July 21, 2024 • 25 mins
It’s no secret New Zealand is suffering a major mental health crisis.
Many people, including teens and children, often wait weeks to see someone when they seek help.
It's so dire, a survey of those at the coal face of the crisis describes a system that’s under pressure, under-resourced, and under-delivering for New Zealanders.
So, is there hope on the horizon with the coalition Government’s addition of a specialised mental health portfolio?
Today on The Front Page, Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey is with us to discuss what moves are being made to make sure help’s there when we need it.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Sound Engineer: Evan Paea
Producer: Ethan Sills
Suicide and depression help services:
If it is an emergency and you or someone else is at risk, call 111.
For counselling and support:
- Lifeline: http://www.lifeline.co.nz, call 0800 543 354 or text 4357 (HELP)
- Suicide Crisis Helpline: www.lifeline.org.nz/services/suicide-crisis-helpline, or call 0508 828 865 (0508 TAUTOKO)
Youth services:
- Youthline: Call 0800 376 633 or text 234
- What's Up: Call 0800 942 8787 (11am to 11pm) or webchat (11am to 10.30pm)
- Depression helpline: Call 0800 111 757 or text 4202 (available 24/7)
- Helpline: Need to talk? Call or text 1737
- Aoake te Rā (Bereaved by Suicide Service): Call 0800 000 053
For more information and support, talk to your local doctor, hauora, community mental health team, or counselling service.
The Mental Health Foundation has more helplines and service contacts - click here for information
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Kyotra. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,
a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. It's
no secret New Zealand is suffering a major mental health crisis.
Some people, including teens and children, often wait weeks to
(00:27):
see someone when they seek help. It's so dire. A
survey of those at the cold face of the crisis
describes a system that's under pressure, under resourced and under
delivering for New Zealanders. So is there any hope on
the horizon? With the Coalition government's edition of a specialized
mental health portfolio Today on the front Page, mental Health
(00:50):
Minister Matt Doocey is with us to discuss what moves
are being made to make sure there's help there when
we need it. Minister, we all know New Zealand has
something of a mental health crisis at the moment. Hey,
how bad is it?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Fair to say there's a lot of pressure at the
moment on our mental health system. We're seeing rising levels
of unmet need, more people reporting distress and when we
look at the sector itself, there's a growing number of
workforce vacancies. So I think largely as a country, we've
(01:30):
done very well creating a culture where people are facing
less stigma and discrimination. But I think what's happening now
as more people are choosing to be more open and
be more trusting and ask for help, sadly that support
is not there well.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
The Mental Health and Wellbeing Commissions found fifteen to twenty
four year olds report the highest level of psychological distress
of any age. Is that a real concern?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah, very much so, because when you look at mental health,
I mean what we should be doing is treating mental illness,
but also a parallel work stream of promoting better mental
health and wellbeing. And when we look at the life course,
it's just vital that we work with young people to
support them to be mentally well through education and skills
(02:25):
training so they can assist themselves with the ability to
manage their mental health and deal with everyday stresses. But
also for those who go on to develop lifelong and
enduring mental illness, the adolescent years are vitally important to
intervene earlier and engage those young people to ensure they
(02:46):
can get some timely support.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
And we know there's a growing number of teens and
children waiting weeks, if not months for the help that
they need. Is this good enough?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
No? No, quite, frankly is not good enough. Look at
the last government who made quite a big play on
mental health. They talked about the one point nine billion
that still today the sector hasn't seen. They've promised to
transform the sector. Yet the Order to General report that
was released a couple of months ago showed that waiting
(03:17):
times for young persons specialist services have actually gone backwards.
And for me, a large part of that is the
workforce vacancies. And even in that report, the Orders of
General stated that there just doesn't appear to be a
plan to grow the mental health and addiction workforce. So
we're focused on producing New Zealand's first independent and standalone
(03:40):
mental health and workforce plan that will be focused on
driving down vacancy rates in health New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
When should we expect to see that plan.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
I'm hoping to get that out in the next month.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
I remember Herald has reported on just one case. It's
Ryan Aiah Boyd, a thirteen year old girl who is
believed to have died after struggling with bully. Her aunt's
I remember wrote an open letter calling for change. What
would you say to those families in those situations who
feel that government really isn't doing enough.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
You know, my thoughts and prayers are with that individual
and family and friends. And as the Mental Health Minister,
I do meet quite regularly with people who have been
bereave by suicide, attempted suicide themselves, or been in the
mental health system over a number of years. And I
(04:31):
think what we need to ensure is we give people
timely access to support. And when we're talking about young people,
we know we have growing levels of unmet need. We
know the waiting lists are getting longer, and that's why
for this government, we want to pair up with the
NGL and community sector because they're a sector that has
(04:51):
the capacity to grow. We want to get more money
out of the beehive to the grassroots. So if you
look at one of the announcements we've made already is
the twenty four million dollars to gum Boot Friday. That's
an organization that has several hundred young people specific counselors
who can provide a level of support within twenty four hours,
(05:13):
and that investment will support an extra fifteen thousand young
people accessing that support. And I'm really keen for that
investment into gum Boot Friday to support young people, specifically
on waiting lists, because a young person on a weight
list is quite a red flag to potential risk. And
also if we can get in earlier, it stops their
(05:35):
mental health deteriorating further. So we're going to make sure
we focus on those wait lists.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
For this new money, we can provide even more services
and more diverse counselors than ever before. We will be
reporting every single cent every session. If they want to
report weekly, I will give you a report weekly, so
we ll be totally transparent.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
What do you make of the backlash from people questioning
why this one organization got such a large chunk of
cash while other grassroots agencies say have to go through
the proper funding channels.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Well, it was a coalition agreement between the three parties
of New Zealand First and Act and National to fund
gum Boot Friday to.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
The tune of twenty four million.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Though, yeah, it's six million dollars a year over four years,
isn't it. It shows the level of need to be
frank and it shows the immediacy that we need to respond.
Gumboot Friday has a number of young people specific mental
health counselors that can be deployed and to see people
(06:47):
within a matter of a day or two, and that's
what we want to fund. We make no bones about it.
We want to get the money out of the beehive
to the grass roots and scale up organizations that have
facity to deliver, and that's what gun Boot Friday can offer. Also,
recently we announce the ten million dollar Innovation Fund that
(07:08):
will pair up with other NGOs to co fund them
to scale up as well. So it shows the direction
of travel for this government. We're serious about it and
we're ready to back organizations who can scale up and deliver.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
What results has gun Boot Friday had that make it
worthy of such a huge injection of cash and do
they have the capacity to basically be the government's endorsed
charitable service at this point.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Well, what we're looking for within organizations is the ability
for them to scale up. When you look at gun
Boot Friday specifically, they have a large number of workforce
that they can deploy, and when you look at the
publicly funded mental health system, it is constrained, and part
of that constraint is the existing workforce in the mental
(07:56):
health system. So we want to back enngo and community
groups who can support the publicly funded mental health system
take some of the demand away from it. And when
you look at specifically Gumboot Friday, they can evidence a
social return on investment. And that is similar to our
Innovation Fund, where we're looking for NGOs and community organizations
(08:20):
to evidence a social return on investment that shows their
delivering and their effective.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
You've already mentioned Labour's one point nine billion dollar investment
in mental health? Did that make any difference at all?
And now we have mental health targets, right, will that
ensure that we actually start to see that bang we're
getting for our buck in the mental health space.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Well, what Labor did prove in the last two terms
was actually money isn't the sole answer and solution to
dealing with the issues in mental health. And to answer
your question when you said did it make a difference, well,
even the Independent Mental Health and Wellbeing Commissioned said they
couldn't find any evidence of that investment making a difference
(09:13):
and they actually called for a plan. So beggars belief
that a lot of money was promised, We're not sure
where it went and there was actually no plan and
what we want to do is ensure that when we
make investment into mental health, but into other areas as well,
that a government spends money on to ensure that we
(09:34):
a hold ourselves accountable. Is a government to where that
tax byer money has been invested into, but ensure we
get results. So look a part of my new role
of New Zealand's first Mental Health Minister and look to
be very candid. Just giving someone a job doesn't make
a difference. Nothing's changed because there's a new person in
(09:55):
a job. But clearly what I choose to do with
this role to how it helps support better mental health
is what I will be held to account over the
next few years. But part of my role is to
be responsible for the mental health and addiction ring fence
funding in New Zealand. That's a two point six billion
dollars spend every year and I want to ensure that
(10:17):
that's delivering. So last week with the Prime Minister Christopher Luxen,
we announced five targets that are focused on access eighty
percent of people to be seen in specialist services within
three weeks, eighty percent to be seen by primary mental
health services in one week, as well as committing to
(10:39):
train an extra five hundred mental health professionals a year
out of baseline funding and to focus on prevention and
early intervention through committing to spending twenty five percent of
that ring fence funding on prevention early intervention.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
We all know people are waiting weeks, if not months,
to see a counselor they're often no bed or no
facilities or nowhere for parents to turn to. We want
targets because it actually focuses our ministers and our government.
It also focuses very much our public service.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
In terms of those targets, will we get a good
look what will there be monthly stats? Quarterly?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Yeah, I think we'll start off with quarterly. I'm happy
to move to monthly if it shows that that will
further support performance and accountability for me. Looking at those targets,
there'll be a need in some areas because they're new
to set up the data capture, reporting and quality. But
(11:37):
ultimately what we want to see is a clear line
of sight around accountability and performance as well. So when
you look at the target of eighty percent of people
been seen within three weeks for specialist services from the
data we capture at the moment, which is definitely not complete.
(11:58):
We might be sitting around seventy five five percent, but
actually when you look at young people, we're probably sitting
closer to around sixty six percent, And not that we're
measuring it at the moment, but I'm sure if you
were to look at MARDI or maybe people living in
rural communities, that would be well below the benchmark of
eighty percent as well. So it gives us ability to
(12:20):
get visibility over a range of groups and priority groups
and groups of people who are on the wrong side
of mental health and suicide statistics to ensure that they
can access the support they need.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
And you mentioned staff for we know that staff vacancy
rates have doubled since twenty eighteen. What can actually be
done to get more workers in the mental health sector?
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Yeah, well, I think this is primarily one of the
key areas where the last government fell over on. I
think as a minister it might be the easier part
of announcing money, but the difficult part is turning that
investment into new services on the ground. And you can
announce money, but if you don't have the workforce to deploy,
those services will never open. In fact, last year there
(13:06):
was an impatient facility that closed down here in Canterbury
through lack of staffing, and even an adolescent mental health
service I visited in Wellington a few months ago had
a fifty percent workforce vacancy rate, so there's no surprise
people were stuck on waiting lists and unable to access
the support. So for me, it's twofold. We need to
(13:27):
look at our current training pipelines for mental health professionals.
So if you look at something like clinical psychology, the
advice I've got is we need around two hundred to
two hundred and fifty more clinical psychologists a year, but
currently our pipeline only trains fifty. But when you actually
dig into the data, what it also shows is about
(13:50):
four hundred people who graduate with undergraduate psychology degrees every
year in New Zealand, but when they miss out on
one of those fifty internship plays, they disappear from the sector.
So we want to do some new stuff as well.
I'm looking at a new registration of an associate psychology
role where we can look at giving those people a
(14:12):
new registration and a new route into the field, and
I think that's quite exciting.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Would that be kind of like becoming a teacherade or
something in the classroom.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Yeah, it's based on the UK model. It's been very
successful over there. I had the fortunate experience of working
for the NHS in London for over ten years and
fear to say quite a lot of comparable countries are
grappling with the same issues. So it would be for
someone to be coming in at an associate level to
(14:41):
have an agreed scope to acknowledge that where they are
at that point of time and their profession, and it
gives them an ability to train in their role as
well to maybe go on to be a clinical psychologist.
And I think what we want to do is make
sure that we open up the exhibit sting pipelines of
training we have in New Zealand, but actually think quite
(15:04):
differently about new registrations. Another area I'm queen keen to
expand is the peer support and lived experience workforce, hugely
underutilized in New Zealand. I've recently announced a one million
dollar fund to allow more people to get the level
for certification to achieve those roles, but also a new
(15:26):
service of peer support and lived experience workers in ED
departments across New Zealand to provide timely support as well.
So I think we've got to pull all the levers
and that comes back to this mental health and addiction
workforce plan that we have not had, and we will
produce that in the coming months.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Well, I mean, speaking of data, one in five New
Zealanders experience mental illness in their lifetime in prison. These
figures are significantly higher, more than nine out of TAN,
So that's ninety one percent of people in prison have
had a lifetime diagnosis of a mental health or substance
abuse disorder. That's shocking, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Yeah, significantly high rates, which I would probably say are
significantly under reported as well. There isn't consistent screening and
assessment tools used for our prisoners. Recently, the government's move
to change the settings to allow RAMAND prisoners because they
a growing population within our prisons and our correction facilities
(16:39):
at the moment, to access rehabilitation programs, including mental health
and addiction services. Before they were unable to do that
because they were on romand as well. But I fundamentally
believe it's right for if someone meets a threshold of
incarceration to keep the community. But it's actually also incumbent
(17:02):
of the government of the day to ensure that why
the person is in prison, we ensure that we can
support them to the best of our abilities with rehabilitation programs,
including mental health and addiction services, to ensure that when
they are released, they do reintegrate back into society and
they're not looking to re offend and come back into prison.
(17:24):
So a key part of this new role is New
Zealand's first Mental Health Minister is not only to manage
the two point six billion ring fence funding for mental
health and addictions, but to work together with my colleagues
around the cabinet table to develop in all of government strategies.
So what are we doing in education, what are we
doing in prisons, in housing and social services and the like,
(17:47):
to ensure that we're connecting up all the mental health
support across the government departments.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Yeah, so more does need to be done, hey, in prisons.
When it comes to mental health support, I think.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
There's a lot we can do. There's a growing area
of work now around neurodiversity as well, not specifically a
mental health condition, but I think with the ability now
to screen, assess and help people get better support, I
think it's the way forward because the government's committed on
(18:19):
reducing offending and also recidivism in crime, especially youth crime,
and I think mental health support and addiction support will
keep part of that.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Is your government committed to making it easier for people
to get diagnosed and treated for those neurodiversity conditions.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Yeah, We're possible. And I think it links back into
the conversation we've had around workforce and potentially looking at
the scope of practices for some of our workforce professions.
A good example is the work and in fairness it's
my colleague across Ile, Chloe Strawbrick from the Greens who's
leading a lot of this work and look, I want
(19:01):
to take a bipartisan approach to mental health.
Speaker 5 (19:04):
For kiwi's living with ADHD, including some of the most recognizable.
A diagnosis can be life changing, but hope is on
the horizon. Swarwick chairs Parliament's Cross party Mental Health Group
and says there is now a consensus on two critical changes.
Speaker 6 (19:17):
The ability for GPS to prescribe, which can happen in
a matter of months if pharmac prioritizes that and ministers
see to that. And the second is a review of
the special authority process which is currently a massive roadblock
that requires those with ADHD to go back to their
psychiatrists every two years to showcase that their brain has
in fact not dramatically altered misself.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Chloe from the Greens and the whistle Wall from Labor
at the time set up New Zealand Parliament's first cross
party Mental Health Group, and I really want to make
some enduring changes that will go past the three year
parliamentary cycle. And some of the work we're doing that
Chloe has been leading as well around ADHD is understanding
whether it needs to be a psychiatrist that signs off
(19:59):
the spe authority prescribing or some of the assessments. And
when we look at that and maybe start to think,
is there other medical professions that can pick some of
that work up to free up more capacity within psychiatry,
because part of their short at the moment with the
competing priorities is that someone who's perceived has been stable
(20:21):
but needing neurodiverse assessment might be not as prioritized as
someone in a mental health condition and crisis. Hence the
person looking for an ADHD assessment might have to wait
two years. And so I think that piece of work
is quite exciting where we look about who's currently delivering
(20:41):
that scope and where else that might sit. And I
think that will free up capacity in our workforce as well.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
And should there be a separate mental health option when
people call one one one? We know mental health call
outs are taking a huge chunk of police time and resource. Hey,
what's the solution here?
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Yeah? Well it's interesting because I've asked me a few
years ago, I would have had a slightly different answer.
And why I mean that is the last National government
in twenty seventeen announced a Mental Health Coresponse Team which
paired up police and mental health professionals, but sadly the
incoming Labor government in twenty eighteen canceled that. So we've
(21:20):
lost six years of work where we potentially could be
developing better models of response to mental health crisis. I
think mental health crisis is something that we need to
do a lot better in New Zealand. But the work
is becoming very interesting because what the data is showing
as we look in to the Triple one calls that
(21:42):
police are responding to, is there a number of calls
of people who are calling up around issues like loneliness, grief,
potentially financial issues, relationship issues, and they're very important issues
for the person, but not necessarily a call through one
(22:02):
one one that would trigger a police response or a
mental health crisis call out response. So look, I think
it's about time we looked at the dispatch center. I've
been quite open. I do think it's time we have
a fourth option where you ring up and say police, ambulance, fire,
or mental health. But then we need to look at
who would potentially respond to that call if it's a
(22:26):
threat to the individual or someone else. Could be a
police response, it could be paired up with mental health
in the co response teams, or it could be mental
health teams on their own, or another agency approach if
it's appropriate. And then from there, I think we also
need to think about where is the best place to
(22:47):
take that person. And I know there's some new work
evolving around the country about what's called crisis cafes where
people are taken to a crisis cafe manned by support
and lived experience workers. And there some work around the
country where parts of emergency departments are fitted out so
(23:07):
they're more appropriate for someone coming in crisis, so they're
not brightly lit. A lot of people with noisy as well.
So that piece of work is going to be three
to five years. I've got to report back with Mark Mitchell,
the Police Minister, in November to Cabinet to give an
update and a plan over the next few years how
we'll take that forward. Because I want to finish saying
(23:30):
how lucky we are to have the New Zealand Police
who respond to mental health crisis callouts, because as we've
seen in the UK, the Metropolitan Police have started to
stop responding to mental health crisis callouts and we don't
want to be in that position, so we need to
ensure we've got the workforce to respond.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
And lastly, minutes, so you've got quite a bit of
work ahead of you. There's two and a half years
until the next election and there's a lot to be done.
Like you mentioned, that is the possible ability of another
government coming in and scrapping things, right. Are you prepared
to work across Parliament on bipartisan deals that will make
sure that some of these plans will actually survive subsequent governments?
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Very much so. I'm a consensus politician. I look to
work and in ways that are enduring change. If that
requires me to compromise or concede at times. I'm prepared
to do that because what I want to ensure is
we do have long term change to address the mental
(24:36):
health issues in this country. One of the successes I
think in my role as a Mental Health Minister is
that when there is a change of government, however long
that takes, the incoming government looks at what change we
made with this new role and decides to continue with it.
And I am committed to taking a bipartisan approach. I've
(24:58):
already met with the Cross part Mental Health Group to
add my support to what they are doing. As the
new minister, I'm actually the first minister to meet with
that group. Is no labor minister meet with them in
the last two terms, and I'm committed to working with
them and whoever else wants to work collaboratively in mental
(25:21):
health within Parliament because that's where I think the change
will happen.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Thanks for joining us, Minister. That said, for this episode
of the Front Page, you can read more about today's
stories and extensive news coverage at enzat Herald dot co
dot z. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sells
with sound engineer Patti Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels subscribe to
(25:44):
the front page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,
and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
Kyotra. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,
a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. It's
no secret New Zealand is suffering a major mental health crisis.
Some people, including teens and children, often wait weeks to
(00:27):
see someone when they seek help. It's so dire. A
survey of those at the cold face of the crisis
describes a system that's under pressure, under resourced and under
delivering for New Zealanders. So is there any hope on
the horizon? With the Coalition government's edition of a specialized
mental health portfolio Today on the front Page, mental Health
(00:50):
Minister Matt Doocey is with us to discuss what moves
are being made to make sure there's help there when
we need it. Minister, we all know New Zealand has
something of a mental health crisis at the moment. Hey,
how bad is it?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Fair to say there's a lot of pressure at the
moment on our mental health system. We're seeing rising levels
of unmet need, more people reporting distress and when we
look at the sector itself, there's a growing number of
workforce vacancies. So I think largely as a country, we've
(01:30):
done very well creating a culture where people are facing
less stigma and discrimination. But I think what's happening now
as more people are choosing to be more open and
be more trusting and ask for help, sadly that support
is not there well.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
The Mental Health and Wellbeing Commissions found fifteen to twenty
four year olds report the highest level of psychological distress
of any age. Is that a real concern?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah, very much so, because when you look at mental health,
I mean what we should be doing is treating mental illness,
but also a parallel work stream of promoting better mental
health and wellbeing. And when we look at the life course,
it's just vital that we work with young people to
support them to be mentally well through education and skills
(02:25):
training so they can assist themselves with the ability to
manage their mental health and deal with everyday stresses. But
also for those who go on to develop lifelong and
enduring mental illness, the adolescent years are vitally important to
intervene earlier and engage those young people to ensure they
(02:46):
can get some timely support.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
And we know there's a growing number of teens and
children waiting weeks, if not months for the help that
they need. Is this good enough?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
No? No, quite, frankly is not good enough. Look at
the last government who made quite a big play on
mental health. They talked about the one point nine billion
that still today the sector hasn't seen. They've promised to
transform the sector. Yet the Order to General report that
was released a couple of months ago showed that waiting
(03:17):
times for young persons specialist services have actually gone backwards.
And for me, a large part of that is the
workforce vacancies. And even in that report, the Orders of
General stated that there just doesn't appear to be a
plan to grow the mental health and addiction workforce. So
we're focused on producing New Zealand's first independent and standalone
(03:40):
mental health and workforce plan that will be focused on
driving down vacancy rates in health New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
When should we expect to see that plan.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
I'm hoping to get that out in the next month.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
I remember Herald has reported on just one case. It's
Ryan Aiah Boyd, a thirteen year old girl who is
believed to have died after struggling with bully. Her aunt's
I remember wrote an open letter calling for change. What
would you say to those families in those situations who
feel that government really isn't doing enough.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
You know, my thoughts and prayers are with that individual
and family and friends. And as the Mental Health Minister,
I do meet quite regularly with people who have been
bereave by suicide, attempted suicide themselves, or been in the
mental health system over a number of years. And I
(04:31):
think what we need to ensure is we give people
timely access to support. And when we're talking about young people,
we know we have growing levels of unmet need. We
know the waiting lists are getting longer, and that's why
for this government, we want to pair up with the
NGL and community sector because they're a sector that has
(04:51):
the capacity to grow. We want to get more money
out of the beehive to the grassroots. So if you
look at one of the announcements we've made already is
the twenty four million dollars to gum Boot Friday. That's
an organization that has several hundred young people specific counselors
who can provide a level of support within twenty four hours,
(05:13):
and that investment will support an extra fifteen thousand young
people accessing that support. And I'm really keen for that
investment into gum Boot Friday to support young people, specifically
on waiting lists, because a young person on a weight
list is quite a red flag to potential risk. And
also if we can get in earlier, it stops their
(05:35):
mental health deteriorating further. So we're going to make sure
we focus on those wait lists.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
For this new money, we can provide even more services
and more diverse counselors than ever before. We will be
reporting every single cent every session. If they want to
report weekly, I will give you a report weekly, so
we ll be totally transparent.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
What do you make of the backlash from people questioning
why this one organization got such a large chunk of
cash while other grassroots agencies say have to go through
the proper funding channels.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Well, it was a coalition agreement between the three parties
of New Zealand First and Act and National to fund
gum Boot Friday to.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
The tune of twenty four million.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Though, yeah, it's six million dollars a year over four years,
isn't it. It shows the level of need to be
frank and it shows the immediacy that we need to respond.
Gumboot Friday has a number of young people specific mental
health counselors that can be deployed and to see people
(06:47):
within a matter of a day or two, and that's
what we want to fund. We make no bones about it.
We want to get the money out of the beehive
to the grass roots and scale up organizations that have
facity to deliver, and that's what gun Boot Friday can offer. Also,
recently we announce the ten million dollar Innovation Fund that
(07:08):
will pair up with other NGOs to co fund them
to scale up as well. So it shows the direction
of travel for this government. We're serious about it and
we're ready to back organizations who can scale up and deliver.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
What results has gun Boot Friday had that make it
worthy of such a huge injection of cash and do
they have the capacity to basically be the government's endorsed
charitable service at this point.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Well, what we're looking for within organizations is the ability
for them to scale up. When you look at gun
Boot Friday specifically, they have a large number of workforce
that they can deploy, and when you look at the
publicly funded mental health system, it is constrained, and part
of that constraint is the existing workforce in the mental
(07:56):
health system. So we want to back enngo and community
groups who can support the publicly funded mental health system
take some of the demand away from it. And when
you look at specifically Gumboot Friday, they can evidence a
social return on investment. And that is similar to our
Innovation Fund, where we're looking for NGOs and community organizations
(08:20):
to evidence a social return on investment that shows their
delivering and their effective.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
You've already mentioned Labour's one point nine billion dollar investment
in mental health? Did that make any difference at all?
And now we have mental health targets, right, will that
ensure that we actually start to see that bang we're
getting for our buck in the mental health space.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Well, what Labor did prove in the last two terms
was actually money isn't the sole answer and solution to
dealing with the issues in mental health. And to answer
your question when you said did it make a difference, well,
even the Independent Mental Health and Wellbeing Commissioned said they
couldn't find any evidence of that investment making a difference
(09:13):
and they actually called for a plan. So beggars belief
that a lot of money was promised, We're not sure
where it went and there was actually no plan and
what we want to do is ensure that when we
make investment into mental health, but into other areas as well,
that a government spends money on to ensure that we
(09:34):
a hold ourselves accountable. Is a government to where that
tax byer money has been invested into, but ensure we
get results. So look a part of my new role
of New Zealand's first Mental Health Minister and look to
be very candid. Just giving someone a job doesn't make
a difference. Nothing's changed because there's a new person in
(09:55):
a job. But clearly what I choose to do with
this role to how it helps support better mental health
is what I will be held to account over the
next few years. But part of my role is to
be responsible for the mental health and addiction ring fence
funding in New Zealand. That's a two point six billion
dollars spend every year and I want to ensure that
(10:17):
that's delivering. So last week with the Prime Minister Christopher Luxen,
we announced five targets that are focused on access eighty
percent of people to be seen in specialist services within
three weeks, eighty percent to be seen by primary mental
health services in one week, as well as committing to
(10:39):
train an extra five hundred mental health professionals a year
out of baseline funding and to focus on prevention and
early intervention through committing to spending twenty five percent of
that ring fence funding on prevention early intervention.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
We all know people are waiting weeks, if not months,
to see a counselor they're often no bed or no
facilities or nowhere for parents to turn to. We want
targets because it actually focuses our ministers and our government.
It also focuses very much our public service.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
In terms of those targets, will we get a good
look what will there be monthly stats? Quarterly?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Yeah, I think we'll start off with quarterly. I'm happy
to move to monthly if it shows that that will
further support performance and accountability for me. Looking at those targets,
there'll be a need in some areas because they're new
to set up the data capture, reporting and quality. But
(11:37):
ultimately what we want to see is a clear line
of sight around accountability and performance as well. So when
you look at the target of eighty percent of people
been seen within three weeks for specialist services from the
data we capture at the moment, which is definitely not complete.
(11:58):
We might be sitting around seventy five five percent, but
actually when you look at young people, we're probably sitting
closer to around sixty six percent, And not that we're
measuring it at the moment, but I'm sure if you
were to look at MARDI or maybe people living in
rural communities, that would be well below the benchmark of
eighty percent as well. So it gives us ability to
(12:20):
get visibility over a range of groups and priority groups
and groups of people who are on the wrong side
of mental health and suicide statistics to ensure that they
can access the support they need.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
And you mentioned staff for we know that staff vacancy
rates have doubled since twenty eighteen. What can actually be
done to get more workers in the mental health sector?
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Yeah, well, I think this is primarily one of the
key areas where the last government fell over on. I
think as a minister it might be the easier part
of announcing money, but the difficult part is turning that
investment into new services on the ground. And you can
announce money, but if you don't have the workforce to deploy,
those services will never open. In fact, last year there
(13:06):
was an impatient facility that closed down here in Canterbury
through lack of staffing, and even an adolescent mental health
service I visited in Wellington a few months ago had
a fifty percent workforce vacancy rate, so there's no surprise
people were stuck on waiting lists and unable to access
the support. So for me, it's twofold. We need to
(13:27):
look at our current training pipelines for mental health professionals.
So if you look at something like clinical psychology, the
advice I've got is we need around two hundred to
two hundred and fifty more clinical psychologists a year, but
currently our pipeline only trains fifty. But when you actually
dig into the data, what it also shows is about
(13:50):
four hundred people who graduate with undergraduate psychology degrees every
year in New Zealand, but when they miss out on
one of those fifty internship plays, they disappear from the sector.
So we want to do some new stuff as well.
I'm looking at a new registration of an associate psychology
role where we can look at giving those people a
(14:12):
new registration and a new route into the field, and
I think that's quite exciting.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Would that be kind of like becoming a teacherade or
something in the classroom.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Yeah, it's based on the UK model. It's been very
successful over there. I had the fortunate experience of working
for the NHS in London for over ten years and
fear to say quite a lot of comparable countries are
grappling with the same issues. So it would be for
someone to be coming in at an associate level to
(14:41):
have an agreed scope to acknowledge that where they are
at that point of time and their profession, and it
gives them an ability to train in their role as
well to maybe go on to be a clinical psychologist.
And I think what we want to do is make
sure that we open up the exhibit sting pipelines of
training we have in New Zealand, but actually think quite
(15:04):
differently about new registrations. Another area I'm queen keen to
expand is the peer support and lived experience workforce, hugely
underutilized in New Zealand. I've recently announced a one million
dollar fund to allow more people to get the level
for certification to achieve those roles, but also a new
(15:26):
service of peer support and lived experience workers in ED
departments across New Zealand to provide timely support as well.
So I think we've got to pull all the levers
and that comes back to this mental health and addiction
workforce plan that we have not had, and we will
produce that in the coming months.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Well, I mean, speaking of data, one in five New
Zealanders experience mental illness in their lifetime in prison. These
figures are significantly higher, more than nine out of TAN,
So that's ninety one percent of people in prison have
had a lifetime diagnosis of a mental health or substance
abuse disorder. That's shocking, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Yeah, significantly high rates, which I would probably say are
significantly under reported as well. There isn't consistent screening and
assessment tools used for our prisoners. Recently, the government's move
to change the settings to allow RAMAND prisoners because they
a growing population within our prisons and our correction facilities
(16:39):
at the moment, to access rehabilitation programs, including mental health
and addiction services. Before they were unable to do that
because they were on romand as well. But I fundamentally
believe it's right for if someone meets a threshold of
incarceration to keep the community. But it's actually also incumbent
(17:02):
of the government of the day to ensure that why
the person is in prison, we ensure that we can
support them to the best of our abilities with rehabilitation programs,
including mental health and addiction services, to ensure that when
they are released, they do reintegrate back into society and
they're not looking to re offend and come back into prison.
(17:24):
So a key part of this new role is New
Zealand's first Mental Health Minister is not only to manage
the two point six billion ring fence funding for mental
health and addictions, but to work together with my colleagues
around the cabinet table to develop in all of government strategies.
So what are we doing in education, what are we
doing in prisons, in housing and social services and the like,
(17:47):
to ensure that we're connecting up all the mental health
support across the government departments.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Yeah, so more does need to be done, hey, in prisons.
When it comes to mental health support, I think.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
There's a lot we can do. There's a growing area
of work now around neurodiversity as well, not specifically a
mental health condition, but I think with the ability now
to screen, assess and help people get better support, I
think it's the way forward because the government's committed on
(18:19):
reducing offending and also recidivism in crime, especially youth crime,
and I think mental health support and addiction support will
keep part of that.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Is your government committed to making it easier for people
to get diagnosed and treated for those neurodiversity conditions.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Yeah, We're possible. And I think it links back into
the conversation we've had around workforce and potentially looking at
the scope of practices for some of our workforce professions.
A good example is the work and in fairness it's
my colleague across Ile, Chloe Strawbrick from the Greens who's
leading a lot of this work and look, I want
(19:01):
to take a bipartisan approach to mental health.
Speaker 5 (19:04):
For kiwi's living with ADHD, including some of the most recognizable.
A diagnosis can be life changing, but hope is on
the horizon. Swarwick chairs Parliament's Cross party Mental Health Group
and says there is now a consensus on two critical changes.
Speaker 6 (19:17):
The ability for GPS to prescribe, which can happen in
a matter of months if pharmac prioritizes that and ministers
see to that. And the second is a review of
the special authority process which is currently a massive roadblock
that requires those with ADHD to go back to their
psychiatrists every two years to showcase that their brain has
in fact not dramatically altered misself.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Chloe from the Greens and the whistle Wall from Labor
at the time set up New Zealand Parliament's first cross
party Mental Health Group, and I really want to make
some enduring changes that will go past the three year
parliamentary cycle. And some of the work we're doing that
Chloe has been leading as well around ADHD is understanding
whether it needs to be a psychiatrist that signs off
(19:59):
the spe authority prescribing or some of the assessments. And
when we look at that and maybe start to think,
is there other medical professions that can pick some of
that work up to free up more capacity within psychiatry,
because part of their short at the moment with the
competing priorities is that someone who's perceived has been stable
(20:21):
but needing neurodiverse assessment might be not as prioritized as
someone in a mental health condition and crisis. Hence the
person looking for an ADHD assessment might have to wait
two years. And so I think that piece of work
is quite exciting where we look about who's currently delivering
(20:41):
that scope and where else that might sit. And I
think that will free up capacity in our workforce as well.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
And should there be a separate mental health option when
people call one one one? We know mental health call
outs are taking a huge chunk of police time and resource. Hey,
what's the solution here?
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Yeah? Well it's interesting because I've asked me a few
years ago, I would have had a slightly different answer.
And why I mean that is the last National government
in twenty seventeen announced a Mental Health Coresponse Team which
paired up police and mental health professionals, but sadly the
incoming Labor government in twenty eighteen canceled that. So we've
(21:20):
lost six years of work where we potentially could be
developing better models of response to mental health crisis. I
think mental health crisis is something that we need to
do a lot better in New Zealand. But the work
is becoming very interesting because what the data is showing
as we look in to the Triple one calls that
(21:42):
police are responding to, is there a number of calls
of people who are calling up around issues like loneliness, grief,
potentially financial issues, relationship issues, and they're very important issues
for the person, but not necessarily a call through one
(22:02):
one one that would trigger a police response or a
mental health crisis call out response. So look, I think
it's about time we looked at the dispatch center. I've
been quite open. I do think it's time we have
a fourth option where you ring up and say police, ambulance, fire,
or mental health. But then we need to look at
who would potentially respond to that call if it's a
(22:26):
threat to the individual or someone else. Could be a
police response, it could be paired up with mental health
in the co response teams, or it could be mental
health teams on their own, or another agency approach if
it's appropriate. And then from there, I think we also
need to think about where is the best place to
(22:47):
take that person. And I know there's some new work
evolving around the country about what's called crisis cafes where
people are taken to a crisis cafe manned by support
and lived experience workers. And there some work around the
country where parts of emergency departments are fitted out so
(23:07):
they're more appropriate for someone coming in crisis, so they're
not brightly lit. A lot of people with noisy as well.
So that piece of work is going to be three
to five years. I've got to report back with Mark Mitchell,
the Police Minister, in November to Cabinet to give an
update and a plan over the next few years how
we'll take that forward. Because I want to finish saying
(23:30):
how lucky we are to have the New Zealand Police
who respond to mental health crisis callouts, because as we've
seen in the UK, the Metropolitan Police have started to
stop responding to mental health crisis callouts and we don't
want to be in that position, so we need to
ensure we've got the workforce to respond.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
And lastly, minutes, so you've got quite a bit of
work ahead of you. There's two and a half years
until the next election and there's a lot to be done.
Like you mentioned, that is the possible ability of another
government coming in and scrapping things, right. Are you prepared
to work across Parliament on bipartisan deals that will make
sure that some of these plans will actually survive subsequent governments?
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Very much so. I'm a consensus politician. I look to
work and in ways that are enduring change. If that
requires me to compromise or concede at times. I'm prepared
to do that because what I want to ensure is
we do have long term change to address the mental
(24:36):
health issues in this country. One of the successes I
think in my role as a Mental Health Minister is
that when there is a change of government, however long
that takes, the incoming government looks at what change we
made with this new role and decides to continue with it.
And I am committed to taking a bipartisan approach. I've
(24:58):
already met with the Cross part Mental Health Group to
add my support to what they are doing. As the
new minister, I'm actually the first minister to meet with
that group. Is no labor minister meet with them in
the last two terms, and I'm committed to working with
them and whoever else wants to work collaboratively in mental
(25:21):
health within Parliament because that's where I think the change
will happen.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Thanks for joining us, Minister. That said, for this episode
of the Front Page, you can read more about today's
stories and extensive news coverage at enzat Herald dot co
dot z. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sells
with sound engineer Patti Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels subscribe to
(25:44):
the front page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,
and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
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