January 6, 2025 • 20 mins
While The Front Page is on summer break, we’re taking a look back at some of the biggest news stories and top-rated episodes from the podcast in 2024.
For over 50 years, the secretive Christian community of Gloriavale has fascinated New Zealanders.
While the community has long been discussed by former members who have left Gloriavale behind, in the last few years, multiple official investigations and Employment Court proceedings have shone more light on what's happening behind the scenes.
In March, a new TVNZ documentary, Escaping Utopia, premiered, looking back at the community’s chequered history and its recent problems.
We spoke with co-director Justin Pemberton – who explained his fresh look at historic concerns.
New episodes return January 13th.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Audio Engineers: Paddy Fox, Richard Martin
Executive Producer: Ethan Sills
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Yoda.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is a summer special of
The Front Page, the Enzid Herald's daily news podcast. While
the Front Page is on summer break, we're taking a
look back at some of the biggest news stories and
top rated episodes from the podcast in twenty twenty four.
(00:26):
New episodes will return on January thirteenth. For over fifty.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Years, the secretive Christian community of Gloria Vale has fascinated
New Zealanders. While the community has long been discussed by
former members who have left Gloria Vale behind, in the
last few years, multiple official investigations and employment court proceedings
have shone more light on what's happening behind the scenes.
(00:56):
In March, a new TV and Z documentary Escaping Utopia premiered,
looking back at the community's check in history and its
recent problems. We spoke with co director Justin Pemberton, who
explained his fresh look at historic concerns. Justin, can you
(01:16):
start by telling us how exactly did you come up
with the name of the series.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Well, it relates really to the idea that people born
inside Glory Vale are told that they are living in
the utopian vision on Earth, that this is the place
God wants them, This is the place.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
That they will be saved.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
If they ever leave here, they'll be damning themselves to
a term oblamnation. So what was really interesting for me
was this idea that when you're born into this community,
you don't even realize that you're living in a very strange,
very alternative.
Speaker 5 (01:53):
Way of life.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
And as they grow up they have to start different
people put things together and start questioning and start looking
at the outside world and realize just how strange the
way they love is. And then that journey that comes
for some people that the idea that I don't like
it here, I'm not living here. I want to be
out there, So they have to, you know, find a
(02:14):
way to escape essentially. And what's so sort of traumatic
is that when you leave Glorabille, they have this rule
that you basically had cut off. You're not allowed to
have any contact evering in with your family. So you
feel born there. This is everybody you know, this is
your entire world. Every single person you know in the
world is going to be cut off from you. So
(02:37):
I guess, yeah, So that escaping utopia concept is putting
it all together and realizing that that this is not
what you've been told, and that you are going to
sacrifice everything to leave.
Speaker 6 (02:50):
What ye's newspaper to start the fire. It was the
only inside into the outside.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Rule or something that caught my eye, or just rip
it out.
Speaker 7 (03:06):
Once they figured out that the girls were doing that,
they put somebody on checking the newspaper.
Speaker 6 (03:11):
And they'd literally cut out anything that they didn't want
us to see.
Speaker 7 (03:17):
Can you run me through some of the recent legal
woes that have been faced by Gloria Bell and that
get covered in your series.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
The court case that was playing out while we were filming,
which we follow was the employment case that a group
of women who are leaders who have left took against
the crown.
Speaker 5 (03:35):
And the immunity.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
They were arguing and have successfully as you find out
as the serious continues. They argued that they were employees,
they weren't volunteers.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Some of them claim they were slaves.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Essentially, they were told what to do, they were made
to do a particular kind of work, they weren't allowed
to choose or have any other option, and.
Speaker 5 (03:59):
Then wed, which is all part of the trap.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
You know, the idea that you don't own anything, that
you don't have any money, you don't have anything, you
don't have any any means of leaving, You don't have
anything to leave with, which is one of the ways
that you get trapped.
Speaker 5 (04:15):
So the court case that we follow.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Through the series is the journey of the women who
are taking Glorobale and the crown to coord What's particularly
interesting for me was the actually was the ability that
the court case there was the ability to hear from
the women on the inside who are who do claim
that they are happy, that they do want this world,
that this is their choice. Actually, interestingly, they don't always
(04:40):
claim they are happy. Most of them on the standards
say that they had struggled a lot, but they eventually
came to accept, with the guidance of the leaders, that
this was where they needed to be and this is
what God wanted for them, and that they were sacrificing
happiness and their individuality and their own dreams to serve God.
(05:04):
So that's the court case that we find of courses,
but there are a lot of court cases going on,
and a lot of them revolve around sexual abuse as well,
and we cover that and other ways in the series,
and we talk to people about their experiences, but we
didn't actually follow those court cases, and then just as
we were wrapping.
Speaker 5 (05:22):
Up filming, the new leader.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Who took over from Hopeful Christian was charged with some
the sexual abuse charges as well.
Speaker 7 (05:31):
I think what we all found fascinating about that particular
employment case, right was speaking listening to those twenty odd
women who actually came out in support of Gloria Vale.
And it's not often that we hear from them, I guess,
and it's incredible to see that in the series. I
was five years old when I gave my heart to
(05:52):
the Lord.
Speaker 6 (05:53):
I then chose to live a life there was to
deny myself and give my life for God in this church. Downtrodden, subdued, repressed, powerless, oppressed,
grain washed. These words are not at all what I
get treated like and either have felt as a woman
living in Gloria Belle.
Speaker 7 (06:15):
What was the motivation behind creating this documentary?
Speaker 5 (06:19):
Now?
Speaker 7 (06:19):
Was it because of those court cases? Or is it
something that you've been working on for a week while? So?
Speaker 5 (06:25):
I think was we Hopeful Christian died?
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Who was the founder of Brought About?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
We founded it in the early seventies mine sixty nine.
Depending on what day people choose, is the actual beginning
of it. He died in twenty eighteen, and at that
point me and Natalie, who was the producer and the
code director of the series, were finishing up one off
docudrama on the Center Point Holt and it just really
(06:53):
sort of struck us that what's going to happen now?
You know, like in Center Point, Burt Cotta didn't die,
he ended up going to prison, and the place eventually imploded.
Gloravale's leader held it together for over fifty years and
then died. He had left a succession plan, So that
was twenty eighteen, So thinking about it, they didn't.
Speaker 5 (07:11):
Get funded until I think twenty twenty two.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
By the time we actually were getting into production nearly
mid twenty twenty two, and at that point there had
been quite a few court cases and you could get
a sense that the place was imploding. It's very much
a live story. It isn't something that has resolved. It's
not clear what's going to happen.
Speaker 5 (07:32):
But also we looked through you looked of all the
material that have been done.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
I mean, you feel like it's been a lot made
about Gloravale, but nothing really seemed to trace the beginning
of the community. You know, the origins of it right
through to where it ends out. And for me, that's
the fascinating thing is to track that journey. In some ways,
they did have some utopian ideas at the beginning, you know,
were there were people get seduced by an ideology and
(07:58):
hopeful Christian was talking about sharing communities, a compassionate way
of life, you know, rejecting individualism and the commercialized world
that was starting to appear in the early seventies, and
a lot of these people were happies and travelers and
people were wanting an alternative way of life. That's so
interesting to see that beginning. And you know, they were
(08:19):
doing things like they were doing finding old cars in
the community and doing them up and making them run
them and gifting them to people, you know, in the
community who didn't have things, and there was something quite
generous and appealing, I think. But as the group evolved,
this sort of charismatic leader becomes very cult like, very controlling,
(08:41):
and starts indulging himself and creating rules that you know,
really are just to cement his authority, his power and
his control over everybody, and there blows astray. What's something
that glory about to me. I think it was also
the fact that they cut themselves off from the world
at that time in the early seventies, and they attract
(09:02):
the frozen in that kind of time and the rest
of us, the rest of the world has moved on,
and they're so out of step with contemporary thinking.
Speaker 5 (09:12):
And that's whether that's about.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Gender roles, sexual abuse, sexual harassment, physical punishment, even food,
you know, even their diet.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
You know, there's very much.
Speaker 5 (09:21):
Back in that early seventies kind of period.
Speaker 7 (09:36):
Gloria Olle has obviously been a point of fascination and
speculation for some decades now amongst New Zealanders. I think
it's an interesting point you make as well, that this
is a New Zealand's dirty secret. People don't really like
talking about glory of Owe, maybe in a sense of
people on the outside thinking, well, how did everyone let
(09:57):
this continue and go on and snowball into what it
is today?
Speaker 5 (10:01):
Yeah, I think you're right.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
I think it turns into a bit of a early
secret around the time that hopeful Christian goes to prison
in the early nineties for sexual abuse and doesn't serve
his full time somehow, which we've not been able to
find any real satisfactory explanation for why his sentence was
so dramatically reduced from five years to eighteen months and
(10:26):
then is released back into the community where he was
the abuser and where he is in charge. It's extraordinary.
I mean, you can't quite believe this happened. And you know,
the authorities, the media, the public. I mean, all it
plays out and it's not kind of challenged or stopped.
Speaker 5 (10:43):
You know.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
I think there were probation offices that were visiting, but
he befriended them. He's charismatic, right, so he would invite
them to lunch and that put on a show and
everyone goes, oh, well, there's nothing to see here. And actually,
what we now know is he wasn't the only offender.
It wasn't just he was teaching this offending, and it
had become endemic and generational, you know, where young boys
(11:07):
were abused and then grew up to become the abusers.
Speaker 8 (11:10):
I had sexually abusive things happened to me in times past.
To protect my children from that sort of thing happening
to them, the best and safest way to protect them
would be to leave.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
It's really quite surprising that this was able to just
be left like this. Part of it, of course, was
that he moved them way out into the most remote
parts of the West Coast where you know, there's no
neighbors that are within any kind of walking distance, there's
no cell phone coverage. They are cut off from the media,
(11:51):
so they are put off, but also sort of out
of mind, out of sight.
Speaker 5 (11:56):
So it's taken a long time for the.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Dirty secret, the under barrier of Gloria Belle to really
come out.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
And it is the bravery and the courage of the
people who have left. They're inspiring.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
You know, That's the big thing that for me, it's
not a tragic story ultimately because the people some of
these people and the people in the series, and the
people who tell their stories, they are inspiring and I
think you will feel inspired live.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (12:20):
One of those people is Pilgrim Christian. He's actually the
son of the Glory of our founder. It opens with
driving to the commune late at night and we'll see
him going into the property distributing anti cult leaflets. I mean,
that must take an incredible amount of bravery for him
to do that, especially growing up the way he did.
(12:41):
Were you surprised that you were just able to drive
on to the property. I guess a lot of New
Zealanders might think that it's just high gates and barking
dogs and things like that.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Yeah, I mean it is brave, and he is brave,
and he is and now he is conflicted as well.
At different times He's found different ways about how the
best to interact. He still has family living in there,
and family that he wants to have a good relationship with,
particularly his children. His ex wife is still I think
actually she might still be his wife that's separated, she's
(13:13):
still there and ultimately I know that he has hoped
for reconciliation and to have the whole family together would
be a dream. But on the outside, but on the
other part of that Christiania, in terms of being able
to just drive her, I mean, there's an intimidating place.
I don't think it's not a place that I would
(13:33):
feel comfortable to driving up. It's down a long road
where there is nothing else at the end of this road,
but this community.
Speaker 5 (13:39):
You'll see it on Google.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Maps, you know, as a road, but it is at
some point it does turn into their road.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
I believe they have taken control of that road. So
me and.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Natalie, co director and producer of it. We did go
to Glory about ourselves. We drove to drive during the day.
We drove in to go and talk to them and
talk to them about what we're doing and talking about
what kind of involvement, if any, they might be comfortable
playing in it. And we had a tour and ad
a look around. We met Howard, the current leader, and
(14:13):
it does feel I don't know, you know, it's hard
to separate, you know, because it's a place that has
become almost mythical in the New Zealand store now and
we've all seen it, we've seen what it looks like.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
But then when you're there, it did feel a little.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Bit like, you know, going somewhere for me that felt
repressive and you know, a.
Speaker 5 (14:32):
Place that's under some sort of thought police.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
It felt scary. But you know, he was Howard was
very free man. He showed us around and you know,
we saw some young girls waking in the kitchen and
saw the extent of just how big the commercialized sort
of the nature of it. You know, like the kitchen
is huge, you know, and there's big vats. People were
making butter and cheese, and there was some mints being made.
(14:56):
I think it was probably for the evening meal. It
was quite remarkable to walk around and experience it. He
then they then did decline to directly be involved in
the series, not sped away. He said he had to
talk to the men and he would get back to us.
Speaker 7 (15:11):
And you mentioned how people actually escape from the communit
and there's a bit of a clandestine operation going on there.
Were you surprised at how kind of organized that aspect
of it was, hopefully?
Speaker 1 (15:24):
I mean that's the other thing that is so interesting
is that there is an underground network. We do not
at the door of our leaders trust, but you know
they're in Timuru, but they have a network.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
So there are people nearby.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Marcus who you need in episode one and we'll see
him again through the series.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
He is one of the nearest farmers and.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
He is known as a sort of a farm that
you can that you can escape to and go up
his drive and knock on his law and ask for help.
Speaker 8 (15:50):
I don't think I ever started to think I needed
to help someone leave.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
I just wanted to work with the ones that were
asking for help, and if they come knocking on my
or I need to help them. So if you're going
to leave, you need this group of people, an underground
network to catch you and then patch up any wounds
you've got trying to escape. But people are very scared,
(16:15):
you know, because once people know that you're thinking of leaving,
and once the secret's out, you get targeted.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
And there's stories of people going through.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Such incredible psychological abuse and also having privileges removed, and
you know, the family being turned against them. You know,
they certainly don't want people to leave. So even that
aspect of her it feels you know, people try to
escape East Germany, you know, it has that sense of
it and bone drops at night and stuff like that.
(16:43):
That community is in a very transitional phase right now,
so who knows where it's going and what's going to happen.
There are lots of court cases that potentially are going
to challenge them of their wealth.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
There is the current leader.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Who's currently got charges against them as well, sexual abuse charges.
Speaker 5 (17:00):
So there is.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Another leader that hopeful Christian already has he I mean,
he had a succession plan, so not only did he
have Howard, he's also got already pre chosen the one
that comes after Howard, And I think that's the other
really interesting thing for me. I mean, to a point,
you could argue that everybody there is a victim who's
been indoctrinated from hopeful Christian and they're still trying to
carry out hopeful Christian stream. Some people obviously botmore in
(17:25):
a privileged position and a position of power, and other
people are completely lacking any kind of agency. But it
is unclear where it's going to go, what's going to happen.
So it's a particularly interesting time to look at the
community and go right back to the beginning and see
where it started, where and off the rails, what actually
is the lived experience of people in there and people
(17:47):
who have left, and to start to consider where it
goes from here.
Speaker 7 (17:52):
And justin while making this series, what did you learn
about Glory Vale that shocked you the most?
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Know, we kind of had an idea about all the
abuse and the sexual abuse and all of that, so
hearing the details and knowing more about it is shocking,
and it certainly is as bad as you feared. I
actually think one of the things that has surprised me
is the character that the people and I don't know
(18:20):
how to quite describe it, but it's the resolve the
compassionate nature. And this is even the people that have left,
you know, like one of the women that's in the series,
her name's Pearl, and she was in an earlier series
that Cloribelle actually made, that they helped author, that was
played years ago.
Speaker 5 (18:36):
She didn't ever agree to be in that series. She
was just told she had to be in it.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
And she's had a horrible, horrible time, you know, through
the air. She's now left, she's only been out a
couple of years, but she still has so much compassion
for the people in there because she you know, and
I think that's one of the surprising things.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
You know, she still says there are incredible, loving people.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Even though she had been beaten up on, you know,
psychologically and abuse, she can find compassion for the people
that are there and for the community. And I think
there has been a surprising thing and actually the inspirational thing,
you know, particularly in a world where there is so
much out here, you know, conflict and tribal political that's
(19:17):
what's going on, and perhaps more of a lack of compassion.
So I've found the people that we talked to anyway
to be quite inspiring.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
And that was a surprise.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
I didn't really expect to be quite so moved by
their nature.
Speaker 7 (19:32):
Thanks for joining us, Justin, and of course anyone listening
can watch Escaping Utopia on TVNZED one or on TV
and Z Plus. Thanks again. That said, for this episode
of the Front Page. You can read more about today's
stories and extensive news coverage at NZ Herald dot co
(19:55):
dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sells
with sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to
the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,
and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
Yoda.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is a summer special of
The Front Page, the Enzid Herald's daily news podcast. While
the Front Page is on summer break, we're taking a
look back at some of the biggest news stories and
top rated episodes from the podcast in twenty twenty four.
(00:26):
New episodes will return on January thirteenth. For over fifty.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Years, the secretive Christian community of Gloria Vale has fascinated
New Zealanders. While the community has long been discussed by
former members who have left Gloria Vale behind, in the
last few years, multiple official investigations and employment court proceedings
have shone more light on what's happening behind the scenes.
(00:56):
In March, a new TV and Z documentary Escaping Utopia premiered,
looking back at the community's check in history and its
recent problems. We spoke with co director Justin Pemberton, who
explained his fresh look at historic concerns. Justin, can you
(01:16):
start by telling us how exactly did you come up
with the name of the series.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Well, it relates really to the idea that people born
inside Glory Vale are told that they are living in
the utopian vision on Earth, that this is the place
God wants them, This is the place.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
That they will be saved.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
If they ever leave here, they'll be damning themselves to
a term oblamnation. So what was really interesting for me
was this idea that when you're born into this community,
you don't even realize that you're living in a very strange,
very alternative.
Speaker 5 (01:53):
Way of life.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
And as they grow up they have to start different
people put things together and start questioning and start looking
at the outside world and realize just how strange the
way they love is. And then that journey that comes
for some people that the idea that I don't like
it here, I'm not living here. I want to be
out there, So they have to, you know, find a
(02:14):
way to escape essentially. And what's so sort of traumatic
is that when you leave Glorabille, they have this rule
that you basically had cut off. You're not allowed to
have any contact evering in with your family. So you
feel born there. This is everybody you know, this is
your entire world. Every single person you know in the
world is going to be cut off from you. So
(02:37):
I guess, yeah, So that escaping utopia concept is putting
it all together and realizing that that this is not
what you've been told, and that you are going to
sacrifice everything to leave.
Speaker 6 (02:50):
What ye's newspaper to start the fire. It was the
only inside into the outside.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Rule or something that caught my eye, or just rip
it out.
Speaker 7 (03:06):
Once they figured out that the girls were doing that,
they put somebody on checking the newspaper.
Speaker 6 (03:11):
And they'd literally cut out anything that they didn't want
us to see.
Speaker 7 (03:17):
Can you run me through some of the recent legal
woes that have been faced by Gloria Bell and that
get covered in your series.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
The court case that was playing out while we were filming,
which we follow was the employment case that a group
of women who are leaders who have left took against
the crown.
Speaker 5 (03:35):
And the immunity.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
They were arguing and have successfully as you find out
as the serious continues. They argued that they were employees,
they weren't volunteers.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Some of them claim they were slaves.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Essentially, they were told what to do, they were made
to do a particular kind of work, they weren't allowed
to choose or have any other option, and.
Speaker 5 (03:59):
Then wed, which is all part of the trap.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
You know, the idea that you don't own anything, that
you don't have any money, you don't have anything, you
don't have any any means of leaving, You don't have
anything to leave with, which is one of the ways
that you get trapped.
Speaker 5 (04:15):
So the court case that we follow.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Through the series is the journey of the women who
are taking Glorobale and the crown to coord What's particularly
interesting for me was the actually was the ability that
the court case there was the ability to hear from
the women on the inside who are who do claim
that they are happy, that they do want this world,
that this is their choice. Actually, interestingly, they don't always
(04:40):
claim they are happy. Most of them on the standards
say that they had struggled a lot, but they eventually
came to accept, with the guidance of the leaders, that
this was where they needed to be and this is
what God wanted for them, and that they were sacrificing
happiness and their individuality and their own dreams to serve God.
(05:04):
So that's the court case that we find of courses,
but there are a lot of court cases going on,
and a lot of them revolve around sexual abuse as well,
and we cover that and other ways in the series,
and we talk to people about their experiences, but we
didn't actually follow those court cases, and then just as
we were wrapping.
Speaker 5 (05:22):
Up filming, the new leader.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Who took over from Hopeful Christian was charged with some
the sexual abuse charges as well.
Speaker 7 (05:31):
I think what we all found fascinating about that particular
employment case, right was speaking listening to those twenty odd
women who actually came out in support of Gloria Vale.
And it's not often that we hear from them, I guess,
and it's incredible to see that in the series. I
was five years old when I gave my heart to
(05:52):
the Lord.
Speaker 6 (05:53):
I then chose to live a life there was to
deny myself and give my life for God in this church. Downtrodden, subdued, repressed, powerless, oppressed,
grain washed. These words are not at all what I
get treated like and either have felt as a woman
living in Gloria Belle.
Speaker 7 (06:15):
What was the motivation behind creating this documentary?
Speaker 5 (06:19):
Now?
Speaker 7 (06:19):
Was it because of those court cases? Or is it
something that you've been working on for a week while? So?
Speaker 5 (06:25):
I think was we Hopeful Christian died?
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Who was the founder of Brought About?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
We founded it in the early seventies mine sixty nine.
Depending on what day people choose, is the actual beginning
of it. He died in twenty eighteen, and at that
point me and Natalie, who was the producer and the
code director of the series, were finishing up one off
docudrama on the Center Point Holt and it just really
(06:53):
sort of struck us that what's going to happen now?
You know, like in Center Point, Burt Cotta didn't die,
he ended up going to prison, and the place eventually imploded.
Gloravale's leader held it together for over fifty years and
then died. He had left a succession plan, So that
was twenty eighteen, So thinking about it, they didn't.
Speaker 5 (07:11):
Get funded until I think twenty twenty two.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
By the time we actually were getting into production nearly
mid twenty twenty two, and at that point there had
been quite a few court cases and you could get
a sense that the place was imploding. It's very much
a live story. It isn't something that has resolved. It's
not clear what's going to happen.
Speaker 5 (07:32):
But also we looked through you looked of all the
material that have been done.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
I mean, you feel like it's been a lot made
about Gloravale, but nothing really seemed to trace the beginning
of the community. You know, the origins of it right
through to where it ends out. And for me, that's
the fascinating thing is to track that journey. In some ways,
they did have some utopian ideas at the beginning, you know,
were there were people get seduced by an ideology and
(07:58):
hopeful Christian was talking about sharing communities, a compassionate way
of life, you know, rejecting individualism and the commercialized world
that was starting to appear in the early seventies, and
a lot of these people were happies and travelers and
people were wanting an alternative way of life. That's so
interesting to see that beginning. And you know, they were
(08:19):
doing things like they were doing finding old cars in
the community and doing them up and making them run
them and gifting them to people, you know, in the
community who didn't have things, and there was something quite
generous and appealing, I think. But as the group evolved,
this sort of charismatic leader becomes very cult like, very controlling,
(08:41):
and starts indulging himself and creating rules that you know,
really are just to cement his authority, his power and
his control over everybody, and there blows astray. What's something
that glory about to me. I think it was also
the fact that they cut themselves off from the world
at that time in the early seventies, and they attract
(09:02):
the frozen in that kind of time and the rest
of us, the rest of the world has moved on,
and they're so out of step with contemporary thinking.
Speaker 5 (09:12):
And that's whether that's about.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Gender roles, sexual abuse, sexual harassment, physical punishment, even food,
you know, even their diet.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
You know, there's very much.
Speaker 5 (09:21):
Back in that early seventies kind of period.
Speaker 7 (09:36):
Gloria Olle has obviously been a point of fascination and
speculation for some decades now amongst New Zealanders. I think
it's an interesting point you make as well, that this
is a New Zealand's dirty secret. People don't really like
talking about glory of Owe, maybe in a sense of
people on the outside thinking, well, how did everyone let
(09:57):
this continue and go on and snowball into what it
is today?
Speaker 5 (10:01):
Yeah, I think you're right.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
I think it turns into a bit of a early
secret around the time that hopeful Christian goes to prison
in the early nineties for sexual abuse and doesn't serve
his full time somehow, which we've not been able to
find any real satisfactory explanation for why his sentence was
so dramatically reduced from five years to eighteen months and
(10:26):
then is released back into the community where he was
the abuser and where he is in charge. It's extraordinary.
I mean, you can't quite believe this happened. And you know,
the authorities, the media, the public. I mean, all it
plays out and it's not kind of challenged or stopped.
Speaker 5 (10:43):
You know.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
I think there were probation offices that were visiting, but
he befriended them. He's charismatic, right, so he would invite
them to lunch and that put on a show and
everyone goes, oh, well, there's nothing to see here. And actually,
what we now know is he wasn't the only offender.
It wasn't just he was teaching this offending, and it
had become endemic and generational, you know, where young boys
(11:07):
were abused and then grew up to become the abusers.
Speaker 8 (11:10):
I had sexually abusive things happened to me in times past.
To protect my children from that sort of thing happening
to them, the best and safest way to protect them
would be to leave.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
It's really quite surprising that this was able to just
be left like this. Part of it, of course, was
that he moved them way out into the most remote
parts of the West Coast where you know, there's no
neighbors that are within any kind of walking distance, there's
no cell phone coverage. They are cut off from the media,
(11:51):
so they are put off, but also sort of out
of mind, out of sight.
Speaker 5 (11:56):
So it's taken a long time for the.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Dirty secret, the under barrier of Gloria Belle to really
come out.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
And it is the bravery and the courage of the
people who have left. They're inspiring.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
You know, That's the big thing that for me, it's
not a tragic story ultimately because the people some of
these people and the people in the series, and the
people who tell their stories, they are inspiring and I
think you will feel inspired live.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (12:20):
One of those people is Pilgrim Christian. He's actually the
son of the Glory of our founder. It opens with
driving to the commune late at night and we'll see
him going into the property distributing anti cult leaflets. I mean,
that must take an incredible amount of bravery for him
to do that, especially growing up the way he did.
(12:41):
Were you surprised that you were just able to drive
on to the property. I guess a lot of New
Zealanders might think that it's just high gates and barking
dogs and things like that.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Yeah, I mean it is brave, and he is brave,
and he is and now he is conflicted as well.
At different times He's found different ways about how the
best to interact. He still has family living in there,
and family that he wants to have a good relationship with,
particularly his children. His ex wife is still I think
actually she might still be his wife that's separated, she's
(13:13):
still there and ultimately I know that he has hoped
for reconciliation and to have the whole family together would
be a dream. But on the outside, but on the
other part of that Christiania, in terms of being able
to just drive her, I mean, there's an intimidating place.
I don't think it's not a place that I would
(13:33):
feel comfortable to driving up. It's down a long road
where there is nothing else at the end of this road,
but this community.
Speaker 5 (13:39):
You'll see it on Google.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Maps, you know, as a road, but it is at
some point it does turn into their road.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
I believe they have taken control of that road. So
me and.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Natalie, co director and producer of it. We did go
to Glory about ourselves. We drove to drive during the day.
We drove in to go and talk to them and
talk to them about what we're doing and talking about
what kind of involvement, if any, they might be comfortable
playing in it. And we had a tour and ad
a look around. We met Howard, the current leader, and
(14:13):
it does feel I don't know, you know, it's hard
to separate, you know, because it's a place that has
become almost mythical in the New Zealand store now and
we've all seen it, we've seen what it looks like.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
But then when you're there, it did feel a little.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Bit like, you know, going somewhere for me that felt
repressive and you know, a.
Speaker 5 (14:32):
Place that's under some sort of thought police.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
It felt scary. But you know, he was Howard was
very free man. He showed us around and you know,
we saw some young girls waking in the kitchen and
saw the extent of just how big the commercialized sort
of the nature of it. You know, like the kitchen
is huge, you know, and there's big vats. People were
making butter and cheese, and there was some mints being made.
(14:56):
I think it was probably for the evening meal. It
was quite remarkable to walk around and experience it. He
then they then did decline to directly be involved in
the series, not sped away. He said he had to
talk to the men and he would get back to us.
Speaker 7 (15:11):
And you mentioned how people actually escape from the communit
and there's a bit of a clandestine operation going on there.
Were you surprised at how kind of organized that aspect
of it was, hopefully?
Speaker 1 (15:24):
I mean that's the other thing that is so interesting
is that there is an underground network. We do not
at the door of our leaders trust, but you know
they're in Timuru, but they have a network.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
So there are people nearby.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Marcus who you need in episode one and we'll see
him again through the series.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
He is one of the nearest farmers and.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
He is known as a sort of a farm that
you can that you can escape to and go up
his drive and knock on his law and ask for help.
Speaker 8 (15:50):
I don't think I ever started to think I needed
to help someone leave.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
I just wanted to work with the ones that were
asking for help, and if they come knocking on my
or I need to help them. So if you're going
to leave, you need this group of people, an underground
network to catch you and then patch up any wounds
you've got trying to escape. But people are very scared,
(16:15):
you know, because once people know that you're thinking of leaving,
and once the secret's out, you get targeted.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
And there's stories of people going through.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Such incredible psychological abuse and also having privileges removed, and
you know, the family being turned against them. You know,
they certainly don't want people to leave. So even that
aspect of her it feels you know, people try to
escape East Germany, you know, it has that sense of
it and bone drops at night and stuff like that.
(16:43):
That community is in a very transitional phase right now,
so who knows where it's going and what's going to happen.
There are lots of court cases that potentially are going
to challenge them of their wealth.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
There is the current leader.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Who's currently got charges against them as well, sexual abuse charges.
Speaker 5 (17:00):
So there is.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Another leader that hopeful Christian already has he I mean,
he had a succession plan, so not only did he
have Howard, he's also got already pre chosen the one
that comes after Howard, And I think that's the other
really interesting thing for me. I mean, to a point,
you could argue that everybody there is a victim who's
been indoctrinated from hopeful Christian and they're still trying to
carry out hopeful Christian stream. Some people obviously botmore in
(17:25):
a privileged position and a position of power, and other
people are completely lacking any kind of agency. But it
is unclear where it's going to go, what's going to happen.
So it's a particularly interesting time to look at the
community and go right back to the beginning and see
where it started, where and off the rails, what actually
is the lived experience of people in there and people
(17:47):
who have left, and to start to consider where it
goes from here.
Speaker 7 (17:52):
And justin while making this series, what did you learn
about Glory Vale that shocked you the most?
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Know, we kind of had an idea about all the
abuse and the sexual abuse and all of that, so
hearing the details and knowing more about it is shocking,
and it certainly is as bad as you feared. I
actually think one of the things that has surprised me
is the character that the people and I don't know
(18:20):
how to quite describe it, but it's the resolve the
compassionate nature. And this is even the people that have left,
you know, like one of the women that's in the series,
her name's Pearl, and she was in an earlier series
that Cloribelle actually made, that they helped author, that was
played years ago.
Speaker 5 (18:36):
She didn't ever agree to be in that series. She
was just told she had to be in it.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
And she's had a horrible, horrible time, you know, through
the air. She's now left, she's only been out a
couple of years, but she still has so much compassion
for the people in there because she you know, and
I think that's one of the surprising things.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
You know, she still says there are incredible, loving people.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Even though she had been beaten up on, you know,
psychologically and abuse, she can find compassion for the people
that are there and for the community. And I think
there has been a surprising thing and actually the inspirational thing,
you know, particularly in a world where there is so
much out here, you know, conflict and tribal political that's
(19:17):
what's going on, and perhaps more of a lack of compassion.
So I've found the people that we talked to anyway
to be quite inspiring.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
And that was a surprise.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
I didn't really expect to be quite so moved by
their nature.
Speaker 7 (19:32):
Thanks for joining us, Justin, and of course anyone listening
can watch Escaping Utopia on TVNZED one or on TV
and Z Plus. Thanks again. That said, for this episode
of the Front Page. You can read more about today's
stories and extensive news coverage at NZ Herald dot co
(19:55):
dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sells
with sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to
the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,
and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
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