December 2, 2025 • 19 mins
Regional, territorial, unitary, wards and boards.
Local government in New Zealand is made up of 78 different councils that make decisions we encounter daily.
The roads, air, rubbish, waters, environment – it's all local government.
So, why has central government announced a need for change? And why has the Prime Minister himself implored councils to “stop doing dumb stuff”?
Today on The Front Page, Victoria University of Wellington associate professor in politics, Lara Greaves, is with us to take us through what it all means, and what the future could hold for our local councils.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Editor/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Jane Yee
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Yea.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
Zealand Herald.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Regional Territorial Unitary Wards and Boards. Local government in New
Zealand is made up of seventy eight different councils that
make the decisions we encounter daily the Rhodes Air, rubbish
waters environment. It's all local government. So why has central
(00:36):
government announced a need for change and why has the
Prime Minister himself implored councils to.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Quote stop doing dumb stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Today On the front page of Victoria. University of Wellington,
Associate Professor in Politics, Lara Grieves is with us to
take us through what this all means and what the
future could hold for our local councils. So Laura, let's
talk first about the rates cap. So that's the annual
rates increases would be limited to between two and four percent.
(01:10):
Consultation has begun and they want the laws passed through
the House by the start of twenty twenty seven in
place by twenty twenty nine.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Now, on one hand.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yay lower rates, right, the days of double digits would
be over, whether permitting. Of course, there will be exemptions
for things like natural disasters and things like that. But
on the other hand, there are concerns that the cuts
will mean cuts to basic services. And I wanted to
ask you, is it a myth that councils spend a
lot of money on stupid stuff.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
That's a hard one, right, because on a day to
day basis, everyone's filling the pinch, everyone's going to the supermarket,
and it's so expensive and people are kind of like
living their lives, trying to have a picture al rent
and all of those bits and pieces. So if they
are a homeowner and they get that rates bill and
they hear about those rates increases, they kind of feel,
I don't know, mixed feelings around, well, why can't the
(02:02):
council manage money better? I have to manage my budget better.
And that's a lot a lot of people are feeling
on a day to day basis, And of course, if
you own a house, you know there's an argument that
you would pass those rates increases onto renters as well.
So it affects kind of everyone, and a lot of
people are quite concerned about. Yeah, there's double digit rates increases,
like you said, However, on a day to day basis,
(02:24):
the council does fund a lot of good things that
kind of make our communities communities a lot of good
things that we use a lot. I mean, as an academic,
I use the libraries a lot. But that's one thing.
But people go and give books to their kids. You know.
There's the kind of rubbish delivery kind of pretty important.
You know, if you've ever been to a country that
doesn't have those sorts of services, very important something we need.
(02:46):
There's also the things around the water infrastructure. Wellington's problems
have really highlighted that, different things around transport and roading,
and I'll just all sorts of bits and pieces there
that we don't really think about on a day to
day basis, just kind of take advannadov in living our lives.
So this then becomes a bit of an ashure around. Okay,
so if council has less money to be able to
(03:09):
fund these things and they have to prioritize different bits
and pieces, it may mean that we end up in
more of say like a user pay system or something
along those lines, which then that becomes a bit of
a cultural issue for New Zealanders who are used to
say free or cheap public pools or library services and
bits and pieces like that. Ultimately, the majority at polling shows,
(03:29):
and this was put it on the Herald, that seventy
five percent of people support these rates caps increase caps.
A lot of those questions comes down to how you
ask the question though, that's what a lot of political
science that should say. So if I say, do you
want lower taxes or lower rates? People go yes. But
then if I say, if that means that you have
to pay every time you go to the library or
(03:51):
have to pay for services through some other kind of
levee or tax, would you want that? People go no.
So it's it's one of those kind of hardolitical issues
that people have a gut reaction on, but when they
look into it more, their opinion might change.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah, I see that both Labor and the Greens oppose
the rate's cap and that's despite that polling. Like you said,
seventy five percent of kiwis support it. But again the
questioning around that we'd have to look at that. But
I imagine that this would be a move that will bode
well for national calm election time, because they've not only
(04:27):
now got your soft on crime, but they've got the
you want people to pay more rates or something, you
know what I mean? Like, so, is this quite a
clever tactic going into twenty twenty six?
Speaker 3 (04:39):
We have to think about what the big issues are
for people, right, and so the cost of living or
the economy or something around affordability day to day is
a big issue for New Zealand. Isn't a big issue
in polling, like, that's what they consistently say, So this
kind of would on the surface look like it would
help to alleviate that for people. So that might be
a big tech for voters. Kind of overall, we don't
(05:01):
see in a lot of the sort of voting data
and a lot of the political science literature that people
are local government voters like that's not a big issue
high up on their thing. But it might be that
this kind of makes it feel to people like that
costs will come under control, So it gives them that
greater sense of control and kind of hope for the
future around this. Again, whether that's an actual you know,
(05:22):
economic reality or fact or not, that's that's kind of
will come out in the wash, so to speak. So
that I guess part of that broader conversation of does
it look like that, you know, national will be tough
on spending like they're tough, say they're tough on crime.
It's part of that broader package or package of ideas
that they'll be going to the election on. And yeah,
I think that that will contribute to that discourse and
(05:45):
bits and pieces. We know that people generally, you know,
if you look at the groups of society that people
don't tend to support on a day to day basis,
you know it's the council and other politicians and normally
not high out the kind of trust ranking. So I
think that local government and local government spending is a
kind of sensible rhetorical, discursive, kind of target or group
(06:08):
that you could talk about in negative ways that won't
get a lot of pushback, but will help to kind
of contribute to this overall package of policies or brand
that as a party national will get tough on things
like spending and waste for spending.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Are you frustrated off the performance of your local council, Well,
the good news is that changes come out and the
government is acting. We think local government has lost its way,
it's lost its social license.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
This is all about thripping cost out.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Of the system, reducing duplication, making it more organizationally efficient
and ultimately getting better value.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
For money for rate payers. But here's the take home point.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Something's got to change because the status bob is not acceptable.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yeah. So, at the same time, IRMA reform minister Chris
Bishop has described potential changes to local authorities. He says
it's the most significant changes potentially to local government since
nineteen eighty nine. Tell me about these ideas. What ideas
does he have for local government?
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Well, what we've seen over the years is that you know,
local government was established and we've just kind of gone
along long all through the eighties, nineties, two thousands and
so on. So this kind of local government structure was created.
It's evolved in little bits and pieces over time, but
there haven't been that substantive structural change. I have to
say over the past sort of fifteen years. My career
in politics political science is that we often do wring
(07:35):
our hands over local government and kind of go, oh,
something needs to change. There was a local government review
in twenty twenty three that had a bunch of recommendations.
Every time we have local government elections. I spent a
lot of time talking about turnout being love and the
issues around turnout. So we know that structurally there are
some issues with local government. And one of the kind
(07:56):
of debates in terms of local government is is it
too big? Is it too complicated? Is it too bureaucratic?
And if you're of a party on the right, you're
generally going to say yes. You know, the Taxpayers Union
have been campaigning for the reduced rates, the less spending,
a less bureaucratic structure. ACTS National tend to campaign on
(08:19):
this as well and tend to kind of raise these ideas.
It was the ACT party that amalgamated. They take credit
for amalgamating the Auckland councils as well. I remember they're
all the different kind of North Shore Council, all of those,
but amalgamated and twenty ten as a result of some
of their work. So this has been a long kind
of running issue of can you kind of cut truck
(08:40):
and change something in local government. The government has proposed
removing the eleven regional councils and instead kind of creating
these committees to oversee that work. A lot of the
regional council workers around resource management like land news planning
and environmental water type matters. All of those bits and pieces,
so basically try to make changes to that system to
(09:01):
remove that bureaucracy. What we have seen when local government
has changed, for example around the supercity, is that you
don't end up like there's still those roles still have
to exist in some way. There's still often other people
that come in to do the job. You couldn't drop
a lot of those functions. And the other thing within
that we're still to kind of stare is what happens
(09:22):
around citivity and kapu and EWA and local government in
that space. So yeah, it's really overall an argument of
do you want to kind of maintain the current level
of government in the structure or do you want to
cut some of it away. And we've seen this government's
general policy agenda has been to reduce bits and pieces
in the sort of policy public sector governance structures, and
(09:45):
so this kind of smaller government, reducing some of the
levels of local council makes a lot of sense in
terms of their overall direction as a government.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Because a lot of people say what would be able
to say the name of the mayor right where they live.
A smaller group probably know their local counselor maybe because
you know, forty percent turnout for local ellections. A few
people out there must know their local counselors, but you'd
be hard pressed to know who your regional counselor is,
or who the CEO of your regional council is or something.
(10:16):
For example, Hey, so there does seem to be too
many cooks in the kitchen in that respect. But you're
saying if somebody is looking after I don't know, like
E can for example, Environment Canterbury. They look out for
all of the wetlands and they've got, you know, these
massive projects about natural resources and things like that that'll
(10:37):
just have to be amalgamated into the christ Church City
Council presumably.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Yeah, so that that's kind of the broad direction of
travel there. I think that you don't really think about
local government until something goes wrong, you know, or like
you need to think about local government. And I would
say different stakeholder groups think about local government a lot more.
Say you're in a sports clubs than you're on the
committee of that sports club. We're doing some kind of
(11:02):
volunteer work. I think that that's where you would think
more about your local government and the functions there. Or Yeah,
if they do something that really irks you, really annoys you.
I think that that's where you think about local government,
because they sure do have low levels of voted turnout,
and generally there's a low level of awareness or knowledge about,
you know, what they do on a day to day,
(11:23):
week to week, month to month basis. So there's that
that problem, and that that problem has been one that
has been persisting for decades. Is what exactly to do
structurally about local government to make sure it's a sufficient
as possible and that it's actually fulfilling the needs of
the community and the community cares enough to turn out
to vote. Do these reforms kind of help help to
(11:43):
fix some of that potentially? I mean, we will see
what happens. I mean, if if it goes into gets
gets in and gets put in place and time and
with the election and puts and pieces there. But I mean,
I think a big frustration to some of us who've
kind of taught on these issues is, yeah, the layers
of publication and the lack of kind of clarity of
(12:05):
what it is that everyone does on a day to
day basis, and it's still opaque for students who don't
know that little alone you kind of go on the
street kind of person, the average vita. So it's a
big problem, and I'm not sure that the reforms that
have been proposed will fix that big, broad structural problem.
(12:25):
But it's like someone's doing something finally in local government,
which hasn't always been the case.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, like even the fact that we're starting to kind
of talk about it again, I suppose, But do you
reckon that those suggestions for reform are actually a bit light,
Like could we see, for example, an amalgamation of councils
into one.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Like the Auckland super City.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
So I was looking at this map of all of
the regional councils and you know, the district councils, the
local boards, etc. Why Cato region has like ten district
councils or something like that. And I remember we were
down there speeding to the Waititomo mayor, and even he
mentioned to us that maybe, you know, there could be
(13:06):
some amalgamation of those smaller councils, especially as well, because
though some of those councilors are only paid and I say,
only paid twenty to fifty k a year compared to
the bigger councils like Auckland, You've got over one hundred
k year for some of those counselors.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
So is it time to have.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
A much bigger, harsher conversation than the one we're even
having now?
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Well, what I would say is that there are various
reviews that I've seen haven't necessarily proposed a structure. They've
proposed principles or ideas or values, but not necessarily a
structure of let's sort it out. This is where I
would like to see something like some citizens assemblies or
some deliberative democracy where you randomly select one hundred people
from whatever town, bring them together and get them to
discuss these issues and try to figure out what actually
(13:51):
a good kind of system with a good mandate looks like.
And local government, I mean a lot to do. Any
of that would mean investing time, resources, reporting another review
a bunch of experts, and it would just be another one,
and then ultimately would that report just end up filed
on some minister's desk. But I think that ultimately a
lot of the local government structures were set up more
(14:13):
than a century ago, you know the reality, Yeah, the
way like I'm thinking back to the borough councils and
all of those bits and pieces, And it's like governments,
I think generally and not making those big structural changes
in a lot of areas of our lives, right like
you know, the economy, but and pieces. So I don't
necessarily think that we can expectment some government to actually
(14:34):
do it, actually sit down and go, how is this
going to be organized? What is an efficient their way
in the way that say, you know, electorates are organized
where you have say seventy thousand people per electorate, and
that's an electorate, that's a geographic area, and it's drawn
a certain way. So I think ultimately it would be
great if someone did just like go, okay, we're going
(14:56):
to take a global view, We're going to sort this
out once and sort this out with some kind of
for US party mandate and get it sorted into the future.
That would be ideal, But I can't see us doing
that the way that our current politics are set out.
I mean, it would be a great service if labor
and national will get together and sort it out for
the decades to come, but instead we will have all
(15:16):
of these kind of I'm sure it's kind of amusing
spending decisions and these like local government situations in the future.
And I imagine that in ten years time we'll probably
be sitting here having the same conversation.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
You know, stop doing dumb stuff. You know, did you
need to spend two million dollars here in Wellington on a.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Public toilet block?
Speaker 4 (15:40):
No money on Joda bars and you know, rather than
actually fixing roads. So I mean, this is going to
force you know, when you've got scarcity, you know, as
we find the central government having inherited the mess we
got from the labor government. You know, when you're actually
paying a nine billion dollar interest bill and that's four
or five teen hospitals you can't all each and every
(16:00):
year because of that in trust bill.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Thank you later.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah, And even the rhetoric between central government and local
government as well is pretty harsh. Hey, Like you've got
the Prime Minister out here saying, you know, councils need
to stop doing dumb stuff. It's like, well, that doesn't
instill too much hope and too much pride in our
local government, does it. And I mean, and you've also
(16:25):
got situations around the country as well where the government
has had to step in and bring in the Commissioner, etc.
But I kind of guess like if we fixed quote
unquote the situation as a whole. You would have better
people coming forward to become a local counselor, you'd have
(16:48):
better ideas around the table, and more transparency and the
public actually.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Knowing what all of these people do. Thus, more people.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Are going out to vote because people probably don't realize
as soon as you step outside of your door, you've
encountered probably like five things that local government has done
for you.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Yeah. Yeah, generally this is a big issue, and I'm
looking forward to seeing what changes, you know, the changes
to the NCAA and the Civics and citizenship type curriculum changes.
Hopefully that builds in some kind of local government educational
knowledge into that. The other thing, of course, is that
for local government, a lot of the people aren't particularly
(17:28):
well paid. It's like a part time job for them.
And of course we've seen that broader context of like
violent freaks towards women running in local government. So if
you kind of combine all of these contexts together, you
can see why someone wouldn't want to stand for local government.
You know, the first that like not knowledge about what
they do, feeling undervalued by central government, and then this
kind of context and bits and pieces that we're hearing,
(17:50):
and yeah, people not even turning up to vote. So
I mean, if you if you set up a system
like that, who are you going to get that's going
to run and who are you going to get around
those decision making governance tables. So I think it's just
one of those things where we keep wringing our hands
thinking on what could it look like, what could a
good future model be. We'd also need to figure out
what to do with Malori representation because one of the
(18:12):
big things on the last year that's been in the
media around local government, of course, has been the Mali
Woods referendums. So there's a few issues to sort out there.
But again it's like I feel like we spend so
much of our time kind of going, well, what's wrong
with local government? And there's actually some real positive things
and some great things that they do in the community,
(18:34):
and things that like, if you are someone who loves
your community and wants to get involved, the old hope
people would go forward and yeah, really see change. I
think a lot of the local government politicists I've heard
from find it rewarding, find it rewarding to see things
on the ground actually change in their communities, and yeah,
it's a really kind of positive thing where like local
(18:56):
people make local decisions. But yeah, set against the this
kind of negativity and the turnout and the Prime minister's comments.
So it's again, it's probably one of those what we
would call wicked problems of like local government that we
have to continually move back towards trying to figure out
something to do with it. And yeah, hopefully someone will
sort it at some point. Thanks for joining us, Lara Sulda.
(19:20):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also
our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page
on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune
(19:46):
in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
Yea.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
Zealand Herald.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Regional Territorial Unitary Wards and Boards. Local government in New
Zealand is made up of seventy eight different councils that
make the decisions we encounter daily the Rhodes Air, rubbish
waters environment. It's all local government. So why has central
(00:36):
government announced a need for change and why has the
Prime Minister himself implored councils to.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Quote stop doing dumb stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Today On the front page of Victoria. University of Wellington,
Associate Professor in Politics, Lara Grieves is with us to
take us through what this all means and what the
future could hold for our local councils. So Laura, let's
talk first about the rates cap. So that's the annual
rates increases would be limited to between two and four percent.
(01:10):
Consultation has begun and they want the laws passed through
the House by the start of twenty twenty seven in
place by twenty twenty nine.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Now, on one hand.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yay lower rates, right, the days of double digits would
be over, whether permitting. Of course, there will be exemptions
for things like natural disasters and things like that. But
on the other hand, there are concerns that the cuts
will mean cuts to basic services. And I wanted to
ask you, is it a myth that councils spend a
lot of money on stupid stuff.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
That's a hard one, right, because on a day to
day basis, everyone's filling the pinch, everyone's going to the supermarket,
and it's so expensive and people are kind of like
living their lives, trying to have a picture al rent
and all of those bits and pieces. So if they
are a homeowner and they get that rates bill and
they hear about those rates increases, they kind of feel,
I don't know, mixed feelings around, well, why can't the
(02:02):
council manage money better? I have to manage my budget better.
And that's a lot a lot of people are feeling
on a day to day basis, And of course, if
you own a house, you know there's an argument that
you would pass those rates increases onto renters as well.
So it affects kind of everyone, and a lot of
people are quite concerned about. Yeah, there's double digit rates increases,
like you said, However, on a day to day basis,
(02:24):
the council does fund a lot of good things that
kind of make our communities communities a lot of good
things that we use a lot. I mean, as an academic,
I use the libraries a lot. But that's one thing.
But people go and give books to their kids. You know.
There's the kind of rubbish delivery kind of pretty important.
You know, if you've ever been to a country that
doesn't have those sorts of services, very important something we need.
(02:46):
There's also the things around the water infrastructure. Wellington's problems
have really highlighted that, different things around transport and roading,
and I'll just all sorts of bits and pieces there
that we don't really think about on a day to
day basis, just kind of take advannadov in living our lives.
So this then becomes a bit of an ashure around. Okay,
so if council has less money to be able to
(03:09):
fund these things and they have to prioritize different bits
and pieces, it may mean that we end up in
more of say like a user pay system or something
along those lines, which then that becomes a bit of
a cultural issue for New Zealanders who are used to
say free or cheap public pools or library services and
bits and pieces like that. Ultimately, the majority at polling shows,
(03:29):
and this was put it on the Herald, that seventy
five percent of people support these rates caps increase caps.
A lot of those questions comes down to how you
ask the question though, that's what a lot of political
science that should say. So if I say, do you
want lower taxes or lower rates? People go yes. But
then if I say, if that means that you have
to pay every time you go to the library or
(03:51):
have to pay for services through some other kind of
levee or tax, would you want that? People go no.
So it's it's one of those kind of hardolitical issues
that people have a gut reaction on, but when they
look into it more, their opinion might change.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah, I see that both Labor and the Greens oppose
the rate's cap and that's despite that polling. Like you said,
seventy five percent of kiwis support it. But again the
questioning around that we'd have to look at that. But
I imagine that this would be a move that will bode
well for national calm election time, because they've not only
(04:27):
now got your soft on crime, but they've got the
you want people to pay more rates or something, you
know what I mean? Like, so, is this quite a
clever tactic going into twenty twenty six?
Speaker 3 (04:39):
We have to think about what the big issues are
for people, right, and so the cost of living or
the economy or something around affordability day to day is
a big issue for New Zealand. Isn't a big issue
in polling, like, that's what they consistently say, So this
kind of would on the surface look like it would
help to alleviate that for people. So that might be
a big tech for voters. Kind of overall, we don't
(05:01):
see in a lot of the sort of voting data
and a lot of the political science literature that people
are local government voters like that's not a big issue
high up on their thing. But it might be that
this kind of makes it feel to people like that
costs will come under control, So it gives them that
greater sense of control and kind of hope for the
future around this. Again, whether that's an actual you know,
(05:22):
economic reality or fact or not, that's that's kind of
will come out in the wash, so to speak. So
that I guess part of that broader conversation of does
it look like that, you know, national will be tough
on spending like they're tough, say they're tough on crime.
It's part of that broader package or package of ideas
that they'll be going to the election on. And yeah,
I think that that will contribute to that discourse and
(05:45):
bits and pieces. We know that people generally, you know,
if you look at the groups of society that people
don't tend to support on a day to day basis,
you know it's the council and other politicians and normally
not high out the kind of trust ranking. So I
think that local government and local government spending is a
kind of sensible rhetorical, discursive, kind of target or group
(06:08):
that you could talk about in negative ways that won't
get a lot of pushback, but will help to kind
of contribute to this overall package of policies or brand
that as a party national will get tough on things
like spending and waste for spending.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Are you frustrated off the performance of your local council, Well,
the good news is that changes come out and the
government is acting. We think local government has lost its way,
it's lost its social license.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
This is all about thripping cost out.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Of the system, reducing duplication, making it more organizationally efficient
and ultimately getting better value.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
For money for rate payers. But here's the take home point.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Something's got to change because the status bob is not acceptable.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yeah. So, at the same time, IRMA reform minister Chris
Bishop has described potential changes to local authorities. He says
it's the most significant changes potentially to local government since
nineteen eighty nine. Tell me about these ideas. What ideas
does he have for local government?
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Well, what we've seen over the years is that you know,
local government was established and we've just kind of gone
along long all through the eighties, nineties, two thousands and
so on. So this kind of local government structure was created.
It's evolved in little bits and pieces over time, but
there haven't been that substantive structural change. I have to
say over the past sort of fifteen years. My career
in politics political science is that we often do wring
(07:35):
our hands over local government and kind of go, oh,
something needs to change. There was a local government review
in twenty twenty three that had a bunch of recommendations.
Every time we have local government elections. I spent a
lot of time talking about turnout being love and the
issues around turnout. So we know that structurally there are
some issues with local government. And one of the kind
(07:56):
of debates in terms of local government is is it
too big? Is it too complicated? Is it too bureaucratic?
And if you're of a party on the right, you're
generally going to say yes. You know, the Taxpayers Union
have been campaigning for the reduced rates, the less spending,
a less bureaucratic structure. ACTS National tend to campaign on
(08:19):
this as well and tend to kind of raise these ideas.
It was the ACT party that amalgamated. They take credit
for amalgamating the Auckland councils as well. I remember they're
all the different kind of North Shore Council, all of those,
but amalgamated and twenty ten as a result of some
of their work. So this has been a long kind
of running issue of can you kind of cut truck
(08:40):
and change something in local government. The government has proposed
removing the eleven regional councils and instead kind of creating
these committees to oversee that work. A lot of the
regional council workers around resource management like land news planning
and environmental water type matters. All of those bits and pieces,
so basically try to make changes to that system to
(09:01):
remove that bureaucracy. What we have seen when local government
has changed, for example around the supercity, is that you
don't end up like there's still those roles still have
to exist in some way. There's still often other people
that come in to do the job. You couldn't drop
a lot of those functions. And the other thing within
that we're still to kind of stare is what happens
(09:22):
around citivity and kapu and EWA and local government in
that space. So yeah, it's really overall an argument of
do you want to kind of maintain the current level
of government in the structure or do you want to
cut some of it away. And we've seen this government's
general policy agenda has been to reduce bits and pieces
in the sort of policy public sector governance structures, and
(09:45):
so this kind of smaller government, reducing some of the
levels of local council makes a lot of sense in
terms of their overall direction as a government.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Because a lot of people say what would be able
to say the name of the mayor right where they live.
A smaller group probably know their local counselor maybe because
you know, forty percent turnout for local ellections. A few
people out there must know their local counselors, but you'd
be hard pressed to know who your regional counselor is,
or who the CEO of your regional council is or something.
(10:16):
For example, Hey, so there does seem to be too
many cooks in the kitchen in that respect. But you're
saying if somebody is looking after I don't know, like
E can for example, Environment Canterbury. They look out for
all of the wetlands and they've got, you know, these
massive projects about natural resources and things like that that'll
(10:37):
just have to be amalgamated into the christ Church City
Council presumably.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Yeah, so that that's kind of the broad direction of
travel there. I think that you don't really think about
local government until something goes wrong, you know, or like
you need to think about local government. And I would
say different stakeholder groups think about local government a lot more.
Say you're in a sports clubs than you're on the
committee of that sports club. We're doing some kind of
(11:02):
volunteer work. I think that that's where you would think
more about your local government and the functions there. Or Yeah,
if they do something that really irks you, really annoys you.
I think that that's where you think about local government,
because they sure do have low levels of voted turnout,
and generally there's a low level of awareness or knowledge about,
you know, what they do on a day to day,
(11:23):
week to week, month to month basis. So there's that
that problem, and that that problem has been one that
has been persisting for decades. Is what exactly to do
structurally about local government to make sure it's a sufficient
as possible and that it's actually fulfilling the needs of
the community and the community cares enough to turn out
to vote. Do these reforms kind of help help to
(11:43):
fix some of that potentially? I mean, we will see
what happens. I mean, if if it goes into gets
gets in and gets put in place and time and
with the election and puts and pieces there. But I mean,
I think a big frustration to some of us who've
kind of taught on these issues is, yeah, the layers
of publication and the lack of kind of clarity of
(12:05):
what it is that everyone does on a day to
day basis, and it's still opaque for students who don't
know that little alone you kind of go on the
street kind of person, the average vita. So it's a
big problem, and I'm not sure that the reforms that
have been proposed will fix that big, broad structural problem.
(12:25):
But it's like someone's doing something finally in local government,
which hasn't always been the case.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, like even the fact that we're starting to kind
of talk about it again, I suppose, But do you
reckon that those suggestions for reform are actually a bit light,
Like could we see, for example, an amalgamation of councils
into one.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Like the Auckland super City.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
So I was looking at this map of all of
the regional councils and you know, the district councils, the
local boards, etc. Why Cato region has like ten district
councils or something like that. And I remember we were
down there speeding to the Waititomo mayor, and even he
mentioned to us that maybe, you know, there could be
(13:06):
some amalgamation of those smaller councils, especially as well, because
though some of those councilors are only paid and I say,
only paid twenty to fifty k a year compared to
the bigger councils like Auckland, You've got over one hundred
k year for some of those counselors.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
So is it time to have.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
A much bigger, harsher conversation than the one we're even
having now?
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Well, what I would say is that there are various
reviews that I've seen haven't necessarily proposed a structure. They've
proposed principles or ideas or values, but not necessarily a
structure of let's sort it out. This is where I
would like to see something like some citizens assemblies or
some deliberative democracy where you randomly select one hundred people
from whatever town, bring them together and get them to
discuss these issues and try to figure out what actually
(13:51):
a good kind of system with a good mandate looks like.
And local government, I mean a lot to do. Any
of that would mean investing time, resources, reporting another review
a bunch of experts, and it would just be another one,
and then ultimately would that report just end up filed
on some minister's desk. But I think that ultimately a
lot of the local government structures were set up more
(14:13):
than a century ago, you know the reality, Yeah, the
way like I'm thinking back to the borough councils and
all of those bits and pieces, And it's like governments,
I think generally and not making those big structural changes
in a lot of areas of our lives, right like
you know, the economy, but and pieces. So I don't
necessarily think that we can expectment some government to actually
(14:34):
do it, actually sit down and go, how is this
going to be organized? What is an efficient their way
in the way that say, you know, electorates are organized
where you have say seventy thousand people per electorate, and
that's an electorate, that's a geographic area, and it's drawn
a certain way. So I think ultimately it would be
great if someone did just like go, okay, we're going
(14:56):
to take a global view, We're going to sort this
out once and sort this out with some kind of
for US party mandate and get it sorted into the future.
That would be ideal, But I can't see us doing
that the way that our current politics are set out.
I mean, it would be a great service if labor
and national will get together and sort it out for
the decades to come, but instead we will have all
(15:16):
of these kind of I'm sure it's kind of amusing
spending decisions and these like local government situations in the future.
And I imagine that in ten years time we'll probably
be sitting here having the same conversation.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
You know, stop doing dumb stuff. You know, did you
need to spend two million dollars here in Wellington on a.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Public toilet block?
Speaker 4 (15:40):
No money on Joda bars and you know, rather than
actually fixing roads. So I mean, this is going to
force you know, when you've got scarcity, you know, as
we find the central government having inherited the mess we
got from the labor government. You know, when you're actually
paying a nine billion dollar interest bill and that's four
or five teen hospitals you can't all each and every
(16:00):
year because of that in trust bill.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Thank you later.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah, And even the rhetoric between central government and local
government as well is pretty harsh. Hey, Like you've got
the Prime Minister out here saying, you know, councils need
to stop doing dumb stuff. It's like, well, that doesn't
instill too much hope and too much pride in our
local government, does it. And I mean, and you've also
(16:25):
got situations around the country as well where the government
has had to step in and bring in the Commissioner, etc.
But I kind of guess like if we fixed quote
unquote the situation as a whole. You would have better
people coming forward to become a local counselor, you'd have
(16:48):
better ideas around the table, and more transparency and the
public actually.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Knowing what all of these people do. Thus, more people.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Are going out to vote because people probably don't realize
as soon as you step outside of your door, you've
encountered probably like five things that local government has done
for you.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Yeah. Yeah, generally this is a big issue, and I'm
looking forward to seeing what changes, you know, the changes
to the NCAA and the Civics and citizenship type curriculum changes.
Hopefully that builds in some kind of local government educational
knowledge into that. The other thing, of course, is that
for local government, a lot of the people aren't particularly
(17:28):
well paid. It's like a part time job for them.
And of course we've seen that broader context of like
violent freaks towards women running in local government. So if
you kind of combine all of these contexts together, you
can see why someone wouldn't want to stand for local government.
You know, the first that like not knowledge about what
they do, feeling undervalued by central government, and then this
kind of context and bits and pieces that we're hearing,
(17:50):
and yeah, people not even turning up to vote. So
I mean, if you if you set up a system
like that, who are you going to get that's going
to run and who are you going to get around
those decision making governance tables. So I think it's just
one of those things where we keep wringing our hands
thinking on what could it look like, what could a
good future model be. We'd also need to figure out
what to do with Malori representation because one of the
(18:12):
big things on the last year that's been in the
media around local government, of course, has been the Mali
Woods referendums. So there's a few issues to sort out there.
But again it's like I feel like we spend so
much of our time kind of going, well, what's wrong
with local government? And there's actually some real positive things
and some great things that they do in the community,
(18:34):
and things that like, if you are someone who loves
your community and wants to get involved, the old hope
people would go forward and yeah, really see change. I
think a lot of the local government politicists I've heard
from find it rewarding, find it rewarding to see things
on the ground actually change in their communities, and yeah,
it's a really kind of positive thing where like local
(18:56):
people make local decisions. But yeah, set against the this
kind of negativity and the turnout and the Prime minister's comments.
So it's again, it's probably one of those what we
would call wicked problems of like local government that we
have to continually move back towards trying to figure out
something to do with it. And yeah, hopefully someone will
sort it at some point. Thanks for joining us, Lara Sulda.
(19:20):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also
our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page
on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune
(19:46):
in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
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