October 3, 2024 • 18 mins
Infrastructure is top of the agenda for the Government for the last months of 2024.
The Prime Minister this week released his Q4 action plan, with plenty of targets focussing on getting things built.
Among the 43 objectives is the highly controversial fast-track approvals bill, which it’s hoped will speed up the delivery of regional and national projects of significance.
The focus on infrastructure comes a week after the Government announced Dunedin’s new hospital could be downgraded due to budget concerns.
To discuss houses, roads, hospitals - and that niggly issue of budgets - today on The Front Page, we’re joined by Infrastructure Minister Chris Bishop.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
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Producer: Ethan Sills
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kiodra.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Infrastructure is
top of the agenda for the government for the last
months of twenty twenty four. The Prime Minister this week
released his Q four Action Plan, with plenty of targets
(00:28):
focusing on getting things built. Among the forty three objectives
is the highly controversial Fast Track Approvals Bill, which it's
hoped will speed up the delivery of regional and national
projects of significance. The focus on infrastructure comes a week
(00:49):
after the government announced Dunedin's new hospital could be downgraded
due to budget concerns. To discuss houses, roads, hospitals and
that niggli issue of budgets. Today on the Front Page,
we're joined by Infrastructure Minister Chris Bishop. Minister this latest
(01:11):
action plan from the government. Do you think these have
been a success so far? These action plans? Have you
achieved everything you've wanted from them so far?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Absolutely.
Speaker 5 (01:20):
Chris Luxon as Prime Minister has did a real focus
for as ministers in the public service on getting things
done and getting results and being really clear about what
we're trying to achieve. And so we started at the
end of last year and we've been rolling on through
twenty twenty four and the vast bulk of things we
want to accomplish.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Every quarter have been done.
Speaker 5 (01:37):
So it's about setting a focus for the public service
around what we try and deliver and for.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Ministers as well.
Speaker 5 (01:42):
So it's been working well so far and looking forward
to Quarter four, which of course has started now, well it's.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
The big one.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Hey, infrastructure is the focus of the latest one. Do
you think you can solve our infrastructure woes in the
next quarter?
Speaker 4 (01:56):
And if only that was true.
Speaker 5 (01:57):
There's a lot of things we've got to do to
get better infrastructure and better deliver in New Zealand. But
there's a few things in the Quarter four plan which
will help. Passing the fast track fill it into law
this quarter will make a difference in terms of consenting.
We've got a couple of resource management bills working their
way through the Parliament as well, and looking forward to
some decisions around infrastructure funding and financing for new housing
(02:18):
as well. So there's quite a lot on the agenda,
lots to do, but you know, there's much more to
do beyond this quarter. If it be solved in one
quarter that it'd be a great thing, but that's not
going to happen.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, Well, one of the main things you want to achieve, hey,
this quarter is finalizing that Fast Track Approvals Bill.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
What's the point of this bill from your perspective.
Speaker 5 (02:35):
Well, we've got an infrastructure deficit, and we've got a
housing crisis, and we've got very ambitious climate goals and
we need more renewable energy and you know we just
simply can't do that with our current planning system. So
the Fast Track Bill is all about making it easier
to get on and build the projects that New Zealand
needs for the future right around the country, for everything
from mining to quarrying to renewable energy, through to housing
(02:57):
and broader infrastructure projects. So it's not about deathic creating
the environment or sacrificing the importance of the environment. But
it's about cutting through the red tape. You know, it
shouldn't take eight years to consent a wind farm, for example.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
That's nuts.
Speaker 5 (03:10):
You know, we should be getting on and building these
projects because the zeeland needs them.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
And when it comes to that bill, how confident are
you that we won't have another leaky home saga situation.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
Oh, very confident.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
This is not about sacrificing environmental protections or quality. It's
about cutting through the red tape and green tape to
make it easy to do things.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Well, I'm sure Bulger's government assured the same thing back
in the nineties though.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
Right, yeah, But I mean Fasstrack is not about the
Building Act, for example, the Building Code. This is about
resource consenting and other permits he required, like the Wildlife Act,
Public Works.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
Act and things like that. So it's not about the
Building Act.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
And you know it's been well chemist what happened there
in the early nineties and then later on reforms lead
into the leaky homes of the early two thousands.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
It's not about that then. It was quite distinct issues.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
And when it comes to that bill, including appointing a
panel to projects, do you think you've done enough to
appease the fears over those environmental concerns.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Well, look, I.
Speaker 5 (04:04):
Think you're never going to appease everybody, and that with
people out there who just be radically opposed to fast.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
Track whatever we do.
Speaker 5 (04:10):
But people should bear in mind we did base quite
a lot of the substance and the process of the
law based on what the last government did as well.
I mean, they had their own version of fast track
through the COVID nineteen period, and admittedly ours is larger
in scope and bigger, but you know, the substance and
some of the processes are the same.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
So you're never going to satisfy everybody.
Speaker 5 (04:27):
But you know, we've made some sensible changes to the
bill to try and ameliorate or mitigate some of the.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
Concerns that have been expressed.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
And you know, I listened to those concerns and good faith,
and we've made some changes to the bill, and you know,
whether or not it satisfies everybody was suspect it won't,
but you know, we're going.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
To charge on.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
If we want to build a new road.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Say but midway through we find that a family of
endangered birds or skinks or something it calls the area home.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
What happens then?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Are these the kind of things that get projects tied
up in the environment core.
Speaker 5 (04:55):
It's typically not halfway through a project, because as part
of the process of getting resourced sent and permissions to
do various things, you've got to do quite a bit
of pre work before you go off and get a
resource consent. So I think it'd be quite a rare
circumstance in which you're building a road and you happen
to come across a you know, endangered species or something.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
You know, that would be a very very unusual situation.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Didn't it happen with Transmission Gully. I'm just going off
memory here.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Well, Transmission Gully had a lot of different issues. I mean,
it was a whole other ca Well, it was.
Speaker 5 (05:23):
It was a very complex piece of engineering, and they
did have resource consenting challenges with the Regional Council for
a variety of complicated reasons. And I would put Transmission
Gully in the category of a project that was actually delayed.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Because of resource consenting.
Speaker 5 (05:36):
So one of the things they missed, i think from memory,
two or three earthworks seasons because they're waiting for various
different consents before they could go and build it.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
It's one of the reasons why it took so long.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
So that is actually a bit of a clacic case
study as to why things take a while. But you know,
no one wants to see the destruction of endangered species
as a result of projects that are built through frustrated.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Studship plan is not dark planned and if there is
a mineral.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
If there is a.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Mining opportunity and it's impeded by a blind frog, goodbye Fredy.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
When it comes to roads of national and regional significance,
how are we going to pay for them?
Speaker 5 (06:16):
Well, ultimately they'll be paid for by a combination of
road users and the Crown. And the way we pay
for roads in New Zealand is primarily out.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Of field texas and road user charges.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
That's the primary mechanism because the ultimately road users pay
for the roads that they use. We're looking at using
tolls as an additional mechanism to help pay for the
roads because they provide the revenue stream to help the
financing of some of these roads. And so we've made
a commitment to do that as a coalition government. And
you know many New Zealanders will be familiar with toll
roads overseas Sydney and Brisbane and Melbourne and Featherfield as
(06:47):
well in Europe for example. We've got to roads New
Zealand right now. I've got the Northern Gateway north of Aukland,
got top of toll roads around Toron. They have plenty
they do. It's just the New Zealand right now, we're
just saying we want to make more use of them.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Why haven't we started using to roads more and more
like the rest of the world has, do you think?
Speaker 4 (07:03):
I think there's a variety of reasons for that.
Speaker 5 (07:05):
I think there's probably a view that when you drive
on a road, you've already paid for it because it's
been built and you pay petrol tax, and that's true
up to a point, but also tolling is just an
alternative mechanism to paying for the use of the roads
as well.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
I think some people would probably argue, you know, when you.
Speaker 5 (07:19):
Have paid two dollars eighty or whatever, you know, it's
slightly frustrating and annoying to have to do that. So
there's a sort of basic administration that people don't like.
But it's actually pretty easy to do these days. So
I think politicians have probably been a bit fearful on
the past of authorizing the use of toll roads.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
But you know, the reality is the roads have.
Speaker 5 (07:34):
To be paid for, and holding is a thing that
can bring forward the construction of roads that wouldn't otherwise happen,
or might happen later than they otherwise would.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
My colleague Thomas Coglan last month wrote about a report
that had been written by the Infrastructure Commission for you
about the roads of national significance in Northland. The commissioner
warned that this road network between Auckland and Funradai alone
would eat up ten percent of the country's infrastructure over
the next twenty five years.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Is that justifiable?
Speaker 5 (08:03):
Well, we're having a good look at that road and
it's a really important connector for Northland to Auckland and
one of the best things we can do for the
economy of Northland to make it better connected to its
larger economic market of Auckland its surrounding area. So you know,
we take on board the Infrastructure Commission advice and we've
got a big job to do over the next few
years when it comes to funding the roads and the
infrastructure we need around the country.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Ten percent is a pretty big chunk ky. Someone in
in the cargo probably won't care about that road.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
No, you know, everyone's a strong advocate for the particular
area of the country that you know when they want
to see investment, and this is just the example of
the challenge we've got as a country where you know,
we have a between one hundred and two hundred million
dollar infrastructure deficit that's been built up over twenty to
thirty years and it's going to take quite a long
time to address that, and that's why we're really focused
on getting the system right around infrastructure investment. We're creating
(08:50):
a new funding and financing agency, National Infrastructure Agency. We're
looking at the instructur Commission to doing a thirty year
plan for the country to try and build a bit
more by partisan consensus around what.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Projects we need.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
We are looking at new tools like toll roads, you know,
new funding mechanisms like our value capture and different forms
of rates. It's the simplest way to put it to
capture some of the value of public sector investment in infrastructure.
So we're doing all that we can across the whole
range of different workstreams across the government to redress our
infrastructure deficit.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Why haven't we gotten international investment in some of these
roads and infrastructure.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Do you think are we just that opposed to it?
Speaker 5 (09:35):
Well, that welcome that hasn't been put out for that
in the past. So you know, the previous government had
a particular aversion to the use of private capital to help.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Address our infrastructure needs. We don't. We're very open minded
to it.
Speaker 5 (09:48):
So that's been quite a shift, and there is a
degree of interest offshore and investment into New Zealand. Our
foreign investment laws are very hostile to private capital flowing
into the country. We've got one of the most hostile
foreign investment regimes in the developed world, and Gompment stones
some work on that. It's part of the coalition agreement
with the act Party obviously as well. So we want
to make it easier to invest in New Zealand. So
the variety of reasons in this work underway on all
(10:10):
of those things.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
Once we've got more to say about that, we'll say it.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
While we're on infrastructure to need in hospital, Chris, how
can a projects budget jump from around one point two
billion dollars to an estimated three billion dollars?
Speaker 4 (10:24):
Yeah, well, very good question.
Speaker 5 (10:25):
This is part of the issue with the new to
need and hospital project is it's been a bit of
a shamozzle all the way back in twenty seventeen when
cindera June said they'd start construction in the fift three
years and here we are in twenty twenty four and
we've got half an outpatient building being built and they
haven't started the impatient building seven years on, and it's
been a very troubled project right from the start, and
unfortunately there's been a real lack of transparency around the
(10:46):
project over the last few years and we've now inherited
it and we're just trying to be as upfront and
transparent with the public about what the actual facts are.
And you know, I realize that people are unhappy about that,
but I genuinely feel we've got a duty to be
upfront with people about the problems with the project. I mean,
the site was selected in twenty eighteen. They bought the
old Cad Prefectory site. They spent eleven million dollars on
(11:09):
the land, so they got the land pretty cheap, but
they also had to buy about fifty five million bucks
worth of land around the Cad Prefectory site because they
actually needed more than than they thought. The land is contaminated,
it's on a swamp. It's on very marshy, swampy land,
so that has necessitated quite a lot of design work
to make changes around that. It's surrounded by two different
state highways, so it's a very very challenging site that
(11:31):
the hospital is currently designed to be built on. And
that has driven a lot of cost escalation.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
It sounds like that site shouldn't have been chosen in
the first place.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
Well, I don't want to, I thought, I don't want
to get into litigating the path because that site has
been chosen, and it was chosen by the previous government.
The project is so complex that you know, it was
really hard to find a contracted a bit on the
project and they had to do what's called an early
contractor engagement process where basically the current lead contractor or
the current contractor that have been helping, as I understand
(12:01):
it anyways, that have been helping to design up the
speck of the project so they can actually price it properly.
So that that in itself has been an interesting process.
The reality is that an extremely complex project. People say,
you know, well, how can it be that a hospital
cost getting near three billion dollars? And I had exactly
the same reaction. I asked exactly the same questions as
the publican now asking, and those are the facts. And
(12:22):
as Infrastructure Minister, alongside Shane and the rest of the team,
you know, we've got to deal with that and you know,
we're just trying to We've inherited a really, really tough situation,
and we are trying to do what is right for
the people of to need and but also what's right
for the country and get the project back on track
as quickly as we possibly can so that we can
move forward.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
The people of this region are hopping mad best demon
about this depreciation of the hospital that they've.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Been waiting for us for so long.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
This project is in people's hearts and it will not
They will not be messed with lot in even one
story of the new child block would mean the new
hospital would have fewer beds than what we have now.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Are we just terrible at estimating costs? Do you think?
Speaker 4 (13:19):
I'm not sure about that.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
I think the site as a particular problem and is
very very challenging, as is the project. I mean, the
rough report makes it clear that even now the sort
of project scope, exactly what they're going to build is
still being debated and litigated. So it's kind of hard
to cost up a project when you don't know exactly
what you're building. So as I say the project has
had a number of challenges and a number of problems,
I think it would be fair to say that those
(13:41):
problems have not always been ventilated to the public properly.
We are now doing that and it's really tough for
the people of Dunedin who I realize they are upset
about it, but they're going to get a new hospital.
I want to make that really clear Dunedin and the
wider region, because it's not just a incident.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Do we know when they should it be expecting that
hospitals are all a bit.
Speaker 5 (13:59):
Up in the year at the moment, well, we're thinking
advice urgently on the two options that we've laid out
on the table. The inpatient building is due to be
complete currently in twenty twenty nine, so it's five years
away anyway, and so we're just taking our time over
the next few weeks and a couple of months to
get some clarity in some finality, and once we've made
a decision, we'll make that clear.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
This week, former Prime Minister Bill English told The Herald's
Money Talks podcast that he wishes he had pushed more
on housing supply. You've made big calls on our housing
issue yourself, it is in fact a crisis, saying prices
need to drop with this infrastructure focus. What do you
want to see change in our housing sector?
Speaker 5 (14:40):
Yeah, I mean Bill English realizes like I do, and
like the government does, that the root cause of so
many social problems in New Zealand is unaffordable housing. You know,
it's a massive driver of poverty, it's a huge driver
of inequality. It's one of the reasons why we are
not as a productive country as we otherwise could be
cities that grow and allow people to move to their
cities more productive cities, and so so many of our
(15:02):
problems as a country come back to housing, and that's
because we haven't sorted out the fundamentals of our housing market,
which is about land supply, infrastructure funding and financing, and
making sure that councils are incentivised to.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
Go for housing growth.
Speaker 5 (15:14):
So that's why we've got a really comprehensive program of
reform around housing. You know, we've made some progress already.
We've made some decisions around land supply making it easier
for councils to grow out but also go up, so
more density but also more green fields as well.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
We've got work underway around.
Speaker 5 (15:29):
Infrastructure funding and financing, and that's part of the Quarter
for Action plan we were talking about before.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
But there's no doubt about it.
Speaker 5 (15:34):
Housing is an extremely important problem to solve in New
Zealand and we're determined to do it.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
And lastly, Minisa, should there be cross party deals to
assure big infrastructure projects are actually built or should we
just keep expecting to spend millions of dollars in preparation
and have plans scrapped every three years once another party
is in power.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Look, I am keen to build more bipartisan consensus on
big projects, but I think the critical point is that
you've got to get your ducks in a row and
do the work up front and be really clear about
what problem you're trying to solve before you charge off
and start commissioning work and doing projects. So you know,
for example, the City Rail Link as a project that
will open in the next couple of years, that started
life back in twenty sixteen. From memory, construction started and
(16:16):
construction continued all the way through the last government and
it started life under national or be opened by a national.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
Government with the work. You know, a lot of the
work was done.
Speaker 5 (16:23):
Under labor transmission gullies, but the same you know, eventually,
construction started in twenty fourteen, finished in twenty twenty two.
Cinder Aderne opened it and so where you've got big
projects where you know everyone agrees that on the need
to do them, that's great. The issue with some of
the projects that have been canceled in the last couple
of years, and Label would probably say the same, is
(16:43):
that they.
Speaker 4 (16:44):
Were not sensible projects. I mean Auckland light Rail.
Speaker 5 (16:46):
You know, thirty to forty billion dollar tram I wasn't
actually a tramm by the end. That actually speaks to
the project right because it started life as a three
hundred million dollar tram project down to Minion Road and
ended life as a thirty five billion dollar underground metro
system all the way out to the airport and Auckland.
So that in lot of itself speaks to just the
problems with the project over seven years, which is then
it goes back to the point I made before, which
(17:07):
is about getting the fundamentals right of our system.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
Let's get a thirty year plan in place.
Speaker 5 (17:11):
Let's get an infrastructure commissioned plan that the country can
get behind. Let's get proper business casing and proper scoping
done properly so we don't end up with situations like
Newdon Needum that in and of itself will help create
a much better degree of bipartisan consensus around a pipeline
and better plannings, and that's what I'm really focused on.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Thanks for joining US, Minister.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
produced by Ethan Silves and sound engineer Patti Fox. I'm
Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or
wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday
(17:57):
for another look behind the headlines.
Kiodra.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Infrastructure is
top of the agenda for the government for the last
months of twenty twenty four. The Prime Minister this week
released his Q four Action Plan, with plenty of targets
(00:28):
focusing on getting things built. Among the forty three objectives
is the highly controversial Fast Track Approvals Bill, which it's
hoped will speed up the delivery of regional and national
projects of significance. The focus on infrastructure comes a week
(00:49):
after the government announced Dunedin's new hospital could be downgraded
due to budget concerns. To discuss houses, roads, hospitals and
that niggli issue of budgets. Today on the Front Page,
we're joined by Infrastructure Minister Chris Bishop. Minister this latest
(01:11):
action plan from the government. Do you think these have
been a success so far? These action plans? Have you
achieved everything you've wanted from them so far?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Absolutely.
Speaker 5 (01:20):
Chris Luxon as Prime Minister has did a real focus
for as ministers in the public service on getting things
done and getting results and being really clear about what
we're trying to achieve. And so we started at the
end of last year and we've been rolling on through
twenty twenty four and the vast bulk of things we
want to accomplish.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Every quarter have been done.
Speaker 5 (01:37):
So it's about setting a focus for the public service
around what we try and deliver and for.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Ministers as well.
Speaker 5 (01:42):
So it's been working well so far and looking forward
to Quarter four, which of course has started now, well it's.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
The big one.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Hey, infrastructure is the focus of the latest one. Do
you think you can solve our infrastructure woes in the
next quarter?
Speaker 4 (01:56):
And if only that was true.
Speaker 5 (01:57):
There's a lot of things we've got to do to
get better infrastructure and better deliver in New Zealand. But
there's a few things in the Quarter four plan which
will help. Passing the fast track fill it into law
this quarter will make a difference in terms of consenting.
We've got a couple of resource management bills working their
way through the Parliament as well, and looking forward to
some decisions around infrastructure funding and financing for new housing
(02:18):
as well. So there's quite a lot on the agenda,
lots to do, but you know, there's much more to
do beyond this quarter. If it be solved in one
quarter that it'd be a great thing, but that's not
going to happen.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, Well, one of the main things you want to achieve, hey,
this quarter is finalizing that Fast Track Approvals Bill.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
What's the point of this bill from your perspective.
Speaker 5 (02:35):
Well, we've got an infrastructure deficit, and we've got a
housing crisis, and we've got very ambitious climate goals and
we need more renewable energy and you know we just
simply can't do that with our current planning system. So
the Fast Track Bill is all about making it easier
to get on and build the projects that New Zealand
needs for the future right around the country, for everything
from mining to quarrying to renewable energy, through to housing
(02:57):
and broader infrastructure projects. So it's not about deathic creating
the environment or sacrificing the importance of the environment. But
it's about cutting through the red tape. You know, it
shouldn't take eight years to consent a wind farm, for example.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
That's nuts.
Speaker 5 (03:10):
You know, we should be getting on and building these
projects because the zeeland needs them.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
And when it comes to that bill, how confident are
you that we won't have another leaky home saga situation.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
Oh, very confident.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
This is not about sacrificing environmental protections or quality. It's
about cutting through the red tape and green tape to
make it easy to do things.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Well, I'm sure Bulger's government assured the same thing back
in the nineties though.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
Right, yeah, But I mean Fasstrack is not about the
Building Act, for example, the Building Code. This is about
resource consenting and other permits he required, like the Wildlife Act,
Public Works.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
Act and things like that. So it's not about the
Building Act.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
And you know it's been well chemist what happened there
in the early nineties and then later on reforms lead
into the leaky homes of the early two thousands.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
It's not about that then. It was quite distinct issues.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
And when it comes to that bill, including appointing a
panel to projects, do you think you've done enough to
appease the fears over those environmental concerns.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Well, look, I.
Speaker 5 (04:04):
Think you're never going to appease everybody, and that with
people out there who just be radically opposed to fast.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
Track whatever we do.
Speaker 5 (04:10):
But people should bear in mind we did base quite
a lot of the substance and the process of the
law based on what the last government did as well.
I mean, they had their own version of fast track
through the COVID nineteen period, and admittedly ours is larger
in scope and bigger, but you know, the substance and
some of the processes are the same.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
So you're never going to satisfy everybody.
Speaker 5 (04:27):
But you know, we've made some sensible changes to the
bill to try and ameliorate or mitigate some of the.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
Concerns that have been expressed.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
And you know, I listened to those concerns and good faith,
and we've made some changes to the bill, and you know,
whether or not it satisfies everybody was suspect it won't,
but you know, we're going.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
To charge on.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
If we want to build a new road.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Say but midway through we find that a family of
endangered birds or skinks or something it calls the area home.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
What happens then?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Are these the kind of things that get projects tied
up in the environment core.
Speaker 5 (04:55):
It's typically not halfway through a project, because as part
of the process of getting resourced sent and permissions to
do various things, you've got to do quite a bit
of pre work before you go off and get a
resource consent. So I think it'd be quite a rare
circumstance in which you're building a road and you happen
to come across a you know, endangered species or something.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
You know, that would be a very very unusual situation.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Didn't it happen with Transmission Gully. I'm just going off
memory here.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Well, Transmission Gully had a lot of different issues. I mean,
it was a whole other ca Well, it was.
Speaker 5 (05:23):
It was a very complex piece of engineering, and they
did have resource consenting challenges with the Regional Council for
a variety of complicated reasons. And I would put Transmission
Gully in the category of a project that was actually delayed.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Because of resource consenting.
Speaker 5 (05:36):
So one of the things they missed, i think from memory,
two or three earthworks seasons because they're waiting for various
different consents before they could go and build it.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
It's one of the reasons why it took so long.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
So that is actually a bit of a clacic case
study as to why things take a while. But you know,
no one wants to see the destruction of endangered species
as a result of projects that are built through frustrated.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Studship plan is not dark planned and if there is
a mineral.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
If there is a.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Mining opportunity and it's impeded by a blind frog, goodbye Fredy.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
When it comes to roads of national and regional significance,
how are we going to pay for them?
Speaker 5 (06:16):
Well, ultimately they'll be paid for by a combination of
road users and the Crown. And the way we pay
for roads in New Zealand is primarily out.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Of field texas and road user charges.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
That's the primary mechanism because the ultimately road users pay
for the roads that they use. We're looking at using
tolls as an additional mechanism to help pay for the
roads because they provide the revenue stream to help the
financing of some of these roads. And so we've made
a commitment to do that as a coalition government. And
you know many New Zealanders will be familiar with toll
roads overseas Sydney and Brisbane and Melbourne and Featherfield as
(06:47):
well in Europe for example. We've got to roads New
Zealand right now. I've got the Northern Gateway north of Aukland,
got top of toll roads around Toron. They have plenty
they do. It's just the New Zealand right now, we're
just saying we want to make more use of them.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Why haven't we started using to roads more and more
like the rest of the world has, do you think?
Speaker 4 (07:03):
I think there's a variety of reasons for that.
Speaker 5 (07:05):
I think there's probably a view that when you drive
on a road, you've already paid for it because it's
been built and you pay petrol tax, and that's true
up to a point, but also tolling is just an
alternative mechanism to paying for the use of the roads
as well.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
I think some people would probably argue, you know, when you.
Speaker 5 (07:19):
Have paid two dollars eighty or whatever, you know, it's
slightly frustrating and annoying to have to do that. So
there's a sort of basic administration that people don't like.
But it's actually pretty easy to do these days. So
I think politicians have probably been a bit fearful on
the past of authorizing the use of toll roads.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
But you know, the reality is the roads have.
Speaker 5 (07:34):
To be paid for, and holding is a thing that
can bring forward the construction of roads that wouldn't otherwise happen,
or might happen later than they otherwise would.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
My colleague Thomas Coglan last month wrote about a report
that had been written by the Infrastructure Commission for you
about the roads of national significance in Northland. The commissioner
warned that this road network between Auckland and Funradai alone
would eat up ten percent of the country's infrastructure over
the next twenty five years.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Is that justifiable?
Speaker 5 (08:03):
Well, we're having a good look at that road and
it's a really important connector for Northland to Auckland and
one of the best things we can do for the
economy of Northland to make it better connected to its
larger economic market of Auckland its surrounding area. So you know,
we take on board the Infrastructure Commission advice and we've
got a big job to do over the next few
years when it comes to funding the roads and the
infrastructure we need around the country.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Ten percent is a pretty big chunk ky. Someone in
in the cargo probably won't care about that road.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
No, you know, everyone's a strong advocate for the particular
area of the country that you know when they want
to see investment, and this is just the example of
the challenge we've got as a country where you know,
we have a between one hundred and two hundred million
dollar infrastructure deficit that's been built up over twenty to
thirty years and it's going to take quite a long
time to address that, and that's why we're really focused
on getting the system right around infrastructure investment. We're creating
(08:50):
a new funding and financing agency, National Infrastructure Agency. We're
looking at the instructur Commission to doing a thirty year
plan for the country to try and build a bit
more by partisan consensus around what.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Projects we need.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
We are looking at new tools like toll roads, you know,
new funding mechanisms like our value capture and different forms
of rates. It's the simplest way to put it to
capture some of the value of public sector investment in infrastructure.
So we're doing all that we can across the whole
range of different workstreams across the government to redress our
infrastructure deficit.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Why haven't we gotten international investment in some of these
roads and infrastructure.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Do you think are we just that opposed to it?
Speaker 5 (09:35):
Well, that welcome that hasn't been put out for that
in the past. So you know, the previous government had
a particular aversion to the use of private capital to help.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Address our infrastructure needs. We don't. We're very open minded
to it.
Speaker 5 (09:48):
So that's been quite a shift, and there is a
degree of interest offshore and investment into New Zealand. Our
foreign investment laws are very hostile to private capital flowing
into the country. We've got one of the most hostile
foreign investment regimes in the developed world, and Gompment stones
some work on that. It's part of the coalition agreement
with the act Party obviously as well. So we want
to make it easier to invest in New Zealand. So
the variety of reasons in this work underway on all
(10:10):
of those things.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
Once we've got more to say about that, we'll say it.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
While we're on infrastructure to need in hospital, Chris, how
can a projects budget jump from around one point two
billion dollars to an estimated three billion dollars?
Speaker 4 (10:24):
Yeah, well, very good question.
Speaker 5 (10:25):
This is part of the issue with the new to
need and hospital project is it's been a bit of
a shamozzle all the way back in twenty seventeen when
cindera June said they'd start construction in the fift three
years and here we are in twenty twenty four and
we've got half an outpatient building being built and they
haven't started the impatient building seven years on, and it's
been a very troubled project right from the start, and
unfortunately there's been a real lack of transparency around the
(10:46):
project over the last few years and we've now inherited
it and we're just trying to be as upfront and
transparent with the public about what the actual facts are.
And you know, I realize that people are unhappy about that,
but I genuinely feel we've got a duty to be
upfront with people about the problems with the project. I mean,
the site was selected in twenty eighteen. They bought the
old Cad Prefectory site. They spent eleven million dollars on
(11:09):
the land, so they got the land pretty cheap, but
they also had to buy about fifty five million bucks
worth of land around the Cad Prefectory site because they
actually needed more than than they thought. The land is contaminated,
it's on a swamp. It's on very marshy, swampy land,
so that has necessitated quite a lot of design work
to make changes around that. It's surrounded by two different
state highways, so it's a very very challenging site that
(11:31):
the hospital is currently designed to be built on. And
that has driven a lot of cost escalation.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
It sounds like that site shouldn't have been chosen in
the first place.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
Well, I don't want to, I thought, I don't want
to get into litigating the path because that site has
been chosen, and it was chosen by the previous government.
The project is so complex that you know, it was
really hard to find a contracted a bit on the
project and they had to do what's called an early
contractor engagement process where basically the current lead contractor or
the current contractor that have been helping, as I understand
(12:01):
it anyways, that have been helping to design up the
speck of the project so they can actually price it properly.
So that that in itself has been an interesting process.
The reality is that an extremely complex project. People say,
you know, well, how can it be that a hospital
cost getting near three billion dollars? And I had exactly
the same reaction. I asked exactly the same questions as
the publican now asking, and those are the facts. And
(12:22):
as Infrastructure Minister, alongside Shane and the rest of the team,
you know, we've got to deal with that and you know,
we're just trying to We've inherited a really, really tough situation,
and we are trying to do what is right for
the people of to need and but also what's right
for the country and get the project back on track
as quickly as we possibly can so that we can
move forward.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
The people of this region are hopping mad best demon
about this depreciation of the hospital that they've.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Been waiting for us for so long.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
This project is in people's hearts and it will not
They will not be messed with lot in even one
story of the new child block would mean the new
hospital would have fewer beds than what we have now.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Are we just terrible at estimating costs? Do you think?
Speaker 4 (13:19):
I'm not sure about that.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
I think the site as a particular problem and is
very very challenging, as is the project. I mean, the
rough report makes it clear that even now the sort
of project scope, exactly what they're going to build is
still being debated and litigated. So it's kind of hard
to cost up a project when you don't know exactly
what you're building. So as I say the project has
had a number of challenges and a number of problems,
I think it would be fair to say that those
(13:41):
problems have not always been ventilated to the public properly.
We are now doing that and it's really tough for
the people of Dunedin who I realize they are upset
about it, but they're going to get a new hospital.
I want to make that really clear Dunedin and the
wider region, because it's not just a incident.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Do we know when they should it be expecting that
hospitals are all a bit.
Speaker 5 (13:59):
Up in the year at the moment, well, we're thinking
advice urgently on the two options that we've laid out
on the table. The inpatient building is due to be
complete currently in twenty twenty nine, so it's five years
away anyway, and so we're just taking our time over
the next few weeks and a couple of months to
get some clarity in some finality, and once we've made
a decision, we'll make that clear.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
This week, former Prime Minister Bill English told The Herald's
Money Talks podcast that he wishes he had pushed more
on housing supply. You've made big calls on our housing
issue yourself, it is in fact a crisis, saying prices
need to drop with this infrastructure focus. What do you
want to see change in our housing sector?
Speaker 5 (14:40):
Yeah, I mean Bill English realizes like I do, and
like the government does, that the root cause of so
many social problems in New Zealand is unaffordable housing. You know,
it's a massive driver of poverty, it's a huge driver
of inequality. It's one of the reasons why we are
not as a productive country as we otherwise could be
cities that grow and allow people to move to their
cities more productive cities, and so so many of our
(15:02):
problems as a country come back to housing, and that's
because we haven't sorted out the fundamentals of our housing market,
which is about land supply, infrastructure funding and financing, and
making sure that councils are incentivised to.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
Go for housing growth.
Speaker 5 (15:14):
So that's why we've got a really comprehensive program of
reform around housing. You know, we've made some progress already.
We've made some decisions around land supply making it easier
for councils to grow out but also go up, so
more density but also more green fields as well.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
We've got work underway around.
Speaker 5 (15:29):
Infrastructure funding and financing, and that's part of the Quarter
for Action plan we were talking about before.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
But there's no doubt about it.
Speaker 5 (15:34):
Housing is an extremely important problem to solve in New
Zealand and we're determined to do it.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
And lastly, Minisa, should there be cross party deals to
assure big infrastructure projects are actually built or should we
just keep expecting to spend millions of dollars in preparation
and have plans scrapped every three years once another party
is in power.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Look, I am keen to build more bipartisan consensus on
big projects, but I think the critical point is that
you've got to get your ducks in a row and
do the work up front and be really clear about
what problem you're trying to solve before you charge off
and start commissioning work and doing projects. So you know,
for example, the City Rail Link as a project that
will open in the next couple of years, that started
life back in twenty sixteen. From memory, construction started and
(16:16):
construction continued all the way through the last government and
it started life under national or be opened by a national.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
Government with the work. You know, a lot of the
work was done.
Speaker 5 (16:23):
Under labor transmission gullies, but the same you know, eventually,
construction started in twenty fourteen, finished in twenty twenty two.
Cinder Aderne opened it and so where you've got big
projects where you know everyone agrees that on the need
to do them, that's great. The issue with some of
the projects that have been canceled in the last couple
of years, and Label would probably say the same, is
(16:43):
that they.
Speaker 4 (16:44):
Were not sensible projects. I mean Auckland light Rail.
Speaker 5 (16:46):
You know, thirty to forty billion dollar tram I wasn't
actually a tramm by the end. That actually speaks to
the project right because it started life as a three
hundred million dollar tram project down to Minion Road and
ended life as a thirty five billion dollar underground metro
system all the way out to the airport and Auckland.
So that in lot of itself speaks to just the
problems with the project over seven years, which is then
it goes back to the point I made before, which
(17:07):
is about getting the fundamentals right of our system.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
Let's get a thirty year plan in place.
Speaker 5 (17:11):
Let's get an infrastructure commissioned plan that the country can
get behind. Let's get proper business casing and proper scoping
done properly so we don't end up with situations like
Newdon Needum that in and of itself will help create
a much better degree of bipartisan consensus around a pipeline
and better plannings, and that's what I'm really focused on.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Thanks for joining US, Minister.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
produced by Ethan Silves and sound engineer Patti Fox. I'm
Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or
wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday
(17:57):
for another look behind the headlines.
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