October 21, 2025 • 21 mins
In seven minutes, thieves entered the Louvre in Paris and made off with eight “priceless” jewels.
The necklaces, earrings, brooches, and crowns has belonged to an array of 19th century royals, including Napoleon’s wife Marie-Amelie, and empress Eugenie, married to Napoleon III.
The gang were organised, professionals, and had clearly scoped the world’s most visited gallery and knew exactly what they were after.
But, after you’ve jumped the hurdles of security – what do you do with this highly recognisable royal regalia?
Today on The Front Page, art historian, author, and curator Dr Penelope Jackson is with us to take a look at heists, and whether it’s really like the movies.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Editor/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Jane Yee
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kiyota.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
In seven minutes, thieves entered the Louver in.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Paris and made off with eight priceless jewels. The necklaces, earrings,
brooches and crowns had belonged to an array of nineteenth
century royals, including Napoleon's wife Marie Amilie and Empress Eujaney,
married to Napoleon the Third. The gang were organized professionals
(00:40):
and had clearly scoped the world's most visited gallery and
knew exactly what they were after. But after you've jumped all.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Of those hurdles of security, what.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Do you do with this highly recognizable royal regalia? Today
on the front Page, art historian, author and curator doctor
Penelope Jackson is with us to take a look at
heists in general and whether it's really like the movies.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Right, So, Penelope, here's what we know so far.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
It happened on a Sunday about nine thirty am local time,
shortly after the museum opened.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Four thieves used a vehicle.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Mounted mechanical lift to access the Gallery of Apolo via
a balcony. They cut through the glass panes, got in
strettened guards, stole the items from two glass display cases,
tried to set fire to the truck below, dropped a
crown in their escape. I mean, it's all the makings
of a Netflix movie. From your expertise, what was your
(01:43):
first reaction to seeing this?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yeah, well, look, when I woke out and read about
it in the news, I kind of instantly thought about
the brazenness of it, the audacity of how they went
about it in broad daylight, just you know, half an
hour after the Louve opened, And then I thought, it's
obviously very sad for the French nation. I mean, this
is you know, part of their history, their cultural history,
(02:08):
et cetera. So that's really sad because you know, they
these items, it's highly likely they won't come back or
in the form that they were stolen in. But also
it made me think about you know, every day in
the Louver there's about thirty there's a cap of thirty
thousand visitors. That's a lot of people that go there
every day. And if you're you know, a tourist there
(02:29):
and this is your once in a lifetime trip to
the Louver and you were in that vicinity. How very
scary that is. And I don't think, you know, the
media hasn't really kind of made that point in a
lot of instances that really Yes, the security has been
kind of put into a question, but actually the five
(02:52):
security guards there were threatened, and if you know, they
protected the visitors that were in that space. So yeah,
I was thinking how scary that would be to be
in that inside that Netflix movie, as you said that
would be It would be an awful situation.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean, without giving away too many ideas,
I suppose how are heists usually done?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Is this plan fairly typical or is it just atypical
given the brazeness.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Like you said, look, every heist is different because obviously
it happens in a different place and there would be
a different motivation or there after different objects. But I
think in this case, you know, there would have been
a lot of planning. They would have thought about when
to or have it. How you know, they'd organized a
(03:40):
flat deck truck with a furniture ladder that you know, moves,
and then they had motor scooters ready when they exited.
They had glass cutters for the window. So yeah, this
was highly organized. They probably would have visited that gallery
several times and done their homework beforehand to work out
(04:03):
how they would get in move quickly, because the whole
thing happened, you know, inside seven minutes. Well another report
said actually four minutes. Well, you know that's how long
it takes to boil an egg. You know, it's pretty
quick to drive up park, get that ladder up to
the second floor, cut the window, get in, cut the cases,
get the objects out in escape. And clearly they were
(04:26):
in a hurry because they dropped you know, one item
though that's actually damaged now because they dropped it. So yeah, yeah,
highly organized.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Does this show that there are glaring gaps in the
loovers security measures?
Speaker 1 (04:40):
That's obviously what people are asking and certainly when something
like this happens, it will put their security under scrutiny,
There's no doubt about that. But you know, the alarms
did ring, so they worked, and there were five guards nearby.
But as I said, thirty thousand people visit a day.
They're in excess of thirty thousand objects on display at
(05:01):
any one time. You know, it's a huge organization, and
you know it's always that difficult thing that you want
people to see objects and enjoy them, and they these
pieces were in glass cases. But you know, how else
can you protect them. I mean it's you know, the
(05:22):
Mona Lisa of course in the same buildings, she's behind glass,
and that actually deflects from seeing the painting up close,
having that experience. And so yeah, it's a really hard
call between you know, having the objects out there for
visitors to enjoy an experience and protecting them. But yeah, look,
(05:46):
I'm sure the louver will be looking at their security.
There will be you know, a full investigation and report.
But it's a bit of a kind of whenever this happens,
it's a bit of a wake up call for us,
the museums and galleries around the world to think, Okay,
let's not be lax. Let's just you know, rethink what
(06:06):
we do. So in a way, I guess that's that's significant.
But you know, the other thing about security guards is
that they have a huge responsibility to protect objects around
the world in museums and galleries, and yet you will
find that they most of them, the majority will be
(06:26):
on minimum wage, and so often if there are budget cuts,
they get rid of security stuff. I mean, just last
week the art Getter, New South Wales announced cuts and
among those cuts we're security stuff. So you know, it's
it's a difficult situation, but I mean you've got to
(06:47):
protect the objects because museums about are about caring and
looking after objects.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
In September I saw that thieves took porcelain worth about
six million euros from a museum in France. The whole
could well have been commissioned by a foreign buyer. The
article I read said, how prevalent is this kind of thing.
I'm guessing these people who have so much money that
the only thing they're left wanting in the world is
(07:15):
something that money can't buy.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah, I mean it's kind of what we call stolen
to order. And look, you can only speculate in this situation.
You know why those works, why those particular works were targeted.
As I said, you've got, you know, something like thirty
eight thousand objects in the louver on display and they
went very specifically for these nine objects. But you know,
(07:39):
like anything, you've got to think the other side. Okay,
they've taken them, but what can the new owner do
with them? And very little you know, they could keep
them in a secret cupboard at home and look at them.
I mean with the pieces of jewelry, you can't exactly
turn up to the met Gala wearing them because now
they are all over the internet, which is, you know,
(08:00):
the fabulous thing about the world that we live in
now and technology that those images. Any any heist, whether
it's a painting, you know, royal jewels, porcelain, whatever, they
can get images out there straight away, So anyone trying
to sell them is it's going to come unstuck basically. Yeah,
so there's kind of they could be stolen to order,
(08:23):
but you know, we don't know the motivation.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Well, it's really unfortunate actually because with the jewels, obviously,
they're so recognizable that the only thing that you can
assume that someone would do when they steal such a
thing is chop them up into pieces and melt them down.
Is that what usually happens?
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Yeah, Look, I think in this kind of situation, it's
not like a painting where you can't change its physical
properties very easily. You know, in this situation, they could.
I mean one of those I think it was the
Tiara or the Crown had literally had thousands of gems
in it, you know, diamonds, emerald, you name it, and
they were big two, so they could all be split
(09:04):
up separately and divided, and you know, that's highly lightly
that could happen. They could melt down the metals as well,
and that's a pretty quick process. The problem is, unless
they go to someone who really knows what they're doing,
those stones could actually be damaged in the process of
(09:26):
removal or breaking down. And the other thing is, of
course they've got no provenance either, in other words, the
history of ownership. You know, they can't legitimately sell them
because someone's going to say, oh, well, you know, where
did this great, big diamond, the size of it whatever
come from? And of course they can't. They haven't got
a you know that have to make up a backstory.
(09:48):
So yeah, so it's kind of that that's you know,
complicated in itself because it also involves more people. I mean,
you've got the four people who were part of the
highest and then I think there were other people involved
in the getaway. And then if you then go to
someone to melt down precious metals and then someone else
to actually split up the stones, you're you know, network
(10:11):
is widening, and do you only have to get someone
to spillbean's kind of thing. So yeah, it's a complex
situation for them. And the other thing is that unfortunately,
if they were going to do that, they'd probably be
onto it pretty quickly so that they you know, they
could say basically, so they haven't got the evidence if
(10:32):
they were caught.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah, and given there are so many people involved, what
are the chances of someone squealing perhaps, and what are
the chances of these items actually being recovered.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, it's interesting because if you look at other cases,
there's one that I've been known about for quite some
time and have been writing about, and there it was
a case in nineteen seventy seven in Sydney there was
an exhibition of the fabulous Australian artist Grace Crossington Smith
and had an exhibition at the Dela Gallery the Macquarie
Galleries and twenty eight of her paintings were stolen by
(11:06):
three men overnight and now they have never ever emerged.
And it's really interesting that you know that three people
fifty years basically and nothing has you know, nothing has
been recovered. So yeah, but you only have to get
one person who you know, as I said, spills the
(11:28):
beans kind of thing. So it's difficult. So in terms
of recovery though, they reckon and this is a really
hard thing to measure. That only about ten percent of
artworks objects are ever recovered internationally, and that's a really
low figure.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
Jewelry expert Alexander Legue fears the worst will never find them.
He tells me, diamonds don't beep when you take them
through airport's security. He assumes the treasures will be broken
up and sold for a fraction of their real value.
But that's not the worst of it. What does the
(12:10):
loss of these jewels mean to France? This is France
itself that has been stolen from us, He says. It's
not just a piece of history, it's a piece of
our country.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Tell me about the most notable heists in New Zealand. Ah,
most notable, Well, I guess the ones that are probably
most public. The first one I would say would be
in nineteen ninety eight from Auckland Art Gallery. There was
an armed robbery and the guy took a paytan called
(12:45):
Still on Top by the French painter James Tisso. It
was actually recovered, but it had been really badly damaged,
and it took the conservative Sarah Hillary there are two
years to piece back together, but it was so that's
you know, kind of empowering. And then the other one
is more recent, was on April four's days two and seventeen,
(13:09):
the two Linda portraits were yes from the International Arts
centerum Parnell and you know, look again you wake up
and see the story and think, oh my god, first
of April, is this you know, a joke, And of
course it was not. It took five years for those
works to come back to be recovered, so they were
really big news stories at the time. They were significant
(13:32):
art works and you know, there were lots of questions
asked around both of those, certainly Auckland Art Gallery when
the work had been completely conserved it they did a
wonderful marketing job of relaunching the painting out into the
community and they.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Told the story of the work that you know, the
two year program to basically literally piece it back together too,
So that was really good and the staff there, I know,
we're always very proud that more people i think saw
that exhibition than we to see the baby Lion cubs
at the zoo or something like that. It was, you know,
really really popular because it was a story because it
(14:13):
was an armed robbery and the security guard was injured
during the process. It was all very dramatic. It was
very Netflix like. It stayed in the news for a
long time. Yeah, So is.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
That why people, you think, really grab on to these
kind of heighst stories. I mean, you've written books about
the subject. Why are people so interested in these things?
Speaker 1 (14:39):
I think, you know, deep down, people really care about
what in our collections because it's part of our collective history.
Whether you know it's the Royal Jewels in France or
taong are here or whatever. People care about that because
they're irreplaceable. You know, a nineteenth century French painting in Auckland.
(15:00):
You can't just buy another one. You know, they're highly valuable,
or you know, the artist has been dead for so
long it's not like they can just whip up another one.
So people actually really really care about about our culture,
about objects, and I think that's the intrigue. Yeah. Maybe
it's also because there's kind of a point of difference.
(15:21):
It's like, I've been amazed at how much international media
interest there has been about this story, you know, and
yet it's a really it's a tragic story in many
ways because it's part of history that might never come
back to the loover. You know, those precious objects.
Speaker 5 (15:46):
But here's a mistake. They dropped one of these broaches.
Speaker 6 (15:49):
They only rob what nine I think it was nine rotures,
you know diamond like pieces. Well, you just drop a
ninth of your whole entire load right there.
Speaker 5 (15:59):
That's an amateur move. I never dropped a piece of
jewelry ever.
Speaker 6 (16:02):
In twenty five jewelry stores and eighteen million dollars, it's
not going to happen.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
They also got the motorcycles caught right away. I mean,
they're done there. What are you gonna find? They found
a vest, they found wanted a construction vest. They're ready.
Speaker 6 (16:16):
So they made a couple of I call them avait mistakes,
but they did get away.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
With a lot.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
And we often talk about money behind these things, but
many of these pieces are just completely They're priceless, right,
you can't put a number on them in terms of
what worldwide I suppose what has been the biggest highst
or something that has never been recovered that's remained a mystery?
(16:44):
Because I know that the Mona Lisa was taken and recovered.
Is there anything out there that you know remains to
be seen.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Could be hanging in some billionaires condo or.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Something in the alaya like in the James Bond movie.
Speaker 5 (17:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Look, there's a couple of points there that I'd make.
One is that, you know, we talk about monetary value,
but of course there's obviously different kinds of value. There's
sentimental value, and there's cultural value, art historical value and
so on. There was there's a case that's still unsolved
unrecovered works in Boston Isabella Stuart Gardner Museum. They had
(17:24):
thirteen works taken back in nineteen ninety one. And you know,
we're talking about Rembrands and a Vermea, a man a
really really significant artworks and they were taken Saint Patrick's day.
The two guys had dressed up as police officers and
(17:46):
managed to get into the building and they took these
works away and they have never ever been recovered. And
what is really airy, because I've actually visited the museum
earlier this year, are the empty frames. You go in
there and there are still the frames where they actually
took the artworks from, which you know, as a poignant
reminder that there used to be a Vermea there, or
(18:08):
a rem Rand or a renoir, etc. And you kind
of think, you know, where are they now, and so
that's been a long time and they say that they
can't even put a figure on there, but basically it's millions,
you know. But as you said, that irreplaceable you know,
doesn't matter how much. If you know, if you could
(18:29):
get the insurance money, can you replace them? Possibly not? Yeah,
I mean in Australia there was the story in nineteen
eighty six from the National Gallery Victoria in Melbourne. There
Picasso was taken a nineteen thirty seven painting called Weeping
Woman and at the time, you know, there was a
(18:50):
lot of information out there in the media about how
much it was worth, you know, in dollar CeNSE kind
of thing, and it's now worth you know, supposedly a
lot more. But the great thing was that it was recovered,
you know, so that was a feel good story kind
of thing. So look, you know, sometimes there are recoveries
but sometimes not. But yeah, putting that dollar figure on
(19:11):
it's kind of in a way, it's irrelevant. It's irrelevant.
It's actually because it's also you know, people say, oh,
how much is that worth? It's like, well, it's not
like a public art museum are even going to sell
the work. So yeah, it's kind of a bit of
a moot point.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
And in terms of I mean, what does one do
with a stolen painting because with the jewels and everything,
I understand the logistics around, you know, getting someone to
unpiece it and then trying to sell off individual pieces.
But if somebody has the Mona Lisa or a Rembrand
in their living room, it's going to be instantly recognizable,
(19:49):
isn't it.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
So what is the marketplace?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Is there some kind of dark, deep dark corners of
the web where you can sell it or.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Well there is, but I mean the thing is you
still wouldn't you know, have it above your metal beasts.
You know kind of thing is still going to be
found out. So unless you've got it in a cupboard
and you just kind of open the doors and have
a little look every day, yeah, it's very hard, that's right.
So and you can't move these goods, you know, the
value of them, you know, decreases hugely obviously because yeah,
(20:22):
you can't sell them because you haven't got any proof
of ownership. You haven't got any provenance with that work.
So it's you know, who's going to fork out all
that money for something like that. So yes, absolutely, it's
the kind of people. They had a brick wall, I guess,
and realize that they can't sell these works. Sometimes in
that case, the works might be recovered, they might give
(20:45):
a tip off whatever, you know. But yeah, you're right,
what can you do with them?
Speaker 2 (20:50):
I can't think of anything more selfish.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Yeah, exactly, that's a really nice way of putting it,
because you're deprived so many people of their cultural history. Absolutely,
it's a very very selfish act.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Thank you so much for joining us, Penelope.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
You're welcome. Thanks Chelsea.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who's also our editor.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look
behind the headlines.
Kiyota.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
In seven minutes, thieves entered the Louver in.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Paris and made off with eight priceless jewels. The necklaces, earrings,
brooches and crowns had belonged to an array of nineteenth
century royals, including Napoleon's wife Marie Amilie and Empress Eujaney,
married to Napoleon the Third. The gang were organized professionals
(00:40):
and had clearly scoped the world's most visited gallery and
knew exactly what they were after. But after you've jumped all.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Of those hurdles of security, what.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Do you do with this highly recognizable royal regalia? Today
on the front Page, art historian, author and curator doctor
Penelope Jackson is with us to take a look at
heists in general and whether it's really like the movies.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Right, So, Penelope, here's what we know so far.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
It happened on a Sunday about nine thirty am local time,
shortly after the museum opened.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Four thieves used a vehicle.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Mounted mechanical lift to access the Gallery of Apolo via
a balcony. They cut through the glass panes, got in
strettened guards, stole the items from two glass display cases,
tried to set fire to the truck below, dropped a
crown in their escape. I mean, it's all the makings
of a Netflix movie. From your expertise, what was your
(01:43):
first reaction to seeing this?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yeah, well, look, when I woke out and read about
it in the news, I kind of instantly thought about
the brazenness of it, the audacity of how they went
about it in broad daylight, just you know, half an
hour after the Louve opened, And then I thought, it's
obviously very sad for the French nation. I mean, this
is you know, part of their history, their cultural history,
(02:08):
et cetera. So that's really sad because you know, they
these items, it's highly likely they won't come back or
in the form that they were stolen in. But also
it made me think about you know, every day in
the Louver there's about thirty there's a cap of thirty
thousand visitors. That's a lot of people that go there
every day. And if you're you know, a tourist there
(02:29):
and this is your once in a lifetime trip to
the Louver and you were in that vicinity. How very
scary that is. And I don't think, you know, the
media hasn't really kind of made that point in a
lot of instances that really Yes, the security has been
kind of put into a question, but actually the five
(02:52):
security guards there were threatened, and if you know, they
protected the visitors that were in that space. So yeah,
I was thinking how scary that would be to be
in that inside that Netflix movie, as you said that
would be It would be an awful situation.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean, without giving away too many ideas,
I suppose how are heists usually done?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Is this plan fairly typical or is it just atypical
given the brazeness.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Like you said, look, every heist is different because obviously
it happens in a different place and there would be
a different motivation or there after different objects. But I
think in this case, you know, there would have been
a lot of planning. They would have thought about when
to or have it. How you know, they'd organized a
(03:40):
flat deck truck with a furniture ladder that you know, moves,
and then they had motor scooters ready when they exited.
They had glass cutters for the window. So yeah, this
was highly organized. They probably would have visited that gallery
several times and done their homework beforehand to work out
(04:03):
how they would get in move quickly, because the whole
thing happened, you know, inside seven minutes. Well another report
said actually four minutes. Well, you know that's how long
it takes to boil an egg. You know, it's pretty
quick to drive up park, get that ladder up to
the second floor, cut the window, get in, cut the cases,
get the objects out in escape. And clearly they were
(04:26):
in a hurry because they dropped you know, one item
though that's actually damaged now because they dropped it. So yeah, yeah,
highly organized.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Does this show that there are glaring gaps in the
loovers security measures?
Speaker 1 (04:40):
That's obviously what people are asking and certainly when something
like this happens, it will put their security under scrutiny,
There's no doubt about that. But you know, the alarms
did ring, so they worked, and there were five guards nearby.
But as I said, thirty thousand people visit a day.
They're in excess of thirty thousand objects on display at
(05:01):
any one time. You know, it's a huge organization, and
you know it's always that difficult thing that you want
people to see objects and enjoy them, and they these
pieces were in glass cases. But you know, how else
can you protect them. I mean it's you know, the
(05:22):
Mona Lisa of course in the same buildings, she's behind glass,
and that actually deflects from seeing the painting up close,
having that experience. And so yeah, it's a really hard
call between you know, having the objects out there for
visitors to enjoy an experience and protecting them. But yeah, look,
(05:46):
I'm sure the louver will be looking at their security.
There will be you know, a full investigation and report.
But it's a bit of a kind of whenever this happens,
it's a bit of a wake up call for us,
the museums and galleries around the world to think, Okay,
let's not be lax. Let's just you know, rethink what
(06:06):
we do. So in a way, I guess that's that's significant.
But you know, the other thing about security guards is
that they have a huge responsibility to protect objects around
the world in museums and galleries, and yet you will
find that they most of them, the majority will be
(06:26):
on minimum wage, and so often if there are budget cuts,
they get rid of security stuff. I mean, just last
week the art Getter, New South Wales announced cuts and
among those cuts we're security stuff. So you know, it's
it's a difficult situation, but I mean you've got to
(06:47):
protect the objects because museums about are about caring and
looking after objects.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
In September I saw that thieves took porcelain worth about
six million euros from a museum in France. The whole
could well have been commissioned by a foreign buyer. The
article I read said, how prevalent is this kind of thing.
I'm guessing these people who have so much money that
the only thing they're left wanting in the world is
(07:15):
something that money can't buy.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah, I mean it's kind of what we call stolen
to order. And look, you can only speculate in this situation.
You know why those works, why those particular works were targeted.
As I said, you've got, you know, something like thirty
eight thousand objects in the louver on display and they
went very specifically for these nine objects. But you know,
(07:39):
like anything, you've got to think the other side. Okay,
they've taken them, but what can the new owner do
with them? And very little you know, they could keep
them in a secret cupboard at home and look at them.
I mean with the pieces of jewelry, you can't exactly
turn up to the met Gala wearing them because now
they are all over the internet, which is, you know,
(08:00):
the fabulous thing about the world that we live in
now and technology that those images. Any any heist, whether
it's a painting, you know, royal jewels, porcelain, whatever, they
can get images out there straight away, So anyone trying
to sell them is it's going to come unstuck basically. Yeah,
so there's kind of they could be stolen to order,
(08:23):
but you know, we don't know the motivation.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Well, it's really unfortunate actually because with the jewels, obviously,
they're so recognizable that the only thing that you can
assume that someone would do when they steal such a
thing is chop them up into pieces and melt them down.
Is that what usually happens?
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Yeah, Look, I think in this kind of situation, it's
not like a painting where you can't change its physical
properties very easily. You know, in this situation, they could.
I mean one of those I think it was the
Tiara or the Crown had literally had thousands of gems
in it, you know, diamonds, emerald, you name it, and
they were big two, so they could all be split
(09:04):
up separately and divided, and you know, that's highly lightly
that could happen. They could melt down the metals as well,
and that's a pretty quick process. The problem is, unless
they go to someone who really knows what they're doing,
those stones could actually be damaged in the process of
(09:26):
removal or breaking down. And the other thing is, of
course they've got no provenance either, in other words, the
history of ownership. You know, they can't legitimately sell them
because someone's going to say, oh, well, you know, where
did this great, big diamond, the size of it whatever
come from? And of course they can't. They haven't got
a you know that have to make up a backstory.
(09:48):
So yeah, so it's kind of that that's you know,
complicated in itself because it also involves more people. I mean,
you've got the four people who were part of the
highest and then I think there were other people involved
in the getaway. And then if you then go to
someone to melt down precious metals and then someone else
to actually split up the stones, you're you know, network
(10:11):
is widening, and do you only have to get someone
to spillbean's kind of thing. So yeah, it's a complex
situation for them. And the other thing is that unfortunately,
if they were going to do that, they'd probably be
onto it pretty quickly so that they you know, they
could say basically, so they haven't got the evidence if
(10:32):
they were caught.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah, and given there are so many people involved, what
are the chances of someone squealing perhaps, and what are
the chances of these items actually being recovered.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, it's interesting because if you look at other cases,
there's one that I've been known about for quite some
time and have been writing about, and there it was
a case in nineteen seventy seven in Sydney there was
an exhibition of the fabulous Australian artist Grace Crossington Smith
and had an exhibition at the Dela Gallery the Macquarie
Galleries and twenty eight of her paintings were stolen by
(11:06):
three men overnight and now they have never ever emerged.
And it's really interesting that you know that three people
fifty years basically and nothing has you know, nothing has
been recovered. So yeah, but you only have to get
one person who you know, as I said, spills the
(11:28):
beans kind of thing. So it's difficult. So in terms
of recovery though, they reckon and this is a really
hard thing to measure. That only about ten percent of
artworks objects are ever recovered internationally, and that's a really
low figure.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
Jewelry expert Alexander Legue fears the worst will never find them.
He tells me, diamonds don't beep when you take them
through airport's security. He assumes the treasures will be broken
up and sold for a fraction of their real value.
But that's not the worst of it. What does the
(12:10):
loss of these jewels mean to France? This is France
itself that has been stolen from us, He says. It's
not just a piece of history, it's a piece of
our country.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Tell me about the most notable heists in New Zealand. Ah,
most notable, Well, I guess the ones that are probably
most public. The first one I would say would be
in nineteen ninety eight from Auckland Art Gallery. There was
an armed robbery and the guy took a paytan called
(12:45):
Still on Top by the French painter James Tisso. It
was actually recovered, but it had been really badly damaged,
and it took the conservative Sarah Hillary there are two
years to piece back together, but it was so that's
you know, kind of empowering. And then the other one
is more recent, was on April four's days two and seventeen,
(13:09):
the two Linda portraits were yes from the International Arts
centerum Parnell and you know, look again you wake up
and see the story and think, oh my god, first
of April, is this you know, a joke, And of
course it was not. It took five years for those
works to come back to be recovered, so they were
really big news stories at the time. They were significant
(13:32):
art works and you know, there were lots of questions
asked around both of those, certainly Auckland Art Gallery when
the work had been completely conserved it they did a
wonderful marketing job of relaunching the painting out into the
community and they.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Told the story of the work that you know, the
two year program to basically literally piece it back together too,
So that was really good and the staff there, I know,
we're always very proud that more people i think saw
that exhibition than we to see the baby Lion cubs
at the zoo or something like that. It was, you know,
really really popular because it was a story because it
(14:13):
was an armed robbery and the security guard was injured
during the process. It was all very dramatic. It was
very Netflix like. It stayed in the news for a
long time. Yeah, So is.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
That why people, you think, really grab on to these
kind of heighst stories. I mean, you've written books about
the subject. Why are people so interested in these things?
Speaker 1 (14:39):
I think, you know, deep down, people really care about
what in our collections because it's part of our collective history.
Whether you know it's the Royal Jewels in France or
taong are here or whatever. People care about that because
they're irreplaceable. You know, a nineteenth century French painting in Auckland.
(15:00):
You can't just buy another one. You know, they're highly valuable,
or you know, the artist has been dead for so
long it's not like they can just whip up another one.
So people actually really really care about about our culture,
about objects, and I think that's the intrigue. Yeah. Maybe
it's also because there's kind of a point of difference.
(15:21):
It's like, I've been amazed at how much international media
interest there has been about this story, you know, and
yet it's a really it's a tragic story in many
ways because it's part of history that might never come
back to the loover. You know, those precious objects.
Speaker 5 (15:46):
But here's a mistake. They dropped one of these broaches.
Speaker 6 (15:49):
They only rob what nine I think it was nine rotures,
you know diamond like pieces. Well, you just drop a
ninth of your whole entire load right there.
Speaker 5 (15:59):
That's an amateur move. I never dropped a piece of
jewelry ever.
Speaker 6 (16:02):
In twenty five jewelry stores and eighteen million dollars, it's
not going to happen.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
They also got the motorcycles caught right away. I mean,
they're done there. What are you gonna find? They found
a vest, they found wanted a construction vest. They're ready.
Speaker 6 (16:16):
So they made a couple of I call them avait mistakes,
but they did get away.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
With a lot.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
And we often talk about money behind these things, but
many of these pieces are just completely They're priceless, right,
you can't put a number on them in terms of
what worldwide I suppose what has been the biggest highst
or something that has never been recovered that's remained a mystery?
(16:44):
Because I know that the Mona Lisa was taken and recovered.
Is there anything out there that you know remains to
be seen.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Could be hanging in some billionaires condo or.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Something in the alaya like in the James Bond movie.
Speaker 5 (17:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Look, there's a couple of points there that I'd make.
One is that, you know, we talk about monetary value,
but of course there's obviously different kinds of value. There's
sentimental value, and there's cultural value, art historical value and
so on. There was there's a case that's still unsolved
unrecovered works in Boston Isabella Stuart Gardner Museum. They had
(17:24):
thirteen works taken back in nineteen ninety one. And you know,
we're talking about Rembrands and a Vermea, a man a
really really significant artworks and they were taken Saint Patrick's day.
The two guys had dressed up as police officers and
(17:46):
managed to get into the building and they took these
works away and they have never ever been recovered. And
what is really airy, because I've actually visited the museum
earlier this year, are the empty frames. You go in
there and there are still the frames where they actually
took the artworks from, which you know, as a poignant
reminder that there used to be a Vermea there, or
(18:08):
a rem Rand or a renoir, etc. And you kind
of think, you know, where are they now, and so
that's been a long time and they say that they
can't even put a figure on there, but basically it's millions,
you know. But as you said, that irreplaceable you know,
doesn't matter how much. If you know, if you could
(18:29):
get the insurance money, can you replace them? Possibly not? Yeah,
I mean in Australia there was the story in nineteen
eighty six from the National Gallery Victoria in Melbourne. There
Picasso was taken a nineteen thirty seven painting called Weeping
Woman and at the time, you know, there was a
(18:50):
lot of information out there in the media about how
much it was worth, you know, in dollar CeNSE kind
of thing, and it's now worth you know, supposedly a
lot more. But the great thing was that it was recovered,
you know, so that was a feel good story kind
of thing. So look, you know, sometimes there are recoveries
but sometimes not. But yeah, putting that dollar figure on
(19:11):
it's kind of in a way, it's irrelevant. It's irrelevant.
It's actually because it's also you know, people say, oh,
how much is that worth? It's like, well, it's not
like a public art museum are even going to sell
the work. So yeah, it's kind of a bit of
a moot point.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
And in terms of I mean, what does one do
with a stolen painting because with the jewels and everything,
I understand the logistics around, you know, getting someone to
unpiece it and then trying to sell off individual pieces.
But if somebody has the Mona Lisa or a Rembrand
in their living room, it's going to be instantly recognizable,
(19:49):
isn't it.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
So what is the marketplace?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Is there some kind of dark, deep dark corners of
the web where you can sell it or.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Well there is, but I mean the thing is you
still wouldn't you know, have it above your metal beasts.
You know kind of thing is still going to be
found out. So unless you've got it in a cupboard
and you just kind of open the doors and have
a little look every day, yeah, it's very hard, that's right.
So and you can't move these goods, you know, the
value of them, you know, decreases hugely obviously because yeah,
(20:22):
you can't sell them because you haven't got any proof
of ownership. You haven't got any provenance with that work.
So it's you know, who's going to fork out all
that money for something like that. So yes, absolutely, it's
the kind of people. They had a brick wall, I guess,
and realize that they can't sell these works. Sometimes in
that case, the works might be recovered, they might give
(20:45):
a tip off whatever, you know. But yeah, you're right,
what can you do with them?
Speaker 2 (20:50):
I can't think of anything more selfish.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Yeah, exactly, that's a really nice way of putting it,
because you're deprived so many people of their cultural history. Absolutely,
it's a very very selfish act.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Thank you so much for joining us, Penelope.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
You're welcome. Thanks Chelsea.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who's also our editor.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look
behind the headlines.
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