July 11, 2024 • 19 mins
With a price tag of $153 million – the coalition government’s paving the way for charter schools to make a comeback in 2025.
Government has places to fund 15 charter schools and the conversion of up to 35 state schools to charter schools.
The application process is officially open, despite ongoing criticism from the Opposition and teaching unions about the return of the controversial system.
Today on The Front Page, Associate Minister of Education and character school champion David Seymour joins to discuss the pros and cons of the system.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Sound Engineer: Evan Paea
Producer: Ethan Sills
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Kyota.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. With a
price tag of one hundred and fifty three million dollars.
The Coalition government's paving the way for charter schools to
make it comeback.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
In twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
The government will fund fifteen new charter schools and the
conversion of up to thirty five state schools. The application
process is officially open, despite ongoing criticism from the opposition
and teaching unions about the return of the controversial system.
Today on the Front Page, Associate Minister of Education.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
And Character School Champion David Seymour.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Is with us to discuss the pros and cons of
the system. First off, David, can you tell me what
difference She's a charter school to any other school.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Charter school can be started by a community group. It
could be an EWE, It could be a business. It
could be a charity or a group of educators who
have got frustrated with the public system and have an
idea to engage students better. Alternatively, it can be an
existing state or state integrated school that wants to convert
(01:24):
to charter school status. So once you get past the
genesis of them, there is basically one big difference between
a charter in a state school and a state school.
You have quite extensive stipulation around what money is received
and how it is spent. For example, there's a budget
(01:45):
for buildings, there's a budget for staff. The staff are
actually paid by the government according to government contracts. There
are different funds for different activities like learning support and
so on. With a charter school they get the same
amount of money that would go to a state school
in total, but in cash, so that's the first thing.
(02:08):
They get flexibility of funding. The second thing is that
a state school doesn't actually face any hard requirements for
student attendance and student achievements, so those things are certainly encouraged,
but ultimately, if students don't show up, or students perform
poorly academically at a school, then there's no ultimate consequence
(02:31):
for that. With a charter school, they sign a contract
that says students must attend and students must make progress
towards achievement, and that's important. It's the progress that matters
because obviously some students will start at different levels, but
they must make measurable progress towards achievement. Otherwise they can
(02:53):
lose their funding and be shut down or have their
management taken over by someone who has better ideas for
how to achieve for the students.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Right, So, that big benefit there from charter schools I'm
seeing is responsibility, the ability for schools to be.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Held accountable for poor performance.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
So at the moment, if a state school, say, is
having awful performance, no one's passing in CAA levels and
attendance is poor, are there any consequences?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Well, theoretically a number of things can happen. One is
that the board can be held accountable by the parents.
But what tends to happen is if you have a
community that is very successful has a lot of highly
educated parents, that they will do that quite well. If
you have a community that has some socioeconomic challenges, often
(03:42):
they find they don't actually have the government's capacity and
catability to hold their board accountable or for the board
to hold their principal and staff accountable. And so labor
recognize this when they were in power, they propose effective
setting up regional ministry hubs that would fill a lot
(04:04):
more of governance of each school. They didn't go through
with those reforms for a variety of reasons. That so
happened back in two thousand and eighteen. But this is
a long term problem with the state sector in New
Zealand that we are seeking to solve by changing up
the way that the schools a government and manage. And
(04:27):
of course the other thing that can happen is that
with an adverse Education Review Office report, the government can
replace board of trustees with a commission manager or statutory manager.
That this happens from time to time and some schools
go in and out of statutory management. However, ultimately, if
(04:48):
you don't change the flexibility they have to deliver results
and actually enable them to do things differently, then it's
really just a case of the beatings will continue until
morale improve, and that's never been a successful form. So
you know, in our view, your boy have hard accountability,
(05:09):
but also give their educators flexibility to get involved in
a different way of engaging students.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Not just creating new ones, but converting some state schools
as well. Since Stevens Marty Boys Boarding School also known
as Tippany will become a charter school, they.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
Will look quite different that they'll start doing and finish late.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
But the productivity that I think the prevalents over that
time is really crucial.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Well, there's already a wide range of offerings for parents, though,
write everything from KUTA and public schools to private schools,
public integrated special character correspondence.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Why do parents need another option?
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Well, I acknowledge that there are a wide variety of
schools in New Zealand. But if you start to think
about the choices that parents have if wealthy versus a disadvances,
it's certainly true that parents with money can move to
a more expensive school zone. Until a lot of real
estate advertising is around that parents with money can pay
(06:13):
sometimes twenty five thirty thousand dollars a year per child
after tax to send their children to an independent or
private school. But if you're a parent who doesn't have
those kinds of capabilities, then you may find that actually
you don't have the kind of choices others do. So
I think it's critical that we actually develop choices that
(06:35):
are available regardless of how much money you have. And
in many ways I'm an old fashioned lefty, but I
believe that we pay taxes for education so every child
has the opportunity to be developed to their full academic potential.
I don't think we're doing that right now. And the
actual left wing parties and the form of labor and
(06:56):
grants that they are actually more wedded to the provide
of the education, particularly not the teachers but their unions,
then they are to getting the outcome for the students.
You'll notice I didn't mention Tair party Maldi, who have
told me they're actually very much in favor of charter schools.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
So with the charter school model, could there be any room,
say for religious schools, ones catering to neurodiversity perhaps, or
even schools I've seen in the US there's ones for
LGBTQ plus youth.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Is that a possibility down the track?
Speaker 3 (07:31):
I think probably all of those are possibilities. I mean,
for one thing, we already had a large number of
several hundred religious schools in the form of Catholic and
other denominational state integrated schools, and they from today are
eligible to apply and convert, and they could keep their
religious character. If it was a new startup charter school,
(07:54):
and theory there could be one with a faith based
character that they're going to need to be ready to
include and accept any students who apply, so they still
have to do that in a way that it doesn't
rule without or put off people for a time. Certainly,
(08:14):
we've had expressions of interest already from potential school operators
who would like to cater for students who are neurodiverse.
That that's a major issue for parents and educases made
across the board. I'm not familiar with the old g
B t Q plus school in the United States, but
(08:35):
we would certainly take seriously an application because you know,
there's a lot of challenges that students face around the
development of the sexuality, and it may be that there
are educators who had a good idea for doing that.
I also just make the point that this should be
seen as a massive opportunity for educators because at the moment,
(08:57):
if I hear one complaint from teachers and principles, it
is they are sick and tired of the fans and
the meddling and the education system putting all sorts of demands.
Someone put it to me today, I get seven emails
a day I have to answer from the Ministry of
Education so they can do their job, not for the
benefit of the students in my school and That was
(09:19):
someone I met who was very interested in becoming a
charter school. Because you sign that contract, it's ten year contract,
you get your results, you get your money, and you're
actually free, with professional autonomy to educate in ways that
are successful and actually behave the way that lawyers or
accountants or engineers or architects get to behave with professional
(09:42):
autonomy rather than a highly politicized system.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
When charter schools were scrapped in twenty seventeen, are called
an expensive, failed experiment. Now the Greens are calling the
resurgence of them your kind of vanity project.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
How do you respond to that?
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Well, I start with the second. But you know, I'm
a member of Parliament from EPSOM and the EPSOM Electric.
We don't just have some of their schools in museum.
We're not their schools in the world. So I don't
need to spend or why political capital on running a
type of school that will mainly benefit students from disadvantaged background.
(10:33):
I could just be a member of Parliament from a
very very advantage part of the country with great schools
and never think about this. So it's a strange vanity
project when actually I'm responding to a deep needs in
New Zealand to get better education so that each student
can flourish in their own way, something I believe in
(10:54):
deeply and I think it's for the good of the
whole country. The second thing is I do actually accept
some of the criticisms around the way that charter schools
were funded in the first round from twenty twelve to
twenty eighteen. I think in some cases they actually were
given more money than they should. However, I can absolutely
(11:17):
say that we have reduced the amount of funding that
is available to the exact same amount pursudent that a
state school would receive, something that I have to say
I actually worked hard towards when I took over as
the Undersecretary responsible for charter schools back in twenty fourteen.
(11:38):
Although I acknowledge the funding formulas they are initially set
up in twenty twelve and thirteen, we're not quite right. However,
I think you only got to ask yourself. Why are
the likes of the Green Party sayings? Why are they
opposed to giving professional autonomy to teachers, Why are they
(11:59):
opposed to create a new options, Why are they're posts
to local governments. Why are they versus something that to
party MARII is actually something because they know what a
state centralized education system is done to Mary and other
minorities for that matter. And the answer is it's got
everything to do with lobbying from not the teachers, but
the unions, because those unions take one percent of a
(12:22):
teacher's salary to negotiate collective employee agreements. They know that
charter skills are exempt from collective employment agreements. The individual contracts,
just like any other employer in the museum economy, means
you can get rid of bad teachers. It means you
can pay more to good teachers. And that for the
unions is an existential threat. And it's shameful that labor
(12:43):
of the Greens would rather line up besides middle class
people with comfortable jobs and union officers rather than the
education profession in general and the disadvanced students of this country.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
In terms of why perhaps unions are opposed to these schools,
are you saying that they're worried they won't be getting
their cut.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
The charter schools are an existential threat to the union
because charter schools are not required to use the contracts
that gans negotiate with teachers. Charter schools if they proceed,
will mean that the account of fees paid to union
offices and well is dramatically reduced. And that is the beginning, middle,
(13:27):
and end of their opposition.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Chris Abercrombie is the president of the PPTA. Why are
you not loving this?
Speaker 5 (13:33):
Well, it's just the privatization of a public good, you know,
taking public money and putting into private profit. And they
don't benefit anyone apart from those people who again in
the profit.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Doesn't it benefit some of the kids?
Speaker 5 (13:43):
Well, I think the moons benefit to our students would
be strengthening the state system. They're not cycling money out
of it, so I think there would be the biggest
benefit to the vast majority of students in this country.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
How do we justify paying one hundred and fifty three
million dollars on bringing back charter schools when the public
sector is I guess looking under every cushion and backgroom
cupboard for savings at the.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Moment, because we're funding education for students and this is
part of the public sector. The idea that somehow students
choose to go to a charter school are somehow unworthy
of having their education paid for them, I think as
a criticism from some in the Union movement and some
(14:23):
from the left that really betrays their real motivations. They
don't care enough for children to think that that money
is actually being spent on behalf of children. They only
care about the system, and so they construct this falsehood
that somehow money spent at charter schools, it's not spent
on the children in them.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
And in terms of spending money on kids, I've seen
a couple of comments of from critics saying that it's
a slap in the face of kids, for example, with
complex learning needs finding it quite difficult to access learning
support at the moment.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
What would you say to.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
That, Well, it's certainly true we have a system that
is neglecting the needs of many students. The answer to
that is to accept what we're doing isn't working for
them and create new options for educators to run schools
differently in their way, with accountability throughout. The alternative is
to have endless cry that if only more money was
(15:18):
put into a broken system it would work again. Well,
the truth is that if you look around the world,
their education systems has a vast amounts of money and
got terrible results, and education systems I spent far less
money and got good results. You know, the idea that's
putting more money into the same way of doing things
that isn't working particularly advanced students, is the answer is
(15:42):
not only disproven by the evidence around the world, but
also completely implausible given the government's characters the situation.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
So, in terms of making decisions around these charter schools,
I know it's independent rights and they go through a
couple of stages and decisions will be made by the
end of the year. Would you like to see a
real dove list of those schools that are then decided
to go on to be charter schools.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
I think we will see a very diverse list, because
we have stipulated in government policy that we want to
see a range of schools with different EQI or Equity
Index scores. So you will see schools I hope that
are very highly advantage that want to be part of this,
(16:25):
schools that are not if I'm particularly advantage communities. You'll
see schools that have a religious character or state integrated schools.
You'll see city, and you'll see country, and certainly today
I've seen expressions of interest from every type of school
and when I've sat down with educators who are a
(16:45):
bit skeptical and said, look, it's on a ten year contract.
You get your results of your students showing up and achieving,
which is what you intrinsically want to do anyway as
an educator, and you'll get your money and you won't
have to be harassed or harangued by different fads driven
onto you by you know, Willinson. You don't have to
(17:09):
play endless bureaucracy trying to get the Ministry of Education
to fix your buildings. You just get on with being educated.
But is this real? It's absolutely real. You can apply
as of midday Thursday this week.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
And lastly, Minister, it's been a few months since we
last spoke and the coalition government has passed the six
month mark.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
How are things going? Are you working well together?
Speaker 4 (17:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Look, I think from the point of view of our
opponents have been scarily united and effective. I think we've
done a tremendous job of tackling first of all, the
various hospital passes of inflation, government waste and just really
some absurd spending and projects. So you know, we've certainly
(17:54):
done the firefighting and you're now starting to see things
like resource management, you know, transport policy getting rid of
its speed limits. You know, we're forming crazy fire laws.
There's a whole lot of things where we're actually we've
gone through the sort of slash and burn all the
(18:14):
craziness and actually start building some sensible policies of our
own and the clearing and I think those will help
lead an economic recovery that will deal to the real
pressure that New Zealanders are experiencing in the hangover and
negative momentum of Labour's economic management.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
So you're getting along, well, then no sleepless nights.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
No.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Look, I think we've got three people or three partners
and government three parties sorry, who are completely united by
the hostile circumstances that are facing New Zealanders and a
will to put things right and fix them. And I
think if you look at the announcements coming out day
by day, I think we can say we're doing it.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Or is it because that Winston Peter's in the PM
is so often out of the country.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Well you know they say that as of the country.
They make me the aesting Prime Minister and it's one
ex part I don't mind so much.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Thanks for joining us, Minister, that's it for this episode
of the Front Page. You can read more about today's
stories and extensive news coverage at enziherld dot co dot nz.
The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills and sound
engineer Patty Fox.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday for another
look behind the headlines.
Kyota.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. With a
price tag of one hundred and fifty three million dollars.
The Coalition government's paving the way for charter schools to
make it comeback.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
In twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
The government will fund fifteen new charter schools and the
conversion of up to thirty five state schools. The application
process is officially open, despite ongoing criticism from the opposition
and teaching unions about the return of the controversial system.
Today on the Front Page, Associate Minister of Education.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
And Character School Champion David Seymour.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Is with us to discuss the pros and cons of
the system. First off, David, can you tell me what
difference She's a charter school to any other school.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Charter school can be started by a community group. It
could be an EWE, It could be a business. It
could be a charity or a group of educators who
have got frustrated with the public system and have an
idea to engage students better. Alternatively, it can be an
existing state or state integrated school that wants to convert
(01:24):
to charter school status. So once you get past the
genesis of them, there is basically one big difference between
a charter in a state school and a state school.
You have quite extensive stipulation around what money is received
and how it is spent. For example, there's a budget
(01:45):
for buildings, there's a budget for staff. The staff are
actually paid by the government according to government contracts. There
are different funds for different activities like learning support and
so on. With a charter school they get the same
amount of money that would go to a state school
in total, but in cash, so that's the first thing.
(02:08):
They get flexibility of funding. The second thing is that
a state school doesn't actually face any hard requirements for
student attendance and student achievements, so those things are certainly encouraged,
but ultimately, if students don't show up, or students perform
poorly academically at a school, then there's no ultimate consequence
(02:31):
for that. With a charter school, they sign a contract
that says students must attend and students must make progress
towards achievement, and that's important. It's the progress that matters
because obviously some students will start at different levels, but
they must make measurable progress towards achievement. Otherwise they can
(02:53):
lose their funding and be shut down or have their
management taken over by someone who has better ideas for
how to achieve for the students.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Right, So, that big benefit there from charter schools I'm
seeing is responsibility, the ability for schools to be.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Held accountable for poor performance.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
So at the moment, if a state school, say, is
having awful performance, no one's passing in CAA levels and
attendance is poor, are there any consequences?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Well, theoretically a number of things can happen. One is
that the board can be held accountable by the parents.
But what tends to happen is if you have a
community that is very successful has a lot of highly
educated parents, that they will do that quite well. If
you have a community that has some socioeconomic challenges, often
(03:42):
they find they don't actually have the government's capacity and
catability to hold their board accountable or for the board
to hold their principal and staff accountable. And so labor
recognize this when they were in power, they propose effective
setting up regional ministry hubs that would fill a lot
(04:04):
more of governance of each school. They didn't go through
with those reforms for a variety of reasons. That so
happened back in two thousand and eighteen. But this is
a long term problem with the state sector in New
Zealand that we are seeking to solve by changing up
the way that the schools a government and manage. And
(04:27):
of course the other thing that can happen is that
with an adverse Education Review Office report, the government can
replace board of trustees with a commission manager or statutory manager.
That this happens from time to time and some schools
go in and out of statutory management. However, ultimately, if
(04:48):
you don't change the flexibility they have to deliver results
and actually enable them to do things differently, then it's
really just a case of the beatings will continue until
morale improve, and that's never been a successful form. So
you know, in our view, your boy have hard accountability,
(05:09):
but also give their educators flexibility to get involved in
a different way of engaging students.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Not just creating new ones, but converting some state schools
as well. Since Stevens Marty Boys Boarding School also known
as Tippany will become a charter school, they.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
Will look quite different that they'll start doing and finish late.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
But the productivity that I think the prevalents over that
time is really crucial.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Well, there's already a wide range of offerings for parents, though,
write everything from KUTA and public schools to private schools,
public integrated special character correspondence.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Why do parents need another option?
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Well, I acknowledge that there are a wide variety of
schools in New Zealand. But if you start to think
about the choices that parents have if wealthy versus a disadvances,
it's certainly true that parents with money can move to
a more expensive school zone. Until a lot of real
estate advertising is around that parents with money can pay
(06:13):
sometimes twenty five thirty thousand dollars a year per child
after tax to send their children to an independent or
private school. But if you're a parent who doesn't have
those kinds of capabilities, then you may find that actually
you don't have the kind of choices others do. So
I think it's critical that we actually develop choices that
(06:35):
are available regardless of how much money you have. And
in many ways I'm an old fashioned lefty, but I
believe that we pay taxes for education so every child
has the opportunity to be developed to their full academic potential.
I don't think we're doing that right now. And the
actual left wing parties and the form of labor and
(06:56):
grants that they are actually more wedded to the provide
of the education, particularly not the teachers but their unions,
then they are to getting the outcome for the students.
You'll notice I didn't mention Tair party Maldi, who have
told me they're actually very much in favor of charter schools.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
So with the charter school model, could there be any room,
say for religious schools, ones catering to neurodiversity perhaps, or
even schools I've seen in the US there's ones for
LGBTQ plus youth.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Is that a possibility down the track?
Speaker 3 (07:31):
I think probably all of those are possibilities. I mean,
for one thing, we already had a large number of
several hundred religious schools in the form of Catholic and
other denominational state integrated schools, and they from today are
eligible to apply and convert, and they could keep their
religious character. If it was a new startup charter school,
(07:54):
and theory there could be one with a faith based
character that they're going to need to be ready to
include and accept any students who apply, so they still
have to do that in a way that it doesn't
rule without or put off people for a time. Certainly,
(08:14):
we've had expressions of interest already from potential school operators
who would like to cater for students who are neurodiverse.
That that's a major issue for parents and educases made
across the board. I'm not familiar with the old g
B t Q plus school in the United States, but
(08:35):
we would certainly take seriously an application because you know,
there's a lot of challenges that students face around the
development of the sexuality, and it may be that there
are educators who had a good idea for doing that.
I also just make the point that this should be
seen as a massive opportunity for educators because at the moment,
(08:57):
if I hear one complaint from teachers and principles, it
is they are sick and tired of the fans and
the meddling and the education system putting all sorts of demands.
Someone put it to me today, I get seven emails
a day I have to answer from the Ministry of
Education so they can do their job, not for the
benefit of the students in my school and That was
(09:19):
someone I met who was very interested in becoming a
charter school. Because you sign that contract, it's ten year contract,
you get your results, you get your money, and you're
actually free, with professional autonomy to educate in ways that
are successful and actually behave the way that lawyers or
accountants or engineers or architects get to behave with professional
(09:42):
autonomy rather than a highly politicized system.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
When charter schools were scrapped in twenty seventeen, are called
an expensive, failed experiment. Now the Greens are calling the
resurgence of them your kind of vanity project.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
How do you respond to that?
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Well, I start with the second. But you know, I'm
a member of Parliament from EPSOM and the EPSOM Electric.
We don't just have some of their schools in museum.
We're not their schools in the world. So I don't
need to spend or why political capital on running a
type of school that will mainly benefit students from disadvantaged background.
(10:33):
I could just be a member of Parliament from a
very very advantage part of the country with great schools
and never think about this. So it's a strange vanity
project when actually I'm responding to a deep needs in
New Zealand to get better education so that each student
can flourish in their own way, something I believe in
(10:54):
deeply and I think it's for the good of the
whole country. The second thing is I do actually accept
some of the criticisms around the way that charter schools
were funded in the first round from twenty twelve to
twenty eighteen. I think in some cases they actually were
given more money than they should. However, I can absolutely
(11:17):
say that we have reduced the amount of funding that
is available to the exact same amount pursudent that a
state school would receive, something that I have to say
I actually worked hard towards when I took over as
the Undersecretary responsible for charter schools back in twenty fourteen.
(11:38):
Although I acknowledge the funding formulas they are initially set
up in twenty twelve and thirteen, we're not quite right. However,
I think you only got to ask yourself. Why are
the likes of the Green Party sayings? Why are they
opposed to giving professional autonomy to teachers, Why are they
(11:59):
opposed to create a new options, Why are they're posts
to local governments. Why are they versus something that to
party MARII is actually something because they know what a
state centralized education system is done to Mary and other
minorities for that matter. And the answer is it's got
everything to do with lobbying from not the teachers, but
the unions, because those unions take one percent of a
(12:22):
teacher's salary to negotiate collective employee agreements. They know that
charter skills are exempt from collective employment agreements. The individual contracts,
just like any other employer in the museum economy, means
you can get rid of bad teachers. It means you
can pay more to good teachers. And that for the
unions is an existential threat. And it's shameful that labor
(12:43):
of the Greens would rather line up besides middle class
people with comfortable jobs and union officers rather than the
education profession in general and the disadvanced students of this country.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
In terms of why perhaps unions are opposed to these schools,
are you saying that they're worried they won't be getting
their cut.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
The charter schools are an existential threat to the union
because charter schools are not required to use the contracts
that gans negotiate with teachers. Charter schools if they proceed,
will mean that the account of fees paid to union
offices and well is dramatically reduced. And that is the beginning, middle,
(13:27):
and end of their opposition.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Chris Abercrombie is the president of the PPTA. Why are
you not loving this?
Speaker 5 (13:33):
Well, it's just the privatization of a public good, you know,
taking public money and putting into private profit. And they
don't benefit anyone apart from those people who again in
the profit.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Doesn't it benefit some of the kids?
Speaker 5 (13:43):
Well, I think the moons benefit to our students would
be strengthening the state system. They're not cycling money out
of it, so I think there would be the biggest
benefit to the vast majority of students in this country.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
How do we justify paying one hundred and fifty three
million dollars on bringing back charter schools when the public
sector is I guess looking under every cushion and backgroom
cupboard for savings at the.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Moment, because we're funding education for students and this is
part of the public sector. The idea that somehow students
choose to go to a charter school are somehow unworthy
of having their education paid for them, I think as
a criticism from some in the Union movement and some
(14:23):
from the left that really betrays their real motivations. They
don't care enough for children to think that that money
is actually being spent on behalf of children. They only
care about the system, and so they construct this falsehood
that somehow money spent at charter schools, it's not spent
on the children in them.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
And in terms of spending money on kids, I've seen
a couple of comments of from critics saying that it's
a slap in the face of kids, for example, with
complex learning needs finding it quite difficult to access learning
support at the moment.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
What would you say to.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
That, Well, it's certainly true we have a system that
is neglecting the needs of many students. The answer to
that is to accept what we're doing isn't working for
them and create new options for educators to run schools
differently in their way, with accountability throughout. The alternative is
to have endless cry that if only more money was
(15:18):
put into a broken system it would work again. Well,
the truth is that if you look around the world,
their education systems has a vast amounts of money and
got terrible results, and education systems I spent far less
money and got good results. You know, the idea that's
putting more money into the same way of doing things
that isn't working particularly advanced students, is the answer is
(15:42):
not only disproven by the evidence around the world, but
also completely implausible given the government's characters the situation.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
So, in terms of making decisions around these charter schools,
I know it's independent rights and they go through a
couple of stages and decisions will be made by the
end of the year. Would you like to see a
real dove list of those schools that are then decided
to go on to be charter schools.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
I think we will see a very diverse list, because
we have stipulated in government policy that we want to
see a range of schools with different EQI or Equity
Index scores. So you will see schools I hope that
are very highly advantage that want to be part of this,
(16:25):
schools that are not if I'm particularly advantage communities. You'll
see schools that have a religious character or state integrated schools.
You'll see city, and you'll see country, and certainly today
I've seen expressions of interest from every type of school
and when I've sat down with educators who are a
(16:45):
bit skeptical and said, look, it's on a ten year contract.
You get your results of your students showing up and achieving,
which is what you intrinsically want to do anyway as
an educator, and you'll get your money and you won't
have to be harassed or harangued by different fads driven
onto you by you know, Willinson. You don't have to
(17:09):
play endless bureaucracy trying to get the Ministry of Education
to fix your buildings. You just get on with being educated.
But is this real? It's absolutely real. You can apply
as of midday Thursday this week.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
And lastly, Minister, it's been a few months since we
last spoke and the coalition government has passed the six
month mark.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
How are things going? Are you working well together?
Speaker 4 (17:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Look, I think from the point of view of our
opponents have been scarily united and effective. I think we've
done a tremendous job of tackling first of all, the
various hospital passes of inflation, government waste and just really
some absurd spending and projects. So you know, we've certainly
(17:54):
done the firefighting and you're now starting to see things
like resource management, you know, transport policy getting rid of
its speed limits. You know, we're forming crazy fire laws.
There's a whole lot of things where we're actually we've
gone through the sort of slash and burn all the
(18:14):
craziness and actually start building some sensible policies of our
own and the clearing and I think those will help
lead an economic recovery that will deal to the real
pressure that New Zealanders are experiencing in the hangover and
negative momentum of Labour's economic management.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
So you're getting along, well, then no sleepless nights.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
No.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Look, I think we've got three people or three partners
and government three parties sorry, who are completely united by
the hostile circumstances that are facing New Zealanders and a
will to put things right and fix them. And I
think if you look at the announcements coming out day
by day, I think we can say we're doing it.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Or is it because that Winston Peter's in the PM
is so often out of the country.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Well you know they say that as of the country.
They make me the aesting Prime Minister and it's one
ex part I don't mind so much.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Thanks for joining us, Minister, that's it for this episode
of the Front Page. You can read more about today's
stories and extensive news coverage at enziherld dot co dot nz.
The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills and sound
engineer Patty Fox.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday for another
look behind the headlines.
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