December 23, 2024 • 20 mins
While The Front Page is on summer break, we’re taking a look back at some of the biggest news stories and top-rated episodes from the podcast in 2024.
Travelling is often a stressful experience, particularly over the Christmas break and summer holidays when it seems we’re all rushing to get away.
Those trips aren’t made easy when violent turbulence or technical errors have an impact.
In 2024, stories of extreme turbulence popped up around the world, including one case in April when a man onboard an Air New Zealand flight from Bali broke his leg, while in May, a violent Singapore Airlines flight saw dozens hospitalised and one passenger die.
That’s on top of multiple stories locally of domestic and international flights impacted by landing and technical issues.
To get insight on this, in July, we spoke to the chief executive of Massey University’s School of Aviation, Ashok Podavul about whether we should be concerned – and stay tuned for advice on what you can do if things go wrong for you this summer from Consumer NZ’s Jessica Walker.
New episodes return January 13th.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Audio Engineers: Paddy Fox, Richard Martin
Executive Producer: Ethan Sills
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Yota.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is a summer special of
The Front Page, The Enzid Herald's daily news podcast. While
the Front Page is on summer break, we're taking a
look back at some of the biggest news stories and
top rated episodes from the podcast in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
New episodes will.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Return on January thirteenth. Traveling is often a stressful experience,
particularly over the Christmas break and summer holidays, when it
seems we're all rushing to get away. Those trips aren't
made easy when violent turbulence or technical errors have an impact.
(00:49):
In twenty twenty four, stories of extreme turbulence popped up
around the world, including one case in April when a
man on board an Air New Zealand flow from Balley
broke his leg, while in May, a violent Singapore Airlines
flight saw dozens hospitalized and one passenger die. That's all
(01:11):
on top of multiple stories locally of domestic and international
flights impacted by landing and technical issues. To get insight
on this, in July, we spoke to the chief executive
of Massy University's School of Aviation, a shock Potoval, about
whether we should be concerned and stay tuned for advice
(01:32):
on what you can do if things go wrong for
you this summer from Consumer and.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Z's Jessica Walker.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Just to start with a shock, I understand you've got
over twelve thousand hours of airlines jet flying experience.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Is that right?
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Oh? Yes, that would be correct, So.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
You know what you're talking about when it comes to planes.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
I would like to think so.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
So a shock.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
When we talk about turbulence, what do we referring to exactly?
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Well, turbulence has simply put the movement of air created
by atmospheric pressure. You know things called jet streams flow
around mountains, thunderstorms, et cetera. To give you an analogy,
it's like a car is traveling at six hundred kilometers
per hour. If it hits a bumpy stretch of road,
you'll be jolted in the air. It's basically horizontal or
vertical changes in wind speed, which is called wind shear,
(02:25):
that happens when the aircraft is traveling through the air,
and that causes the turbulence.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Why do you think extreme turbulence is becoming more of
an issue now? I've seen some suggestions that climate change
is to blame.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Well, all I can said, the stage is that is
a theory that is being put forward, and the number
of incidents of turbulence in recent times have been more
in quick succession. Put it that way. Whether this is
going to be an ongoing trend or not remains to
be seen. But there is a study that you or
(02:58):
may may or may not seen by the University of
Reading where they have talked about the link between climate
change and turbulence and they're forecasting that turbulence incidents are
going to increase in future. They've done a study from
nineteen seventy nine onwards, I believe, and they're forecasting that
(03:20):
the increase due to basically a climate change is what
they're saying, there would be more incidents of turbulence. But
at the moment, I would say this could be a
cluster because you have things like cluster of events happening
random events, and that then creates a perception that there
is an increase in that particular type of event.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
There's also been dozens of stories in recent weeks involving
planes departing New Zealand and then actually having to turn
around mid flight due to technical issues. What goes into
that decision making to turn a flight around.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Well, that entirely depends on the nature of the issue Chelsea,
because if it is an issue that would impact the
progress of the flight ongoing and it's not safe, then
the pilots would take a decision to come back. And
a lot of these decisions are also taken in conjunction
with the ground because most airlines have something called an
integrated Operations Control Center, and so they're constantly in touch
with the aircraft, so the nature of the problem is
(04:16):
communicated there, and then the pilots can make a decision
either to carry on or to divert to an alternate
air field, or to turn around and come back. So
it just depends on the circumstances.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
And I suppose we can have solace in the fact
that if a flight does have to turn around, it
really does, doesn't I saw it just yesterday an Auckland
to China flight had to turn back after seven hours
of flying. Could you imagine being up in the air
for fourteen hours and ending up in the same place
where you left off from. But I can imagine that
(04:48):
there would have been some serious conversations and it would
have actually had to seriously turn back.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
Hey, absolutely correct, that kind of a decision is not
made by one individual. They said, communicate the information that's
available the OPS control center, which has engineers, which has
operations people, you know, the whole range of the commercial
staff there, and then they make a considered decision. Something
like this are not made likely. Just now passengers are
not going to be very happy with that.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
The Virgin Australia flight from Queenstown to Melbourne has been
diverted to in Vericago.
Speaker 6 (05:22):
We have just received this video of the plane with
flames being seen coming from one of the engines.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
It started out as a seemingly normal landing in christ Church,
but soon flight JQ two to five from Auckland slid
off the runway.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
We've seen two problem flights at Invercargo Airport, of all places,
in the past month. One Melbourne bound flight from Queenstown
had to make an emergency landing after the engines seemed
to catch fire, while a domestic flight had to circle
the surrounding area for two hours after landing gear issues.
In your experience as a pilot, how common technical issues
(06:02):
like this.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
I have a background of mathematics, you know, the probability
of something happening is mathematically extremely low. There are about
roughly between ninety nine thousand to one hundred thousand flights
globally every day. With that volume of flights, if you
have a few odd incidents happening, I don't know if
they happen every day, percentage or probability of the currents
(06:24):
of such events is extremely rare. Now, the one about
the engine fire. You talked about. Engine fires are very rare,
so our aircraft fires, catastrophic failures are extremely rare. Just
a little bit of information for you if you're interested
that for an aircraft to be certified, the risk of
any catastrophic component failure, the components that are critical and
(06:46):
that would cause a catastrophic failure, the risk of that
has to be lower than one to ten to the
power of nine, one upon ten to the power of nine,
or ten to the power of minus nine. It has
to be lower than that. So basically what you're saying is,
if you've or ten dice and the chances of all
of them coming up with the same number, the probable
of a catastrophic failure has to be less than that.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Does the public have a right to panic in these situations?
Speaker 1 (07:09):
And what would your advice be.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Okay, so let's look at what can be done about it.
One of the things that I always advocate is keeping
the seat bills on at all times when seated, even
if you're sleeping. Keep the seat bilts on, perhaps loosely,
but keep it on. And you may see that most
salelines have an announcement saying it's recommended that seat bills
should be kept on. I'm not sure if any measures
(07:32):
are going to be taken now, with increasing number of
turbulence incident possibilities, whether they will mandate that, because for
takeoff and landing it's mandated you have to have your
seat bilts on in the air during crews. Whether you
have to keep it on or not as a mandatory requirement,
I'm not sure, but there is conversations happening around that.
But keeping it on at all times except maybe you're
taking a stretching your legs or going to the toilet
(07:53):
is most important. That's one that's really the key thing
that a passenger can do when on flight to remain safe.
It's no different from bearing a seat bill when you're
in the car driving.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Earlier this year we saw several incidents involving Boeing planes
are you concerned at all by what you're saying in
regards to Boeing.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Boeing has unfortunately had some issues around quality assurance, and
there's investigations going on in America. Federal Avition Administration has
started investigations. The Boeing chief executive has had to face
a Senate hearing a while ago about these issues. There
are thousands, hundreds of thousands of Boeing aircraft flying across
the world. So I don't see any immediate serious issue because,
(08:35):
once again the aviation industry, the moment anything is identified
that could be a significant risk, they've ground the entire fleet,
like you might have heard about the Boeing Max issues,
which happened when two AMX aircraft crashed some some years ago,
and then they grounded the whole Max fleet for about
two years before they could get it back up into
the air. So the safety structure scaffolding around airline operations
(08:59):
or aircraft operations is quite robust.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
When we talk about quality assurance issues within Boeing and
that's being investigated. Is that like taking your analogy with
the dice. Have they not rolled that dice ten times?
Speaker 4 (09:11):
I suppose not exactly, just that there were some vessel
blowers who talked about them taking some shortcuts, you know,
where the commercial imperative overcomes the safety impertative, so to
Pase speak. So I'm not quite sure. I can't speak
for what kind of shortcuts, if any, because I can
only read what's in the news, because they talk about
going having cut some corners when they were manufacturing aircraft.
(09:34):
So that's really the issue. But I wouldn't say that
it's anything around when I talked about rolling the dice,
because those are what you call critical components which would
cause an aircraft to crash if they were not quality
issued appropertly.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
In terms of these events, how much of it is
technological challenges and how much of it is actually in
the hands of the pilot?
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Sully comes to mind for me. Is there a balance there?
Speaker 4 (10:00):
There is? Aircraft are very highly automated, So what's happening
these days is the role of the pilot is changing
from basic stick and rudder. If you go back fifty years,
when it was all about your capability to practically handle
the aircraft physically, it's changed from that into actually managing
the automation to achieve a safe outcome. So, yes, the
(10:21):
role of the pilot is changing. Automation has made it
very much safer. There are there are many types of
accidents that used to happen in the past that have
been significantly reduced. For example, flight into terrain. We have
terrain avoidance warning systems that's stopped a lot of terrain
related accidents where people are descended into terrain without knowing
that it was there in bad weather for example. Then
(10:43):
there's the what's called the traffic advisory systems that they
have on aircraft where it actually tells you when there's
another aircraft closing or within within a particular range. It
gives you a warning. And now the automated systems will
actually take over and take aways of action as needed.
So there are various technological advancements that have made huge
improvements in safety, and the pilots have to learn how
(11:05):
to manage that automation and also trust the automation and
make decisions which are based on the circumstance of the time. So, yes,
the role is changing, but it's a combination of both.
The automation is a huge help for pilots.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 6 (11:21):
A shock.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
When we board a plane, we all expect to get
to our destination in one piece, not end up in
a different country or even back where we started. But
what are your rights as a passenger when things do
go wrong? We're joined now by Consumer and z Ed's
Jessica Walker. Let's start with turbulence. Jessica, if you get
(11:54):
injured mid flight, what can you actually do about it?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
From a consumer point of view.
Speaker 6 (11:58):
The turbulence is a really interesting and this isn't something
that our members have complained to us about as yet,
so we don't have advice ready to go. But you know,
generally speaking, when something happens that is outside the airline's control,
so something like turbulence, you know, looking at what happened
with the recent extreme event, I believe it was the
Singapore Airlines or it's between Singapore and Auckland flight. The
(12:19):
airline seemed to handle that really well. So that'll be
your first part of call would be to go to
the airline, ask for us this sense and see what
they can do to help you out. We've been reading
that this is something that is expected to be increasing
in coming years, and so it's something that consumers do
need to be aware of when they're bucking flights. I
know from my experience in the office that people who
are already nervous travelers, it's giving them something else to
(12:40):
worry about. But it's really important that you have a
conversation with the airline if anything like that is to happen,
because that will be your best part of call.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
It's probably more common that your flight might end up
in the wrong destination hey, or actually back where it's
started in some cases.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
What can you do in this situation?
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Is that something you can take up with the airline
or get a refund, or what can you do.
Speaker 6 (13:02):
So again, that would be something that's clustered outside the
airlines control because you know they couldn't have foreseen that happening.
Or you know, if there's an extreme weather event which
results in turbulence, then they're doing what they can to
keep you safe. And so it's not, for example, like
a maintenance issue with an aeroplane, which means that either
your flight's delayed or canceled or you end up in
(13:22):
the wrong city. In those circumstances, you've got really clear rights.
And so in an example where there is an extreme
event like turbulence and the airline has done all it
can to protect you, but gets you to the safest
point of disembarking if you like, then the rules it
would be different.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
When we talk about things that are in the airlines control,
what kind of things are those.
Speaker 6 (13:44):
So that's things like maintenance. So if there's a problem
with the airplane, which means it can't take off, if
it's something like staff sickness, which happened and awful like
this time two years ago, we were calling it Airmageddon
in the office, and that was because so many flights
were being canceled because of staff shortages due to a
COVID wave.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
In New Zealand says it's cutting its flight schedule over
the next six months. There's the airline experiences the highest
level and crew sicknesses, and over a decade, around one
hundred thousand passengers will have your flights canceled or rescheduled,
which has raised concerns about the rights of consumers.
Speaker 6 (14:24):
So all those things, the things that theoretically are within
the control of the airline, things that are outside of
the control of the airline are things that wouldn't really
come as a surprise to you. So and the COVID
restrictions were in place and flights were grounded, we knew
what the rules were, and so it was no surprise
to any of us that certain flights weren't taking off.
Or if there is really extreme weather, you know, for example,
you look at the window and it's really thick fog,
(14:46):
then it's not going to be a surprise to you
that the airline decides to cancel or delay a flight
and that is for safety issues, but that is something
that they couldn't have foreseen. And so in those instances
we were classed as outside the airlines control. And so
you're right, are quite different.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
What are your rights when say your flight is canceled
due to something within the airline's control.
Speaker 6 (15:07):
So if it's a domestic flight and the cancelation is
for reasons within the airlines control, the first thing we
would always urge impacted passengers to do is to find
out what the reason for the cancelation or delay is.
Because we are hearing that this is getting better, that
communications from airlines is improving, and that's something we've pushed
them really hard on. But it used to be they
(15:28):
weren't always upfront about the reason for the cancelation or delay,
which put you in a really tricky situation as a
consumer to know what your rights were. But if the
airline is clear with you that So the example I
gave before, you know a maintenance issue which means that
the flight is unavailable the planes unavailable, then in that
instance you are entitled to reimbursement up to ten times
the cost of the ticket or the cost of the delay,
(15:50):
whichever is lower. So the cost of delay could be
things like a new flight, perhaps accommodation if there isn't
a flight available until the next day to meals so
you know, you shouldn't be in a worse off position
just because the flight didn't take off. See, you need
to keep hold of all of your receipts and then
submit those to the airline and put your claim in.
You'd find that both the airlines jets down in their
(16:12):
New Zealand would say that claims have to be reasonable.
So what that means is, you know, you couldn't go
and buck into a five star hotel that's five hundred
dollars a night and expect to get that reinburst. For
one reason, it's because there is a cap of ten
times the cost of the ticket, but also they would
say that that's not really fair. However, if the only
accommodation that is available is that price, and it does
(16:34):
come within the lower end of the limit. It's not
your fault, is it. So I think the thing to
bear in mind is that you shouldn't be out of
pocket because of a delay or cancelation that is within
the airlines control.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
And other things you can ask for as well.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
You mentioned meals, but also perhaps could you get a change.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Of clothes, toothbrush, toothpaste, things like that.
Speaker 6 (16:52):
Yeah, I mean, I guess it would depend on the situation,
because it is all about what's reasonable. So, you know,
so you're traveling and your somewhere long and expected to
be so it might be that you need, you know,
something to sleep in and a clean pair of bunders
for the next day in a tooth bridge, you know,
so that they would be reasonable things that you could
claim for. But you couldn't go out and buy a
whole new wardrobe. So it's just about being reasonable. Otherwise
(17:13):
the airline is likely to decline your request.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Is that the same with international flights as well, or
is it slightly different.
Speaker 6 (17:19):
International flights is different because it depends who you are
flying with, where you're flying to and from. Say, for example,
if you are, whether European airline or departing from a
European airline, you've got great protections. So it's definitely worth
heading to our website or doing a Google just to
see what your rights are if you are impacted by
an international delay or cancelation, because it really is quite
(17:43):
different for different jurisdictions. So the States have got different rules,
Australia has different rules. So the advice that I'm giving
now relates to domestic airlines, but most times you will
have some really pretty good protections. So it really pays
to not necessarily just take what the international airline is
telling you was gospel. You know from my own experience,
I've had to pretty hard in the past with British airways.
(18:04):
My in laws have done the same, and it works.
If you know you're right, you're in a really powerful position.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
I guess a lot of people may be quite surprised
on what they actually can claim.
Speaker 6 (18:14):
I think that's right, and that's one of the reasons
that we launched a campaign a couple of years ago.
We called it our Flight Rights Campaign, and that's because
we were getting no end of members and people that
were aware of us getting in touch to say they
were surprised that the flight was delayed or canceled and
all of a sudden, they're incurring all these fees. And
what we found was that people didn't understand their rights
because the airlines weren't being upfront and you know, worst
(18:36):
case scenario. We found that some people were actually being
misled and we didn't think that was fair, and that
could have been that they just weren't being told their rights.
But also there were some airlines telling people that they
could claim up to a set feel of I think
it was one hundred and fifty dollars a night for
accommodation and thirty dollars for a meal. But our argument
was that's not fair because that's not actually in the
Civil Aviation Act, that's not written down anywhere. And so
(18:58):
of course any reimbursement claims should be reasonable, but people
shouldn't be out of pocket. And so we think it's
really important that people do familiarize themselves with their rights.
And as they say, we are hearing anecdotally that the
moment there has been a florry of cancelations and it
does seem that our New Zealand and this instance have
been really good and upfront about the reason for the cancelation,
(19:19):
but it's definitely worth doing a quick Google head to
our campaign page just to find out what your rights
are so that you can make sure you're not being
shortchanged if you fail to take off.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Thanks for joining us, Jessica. That's it for this episode
of The Front Page. You can read more about today's
stories and extensive news coverage at enzed Herald dot co
dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Siles
with sound engineer Paddy Fox.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look
behind the headlines.
Yota.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is a summer special of
The Front Page, The Enzid Herald's daily news podcast. While
the Front Page is on summer break, we're taking a
look back at some of the biggest news stories and
top rated episodes from the podcast in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
New episodes will.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Return on January thirteenth. Traveling is often a stressful experience,
particularly over the Christmas break and summer holidays, when it
seems we're all rushing to get away. Those trips aren't
made easy when violent turbulence or technical errors have an impact.
(00:49):
In twenty twenty four, stories of extreme turbulence popped up
around the world, including one case in April when a
man on board an Air New Zealand flow from Balley
broke his leg, while in May, a violent Singapore Airlines
flight saw dozens hospitalized and one passenger die. That's all
(01:11):
on top of multiple stories locally of domestic and international
flights impacted by landing and technical issues. To get insight
on this, in July, we spoke to the chief executive
of Massy University's School of Aviation, a shock Potoval, about
whether we should be concerned and stay tuned for advice
(01:32):
on what you can do if things go wrong for
you this summer from Consumer and.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Z's Jessica Walker.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Just to start with a shock, I understand you've got
over twelve thousand hours of airlines jet flying experience.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Is that right?
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Oh? Yes, that would be correct, So.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
You know what you're talking about when it comes to planes.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
I would like to think so.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
So a shock.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
When we talk about turbulence, what do we referring to exactly?
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Well, turbulence has simply put the movement of air created
by atmospheric pressure. You know things called jet streams flow
around mountains, thunderstorms, et cetera. To give you an analogy,
it's like a car is traveling at six hundred kilometers
per hour. If it hits a bumpy stretch of road,
you'll be jolted in the air. It's basically horizontal or
vertical changes in wind speed, which is called wind shear,
(02:25):
that happens when the aircraft is traveling through the air,
and that causes the turbulence.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Why do you think extreme turbulence is becoming more of
an issue now? I've seen some suggestions that climate change
is to blame.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Well, all I can said, the stage is that is
a theory that is being put forward, and the number
of incidents of turbulence in recent times have been more
in quick succession. Put it that way. Whether this is
going to be an ongoing trend or not remains to
be seen. But there is a study that you or
(02:58):
may may or may not seen by the University of
Reading where they have talked about the link between climate
change and turbulence and they're forecasting that turbulence incidents are
going to increase in future. They've done a study from
nineteen seventy nine onwards, I believe, and they're forecasting that
(03:20):
the increase due to basically a climate change is what
they're saying, there would be more incidents of turbulence. But
at the moment, I would say this could be a
cluster because you have things like cluster of events happening
random events, and that then creates a perception that there
is an increase in that particular type of event.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
There's also been dozens of stories in recent weeks involving
planes departing New Zealand and then actually having to turn
around mid flight due to technical issues. What goes into
that decision making to turn a flight around.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Well, that entirely depends on the nature of the issue Chelsea,
because if it is an issue that would impact the
progress of the flight ongoing and it's not safe, then
the pilots would take a decision to come back. And
a lot of these decisions are also taken in conjunction
with the ground because most airlines have something called an
integrated Operations Control Center, and so they're constantly in touch
with the aircraft, so the nature of the problem is
(04:16):
communicated there, and then the pilots can make a decision
either to carry on or to divert to an alternate
air field, or to turn around and come back. So
it just depends on the circumstances.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
And I suppose we can have solace in the fact
that if a flight does have to turn around, it
really does, doesn't I saw it just yesterday an Auckland
to China flight had to turn back after seven hours
of flying. Could you imagine being up in the air
for fourteen hours and ending up in the same place
where you left off from. But I can imagine that
(04:48):
there would have been some serious conversations and it would
have actually had to seriously turn back.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
Hey, absolutely correct, that kind of a decision is not
made by one individual. They said, communicate the information that's
available the OPS control center, which has engineers, which has
operations people, you know, the whole range of the commercial
staff there, and then they make a considered decision. Something
like this are not made likely. Just now passengers are
not going to be very happy with that.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
The Virgin Australia flight from Queenstown to Melbourne has been
diverted to in Vericago.
Speaker 6 (05:22):
We have just received this video of the plane with
flames being seen coming from one of the engines.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
It started out as a seemingly normal landing in christ Church,
but soon flight JQ two to five from Auckland slid
off the runway.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
We've seen two problem flights at Invercargo Airport, of all places,
in the past month. One Melbourne bound flight from Queenstown
had to make an emergency landing after the engines seemed
to catch fire, while a domestic flight had to circle
the surrounding area for two hours after landing gear issues.
In your experience as a pilot, how common technical issues
(06:02):
like this.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
I have a background of mathematics, you know, the probability
of something happening is mathematically extremely low. There are about
roughly between ninety nine thousand to one hundred thousand flights
globally every day. With that volume of flights, if you
have a few odd incidents happening, I don't know if
they happen every day, percentage or probability of the currents
(06:24):
of such events is extremely rare. Now, the one about
the engine fire. You talked about. Engine fires are very rare,
so our aircraft fires, catastrophic failures are extremely rare. Just
a little bit of information for you if you're interested
that for an aircraft to be certified, the risk of
any catastrophic component failure, the components that are critical and
(06:46):
that would cause a catastrophic failure, the risk of that
has to be lower than one to ten to the
power of nine, one upon ten to the power of nine,
or ten to the power of minus nine. It has
to be lower than that. So basically what you're saying is,
if you've or ten dice and the chances of all
of them coming up with the same number, the probable
of a catastrophic failure has to be less than that.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Does the public have a right to panic in these situations?
Speaker 1 (07:09):
And what would your advice be.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Okay, so let's look at what can be done about it.
One of the things that I always advocate is keeping
the seat bills on at all times when seated, even
if you're sleeping. Keep the seat bilts on, perhaps loosely,
but keep it on. And you may see that most
salelines have an announcement saying it's recommended that seat bills
should be kept on. I'm not sure if any measures
(07:32):
are going to be taken now, with increasing number of
turbulence incident possibilities, whether they will mandate that, because for
takeoff and landing it's mandated you have to have your
seat bilts on in the air during crews. Whether you
have to keep it on or not as a mandatory requirement,
I'm not sure, but there is conversations happening around that.
But keeping it on at all times except maybe you're
taking a stretching your legs or going to the toilet
(07:53):
is most important. That's one that's really the key thing
that a passenger can do when on flight to remain safe.
It's no different from bearing a seat bill when you're
in the car driving.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Earlier this year we saw several incidents involving Boeing planes
are you concerned at all by what you're saying in
regards to Boeing.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Boeing has unfortunately had some issues around quality assurance, and
there's investigations going on in America. Federal Avition Administration has
started investigations. The Boeing chief executive has had to face
a Senate hearing a while ago about these issues. There
are thousands, hundreds of thousands of Boeing aircraft flying across
the world. So I don't see any immediate serious issue because,
(08:35):
once again the aviation industry, the moment anything is identified
that could be a significant risk, they've ground the entire fleet,
like you might have heard about the Boeing Max issues,
which happened when two AMX aircraft crashed some some years ago,
and then they grounded the whole Max fleet for about
two years before they could get it back up into
the air. So the safety structure scaffolding around airline operations
(08:59):
or aircraft operations is quite robust.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
When we talk about quality assurance issues within Boeing and
that's being investigated. Is that like taking your analogy with
the dice. Have they not rolled that dice ten times?
Speaker 4 (09:11):
I suppose not exactly, just that there were some vessel
blowers who talked about them taking some shortcuts, you know,
where the commercial imperative overcomes the safety impertative, so to
Pase speak. So I'm not quite sure. I can't speak
for what kind of shortcuts, if any, because I can
only read what's in the news, because they talk about
going having cut some corners when they were manufacturing aircraft.
(09:34):
So that's really the issue. But I wouldn't say that
it's anything around when I talked about rolling the dice,
because those are what you call critical components which would
cause an aircraft to crash if they were not quality
issued appropertly.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
In terms of these events, how much of it is
technological challenges and how much of it is actually in
the hands of the pilot?
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Sully comes to mind for me. Is there a balance there?
Speaker 4 (10:00):
There is? Aircraft are very highly automated, So what's happening
these days is the role of the pilot is changing
from basic stick and rudder. If you go back fifty years,
when it was all about your capability to practically handle
the aircraft physically, it's changed from that into actually managing
the automation to achieve a safe outcome. So, yes, the
(10:21):
role of the pilot is changing. Automation has made it
very much safer. There are there are many types of
accidents that used to happen in the past that have
been significantly reduced. For example, flight into terrain. We have
terrain avoidance warning systems that's stopped a lot of terrain
related accidents where people are descended into terrain without knowing
that it was there in bad weather for example. Then
(10:43):
there's the what's called the traffic advisory systems that they
have on aircraft where it actually tells you when there's
another aircraft closing or within within a particular range. It
gives you a warning. And now the automated systems will
actually take over and take aways of action as needed.
So there are various technological advancements that have made huge
improvements in safety, and the pilots have to learn how
(11:05):
to manage that automation and also trust the automation and
make decisions which are based on the circumstance of the time. So, yes,
the role is changing, but it's a combination of both.
The automation is a huge help for pilots.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 6 (11:21):
A shock.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
When we board a plane, we all expect to get
to our destination in one piece, not end up in
a different country or even back where we started. But
what are your rights as a passenger when things do
go wrong? We're joined now by Consumer and z Ed's
Jessica Walker. Let's start with turbulence. Jessica, if you get
(11:54):
injured mid flight, what can you actually do about it?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
From a consumer point of view.
Speaker 6 (11:58):
The turbulence is a really interesting and this isn't something
that our members have complained to us about as yet,
so we don't have advice ready to go. But you know,
generally speaking, when something happens that is outside the airline's control,
so something like turbulence, you know, looking at what happened
with the recent extreme event, I believe it was the
Singapore Airlines or it's between Singapore and Auckland flight. The
(12:19):
airline seemed to handle that really well. So that'll be
your first part of call would be to go to
the airline, ask for us this sense and see what
they can do to help you out. We've been reading
that this is something that is expected to be increasing
in coming years, and so it's something that consumers do
need to be aware of when they're bucking flights. I
know from my experience in the office that people who
are already nervous travelers, it's giving them something else to
(12:40):
worry about. But it's really important that you have a
conversation with the airline if anything like that is to happen,
because that will be your best part of call.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
It's probably more common that your flight might end up
in the wrong destination hey, or actually back where it's
started in some cases.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
What can you do in this situation?
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Is that something you can take up with the airline
or get a refund, or what can you do.
Speaker 6 (13:02):
So again, that would be something that's clustered outside the
airlines control because you know they couldn't have foreseen that happening.
Or you know, if there's an extreme weather event which
results in turbulence, then they're doing what they can to
keep you safe. And so it's not, for example, like
a maintenance issue with an aeroplane, which means that either
your flight's delayed or canceled or you end up in
(13:22):
the wrong city. In those circumstances, you've got really clear rights.
And so in an example where there is an extreme
event like turbulence and the airline has done all it
can to protect you, but gets you to the safest
point of disembarking if you like, then the rules it
would be different.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
When we talk about things that are in the airlines control,
what kind of things are those.
Speaker 6 (13:44):
So that's things like maintenance. So if there's a problem
with the airplane, which means it can't take off, if
it's something like staff sickness, which happened and awful like
this time two years ago, we were calling it Airmageddon
in the office, and that was because so many flights
were being canceled because of staff shortages due to a
COVID wave.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
In New Zealand says it's cutting its flight schedule over
the next six months. There's the airline experiences the highest
level and crew sicknesses, and over a decade, around one
hundred thousand passengers will have your flights canceled or rescheduled,
which has raised concerns about the rights of consumers.
Speaker 6 (14:24):
So all those things, the things that theoretically are within
the control of the airline, things that are outside of
the control of the airline are things that wouldn't really
come as a surprise to you. So and the COVID
restrictions were in place and flights were grounded, we knew
what the rules were, and so it was no surprise
to any of us that certain flights weren't taking off.
Or if there is really extreme weather, you know, for example,
you look at the window and it's really thick fog,
(14:46):
then it's not going to be a surprise to you
that the airline decides to cancel or delay a flight
and that is for safety issues, but that is something
that they couldn't have foreseen. And so in those instances
we were classed as outside the airlines control. And so
you're right, are quite different.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
What are your rights when say your flight is canceled
due to something within the airline's control.
Speaker 6 (15:07):
So if it's a domestic flight and the cancelation is
for reasons within the airlines control, the first thing we
would always urge impacted passengers to do is to find
out what the reason for the cancelation or delay is.
Because we are hearing that this is getting better, that
communications from airlines is improving, and that's something we've pushed
them really hard on. But it used to be they
(15:28):
weren't always upfront about the reason for the cancelation or delay,
which put you in a really tricky situation as a
consumer to know what your rights were. But if the
airline is clear with you that So the example I
gave before, you know a maintenance issue which means that
the flight is unavailable the planes unavailable, then in that
instance you are entitled to reimbursement up to ten times
the cost of the ticket or the cost of the delay,
(15:50):
whichever is lower. So the cost of delay could be
things like a new flight, perhaps accommodation if there isn't
a flight available until the next day to meals so
you know, you shouldn't be in a worse off position
just because the flight didn't take off. See, you need
to keep hold of all of your receipts and then
submit those to the airline and put your claim in.
You'd find that both the airlines jets down in their
(16:12):
New Zealand would say that claims have to be reasonable.
So what that means is, you know, you couldn't go
and buck into a five star hotel that's five hundred
dollars a night and expect to get that reinburst. For
one reason, it's because there is a cap of ten
times the cost of the ticket, but also they would
say that that's not really fair. However, if the only
accommodation that is available is that price, and it does
(16:34):
come within the lower end of the limit. It's not
your fault, is it. So I think the thing to
bear in mind is that you shouldn't be out of
pocket because of a delay or cancelation that is within
the airlines control.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
And other things you can ask for as well.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
You mentioned meals, but also perhaps could you get a change.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Of clothes, toothbrush, toothpaste, things like that.
Speaker 6 (16:52):
Yeah, I mean, I guess it would depend on the situation,
because it is all about what's reasonable. So, you know,
so you're traveling and your somewhere long and expected to
be so it might be that you need, you know,
something to sleep in and a clean pair of bunders
for the next day in a tooth bridge, you know,
so that they would be reasonable things that you could
claim for. But you couldn't go out and buy a
whole new wardrobe. So it's just about being reasonable. Otherwise
(17:13):
the airline is likely to decline your request.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Is that the same with international flights as well, or
is it slightly different.
Speaker 6 (17:19):
International flights is different because it depends who you are
flying with, where you're flying to and from. Say, for example,
if you are, whether European airline or departing from a
European airline, you've got great protections. So it's definitely worth
heading to our website or doing a Google just to
see what your rights are if you are impacted by
an international delay or cancelation, because it really is quite
(17:43):
different for different jurisdictions. So the States have got different rules,
Australia has different rules. So the advice that I'm giving
now relates to domestic airlines, but most times you will
have some really pretty good protections. So it really pays
to not necessarily just take what the international airline is
telling you was gospel. You know from my own experience,
I've had to pretty hard in the past with British airways.
(18:04):
My in laws have done the same, and it works.
If you know you're right, you're in a really powerful position.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
I guess a lot of people may be quite surprised
on what they actually can claim.
Speaker 6 (18:14):
I think that's right, and that's one of the reasons
that we launched a campaign a couple of years ago.
We called it our Flight Rights Campaign, and that's because
we were getting no end of members and people that
were aware of us getting in touch to say they
were surprised that the flight was delayed or canceled and
all of a sudden, they're incurring all these fees. And
what we found was that people didn't understand their rights
because the airlines weren't being upfront and you know, worst
(18:36):
case scenario. We found that some people were actually being
misled and we didn't think that was fair, and that
could have been that they just weren't being told their rights.
But also there were some airlines telling people that they
could claim up to a set feel of I think
it was one hundred and fifty dollars a night for
accommodation and thirty dollars for a meal. But our argument
was that's not fair because that's not actually in the
Civil Aviation Act, that's not written down anywhere. And so
(18:58):
of course any reimbursement claims should be reasonable, but people
shouldn't be out of pocket. And so we think it's
really important that people do familiarize themselves with their rights.
And as they say, we are hearing anecdotally that the
moment there has been a florry of cancelations and it
does seem that our New Zealand and this instance have
been really good and upfront about the reason for the cancelation,
(19:19):
but it's definitely worth doing a quick Google head to
our campaign page just to find out what your rights
are so that you can make sure you're not being
shortchanged if you fail to take off.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Thanks for joining us, Jessica. That's it for this episode
of The Front Page. You can read more about today's
stories and extensive news coverage at enzed Herald dot co
dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Siles
with sound engineer Paddy Fox.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look
behind the headlines.
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