August 12, 2025 • 22 mins
The Government’s decision on whether it’ll recognise the state of Palestine has been put on hold until next month.
It’s despite our closest neighbour Australia following a sweep of countries moving to support Palestine.
78 years since the United Nations resolution to create the State of Israel and a Palestinian state, Australia’s PM Anthony Albanese said the world “can no longer wait for the implementation of that resolution to be negotiated between the two parties”.
So, how should New Zealand proceed? And if it’s a matter of “when not if” -- as David Seymour has said – then why are we behind the eight ball?
Today on The Front Page, University of Otago senior politics professor Dr Leon Goldsmith is with us to unpack the complexities of this never-ending conflict.
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You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Editor/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Jane Yee
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kyota.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The government's
decision on whether it'll recognize the State of Palestine has
been put on hold until next month. It's despite our
closest neighbor, Australia, following a sweep of countries moving to
(00:29):
support Palestine. Seventy eight years since the United Nations resolution
to create the State of Israel and a Palestinian state,
Australia's PM Anthony Albanesi said the world can no longer
wait for the implementation of that resolution to be negotiated
between the two parties. So how should New Zealand proceed
(00:52):
and if it's a matter of when not if, as
David Seymour has said, then why are we so behind
the April Today on the Front Page, University of Otago
Senior politics professor doctor Leon Goldsmith is with us to
unpack the complexities of this never ending conflict. Leon Winston
(01:16):
Peters has said it's not a straightforward, clear cut issue
and the government is still weighing up New Zealand's position.
Is he right to wait it out?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
I mean I think he's right when he says that
it's not a clear cut, straightforward issue, I think I
totally agree with that, and we should also, you know,
we should be mindful that we don't rush into sort
of knee jerk reactions depending on the actions of our neighbors, allies,
or the international community. I also agree that we have
(01:48):
an independent foreign policy and we need to make our
own decisions.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
So in that.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Respect, I think it's correct. However, the situation is urgent
and imperative, and if it is going to make any
different to the humanitarian situation in Gaza, I think that
the government needs to weigh up very carefully. Withether adding
its voice in a sort of concert with others will
(02:14):
help that, but I don't know if it's one hundred
percent sure if it will. I think it's in terms
of the way that the messages are being transmitted is
really important at this moment, and there's a lot of insecurity,
there's a lot of misinformation, and I think we do, actually,
regardless of the situation, have to be very measured in
(02:37):
the way that we react to the situation.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
In terms of so we're looking at recognizing the state
of Palestine, what other options are.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
There well, I think, I mean that the imperative right
now is to try to get a sustainable ceasefire and
to try to alleviate the suffering of God and civilians,
to get the hostages released, to find some way to
(03:08):
de escalate the conflict between Hamas and the IDEF in
the Gaza envelope. So I mean, the question of a
two state solution is a very complicated one. It's something
that hasn't been resolved in the seventy eight years until now.
It's not something that can be achieved through a sort
of a diplomatic stroke, And I think it's for the
(03:32):
Israelis and the Palestinians once they can find some kind
of stable platform to start to develop confidence measuring, confidence
building measures which have happened in the past. But unfortunately
we've got extremists on both sides who are not really
interested in working towards that kind of situation. So I
think New Zealand should be continuing to call for a ceasefire,
(03:56):
continuing to call for some kind of hostage release in
disarmament where possible, But of course it's not easy.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
It's not easy.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
What's the difference between recognizing the state of Palestine and
supporting the two state solution in Palestinian self determination, which
I think is our current standing.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yeah, I mean we've supported officially a two state solution
ever since the Resolution one A one in nineteen forty seven. So,
but recognizing the state of Polace oly So on twenty twelve,
the General Assembly recognizing Palestinian as a non observer state
to the Yun it's symbolic, it's a kind of a
(04:41):
diplomatic move and as far as symbolic in terms of
presenting these stants on different countries towards the rights of
Palestine and also Israel. We said that we recognize that
there could be some kind of state for the Palestinians,
but we don't know what that state would look like
in terms of its final shape. This has been the
key sticking point ever since in nineteen forty nine. What
(05:05):
is the final borders? Where will they be? What is
the right of return not just for Palestinians who were
pushed out of their homes, but also for Jewish people
who are pushed out of Arab countries during that conflict
period as well. So what is there compensation? Is there
(05:26):
some way that some can come back?
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Is there?
Speaker 3 (05:30):
And the third thing which is really crucial is what
is the status of Jerusalem? Is it the capital for
two states? Is that can the Palestinians accept an alternative capital,
which they say they won't, And that's really the key
issues at the crux of an actual two state solution.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
And also it's become this kind of.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
The inability of the international community, starting with Obama and
previous to actually get the Israelis to freeze the settlements
has meant that there is no contigious territory for the
Palestinians to create a state on anyway. Like the conditions
on the ground, which is I observed firsthand when I
was there in twenty twenty three are not conducive to
(06:24):
a state. The political criteria that Foreign Minister, our foreign
minister spoke about it not there as well. There is
no unity on either the Israeli or the Palestinians. I
both are deeply divided politically, with different visions about what
each wants, and I think that has to also be
(06:45):
taken into account.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Australia will recognize the state of Palestine. Australia will recognize
the ride up the Palestinian people to a state of
their own predicated on commitments Australia has received from the
Palestinian authority. We will work with the international community to
make this right a reality. Australia is making this statement
(07:13):
today following our cabinet meeting as part of a coordinated
global effort building momentum for a two state solution.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I know that when announcing Australia's recognition of the Palestinian State,
Anthony Albernezi said he will officially recognize it at the
United Nations Leaders Week late next month, and Winston Peters
has said his waiting until then as well to announce
our stance. What's the significance of waiting until that week.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Well, I guess it's kind of like it gives him
more time. It's kind of like stalling for time because
I don't think that our government really does have as
he's kind of eluded in their press statement that they
don't have a a consensus around this even.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Within the government itself.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
But the fact that they're talking about potentially acknowledging the
Palestinian state that meeting is also could have an impact
in terms of the international kind of pattern or the
trajectory that the pressure that they're intending to put on
Nefhan Yahoo to actually respond and to make some concessions
(08:25):
and sort of like some of the you know what's
happening right now in Gaza in terms of Gaza City
and the humanitarian crisis.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Middle Eastern conflicts are complicated, to say the least. It's
not all black and white as some people want it
to be. It's certainly not explainable through a twenty minute podcast.
It's not explainable probably through a two hour lecture, etc.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
You've written before.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
The solution to untangle and diffuse the conflict is not
to grab one thread and target hard, but to find
all the threads that prepare to wait the crisis. I
thought that was a really good way of putting it.
Explain that to me a little bit more sure.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
I mean, exactly like you said, it's not a black
and white. These are the good guys and the bad guys.
These are the ones who are right, These are the
ones who have the rights and those ones that don't.
A lot of the sort of zero sum ratract that
we've had is actually, I believe, has been making the
situation wise because it's increasing a sense of international rejection
(09:30):
or a sense of the very genuine perceptions of racism
or anti Semitism or xenophobic against Muslims or whatever. Unfortunately,
we don't have this perfect rules based order that can
basically come in and impose a solution. With the rules
based kind of objective solution, you have to find out
(09:54):
what is the political interest of all of the different
parties within this Gordian not and try to find some
way that they can find an interest based compromise. So,
for example, on the Palestinian side, you have Fattah Plo,
Palaestinian Authority and Hamas who have very different ideas about
(10:15):
what a future solution looks like. One is resistance based,
armed resistance based. The other one is negotiations trying to
continue with the Oslo process. It's such like political negotiated
confidence building. And also within the Israeli body politic you
have people who have no desire to compromise with the
(10:36):
Palestinians and they want to basically use any excuse like
October seven provided a good excuse to be able to
try to expand ethnically, clans, resettle, all of these things.
But they're vast but that's actually probably a minority on
both sides. So for example, this Sunday. I think that
(10:58):
they're calling for massive strikes protests, hundreds of thousands up
to a million protesting on Sunday against the war on
the Israeli side. Whatever New Zealand says is a country
should be actually trying to reach out to those groups
to work with them, not make a statement which is
kind of like can be interpreted as kind of fully
(11:21):
pro Palestinian and not really taken into account Israeli interests
as well. So the differences between the Orthodox Jews who
won't serve in the army and are seen as a
kind of a burden on Israeli society, there's actually quite
a strong division between them and sort of secular Israeli
(11:42):
Jews as well, the Israeli Arabs. What is their interest?
And it's getting more and more complicated as we go
in because a lot of them, if, for example, a
unilateral Palestinian state was declared, what is their position in that?
Do they want to surrender their Israeli citizenship? Will they
be like forced pushed into a Palestinian state which has
(12:02):
no and lose their jobs and their security and their
status which a lot of them don't want to in
a state which is going to be underresourced and almost
under enormous pressure from external forces immediately. So that's what
I'm saying, And it's not you say I can't explain
everything in a twenty minute podcast, but being aware and
(12:25):
being very careful to avoid blanket generalizations which actually can
potentially make the situation worse rather than improve it.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
We do see protesters here demanding that our government do more,
do this, do that. And this is something else that
you've written about as well, that protest is by only
speaking to one side of the crisis, are unintentionally playing
into their part in polarizing the region. Is that because
it's it is that want to innate human need to
(13:07):
be like, well, these are the good guys, these are
the baddies. It should be simple, but it's actually really not.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
I think that's unfortunately correct, And what you raised there
is really important because for like an Israeli or even
a Jewish person around the world, it's hard to know
how they feel when they look at these protests.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Are they saying from the river to the sea? Is that?
Speaker 3 (13:36):
What does it mean exactly? Because previously when yesa Arafat
said it, he meant it was reconquest completely what does
the Palestinian flag mean when you look at it, it
means it actually comes from Arab nationalism, which is an
ethno nationalist ideology, which is this is all Arab land.
So it's kind of like a competing ethno nationalist ideology
(13:56):
with Jewish nationalism, which is also toxic. And the sense
is that this land was never Jewish or fully only
Jewish or only Arab. But if political actors in Israel
like Nathania, who who's very skillfully trying to manipulate the narrative,
can use some of these protests which seem I know
(14:20):
they're not, but they see one sided as a kind
of political fodder to be able to show that people
who are on the fans, look, we're actually very insecure internationally,
we have to stick together, we have to be instead
of feeding into that siege mentality. They use that, and
especially the ones on the hard right are using this
(14:42):
as evidence that we have to actually be tough Bizill
or Smitritch and it might Ben Gevere who are genuine
extremist fundamentalists, and so they're looking to use any kind
of imagery and narrative and international kind of this course
that they can filill towards their propaganda purposes. So we
(15:05):
should take the wind out of their sales and say
very clearly, we're not against Israel, We're not against Palestine,
We're for both. And now it sounds crazy. It's hard
for people to actually try to get their heads around
that because we have internalized, you know, this sort of
colonial occupation narrative where there are elements of that. But
(15:28):
we also have to remember that sixty percent of Israeli
citizens are from the Middle East, whether they are Misiaki,
Jews or Arab citizens of Israel. So it's yeah, just
being a little bit more careful and not beating the
fire trying to help to douse it somehow as what
(15:50):
we need to be trying to do.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
I'm just acknowledging that this is an issue that has
been young.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
We've had a long.
Speaker 5 (15:58):
Standing position since partition in nineteen forty seven to recognize
both Palestine and Israel. And clearly, you know, our focus
has been you know, as we've said, when, not if,
And as a result for us, we've got to work
through this rather serious issue.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
We've got to do it properly.
Speaker 5 (16:13):
As a complex issue, there are strong feelings on all
sides of this debate in the public, as you've seen,
and it's important that we make the right sitsum.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
In terms of so the government, our government is not
disclosing what the conditions or criteria for us joining the
recognition of the state of Palestine. They're not disclosing that yet.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
What do you think.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
I mean, one of them is obviously her Maas releasing hostages.
What could be some others?
Speaker 3 (16:44):
I mean, I think that we may join with the
Arab States and asking Hamas to disarm. They won't do that,
of course, I mean, we could find ourselves like they're
talking about a UN force coming in to try to
do that. We'll end up in the same situation of
the idea. And now I think that the hostages, of
course are complete cease fire, but of course the current
(17:09):
government in Israel doesn't want that to happen. They don't
want a ceasefire, and of course smart Rich and Ben
Giberta continuously threatening to collapse Nethania, Who's government. Interestingly, I
think like if you look at the the idiosyncrasies of
the Israeli electoral system they are currently out of that
has finished the summer session, so in technical times, his
(17:33):
coalition partners can't collapse his government. So this might explain
why there's a pressure being applied to Nathan now who now,
But unfortunately he doesn't seem to be responsive to that,
and he's doubling down looking at the long game as well.
I mean, of course, officially New Zealand's criterias that there
should be political economic security criteria mat but it's very vague.
(17:58):
What does that actually mean. I think that they'll probably
interpret that liberally depending on what does the situation come
September for that leader's meeting.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
At the UN.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
What should New Zealand do then to make us better informed?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
I mean, I.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Suppose it would be easy now, especially given Australia, Australia's
recognition to just follow the herd so to speak. How
should we treat the situation differently?
Speaker 3 (18:27):
I mean, considering the nature of the current Israeli government
and in Hamas as the sort of de facto governing
body and Gaza at least, I think that we should
be looking to put together some kind of urgent thing tanks.
I know, there's a lot of crises around the world.
To be able to gather data and information and intelligence.
(18:50):
I mean, for example, I spend a lot of my
time talking to people on the Palestinian side, on the
Israeli side, Syria, on all of that, and what I've
noticed there are really good people, some of them with
more or less levels of influence, who have good pragmatic solutions,
but they're not reaching.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Policymakers.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
So Track two non governmental outreach to potential future for example,
parts of the Israeli opposition and the NGOs and civil society,
parts of Israeli society, I mean Palestinian society who are
increasingly furious with Hamas and what they've dragged them into,
(19:35):
instead of some I don't think we're going to get
a solution out of the current leadership, but some kind
of parallel discussions or trying to bring people together as
a neutral, objective arbiter rather than someone who's pursuing seemingly
an agenda on one side or the other.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
What's been nearly eighty years since the world pushed for
a two states solution? Will it take another eighty to
make it happen? I mean, what is the end goal here?
When do we say enough is enough?
Speaker 3 (20:11):
I think it's been enough for a long time. I
think there's genuine will to find some kind of solution.
If you can separate the messianic element and the kind
of authoritarians out of the picture of contain them, you'll
see that there's more desire to solve this situation in
Israel than there has ever been in They became a
(20:34):
little bit infatuated with military success through forty eight, sixty seven,
seventy three, and so they believe that a military solution
could work long term to provide security. But I think
a lot of people realizing that can't. So therefore that's
an opportunity. And the same applies on the Palestinian side
(20:56):
that sort of like acts of terrorism or like want
on on violence is not going to actually lead them
to a solution that's just going to continue to spiral.
So while there's so much dark, kind of gloomy outlock,
there's also some potential there. But we need to have
(21:19):
our eyes open, I think, to see it, and our
he has opened as well.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Thanks for joining us, Leon, You're most welcome. Thank you
for having me.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also
our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the front Page
on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune
(21:56):
in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Four
Kyota.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The government's
decision on whether it'll recognize the State of Palestine has
been put on hold until next month. It's despite our
closest neighbor, Australia, following a sweep of countries moving to
(00:29):
support Palestine. Seventy eight years since the United Nations resolution
to create the State of Israel and a Palestinian state,
Australia's PM Anthony Albanesi said the world can no longer
wait for the implementation of that resolution to be negotiated
between the two parties. So how should New Zealand proceed
(00:52):
and if it's a matter of when not if, as
David Seymour has said, then why are we so behind
the April Today on the Front Page, University of Otago
Senior politics professor doctor Leon Goldsmith is with us to
unpack the complexities of this never ending conflict. Leon Winston
(01:16):
Peters has said it's not a straightforward, clear cut issue
and the government is still weighing up New Zealand's position.
Is he right to wait it out?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
I mean I think he's right when he says that
it's not a clear cut, straightforward issue, I think I
totally agree with that, and we should also, you know,
we should be mindful that we don't rush into sort
of knee jerk reactions depending on the actions of our neighbors, allies,
or the international community. I also agree that we have
(01:48):
an independent foreign policy and we need to make our
own decisions.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
So in that.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Respect, I think it's correct. However, the situation is urgent
and imperative, and if it is going to make any
different to the humanitarian situation in Gaza, I think that
the government needs to weigh up very carefully. Withether adding
its voice in a sort of concert with others will
(02:14):
help that, but I don't know if it's one hundred
percent sure if it will. I think it's in terms
of the way that the messages are being transmitted is
really important at this moment, and there's a lot of insecurity,
there's a lot of misinformation, and I think we do, actually,
regardless of the situation, have to be very measured in
(02:37):
the way that we react to the situation.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
In terms of so we're looking at recognizing the state
of Palestine, what other options are.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
There well, I think, I mean that the imperative right
now is to try to get a sustainable ceasefire and
to try to alleviate the suffering of God and civilians,
to get the hostages released, to find some way to
(03:08):
de escalate the conflict between Hamas and the IDEF in
the Gaza envelope. So I mean, the question of a
two state solution is a very complicated one. It's something
that hasn't been resolved in the seventy eight years until now.
It's not something that can be achieved through a sort
of a diplomatic stroke, And I think it's for the
(03:32):
Israelis and the Palestinians once they can find some kind
of stable platform to start to develop confidence measuring, confidence
building measures which have happened in the past. But unfortunately
we've got extremists on both sides who are not really
interested in working towards that kind of situation. So I
think New Zealand should be continuing to call for a ceasefire,
(03:56):
continuing to call for some kind of hostage release in
disarmament where possible, But of course it's not easy.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
It's not easy.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
What's the difference between recognizing the state of Palestine and
supporting the two state solution in Palestinian self determination, which
I think is our current standing.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yeah, I mean we've supported officially a two state solution
ever since the Resolution one A one in nineteen forty seven. So,
but recognizing the state of Polace oly So on twenty twelve,
the General Assembly recognizing Palestinian as a non observer state
to the Yun it's symbolic, it's a kind of a
(04:41):
diplomatic move and as far as symbolic in terms of
presenting these stants on different countries towards the rights of
Palestine and also Israel. We said that we recognize that
there could be some kind of state for the Palestinians,
but we don't know what that state would look like
in terms of its final shape. This has been the
key sticking point ever since in nineteen forty nine. What
(05:05):
is the final borders? Where will they be? What is
the right of return not just for Palestinians who were
pushed out of their homes, but also for Jewish people
who are pushed out of Arab countries during that conflict
period as well. So what is there compensation? Is there
(05:26):
some way that some can come back?
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Is there?
Speaker 3 (05:30):
And the third thing which is really crucial is what
is the status of Jerusalem? Is it the capital for
two states? Is that can the Palestinians accept an alternative capital,
which they say they won't, And that's really the key
issues at the crux of an actual two state solution.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
And also it's become this kind of.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
The inability of the international community, starting with Obama and
previous to actually get the Israelis to freeze the settlements
has meant that there is no contigious territory for the
Palestinians to create a state on anyway. Like the conditions
on the ground, which is I observed firsthand when I
was there in twenty twenty three are not conducive to
(06:24):
a state. The political criteria that Foreign Minister, our foreign
minister spoke about it not there as well. There is
no unity on either the Israeli or the Palestinians. I
both are deeply divided politically, with different visions about what
each wants, and I think that has to also be
(06:45):
taken into account.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Australia will recognize the state of Palestine. Australia will recognize
the ride up the Palestinian people to a state of
their own predicated on commitments Australia has received from the
Palestinian authority. We will work with the international community to
make this right a reality. Australia is making this statement
(07:13):
today following our cabinet meeting as part of a coordinated
global effort building momentum for a two state solution.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I know that when announcing Australia's recognition of the Palestinian State,
Anthony Albernezi said he will officially recognize it at the
United Nations Leaders Week late next month, and Winston Peters
has said his waiting until then as well to announce
our stance. What's the significance of waiting until that week.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Well, I guess it's kind of like it gives him
more time. It's kind of like stalling for time because
I don't think that our government really does have as
he's kind of eluded in their press statement that they
don't have a a consensus around this even.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Within the government itself.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
But the fact that they're talking about potentially acknowledging the
Palestinian state that meeting is also could have an impact
in terms of the international kind of pattern or the
trajectory that the pressure that they're intending to put on
Nefhan Yahoo to actually respond and to make some concessions
(08:25):
and sort of like some of the you know what's
happening right now in Gaza in terms of Gaza City
and the humanitarian crisis.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Middle Eastern conflicts are complicated, to say the least. It's
not all black and white as some people want it
to be. It's certainly not explainable through a twenty minute podcast.
It's not explainable probably through a two hour lecture, etc.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
You've written before.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
The solution to untangle and diffuse the conflict is not
to grab one thread and target hard, but to find
all the threads that prepare to wait the crisis. I
thought that was a really good way of putting it.
Explain that to me a little bit more sure.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
I mean, exactly like you said, it's not a black
and white. These are the good guys and the bad guys.
These are the ones who are right, These are the
ones who have the rights and those ones that don't.
A lot of the sort of zero sum ratract that
we've had is actually, I believe, has been making the
situation wise because it's increasing a sense of international rejection
(09:30):
or a sense of the very genuine perceptions of racism
or anti Semitism or xenophobic against Muslims or whatever. Unfortunately,
we don't have this perfect rules based order that can
basically come in and impose a solution. With the rules
based kind of objective solution, you have to find out
(09:54):
what is the political interest of all of the different
parties within this Gordian not and try to find some
way that they can find an interest based compromise. So,
for example, on the Palestinian side, you have Fattah Plo,
Palaestinian Authority and Hamas who have very different ideas about
(10:15):
what a future solution looks like. One is resistance based,
armed resistance based. The other one is negotiations trying to
continue with the Oslo process. It's such like political negotiated
confidence building. And also within the Israeli body politic you
have people who have no desire to compromise with the
(10:36):
Palestinians and they want to basically use any excuse like
October seven provided a good excuse to be able to
try to expand ethnically, clans, resettle, all of these things.
But they're vast but that's actually probably a minority on
both sides. So for example, this Sunday. I think that
(10:58):
they're calling for massive strikes protests, hundreds of thousands up
to a million protesting on Sunday against the war on
the Israeli side. Whatever New Zealand says is a country
should be actually trying to reach out to those groups
to work with them, not make a statement which is
kind of like can be interpreted as kind of fully
(11:21):
pro Palestinian and not really taken into account Israeli interests
as well. So the differences between the Orthodox Jews who
won't serve in the army and are seen as a
kind of a burden on Israeli society, there's actually quite
a strong division between them and sort of secular Israeli
(11:42):
Jews as well, the Israeli Arabs. What is their interest?
And it's getting more and more complicated as we go
in because a lot of them, if, for example, a
unilateral Palestinian state was declared, what is their position in that?
Do they want to surrender their Israeli citizenship? Will they
be like forced pushed into a Palestinian state which has
(12:02):
no and lose their jobs and their security and their
status which a lot of them don't want to in
a state which is going to be underresourced and almost
under enormous pressure from external forces immediately. So that's what
I'm saying, And it's not you say I can't explain
everything in a twenty minute podcast, but being aware and
(12:25):
being very careful to avoid blanket generalizations which actually can
potentially make the situation worse rather than improve it.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
We do see protesters here demanding that our government do more,
do this, do that. And this is something else that
you've written about as well, that protest is by only
speaking to one side of the crisis, are unintentionally playing
into their part in polarizing the region. Is that because
it's it is that want to innate human need to
(13:07):
be like, well, these are the good guys, these are
the baddies. It should be simple, but it's actually really not.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
I think that's unfortunately correct, And what you raised there
is really important because for like an Israeli or even
a Jewish person around the world, it's hard to know
how they feel when they look at these protests.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Are they saying from the river to the sea? Is that?
Speaker 3 (13:36):
What does it mean exactly? Because previously when yesa Arafat
said it, he meant it was reconquest completely what does
the Palestinian flag mean when you look at it, it
means it actually comes from Arab nationalism, which is an
ethno nationalist ideology, which is this is all Arab land.
So it's kind of like a competing ethno nationalist ideology
(13:56):
with Jewish nationalism, which is also toxic. And the sense
is that this land was never Jewish or fully only
Jewish or only Arab. But if political actors in Israel
like Nathania, who who's very skillfully trying to manipulate the narrative,
can use some of these protests which seem I know
(14:20):
they're not, but they see one sided as a kind
of political fodder to be able to show that people
who are on the fans, look, we're actually very insecure internationally,
we have to stick together, we have to be instead
of feeding into that siege mentality. They use that, and
especially the ones on the hard right are using this
(14:42):
as evidence that we have to actually be tough Bizill
or Smitritch and it might Ben Gevere who are genuine
extremist fundamentalists, and so they're looking to use any kind
of imagery and narrative and international kind of this course
that they can filill towards their propaganda purposes. So we
(15:05):
should take the wind out of their sales and say
very clearly, we're not against Israel, We're not against Palestine,
We're for both. And now it sounds crazy. It's hard
for people to actually try to get their heads around
that because we have internalized, you know, this sort of
colonial occupation narrative where there are elements of that. But
(15:28):
we also have to remember that sixty percent of Israeli
citizens are from the Middle East, whether they are Misiaki,
Jews or Arab citizens of Israel. So it's yeah, just
being a little bit more careful and not beating the
fire trying to help to douse it somehow as what
(15:50):
we need to be trying to do.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
I'm just acknowledging that this is an issue that has
been young.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
We've had a long.
Speaker 5 (15:58):
Standing position since partition in nineteen forty seven to recognize
both Palestine and Israel. And clearly, you know, our focus
has been you know, as we've said, when, not if,
And as a result for us, we've got to work
through this rather serious issue.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
We've got to do it properly.
Speaker 5 (16:13):
As a complex issue, there are strong feelings on all
sides of this debate in the public, as you've seen,
and it's important that we make the right sitsum.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
In terms of so the government, our government is not
disclosing what the conditions or criteria for us joining the
recognition of the state of Palestine. They're not disclosing that yet.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
What do you think.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
I mean, one of them is obviously her Maas releasing hostages.
What could be some others?
Speaker 3 (16:44):
I mean, I think that we may join with the
Arab States and asking Hamas to disarm. They won't do that,
of course, I mean, we could find ourselves like they're
talking about a UN force coming in to try to
do that. We'll end up in the same situation of
the idea. And now I think that the hostages, of
course are complete cease fire, but of course the current
(17:09):
government in Israel doesn't want that to happen. They don't
want a ceasefire, and of course smart Rich and Ben
Giberta continuously threatening to collapse Nethania, Who's government. Interestingly, I
think like if you look at the the idiosyncrasies of
the Israeli electoral system they are currently out of that
has finished the summer session, so in technical times, his
(17:33):
coalition partners can't collapse his government. So this might explain
why there's a pressure being applied to Nathan now who now,
But unfortunately he doesn't seem to be responsive to that,
and he's doubling down looking at the long game as well.
I mean, of course, officially New Zealand's criterias that there
should be political economic security criteria mat but it's very vague.
(17:58):
What does that actually mean. I think that they'll probably
interpret that liberally depending on what does the situation come
September for that leader's meeting.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
At the UN.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
What should New Zealand do then to make us better informed?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
I mean, I.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Suppose it would be easy now, especially given Australia, Australia's
recognition to just follow the herd so to speak. How
should we treat the situation differently?
Speaker 3 (18:27):
I mean, considering the nature of the current Israeli government
and in Hamas as the sort of de facto governing
body and Gaza at least, I think that we should
be looking to put together some kind of urgent thing tanks.
I know, there's a lot of crises around the world.
To be able to gather data and information and intelligence.
(18:50):
I mean, for example, I spend a lot of my
time talking to people on the Palestinian side, on the
Israeli side, Syria, on all of that, and what I've
noticed there are really good people, some of them with
more or less levels of influence, who have good pragmatic solutions,
but they're not reaching.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Policymakers.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
So Track two non governmental outreach to potential future for example,
parts of the Israeli opposition and the NGOs and civil society,
parts of Israeli society, I mean Palestinian society who are
increasingly furious with Hamas and what they've dragged them into,
(19:35):
instead of some I don't think we're going to get
a solution out of the current leadership, but some kind
of parallel discussions or trying to bring people together as
a neutral, objective arbiter rather than someone who's pursuing seemingly
an agenda on one side or the other.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
What's been nearly eighty years since the world pushed for
a two states solution? Will it take another eighty to
make it happen? I mean, what is the end goal here?
When do we say enough is enough?
Speaker 3 (20:11):
I think it's been enough for a long time. I
think there's genuine will to find some kind of solution.
If you can separate the messianic element and the kind
of authoritarians out of the picture of contain them, you'll
see that there's more desire to solve this situation in
Israel than there has ever been in They became a
(20:34):
little bit infatuated with military success through forty eight, sixty seven,
seventy three, and so they believe that a military solution
could work long term to provide security. But I think
a lot of people realizing that can't. So therefore that's
an opportunity. And the same applies on the Palestinian side
(20:56):
that sort of like acts of terrorism or like want
on on violence is not going to actually lead them
to a solution that's just going to continue to spiral.
So while there's so much dark, kind of gloomy outlock,
there's also some potential there. But we need to have
(21:19):
our eyes open, I think, to see it, and our
he has opened as well.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Thanks for joining us, Leon, You're most welcome. Thank you
for having me.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also
our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the front Page
on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune
(21:56):
in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
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