August 13, 2024 • 19 mins
Concerns have been raised on opposite ends of the planet this week on foreign interference from Iran.
Donald Trump’s election campaign has claimed that Iran has hacked its internal messages, leaking election campaign documents to US media.
At the same time, Austrlaia’s spy boss has claimed that Iran is one of ‘at least three of four’ countries involved in foreign interference.
This may seem like an issue happening beyond our shores, but academics and officials have been warning for years that foreign interference is happening here.
Today on The Front Page, University of Otago Professor of Politics Robert Patman joins us to discuss how worried New Zealand should be.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Sound Engineer: Paddy Fox
Producer: Ethan Sills
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Cielda.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Concerns have
been raised on opposite ends of the planet this week
on foreign interference from Iran. Donald Trump's election campaign has
claimed that Iran has hacked its internal messages, leaking election
(00:30):
campaign documents to US media. At the same time, Australia's
spyboss has claimed that Iran is one of at least
three or four countries involved in foreign interference. This may
seem like an issue happening beyond US shores, but academics
and officials have been warning for years that foreign interference
is happening here. Today on the front Page, University of
(00:53):
Otago Professor of Politics Robert Patman joins us to discuss
how worried New Zealand should be. Robert, what do you
make of Australia coming out and stating bluntly that multiple
countries are involved in foreign interference there?
Speaker 1 (01:10):
I can't be too shocked by that, because we have
to be honest about this. Many countries spy on each other,
including countries which are friendly with each other. That was
certainly the case during the Cold war, and it's certainly
the case in the post Cold War era. And in
a sense, you know, when we talk about spying, we're
really talking about a form of foreign interference. So what
(01:33):
is foreign interference? It really refers to a situation where
an external state departs from the normal patterns of relations
and attempts to impose its will directly or indirectly within
a nation which is often seen as being weaker, in
order to achieve some diplomatic, political, moral, or strategic objectives.
So that, in a nutshell, is what foreign interference is,
(01:55):
and I'm afraid it goes on quite regularly in international relations.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, there's spy agency said that diaspora communities are being
threatened and intimidated. First off, what are those communities? What
does that mean? And why do you think they're being targeted?
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Diaspora communities refers to those communities located, for example, in
New Zealand. They may be Chinese, they may be Iranian,
which there are attempts to influence them which go beyond
normal diplomatic channels by outside interested And in the two
examples I've given authoritarian states which are China and Iran,
(02:34):
And certainly there's been some concern expressed by the New
Zealand sis that China is one of the countries which
is trying to influence communities of Chinese origin in this country.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Director General of Security of Australia Mike Burgess said, and
I quote some of them would surprise you, and some
of them are also our friends.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Spy Chief Mike Burgess has worn three or four friendly
nations have been involved in foreign interference in Australia. The
AZO Director General claims they're meddling in diaspora communities, which
are ethnic groups who no longer live in their home country.
Iran is involved, but the other nations have not been named.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
What do you make of that?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
I think Mike Burgess is referring to the fact that
spying comes from many different quarters, and referring to the
fact that in a sense, we shouldn't be surprised that
authoritarian states, which may have good relations with liberal democracies,
nevertheless result to what we would call spying or foreign interference.
The reason being is that for an authoritarian state, if
(03:43):
we put ourselves in their shoes, they haven't really got
an attractive political model. That is to say, they can't
exert influence through legitimate means, no one's really queuing up
to emulate the one party state in New Zealand. Few
New Zealand, whatever their qualms about our democracy, see China's
(04:04):
one party state or Russia's Putin regime as attractive alternatives,
and the same goes for the clerical regime in Iran.
So given that reality that many authoritarian states are short
of tools to influence opinion legitimately, they often resort to
covert means. And one way of, if you like, trying
(04:28):
to influence societies is through despora communities, and that certainly
is the case I think. Mike Burgess also referred to
the fact that friendly countries or countries which share our
political values, also engage in foreign interference. One of the
most I suppose important examples in New Zealand's history was
(04:48):
the case when two French intelligence agents in nineteen eighty
five were responsible for sinking the Greenpeace ship the Rainbow Warrior,
at the port of Auckland, which was going to pot
in a protest against a planned French nuclear deal at Morella,
and in the process a photographer was killed on the ship.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
The second explosion trapped Fernando Perrier. You drown. At first,
nobody was sure what had caused the huge blasts, nor
if anyone was missing. By dawn, police have proof the
explosions were no accident, and New Zealand's first case of
terrorism quickly becomes its biggest ever inquiry.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
President Mitterrand's government was subsequently obliged to publicly apologize for
this act of state sponsored terrorism and paid reparations to
New Zealand and the family of the photographer killed, as
well as Greenpeace. So you can get if you like,
foreign interference, spying, covert activities from friends as well as
(05:50):
countries which we may be more suspicious of, which don't
share our political values.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Now Australia is obviously our closest neighbor, How likely is
it that being targeted as well?
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Now that way, I think.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
That's tiny lightly given the intensification of superpower rivalry involving
China and the United States, which has really significantly increased
in the last decade, and both China and the United
States are hoping to influence Australia and New Zealand indirections
that they see as good outcomes. What is more, one
(06:25):
of the reasons New Zealand, as well as Australia have
become targets is because of our geographical location in the
Indo Pacific region. The Indo Pacific has emerged as the
most dynamic region in the world and a major driver
of global politics. Why do we say that, Because the
Indo Pacific, our neighborhood, contains more than fifty percent of
(06:46):
the world's population and is home to some of the
world's fastest growing economies, including China, Vietnam and India. So
in a sense, our location has become, if you like,
the center of gravity and glowelobal politics. And of course
it's a target for a country like China, which is
located within the Indo Pacific, and also the United States,
(07:09):
which has a strong Pacific connection. Both of these countries
want to present themselves as the political model for the
rest of the world to follow, and naturally they're deeply
engaged in trying to influence that region. I think there's
another factor which is probably distinctive to New Zealand. It's
not just out surrounding location which makes New Zealand a target.
(07:30):
I think New Zealand's international profile. Chelsea has significantly increased
in the last ten years. The response of the Jasindra
Duan government to the twenty nineteen christ Church terrotrocity, and
also the way the government effectively handled the COVID nineteen pandemic.
I think captured international attention and certainly I think change
(07:53):
international perceptions to some degree of New Zealand increasingly. Although
we often see ourselves as a small country or a
small state, I think others often see New Zealand as
a minor power, a country which is relatively small or
modest in size, but nevertheless quite influential internationally and often
seen as a good international citizen. That in turn, the
(08:15):
fact that New Zine's profile has grown will also be
if you're like a source of attraction for ambitious outside power.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
So being friends with the New Zealand being friends with
us will get you a bit better pr on the
world map.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Being friends with US is seen as a potentially positive thing.
This country has very close people to people relations with
the Pacific Island States, and that's a region which has
also been subject to increasing geopolitical rivalry between China, New
Zealand's largest trading partner, and the United States and its allies.
So in a sense, New Zealand's connections, particularly its close
(09:02):
connections with the Pacific Island states also mean that it's
a target. So, just to recap, New Zealand has grown
in terms of its international profile and reputation, but in addition,
as rivalry intensifies around the Pacific Island States between the
United States and China, New Zealand in their eyes, becomes
more important.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
A report last year pointed the finger at China for
foreign interference here.
Speaker 5 (09:29):
It's prompted calls for an inquiry from a group of
MPs from all sides of Parliament called the inter Parliamentary
Alliance on China. In a letter to the Foreign Affairs
and Trades Select Committee, the group wrote the Committee will
be aware of recent reports where serious allegations of kidnap,
assault and harassment were raised. There has been the widely
reported hacking of Parliament's own computer systems, and several MPs
(09:54):
and an academic also target it.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
When we are so alive, mined with China often framed
as a detriment to us. Why would they be trying
to interfere? Is it because of our position in the
Indo Pacific?
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yes, I'm not sure we're aligned with China. China's our
biggest trade partner in economic terms, it's the number one
destination for our exports. But we're not politically aligned with China,
and we are not prepared for economic reasons to dumb
down our commitment to democracy or human rights. So in
a sense, there are limits to how politically close the
(10:30):
two countries can become. We have a very different worldview
from China and a very different political system. So I mean,
I think it's an important point to establish, why would
China seek to if you influence what has been a
close trading partner for it For the reasons we've gone through,
China's very interested in the Pacific Island States and would like,
(10:53):
I think, to influence the direction of New Zealand's policy.
And also, since twenty twenty one, since the formation of
an Enhanced Security partnership called ORCUS, which involves the United States,
the UK and Australia, China has become, in its own words,
increasingly gravely concerned. These words that were used by the
(11:14):
Chinese ambassador to this country about New Zeine's potential for
joining what's called Pillar two of ORCUS. I should explain
that this enhanced security arrangement between three English speaking countries,
we're not a member of it at the moment, but
we're considering becoming an associate member or a partial member.
And it consists of two key elements. One is the
(11:38):
transfer of nuclear power submarines to Australia. The second key element,
which we're interested in possibly joining, we haven't made a
definite decision yet, is the component, which involves sharing state
of the art defense technology. China is very keen or
is it indicated it does not want New Zealand to
(11:59):
join the Aucus arrangement? Why? Because AUCUS is primarily designed
to deter China and to contain China, and so China
quite naturally would rather that New Zealand doesn't join it.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
There are also reports that Iran and Russia are interfering here.
Is that perhaps not surprising given the tensions around the world.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
It's not surprising given the fact that New Zealand, if
you take the case of Russia, New Zealand has been
very clear in its support for the Ukrainian government's attempt
to reverse the illegal invasion of Ukraine by Russia in
February twenty twenty two. Now that attempt at annexation has
(12:42):
not yet succeeded, Russia controls about twenty percent of the
territory of Ukraine, which is completely illegal under international law,
and New Zealand quite rightly has a big stake in
doing its best to ensure that Ukraine is successful in
defeating this attempted invasion of its country. After all, we
trade with more than one hundred countries around the world.
(13:03):
We depend on what's called a rules based international order.
That is, we like international relations to be done according
to established rules, laws and norms rather than being sort
of free for all based on power. So we have
a big state and that would mean in turn that
Russia may have an incentive to engage in interference to
(13:24):
try to influence things in this country. With respect to Iran,
we are one of the countries that is engaged. I
think we sent a deployment of six NZDF personnel there
are all intelligence officers. The decision was made in January
of this year to participate in a US led coalition
(13:45):
which is seeking to counter the illegal tax on civilian
shipping in the Red Sea by Hooti rebels which are
aligned to Iran. So from Iran's point of view, that
may be a reason that they've become discontented with the
direction of New Zealand's foreign policy, it may be seen
(14:05):
as contrary or aligned in a way which is seen
as potentially provocative to Iranian decision makers. So sometimes foreign
interference happens anyway, even between friendly countries, and sometimes it's
motivated by trying to influence or change the direction of
a country's foreign policy.
Speaker 6 (14:27):
We're sending our defense force personnel following a request.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
We were asked by our American partners whether we were
consider sending us some support there that who.
Speaker 6 (14:36):
They attacks are in response to the ongoing war and Gaza.
But our Prime Minister doesn't believe our military action against
the Huthies should be LinkedIn anyways the atrocities in Gaza.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
I have to say to you, I think you are
absolutely wrong to conflate those two issues.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Do you think New Zealand is capable of combating interference?
Speaker 4 (14:57):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yes, I mean, you know, we've got to keep this
in perspective in the sense you know, New Zealand has
many strengths. It's got an open, pretty honest, transparent liberal democracy.
We are consistently ranked in the top three of the
world as being the most honest countries in the world
according to Transparency International and that of course makes us
(15:17):
slightly vulnerable to interference by authoritarian states which don't hesitate,
of course, to use the freedoms of this country to
project their interest when we cannot do the same in
their societies. So it's a sort of one way advantage
which they seek to exploit, and they certainly get involved
in our social filia. But there are ways in which
(15:39):
New Zealand can, if you like, enhance its situation. I
think first of all, New Zealand needs to clearly signal
that it's going to end it's under investment in the
what I call the defense sector of this country. On average,
in the last two decades we spent about one percent
of GDP on defense and intelligence. I think that needs
(16:01):
to be boosted to about one point seven percent, and
it needs to be done quite quickly. That would be
a statement of intent that we're not only a liberal
tolerance society, but we're quite prepared to invest to ensure
that it remains that way. I think also there are
other things we can do through diplomacy that helps to
(16:22):
make us, if you're like, less vulnerable to foreign interference.
We've already mentioned one which the government has been doing,
which is recognizing the strategic linkage between helping defeat Putin's
illegal invasion of Ukraine and also deterring Chinese assertiveness in
the Indo Pacific. See, there is a strategic connection there
(16:42):
which many people miss. Many people look at the Battle
of Ukraine and say, ah, it's so far away from us.
We really empathize with the Ukrainians, but it's too far
away from us. Actually, two of the key players in
the Ukraine War which are tacitly indirectly helping Russia well
in our neighborhood Indo Pacific. One is China, which is
(17:03):
providing indirect assistance to Russia, and the second is India,
another country we want to free trade with. Now, if
we want to send a clear message to both China
and India for their ambiguity and indeed support for the
Putin's regimes invasion of Ukraine, then we need to do
what we can to support Ukraine. That sends a clear message.
(17:25):
I mean, make no mistake about it. If Putin fails
in Ukraine, and I don't think that can be ruled out,
that will register quite significantly in Beijing, and it will
send the message. I think that China will have to
be much less assertive on the international stage, particularly in
relation to Taiwan, because the country which has tacitly supported
(17:46):
has failed through the If you like the assertion of power,
and I think it's also important that New Zealand sends
a message to allies which are undermining the fabric of
the international rules based order. It's important, for example, that
New Zealand speak out when allies like the United States
are complicited in the undermining of international law in barbaric
(18:09):
conflicts such as in Gaza, where close to forty thousand
Palestinians have died, and at least fifteen thousand of those
Palestinians have been children, which by definition have nothing to
do with the original Hamas attack on the seventh of
October which prompted this massive and disproportionate response from Israel.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Thanks for joining us, Robert. That's it for this episode
of the Front Page. You can read more about today's
stories and extensive news coverage at enzet Herald dot co
dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills
with sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to
(18:52):
the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your
podcasts and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
Cielda.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Concerns have
been raised on opposite ends of the planet this week
on foreign interference from Iran. Donald Trump's election campaign has
claimed that Iran has hacked its internal messages, leaking election
(00:30):
campaign documents to US media. At the same time, Australia's
spyboss has claimed that Iran is one of at least
three or four countries involved in foreign interference. This may
seem like an issue happening beyond US shores, but academics
and officials have been warning for years that foreign interference
is happening here. Today on the front Page, University of
(00:53):
Otago Professor of Politics Robert Patman joins us to discuss
how worried New Zealand should be. Robert, what do you
make of Australia coming out and stating bluntly that multiple
countries are involved in foreign interference there?
Speaker 1 (01:10):
I can't be too shocked by that, because we have
to be honest about this. Many countries spy on each other,
including countries which are friendly with each other. That was
certainly the case during the Cold war, and it's certainly
the case in the post Cold War era. And in
a sense, you know, when we talk about spying, we're
really talking about a form of foreign interference. So what
(01:33):
is foreign interference? It really refers to a situation where
an external state departs from the normal patterns of relations
and attempts to impose its will directly or indirectly within
a nation which is often seen as being weaker, in
order to achieve some diplomatic, political, moral, or strategic objectives.
So that, in a nutshell, is what foreign interference is,
(01:55):
and I'm afraid it goes on quite regularly in international relations.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, there's spy agency said that diaspora communities are being
threatened and intimidated. First off, what are those communities? What
does that mean? And why do you think they're being targeted?
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Diaspora communities refers to those communities located, for example, in
New Zealand. They may be Chinese, they may be Iranian,
which there are attempts to influence them which go beyond
normal diplomatic channels by outside interested And in the two
examples I've given authoritarian states which are China and Iran,
(02:34):
And certainly there's been some concern expressed by the New
Zealand sis that China is one of the countries which
is trying to influence communities of Chinese origin in this country.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Director General of Security of Australia Mike Burgess said, and
I quote some of them would surprise you, and some
of them are also our friends.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Spy Chief Mike Burgess has worn three or four friendly
nations have been involved in foreign interference in Australia. The
AZO Director General claims they're meddling in diaspora communities, which
are ethnic groups who no longer live in their home country.
Iran is involved, but the other nations have not been named.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
What do you make of that?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
I think Mike Burgess is referring to the fact that
spying comes from many different quarters, and referring to the
fact that in a sense, we shouldn't be surprised that
authoritarian states, which may have good relations with liberal democracies,
nevertheless result to what we would call spying or foreign interference.
The reason being is that for an authoritarian state, if
(03:43):
we put ourselves in their shoes, they haven't really got
an attractive political model. That is to say, they can't
exert influence through legitimate means, no one's really queuing up
to emulate the one party state in New Zealand. Few
New Zealand, whatever their qualms about our democracy, see China's
(04:04):
one party state or Russia's Putin regime as attractive alternatives,
and the same goes for the clerical regime in Iran.
So given that reality that many authoritarian states are short
of tools to influence opinion legitimately, they often resort to
covert means. And one way of, if you like, trying
(04:28):
to influence societies is through despora communities, and that certainly
is the case I think. Mike Burgess also referred to
the fact that friendly countries or countries which share our
political values, also engage in foreign interference. One of the
most I suppose important examples in New Zealand's history was
(04:48):
the case when two French intelligence agents in nineteen eighty
five were responsible for sinking the Greenpeace ship the Rainbow Warrior,
at the port of Auckland, which was going to pot
in a protest against a planned French nuclear deal at Morella,
and in the process a photographer was killed on the ship.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
The second explosion trapped Fernando Perrier. You drown. At first,
nobody was sure what had caused the huge blasts, nor
if anyone was missing. By dawn, police have proof the
explosions were no accident, and New Zealand's first case of
terrorism quickly becomes its biggest ever inquiry.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
President Mitterrand's government was subsequently obliged to publicly apologize for
this act of state sponsored terrorism and paid reparations to
New Zealand and the family of the photographer killed, as
well as Greenpeace. So you can get if you like,
foreign interference, spying, covert activities from friends as well as
(05:50):
countries which we may be more suspicious of, which don't
share our political values.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Now Australia is obviously our closest neighbor, How likely is
it that being targeted as well?
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Now that way, I think.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
That's tiny lightly given the intensification of superpower rivalry involving
China and the United States, which has really significantly increased
in the last decade, and both China and the United
States are hoping to influence Australia and New Zealand indirections
that they see as good outcomes. What is more, one
(06:25):
of the reasons New Zealand, as well as Australia have
become targets is because of our geographical location in the
Indo Pacific region. The Indo Pacific has emerged as the
most dynamic region in the world and a major driver
of global politics. Why do we say that, Because the
Indo Pacific, our neighborhood, contains more than fifty percent of
(06:46):
the world's population and is home to some of the
world's fastest growing economies, including China, Vietnam and India. So
in a sense, our location has become, if you like,
the center of gravity and glowelobal politics. And of course
it's a target for a country like China, which is
located within the Indo Pacific, and also the United States,
(07:09):
which has a strong Pacific connection. Both of these countries
want to present themselves as the political model for the
rest of the world to follow, and naturally they're deeply
engaged in trying to influence that region. I think there's
another factor which is probably distinctive to New Zealand. It's
not just out surrounding location which makes New Zealand a target.
(07:30):
I think New Zealand's international profile. Chelsea has significantly increased
in the last ten years. The response of the Jasindra
Duan government to the twenty nineteen christ Church terrotrocity, and
also the way the government effectively handled the COVID nineteen pandemic.
I think captured international attention and certainly I think change
(07:53):
international perceptions to some degree of New Zealand increasingly. Although
we often see ourselves as a small country or a
small state, I think others often see New Zealand as
a minor power, a country which is relatively small or
modest in size, but nevertheless quite influential internationally and often
seen as a good international citizen. That in turn, the
(08:15):
fact that New Zine's profile has grown will also be
if you're like a source of attraction for ambitious outside power.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
So being friends with the New Zealand being friends with
us will get you a bit better pr on the
world map.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Being friends with US is seen as a potentially positive thing.
This country has very close people to people relations with
the Pacific Island States, and that's a region which has
also been subject to increasing geopolitical rivalry between China, New
Zealand's largest trading partner, and the United States and its allies.
So in a sense, New Zealand's connections, particularly its close
(09:02):
connections with the Pacific Island states also mean that it's
a target. So, just to recap, New Zealand has grown
in terms of its international profile and reputation, but in addition,
as rivalry intensifies around the Pacific Island States between the
United States and China, New Zealand in their eyes, becomes
more important.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
A report last year pointed the finger at China for
foreign interference here.
Speaker 5 (09:29):
It's prompted calls for an inquiry from a group of
MPs from all sides of Parliament called the inter Parliamentary
Alliance on China. In a letter to the Foreign Affairs
and Trades Select Committee, the group wrote the Committee will
be aware of recent reports where serious allegations of kidnap,
assault and harassment were raised. There has been the widely
reported hacking of Parliament's own computer systems, and several MPs
(09:54):
and an academic also target it.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
When we are so alive, mined with China often framed
as a detriment to us. Why would they be trying
to interfere? Is it because of our position in the
Indo Pacific?
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yes, I'm not sure we're aligned with China. China's our
biggest trade partner in economic terms, it's the number one
destination for our exports. But we're not politically aligned with China,
and we are not prepared for economic reasons to dumb
down our commitment to democracy or human rights. So in
a sense, there are limits to how politically close the
(10:30):
two countries can become. We have a very different worldview
from China and a very different political system. So I mean,
I think it's an important point to establish, why would
China seek to if you influence what has been a
close trading partner for it For the reasons we've gone through,
China's very interested in the Pacific Island States and would like,
(10:53):
I think, to influence the direction of New Zealand's policy.
And also, since twenty twenty one, since the formation of
an Enhanced Security partnership called ORCUS, which involves the United States,
the UK and Australia, China has become, in its own words,
increasingly gravely concerned. These words that were used by the
(11:14):
Chinese ambassador to this country about New Zeine's potential for
joining what's called Pillar two of ORCUS. I should explain
that this enhanced security arrangement between three English speaking countries,
we're not a member of it at the moment, but
we're considering becoming an associate member or a partial member.
And it consists of two key elements. One is the
(11:38):
transfer of nuclear power submarines to Australia. The second key element,
which we're interested in possibly joining, we haven't made a
definite decision yet, is the component, which involves sharing state
of the art defense technology. China is very keen or
is it indicated it does not want New Zealand to
(11:59):
join the Aucus arrangement? Why? Because AUCUS is primarily designed
to deter China and to contain China, and so China
quite naturally would rather that New Zealand doesn't join it.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
There are also reports that Iran and Russia are interfering here.
Is that perhaps not surprising given the tensions around the world.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
It's not surprising given the fact that New Zealand, if
you take the case of Russia, New Zealand has been
very clear in its support for the Ukrainian government's attempt
to reverse the illegal invasion of Ukraine by Russia in
February twenty twenty two. Now that attempt at annexation has
(12:42):
not yet succeeded, Russia controls about twenty percent of the
territory of Ukraine, which is completely illegal under international law,
and New Zealand quite rightly has a big stake in
doing its best to ensure that Ukraine is successful in
defeating this attempted invasion of its country. After all, we
trade with more than one hundred countries around the world.
(13:03):
We depend on what's called a rules based international order.
That is, we like international relations to be done according
to established rules, laws and norms rather than being sort
of free for all based on power. So we have
a big state and that would mean in turn that
Russia may have an incentive to engage in interference to
(13:24):
try to influence things in this country. With respect to Iran,
we are one of the countries that is engaged. I
think we sent a deployment of six NZDF personnel there
are all intelligence officers. The decision was made in January
of this year to participate in a US led coalition
(13:45):
which is seeking to counter the illegal tax on civilian
shipping in the Red Sea by Hooti rebels which are
aligned to Iran. So from Iran's point of view, that
may be a reason that they've become discontented with the
direction of New Zealand's foreign policy, it may be seen
(14:05):
as contrary or aligned in a way which is seen
as potentially provocative to Iranian decision makers. So sometimes foreign
interference happens anyway, even between friendly countries, and sometimes it's
motivated by trying to influence or change the direction of
a country's foreign policy.
Speaker 6 (14:27):
We're sending our defense force personnel following a request.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
We were asked by our American partners whether we were
consider sending us some support there that who.
Speaker 6 (14:36):
They attacks are in response to the ongoing war and Gaza.
But our Prime Minister doesn't believe our military action against
the Huthies should be LinkedIn anyways the atrocities in Gaza.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
I have to say to you, I think you are
absolutely wrong to conflate those two issues.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Do you think New Zealand is capable of combating interference?
Speaker 4 (14:57):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yes, I mean, you know, we've got to keep this
in perspective in the sense you know, New Zealand has
many strengths. It's got an open, pretty honest, transparent liberal democracy.
We are consistently ranked in the top three of the
world as being the most honest countries in the world
according to Transparency International and that of course makes us
(15:17):
slightly vulnerable to interference by authoritarian states which don't hesitate,
of course, to use the freedoms of this country to
project their interest when we cannot do the same in
their societies. So it's a sort of one way advantage
which they seek to exploit, and they certainly get involved
in our social filia. But there are ways in which
(15:39):
New Zealand can, if you like, enhance its situation. I
think first of all, New Zealand needs to clearly signal
that it's going to end it's under investment in the
what I call the defense sector of this country. On average,
in the last two decades we spent about one percent
of GDP on defense and intelligence. I think that needs
(16:01):
to be boosted to about one point seven percent, and
it needs to be done quite quickly. That would be
a statement of intent that we're not only a liberal
tolerance society, but we're quite prepared to invest to ensure
that it remains that way. I think also there are
other things we can do through diplomacy that helps to
(16:22):
make us, if you're like, less vulnerable to foreign interference.
We've already mentioned one which the government has been doing,
which is recognizing the strategic linkage between helping defeat Putin's
illegal invasion of Ukraine and also deterring Chinese assertiveness in
the Indo Pacific. See, there is a strategic connection there
(16:42):
which many people miss. Many people look at the Battle
of Ukraine and say, ah, it's so far away from us.
We really empathize with the Ukrainians, but it's too far
away from us. Actually, two of the key players in
the Ukraine War which are tacitly indirectly helping Russia well
in our neighborhood Indo Pacific. One is China, which is
(17:03):
providing indirect assistance to Russia, and the second is India,
another country we want to free trade with. Now, if
we want to send a clear message to both China
and India for their ambiguity and indeed support for the
Putin's regimes invasion of Ukraine, then we need to do
what we can to support Ukraine. That sends a clear message.
(17:25):
I mean, make no mistake about it. If Putin fails
in Ukraine, and I don't think that can be ruled out,
that will register quite significantly in Beijing, and it will
send the message. I think that China will have to
be much less assertive on the international stage, particularly in
relation to Taiwan, because the country which has tacitly supported
(17:46):
has failed through the If you like the assertion of power,
and I think it's also important that New Zealand sends
a message to allies which are undermining the fabric of
the international rules based order. It's important, for example, that
New Zealand speak out when allies like the United States
are complicited in the undermining of international law in barbaric
(18:09):
conflicts such as in Gaza, where close to forty thousand
Palestinians have died, and at least fifteen thousand of those
Palestinians have been children, which by definition have nothing to
do with the original Hamas attack on the seventh of
October which prompted this massive and disproportionate response from Israel.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Thanks for joining us, Robert. That's it for this episode
of the Front Page. You can read more about today's
stories and extensive news coverage at enzet Herald dot co
dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills
with sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to
(18:52):
the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your
podcasts and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
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