August 25, 2024 • 14 mins
There was an outbreak of the virus – formerly known as Monkeypox – back in 2022, but a new variant that originated in the Democratic Republic of Congo has proved fatal, with dozens of deaths from thousands of cases.
The new variant has also been found beyond the borders of Africa, sparking warnings by the World Health Organisation, and calls for international support to stem this outbreak.
Today on The Front Page, University of Auckland associate professor and co-director of the Global Vaccine Data Network, Dr Helen Petousis-Harris, joins us to explain what you need to know about this new outbreak.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Sound Engineer: Paddy Fox
Producer: Ethan Sills
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kyoda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page,
a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. There
was an outbreak of the virus formerly known as monkey
pox back in twenty twenty two, but a new variant
that originated in the Democratic Republic of Congo has proved fatal,
(00:28):
with dozens of deaths from thousands of cases. The new
variant has also been found beyond the borders of Africa,
sparking warnings by the World Health Organization and calls for
international support to stem this outbreak. Today on the Front Page,
University of Auckland Associate professor and co director of the
(00:52):
Global Vaccine Data Network, doctor Helen Patussus Harris, joins us
to explain what you need to.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Know about this new out break.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Helen, what is ampox, what sort of virus is it
and what symptoms does it create?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
And generally how does it spread.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
It's a member of a family called orthpox viruses, and
it's not a new virus at all. It's quite closely
related to the smallpox virus, which caused havoc for thousands
of years in our history. It doesn't spread that easily.
It's not airborne or anything. But it is spread through
(01:32):
close contact, particularly people who have the lesions. Before those
have held over, they're infectious and they can be also
infectious for a little while before they start showing symptoms
as well.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
What kind of symptoms does it create?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
We, like so many diseases we talk about, it tends
to start with flu like illness with fever and cherll,
swollen lymph nodes, feeling really tired, headache, and also potentially
some congesture. So very much those symptoms you get when
your immune system starting to respond to something, and then
(02:06):
there's this rash that's pretty horrible to look at and
can be extremely painful.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Am I right to say that this used to be
called monkey pocks? What led to the name change?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Well, yeh, I think we appreciate now it's pretty uncool
to name diseases after people, places, or animals, because that
can come with a degree of stigma, which is usually
pretty unwarranted.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
You know.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
An example is, you know, with the outbreak of this
that happened in twenty twenty two in Brazil, people started
to kill monkeys because they were concerned that they were
going to get this pox from monkeys. So there's been
a move over some years now to move away from
those sort of names, so hence now it's called MPOs.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
What does this mean for the average person, the.
Speaker 5 (02:54):
Average person, say in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
I mean the first identification of the virus was actually
teen fifty three in a lab in Denmark that was
among monkeys, hence the name. But actually the first case
in humans was noted in nineteen seventy in an infant,
and from their cases sort of just growing slowly in
(03:17):
some of the central African countries, including Nigeria. So there's
a couple of clades, and there's a clade that is
primarily found in the Congo, which is called Clade one,
and the one in Nigeria is called clade two, so
they're slightly different sort of clades. But those cases there
in Africa have slowly been growing over the decades until
(03:39):
suddenly some cases started to pop up outside of Africa.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah, I remember a few years ago there was an
outbreak of EMPOS that spread largely through the gay community.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
How did that start and is it linked to this
current outbreak.
Speaker 5 (03:54):
It's not linked to the current outbreak. That one started either.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Understand somebody from the UK had visited Nigeria and went back,
and I did understand that there were some festivals or
something on, so you had this sort of super spreader
event and the cases sort of spilled out from there,
which is where we saw that twenty two to twenty
three outbreak. That was a different clade than the one
(04:20):
that we've got at the moment. So in twenty twenty
two it was.
Speaker 5 (04:24):
The clade two. This time it's the clade one, which has.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Been more dominant in the Democratic Republic of Congo. This one,
it's developed mutations that have enabled it to better spread
person to person, so you're seeing it affecting both children
and adults.
Speaker 6 (04:45):
The World Health Organization has declared empox outbreaks in Congo
and other African countries a global health emergency. It's from
same family as smallpox, but the symptoms are a little
bit less, such as body eggs and fevers as well
as well. Than five hundred people have died from the
virus and thousands of people have been infected. This is
(05:05):
more than one hundred and sixty percent increase of cases
from the same time last year and nearly a twenty
percent increase in the number of debts.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
What more can you tell us about this current outbreak,
in particular the fact the virus is now contributing to
a higher mortality rate.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Am I right, Well, here may be it's been quite
difficult to ascertain the mortality rate because you sort of
have to know how many cases you've got, and for
a long time, probably had a lot of cases that
were going undetected, particularly due to for example, in Nigeria,
(05:43):
they criminalize same sex activity also expression of trans people.
The maximum penalty is actually a death sentence. So if
you presented with this pox and you may be seen
to be affiliated with these practices, it could be very
debtrial mental to you, so you can sort of appreciate
why people might keep quite quiet about it.
Speaker 5 (06:05):
So it's really hard to know.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
And we've seen a lower mortality rate outside of Africa,
so you've also got different populations, You've probably got different healthcare.
Speaker 5 (06:15):
So I think that's a good question.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
But yes, this one does seem to be more lethal
than the other one.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Is connecting mpox with the LGBTQ plus community, Is that
a bit of a misnomer.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Yeah, because it's spread through close contacts, so you just
have to have close contact that can spread in family households,
you can come into contact with the say the bed linen,
for example. You don't need to have sex to transmit
or to become infected with us. So there's a lot
of ways and a lot of knowledge that we still
(06:47):
need to unpack to better understand it.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
The World Health Organization has declared this an international public
health emergency. How does that translate to authorities here?
Speaker 3 (06:58):
It's a move that sort of elevates people's awareness and
also requires a coordinated international response, puts more of a
priority on it. For example, the focus on therapeutics and
vaccines for example, and also for people to collaborate, countries,
nations to collaborate in sharing their knowledge. So if you
(07:20):
want to dampen down an outbreak or control it or
eliminate it, you need to collaborate. Because people just hop
on planes all the time, and of course the infection,
that's how it pops up all over the place and
how it's spread. In twenty twenty two, it's a plane
rid of way.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Some health experts say that this is concerning not just
for Africa but for the world. But the world's likely
only going to care now that it's a.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Risk to them.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
I suppose do we need to reevaluate this support given
to places like Africa, particularly around their health system.
Speaker 5 (08:04):
Absolutely absolutely. I know we're an island, but we're not really.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
It is a global community, and when it comes to
infectious diseases that I appreciate borders and it is horrible.
You know when you see oh, now, it's interesting because
you know it might affect us well. People have been
warning about these pos viruses as potential emergent diseases for
quite some time. They were warning about coronaviruses long before
(08:30):
our current pandemic. These are just an example of pathogens
that can sort of emerge beyond where they're currently endemic
to affect the global community.
Speaker 5 (08:40):
So obviously the easiest thing.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
To do would be to deal with the outbreaks at
the source before they become a problem. But of course
that hasn't occurred because again, we don't pay so much attention.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
I remember reading a few years ago about how Africa
had just gotten a handle on a bowler, and when
that news came out, I remember having conversations with people
who were shocked that it.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Was actually still a thing.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
But it was still a problem in Africa, right, And
they seem to be battling that for decades after the
rest of the world, and that's one of those examples
of the rest of us turning away from it.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
I guess, yeah, it's I guess it's human nature, isn't it,
Because there's so much that goes on in the world
that it's impossible to pay attention to all of it
until it comes knocking on your own door. But yeah,
the Ebola epidemics, I guess the good news is that
effective vaccines were able to help control those and also
(09:35):
the improvement in awareness and education for people, because again
a bola is not the most infectious disease known to man,
and through good education and fiction control measures and also
now some effective vaccines, it dampens down that threat. But
it shouldn't come to that. That was always on the list.
(09:56):
That's another example of a virus that's been on the
list for a long time of potential emerging diseases.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Are we seeing pharmaceutical companies prioritize a vaccine against mpox?
I remember when there was that outbreak and I think
you said twenty twenty two in the gay community.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
The vaccines were quite limited, weren't they.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Well, yes, and no, Actually, lucky for US something prepared
earlier thanks to smallpox, which was eradicated in nineteen eighty.
But the small pox vaccine is also protective against empox
potentially other pox viruses as well. So what had been
(10:38):
stockpiled for years were doses of the what we'd call
the second generation small pox vaccine. That's not an ideal vaccine,
and actually because people hadn't been using it under these
sorts of conditions, I guess I didn't really know if
it was actually going to be effective under the circumstances.
Speaker 5 (10:56):
But fortunately, because it's always on the radar small pox,
and then when we.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Saw impos appearing more and more in Africa, vaccines were
considered also as having utility against impos. So the third
generation vaccine is made by a company in Denmark, and
there was stocks in twenty twenty two. They had actually
diverted their manufacturing at the time because you don't actually
(11:27):
have a very good market other than perhaps a defense
force or something for these sort of vaccines, so it's
not exactly a good money spinner. But they've now diverted
back to focus on this vaccine.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
It'll be about one hundred dollars per dose for these vaccines.
Speaker 5 (11:45):
Will African countries be able to get enough of.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
Them to be able to contain this outbring I don't
think so. I'm grateful for the Japan government who give
a donation of three million point five hundred doses of
these vaccines to DFC, but as we knew, we have
the limitation of funding, and it's very important that people
do the best to look for money to fund these vaccinations.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Some good news is that they very recently announced a
collaboration with the African CDC to not just provide fifteen
million doses to these African countries who.
Speaker 5 (12:24):
Have these risks, but also to collaborate.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
With them so that the manufacturing capabilities in Africa are
enhancement they can make the vaccine themselves, which I think
is really really important.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Do you think the world has learned anything from COVID
and use that information to kind of stop empocks spreading further.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
To say, yes, it's still pretty fresh, but it's actually
quite amazing at how quickly people forget and these threats
aren't going to go away. This wasn't you know, COVID
wasn't the one for the century. There's a whole lot
of other potential threats there, so we sort of can't
take the eye off the ball, like, for example, the
(13:07):
African continent having their own capacity is one really important step, actually,
and that's something that needs a lot more attention diverted
to it, I.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Think, and even the general population as well. I suppose
we all felt that fatigue after the COVID pandemic, and
then you saw very quickly people coming to work without
the face mask on when you've got a little bit
of a cough, and you can kind of see everything
going back to normal, so to speak. But we really
should be adopting some of those measures that we did
do in COVID in our everyday lives from now on,
(13:38):
shouldn't we.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
It's always been good practice, and I sort of I
think most people's nanners would have told them that because
they knew that washing your hands and all of that
was good. And I think we had better behavior back then,
I think than we do now. I think peraps, a
lot's taken for granted, where we just have this absence
in our face of disease and very short mentor so.
(14:01):
I hope the global scientific community have learned a lot
from COVID, and there's also a lot of infrastructure that
got put in and that we would hopefully be able
to leverage off. But of course having the political will
is probably a different story. You know, if you want
to need resources, you need to have political commitment and leadership.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Thanks for joining us, Helen.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
That said, for this episode of the Front Page, you
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at NZED herold dot co dot z. The Front Page
is produced by Ethan Sells with sound engineer Patty Fox.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look
behind the headlines.
Kyoda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page,
a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. There
was an outbreak of the virus formerly known as monkey
pox back in twenty twenty two, but a new variant
that originated in the Democratic Republic of Congo has proved fatal,
(00:28):
with dozens of deaths from thousands of cases. The new
variant has also been found beyond the borders of Africa,
sparking warnings by the World Health Organization and calls for
international support to stem this outbreak. Today on the Front Page,
University of Auckland Associate professor and co director of the
(00:52):
Global Vaccine Data Network, doctor Helen Patussus Harris, joins us
to explain what you need to.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Know about this new out break.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Helen, what is ampox, what sort of virus is it
and what symptoms does it create?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
And generally how does it spread.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
It's a member of a family called orthpox viruses, and
it's not a new virus at all. It's quite closely
related to the smallpox virus, which caused havoc for thousands
of years in our history. It doesn't spread that easily.
It's not airborne or anything. But it is spread through
(01:32):
close contact, particularly people who have the lesions. Before those
have held over, they're infectious and they can be also
infectious for a little while before they start showing symptoms
as well.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
What kind of symptoms does it create?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
We, like so many diseases we talk about, it tends
to start with flu like illness with fever and cherll,
swollen lymph nodes, feeling really tired, headache, and also potentially
some congesture. So very much those symptoms you get when
your immune system starting to respond to something, and then
(02:06):
there's this rash that's pretty horrible to look at and
can be extremely painful.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Am I right to say that this used to be
called monkey pocks? What led to the name change?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Well, yeh, I think we appreciate now it's pretty uncool
to name diseases after people, places, or animals, because that
can come with a degree of stigma, which is usually
pretty unwarranted.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
You know.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
An example is, you know, with the outbreak of this
that happened in twenty twenty two in Brazil, people started
to kill monkeys because they were concerned that they were
going to get this pox from monkeys. So there's been
a move over some years now to move away from
those sort of names, so hence now it's called MPOs.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
What does this mean for the average person, the.
Speaker 5 (02:54):
Average person, say in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
I mean the first identification of the virus was actually
teen fifty three in a lab in Denmark that was
among monkeys, hence the name. But actually the first case
in humans was noted in nineteen seventy in an infant,
and from their cases sort of just growing slowly in
(03:17):
some of the central African countries, including Nigeria. So there's
a couple of clades, and there's a clade that is
primarily found in the Congo, which is called Clade one,
and the one in Nigeria is called clade two, so
they're slightly different sort of clades. But those cases there
in Africa have slowly been growing over the decades until
(03:39):
suddenly some cases started to pop up outside of Africa.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah, I remember a few years ago there was an
outbreak of EMPOS that spread largely through the gay community.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
How did that start and is it linked to this
current outbreak.
Speaker 5 (03:54):
It's not linked to the current outbreak. That one started either.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Understand somebody from the UK had visited Nigeria and went back,
and I did understand that there were some festivals or
something on, so you had this sort of super spreader
event and the cases sort of spilled out from there,
which is where we saw that twenty two to twenty
three outbreak. That was a different clade than the one
(04:20):
that we've got at the moment. So in twenty twenty
two it was.
Speaker 5 (04:24):
The clade two. This time it's the clade one, which has.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Been more dominant in the Democratic Republic of Congo. This one,
it's developed mutations that have enabled it to better spread
person to person, so you're seeing it affecting both children
and adults.
Speaker 6 (04:45):
The World Health Organization has declared empox outbreaks in Congo
and other African countries a global health emergency. It's from
same family as smallpox, but the symptoms are a little
bit less, such as body eggs and fevers as well
as well. Than five hundred people have died from the
virus and thousands of people have been infected. This is
(05:05):
more than one hundred and sixty percent increase of cases
from the same time last year and nearly a twenty
percent increase in the number of debts.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
What more can you tell us about this current outbreak,
in particular the fact the virus is now contributing to
a higher mortality rate.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Am I right, Well, here may be it's been quite
difficult to ascertain the mortality rate because you sort of
have to know how many cases you've got, and for
a long time, probably had a lot of cases that
were going undetected, particularly due to for example, in Nigeria,
(05:43):
they criminalize same sex activity also expression of trans people.
The maximum penalty is actually a death sentence. So if
you presented with this pox and you may be seen
to be affiliated with these practices, it could be very
debtrial mental to you, so you can sort of appreciate
why people might keep quite quiet about it.
Speaker 5 (06:05):
So it's really hard to know.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
And we've seen a lower mortality rate outside of Africa,
so you've also got different populations, You've probably got different healthcare.
Speaker 5 (06:15):
So I think that's a good question.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
But yes, this one does seem to be more lethal
than the other one.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Is connecting mpox with the LGBTQ plus community, Is that
a bit of a misnomer.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Yeah, because it's spread through close contacts, so you just
have to have close contact that can spread in family households,
you can come into contact with the say the bed linen,
for example. You don't need to have sex to transmit
or to become infected with us. So there's a lot
of ways and a lot of knowledge that we still
(06:47):
need to unpack to better understand it.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
The World Health Organization has declared this an international public
health emergency. How does that translate to authorities here?
Speaker 3 (06:58):
It's a move that sort of elevates people's awareness and
also requires a coordinated international response, puts more of a
priority on it. For example, the focus on therapeutics and
vaccines for example, and also for people to collaborate, countries,
nations to collaborate in sharing their knowledge. So if you
(07:20):
want to dampen down an outbreak or control it or
eliminate it, you need to collaborate. Because people just hop
on planes all the time, and of course the infection,
that's how it pops up all over the place and
how it's spread. In twenty twenty two, it's a plane
rid of way.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Some health experts say that this is concerning not just
for Africa but for the world. But the world's likely
only going to care now that it's a.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Risk to them.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
I suppose do we need to reevaluate this support given
to places like Africa, particularly around their health system.
Speaker 5 (08:04):
Absolutely absolutely. I know we're an island, but we're not really.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
It is a global community, and when it comes to
infectious diseases that I appreciate borders and it is horrible.
You know when you see oh, now, it's interesting because
you know it might affect us well. People have been
warning about these pos viruses as potential emergent diseases for
quite some time. They were warning about coronaviruses long before
(08:30):
our current pandemic. These are just an example of pathogens
that can sort of emerge beyond where they're currently endemic
to affect the global community.
Speaker 5 (08:40):
So obviously the easiest thing.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
To do would be to deal with the outbreaks at
the source before they become a problem. But of course
that hasn't occurred because again, we don't pay so much attention.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
I remember reading a few years ago about how Africa
had just gotten a handle on a bowler, and when
that news came out, I remember having conversations with people
who were shocked that it.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Was actually still a thing.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
But it was still a problem in Africa, right, And
they seem to be battling that for decades after the
rest of the world, and that's one of those examples
of the rest of us turning away from it.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
I guess, yeah, it's I guess it's human nature, isn't it,
Because there's so much that goes on in the world
that it's impossible to pay attention to all of it
until it comes knocking on your own door. But yeah,
the Ebola epidemics, I guess the good news is that
effective vaccines were able to help control those and also
(09:35):
the improvement in awareness and education for people, because again
a bola is not the most infectious disease known to man,
and through good education and fiction control measures and also
now some effective vaccines, it dampens down that threat. But
it shouldn't come to that. That was always on the list.
(09:56):
That's another example of a virus that's been on the
list for a long time of potential emerging diseases.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Are we seeing pharmaceutical companies prioritize a vaccine against mpox?
I remember when there was that outbreak and I think
you said twenty twenty two in the gay community.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
The vaccines were quite limited, weren't they.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Well, yes, and no, Actually, lucky for US something prepared
earlier thanks to smallpox, which was eradicated in nineteen eighty.
But the small pox vaccine is also protective against empox
potentially other pox viruses as well. So what had been
(10:38):
stockpiled for years were doses of the what we'd call
the second generation small pox vaccine. That's not an ideal vaccine,
and actually because people hadn't been using it under these
sorts of conditions, I guess I didn't really know if
it was actually going to be effective under the circumstances.
Speaker 5 (10:56):
But fortunately, because it's always on the radar small pox,
and then when we.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Saw impos appearing more and more in Africa, vaccines were
considered also as having utility against impos. So the third
generation vaccine is made by a company in Denmark, and
there was stocks in twenty twenty two. They had actually
diverted their manufacturing at the time because you don't actually
(11:27):
have a very good market other than perhaps a defense
force or something for these sort of vaccines, so it's
not exactly a good money spinner. But they've now diverted
back to focus on this vaccine.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
It'll be about one hundred dollars per dose for these vaccines.
Speaker 5 (11:45):
Will African countries be able to get enough of.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
Them to be able to contain this outbring I don't
think so. I'm grateful for the Japan government who give
a donation of three million point five hundred doses of
these vaccines to DFC, but as we knew, we have
the limitation of funding, and it's very important that people
do the best to look for money to fund these vaccinations.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Some good news is that they very recently announced a
collaboration with the African CDC to not just provide fifteen
million doses to these African countries who.
Speaker 5 (12:24):
Have these risks, but also to collaborate.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
With them so that the manufacturing capabilities in Africa are
enhancement they can make the vaccine themselves, which I think
is really really important.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Do you think the world has learned anything from COVID
and use that information to kind of stop empocks spreading further.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
To say, yes, it's still pretty fresh, but it's actually
quite amazing at how quickly people forget and these threats
aren't going to go away. This wasn't you know, COVID
wasn't the one for the century. There's a whole lot
of other potential threats there, so we sort of can't
take the eye off the ball, like, for example, the
(13:07):
African continent having their own capacity is one really important step, actually,
and that's something that needs a lot more attention diverted
to it, I.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Think, and even the general population as well. I suppose
we all felt that fatigue after the COVID pandemic, and
then you saw very quickly people coming to work without
the face mask on when you've got a little bit
of a cough, and you can kind of see everything
going back to normal, so to speak. But we really
should be adopting some of those measures that we did
do in COVID in our everyday lives from now on,
(13:38):
shouldn't we.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
It's always been good practice, and I sort of I
think most people's nanners would have told them that because
they knew that washing your hands and all of that
was good. And I think we had better behavior back then,
I think than we do now. I think peraps, a
lot's taken for granted, where we just have this absence
in our face of disease and very short mentor so.
(14:01):
I hope the global scientific community have learned a lot
from COVID, and there's also a lot of infrastructure that
got put in and that we would hopefully be able
to leverage off. But of course having the political will
is probably a different story. You know, if you want
to need resources, you need to have political commitment and leadership.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Thanks for joining us, Helen.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
That said, for this episode of the Front Page, you
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at NZED herold dot co dot z. The Front Page
is produced by Ethan Sells with sound engineer Patty Fox.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look
behind the headlines.
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