September 11, 2025 • 23 mins
There’s a new plan to re-open the Christ Church Cathedral in stages.
It’s after the reinstatement of the iconic building came to a standstill last year when the project was unable to secure an extra $85 to 95 million.
The new plan still comes with a funding shortfall of between $40 and 45 million.
This news is just the latest in a saga that’s haunted Cantabrians since the cathedral was severely damaged in the Canterbury Earthquakes.
Today on The Front Page, we hear about the latest announcement from Newstalk ZB reporter Jaime Cunningham.
Then, we speak with former National MP and Minister supporting Greater Christchurch Regeneration Nicky Wagner about what it was like early on, behind the curtain when those hard decisions were being made.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Editor/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Jane Yee
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Chiyoda.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Presented by the New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
There's a new plan to reopen the Christ Church Cathedral
in stages. It's after the reinstatement of the iconic building
came to a stand still last year when the project
was unable to secure an extra eighty five to ninety
five million dollars.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
The new plan still comes with a funding.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Shortfall of about forty to forty five million dollars. This
news is just the latest in a saga that's haunted
Cantabrians since the cathedral was severely.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Damaged in the Canterbury earthquakes.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Today on the Front Page, we speak with former National
MP and minister supporting Greater christ Church Regeneration, Nicki Wagner
about what was like early on behind the curve when
those hard decisions were being made. But first we hear
about the latest announcement from Newstalks. That'd be reporter Jamie Cunningham.
(01:11):
So tell me, Jamie, what's the latest development.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Well, we've got news that bears a new stage plan
to rebuild and refurbish the cathedral, hopefully reopening it to
the public by twenty thirty. Of course, the rebuild was
paused indefinitely last August because of an eighty five million
dollars shortfall, and at that point there was eighty two
(01:37):
million orden to the rebuild. Another six million has gone
since then, and so this new plan involves opening the
front half pretty much of the cathedral, so the entrance way,
the nave which is the seating area, the tower bell
and the rose window. And so that plan opening just
(02:00):
this section will have that funding shortfall to forty forty
five million dollars, as the Anglican Church has pledged to
give another twenty million, which they weren't originally going to do.
We've also talked to the Reinstatement Group chair Mark Stewart.
He says they're hoping this funding shortfall, the forty forty
(02:24):
five million dollars comes from the government and the City Council.
The City Council have pledged to donate ten million, but
only three million has been received at the moment, and
of course the government declined an emergency I guess from
the team last year asking for more money. So it's
(02:46):
a bit up in the air, but be hopeful that
because it's not as much as the original shortful that
this may be able to go through and the public
will come through just in time for the one hundred
and fiftieth anniversary in twenty thirty one of the cathedral.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
So in terms of that funding shortfall, that's been cut
in half.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Right, So they were looking for eighty five to.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Ninety five million last year, then now saying look, we
only need forty to forty five million, but eventually they
will still need that extra money to open up the rest.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Of the cathedral.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
Right.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
What are they hoping happens between now and then.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Yeah, Well, the Dean of the Cathedral being Truman, he's
really hopeful that once it gets to this first stage
opening in twenty thirty that this will attract the tourists
just people of christ Church into the area and will
just create more opportunities. Will be private investors will also
(03:42):
actually see the opportunity of donating to this project and
what it does for christ Church, and he's, yeah, Truman
is really hopeful that after this first stage gets to
the point of opening, that it will kind of just
create a domino effect and more money will come from
the avenues they've already received. So twenty million a roundabout
(04:06):
have come from private investors already to this point.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
And what was it like there at the announcement? I mean,
did it feel like a real last debtch effort.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
It was my first time going inside the fencing, and
you just can't imagine how much organization it has. From
the outside, it doesn't look like.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Much, but there's such a big area.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
They've got offices right next to the cathedral, and it's
clear that this has been in the works for a while.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
It was very organized.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
All the people there were very upbeat. It seems like
after a turbulent last year that they're really hopeful that
this plan is going to work. And it does seem
like it is a better option that they probably could
have considered before this point. But they're really hopeful that
because Christ you're just humming, that it's going to be successful.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
And you mentioned the first stage includes the cathedral part,
so that's with all the chairs and the pews and
things and a couple of other things. What would be
the second stage? I suppose how many stages?
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Did they say They don't have any clarity around the
rest of the stages, but they have said that actually
when the cathedral was originally built for opening in eighteen
eighty one, that it took forty years in stages, so
they're kind of mirroring how it was originally built, and
(05:30):
so I guess for them it's really just the focus
of getting their entrance way open so people can go
inside and see what it's like. Of course there's been tours,
but around seven hundred people can fit in the seating
area once they get it open, and then from there
it's just I guess what's the most viable and what
makes sense to open negs.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Well, let's hope it doesn't take another forty years. Thank
you so much for joining us, Jamie. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
When Nicki Wagner was put in charge of regenerating christ Church,
she said she was excited.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
And up for the challenge.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
She said, we've got through the disaster. Now we're moving on.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
To the regeneration phase. She joins us. Now, So first off, Niki.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
After the quakes, the cathedral sat broken and neglected for
years now. There was a lot of back and forth
in the beginning court cases and the like, appeals, etc.
That in twenty fifteen a working group was established and
finally a twenty seventeen final report came through take us
from there.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
Yes, well, when that report came through, basically it said
that for one hundred and four million dollars you could
reinstate the cathedral. It meant that that was more than
fifty thousand dollars dollars more than their insurance for the church.
The church had something like forty two million dollars worth
(07:06):
of insurance. So it was a matter of finding that
difference between the two and how that could happen. But
you really can't understand the decisions that were made in
twenty seventeen unless you understand the debate that went on
before that time, and also the significance of the christ
(07:29):
Church Cathedral. And if you go back to the very
early days before people actually turned up in christ Church,
they were thinking of a cathedral, so it predated people
even arriving here. And they were only here for about
six years before they were seriously driving the cathedral and
(07:50):
fourteen years after they turned up they started building it.
And if you consider it, there was only three to
four thousand Europeans set in that time and very few
mari because they were they just used the Canterbury area
as more seasonal Hangarkai collection and disvisiting, they didn't actually
(08:12):
live on the christ Church area. Three or four thousand
people committed to building that cathedral, and it did take
forty years. It did stop in the middle because they
ran out of money. But you think of what a
huge undertaking it was for such a small number of people.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
How would you describe the cathedral and what it means
to the people of christ Church two people outside of
the city, Because I'm sure that you've had this multiple times.
People were just saying, well, why don't you just boil
it down? Why do you need it?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
It's a church, it's religious, did it da?
Speaker 4 (08:45):
Yep, absolutely, And that was the big debate, and I
suspect it was probably a fifty to fifty ish debate.
I mean, some of the surveys said fifty eight percent
of the people wanted to rebuild it, but then they
thought twice when they thought.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Of the money.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
So it was a pretty general discussion, and that's why
the discussion was so heated and so passionate for over
six years. But the issue really was that it sat
in the center of christ Church. Now, if you think
about christ Church when it was first built, it was
much smaller. It was where people walked past every day.
(09:23):
They saw it every day. When I was a child
in the fifties and sixties, it used to be the
center of the cities, or the busses stopped there, so
everybody who went anywhere into the city, the trams or
the buses, they went past the cathedral. There were six
cinemas in Cathedral Square, and if you look at the
(09:44):
pictures back from that time, it was often absolutely full
of people, crowds that you'd never see these days in
that sort of area. So it was very much central
to the life of christ Church. And on top of that,
it had traditions. At most families, regardless of whether they
were Anglicans or any kind of religion or non religion,
(10:06):
they would pop in there at Christmas and put something
under the big, huge Christmas tree, and most christ Church
people would say, oh, yes, we used to go there
at Christmas. And they also had the spire and that
was almost like a rite of passage for kids to
climb up the curling steps to the spire and look
out over this busy, vibrant square full of people. So
(10:28):
it was very much part of the environment what you
did of a day you knew it existed and whether
you were actually involved in the religion and went to church,
there was beside the point. On top of that, of
course it had the bells, and the bells used to
ring out and they would ring out across christ Church,
so people heard it as well, so it was very
(10:49):
much part of christ Church lifestyle. And then on top
of that it was used as a symbol. And if
you think back to the news on Telling when it
first came in, they had pictures of the cathedral representing
christ Church. We had a television program all about christ
Church and the pictures of the cathedral came up first.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
It was there if you.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
Got something from the city council, there was a picture
of the cathedral on the invoice. And for a while
we had the slogan christ Church is the city that Shines,
and there was a picture of the cathedral with a
winding path going up to it. So it was whether
you cared about it or actively noticed it, it was always.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
There, I imagine.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Then it became just a stark reminder of the tragedy
that happened during the Canterbury earthquakes as well, having to
walk past the ruins every day, and still for some
people still having still see it there.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
It must be very difficult.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
I think you're right, And that was very much the
feeling of the debate at the time. Until we put
this debate to bed and make a decision, the city
can't move on. For many people, it was like the
heart of the city. And it wasn't just the building itself,
it was Cathedral Square as well, and it was a
(12:20):
really strong statement that while this building is looking broken,
christ Church will be seen to be broken and felt
to be broken.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
So we're in twenty seventeen, one hundred and seven million
dollar cost. The government's fronting grants and loans of twenty
five mil, the council's fronting ten million dollars, and they
reckon they'll get the rest of it raised, and they
wanted it done by twenty twenty seven. Now obviously that
hasn't happened. At the time, did you see those plans,
because there was a lot of numbers being thrown around about. Oh,
(12:52):
but this report says it can cost sixty odd million.
This one over here says it's going to cost this
Did you truly believe that it was going to be
one hundred and seven million and it was going to
be done by twenty twenty seven.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
Probably not to the extent that common sense would tell
you that all buildings escalate, and a complex reinstatement like that,
and remembering it wasn't a restoration, we weren't putting it
back brickbry brick. We were actually upgrading it as well,
(13:29):
so that it was more for the purpose going forward, which
makes good common sense. Certainly. The timing, I have to say,
we've always been optimistic about the timing for the rebuild
of christ Church, but when I look back on it,
I'm really glad we were. When we first started talking
(13:50):
about rebuilding christ Church as a whole. Overseas, people said
twenty five years. It takes twenty five years to rebuild
a city. And we sat there and said, really five years.
Look where young, we're vital, we're going to make it happen.
We're small country, we've only got one layer of government.
Surely we can do it faster than that. And so
(14:11):
we thought ten fifteen years maybe. But in reality, if
we had told the people of christ Church, look forget
about it for twenty five years, I don't know if
the people would be here. A lot of people, particularly
people with young children, they left because they just didn't
(14:31):
want their children to see this broken city. And I
live in the center city and we had demolition probably
for two years. Every single day you just heard the demolition.
And then we had another two years of building. And
the funny thing was there was a totally different headspace
from demolition to building demolition. It was coming down, building
(14:52):
was building it up. So we felt much more enthusiastic
in the next two years. But even so it was
a huge disruption. So I think if we had been
not as optimistic, probably we would have seen a worse
outcome for christ Church. And I think, yes, we've waited,
but you can see how wonderful the results have been
(15:14):
in so many ways. People are coming to christ Church now,
we've managed to keep the cost of housing down. Young
people are coming to the university, walking through round the
River is fantastic, the new sports center, the new stadium.
It's certainly christ Church is really going ahead out of
that disaster.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Of course, at the time you were appointed Minister supporting
Greater christ Church for Regeneration.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
Long title.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah, it's a curly one in terms of looking back
at that time, because I was reporting in christ Church
at that time as well. And I think both you
and I had to do a lot of googling and
try and remember what it was like during that time,
and I completely forgot about the animosity towards Bishop Victoria
(16:05):
Matthews because she was heralded. You know, she was really
championing the idea of a modern cathedral, which would obviously
cost a lot less, and she carried that through all
of the discussions, and of course, after this twenty seventeen
report and decision came out, she resigned six months later.
Speaker 5 (16:25):
Any regrets, I think early on I probably should have
gone to the people who were screaming the loudest and saying,
we can't do it this way, let's talk. We kept
saying we were going to do that, and then there'd
be another last suit and it never happened. I wish
I'd gotten in before one of those lawsuits.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
And who are those people you're talking about.
Speaker 5 (16:47):
I'm not going to name names in terms of groups
at all, heritage people who carried both the reinstatement for
the cathedral, but I'm not getting into names. It's not personal.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Do you think that she's somewhere, perhaps somewhere in Canada,
because she really does have her and I told you
so moment, right.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Because I think we could have had three or four
modern cathedrals by now.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
I think you're right. I think there was a huge
animosity towards her, But I think again, you've got to
consider the context. Everybody's looking for a scapegoat. When you
have a major disaster, everybody pulls together. And I have
to say, I've never been so proud of the people
of christ chur just as they manage that first, you know,
(17:33):
first few days, weeks, months, but after a while, they
get tired, they get worn down, they get fractious, and
everybody's looking for a scapegoat, and this was she was
a pretty good scapegoat. The argument was, oh, she doesn't
understand us, she's foreign. No, she doesn't know. But I
was listening, as I say, I googled and looked back
(17:53):
on her. Everything she said was very reasonable and very
thoughtful and actually in line with what the church should do.
What she said was we only have forty two million dollars.
It's the church itself is not really fit for purpose.
(18:14):
She also made the statement that the whole world went
She said, go to any small town in England and
you'll see a similar building, and she's absolutely right, but
they were not the sort of things we wanted to hear.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
And I think at one point she actually said, it's
not like it's the taj Mahal, that's right.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
It's like, oh, don't like. I mean, she's right, but
don't say it.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Pay that to us. I know, and I don't think
she really I mean, we had long conversations. I would
meet with her every Sunday afternoon and we would have
coffee and we talked and talked and talked and talked,
and she felt bullied by some of these groups. She
felt her intrinsic belief was we should be looking after
(19:02):
the people, that it's only a building. But she could
get no traction on that because everybody says she doesn't understand.
So I I'm listening to her and going through some
of those old interviews. I think she was really reasonable,
but she became a scapegoat and people were rabbit about
(19:24):
how they spoke about her.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, and everything in retrospect.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
Right, we respect absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
When looking at those conversations, it was fiery from the
outside looking in, right, What was it like behind those
closed doors?
Speaker 4 (19:38):
Fiery as well? There were people and I think what
we have to think back again. It's all in context.
When you go back to those times, you have to
see how many things had been broken in christ Church,
how much we had lost, how much people were hurting.
And what you had to do from that is see
(20:01):
that this was part of all of that. There were
people who really made it their mission to look after
the cathedral. Maybe they thought they couldn't control anything else,
but this was really important. We had people from all
around the world. The UNESCO Heritage Group was against the demolition.
(20:22):
The engineers one hundred New Zealand engineers got together and
we're against the demolition. We had two big strong log
lobby groups of local people against the demolition. So basically
where we got to in that stage was we either
reinstated the cathedral or we faced another ten years of
(20:44):
arguing about it. These people were well resourced, they were
going to take it to court, they were going to
fight it to the nth degree. So in terms of
a pragmatic solution, thinking of this broken heart of Christ Church,
if we could patch together a solution, that's what we
were working on and that's what we did. And in
the end it was the Synod who made that final decision,
(21:07):
and I went to the Synod and I talked to
the Synod and I explained what I saw. I also
really believed that it gave the Anglican Church an opportunity
to showcase their place in the center of the city,
and that it could be seen as a positive for
the church. But as I saw, and I didn't realize
(21:29):
that fifty five percent of the synod voted for it.
I didn't know that until I looked it up recently.
So it was pretty touch and go even at that stage,
but I think everybody was united. We cannot go on
arguing forever over this.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
The latest announcement is that they're wanting to reopen it
in stages, So instead of needing eighty five to ninety
five million dollars that's what their shortfall was before, it's
now about forty to forty five million dollars. They want
to open the first stage so like the main area,
by the end of twenty thirty, and the Anglican Church
(22:05):
is actually committing another twenty million dollars towards it. How
does that make you feel that we could be walking
in and sitting down on one of those pews in
just five years time.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
Well, originally part of that plan was it was designed
to be staged two. But it was designed to be
staged with the main part of the cathedral and then
the tower and the spy later. So we'd already gone
down that sort of lego type of building to manage
the money. I think it's a good thing. I think
(22:38):
when you've got the convention center there, when you've got
the whole city coming around the river, we do need
that building to be saying what Christ Church is all about,
and it has set it for, you know, hundreds of years.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Really, thanks for joining us, Nicky, take care.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Thanks Chelsea.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidherld dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is
produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also
our editor.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday for another
look behind the headlines.
Chiyoda.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Presented by the New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
There's a new plan to reopen the Christ Church Cathedral
in stages. It's after the reinstatement of the iconic building
came to a stand still last year when the project
was unable to secure an extra eighty five to ninety
five million dollars.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
The new plan still comes with a funding.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Shortfall of about forty to forty five million dollars. This
news is just the latest in a saga that's haunted
Cantabrians since the cathedral was severely.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Damaged in the Canterbury earthquakes.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Today on the Front Page, we speak with former National
MP and minister supporting Greater christ Church Regeneration, Nicki Wagner
about what was like early on behind the curve when
those hard decisions were being made. But first we hear
about the latest announcement from Newstalks. That'd be reporter Jamie Cunningham.
(01:11):
So tell me, Jamie, what's the latest development.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Well, we've got news that bears a new stage plan
to rebuild and refurbish the cathedral, hopefully reopening it to
the public by twenty thirty. Of course, the rebuild was
paused indefinitely last August because of an eighty five million
dollars shortfall, and at that point there was eighty two
(01:37):
million orden to the rebuild. Another six million has gone
since then, and so this new plan involves opening the
front half pretty much of the cathedral, so the entrance way,
the nave which is the seating area, the tower bell
and the rose window. And so that plan opening just
(02:00):
this section will have that funding shortfall to forty forty
five million dollars, as the Anglican Church has pledged to
give another twenty million, which they weren't originally going to do.
We've also talked to the Reinstatement Group chair Mark Stewart.
He says they're hoping this funding shortfall, the forty forty
(02:24):
five million dollars comes from the government and the City Council.
The City Council have pledged to donate ten million, but
only three million has been received at the moment, and
of course the government declined an emergency I guess from
the team last year asking for more money. So it's
(02:46):
a bit up in the air, but be hopeful that
because it's not as much as the original shortful that
this may be able to go through and the public
will come through just in time for the one hundred
and fiftieth anniversary in twenty thirty one of the cathedral.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
So in terms of that funding shortfall, that's been cut
in half.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Right, So they were looking for eighty five to.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Ninety five million last year, then now saying look, we
only need forty to forty five million, but eventually they
will still need that extra money to open up the rest.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Of the cathedral.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
Right.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
What are they hoping happens between now and then.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Yeah, Well, the Dean of the Cathedral being Truman, he's
really hopeful that once it gets to this first stage
opening in twenty thirty that this will attract the tourists
just people of christ Church into the area and will
just create more opportunities. Will be private investors will also
(03:42):
actually see the opportunity of donating to this project and
what it does for christ Church, and he's, yeah, Truman
is really hopeful that after this first stage gets to
the point of opening, that it will kind of just
create a domino effect and more money will come from
the avenues they've already received. So twenty million a roundabout
(04:06):
have come from private investors already to this point.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
And what was it like there at the announcement? I mean,
did it feel like a real last debtch effort.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
It was my first time going inside the fencing, and
you just can't imagine how much organization it has. From
the outside, it doesn't look like.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Much, but there's such a big area.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
They've got offices right next to the cathedral, and it's
clear that this has been in the works for a while.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
It was very organized.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
All the people there were very upbeat. It seems like
after a turbulent last year that they're really hopeful that
this plan is going to work. And it does seem
like it is a better option that they probably could
have considered before this point. But they're really hopeful that
because Christ you're just humming, that it's going to be successful.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
And you mentioned the first stage includes the cathedral part,
so that's with all the chairs and the pews and
things and a couple of other things. What would be
the second stage? I suppose how many stages?
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Did they say They don't have any clarity around the
rest of the stages, but they have said that actually
when the cathedral was originally built for opening in eighteen
eighty one, that it took forty years in stages, so
they're kind of mirroring how it was originally built, and
(05:30):
so I guess for them it's really just the focus
of getting their entrance way open so people can go
inside and see what it's like. Of course there's been tours,
but around seven hundred people can fit in the seating
area once they get it open, and then from there
it's just I guess what's the most viable and what
makes sense to open negs.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Well, let's hope it doesn't take another forty years. Thank
you so much for joining us, Jamie. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
When Nicki Wagner was put in charge of regenerating christ Church,
she said she was excited.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
And up for the challenge.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
She said, we've got through the disaster. Now we're moving on.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
To the regeneration phase. She joins us. Now, So first off, Niki.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
After the quakes, the cathedral sat broken and neglected for
years now. There was a lot of back and forth
in the beginning court cases and the like, appeals, etc.
That in twenty fifteen a working group was established and
finally a twenty seventeen final report came through take us
from there.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
Yes, well, when that report came through, basically it said
that for one hundred and four million dollars you could
reinstate the cathedral. It meant that that was more than
fifty thousand dollars dollars more than their insurance for the church.
The church had something like forty two million dollars worth
(07:06):
of insurance. So it was a matter of finding that
difference between the two and how that could happen. But
you really can't understand the decisions that were made in
twenty seventeen unless you understand the debate that went on
before that time, and also the significance of the christ
(07:29):
Church Cathedral. And if you go back to the very
early days before people actually turned up in christ Church,
they were thinking of a cathedral, so it predated people
even arriving here. And they were only here for about
six years before they were seriously driving the cathedral and
(07:50):
fourteen years after they turned up they started building it.
And if you consider it, there was only three to
four thousand Europeans set in that time and very few
mari because they were they just used the Canterbury area
as more seasonal Hangarkai collection and disvisiting, they didn't actually
(08:12):
live on the christ Church area. Three or four thousand
people committed to building that cathedral, and it did take
forty years. It did stop in the middle because they
ran out of money. But you think of what a
huge undertaking it was for such a small number of people.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
How would you describe the cathedral and what it means
to the people of christ Church two people outside of
the city, Because I'm sure that you've had this multiple times.
People were just saying, well, why don't you just boil
it down? Why do you need it?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
It's a church, it's religious, did it da?
Speaker 4 (08:45):
Yep, absolutely, And that was the big debate, and I
suspect it was probably a fifty to fifty ish debate.
I mean, some of the surveys said fifty eight percent
of the people wanted to rebuild it, but then they
thought twice when they thought.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Of the money.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
So it was a pretty general discussion, and that's why
the discussion was so heated and so passionate for over
six years. But the issue really was that it sat
in the center of christ Church. Now, if you think
about christ Church when it was first built, it was
much smaller. It was where people walked past every day.
(09:23):
They saw it every day. When I was a child
in the fifties and sixties, it used to be the
center of the cities, or the busses stopped there, so
everybody who went anywhere into the city, the trams or
the buses, they went past the cathedral. There were six
cinemas in Cathedral Square, and if you look at the
(09:44):
pictures back from that time, it was often absolutely full
of people, crowds that you'd never see these days in
that sort of area. So it was very much central
to the life of christ Church. And on top of that,
it had traditions. At most families, regardless of whether they
were Anglicans or any kind of religion or non religion,
(10:06):
they would pop in there at Christmas and put something
under the big, huge Christmas tree, and most christ Church
people would say, oh, yes, we used to go there
at Christmas. And they also had the spire and that
was almost like a rite of passage for kids to
climb up the curling steps to the spire and look
out over this busy, vibrant square full of people. So
(10:28):
it was very much part of the environment what you
did of a day you knew it existed and whether
you were actually involved in the religion and went to church,
there was beside the point. On top of that, of
course it had the bells, and the bells used to
ring out and they would ring out across christ Church,
so people heard it as well, so it was very
(10:49):
much part of christ Church lifestyle. And then on top
of that it was used as a symbol. And if
you think back to the news on Telling when it
first came in, they had pictures of the cathedral representing
christ Church. We had a television program all about christ
Church and the pictures of the cathedral came up first.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
It was there if you.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
Got something from the city council, there was a picture
of the cathedral on the invoice. And for a while
we had the slogan christ Church is the city that Shines,
and there was a picture of the cathedral with a
winding path going up to it. So it was whether
you cared about it or actively noticed it, it was always.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
There, I imagine.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Then it became just a stark reminder of the tragedy
that happened during the Canterbury earthquakes as well, having to
walk past the ruins every day, and still for some
people still having still see it there.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
It must be very difficult.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
I think you're right, And that was very much the
feeling of the debate at the time. Until we put
this debate to bed and make a decision, the city
can't move on. For many people, it was like the
heart of the city. And it wasn't just the building itself,
it was Cathedral Square as well, and it was a
(12:20):
really strong statement that while this building is looking broken,
christ Church will be seen to be broken and felt
to be broken.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
So we're in twenty seventeen, one hundred and seven million
dollar cost. The government's fronting grants and loans of twenty
five mil, the council's fronting ten million dollars, and they
reckon they'll get the rest of it raised, and they
wanted it done by twenty twenty seven. Now obviously that
hasn't happened. At the time, did you see those plans,
because there was a lot of numbers being thrown around about. Oh,
(12:52):
but this report says it can cost sixty odd million.
This one over here says it's going to cost this
Did you truly believe that it was going to be
one hundred and seven million and it was going to
be done by twenty twenty seven.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
Probably not to the extent that common sense would tell
you that all buildings escalate, and a complex reinstatement like that,
and remembering it wasn't a restoration, we weren't putting it
back brickbry brick. We were actually upgrading it as well,
(13:29):
so that it was more for the purpose going forward, which
makes good common sense. Certainly. The timing, I have to say,
we've always been optimistic about the timing for the rebuild
of christ Church, but when I look back on it,
I'm really glad we were. When we first started talking
(13:50):
about rebuilding christ Church as a whole. Overseas, people said
twenty five years. It takes twenty five years to rebuild
a city. And we sat there and said, really five years.
Look where young, we're vital, we're going to make it happen.
We're small country, we've only got one layer of government.
Surely we can do it faster than that. And so
(14:11):
we thought ten fifteen years maybe. But in reality, if
we had told the people of christ Church, look forget
about it for twenty five years, I don't know if
the people would be here. A lot of people, particularly
people with young children, they left because they just didn't
(14:31):
want their children to see this broken city. And I
live in the center city and we had demolition probably
for two years. Every single day you just heard the demolition.
And then we had another two years of building. And
the funny thing was there was a totally different headspace
from demolition to building demolition. It was coming down, building
(14:52):
was building it up. So we felt much more enthusiastic
in the next two years. But even so it was
a huge disruption. So I think if we had been
not as optimistic, probably we would have seen a worse
outcome for christ Church. And I think, yes, we've waited,
but you can see how wonderful the results have been
(15:14):
in so many ways. People are coming to christ Church now,
we've managed to keep the cost of housing down. Young
people are coming to the university, walking through round the
River is fantastic, the new sports center, the new stadium.
It's certainly christ Church is really going ahead out of
that disaster.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Of course, at the time you were appointed Minister supporting
Greater christ Church for Regeneration.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
Long title.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah, it's a curly one in terms of looking back
at that time, because I was reporting in christ Church
at that time as well. And I think both you
and I had to do a lot of googling and
try and remember what it was like during that time,
and I completely forgot about the animosity towards Bishop Victoria
(16:05):
Matthews because she was heralded. You know, she was really
championing the idea of a modern cathedral, which would obviously
cost a lot less, and she carried that through all
of the discussions, and of course, after this twenty seventeen
report and decision came out, she resigned six months later.
Speaker 5 (16:25):
Any regrets, I think early on I probably should have
gone to the people who were screaming the loudest and saying,
we can't do it this way, let's talk. We kept
saying we were going to do that, and then there'd
be another last suit and it never happened. I wish
I'd gotten in before one of those lawsuits.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
And who are those people you're talking about.
Speaker 5 (16:47):
I'm not going to name names in terms of groups
at all, heritage people who carried both the reinstatement for
the cathedral, but I'm not getting into names. It's not personal.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Do you think that she's somewhere, perhaps somewhere in Canada,
because she really does have her and I told you
so moment, right.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Because I think we could have had three or four
modern cathedrals by now.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
I think you're right. I think there was a huge
animosity towards her, But I think again, you've got to
consider the context. Everybody's looking for a scapegoat. When you
have a major disaster, everybody pulls together. And I have
to say, I've never been so proud of the people
of christ chur just as they manage that first, you know,
(17:33):
first few days, weeks, months, but after a while, they
get tired, they get worn down, they get fractious, and
everybody's looking for a scapegoat, and this was she was
a pretty good scapegoat. The argument was, oh, she doesn't
understand us, she's foreign. No, she doesn't know. But I
was listening, as I say, I googled and looked back
(17:53):
on her. Everything she said was very reasonable and very
thoughtful and actually in line with what the church should do.
What she said was we only have forty two million dollars.
It's the church itself is not really fit for purpose.
(18:14):
She also made the statement that the whole world went
She said, go to any small town in England and
you'll see a similar building, and she's absolutely right, but
they were not the sort of things we wanted to hear.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
And I think at one point she actually said, it's
not like it's the taj Mahal, that's right.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
It's like, oh, don't like. I mean, she's right, but
don't say it.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Pay that to us. I know, and I don't think
she really I mean, we had long conversations. I would
meet with her every Sunday afternoon and we would have
coffee and we talked and talked and talked and talked,
and she felt bullied by some of these groups. She
felt her intrinsic belief was we should be looking after
(19:02):
the people, that it's only a building. But she could
get no traction on that because everybody says she doesn't understand.
So I I'm listening to her and going through some
of those old interviews. I think she was really reasonable,
but she became a scapegoat and people were rabbit about
(19:24):
how they spoke about her.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, and everything in retrospect.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
Right, we respect absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
When looking at those conversations, it was fiery from the
outside looking in, right, What was it like behind those
closed doors?
Speaker 4 (19:38):
Fiery as well? There were people and I think what
we have to think back again. It's all in context.
When you go back to those times, you have to
see how many things had been broken in christ Church,
how much we had lost, how much people were hurting.
And what you had to do from that is see
(20:01):
that this was part of all of that. There were
people who really made it their mission to look after
the cathedral. Maybe they thought they couldn't control anything else,
but this was really important. We had people from all
around the world. The UNESCO Heritage Group was against the demolition.
(20:22):
The engineers one hundred New Zealand engineers got together and
we're against the demolition. We had two big strong log
lobby groups of local people against the demolition. So basically
where we got to in that stage was we either
reinstated the cathedral or we faced another ten years of
(20:44):
arguing about it. These people were well resourced, they were
going to take it to court, they were going to
fight it to the nth degree. So in terms of
a pragmatic solution, thinking of this broken heart of Christ Church,
if we could patch together a solution, that's what we
were working on and that's what we did. And in
the end it was the Synod who made that final decision,
(21:07):
and I went to the Synod and I talked to
the Synod and I explained what I saw. I also
really believed that it gave the Anglican Church an opportunity
to showcase their place in the center of the city,
and that it could be seen as a positive for
the church. But as I saw, and I didn't realize
(21:29):
that fifty five percent of the synod voted for it.
I didn't know that until I looked it up recently.
So it was pretty touch and go even at that stage,
but I think everybody was united. We cannot go on
arguing forever over this.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
The latest announcement is that they're wanting to reopen it
in stages, So instead of needing eighty five to ninety
five million dollars that's what their shortfall was before, it's
now about forty to forty five million dollars. They want
to open the first stage so like the main area,
by the end of twenty thirty, and the Anglican Church
(22:05):
is actually committing another twenty million dollars towards it. How
does that make you feel that we could be walking
in and sitting down on one of those pews in
just five years time.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
Well, originally part of that plan was it was designed
to be staged two. But it was designed to be
staged with the main part of the cathedral and then
the tower and the spy later. So we'd already gone
down that sort of lego type of building to manage
the money. I think it's a good thing. I think
(22:38):
when you've got the convention center there, when you've got
the whole city coming around the river, we do need
that building to be saying what Christ Church is all about,
and it has set it for, you know, hundreds of years.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Really, thanks for joining us, Nicky, take care.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Thanks Chelsea.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidherld dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is
produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also
our editor.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday for another
look behind the headlines.
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