December 10, 2024 • 19 mins
Communities around the country are waiting with bated breath for news about major infrastructure projects – ones that are set to cost a lot of money.
The government’s expected to announce the future of Interislander’s Cook Strait ferries this week – after the $3 billion mega ferry contract was canned last year due to ‘significant cost blowouts’.
Meanwhile, a report has revealed a ‘lack of confidence’ in a French contractor’s forecasts for the $5.5 billion City Rail Link in Auckland – the company has execs flying out this month to address concerns.
There’s apparently a 50% likelihood the November 2025 completion date will be met.
Later on The Front Page, Transporting New Zealand’s Policy and Advocacy Lead Billy Clemens is with us to discuss why the industry is on tenterhooks over the upcoming decision around the Cook Strait ferries.
But first, Public Transport Users Association chairperson Niall Robertson is with us to discuss the City Rail Link.
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You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Sound Engineer/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Ethan Sills
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Kiyota.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Communities around
the country are waiting with baited breath for news about
major infrastructure projects, ones that are set to cost a
lot of money. The Government's expected to announce the future
(00:28):
of inter Islander's Cook Straight ferries this week, after the
three billion dollar mega ferry contract was canned last year
due to significant cost blowouts. Meanwhile, a reporter has revealed
a lack of confidence in a French contractor's forecasts for
the five point five billion dollar city rail Link in Auckland.
(00:51):
The company has execs flying out this month to address
those concerns. There's apparently a fifty percent likelihood the November
twenty twenty five completion date will be met later on
the Front Page. Transporting New Zealand's policy and advocacy lead
Billy Clemmens is with us to discuss why the industry
(01:11):
is on tenter hooks over the upcoming decision around the
Cook Straight ferries. But First Public Transport Users Association chairperson
Neil Robertson is with us to discuss the City rail link.
Neil what have we heard about the state of Auckland's
(01:34):
City rail Link.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
The City rail Link is always a little bit of
a worry because it's always there's always some concerns about
budget overruns and the time it takes to actually get
the thing finished. You know, when will it be actually
finished and will be finished on time? And I think
Auckland is a really keen to get this thing up
and running and get to use it and also get
(01:56):
to use the rest of the railway system without all
the disruptions and things that go with that. I think
there's a lot of conjecture at the moment as to
whether it's going to be a kind of over budget.
But Shawn sween you always warned us that once the
whole deal was done and built, it was a lot
of the other little infrastructure that goes into the tunnel
that it can actually cause problems, which is what happened
in the Crossrail problem project in London, where the project
(02:21):
was finished on time, on budget, but all the extra
sit signaling and wiring and whatever else that they required
in there actually took it way off budget and way
over time. So there is some anxiety about that at
the moment.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I think, yeah, well, a press release from CRL just
a few days ago said critical rail network upgrades being
delivered before CRL opens in twenty twenty six. So it
does sound like it's still convinced of this twenty twenty
six completion date. Is that a pipe dream?
Speaker 4 (02:52):
Though?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
At this point?
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Do you think, Well, they actually can't tell you for
sure because they have us think that. I think it's
a call it a P fifty or something, which means
that it's fifty percent chance that it will be open
actually on time on that time, And I think that's
about as much as they can give you at the moment.
It could run a little bit over that, but it
might actually might actually make it. Yeah, why has.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
It taken so long for this one project to be built?
Like nearly a decade under construction for three point five
kilometers seems a bit ridiculous, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
It is an awful long time for a short There's
a couple of things too. That one is the lack
of a skill in New Zealand. We don't have a
pipeline of these sort of projects going through the New
Zealand system, and so we actually have to import a
lot of expertise and we have to sort of innovate
a little bit with various other people. So there's a
lot of people who are sort of learning to get
to work together. But the other thing was COVID actually
(03:44):
did actually take quite a bit out of this project
and caused lots of delays. COVID actually was quite disruptive. Otherwise,
it's actually come along quite smoothly. I've actually walked through
it myself and seen it, and it is a good
I have done a good job of it. It's a
great tunnel.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Because of the City rail Link, Auckland's rail network will
be closed for ninety six days in twenty twenty five,
starting this month, across the entire summer period. Does that
feel like a bit much?
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Yeah? It does, and it feels like it's been going
on forever. The narrative is that the Aukland rail system
is going to be rebuilt because it hasn't been touched
for many, many years. It's actually not altogether true, because
the entire system has got new sleeper's, new rail, new ballast,
new signals. What is really happening in reality is that
(04:36):
the trains that they have for the Auproand rail system
actually require a higher standard of track than New Zealand
has had in the past, and so what Kyrail have
had to do is to increase the standard of the
track to be able to take the trains that we
use in Auckland without causing too much damage to the
railway lines. If the line is not properly drained and
(04:59):
kept even and a level in all places, and the
railheads ground down with a grinder, they will have a
problem called rolling contact fatigue. And I don't know if
you remember, but back in about twenty twenty one, I
think it was the system actually found that out and
that's why they had to replace virtually all the track
in Auckland, or not all of it, but a lot
of track in Auckland. Because you get rolling contact fatigue
(05:22):
on your track, you have to replace the line. So
they're actually that's what they're doing, is they're rebuilding the
standard of Auckland so that we'll guard against rolling contact fatigue.
Another solution would have been to actually have had trains,
perhaps like the Wellington system, which actually don't need this
high level of standard, and then we'd have less of
the disruption. The disruption has actually sort of been compounded
(05:46):
because it's you know, they learned about the rolling contact fatigue.
Latterly they've replaced all the tracks, so we had a disruption.
Then now they're going to have to go back and
do it all again properly, so that it's actually is
their of mitigation against that problem, far more than any
any other city in any other part of the world
that has had to put up with. But hopefully if
they do do it all, and they do do it
(06:06):
properly and they keep the maintenance up, Auckland will have
a first class railway.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
And presumably it's going to be quite hot over the
summer period as well, when we know what happens when
the tracks get hot.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
If they do this maintenance properly, there will be less
problems with heat buckling, and so that should actually mitigate
a lot of that as well. One of the things
that we found in Auckland is it that you know,
there seem to be problems when there was unpredicted problems,
things like points failures because they got some shonky equipment. Also,
(06:40):
the wind blows a little bit too much and then
we get a shortening out of some of the wires
and things, and these are the sort of things that
they really have to guard against and they've really got
to put more time and effort into actually getting up
and running properly. And so you know, again, all I
can say really is hopefully they will, because they haven't
to date, but hopefully they will, and hopefully all these
(07:00):
things will be mitigated. But it's an awful lot to
ask of the Aukland people. My concern always is how
this will affect patronage on public transport, because public transport
users obviously want to have good quality public transport and
don't want to be forced back into using cars. And
(07:21):
one of the things that people don't realize actually thirty
percent of our population actually rely on public support. That's
the young people, the elderly, disabled people and people on
low incomes, and there are a lot of people who
actually don't like to drive as well. So without a
good public transport system, you're actually forcing people into a
car dependent kind of a transport system. And that's not
(07:43):
what we want. We want to have good public transport
and it should be made available and usable as much
as possible. And these these disruptions are executively the antithesis
of that.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
We need money will help us pay the ring. Customers
not coming here because they're not coming. No matter how
much it's been you know, twenty thousand on promotion, two
one hundred thousand on promotion. People are not coming. You
(08:17):
usual heard no noise. He's going to get worse.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Well, the CRL is costing billions of dollars in businesses
in Auckland's CBD have been affected. And it's only again,
like I say, three point five kilometers. By comparison, Sydney
built a sixteen kilometer twin tunnel under its harbor in
just seven years. So do you think this CRL is
going to be worth it in the end.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Oh, the CRL will be worth it in the end.
As I say, in New Zealand, we don't have the
same sort of level of expertise because we're not doing
it as commonly as other people do. They're businesses that
were affected that that was a debut. All of those
businesses should have actually been compensated, and that should have
been front loaded into the cost of the whole deal
because they just came in and they started disrupting all
(09:12):
these businesses and the businesses had no comeback. But ultimately,
when it is I honestly believe that it'll come into
its own and people will probably forget about the price.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Well changing tax slightly. But there's been a lot of
headlines in recent weeks about NZTA wanting to see councils
hit new revenue targets for public transport. Some councils have
suggested that that could see fees rise seventy percent in
some areas. What's happening here and are those fair rises justifiable?
Speaker 3 (09:47):
No, fair rises are never justifiable. You've have to have
a look at what public transport is there for. As
I say, it's there actually is an absolute service for
those that need it, but it's also there as a
service to the public, and it's also there to actually
get people out of cars, to reduce congestion on the roads.
It's actually there to actually reduce greenhouse gases. It's actually
(10:09):
there to actually provide a healthier way of getting about
the city. And as soon as you actually start to
actually put targets in the farebox, you're actually going to
become counterproductive. If you want to probably earn a little
bit more money, maybe reduce the fear slightly and you
might get a little bit more patronage and therefore you
might get a little bit more money. You increase the
(10:29):
farebox take and you start getting less passengers and you
just can't get beyond that. You know, there's only so
much you can actually take through the farebox of public
transport before you actually are starting to just sort of
disincline people to use it, and then you're going to
get the offshoots of greater congestion, less productivity due to that,
more road damage. It's a silly game to play. Basically,
(10:52):
public transport should be as free as possible and we
should be encouraging as many people to use it as possible.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Thanks for joining us now. New Zealand is finally expecting
an announcement about the future of its Cook Straight ferries
to discuss, we're joined now by Billy Clemens, Transporting New
(11:19):
Zealand's policy and advocacy lead. First off, Billy, when news
broke that Nicola Willis was canceling that mega ferry contract,
what was the industry's first response, the.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
Position of Transport in New Zealand and our road freight
company members was that the government made the right decision
to terminate the Iris mega ferries project. Look, it was
definitely a tough call and only some really significant sunk
costs involved, but what we'd seen in that project was
just a series of cost blowouts, and if anyone's interested,
(11:53):
I really encouraged them to check out the time frame
put out by the government guarding that Irex projects. You know,
to start in November twenty eighteen with an estimated price
of you know, seven hundred and seventy five million, although
that's you know, business case figures can can fluctuate a bit,
but then to end up in February twenty twenty three
or at the end of the project closer to three billion.
(12:15):
I think it was just the fact that unfortunately that
project had sort of lost its way. I think that
the cost blowouts were continuing, and you know, there's there's
the guvernment was getting advice from Treasury and Ministry of
Transport that there were serious concerns around the management of
the project and whether it could be effectively delivered, and
so I think that that was the right decision. And
also I think that the road freight industry had been concerned,
(12:37):
you know, from the beginning of the project that it
was spending a lot of money on two very large vessels,
but ultimately when you've only got two operating, unlike the
three that we've got at the moment, that introduces a
sort of risk to resilience, Whereas if one of those
vessels needs to go out for scheduled maintenance or an
unscheduled event, that really only leads you with one vessel operating.
(12:58):
So that was another concern that our members had, as
well as the management of the project and the overall cost.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
So there's an announcement due this week on the ferries
project by the government. You're hoping for more than two.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
I think that that would be optimal from from our position. However,
there's obviously currently two services operating across the strait, and
so our position has been looked. We're not locked in
particularly to one particular decision. I mean, whether it's a
service still operating as an SOE or you know, support
for another private operator coming in. Our primary concerns that
(13:34):
look so, so long as there are multiple vessels operating,
from our consideration, you know, from our position, we'd really
like that to be several vessels at least operating on
a competitive service, so that we avoid a situation we
end up with a monopoly across the strait. Because we
all know that in that monopoly situation, you can end
up with higher prices in a less satisfactory service for
(13:54):
businesses and consumers.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
In the year it's taken for the government to decide
on a cheaper alternative. Art has run aground. Ken we
Rowl's chairman retired early and there have been calls for
Willis to resign. Do you think it's good enough that
we've had to wait a year for an alternative?
Speaker 4 (14:10):
Yeah, I've certainly got some sympathy for those voices saying
it's been a long time. However, overall we're reasonably satisfied
with the process that the government's gone through. I think
it getting that independent Ministerial Advisory group with some pretty
smart commercial operators there to provide some good solid advice.
But the government also asked Ministry of Transport to go
(14:31):
and do some substantive advice sort of looking at the
long term requirements across the Strait that we're able to
contribute to. So I think that, you know, whereas it
has been a delay and there has been some stress
involved for our members crossing the Strait and you know,
wanting to support their staff and members operating moving live
stock across the Strait for example, that hasn't been ideal.
(14:52):
I think it is appropriate that the government's taken some
time to make sure they get this decision right, and
we're really hoping that when we get this announcement that
the government's going to be able to have a pretty
firm action plan in place so that we can get
these vessels operating as soon as possible, because I think
it was appropriate that some time was taken and that
some good advice was obtained.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
As the government committed to rail and able ferries, and.
Speaker 5 (15:17):
That's something that we'll work through. There's a whole bunch
of options on the table. The Minister of Advisor and
Group has given advice to the government about procurement and
will work our way through that in due course.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Do you think the first will let you.
Speaker 5 (15:27):
Not to It's not a conversation we've got into. There's
a Minister of Advisory Group we put in place as
soon as we came to power. The report's been generated
and given to us at the end of last week.
That needs to be digested by the shareholding ministers. But
what you can be assured about is that we're going
to get the right ships on the cock straight ferry.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Deputy Prime Minister and New Zealand First Leader Winston Peters.
He let it slip that the government will decide on
the ferries by today. I guess that's a bit of
a relief. And also he's been a long advocate of
making sure that those fairies continue to have rail enablement.
That's a relief, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
Yeah. I think from our perspective, this issue of rail
enabled fairies which sort of allows them to you know,
rail those rail wagons to be effectively driven straight onto
vessels versus rail compatible that situation, where are you going
to you get rail wagons taken off their tracks and
loaded on to ferries. So look, I think that from
an overall supply chain perspective, it it is important to
(16:28):
see rail compatibility. I think that Transport and New Zone
has been less concerned about rail enablement simply because that
does add an element of cost to a project. And
you know, we're our viewers. So long as you've got
some rail compatibility and the ability for rail to continue
to play the important role that it does, particularly around
(16:48):
you know, bulk cargo and right, that isn't time sensitive.
And I think we've heard some reassuring comments from the
government about the fact that they will continue to be
some rail compatibility, if not rail enablement.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
The Prime is so yesterday didn't really reveal any more details,
but he did say that the option or the announcement
will be cheaper than Labour's i REX project. Are you
satisfied with whatever the government's decided to do a It'll
be a good decision and not one that's been done
on the cheap and we'll have to replace sooner rather
(17:20):
than later. I suppose if that's the case, would you
be happy with that?
Speaker 4 (17:24):
Yeah, Frankly, we're going to have to wait and see
with the announcement. I think that you know what we
will be focused on, will be holding the government to
account on is look, is this going to deliver a safe,
resilient service that still ensures competition across the Strait so
you don't hit up with that monopoly operator. Yes, So
we'll wait and see along with our members and other
(17:46):
supply chain partners, and we'll certainly be holding the government
to account on how they deliver the project, because it
is it's really essential. I mean, it's thirty billion dollars
of for eighty year, equivalent to about seven percent of
new Zealand's GDP, so it's essential there's an action plan
for how these new vessels are going to be rolled out.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Well, the Cook Straight is essentially an extension of State
Highway one and Hay and it's really important not only
to get people across from one island to the other,
but freight.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
Yeah. Look, look we've been saying this a lot. You know,
our chief executive Dom Classie, it seems like he's been
asked for comment on the ferries almost as much as
he is on some traditional roading issues this year. You know,
it's a big deal and I think that you know, yeah,
whether you're a passenger and you're using that service or
whether you're someone who's relying on getting the ninety three
(18:34):
percent of goods in New Zealand transported by road, it's
really essential. I fig that what we've been hearing from
some of our operators with particular concerns of those transporting
livestock because obviously that's particularly sensitive cargo and if you
end up with delays there then you can end up
with some real animal wealthier risks and also operators are
carrying you know, refrigerated cargo are the time sensitive stock.
(18:56):
It really starts to impact our members's road freight operators.
You know, truck drivers can only works a certain number
of hours per day and per week. Soon as you
end up with the delay and they're parked up, it
means that essentially hit the d allowed working hours, so
you have to provide for relief drivers and all that
just results in delays and costs for consumers that no
(19:17):
one wants to be dealing with.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Thanks for joining us, Billy, Thanks.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
So much, Chelsea.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzadherld dot co dot enz. The Front Page is
produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also
our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front
Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and
(19:47):
tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
Kiyota.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Communities around
the country are waiting with baited breath for news about
major infrastructure projects, ones that are set to cost a
lot of money. The Government's expected to announce the future
(00:28):
of inter Islander's Cook Straight ferries this week, after the
three billion dollar mega ferry contract was canned last year
due to significant cost blowouts. Meanwhile, a reporter has revealed
a lack of confidence in a French contractor's forecasts for
the five point five billion dollar city rail Link in Auckland.
(00:51):
The company has execs flying out this month to address
those concerns. There's apparently a fifty percent likelihood the November
twenty twenty five completion date will be met later on
the Front Page. Transporting New Zealand's policy and advocacy lead
Billy Clemmens is with us to discuss why the industry
(01:11):
is on tenter hooks over the upcoming decision around the
Cook Straight ferries. But First Public Transport Users Association chairperson
Neil Robertson is with us to discuss the City rail link.
Neil what have we heard about the state of Auckland's
(01:34):
City rail Link.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
The City rail Link is always a little bit of
a worry because it's always there's always some concerns about
budget overruns and the time it takes to actually get
the thing finished. You know, when will it be actually
finished and will be finished on time? And I think
Auckland is a really keen to get this thing up
and running and get to use it and also get
(01:56):
to use the rest of the railway system without all
the disruptions and things that go with that. I think
there's a lot of conjecture at the moment as to
whether it's going to be a kind of over budget.
But Shawn sween you always warned us that once the
whole deal was done and built, it was a lot
of the other little infrastructure that goes into the tunnel
that it can actually cause problems, which is what happened
in the Crossrail problem project in London, where the project
(02:21):
was finished on time, on budget, but all the extra
sit signaling and wiring and whatever else that they required
in there actually took it way off budget and way
over time. So there is some anxiety about that at
the moment.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I think, yeah, well, a press release from CRL just
a few days ago said critical rail network upgrades being
delivered before CRL opens in twenty twenty six. So it
does sound like it's still convinced of this twenty twenty
six completion date. Is that a pipe dream?
Speaker 4 (02:52):
Though?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
At this point?
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Do you think, Well, they actually can't tell you for
sure because they have us think that. I think it's
a call it a P fifty or something, which means
that it's fifty percent chance that it will be open
actually on time on that time, And I think that's
about as much as they can give you at the moment.
It could run a little bit over that, but it
might actually might actually make it. Yeah, why has.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
It taken so long for this one project to be built?
Like nearly a decade under construction for three point five
kilometers seems a bit ridiculous, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
It is an awful long time for a short There's
a couple of things too. That one is the lack
of a skill in New Zealand. We don't have a
pipeline of these sort of projects going through the New
Zealand system, and so we actually have to import a
lot of expertise and we have to sort of innovate
a little bit with various other people. So there's a
lot of people who are sort of learning to get
to work together. But the other thing was COVID actually
(03:44):
did actually take quite a bit out of this project
and caused lots of delays. COVID actually was quite disruptive. Otherwise,
it's actually come along quite smoothly. I've actually walked through
it myself and seen it, and it is a good
I have done a good job of it. It's a
great tunnel.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Because of the City rail Link, Auckland's rail network will
be closed for ninety six days in twenty twenty five,
starting this month, across the entire summer period. Does that
feel like a bit much?
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Yeah? It does, and it feels like it's been going
on forever. The narrative is that the Aukland rail system
is going to be rebuilt because it hasn't been touched
for many, many years. It's actually not altogether true, because
the entire system has got new sleeper's, new rail, new ballast,
new signals. What is really happening in reality is that
(04:36):
the trains that they have for the Auproand rail system
actually require a higher standard of track than New Zealand
has had in the past, and so what Kyrail have
had to do is to increase the standard of the
track to be able to take the trains that we
use in Auckland without causing too much damage to the
railway lines. If the line is not properly drained and
(04:59):
kept even and a level in all places, and the
railheads ground down with a grinder, they will have a
problem called rolling contact fatigue. And I don't know if
you remember, but back in about twenty twenty one, I
think it was the system actually found that out and
that's why they had to replace virtually all the track
in Auckland, or not all of it, but a lot
of track in Auckland. Because you get rolling contact fatigue
(05:22):
on your track, you have to replace the line. So
they're actually that's what they're doing, is they're rebuilding the
standard of Auckland so that we'll guard against rolling contact fatigue.
Another solution would have been to actually have had trains,
perhaps like the Wellington system, which actually don't need this
high level of standard, and then we'd have less of
the disruption. The disruption has actually sort of been compounded
(05:46):
because it's you know, they learned about the rolling contact fatigue.
Latterly they've replaced all the tracks, so we had a disruption.
Then now they're going to have to go back and
do it all again properly, so that it's actually is
their of mitigation against that problem, far more than any
any other city in any other part of the world
that has had to put up with. But hopefully if
they do do it all, and they do do it
(06:06):
properly and they keep the maintenance up, Auckland will have
a first class railway.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
And presumably it's going to be quite hot over the
summer period as well, when we know what happens when
the tracks get hot.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
If they do this maintenance properly, there will be less
problems with heat buckling, and so that should actually mitigate
a lot of that as well. One of the things
that we found in Auckland is it that you know,
there seem to be problems when there was unpredicted problems,
things like points failures because they got some shonky equipment. Also,
(06:40):
the wind blows a little bit too much and then
we get a shortening out of some of the wires
and things, and these are the sort of things that
they really have to guard against and they've really got
to put more time and effort into actually getting up
and running properly. And so you know, again, all I
can say really is hopefully they will, because they haven't
to date, but hopefully they will, and hopefully all these
(07:00):
things will be mitigated. But it's an awful lot to
ask of the Aukland people. My concern always is how
this will affect patronage on public transport, because public transport
users obviously want to have good quality public transport and
don't want to be forced back into using cars. And
(07:21):
one of the things that people don't realize actually thirty
percent of our population actually rely on public support. That's
the young people, the elderly, disabled people and people on
low incomes, and there are a lot of people who
actually don't like to drive as well. So without a
good public transport system, you're actually forcing people into a
car dependent kind of a transport system. And that's not
(07:43):
what we want. We want to have good public transport
and it should be made available and usable as much
as possible. And these these disruptions are executively the antithesis
of that.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
We need money will help us pay the ring. Customers
not coming here because they're not coming. No matter how
much it's been you know, twenty thousand on promotion, two
one hundred thousand on promotion. People are not coming. You
(08:17):
usual heard no noise. He's going to get worse.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Well, the CRL is costing billions of dollars in businesses
in Auckland's CBD have been affected. And it's only again,
like I say, three point five kilometers. By comparison, Sydney
built a sixteen kilometer twin tunnel under its harbor in
just seven years. So do you think this CRL is
going to be worth it in the end.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Oh, the CRL will be worth it in the end.
As I say, in New Zealand, we don't have the
same sort of level of expertise because we're not doing
it as commonly as other people do. They're businesses that
were affected that that was a debut. All of those
businesses should have actually been compensated, and that should have
been front loaded into the cost of the whole deal
because they just came in and they started disrupting all
(09:12):
these businesses and the businesses had no comeback. But ultimately,
when it is I honestly believe that it'll come into
its own and people will probably forget about the price.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Well changing tax slightly. But there's been a lot of
headlines in recent weeks about NZTA wanting to see councils
hit new revenue targets for public transport. Some councils have
suggested that that could see fees rise seventy percent in
some areas. What's happening here and are those fair rises justifiable?
Speaker 3 (09:47):
No, fair rises are never justifiable. You've have to have
a look at what public transport is there for. As
I say, it's there actually is an absolute service for
those that need it, but it's also there as a
service to the public, and it's also there to actually
get people out of cars, to reduce congestion on the roads.
It's actually there to actually reduce greenhouse gases. It's actually
(10:09):
there to actually provide a healthier way of getting about
the city. And as soon as you actually start to
actually put targets in the farebox, you're actually going to
become counterproductive. If you want to probably earn a little
bit more money, maybe reduce the fear slightly and you
might get a little bit more patronage and therefore you
might get a little bit more money. You increase the
(10:29):
farebox take and you start getting less passengers and you
just can't get beyond that. You know, there's only so
much you can actually take through the farebox of public
transport before you actually are starting to just sort of
disincline people to use it, and then you're going to
get the offshoots of greater congestion, less productivity due to that,
more road damage. It's a silly game to play. Basically,
(10:52):
public transport should be as free as possible and we
should be encouraging as many people to use it as possible.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Thanks for joining us now. New Zealand is finally expecting
an announcement about the future of its Cook Straight ferries
to discuss, we're joined now by Billy Clemens, Transporting New
(11:19):
Zealand's policy and advocacy lead. First off, Billy, when news
broke that Nicola Willis was canceling that mega ferry contract,
what was the industry's first response, the.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
Position of Transport in New Zealand and our road freight
company members was that the government made the right decision
to terminate the Iris mega ferries project. Look, it was
definitely a tough call and only some really significant sunk
costs involved, but what we'd seen in that project was
just a series of cost blowouts, and if anyone's interested,
(11:53):
I really encouraged them to check out the time frame
put out by the government guarding that Irex projects. You know,
to start in November twenty eighteen with an estimated price
of you know, seven hundred and seventy five million, although
that's you know, business case figures can can fluctuate a bit,
but then to end up in February twenty twenty three
or at the end of the project closer to three billion.
(12:15):
I think it was just the fact that unfortunately that
project had sort of lost its way. I think that
the cost blowouts were continuing, and you know, there's there's
the guvernment was getting advice from Treasury and Ministry of
Transport that there were serious concerns around the management of
the project and whether it could be effectively delivered, and
so I think that that was the right decision. And
also I think that the road freight industry had been concerned,
(12:37):
you know, from the beginning of the project that it
was spending a lot of money on two very large vessels,
but ultimately when you've only got two operating, unlike the
three that we've got at the moment, that introduces a
sort of risk to resilience, Whereas if one of those
vessels needs to go out for scheduled maintenance or an
unscheduled event, that really only leads you with one vessel operating.
(12:58):
So that was another concern that our members had, as
well as the management of the project and the overall cost.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
So there's an announcement due this week on the ferries
project by the government. You're hoping for more than two.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
I think that that would be optimal from from our position. However,
there's obviously currently two services operating across the strait, and
so our position has been looked. We're not locked in
particularly to one particular decision. I mean, whether it's a
service still operating as an SOE or you know, support
for another private operator coming in. Our primary concerns that
(13:34):
look so, so long as there are multiple vessels operating,
from our consideration, you know, from our position, we'd really
like that to be several vessels at least operating on
a competitive service, so that we avoid a situation we
end up with a monopoly across the strait. Because we
all know that in that monopoly situation, you can end
up with higher prices in a less satisfactory service for
(13:54):
businesses and consumers.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
In the year it's taken for the government to decide
on a cheaper alternative. Art has run aground. Ken we
Rowl's chairman retired early and there have been calls for
Willis to resign. Do you think it's good enough that
we've had to wait a year for an alternative?
Speaker 4 (14:10):
Yeah, I've certainly got some sympathy for those voices saying
it's been a long time. However, overall we're reasonably satisfied
with the process that the government's gone through. I think
it getting that independent Ministerial Advisory group with some pretty
smart commercial operators there to provide some good solid advice.
But the government also asked Ministry of Transport to go
(14:31):
and do some substantive advice sort of looking at the
long term requirements across the Strait that we're able to
contribute to. So I think that, you know, whereas it
has been a delay and there has been some stress
involved for our members crossing the Strait and you know,
wanting to support their staff and members operating moving live
stock across the Strait for example, that hasn't been ideal.
(14:52):
I think it is appropriate that the government's taken some
time to make sure they get this decision right, and
we're really hoping that when we get this announcement that
the government's going to be able to have a pretty
firm action plan in place so that we can get
these vessels operating as soon as possible, because I think
it was appropriate that some time was taken and that
some good advice was obtained.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
As the government committed to rail and able ferries, and.
Speaker 5 (15:17):
That's something that we'll work through. There's a whole bunch
of options on the table. The Minister of Advisor and
Group has given advice to the government about procurement and
will work our way through that in due course.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Do you think the first will let you.
Speaker 5 (15:27):
Not to It's not a conversation we've got into. There's
a Minister of Advisory Group we put in place as
soon as we came to power. The report's been generated
and given to us at the end of last week.
That needs to be digested by the shareholding ministers. But
what you can be assured about is that we're going
to get the right ships on the cock straight ferry.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Deputy Prime Minister and New Zealand First Leader Winston Peters.
He let it slip that the government will decide on
the ferries by today. I guess that's a bit of
a relief. And also he's been a long advocate of
making sure that those fairies continue to have rail enablement.
That's a relief, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
Yeah. I think from our perspective, this issue of rail
enabled fairies which sort of allows them to you know,
rail those rail wagons to be effectively driven straight onto
vessels versus rail compatible that situation, where are you going
to you get rail wagons taken off their tracks and
loaded on to ferries. So look, I think that from
an overall supply chain perspective, it it is important to
(16:28):
see rail compatibility. I think that Transport and New Zone
has been less concerned about rail enablement simply because that
does add an element of cost to a project. And
you know, we're our viewers. So long as you've got
some rail compatibility and the ability for rail to continue
to play the important role that it does, particularly around
(16:48):
you know, bulk cargo and right, that isn't time sensitive.
And I think we've heard some reassuring comments from the
government about the fact that they will continue to be
some rail compatibility, if not rail enablement.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
The Prime is so yesterday didn't really reveal any more details,
but he did say that the option or the announcement
will be cheaper than Labour's i REX project. Are you
satisfied with whatever the government's decided to do a It'll
be a good decision and not one that's been done
on the cheap and we'll have to replace sooner rather
(17:20):
than later. I suppose if that's the case, would you
be happy with that?
Speaker 4 (17:24):
Yeah, Frankly, we're going to have to wait and see
with the announcement. I think that you know what we
will be focused on, will be holding the government to
account on is look, is this going to deliver a safe,
resilient service that still ensures competition across the Strait so
you don't hit up with that monopoly operator. Yes, So
we'll wait and see along with our members and other
(17:46):
supply chain partners, and we'll certainly be holding the government
to account on how they deliver the project, because it
is it's really essential. I mean, it's thirty billion dollars
of for eighty year, equivalent to about seven percent of
new Zealand's GDP, so it's essential there's an action plan
for how these new vessels are going to be rolled out.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Well, the Cook Straight is essentially an extension of State
Highway one and Hay and it's really important not only
to get people across from one island to the other,
but freight.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
Yeah. Look, look we've been saying this a lot. You know,
our chief executive Dom Classie, it seems like he's been
asked for comment on the ferries almost as much as
he is on some traditional roading issues this year. You know,
it's a big deal and I think that you know, yeah,
whether you're a passenger and you're using that service or
whether you're someone who's relying on getting the ninety three
(18:34):
percent of goods in New Zealand transported by road, it's
really essential. I fig that what we've been hearing from
some of our operators with particular concerns of those transporting
livestock because obviously that's particularly sensitive cargo and if you
end up with delays there then you can end up
with some real animal wealthier risks and also operators are
carrying you know, refrigerated cargo are the time sensitive stock.
(18:56):
It really starts to impact our members's road freight operators.
You know, truck drivers can only works a certain number
of hours per day and per week. Soon as you
end up with the delay and they're parked up, it
means that essentially hit the d allowed working hours, so
you have to provide for relief drivers and all that
just results in delays and costs for consumers that no
(19:17):
one wants to be dealing with.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Thanks for joining us, Billy, Thanks.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
So much, Chelsea.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzadherld dot co dot enz. The Front Page is
produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also
our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front
Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and
(19:47):
tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
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