Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:19):
Kyota.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I at Chelsea Daniels here, host of the Front Page.
We're taking away breakover summer, but to help build the gap,
we're re issuing some of our most significant episodes of
twenty twenty five on behalf of the Front Page team.
Thanks for listening and we look forward to being back
with you on January twelfth, twenty twenty six.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Kyoda.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm Chelsea Daniels, and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. You might
look on Facebook Marketplace for a new couch, a lamp,
a rug, but what about Class A drugs or how
about a ghost gun. Herald investigation has revealed at least
(01:07):
fifty six listings were circulating on the site offering magic mushrooms,
cannabis and in one case LSD across the North Island
and Top of the South and that could be just
the tip of the iceberg of illicit sales on social media.
So how do we get on top of this enzid
(01:27):
Herald's senior investigative reporter, Michael Mora has been looking into
this and joins us today on the Front Page. Michael,
how did this first capture your attention?
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Well?
Speaker 5 (01:42):
I was contacted by a bay of plenty man who
essentially said there are multiple listings on Facebook Marketplace for drugs,
and these listings then linked to encrypted Telegram accounts. I
contacted some of these dealers on Facebook Marketplace, and you'd
(02:05):
go to the encrypted Telegram account and then from the outset,
from what it looked like it was just magic mushrooms
being sold. But when you went to the Telegram account
and asked for a full menu that you were then
supplied with a list of many other A class drugs.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
It's interesting that they've chosen to advertise mushrooms, but that's
actually a class A drug in itself, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (02:30):
I think it's potentially because those peddling these drugs think
that mushrooms is a more innocuous term than perhaps using
cocaine or methanphetamine or whatever else. But it seems clear
that the ad for mushrooms is just a gateway to
(02:51):
then offer the visitor any other form of drugs that
they want. Now, I was unable to verify whether in
fact these drugs could indeed be purchased, but the very
fact that these are advertised on Facebook Marketplace a very
very open platform would suggest that if you indeed were
(03:14):
a legitimate seller, you could do this because it exposes
a loophole, regardless of it whether these people on marketplace
are scammers or legitimate sellers of Class A drugs, it
shows that on Facebook marketplace you can do it and
get away with it.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Right.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
So what do these listings actually say? They've got like mushrooms?
And then it has what.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
I've seen listings that included drugs for sale, including pictures,
images of magic mushrooms, cannabis, tabs of LSD gummies for
sale as well. And then when you link to the
telegram account, you're supplied with a full menu of any
(03:59):
type of drug you can imagine, including ayahuasca, masculine cocaine, MDMA,
et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Wow, and so Telegram, I'm assuming they use that because
it's encrypted, one.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Of those absolutely yeah. Encrypted.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
So, like I say, I believe that these very open
advertisements for mushrooms essentially to get lots of eyes onto
a product and a legal product, to then lead the
visitor to this other menu and the supply of other drugs.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
It took me all of about a minute this morning
to find one of these ads on Facebook Marketplace that
you told me about, and it didn't take very much
like snooping as well. Then I saw another one. Then
I scrolled down a little further and I think I
counted up to like forty of them, and all of
them listed either today, yesterday, within the last couple of days.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I mean, is it just a case of whack.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
A mole out there?
Speaker 5 (04:55):
I think so, And I mean that's what really surprised
me about this situation. I mean, you know, police and
other authorities have said for some time that we're seeing
an increasing number of drug sales on social media. But
what surprised me about this was just how open and
blatant the dealers were being. And when I initially was
(05:18):
reviewing Facebook Marketplace, I counted a total of fifty six
different listings from the far north right down to the
Tasmin region, Nelson and picton all saying we've got various
drugs available and you can pick them up or we
can deliver. So I was pretty surprised by that, and
(05:39):
of course I got in touch with Meta, which is
the owner of Facebook, and after sending several links to
them and screenshots, they said they would then act to
remove those illegal accounts.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Who else have you spoken to about this? I mean,
I can't imagine the New Zealand Drug Foundation would be
too happy about it.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
They do think there are obvious inherent risks with this.
They talk about the risk with magic mushrooms, for example,
is in the CEO Sarah Halm's words, the risk is
identification of the mushroom.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Right.
Speaker 5 (06:17):
If you get the wrong one and you don't know
what it is, that can be very risky. But in general,
the active ingredient in magic mushrooms is not something, she says,
that could have fatal consequences. But she says the other
issue with Marketplace, of course, is that it exposes people,
including young people who go on to these sites, to
(06:40):
material that they otherwise would not be exposed to. That
is one of the concerns. The other key.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Concern of the Drug Foundation, of course, is.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
That they are an entity that is set up to
promote and give information about drug harm reduction. That is
one of their core things. You know, you see them
talking about drug testing at festivals and promoting information about
new and emerging drugs if they're dangerous or lethal, to
put that information out on social media. Some of the
(07:09):
information they are promoting is funded by the Ministry of
Health by Health New Zealand, and what we know is
that surprisingly some of their drug harm reduction messaging is
being blocked by Meta because they flag it as problematic.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
And that is, in.
Speaker 5 (07:27):
Sarah Helm's words from the Drug Foundation, ironic considering that
you have dealers supposedly openly promoting the sale of drugs online.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Isn't that incredible? I mean, I suppose if you type
in I'm going to sell a gram of cocaine, it'll
be it'll pop up with it with a flag being like, oh,
no cocaine, but mushrooms.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I guess maybe a word that isn't it is more innocuous.
I suppose maybe that's why.
Speaker 5 (07:55):
Well, that's right, And I mean, my original source for
this story said that he was really frustrated Worth Meta,
the owner of Facebook, because he reported dozens and dozens
of these listings over at the course of several weeks.
So you can go to the listings and click on
little three dots and go down and report this as
(08:16):
a dangerous or problematic listing, and what happened he says,
absolutely nothing. So of course, when I contacted Meta, perhaps
because they were risks they risked being embarrassed by a journalist.
They said they were taken taking action to remove some
of these listings. But the interesting thing, as you point out, is,
as you've discovered this morning, these listings are still up there.
(08:39):
It does raise a question as to whether Meta is
really prioritizing the detection and removal of illegal drugs on
its websites or whether it lets them slip because it
drives traffic and ultimately profits.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
As far as drug use, I don't judge anyone, but
you know, like it has to be off social media.
It's got to get off social media. Why do you
say that, Well, you know, there's a lot of kids
on social media. There's a lot of impressionable people on
social media. There are a lot of people who have
(09:20):
never used this an iconic in their life. Do we
really want to be turning people who have never touched
drugs into attics because they're curious and it's suddenly easily accessible.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Well, you've actually met a dealer. Hey, what did they
say about this?
Speaker 5 (09:42):
Yeah, So, following that initial story that we did on
the Facebook marketplace, I've been in touch with a former
dealer who used Meta products to sell drugs, including cannabis,
LSD MDMA I have verified through the courts that he
(10:03):
has a whole series of criminal convictions for drugs, and
he says that what most of the public won't be
aware of is that there is so much available now
on social media and it is any drug you can
think of, if you.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Want it, it's out there and it's available.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
And did he say something like, because you mentioned before
they offered delivery as well, it's like an uber for drugs.
Speaker 5 (10:34):
Well, in his words, it's as easy as ordering a pizza.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
It is, you know, uber for drugs.
Speaker 5 (10:41):
He says that in his experience he felt bulletproof when
he was using private groups on Facebook Messenger. That's the
platform he used, not marketplace. He was a bit more
stealthy than that. He used private groups on Facebook Messenger
to deal his drugs. But he said he felt bulletproof
because at no stage did his accounts ever get disabled,
(11:03):
At no stage did he believe police or anyone else
could get into those groups, because he oversaw the membership
of those groups.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
So he felt completely safe.
Speaker 5 (11:12):
And he has said that he is not aware of
any other groups, of which are many around the country
that are selling a legal products. He's not aware of
any of those groups being removed either.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
It's not just drugs, is it, though? Can you get
things like other nefarious items on Facebook marketplace?
Speaker 5 (11:36):
Well, according to my contact, the former drug dealer, who
says he's now out of the game, you can. You
can get firearms, including what he says is a hugely
popular drive towards three D printed guns. Now these weapons,
you may have heard about them before. You get a blueprint.
(11:58):
It goes into a printer and you can create parts
made from plastic that are capable of.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Firing real rounds.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
We know because I've done reports in the past few
months about police raising the alarm about a ramping up
of three D manufactured firearms in New Zealand and those
guns being linked to organized crime. There are documented cases.
My colleague Jared Savage has done extensive reporting on this
as well, where criminals, including in twenty twenty three or
(12:31):
five h one DEPORTI was arrested by police for manufacturing
three D printed pistols. I have been unable to verify
if in fact there are legitimate sellers of three D
guns on social media, but my source says absolutely there
are more and more of these firearms groups popping up,
(12:53):
he says, on social media where they show images and
video of three D printed guns and offer.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Them for sale.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Well, and do we call them ghost guns as well?
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Is that another here? Yeah, I mean it's just another term.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
Essentially, a ghost gun is anything that a firearm that
is privately manufactured that does not have a serial number
and therefore is untraceable. So a ghost gun could be
several parts of real firearms which are put together to
manufacture something that works, or a ghost gun could be
a three D printed guns that can't be traced.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
That's the sort of the stuff that really puts pressure
on organizations that aren't doing the right thing. And certainly,
as Minister of Justice, I'll be asking some tough questions
about what how this is happening, what's going on ultimately?
You know, decisions around prosecution are things for police and
authorities to make. A night count as a politician interfere
(13:51):
with that. But you know, on the surface of it,
it's outrageous.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
So have you heard from police or even ministers responsible
at all?
Speaker 5 (14:00):
Well, Look, I've spoken to police briefly and they have
sent me a statement about the illegal says in general
and they are saying that indeed, it is an increasing issue,
basically putting this down to know more digital use in
our worlds, that illegal sales are increasing. They're also saying
(14:22):
that the use of encrypted apps does make it more
difficult for police to investigate because they're end to end encrypted,
and saying that police are urging anyone in the public
who becomes aware of suspicious material being sold on social
media to get in touch because they say that they
will investigate. I interviewed last week on Herald Now the
(14:44):
Justice Minicipaul Goldsmith about the Facebook marketplace advertisements, the apparent
in action from Meta according to my contact in the
Bay of Plenty, and he said it was, on the
face of it, outrageous and that he would be talking
to Meta about this and seeking an explanation and asking,
(15:05):
in his words, some hard questions of why this multi
billion dollar tech company is not doing a better job
of restricting the sales of illegal drugs.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
It's pretty hard to get Meta to do anything, though,
isn't it.
Speaker 5 (15:19):
Well, Look, I don't work for Meta, but certainly from
my experience and when I inquired with Meta as to
why they had removed some listings. When I contacted them,
but why they did nothing when you know, my contact
Joe Blogs down in the Bay of Plenty, reported dozens
(15:39):
of these. They said, we're not sure why this didn't
result in anything happening. We're looking into that. That's all
I can.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Really explain that they have no.
Speaker 5 (15:49):
Real explanation for why they did not act on this
issue until I got in touch.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Thanks for joining us, Michael Pleasure.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzidherld dot co dot mzad. The Front Page is
produced by Ethan Sells and Richard Martin, who is also
our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe I'm to the Front
Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and
(16:23):
tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.