December 15, 2024 • 30 mins
Law and order is always a hot topic of debate amongst politicians.
The coalition government was elected in part on the back of years of ram raids and violent robberies post-Covid.
The last 12 months has seen delivery on promises to bring back boot camps for young offenders, a crackdown on gangs, and the return of Three Strikes legislation.
Today on The Front Page, we’ll be revisiting the many conversations we’ve had about crime and the justice system in 2024, looking at how effective some of those policies are and what we could be doing better.
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You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Sound Engineer/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Ethan Sills
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Gilda.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is a compilation episode of
The Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the New
Zealand Herald. Law and order is always a hot topic
of debate amongst politicians. The Coalition government was elected in
part on the back of years of ram raids and
(00:27):
violent robberies post COVID. The last twelve months has seen
delivery on promises to bring back boot camps for young offenders,
a crackdown on gangs, and the return of three strikes legislation.
Today on the Front Page, we'll be revisiting the many
conversations we've had about crime and the justice system in
twenty twenty four, looking at how effective some of those
(00:51):
policies are and what we could be doing better. First, though,
to set the scene, let's revisit our conversation from July
with Herald's Scene reporter Derek Chang about what data tells
us about how much crime is happening and how unsafe
we feel.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
You know, there are lots of different measures for crime.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
There's no definitive crime data, and when you're looking at
different crime data sources, the best thing is to look
at the trends over time. So you know, the latest
Crime and Victim Survey, for example, it includes unreported crime.
You know, a lot of crime is not reported, roughly
three quarters of it, so it's considered one of.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
The better crime statistics.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
And if you look at that survey, crime has been
relatively steady since twenty eighteen, which was the first year
of the survey, So about seventy percent of us say
that we live crime free lives. But a different measure
there on feeling unsafe. There's been a big increase in
those of us who feel unsafe. That's gone from nine
to fifteen percent over the last six years, with the
(02:00):
biggest jump occurring between twenty twenty two and twenty twenty three.
And it's also for victims and non victims. So there's
a little weird thing going on there. But it's not
uncommon for feelings of safety to not necessarily reflect the
amount of crime that's going on, and there's lots of
factors that are potentially at play there.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
So the proportion of Asian.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
New Zealanders, for example, feeling unsafe doubled from eleven to
twenty two percent over that time, and the surveys suggested
that racism during COVID might have contributed to that what does.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
That mean for the government.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
While the steady rate of crime doesn't really fit with
Luxin's narrative that crime is out of control, he much
rather prefers to cherry pickers crime data to suit his message,
and that, to be fair, is not uncommon for politicians,
And those results also don't really sit with Luxen's lines
about h weis don't feel safe in that homes. He's
right that there's been an increase in feelings of not
(02:52):
being safe, but I don't think anyone would take fifteen
percent and just broadly say what key we don't feel
in their homes.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
It's interesting seeing the police data, hey, when it comes
out and those victim surveys, because you're right, when you
look at it on the outset, you can't really see
any obvious trends. But if you choose to zoom in
on specifics, as in, you know, a youth crime for instance,
over this period these ages, you can if you zoom
(03:21):
in and pinpoint some statistics, you can say that during
this specific time youth crime got more serious. But like
you say, if you zoom out, then it's a completely
different picture.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
Well, I think that people's experience of crime is often
a different picture entirely because if you are a victim
of crime, and that will affect you and then your
household and you know, your wider circle. So you know,
you're right that youth crime has been ticking up in
recent years, and that's particularly prevalent in things like robberies
(03:55):
and burglaries and theft, and you know that is in
the statistics as well well. But you know, even if
overall crime is quite steady, how people experiencing it and
how that goes through the grapevine the society is very different. So,
like I said before, it is not that uncommon for
people to feel less safe, even if the crime data
doesn't really show that we are actually less safe.
Speaker 5 (04:19):
Look, we're seeing a lot in the media and coming
up from police about, you know, a recent incidence of
sort of increasingly younger people doing increasingly severe offending. The
stats over the last few years actually show overall that
youth crime offending numbers are decreasing, but what we're seeing
is sort of worse offending.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
What challenge does it create for the government when people
are more afraid of crime than actually experiencing it.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
Well, I think you know a lot of politics, as
retail politics, you have to respond to what the perceptions are.
So you know, it suits the Prime Minister Christopher Luxeen
to say that crime is out of control and that
people don't feel safe in their homes because that resonates
with people, and then he can come in and say, well,
(05:11):
this is our law and order agender and we.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Know these things are popular.
Speaker 4 (05:15):
So when we say we're going to crack down on gangs, yes,
gang membership has gone up, largely because of the five
oh one departies from Australia, so we're going to do
something about that. Youth crime is up, so you know
we've got our boot camps, We've campaigned on them. It
doesn't matter what the evidence says. In particular, because we
see a problem, we all know there's a problem when
we're going to do something about it. Three strikes, longer sentences,
(05:38):
these are all things that resonate with the public. So
it's a common political strategy to respond to the perceptions
of what's going on out there, and this government's no different.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Really, young offenders have been in the target of this government,
with boot camps being reintroduced despite previous attempts by early
national governments not delivering shining results. In October, a rooftop
protest by thirteen offenders at a youth justice facility raised
(06:10):
the question once again on if we're handling these cases properly.
We spoke to youth worker and founder of Kickback Youth
Development Aaron Hendry to get insight into the lives of
our youngest offenders.
Speaker 6 (06:29):
When we have this conversation that we first center and
take a step back and understand who these children are
that are in these residential facilities. You know, these are
young people that they're honesty is they've experienced some of
the worst that New Zealand society has to offer. You know,
often they were victims first before they've gone on to
cause harm in the community. They've been physically harmed, mentally, emotionally,
(06:51):
they have been let down by us as a community.
Often they would have experienced poverty, homelessness. You know, some
will have disabilities and severe mental health needs, and we'll
have experience some really significant trauma. You know, the evidence
backs that up. And we look kind of globally around
the world, you know, where we see young people coming
into confidence for the law and then kind of being
funneled into these systems. These are the driving factors, the
(07:12):
reasons behind that offending in the first place, and so
it's really important to understand that. And then when we
see behavior like this, it's really easy to look at
a picture or see an image and think, oh, you know,
they're just acting out. But there's a reason why they
are up on that roof for in that situation, and
often it's coming from a space of the trauma and
pain and a young person or a child that's not
being hurt and doesn't feel like they're getting their most
(07:33):
basic needs met.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yeah, and I think that's what we have to remember
as well with these kind of situations. Hey, that these
kids society's most neglected. Can you tell me a little
bit more about these kids and what kind of lives
they may have led.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (07:46):
I mean when we look at the data and the
research around young people that end up in these sort
of facilities, you know, some of them have slept rough
since they were young. You know that home hasn't been safe,
and so they've ended up sleeping on our streets. Think
about how unsafe you must have to be or feel
as a child to think that sleeping outside, you know,
on busy Queen Street was a safer option for you.
(08:07):
In some cases, you know, they're coming from Farno who
are really struggling, you know, families that really love their
kids and yet are doing impossible things, trying to keep
a roof over the heads, working you know, multiple jobs
and just don't have the time and the resources they
need to really care for their young people well. And
you know, as a community we haven't supported them. Some
of these young people will have disabilities and will have
(08:28):
significant you know, mental health needs and be using substances
as a way to cope, and families may be struggling
to manage and support that without the resources and the
layers of community around them to best look after them
and care for them while trying to deal with this
you know crisis called poverty and housing and security that
many of our Farnam are dealing with. The Other thing
we know about young people that end up in these
(08:50):
facilities is that often the community was aware that they
needed help, they were aware that their families needed help,
and as a community we haven't had the resources to
actually come down support them care for them long before
they ever came into conflict with the law and ended
up in the justice system. There's a lot that can
be said, and there is a lot that is said
(09:11):
about our young people, But I think the thing that
we need to fundamentally focus on and remember is that
these children are here because of our failure as a
society and as a country. We have not valued the
lives of these young people well enough. We haven't cared
for them, we haven't ensured we build societies and communities
that can provide them with the resources they need, and
as a result, they have entered into these systems. I
(09:33):
think that's saying that we really need to keep front
of mind when we're having a conversation around young people
in the justice system.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Police Minister Mark Mitchell is one of the politicians responsible
for overseeing law and order in this country. He joined
us in May in the wake of the government announcing
a new task force designed to make life difficult for
gangs in this country. National has been eyeing up a
(10:07):
unit like this for years. Hey, and it's in reference
to the New South Wales's Strikeforce Raptor. First off, what
do you make of that name? Why didn't you call
us Strikeforce Raptor.
Speaker 7 (10:17):
Well, I'm sure that the ausies would excuse us of
punching their name if we could call it Strikeforce Raptor.
But look, that Task Force in Australia has been very effective.
They've done outstanding work in terms of disrupting and suppressing
the gangs over there, and I know that they have
enormous community support.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
And when you do get a.
Speaker 7 (10:35):
Fleir up of gang violence, the first thing communities are
asking for is Strikeforce Raptor to arrive. So look, I
think the intent of the Commissioner, and obviously responding to
our priorities as a government, is to make sure that
we start doing maximum damage and interrupting our organized criminal
groups and gangs in this country.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
And that'll entail targeting and harassing gang members. What would
that look like.
Speaker 7 (10:59):
Well, they will target them. I mean, our police forces
world class and it's professional. But they will be focused
and they will be applying as much pressure on the
games as they can. They'll be having a very significant
additional powers that we're giving them that are currently passing
through Parliament, and we've been very clear as the incoming
government what our expectation is that is that law abiding
citizens in this country will have their rights protected over
(11:21):
and above those that think they're above the law.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
So we're basically just making it really, really uncomfortable to
be a gang member in this country.
Speaker 7 (11:29):
Yeah, we want it to be so uncomfortable that they
actually want to leave and try and find a positive
way of rejoining society again.
Speaker 8 (11:37):
Mike Kennedy is a former detective from the New South
Wales Police Force. Doctor Kennedy says groups like Strengthforce Rector
ultimately turn the public against the police.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
People don't stop being members of groups just because they've
been arrested.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
They go into jail, so they come out, they get
more of.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
A reason that remain in the group they're in. Story
you've done, He's driven the problem underground, which is what
no one yes.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
In terms of Strikeforce Raptor over in Aussie they've been
called and I quote there's a bunch of thugs in
blue uniforms that use lawful harassment tactics. Is this a
concern here and how will our national gang unit be different?
Speaker 7 (12:16):
Well, I'd say it's probably the gangs that are describing
them like that. From what I understand, they are very
effective in Australia and I fully back our police service.
We've got a world class professional police service. That's got
deep capability and they're up to the job. And our
expectation is, as I have said as the incoming government,
is that there is enormous pressure put on gangs that
their life becomes miserable, that actually they don't want to
(12:39):
participate in gang lifestyle anymore.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
They don't want to be a.
Speaker 7 (12:42):
Perpetrating violent criminal acts, they don't want to be peddling
misery and drugs and methamphetamine, that they actually want to
leave the gang and rejoin society, especially those with families.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Being tough on crime isn't just a focus here in
New Zealand. Back in June, a new policy came into
effect in Australia that once again cracked down on five
oh one's criminals who had been born in New Zealand
but spent most of their lives in Australia. Founder of
Road to Redemption and former five oh one Mark Talleranoah
(13:19):
joined us at the time to discuss his experiences with
this system.
Speaker 9 (13:28):
The system it's sort of a blanket approach.
Speaker 10 (13:31):
I believe it when I was amended in twenty fifteen
that it was brought out to kind of get rid
of terrorists over in Australia because it came into fution
under Tony Abbott and they kind of had to come
up of law that's going to help get rid of
people who are not citizens through Australia.
Speaker 9 (13:50):
And obviously a lot of Keywies just go over there
bridging visas and are not citizens, so we kind of
fall on that kind of collateral. I guess we're the
ones who've been invested the most, because there's been just
over three thousand Kiwis have been deported back in.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
New Zealand, just thirty one hundred actually as of January
this year.
Speaker 8 (14:11):
Yet five oh ones are New Zealand born and criminals
deported from Australia. Under Scott Morrison's government. They were kicked
out at a rate of more than one per day.
One soundbern Easy came into power. Numbers almost halved after
Australia agreed to a common sense approach and mid mounting
pressure from then Prime Minister Just Sinder.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Our dude, you're a former five oh one, hey, yes, yeah,
And how was that experience for you?
Speaker 9 (14:42):
Well, for me, I had a lot easier than a
lot of men and women do when they do come
back and they have nothing and they have no money,
and they have no jobs, and they have no support network,
and they have no connection to New Zealand. I was
very fortunate that my wife was my girlfriend. Time came
over two weeks before and she kind of got housing,
had savings, had aka. But even though I had that
(15:03):
startup seven years ago, because I've been back for seven
years now.
Speaker 11 (15:06):
It was still I still found it.
Speaker 9 (15:09):
Hard to adjust to the sort of landscape of the
environment of New Zealand, Like how slow it was compared
to being in Australia for fourteen years and coming back
and just trying to adjust to the speed of New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Did you have any family here?
Speaker 10 (15:22):
No, I had no family.
Speaker 9 (15:24):
I'm originally from East Auckland, and I chose to not
go back to Auckland because I knew what was there
for me.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
I knew that a lot of people that I knew
would be back in.
Speaker 9 (15:33):
Those circles and I'll just I guess it'll be just
too tempting for me to fall back into old traps.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
So my goodfriend at the time sent me.
Speaker 9 (15:40):
A further and map of New Zealand and we decided
to relocate to crush It.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
You mentioned that you were aware that it would be
quite easy to fall back into old habits. How difficult
was it once you were back in New Zealand not
to do that.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
I guess that's the reason why we did move to Crosshach.
Speaker 12 (15:59):
Because I had no ties to no one, I knew,
no one, I had no family. It wasn't as easy
as to link up with people who were still involved
in that space. So for me it wasn't that challenging
because that's the reason why we moved down here. But
I still found myself in those circles because if you
come from a certain background, it's obviously easy to connect
(16:20):
and link up with your old networks and people that know,
mutual friends and stuff like that. So I still found
myself in those sort of circles, but it was easier
for me to kind of pull myself away.
Speaker 11 (16:31):
And not get caught up.
Speaker 9 (16:32):
And that's hence the reason why we didn't move back
to Auckland.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Yeah, am I able to ask you? Is it gang affiliations?
Speaker 11 (16:38):
Yes, yeah, just gang affiliations, but also yeah, just boys
that you knew from over in Australia, and we were
part of that lifestyle and it's just so easy to
fall into old traps and do old things.
Speaker 9 (16:51):
And that's why I gone to Auckland. And having that
as a place where everyone goes through it kind of
sets out our people up in failure because they're going
to a place where.
Speaker 12 (17:00):
All they know is what they know in Australia why
they got the ported for We.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Get sent here with very little.
Speaker 9 (17:08):
And you get a couple hundred bucks and you get
better than on the back and you get told to.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Do your best.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
While politicians are focused on gangs and ram raiders. Recent
surveys have shown that one in ten New Zealanders are
believed to have experienced some type of fraud. We caught
up with enzat Herald investigative reporter Matt Knippett about this
in September.
Speaker 13 (17:46):
The only thing thing about financial crime is often at
crime of consent, guns aren't being drawn and people handing
over their wallets or emptying their passes. These crimes are
committed by people who convinced them to hand it over,
usually for.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
An envali untrustful reason.
Speaker 13 (18:01):
You know, they say they'll invest in somewhere, would in
fact it's just going to pay off the other investors
that want to get out. It's upon this scheme, or
it's just being totally most appropriated. So that level of trust,
I mean, this is why they call convent convent, because
they're confidence met.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
I haven't yet met.
Speaker 13 (18:17):
At Fordster who wasn't charismatic. I mean, you've got to
be good to convince people hand over the hard and pass. Then,
of course that does complicate things because often people don't
want to acknowledge that and tricked and lost money. Certainly
they don't want anyone else to know that they've been
foolish or taken in. There's a certain amount of shame.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
Nationally, there'll be hundreds of cases a day being reported
to police, and we know that not all thoughts reported,
so the scale of it is truly massive.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
I never thought it never happened to me. I was
pretty upset. I didn't know which way to turn.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
That money saved up with my granddaughter and my son
and his wife.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
So how much money did you lose in this few
hours and time?
Speaker 3 (19:04):
And dearly?
Speaker 13 (19:05):
There are commercial consequences. You know, if your bank realizes
that you know, you've lost a million dollars of your
businesses money, they might want to take a closer look
at your finances to make sure you can replace. There's
lots of seven centers not to report the sort of crime,
which is the first big hurdle. The second book hurdle
we often come across is money that goes offshore, and
you know, we live in a globalized world. People can
(19:26):
set up bank accounts overseas. There are supposed to be
sort of anti money laundering checks in place to ensure
that valanci institutions know who are setting up accounts for
their institutions and where it's been transferred to. But once
money goes offshore, and it's extraordinarily difficult to track, lit
alone recover. Once people realize that's happened to them, often
(19:48):
they can't see any prospect of getting their money back.
So why would you go through, you know, all the pain,
that torment of a criminal investigation which you know, in
all likelihood probably won't even get to trial, and either
of it it's going to drag out for years. A
lot of people just want to cut their losses, and
the losses are indeed quite substantial and sort of at
a national level.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
When we talk about fraud in New Zealand, how many
millions of dollars are kiwis losing each year.
Speaker 13 (20:13):
It's sort of a very fungible term fraud. I mean,
if we sort of look at the sort of the
economic costs of crime might be a good way to
look at it. There were some studies that maybe it
was about ten billion a year. However, it's worth noting
that the vast majority of that, probably seven or eight billion,
is just text to avoidance people not paying the tax
they're required to, either just not paying it and you know,
(20:36):
when the bills come due or sort of massage in
their accounts to make a look as though they don't
need to pay as much. IOD does have a fairly
big investigations unit, and they unally do about they proscrit
about a billion dollars of that a year, so there
have been some researchers. That's the amount that's messed us
considerably more, and we break it further down. I know,
it's a lot in the news a moment sort of
(20:57):
ram raids and retail crime that industry lobby reckons. That's
about two and a half billion a year. So yes,
a very big number, but still you're looking at only
a third the amount of X that's going with thing
and then going way further down, you know, they're sort
of the scams and frauds are probably in the three
to four hundred million dollar range, but that number can
bounce around a lot. As I mentioned before, individual cases
(21:18):
can run to one hundred million, which can really skew
each year's figures. And finally, something that does get a
fair bit of coverage, but it's worth mentioning purely because
it's meniscule. Is a welfare fraud which you know, only
about two or three million dollars a year, if that
has prosecuted each year, it's a comparative pittance, and you know,
(21:39):
in some total, just a fraction of one of the
sort of ponding type schemes that might get uncovered in
a year.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Regardless of what type of crime you commit, most roads
in our justice system lead towards our prisons. Earlier this year,
a scathing report from our going chief Ombardsman Peter Bosher,
slammed our country's prison system as unproductive and unwilling to change.
In response, in April, I spoke to Deputy Commissioner of
(22:11):
Prison's New Bills to get his response to those comments
and get insight into the state of corrections.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
I respectfully disagree with that because having worked in Corrections
for a considerable amount of time. I know that there's
certain things that, yes, do take some time because you're
dealing with law, and changing law and regulations has a
process which we have to follow. But there are occasions
when it's in house policy that we can and do change,
(22:47):
you know, quite rapidly, where we possibly can. So look
at the mixed bag, But I don't agree that that
definition respectfully covers everything.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
That we do.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
He did say that Corrections has a culture issue. Would
you agree with that?
Speaker 3 (23:05):
No, I don't.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
I think, you know, if you look back at the
things that we have done over recent years, I think
we've got a culture that is getting healthier.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
All the time.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
You know, if you even if you look back over
the COVID years, you know what what we were able
to achieve back through then when we were running you know,
extremely restrictive environments. We wouldn't have been able to achieve
that safely had we had an unsafe or an unhealthy culture.
Do we need to get better in areas? I think absolutely.
We door, which our chief executive has has recently launched
(23:38):
back in early April, is a is a sign of
his intent to change our organizational structure in order to
you know, be less bureaucratic, where we can be more agile,
where we can be more connected with our external agencies
and partners, and and more connected you know, within within
our own department as well. So you know, that is
(24:00):
a reflecting I think of a culture that is listening,
learning all the time, but we are also dealing with
factors which are often outside of our control, such as
you know, we've now got a arising prison population.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
We don't dictate that.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
That's dictated through through other parts of the justice sector
of policing and courts and sentencing, etc. You know, we
have come through a very difficult time with staffing which
has severely impacted us to be able to carry out
our full range of activities in many.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Of our areas.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
But we're getting through that and we've got a we've
now got an increasing number of applications of staff wanted
to come and work with us, which is very very
pleasing to see.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
It was particularly critical of Auckland Prison, saying not much,
if anything, has changed since COVID. He used the phrase
like a people's storage unit unit and the words containment
and management. Is this fair?
Speaker 3 (24:58):
I think the reflection on all.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Look, let's not forget that Auckland Prison is our only
men's maximum.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
Security prison in the country, so.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Not all prisoners who are there are maximum I accept that.
And you know, for those people who have never been
to Auckland Prison who don't understand the layout, you've effectively
got about five different sections to the prison. You've got
some lower security, minimum security areas, a high security area,
and then the new maximum security build. The maximum security
(25:27):
side of the prison holds the most dangerous and often
difficult people that we manage in the entire prison system.
In order to do that, you've got to do that safely,
with the correct staffing numbers, and you've got to do
it in a way that understands all the risks that
you face every day. And risk is dynamic. It changes.
You know, what you face in the morning may not
(25:47):
be what you're facing the afternoon. It doesn't take an
awful lot for the situation on a unit to change rapidly.
You know, you move in a new gang member, you
move out a new gang member. You might have an
incident that somebody gets a bad phone call, etc. That
changes the dynamics of that unit significantly. So you know,
I do accept that the pace of change at Auckland
(26:09):
Prison in some areas has been slower than what many
would have preferred, and that's been indicated in the on
Bodsman's comments, But there is context to be applied to that.
I don't think it's through a resistance to change or
reluctance to change. I think it is through carefully considering
what we are dealing with and making sure that we
do it safely, because ultimately our staff deserve to be
(26:31):
safe as well as the prisoners and the public need
to be safe, which is our duty.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
A report from the Office of the Inspectorate, released just
yesterday shows for up to nine months up until July
last year, prisoners in three units were denied their minimum
entitlement to an hour out of their cell every day,
but instead every second day. For one hundred and seven men,
this regime lasted more than one hundred days, and for
(26:59):
twenty seven them more than two hundred days. Is this
good enough?
Speaker 6 (27:05):
No?
Speaker 1 (27:05):
And I don't think anybody would sit down here and
try and argue that that's okay. It's not okay. But again,
you know, for the exact same reasons that I've just
given you, context needs to be applied over there, because
you just cannot do things if you don't have the
requisite amount of staff. So what the jail was dealing
with at the time was what is the best that
they could do given the circumstances that they were dealing
(27:28):
within those three units. Bearing in mind the rest of
the jail was operating by and large, okay, but in
these three units where we are dealing, like I said,
with some of the most difficult and disruptive and dangerous prisoners,
you know, you have to be exceptionally cautious in what
you do.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
It is it is.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Something that you know, I don't think you'll find a
single member of staff who was happy with the arrangements
that needed to be put in place, but neither would
they be happy if we were asking them to unlock
short you know, we've only got a certain amount of
space within those units to a exercise and associate prisoners.
So you've got to do that with the right amount
of staff. It takes some of these prisoners. You have
(28:06):
three staff to move one prisoner. Some require four, sometimes five,
depending on the level of risk that they pose. So no,
it is not ideal, and nobody in this department is
sitting here going look that was okay, it's not okay.
Thankfully though, we are now seeing our FTU numbers are
awkling back to a very healthy state. Our visits are
now opening up again. I was talking to the site
(28:28):
this morning. The consultation with the unions and those discussions
are coming to an end and we believe that we
should be operating visits back as normal in those areas
now by the end of the month, which is great
and that's what everybody wants to see.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
In terms of being committed to change within corrections. The
next time, say the ombudsman walks through Auckland Prison and
he comes out the other end and he says, yes,
it has change. I can see that there is change,
or be I can't see anything happening here. Would you
stake your job on him walking out that prison saying
(29:06):
something's happening?
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Look, I think you.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Know, those those are questions I don't enter into because
I think it's you know, it doesn't get you anywhere.
My role is to make sure that sites that I'm
responsible for or supported and they can do their job
for the best of their ability.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Would you be confident that Bosher walks through and says,
change is happening.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Well, right now, change is happening in Aubland prison.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
He doesn't think so.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Well, I've just spent I've spent most of March there
covering for a colleague. You and I can tell you
now that you know the change is significant.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
Are we there yet? No, we're not. We're not out
of the woods. But change is happening.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
That's it for this compilation episode of The Front Page.
You can read more about the stories featured in this
episode and extensive news coverage at ends at Herald dot
co dot z. The Front Page is produced by Ethan
Sills and Richard Martin, who is also our sound engineer,
along with Paddy Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The
(30:05):
Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,
and tune in tomorrow for another compilation episode, taking a
look back at some of the year's biggest stories,
Gilda.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is a compilation episode of
The Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the New
Zealand Herald. Law and order is always a hot topic
of debate amongst politicians. The Coalition government was elected in
part on the back of years of ram raids and
(00:27):
violent robberies post COVID. The last twelve months has seen
delivery on promises to bring back boot camps for young offenders,
a crackdown on gangs, and the return of three strikes legislation.
Today on the Front Page, we'll be revisiting the many
conversations we've had about crime and the justice system in
twenty twenty four, looking at how effective some of those
(00:51):
policies are and what we could be doing better. First, though,
to set the scene, let's revisit our conversation from July
with Herald's Scene reporter Derek Chang about what data tells
us about how much crime is happening and how unsafe
we feel.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
You know, there are lots of different measures for crime.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
There's no definitive crime data, and when you're looking at
different crime data sources, the best thing is to look
at the trends over time. So you know, the latest
Crime and Victim Survey, for example, it includes unreported crime.
You know, a lot of crime is not reported, roughly
three quarters of it, so it's considered one of.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
The better crime statistics.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
And if you look at that survey, crime has been
relatively steady since twenty eighteen, which was the first year
of the survey, So about seventy percent of us say
that we live crime free lives. But a different measure
there on feeling unsafe. There's been a big increase in
those of us who feel unsafe. That's gone from nine
to fifteen percent over the last six years, with the
(02:00):
biggest jump occurring between twenty twenty two and twenty twenty three.
And it's also for victims and non victims. So there's
a little weird thing going on there. But it's not
uncommon for feelings of safety to not necessarily reflect the
amount of crime that's going on, and there's lots of
factors that are potentially at play there.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
So the proportion of Asian.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
New Zealanders, for example, feeling unsafe doubled from eleven to
twenty two percent over that time, and the surveys suggested
that racism during COVID might have contributed to that what does.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
That mean for the government.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
While the steady rate of crime doesn't really fit with
Luxin's narrative that crime is out of control, he much
rather prefers to cherry pickers crime data to suit his message,
and that, to be fair, is not uncommon for politicians,
And those results also don't really sit with Luxen's lines
about h weis don't feel safe in that homes. He's
right that there's been an increase in feelings of not
(02:52):
being safe, but I don't think anyone would take fifteen
percent and just broadly say what key we don't feel
in their homes.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
It's interesting seeing the police data, hey, when it comes
out and those victim surveys, because you're right, when you
look at it on the outset, you can't really see
any obvious trends. But if you choose to zoom in
on specifics, as in, you know, a youth crime for instance,
over this period these ages, you can if you zoom
(03:21):
in and pinpoint some statistics, you can say that during
this specific time youth crime got more serious. But like
you say, if you zoom out, then it's a completely
different picture.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
Well, I think that people's experience of crime is often
a different picture entirely because if you are a victim
of crime, and that will affect you and then your
household and you know, your wider circle. So you know,
you're right that youth crime has been ticking up in
recent years, and that's particularly prevalent in things like robberies
(03:55):
and burglaries and theft, and you know that is in
the statistics as well well. But you know, even if
overall crime is quite steady, how people experiencing it and
how that goes through the grapevine the society is very different. So,
like I said before, it is not that uncommon for
people to feel less safe, even if the crime data
doesn't really show that we are actually less safe.
Speaker 5 (04:19):
Look, we're seeing a lot in the media and coming
up from police about, you know, a recent incidence of
sort of increasingly younger people doing increasingly severe offending. The
stats over the last few years actually show overall that
youth crime offending numbers are decreasing, but what we're seeing
is sort of worse offending.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
What challenge does it create for the government when people
are more afraid of crime than actually experiencing it.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
Well, I think you know a lot of politics, as
retail politics, you have to respond to what the perceptions are.
So you know, it suits the Prime Minister Christopher Luxeen
to say that crime is out of control and that
people don't feel safe in their homes because that resonates
with people, and then he can come in and say, well,
(05:11):
this is our law and order agender and we.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Know these things are popular.
Speaker 4 (05:15):
So when we say we're going to crack down on gangs, yes,
gang membership has gone up, largely because of the five
oh one departies from Australia, so we're going to do
something about that. Youth crime is up, so you know
we've got our boot camps, We've campaigned on them. It
doesn't matter what the evidence says. In particular, because we
see a problem, we all know there's a problem when
we're going to do something about it. Three strikes, longer sentences,
(05:38):
these are all things that resonate with the public. So
it's a common political strategy to respond to the perceptions
of what's going on out there, and this government's no different.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Really, young offenders have been in the target of this government,
with boot camps being reintroduced despite previous attempts by early
national governments not delivering shining results. In October, a rooftop
protest by thirteen offenders at a youth justice facility raised
(06:10):
the question once again on if we're handling these cases properly.
We spoke to youth worker and founder of Kickback Youth
Development Aaron Hendry to get insight into the lives of
our youngest offenders.
Speaker 6 (06:29):
When we have this conversation that we first center and
take a step back and understand who these children are
that are in these residential facilities. You know, these are
young people that they're honesty is they've experienced some of
the worst that New Zealand society has to offer. You know,
often they were victims first before they've gone on to
cause harm in the community. They've been physically harmed, mentally, emotionally,
(06:51):
they have been let down by us as a community.
Often they would have experienced poverty, homelessness. You know, some
will have disabilities and severe mental health needs, and we'll
have experience some really significant trauma. You know, the evidence
backs that up. And we look kind of globally around
the world, you know, where we see young people coming
into confidence for the law and then kind of being
funneled into these systems. These are the driving factors, the
(07:12):
reasons behind that offending in the first place, and so
it's really important to understand that. And then when we
see behavior like this, it's really easy to look at
a picture or see an image and think, oh, you know,
they're just acting out. But there's a reason why they
are up on that roof for in that situation, and
often it's coming from a space of the trauma and
pain and a young person or a child that's not
being hurt and doesn't feel like they're getting their most
(07:33):
basic needs met.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yeah, and I think that's what we have to remember
as well with these kind of situations. Hey, that these
kids society's most neglected. Can you tell me a little
bit more about these kids and what kind of lives
they may have led.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (07:46):
I mean when we look at the data and the
research around young people that end up in these sort
of facilities, you know, some of them have slept rough
since they were young. You know that home hasn't been safe,
and so they've ended up sleeping on our streets. Think
about how unsafe you must have to be or feel
as a child to think that sleeping outside, you know,
on busy Queen Street was a safer option for you.
(08:07):
In some cases, you know, they're coming from Farno who
are really struggling, you know, families that really love their
kids and yet are doing impossible things, trying to keep
a roof over the heads, working you know, multiple jobs
and just don't have the time and the resources they
need to really care for their young people well. And
you know, as a community we haven't supported them. Some
of these young people will have disabilities and will have
(08:28):
significant you know, mental health needs and be using substances
as a way to cope, and families may be struggling
to manage and support that without the resources and the
layers of community around them to best look after them
and care for them while trying to deal with this
you know crisis called poverty and housing and security that
many of our Farnam are dealing with. The Other thing
we know about young people that end up in these
(08:50):
facilities is that often the community was aware that they
needed help, they were aware that their families needed help,
and as a community we haven't had the resources to
actually come down support them care for them long before
they ever came into conflict with the law and ended
up in the justice system. There's a lot that can
be said, and there is a lot that is said
(09:11):
about our young people, But I think the thing that
we need to fundamentally focus on and remember is that
these children are here because of our failure as a
society and as a country. We have not valued the
lives of these young people well enough. We haven't cared
for them, we haven't ensured we build societies and communities
that can provide them with the resources they need, and
as a result, they have entered into these systems. I
(09:33):
think that's saying that we really need to keep front
of mind when we're having a conversation around young people
in the justice system.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Police Minister Mark Mitchell is one of the politicians responsible
for overseeing law and order in this country. He joined
us in May in the wake of the government announcing
a new task force designed to make life difficult for
gangs in this country. National has been eyeing up a
(10:07):
unit like this for years. Hey, and it's in reference
to the New South Wales's Strikeforce Raptor. First off, what
do you make of that name? Why didn't you call
us Strikeforce Raptor.
Speaker 7 (10:17):
Well, I'm sure that the ausies would excuse us of
punching their name if we could call it Strikeforce Raptor.
But look, that Task Force in Australia has been very effective.
They've done outstanding work in terms of disrupting and suppressing
the gangs over there, and I know that they have
enormous community support.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
And when you do get a.
Speaker 7 (10:35):
Fleir up of gang violence, the first thing communities are
asking for is Strikeforce Raptor to arrive. So look, I
think the intent of the Commissioner, and obviously responding to
our priorities as a government, is to make sure that
we start doing maximum damage and interrupting our organized criminal
groups and gangs in this country.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
And that'll entail targeting and harassing gang members. What would
that look like.
Speaker 7 (10:59):
Well, they will target them. I mean, our police forces
world class and it's professional. But they will be focused
and they will be applying as much pressure on the
games as they can. They'll be having a very significant
additional powers that we're giving them that are currently passing
through Parliament, and we've been very clear as the incoming
government what our expectation is that is that law abiding
citizens in this country will have their rights protected over
(11:21):
and above those that think they're above the law.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
So we're basically just making it really, really uncomfortable to
be a gang member in this country.
Speaker 7 (11:29):
Yeah, we want it to be so uncomfortable that they
actually want to leave and try and find a positive
way of rejoining society again.
Speaker 8 (11:37):
Mike Kennedy is a former detective from the New South
Wales Police Force. Doctor Kennedy says groups like Strengthforce Rector
ultimately turn the public against the police.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
People don't stop being members of groups just because they've
been arrested.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
They go into jail, so they come out, they get
more of.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
A reason that remain in the group they're in. Story
you've done, He's driven the problem underground, which is what
no one yes.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
In terms of Strikeforce Raptor over in Aussie they've been
called and I quote there's a bunch of thugs in
blue uniforms that use lawful harassment tactics. Is this a
concern here and how will our national gang unit be different?
Speaker 7 (12:16):
Well, I'd say it's probably the gangs that are describing
them like that. From what I understand, they are very
effective in Australia and I fully back our police service.
We've got a world class professional police service. That's got
deep capability and they're up to the job. And our
expectation is, as I have said as the incoming government,
is that there is enormous pressure put on gangs that
their life becomes miserable, that actually they don't want to
(12:39):
participate in gang lifestyle anymore.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
They don't want to be a.
Speaker 7 (12:42):
Perpetrating violent criminal acts, they don't want to be peddling
misery and drugs and methamphetamine, that they actually want to
leave the gang and rejoin society, especially those with families.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Being tough on crime isn't just a focus here in
New Zealand. Back in June, a new policy came into
effect in Australia that once again cracked down on five
oh one's criminals who had been born in New Zealand
but spent most of their lives in Australia. Founder of
Road to Redemption and former five oh one Mark Talleranoah
(13:19):
joined us at the time to discuss his experiences with
this system.
Speaker 9 (13:28):
The system it's sort of a blanket approach.
Speaker 10 (13:31):
I believe it when I was amended in twenty fifteen
that it was brought out to kind of get rid
of terrorists over in Australia because it came into fution
under Tony Abbott and they kind of had to come
up of law that's going to help get rid of
people who are not citizens through Australia.
Speaker 9 (13:50):
And obviously a lot of Keywies just go over there
bridging visas and are not citizens, so we kind of
fall on that kind of collateral. I guess we're the
ones who've been invested the most, because there's been just
over three thousand Kiwis have been deported back in.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
New Zealand, just thirty one hundred actually as of January
this year.
Speaker 8 (14:11):
Yet five oh ones are New Zealand born and criminals
deported from Australia. Under Scott Morrison's government. They were kicked
out at a rate of more than one per day.
One soundbern Easy came into power. Numbers almost halved after
Australia agreed to a common sense approach and mid mounting
pressure from then Prime Minister Just Sinder.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Our dude, you're a former five oh one, hey, yes, yeah,
And how was that experience for you?
Speaker 9 (14:42):
Well, for me, I had a lot easier than a
lot of men and women do when they do come
back and they have nothing and they have no money,
and they have no jobs, and they have no support network,
and they have no connection to New Zealand. I was
very fortunate that my wife was my girlfriend. Time came
over two weeks before and she kind of got housing,
had savings, had aka. But even though I had that
(15:03):
startup seven years ago, because I've been back for seven
years now.
Speaker 11 (15:06):
It was still I still found it.
Speaker 9 (15:09):
Hard to adjust to the sort of landscape of the
environment of New Zealand, Like how slow it was compared
to being in Australia for fourteen years and coming back
and just trying to adjust to the speed of New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Did you have any family here?
Speaker 10 (15:22):
No, I had no family.
Speaker 9 (15:24):
I'm originally from East Auckland, and I chose to not
go back to Auckland because I knew what was there
for me.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
I knew that a lot of people that I knew
would be back in.
Speaker 9 (15:33):
Those circles and I'll just I guess it'll be just
too tempting for me to fall back into old traps.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
So my goodfriend at the time sent me.
Speaker 9 (15:40):
A further and map of New Zealand and we decided
to relocate to crush It.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
You mentioned that you were aware that it would be
quite easy to fall back into old habits. How difficult
was it once you were back in New Zealand not
to do that.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
I guess that's the reason why we did move to Crosshach.
Speaker 12 (15:59):
Because I had no ties to no one, I knew,
no one, I had no family. It wasn't as easy
as to link up with people who were still involved
in that space. So for me it wasn't that challenging
because that's the reason why we moved down here. But
I still found myself in those circles because if you
come from a certain background, it's obviously easy to connect
(16:20):
and link up with your old networks and people that know,
mutual friends and stuff like that. So I still found
myself in those sort of circles, but it was easier
for me to kind of pull myself away.
Speaker 11 (16:31):
And not get caught up.
Speaker 9 (16:32):
And that's hence the reason why we didn't move back
to Auckland.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Yeah, am I able to ask you? Is it gang affiliations?
Speaker 11 (16:38):
Yes, yeah, just gang affiliations, but also yeah, just boys
that you knew from over in Australia, and we were
part of that lifestyle and it's just so easy to
fall into old traps and do old things.
Speaker 9 (16:51):
And that's why I gone to Auckland. And having that
as a place where everyone goes through it kind of
sets out our people up in failure because they're going
to a place where.
Speaker 12 (17:00):
All they know is what they know in Australia why
they got the ported for We.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Get sent here with very little.
Speaker 9 (17:08):
And you get a couple hundred bucks and you get
better than on the back and you get told to.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Do your best.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
While politicians are focused on gangs and ram raiders. Recent
surveys have shown that one in ten New Zealanders are
believed to have experienced some type of fraud. We caught
up with enzat Herald investigative reporter Matt Knippett about this
in September.
Speaker 13 (17:46):
The only thing thing about financial crime is often at
crime of consent, guns aren't being drawn and people handing
over their wallets or emptying their passes. These crimes are
committed by people who convinced them to hand it over,
usually for.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
An envali untrustful reason.
Speaker 13 (18:01):
You know, they say they'll invest in somewhere, would in
fact it's just going to pay off the other investors
that want to get out. It's upon this scheme, or
it's just being totally most appropriated. So that level of trust,
I mean, this is why they call convent convent, because
they're confidence met.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
I haven't yet met.
Speaker 13 (18:17):
At Fordster who wasn't charismatic. I mean, you've got to
be good to convince people hand over the hard and pass. Then,
of course that does complicate things because often people don't
want to acknowledge that and tricked and lost money. Certainly
they don't want anyone else to know that they've been
foolish or taken in. There's a certain amount of shame.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
Nationally, there'll be hundreds of cases a day being reported
to police, and we know that not all thoughts reported,
so the scale of it is truly massive.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
I never thought it never happened to me. I was
pretty upset. I didn't know which way to turn.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
That money saved up with my granddaughter and my son
and his wife.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
So how much money did you lose in this few
hours and time?
Speaker 3 (19:04):
And dearly?
Speaker 13 (19:05):
There are commercial consequences. You know, if your bank realizes
that you know, you've lost a million dollars of your
businesses money, they might want to take a closer look
at your finances to make sure you can replace. There's
lots of seven centers not to report the sort of crime,
which is the first big hurdle. The second book hurdle
we often come across is money that goes offshore, and
you know, we live in a globalized world. People can
(19:26):
set up bank accounts overseas. There are supposed to be
sort of anti money laundering checks in place to ensure
that valanci institutions know who are setting up accounts for
their institutions and where it's been transferred to. But once
money goes offshore, and it's extraordinarily difficult to track, lit
alone recover. Once people realize that's happened to them, often
(19:48):
they can't see any prospect of getting their money back.
So why would you go through, you know, all the pain,
that torment of a criminal investigation which you know, in
all likelihood probably won't even get to trial, and either
of it it's going to drag out for years. A
lot of people just want to cut their losses, and
the losses are indeed quite substantial and sort of at
a national level.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
When we talk about fraud in New Zealand, how many
millions of dollars are kiwis losing each year.
Speaker 13 (20:13):
It's sort of a very fungible term fraud. I mean,
if we sort of look at the sort of the
economic costs of crime might be a good way to
look at it. There were some studies that maybe it
was about ten billion a year. However, it's worth noting
that the vast majority of that, probably seven or eight billion,
is just text to avoidance people not paying the tax
they're required to, either just not paying it and you know,
(20:36):
when the bills come due or sort of massage in
their accounts to make a look as though they don't
need to pay as much. IOD does have a fairly
big investigations unit, and they unally do about they proscrit
about a billion dollars of that a year, so there
have been some researchers. That's the amount that's messed us
considerably more, and we break it further down. I know,
it's a lot in the news a moment sort of
(20:57):
ram raids and retail crime that industry lobby reckons. That's
about two and a half billion a year. So yes,
a very big number, but still you're looking at only
a third the amount of X that's going with thing
and then going way further down, you know, they're sort
of the scams and frauds are probably in the three
to four hundred million dollar range, but that number can
bounce around a lot. As I mentioned before, individual cases
(21:18):
can run to one hundred million, which can really skew
each year's figures. And finally, something that does get a
fair bit of coverage, but it's worth mentioning purely because
it's meniscule. Is a welfare fraud which you know, only
about two or three million dollars a year, if that
has prosecuted each year, it's a comparative pittance, and you know,
(21:39):
in some total, just a fraction of one of the
sort of ponding type schemes that might get uncovered in
a year.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Regardless of what type of crime you commit, most roads
in our justice system lead towards our prisons. Earlier this year,
a scathing report from our going chief Ombardsman Peter Bosher,
slammed our country's prison system as unproductive and unwilling to change.
In response, in April, I spoke to Deputy Commissioner of
(22:11):
Prison's New Bills to get his response to those comments
and get insight into the state of corrections.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
I respectfully disagree with that because having worked in Corrections
for a considerable amount of time. I know that there's
certain things that, yes, do take some time because you're
dealing with law, and changing law and regulations has a
process which we have to follow. But there are occasions
when it's in house policy that we can and do change,
(22:47):
you know, quite rapidly, where we possibly can. So look
at the mixed bag, But I don't agree that that
definition respectfully covers everything.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
That we do.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
He did say that Corrections has a culture issue. Would
you agree with that?
Speaker 3 (23:05):
No, I don't.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
I think, you know, if you look back at the
things that we have done over recent years, I think
we've got a culture that is getting healthier.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
All the time.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
You know, if you even if you look back over
the COVID years, you know what what we were able
to achieve back through then when we were running you know,
extremely restrictive environments. We wouldn't have been able to achieve
that safely had we had an unsafe or an unhealthy culture.
Do we need to get better in areas? I think absolutely.
We door, which our chief executive has has recently launched
(23:38):
back in early April, is a is a sign of
his intent to change our organizational structure in order to
you know, be less bureaucratic, where we can be more agile,
where we can be more connected with our external agencies
and partners, and and more connected you know, within within
our own department as well. So you know, that is
(24:00):
a reflecting I think of a culture that is listening,
learning all the time, but we are also dealing with
factors which are often outside of our control, such as
you know, we've now got a arising prison population.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
We don't dictate that.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
That's dictated through through other parts of the justice sector
of policing and courts and sentencing, etc. You know, we
have come through a very difficult time with staffing which
has severely impacted us to be able to carry out
our full range of activities in many.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Of our areas.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
But we're getting through that and we've got a we've
now got an increasing number of applications of staff wanted
to come and work with us, which is very very
pleasing to see.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
It was particularly critical of Auckland Prison, saying not much,
if anything, has changed since COVID. He used the phrase
like a people's storage unit unit and the words containment
and management. Is this fair?
Speaker 3 (24:58):
I think the reflection on all.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Look, let's not forget that Auckland Prison is our only
men's maximum.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
Security prison in the country, so.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Not all prisoners who are there are maximum I accept that.
And you know, for those people who have never been
to Auckland Prison who don't understand the layout, you've effectively
got about five different sections to the prison. You've got
some lower security, minimum security areas, a high security area,
and then the new maximum security build. The maximum security
(25:27):
side of the prison holds the most dangerous and often
difficult people that we manage in the entire prison system.
In order to do that, you've got to do that safely,
with the correct staffing numbers, and you've got to do
it in a way that understands all the risks that
you face every day. And risk is dynamic. It changes.
You know, what you face in the morning may not
(25:47):
be what you're facing the afternoon. It doesn't take an
awful lot for the situation on a unit to change rapidly.
You know, you move in a new gang member, you
move out a new gang member. You might have an
incident that somebody gets a bad phone call, etc. That
changes the dynamics of that unit significantly. So you know,
I do accept that the pace of change at Auckland
(26:09):
Prison in some areas has been slower than what many
would have preferred, and that's been indicated in the on
Bodsman's comments, But there is context to be applied to that.
I don't think it's through a resistance to change or
reluctance to change. I think it is through carefully considering
what we are dealing with and making sure that we
do it safely, because ultimately our staff deserve to be
(26:31):
safe as well as the prisoners and the public need
to be safe, which is our duty.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
A report from the Office of the Inspectorate, released just
yesterday shows for up to nine months up until July
last year, prisoners in three units were denied their minimum
entitlement to an hour out of their cell every day,
but instead every second day. For one hundred and seven men,
this regime lasted more than one hundred days, and for
(26:59):
twenty seven them more than two hundred days. Is this
good enough?
Speaker 6 (27:05):
No?
Speaker 1 (27:05):
And I don't think anybody would sit down here and
try and argue that that's okay. It's not okay. But again,
you know, for the exact same reasons that I've just
given you, context needs to be applied over there, because
you just cannot do things if you don't have the
requisite amount of staff. So what the jail was dealing
with at the time was what is the best that
they could do given the circumstances that they were dealing
(27:28):
within those three units. Bearing in mind the rest of
the jail was operating by and large, okay, but in
these three units where we are dealing, like I said,
with some of the most difficult and disruptive and dangerous prisoners,
you know, you have to be exceptionally cautious in what
you do.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
It is it is.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Something that you know, I don't think you'll find a
single member of staff who was happy with the arrangements
that needed to be put in place, but neither would
they be happy if we were asking them to unlock
short you know, we've only got a certain amount of
space within those units to a exercise and associate prisoners.
So you've got to do that with the right amount
of staff. It takes some of these prisoners. You have
(28:06):
three staff to move one prisoner. Some require four, sometimes five,
depending on the level of risk that they pose. So no,
it is not ideal, and nobody in this department is
sitting here going look that was okay, it's not okay.
Thankfully though, we are now seeing our FTU numbers are
awkling back to a very healthy state. Our visits are
now opening up again. I was talking to the site
(28:28):
this morning. The consultation with the unions and those discussions
are coming to an end and we believe that we
should be operating visits back as normal in those areas
now by the end of the month, which is great
and that's what everybody wants to see.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
In terms of being committed to change within corrections. The
next time, say the ombudsman walks through Auckland Prison and
he comes out the other end and he says, yes,
it has change. I can see that there is change,
or be I can't see anything happening here. Would you
stake your job on him walking out that prison saying
(29:06):
something's happening?
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Look, I think you.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Know, those those are questions I don't enter into because
I think it's you know, it doesn't get you anywhere.
My role is to make sure that sites that I'm
responsible for or supported and they can do their job
for the best of their ability.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Would you be confident that Bosher walks through and says,
change is happening.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Well, right now, change is happening in Aubland prison.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
He doesn't think so.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Well, I've just spent I've spent most of March there
covering for a colleague. You and I can tell you
now that you know the change is significant.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
Are we there yet? No, we're not. We're not out
of the woods. But change is happening.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
That's it for this compilation episode of The Front Page.
You can read more about the stories featured in this
episode and extensive news coverage at ends at Herald dot
co dot z. The Front Page is produced by Ethan
Sills and Richard Martin, who is also our sound engineer,
along with Paddy Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The
(30:05):
Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,
and tune in tomorrow for another compilation episode, taking a
look back at some of the year's biggest stories,
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