top job came after Robert Muldoon’s infamous 'Schnapps Election' ended his nine years in power.
Best remembered for enshrining New Zealand’s nuclear free status, Lange also oversaw controversial economic policies that ultimately divided his caucus and saw his time on the ninth floor only last five years.
For the 40th anniversary of his reign, we spoke with Newstalk ZB senior political correspondent Barry Soper – one of the few journalists who was there at the time and still working today.
New episodes return January 13th.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Audio Engineers: Paddy Fox, Richard Martin
Executive Producer: Ethan Sills
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Yoda.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is a summer special of
The Front Page, the NSID Heralds Daily News podcast. While
the Front Page is on summer break, we're taking a
look back at some of the biggest news stories and
top rated episodes from the podcast in twenty twenty four.
(00:26):
New episodes will return on January thirteenth. On July twenty six,
nineteen eighty four, David Longing was sworn in as the
thirty second Prime Minister of New Zealand. His accession to
the country's top job came after Robert Muldoon's infamous Schnapps
(00:49):
election ended his nine years in power. Best remembered for
enshrining New Zealand's nuclear free status, Longee also oversaw controversial
economic policies that ultimately divided his caucus and saw his
time on the ninth floor only last five years. For
(01:09):
the fortieth.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Anniversary of his reign, we spoke with Newstalks z'd been
senior political correspondent Barry Soper, one of the few journalists
who was there at the time and still working today.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Barry, let's start with an ending.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
A large part of the myth of Muldoon is how
it all ended with the Schnapps election.
Speaker 5 (01:31):
It doesn't give him much time to run up to
an election. Prime Minister doesn't give my apprentish much time
to run up to an election, does it.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
I understand you actually got a concession out of him
before the polling booths had even opened, right.
Speaker 5 (01:45):
Yes.
Speaker 6 (01:46):
Was fascinating because that particular election campaign was for Muldoon,
one of being off of space most of the time.
And when it came to the final address in Auckland,
I said to mulder And as he was making his
way in, can I have an interview with you? And
he said yep. I got up to his room. An
(02:06):
hour after he had finished speaking was shown in and
here was this little man slumped in a chair with
a bottle of red wine lying on its side, looking
dishevel and I gin reflected with a microphone in front
of him and said, mister Muldoon, do you think you've
won the election? And Muldourn shook his head from side
(02:27):
to side, and I said to him Prime, and as
this is radio, you've got to talk. Do you think
you've won the election? He said? And I couldn't believe
my ears. This is on the Thursday night before the pole,
so he had conceded defeat essentially. On that night, the
rest of the media had discarded his address because it
(02:50):
was like many of the others he had given during
the campaign, and went to the pub. And by the
time I got to the pub very late, I told
them that I had a scoop and that my n
who conceded defeat to David LONGEI and they couldn't believe it.
Muldourn called a news conference at eight o'clock the next morning,
I think it was, so he soved up pretty quickly.
(03:11):
He was on the airwaves with the interview that I
had with him and denied all knowledge of it, essentially
said that he was taken out of context, and of
course he wasn't. The question was quite simple, Have you
won the election?
Speaker 3 (03:25):
He said, nap, after nine years in power where he
had never won the popular vote. Was the country just
sick of Muldoon by then?
Speaker 5 (03:33):
Oh?
Speaker 6 (03:33):
I think absolutely they were tired of Muldourne. And I
don't think the country appreciated economically just how bad it was.
I mean, we lived what I would say in an
ice box. Everything was frozen, Wages were frozen, prices were frozen,
interest rates were frozen. You know, something had to give.
(03:55):
You'll remember that Rob Muldourn. He stayed on an office
for several days after the election, essentially refusing to vacate
the Prime Minister's chair, while embassies around the world were
being asked how much cash reserves did they have? And
meanwhile you had David Longe who wanted to call in
the IMF and other world bodies to essentially put New
(04:19):
Zealand and receivership. He decided against that on advice, fortunately,
and we survived, but survived through very difficult times in
the new government.
Speaker 5 (04:31):
It doesn't give you much time to run up to
an election from minister. Doesn't give my appanish much time
to run up to an election, does it. There is
no way mister Longey could have had enough members in
the House to govern the country. This is really what
I thought about, that he's a buffoon.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
July nineteen eighty four saw the country vote for change
in the form of David Longie.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
What are some of your earlier memories of him?
Speaker 6 (05:01):
Well, I remember very early on when David Longe got
into Parliament. He used to wear this big brown suit.
He had relatively long, lank black here and he wore
these very heavy rimmed glasses. And I remember going to
a party that long he was at, and he was
(05:22):
at that stage backbencher in Parliament, and he looked rather
forlorn and lonely, sitting in the background, and I went
over and had a chat to him and realized that
this man was extraordinarily clever, had a great way with words,
and little did I know that not too long later
he would be the Prime Minister of Museum.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Given there was this snap election, was Labor actually prepared
to take power.
Speaker 6 (05:48):
I don't think they really had appreciated just how serious
the finances of the country were in eighty four. After
the snap election, the country really was completely dire strait
and something had to be done. So Roger Douglas came in,
because you remember Rob Muldoon sat in the Prime Minister's
(06:09):
office refusing to devalue the dollar, and that was the
bigger argument at the time that the dollar needed to
be devalued. It was too high. And eventually the dollar
was devalued, but of course that opened up all sorts
of problems. For example, mortgage interest rates had gone from
the cap put on them by Rob muldourn of nine
(06:29):
for the first mortgage and eleven percent for the second,
as high as twenty two percent, So people really that
might have been struggling in nineteen eighty four, they were
in dire strait after the Roger Douglas David Longey government
came into power.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
What was it like.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
After those Muldoon years Barry which are generally noted in
the history books as being a bit grim politically and socially.
Did LONGI inherit a mess to clean.
Speaker 6 (06:55):
Up of a bigger mess than I think we've ever seen, well,
certainly than I've ever seen in this country. There were
all sorts of things going on as well because our
foreign policy. The Labor Party had gone into that election,
the snap election, on the anti nuclear stance, and George Schultz,
the Secretary of State for Ronald Reagan, happened to be
(07:19):
in town in the following week and he met with
David longe and I think it was made known to
him quite clearly that New Zealand was going to be
anti nuclear. So the American visits of their warships into
our ports were banned, along with a number of other things,
and even propulsion was banned. Even though David longe was
(07:42):
a bit softer on that, and the suggestion is that
when he had that chat with George Schultz, he said,
give me six months and we can sort through the
idea that propelled ships would not be allowed in port.
But then that burned up with the likes of Margaret
Wilson became Speaker but was the president of the party
(08:02):
at the time. They weren't prepared to live with that.
So essentially it was not just a financial issue that
the new Labor government had to clean up. It was
also the international foreign policy issue that David Longey had
to go on the front put off.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Well, when people think of Longie, they do think of
that nuclear free New Zealand part hey, in particular that
Oxford University debate. Would you agree that's probably the core
part of his legacy.
Speaker 6 (08:32):
Well, I think one thing that will be remembered. Certainly,
David Longiy will be remembered for that. His performance was amazing.
But it was not surprising to some of us that
knew that David Longey had such a quick wit. I mean,
here was debating Jerry Forwell and won the debate not surprisingly.
But when one of the young Oxford University students got
(08:54):
up to challenge Longie.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
What I should like to know, sir, is why you
don't one of the answers alliance for whether you are
snuggling up to the bomb or living in the peaceful
shadow of the bomb, New.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Zealand benefits, sir.
Speaker 5 (09:06):
And that's the question with which we would like an answer, sir.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
And I'm going to give it to you if you
hold your breath just for a moment.
Speaker 7 (09:12):
They did smell the uranium moment as you leave the word, and.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
It was a moment I think each to New Zealand's
history that David Longie was not just a good orator,
but a superb one. And I do remember one incident
of how Quickie was. So I remember a reporter yelling
out to David Longe and his way into a caucus
meeting Prime minister. Prime minister a word, and Longe looked
at them and said, wombat and walked into the caucus.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
The other key bit of legislation would be the economic
reforms that came to be known as Roger nomics. Can
you briefly explain what that actually was and why it
was so controversial?
Speaker 6 (09:53):
Well, it was controversial because, like I said, earlier. You know,
we saw interst rate shooting through the roof. We saw
New Zealand having to borrow the way that never borrowed before.
And the country was generally in a pretty poor state
in terms of the fact that we had been living
in an ice box and the ice had to thaw.
(10:14):
So those early years of the Longey government were really tough,
although people didn't know what they had in store for them.
They got back in eighty seven and that's when everything started.
That's when they started the asset sales program that was
basically to shore up what were the books that had failed,
and they sold off a number of state assets. And
(10:36):
in that eighty seven period, of course, we had the
falling out very publicly with David Longe and Roger Douglas,
ending in David Longe's resignation and the succession of first
of all Jeffrey Palmer and then Mike Moore as the
Prime minister.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
They Herald this week resurfaced an interview from our colleague
Audrey Young.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
She did it with Longe in two thousand and.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Four, just before his death.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Asked about taking heat from the left and the right
of the political spectrum, longi responded with, this is the
difficulty about talking about it without sounding big headed. But
you cannot speak of New Zealand now without my involvement
in what it has become. My judgment of that is
that it is change for the better, and my instinct
(11:26):
tells me that if it hadn't been for our administration,
there would have been calamity after calamity.
Speaker 6 (11:33):
What's your response to that, Well, I think there were
two aspects to that comment. But certainly you can't talk
about New Zealand without thinking about David Longie and that
comes down and it's still enduring of course as the
anti nuclear stance. But the other thing I think is
probably more important was the foundations that Roger Douglas made
(11:55):
for the economy in New Zealand. Now those foundations star
Owes have never been shifted by a success of government,
and that more than forty years on, and I think
that's the most important lasting legacy, although the anti nuclear
thing probably engages more New Zealanders.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Finally, Barry, do you think David Longey was a good
Prime minister.
Speaker 6 (12:20):
I think the combination of David Longee and Roger Tuglas
tackled what was a very difficult situation and it was
essential that the issues of the day were tackled in
the way they were. As a good prime minister, I
think David long was not a great leader of his
cabinet because there were faction throughout his leadership, ending with
(12:43):
of course him standing down. And even then Longe had
a good turn of phrase. I remember him sitting on
the stage with Jeffrey Palmer and Jeffrey was singing David
Longey's praises and Longe looks at Jeffrey and said, Jeffrey,
have changed my mind. And of course that out everybody
(13:04):
rolling with laughter. So he had a great sense of humor.
But as a prime minister and as a leader of
his own people in cabinet, I don't think he was
certainly anywhere near the best that I've seen in my
time there.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
Thanks for joining us, Barry.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
To further discuss David Longie and the Fourth Labor Government's legacy.
We're joined now by Victoria University of Wellington politics professor
Lara Grieves and started by putting that Longy quote to
her as well. I should note Lara's pet roosters make
a few appearances.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
I mean twenty years have obviously gone by since that quote,
and if we were to reassess that and kind of
look at the way that different prime ministers and finance
ministers since then have positioned themselves, they've kind of copied
his lead. So thinking about Ruth Richardson and Bolger and
all of them who came after him, they've kind of
said the same sort of thing about their legacies, and
(14:09):
that they also said that they were facing a financial crisis,
and Longie definitely faced a financial and constitutional crisis.
Speaker 7 (14:17):
I think it's just kind of a way that politicians
position their legacy because we never can really know what
would have happened if say Muldoon hadn't called the snap election,
would have happened to say Bill English was Prime minister
during COVID.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
We can't know those sorts of things. So I think
in hindsight you can say, well, actually I saved us.
But you know, I think a lot of people will
be more critical, especially in the twenty years that have passed.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
We spoke to Newstalks at bees Barry so but he
didn't think David Longi was a great leader of his
party or his cabinet. Due to some factions would you
agree with that.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
He's a really interesting figure, right, because he was clearly charismatic,
He had that presidential type quality. Most Kei we seem
to have a story about, like seeing him bumping into
him and being good one on one. Most people have
seen his quips, seen like his fluidity and debates and
in media interviews. So he's a liked, beloved figure. But
(15:16):
when it comes to politics, it's not just the razzle dazzle,
the baby cacussing. There's also a component of being in government,
being the prime minister, as in the primary minister, who
has to run cabinet, who has to keep a cabinet
and a party together. And I think there are real
criticisms of his leadership. From the left, we see criticisms
(15:38):
that he did let Roger Douglas kind of go down
his own ideological pathway and perhaps Longie didn't have those
people management skills. And from the right, you know, his
potentially criticizes not having that substantive policy direction himself. I mean,
I guess that's a left wing criticism too, But there's
definitely ways that you can critique him and critique his record.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
What do you think David Longi's legacy is is it
just the nuclear free energy and rogenomics.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Well, I think that when we teach New Zealand politics,
we often pull up Michael Joseph Savage and the creation
of the welfare state. The second thing we bring up
is the fourth Flabor government, and rogenomics scenario, liberalism and
David longee And we always play the uranium on your
brief that clip. We always play that. That's what we do,
That's what we fundamentally teach. There go, there's the first
year class. But the other thing that I think is
(16:27):
often overlooked as well as Longe's role in MMP, which
was more incidental than anything mistaking and then promising a referendum,
but part of that government. I mean, one of the
things that we can see today and their legacy is
that we do have the emmunp system. And I've been
studying electoral reform around the world and looking at different
countries and it's really hard to get across the line.
(16:48):
So that's been I think a bit of an incidental
legacy of that government. One of the things I've to
say is someone who's written a bit on policy history
as well, is they did get some sort of landmark
policy work underway the Royal Commission on Social Policy, which
is this giant breck of a thing, but to me
it represents one of the most well researched, most considered,
(17:10):
most consulted on policy reports ever in our history. So
there are pieces of work like that that that government
did as well, that are potentially overlooked but actually hold
up well to history when you read them.
Speaker 8 (17:21):
Now, he had skills that were incredible. Really. I remember
taking a report to him one day, four pages and
he gets a report and he go, oh, that looks
all right, Rotes, And I thought you have read that.
You can't have so I thought, I'll ask you a question,
but well, you know, I put it nicely. Damn well,
knew a bit of I.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Do you think we'll ever see that kind of chalk
and cheese type relationship between a prime minister and a
finance minister every gain, perhaps.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Not so much because of MNP and because like what
used to happen is labor and National had to be
these broad churches, so they had to bring in varied
people on left and very people on the right to
some extent, whereas now we have minor parties. So if
someone does have a different economic view. You know, there's
many options on the right. If someone has a different
economic view on the left, there's many options. They can
(18:12):
go to the Greens, they can perhaps go to Spartimaldi,
depending on who they are. You know that there's other
options there for them. So it's I think I'm likely
to see that again, partially because of our electoral system
now that you have these parties are less broad tense.
We also see as well in New Zealand politics, our
political parties tend to become a bit more I guess whipped,
(18:34):
or a bit more kind of in behind the leader
in a way, and you have a lot less kind
of independence and a lot less sort of backbenches, and
people will think cabinet because of you know, changes around
MP speaking out against their leader. So I would say
that we're probably not going to get that kind of
politics again unless there is some kind of other substantive
(18:55):
change there.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Do you think David Longi's enduring popular is warranted.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
I think so. I think that, you know, so much
of our politics now is about what Raymond Miller is
called the presidentialization of New Zealand politics. We have that
cultive leadership, cultured personality, type idea and in this case,
David Long is one of the big ones who was
a real character. He had that good kind of ability
that I think is important in New Zealand politics. You
had to take the person out of yourself a bit.
Speaker 6 (19:22):
You know.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
He had that in space, You had that charisma being
able to connect to people one on one, and you
think that that kind of character, whether you like the
substantive policies that they put in place or didn't, I
think that celebrity part of politics, he really does have
that down and that long term likability, that long term
liked political figure.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
Thanks for joining us, Lara.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
That said, for this episode of The Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidhrald dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
produced by Ethan Sills and sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm
Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or
wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday
(20:11):
for another look behind the headlines.
Yoda.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is a summer special of
The Front Page, the NSID Heralds Daily News podcast. While
the Front Page is on summer break, we're taking a
look back at some of the biggest news stories and
top rated episodes from the podcast in twenty twenty four.
(00:26):
New episodes will return on January thirteenth. On July twenty six,
nineteen eighty four, David Longing was sworn in as the
thirty second Prime Minister of New Zealand. His accession to
the country's top job came after Robert Muldoon's infamous Schnapps
(00:49):
election ended his nine years in power. Best remembered for
enshrining New Zealand's nuclear free status, Longee also oversaw controversial
economic policies that ultimately divided his caucus and saw his
time on the ninth floor only last five years. For
(01:09):
the fortieth.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Anniversary of his reign, we spoke with Newstalks z'd been
senior political correspondent Barry Soper, one of the few journalists
who was there at the time and still working today.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Barry, let's start with an ending.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
A large part of the myth of Muldoon is how
it all ended with the Schnapps election.
Speaker 5 (01:31):
It doesn't give him much time to run up to
an election. Prime Minister doesn't give my apprentish much time
to run up to an election, does it.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
I understand you actually got a concession out of him
before the polling booths had even opened, right.
Speaker 5 (01:45):
Yes.
Speaker 6 (01:46):
Was fascinating because that particular election campaign was for Muldoon,
one of being off of space most of the time.
And when it came to the final address in Auckland,
I said to mulder And as he was making his
way in, can I have an interview with you? And
he said yep. I got up to his room. An
(02:06):
hour after he had finished speaking was shown in and
here was this little man slumped in a chair with
a bottle of red wine lying on its side, looking
dishevel and I gin reflected with a microphone in front
of him and said, mister Muldoon, do you think you've
won the election? And Muldourn shook his head from side
(02:27):
to side, and I said to him Prime, and as
this is radio, you've got to talk. Do you think
you've won the election? He said? And I couldn't believe
my ears. This is on the Thursday night before the pole,
so he had conceded defeat essentially. On that night, the
rest of the media had discarded his address because it
(02:50):
was like many of the others he had given during
the campaign, and went to the pub. And by the
time I got to the pub very late, I told
them that I had a scoop and that my n
who conceded defeat to David LONGEI and they couldn't believe it.
Muldourn called a news conference at eight o'clock the next morning,
I think it was, so he soved up pretty quickly.
(03:11):
He was on the airwaves with the interview that I
had with him and denied all knowledge of it, essentially
said that he was taken out of context, and of
course he wasn't. The question was quite simple, Have you
won the election?
Speaker 3 (03:25):
He said, nap, after nine years in power where he
had never won the popular vote. Was the country just
sick of Muldoon by then?
Speaker 5 (03:33):
Oh?
Speaker 6 (03:33):
I think absolutely they were tired of Muldourne. And I
don't think the country appreciated economically just how bad it was.
I mean, we lived what I would say in an
ice box. Everything was frozen, Wages were frozen, prices were frozen,
interest rates were frozen. You know, something had to give.
(03:55):
You'll remember that Rob Muldourn. He stayed on an office
for several days after the election, essentially refusing to vacate
the Prime Minister's chair, while embassies around the world were
being asked how much cash reserves did they have? And
meanwhile you had David Longe who wanted to call in
the IMF and other world bodies to essentially put New
(04:19):
Zealand and receivership. He decided against that on advice, fortunately,
and we survived, but survived through very difficult times in
the new government.
Speaker 5 (04:31):
It doesn't give you much time to run up to
an election from minister. Doesn't give my appanish much time
to run up to an election, does it. There is
no way mister Longey could have had enough members in
the House to govern the country. This is really what
I thought about, that he's a buffoon.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
July nineteen eighty four saw the country vote for change
in the form of David Longie.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
What are some of your earlier memories of him?
Speaker 6 (05:01):
Well, I remember very early on when David Longe got
into Parliament. He used to wear this big brown suit.
He had relatively long, lank black here and he wore
these very heavy rimmed glasses. And I remember going to
a party that long he was at, and he was
(05:22):
at that stage backbencher in Parliament, and he looked rather
forlorn and lonely, sitting in the background, and I went
over and had a chat to him and realized that
this man was extraordinarily clever, had a great way with words,
and little did I know that not too long later
he would be the Prime Minister of Museum.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Given there was this snap election, was Labor actually prepared
to take power.
Speaker 6 (05:48):
I don't think they really had appreciated just how serious
the finances of the country were in eighty four. After
the snap election, the country really was completely dire strait
and something had to be done. So Roger Douglas came in,
because you remember Rob Muldoon sat in the Prime Minister's
(06:09):
office refusing to devalue the dollar, and that was the
bigger argument at the time that the dollar needed to
be devalued. It was too high. And eventually the dollar
was devalued, but of course that opened up all sorts
of problems. For example, mortgage interest rates had gone from
the cap put on them by Rob muldourn of nine
(06:29):
for the first mortgage and eleven percent for the second,
as high as twenty two percent, So people really that
might have been struggling in nineteen eighty four, they were
in dire strait after the Roger Douglas David Longey government
came into power.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
What was it like.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
After those Muldoon years Barry which are generally noted in
the history books as being a bit grim politically and socially.
Did LONGI inherit a mess to clean.
Speaker 6 (06:55):
Up of a bigger mess than I think we've ever seen, well,
certainly than I've ever seen in this country. There were
all sorts of things going on as well because our
foreign policy. The Labor Party had gone into that election,
the snap election, on the anti nuclear stance, and George Schultz,
the Secretary of State for Ronald Reagan, happened to be
(07:19):
in town in the following week and he met with
David longe and I think it was made known to
him quite clearly that New Zealand was going to be
anti nuclear. So the American visits of their warships into
our ports were banned, along with a number of other things,
and even propulsion was banned. Even though David longe was
(07:42):
a bit softer on that, and the suggestion is that
when he had that chat with George Schultz, he said,
give me six months and we can sort through the
idea that propelled ships would not be allowed in port.
But then that burned up with the likes of Margaret
Wilson became Speaker but was the president of the party
(08:02):
at the time. They weren't prepared to live with that.
So essentially it was not just a financial issue that
the new Labor government had to clean up. It was
also the international foreign policy issue that David Longey had
to go on the front put off.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Well, when people think of Longie, they do think of
that nuclear free New Zealand part hey, in particular that
Oxford University debate. Would you agree that's probably the core
part of his legacy.
Speaker 6 (08:32):
Well, I think one thing that will be remembered. Certainly,
David Longiy will be remembered for that. His performance was amazing.
But it was not surprising to some of us that
knew that David Longey had such a quick wit. I mean,
here was debating Jerry Forwell and won the debate not surprisingly.
But when one of the young Oxford University students got
(08:54):
up to challenge Longie.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
What I should like to know, sir, is why you
don't one of the answers alliance for whether you are
snuggling up to the bomb or living in the peaceful
shadow of the bomb, New.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Zealand benefits, sir.
Speaker 5 (09:06):
And that's the question with which we would like an answer, sir.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
And I'm going to give it to you if you
hold your breath just for a moment.
Speaker 7 (09:12):
They did smell the uranium moment as you leave the word, and.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
It was a moment I think each to New Zealand's
history that David Longie was not just a good orator,
but a superb one. And I do remember one incident
of how Quickie was. So I remember a reporter yelling
out to David Longe and his way into a caucus
meeting Prime minister. Prime minister a word, and Longe looked
at them and said, wombat and walked into the caucus.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
The other key bit of legislation would be the economic
reforms that came to be known as Roger nomics. Can
you briefly explain what that actually was and why it
was so controversial?
Speaker 6 (09:53):
Well, it was controversial because, like I said, earlier. You know,
we saw interst rate shooting through the roof. We saw
New Zealand having to borrow the way that never borrowed before.
And the country was generally in a pretty poor state
in terms of the fact that we had been living
in an ice box and the ice had to thaw.
(10:14):
So those early years of the Longey government were really tough,
although people didn't know what they had in store for them.
They got back in eighty seven and that's when everything started.
That's when they started the asset sales program that was
basically to shore up what were the books that had failed,
and they sold off a number of state assets. And
(10:36):
in that eighty seven period, of course, we had the
falling out very publicly with David Longe and Roger Douglas,
ending in David Longe's resignation and the succession of first
of all Jeffrey Palmer and then Mike Moore as the
Prime minister.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
They Herald this week resurfaced an interview from our colleague
Audrey Young.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
She did it with Longe in two thousand and.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Four, just before his death.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Asked about taking heat from the left and the right
of the political spectrum, longi responded with, this is the
difficulty about talking about it without sounding big headed. But
you cannot speak of New Zealand now without my involvement
in what it has become. My judgment of that is
that it is change for the better, and my instinct
(11:26):
tells me that if it hadn't been for our administration,
there would have been calamity after calamity.
Speaker 6 (11:33):
What's your response to that, Well, I think there were
two aspects to that comment. But certainly you can't talk
about New Zealand without thinking about David Longie and that
comes down and it's still enduring of course as the
anti nuclear stance. But the other thing I think is
probably more important was the foundations that Roger Douglas made
(11:55):
for the economy in New Zealand. Now those foundations star
Owes have never been shifted by a success of government,
and that more than forty years on, and I think
that's the most important lasting legacy, although the anti nuclear
thing probably engages more New Zealanders.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Finally, Barry, do you think David Longey was a good
Prime minister.
Speaker 6 (12:20):
I think the combination of David Longee and Roger Tuglas
tackled what was a very difficult situation and it was
essential that the issues of the day were tackled in
the way they were. As a good prime minister, I
think David long was not a great leader of his
cabinet because there were faction throughout his leadership, ending with
(12:43):
of course him standing down. And even then Longe had
a good turn of phrase. I remember him sitting on
the stage with Jeffrey Palmer and Jeffrey was singing David
Longey's praises and Longe looks at Jeffrey and said, Jeffrey,
have changed my mind. And of course that out everybody
(13:04):
rolling with laughter. So he had a great sense of humor.
But as a prime minister and as a leader of
his own people in cabinet, I don't think he was
certainly anywhere near the best that I've seen in my
time there.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
Thanks for joining us, Barry.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
To further discuss David Longie and the Fourth Labor Government's legacy.
We're joined now by Victoria University of Wellington politics professor
Lara Grieves and started by putting that Longy quote to
her as well. I should note Lara's pet roosters make
a few appearances.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
I mean twenty years have obviously gone by since that quote,
and if we were to reassess that and kind of
look at the way that different prime ministers and finance
ministers since then have positioned themselves, they've kind of copied
his lead. So thinking about Ruth Richardson and Bolger and
all of them who came after him, they've kind of
said the same sort of thing about their legacies, and
(14:09):
that they also said that they were facing a financial crisis,
and Longie definitely faced a financial and constitutional crisis.
Speaker 7 (14:17):
I think it's just kind of a way that politicians
position their legacy because we never can really know what
would have happened if say Muldoon hadn't called the snap election,
would have happened to say Bill English was Prime minister
during COVID.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
We can't know those sorts of things. So I think
in hindsight you can say, well, actually I saved us.
But you know, I think a lot of people will
be more critical, especially in the twenty years that have passed.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
We spoke to Newstalks at bees Barry so but he
didn't think David Longi was a great leader of his
party or his cabinet. Due to some factions would you
agree with that.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
He's a really interesting figure, right, because he was clearly charismatic,
He had that presidential type quality. Most Kei we seem
to have a story about, like seeing him bumping into
him and being good one on one. Most people have
seen his quips, seen like his fluidity and debates and
in media interviews. So he's a liked, beloved figure. But
(15:16):
when it comes to politics, it's not just the razzle dazzle,
the baby cacussing. There's also a component of being in government,
being the prime minister, as in the primary minister, who
has to run cabinet, who has to keep a cabinet
and a party together. And I think there are real
criticisms of his leadership. From the left, we see criticisms
(15:38):
that he did let Roger Douglas kind of go down
his own ideological pathway and perhaps Longie didn't have those
people management skills. And from the right, you know, his
potentially criticizes not having that substantive policy direction himself. I mean,
I guess that's a left wing criticism too, But there's
definitely ways that you can critique him and critique his record.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
What do you think David Longi's legacy is is it
just the nuclear free energy and rogenomics.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Well, I think that when we teach New Zealand politics,
we often pull up Michael Joseph Savage and the creation
of the welfare state. The second thing we bring up
is the fourth Flabor government, and rogenomics scenario, liberalism and
David longee And we always play the uranium on your
brief that clip. We always play that. That's what we do,
That's what we fundamentally teach. There go, there's the first
year class. But the other thing that I think is
(16:27):
often overlooked as well as Longe's role in MMP, which
was more incidental than anything mistaking and then promising a referendum,
but part of that government. I mean, one of the
things that we can see today and their legacy is
that we do have the emmunp system. And I've been
studying electoral reform around the world and looking at different
countries and it's really hard to get across the line.
(16:48):
So that's been I think a bit of an incidental
legacy of that government. One of the things I've to
say is someone who's written a bit on policy history
as well, is they did get some sort of landmark
policy work underway the Royal Commission on Social Policy, which
is this giant breck of a thing, but to me
it represents one of the most well researched, most considered,
(17:10):
most consulted on policy reports ever in our history. So
there are pieces of work like that that that government
did as well, that are potentially overlooked but actually hold
up well to history when you read them.
Speaker 8 (17:21):
Now, he had skills that were incredible. Really. I remember
taking a report to him one day, four pages and
he gets a report and he go, oh, that looks
all right, Rotes, And I thought you have read that.
You can't have so I thought, I'll ask you a question,
but well, you know, I put it nicely. Damn well,
knew a bit of I.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Do you think we'll ever see that kind of chalk
and cheese type relationship between a prime minister and a
finance minister every gain, perhaps.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Not so much because of MNP and because like what
used to happen is labor and National had to be
these broad churches, so they had to bring in varied
people on left and very people on the right to
some extent, whereas now we have minor parties. So if
someone does have a different economic view. You know, there's
many options on the right. If someone has a different
economic view on the left, there's many options. They can
(18:12):
go to the Greens, they can perhaps go to Spartimaldi,
depending on who they are. You know that there's other
options there for them. So it's I think I'm likely
to see that again, partially because of our electoral system
now that you have these parties are less broad tense.
We also see as well in New Zealand politics, our
political parties tend to become a bit more I guess whipped,
(18:34):
or a bit more kind of in behind the leader
in a way, and you have a lot less kind
of independence and a lot less sort of backbenches, and
people will think cabinet because of you know, changes around
MP speaking out against their leader. So I would say
that we're probably not going to get that kind of
politics again unless there is some kind of other substantive
(18:55):
change there.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Do you think David Longi's enduring popular is warranted.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
I think so. I think that, you know, so much
of our politics now is about what Raymond Miller is
called the presidentialization of New Zealand politics. We have that
cultive leadership, cultured personality, type idea and in this case,
David Long is one of the big ones who was
a real character. He had that good kind of ability
that I think is important in New Zealand politics. You
had to take the person out of yourself a bit.
Speaker 6 (19:22):
You know.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
He had that in space, You had that charisma being
able to connect to people one on one, and you
think that that kind of character, whether you like the
substantive policies that they put in place or didn't, I
think that celebrity part of politics, he really does have
that down and that long term likability, that long term
liked political figure.
Speaker 4 (19:43):
Thanks for joining us, Lara.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
That said, for this episode of The Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidhrald dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
produced by Ethan Sills and sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm
Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or
wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday
(20:11):
for another look behind the headlines.
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