December 17, 2025 • 23 mins
It’s been revealed that Police ignored sex allegations against a former top cop, and instead prosecuted a woman for ‘revenge emails’.
The woman had emailed police, politicians, and newsrooms accusing former deputy police commissioner Jevon McSkimming of being a sexual predator.
The police watchdog has released a scathing 135-page report into how the allegations were treated, and how the “ambitions of a senior police officer were put above the interests of a vulnerable woman”.
Police Commissioner Richard Chambers said she was “ignored and badly let down”.
He has said it makes for “appalling reading” and the conduct of the former top brass is “inexcusable”.
He was briefed about the situation just two days before he stepped into the top role.
During the course of the investigation, detectives discovered McSkimming had used his work devices to search for pornography, including bestiality and child sex exploitation material, for at least five years.
The 52-year-old resigned in disgrace and was later charged with possession of objectionable material. He’s pleaded guilty last week and will be sentenced next month.
This whole ordeal has been indisputably damaging to one of the most important institutions in our country.
Later we’ll speak to HELP Auckland’s executive director Kathryn McPhillips about how to support anyone who has experienced sexual abuse.
But first, someone who knows all too well what it’s like to step up to those in power is Louise Nicholas.
She alleged police officers raped her as a teen in the 80s, this resulted in criminal trials, a Commission of Inquiry, and an officer being jailed for attempting to pervert the course of justice.
She is a campaigner for victims of sexual assault, and joins us now on The Front Page.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Editor/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Jane Yee
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Kyota at Chelsea Daniels here, host of the Front Page.
We're taking away breakover summer, but to help build the gap,
we're re issuing some of our most significant episodes of
twenty twenty five on behalf of the Front Page team.
Thanks for listening and we look forward to being back
with you on January twelfth, twenty twenty six. Kyota, I'm
(00:44):
Chelsea Daniels, and this is the Front Page, a daily
podcast presented by.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
The New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
It's been revealed that police ignored sex allegations against a
former top cop and instead prosecuted a woman for revenge emails.
The woman had emailed police, politicians and newsrooms accusing former
Deputy Police Commissioner Jevin mcskimming of being a sexual predator.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
The Police Watchdog.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Has released a scathing one hundred and thirty five page
report into how the allegations were treated and how the
ambitions of a senior police officer were put above the
interests of a vulnerable woman. Police Commissioner Richard Chambers has
said she was ignored and badly let down. He said
(01:37):
it makes for appolling reading and the conduct of the
former top brass is inexcusable. He was briefed about the
situation just two days before he stepped into the role,
and during the course of the investigation, detectives discovered mcskimming
had used his work devices to search for pornography, including
beast reality and child sex exploitation material for at least
(02:01):
five years. The fifty two year old resigned in disgrace
and was later charged. He's pleaded guilty last week and
will be sentenced next month. This whole ordeal has been
indisputably damaging to one of the most important institutions in
our country. Later, we'll speak to help Auckland's executive director,
(02:24):
Catherine McPhillips about how to support anyone who has experienced
sexual abuse. But first, someone who knows all too well
what it's like to step up to those in power
is Louise Nicholas. She alleged police officers raped her as
a teen in the eighties and this resulted in criminal trials,
(02:45):
a commission of inquiry and an officer being jailed for
attempting to pervert the course of justice. She is a
campaigner for victims of sexual assault and joins us Now
on the front page.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
First Off Louise. When you heard this news, what was
your first reaction?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Oh, just belief and then sadness and then anger and
a bit of deja booth thrown in amongst it all.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yeah, and that deja vuo that would bring back some
pretty heavy feelings for you hearing about that happening in
the police force again.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Yeah, yeah, And I think that's that's what it was.
That kind of like kicked me back into that time.
But I soon realized that this is it came across
ed this time police were actually doing something about it
(03:52):
and not dragging the chain or dragging it out or
you know, putting their hands up and saying nah, not
us sort of thing. They were on too, it being
straight away as soon as that IPCA report came out,
it was all on.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
So hearing Richard Chambers and Mark Mitchell speak, was that
quite a bit different than what you experienced.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Yeah? Absolutely absolutely. It was like, I wouldn't say a
breath of fresh air, but it just it gave me.
It made me feel this is actually going to be
okay in the long run because they're onto it, they're
acknowledging the harm, they're acknowledging the survivor they're acknowledging where
(04:36):
police have gone wrong, you know, with that team that
covered everything up. So for me, it was this is
going to be okay, bettersweet pretty much. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
When there are questions around public trust in police, I
suppose the response is usually something like, you know, these
kind of things happen. That's rotten apples in the basket.
But the majority, I mean, it'd be hitting the thousands
of sworn and unsworn police officers mind you pretty hard
at the moment.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
What's your first thought when you hear statements like that?
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Immediately go to those that are actually doing the work,
and doing the work really really well to a point
that you know, this is why our survivors are coming forward.
It's because of the the empathy, the integrity that take
the cop hat off and actually be human when they're
(05:34):
dealing with our survivors that are going through this. You know,
that just describes this this horror, and you've got a
copper sitting there in front of them, acknowledging the harm
and saying we will do what we can and you
can't be I wish that had happened way back in
(05:55):
the day, you know, but it is happening.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Now, the Independent Police Conduct Authority did an investigation, I
suppose whether the allegations were true, and that's not their
role here, but it did find police ignored the woman
at the center of this, delayed the investigation, and accepted
mixed Skimming's version of versions of events. What message do
you think that that sends anyone kind of weighing up
(06:22):
at the moment whether or not to come forward about
something like this.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Well, I think what we've got to remember it was
senior staff that took control of that investigation and when
somebody from you know, underneath that came in and challenged
what they were doing. That to me is the hope
that that New Zealanders need to remember that there's always
(06:46):
somebody within the New Zealand place. They've got you back.
They absolutely have. And when I heard that, actually how
it all unfolded, I thought, yeah, that you've got people
that aren't the bad eggs, that are the good people
that are that are helping our communities. And so for
(07:08):
me it was a revelation of thoughts.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
That something's actually happening.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Yeah, absolutely, that somebody's actually you know, taking the ball
by the wounds and bringing the people that are doing
the bad to account.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah, I did find sollace in the fact that despite
I suppose, the efforts to keep this all covered up,
there were a few staffers who made sure that it
made the light of day.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Judith Collins said it herself when she said this was.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
All was some sort of group think going on.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
But there were thankfully at least three people, lower ranked
people who stood up for what they knew was the
right thing. And one of them sent this matter of
the IPCA as a complaint. And without her work and
their work of the others, this might never have seen the.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Light of day.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Do you wish that there were some junior staffers, a
woman there, lower in the ranks there in your situation.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Yeah, instead of a reporter what it was, you know,
And that's what it took somebody within the media to
acknowledge and investigate and show that there was all this
corruptness going on and all this harm being done to
not only the South but to ow many others. And
(08:33):
he took the ball by the horns and did something
about it. And it's kind of like it's mirrored with
the police that you know, the lower ranked police officers
that did exactly the same thing that is what the
change has been. They believed without a doubt. Absolutely they
(08:55):
saw that process and protocol and everything. You know, it's
standard in how to investigate a disclosure of that type
and that was just shoved under and yeah, they did everything.
They questioned why this wasn't happening, why are you doing this?
And so because of that it brought it to the
(09:19):
light of day.
Speaker 5 (09:25):
We will continue to do what is needed to ensure
this does not happen again. Police have also accepted all
the recommendations in the report. The Police Commissioner will speak
to that in more details shortly. The New Zealand Police
enjoys strong public trust and confidence. It is imperative that
(09:47):
this trust is maintained. That comes with strong action on
the part of the government. Finally, I do want to
stress that these adverse findings should not be seen as
a reflection on our police service as a whole.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
When you look back at what you've been through with
the police in the past, obviously from the eighties until
the early two thousands up until now, and you now
work with police, you with the sexual assault advocacy work
that you do, did you personally find it difficult to
(10:32):
regain that trust well for the police.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
And in the beginning, absolutely I didn't trust them, and
I told them that to these basis, especially going through
the thought process and that you know, they were wanting
me to make another statement to do this, and I
kept saying, no, I'm not doing that. I don't trust you,
bastards was my words. But it's been over. It was
(10:59):
a huge learning for myself and it was a conclusion
that I came to that it wasn't the New Zealand
police that hurt me. It was individuals with them. And
it's the same for this as well. And that's why
I'm advocating on you know, on behalf of those police
people that I work alongside, that my team works alongside
(11:21):
every single day right across the country, is that we're
advocating for you because we know that you're doing the
best that you can for our survivors. And so it
wasn't you as an individual who did what that senior
do up the ranks. And that's what people need to understand.
(11:41):
Don't define what we're skimming and those others did and say, well,
every cops are saying no, no, it's not.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
If there is someone out there right now struggling and
they want to come forward with any allegation something's happened
to them.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
They've survived something horrific and they.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Felt knocked back by what's happened, and when the story
came out, they kind of took a step back. I
suppose what would you tell them to take that couple
of steps forward?
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yep, please take that couple of steps forward. There are
agents these right across organizations right across New Zealand that
can support you. And the core thing that we have
worked hard alongside police with is how do we get
that first disclosure? How do we get our survivors to
trust in the police and in the process. And it's
(12:39):
quite simple. It's like a meet and greet. So we
meet with a detective who is in the adult Sexual
Assault team or in the child protection team or you know,
and we have that conversation. And we have done that
hundreds of times, and not one survivors turned around and said,
I'm not doing this Because it's about bringing together and
(13:03):
helping each other. The police officer and the survivor and
the FARNO actually understand what this process is all about.
And it's in a safe place. It's not at the
police station. It's in a neutral area, and yeah, that's
what works. If you're unsure, pick up the phone. Whether
(13:28):
it's you know, rape crisis, whether it's the Luise Nicholas trust,
it doesn't matter. Oh and then ask the information and
guidance because we're there to guide. We're there to advocate
on your behalf to do what we can because we
know we have that lived experience, We understand the trauma,
we understand that, you know, taking that keep forward into
(13:52):
Actually I want to tell my story. How do I
do that?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Do you remember what was going through your head before
you told your story?
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Yeah, I absolutely it was I can't because I need
to protect everyone around me. No one's going to believe me.
Look who I'm up against. You know, I'm going to
be telling the story of a rape by members of
the New Zealand Police who the help going to believe me.
(14:20):
But it was the thought I had with my family,
especially my husband, who said that you can. You can
do this because everything that has happened to you is
not your fault. And that's what our survivors need to
understand and appreciate that you now have an opportunity to
right the wrongs of the past, and for me, when
(14:43):
I talk to our survivors, it's I always say to them,
it's not about the destination, it's the journey. And regardless
of the outcome, if it gets to court, regardless of
the outcome, you have told you have held that person
to account. You have taken back the power that was
(15:05):
taken from you. And it's amazing how our survivors go
into the process with their heads down and they walk
out the other side going I did it. I did it. Absolutely.
You can absolutely as our justice system and the way
(15:25):
we have to go through this process. Okay, no, it's
not easy. I'm not gonna lie. But at the end
of the day, all you can do is tell you
the truth and it doesn't matter what anyone else throws
at you. You can stand tall, you tell your truth
and it's all you've got to do.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Thanks so much for joining us, Louise.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
No worries at all. Thank you for having men help.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Auckland was set up in nineteen eighty two and has
been a specialist provider of sexual abuse support services in
Tamickee Makodo ever since. Executive Director Katherine McPhillips is a
clinical psychologist and joins us.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Now on the front page.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
So, Catherine, what was your first reaction when you heard
the details.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
About the woman at the center of all this.
Speaker 6 (16:19):
Well, you know, first reaction is to feel empathy for her,
to be honest, she's been through a terrible ordeal over
some years.
Speaker 7 (16:27):
Through all of this.
Speaker 6 (16:30):
But I have to say, it's not an uncommon story,
not in terms of you know, the nature of the
role of the person who was hurting her or you know,
all of the investigation that followed, but certainly men in
positions of power, it's not uncommon for us to hear
kind of stories where women are victimized over quite a
(16:53):
period of time and try to get out of those
situations or alert other people to it and don't get listen.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
To How do you think sexual assault survivors felt at
hearing about this case, Well.
Speaker 6 (17:06):
You know, really concerned that it will diminish people's trust
in the police and make people feel you know, even
more unsafe to go and report to police.
Speaker 7 (17:17):
It's a really hard thing.
Speaker 6 (17:18):
To do to do that anyway, and this kind of
you know, finding out about this kind of thing having
occurred just you know, notches that down. And to be honest,
we've you know, New Zealand's been quite slow to get
up our reporting and you know we've only just in
the last year or so been getting those reporting rapes up.
Speaker 7 (17:36):
So you know, my.
Speaker 6 (17:37):
Concern is that it will lead people to feel concerned
that they won't be listened to, they won't be heard,
and you know that they'll be blamed for what's happened
to them. And so yeah, I think it's really important
that people understand that there are support services in place,
so services like help where I am, there's services right
(17:57):
across the country. So if you go to a police
station to make a complaint and sexual assault, you know
that there is an independent support person there with you
through that process and that those services available to you
for as long as you need them. And you know
that's a you know, we're there to ensure that or
(18:17):
kind of to promote people well being through the process.
But that certainly can involve talking with the police if
things are going astray. You know, we work with police
every day and so we have those kind of relationships
where we are able to ask, oh.
Speaker 7 (18:32):
You know, why is that happening, and you know, be
in that place to support people.
Speaker 6 (18:36):
So I really want people to know that you're not
only trusting the police if you want to make those complaints,
but there are independent support people there as well.
Speaker 8 (18:52):
I want to apologize to the woman at the center
of this for the repeated early failures in following the
proper processes investigating this matter by those at such a
senior level of police. You had asked for help, you
would badly let down. That was unacceptable.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
What are some of the biggest barriers in general for
people to come forward other than I mean, I guess
it would be really scary going to police in the
first place.
Speaker 7 (19:22):
Hey, yeah, it's really scary.
Speaker 6 (19:24):
But you know big barrier is that you don't expect
to be believed often. You know, that's the nature of grooming,
that's the nature of sexual violence, and you know, that's
why it's so important that people who are responding to
complaints really do understand the dynamics that a lot of time,
what that grooming does is, you know, the person causing
(19:44):
harm will do things and say things to diminish the
person or you know, as appears to have occurred in
this situation.
Speaker 7 (19:53):
They groom the environment that they're in.
Speaker 6 (19:56):
So, you know, an example of that here is that
you know that you talk negatively about the person before
they've even made a complaint, so that when that complaint
comes in.
Speaker 7 (20:06):
The person isn't believed.
Speaker 6 (20:07):
You know, that's a really really common dynamic of sexual violence,
and so you know, we really need to make sure
that the people responsible for responding to complaints, you know,
are always informed about those dynamics. Certainly, the you know,
the sex assault police teams at the front line are
informed about those but you know, one you know, reading
the IPCA report, you have to question where the police
(20:29):
hire up.
Speaker 7 (20:30):
We're well informed about those dynamics.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
If someone was to come to you for advice and
they had been sitting on something and they were ready
to come forward, but then they see something like this
happening and it kind of you know, pushes them back
a little bit, what kind of advice would you give them?
Speaker 6 (20:45):
Yeah, I mean, so we would talk to them about
what they needed to feel safe.
Speaker 7 (20:49):
I mean, it's always their decision.
Speaker 6 (20:50):
There's no pressure from us about whether you report or
don't report, because it really has to be the.
Speaker 7 (20:54):
Individual's decision on that.
Speaker 6 (20:57):
But really, I mean the kinds of things that we
would do is talk with them through their worries, talk
with them about how those worries might be addressed. You know,
if they wanted to make that complaint, then we would
make sure that we were with them and you know,
fully able to support them through the process.
Speaker 7 (21:13):
But it really is an individual decision, and.
Speaker 6 (21:17):
You know, I think that that can be hard sometimes
for friends and family to understand.
Speaker 7 (21:21):
They're like, well, why don't you're reporting, why't you're reporting?
But it is a tough process.
Speaker 6 (21:25):
You have to talk about things which can feel shaming
and that are very intimate, and you know, the reality is,
you know, we see from things like the Gender Attitudes
Survey for example, you know there are lots of New
Zealanders who do don't blame people who are victims of
sexual assaultants. So there is always that wondering and so
(21:47):
you know, people really have to make that decision themselves
about whether they want to go forward with a complaint
or not.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
And I suppose psychologically as well, bringing up those things
and speaking about them, I guess people may not understand
that PTSD you actually feel those emotions. You feel like
you did at the time that it happens. So it
doesn't matter whether it's a couple of years, a couple
of months or a couple of decades afterwards, right.
Speaker 6 (22:10):
Yes, absolutely, absolutely, so thinking about it can you know,
we call that an internal trigger that can.
Speaker 7 (22:16):
Take you back to those feelings.
Speaker 6 (22:19):
But certainly being in a situation where somebody's asking you
about it can put you back in that place, or
even if there's dynamics going on that just remind you
of those experiences. And so you know, that's the reason
for those independent support people being there is that we
can help people get through that process keeping their well
being as intact as possible.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
And I suppose Fano and friends can come to you
as well for advice if they have somebody close to
them who has experienced this or is going through something
like this.
Speaker 6 (22:49):
Absolutely, we welcome our friends and Fano coming to us
because you know, we're in people's lives for a short
period of time.
Speaker 7 (22:57):
Your friends and your family are around you, you know, long.
Speaker 6 (23:00):
Term, so the better equipped that they are to support survivors,
the better.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Thank you so much for joining us, Catherine.
Speaker 7 (23:07):
Thanks Chelsea.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
That said, for this episode of the Front Page, you
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Herald dot co dot Nz. The Front Page is produced
by Jane Yee and Richard Martin, who is also our editor.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Subscribe to the front page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look
behind the headlines.
Kyota at Chelsea Daniels here, host of the Front Page.
We're taking away breakover summer, but to help build the gap,
we're re issuing some of our most significant episodes of
twenty twenty five on behalf of the Front Page team.
Thanks for listening and we look forward to being back
with you on January twelfth, twenty twenty six. Kyota, I'm
(00:44):
Chelsea Daniels, and this is the Front Page, a daily
podcast presented by.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
The New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
It's been revealed that police ignored sex allegations against a
former top cop and instead prosecuted a woman for revenge emails.
The woman had emailed police, politicians and newsrooms accusing former
Deputy Police Commissioner Jevin mcskimming of being a sexual predator.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
The Police Watchdog.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Has released a scathing one hundred and thirty five page
report into how the allegations were treated and how the
ambitions of a senior police officer were put above the
interests of a vulnerable woman. Police Commissioner Richard Chambers has
said she was ignored and badly let down. He said
(01:37):
it makes for appolling reading and the conduct of the
former top brass is inexcusable. He was briefed about the
situation just two days before he stepped into the role,
and during the course of the investigation, detectives discovered mcskimming
had used his work devices to search for pornography, including
beast reality and child sex exploitation material for at least
(02:01):
five years. The fifty two year old resigned in disgrace
and was later charged. He's pleaded guilty last week and
will be sentenced next month. This whole ordeal has been
indisputably damaging to one of the most important institutions in
our country. Later, we'll speak to help Auckland's executive director,
(02:24):
Catherine McPhillips about how to support anyone who has experienced
sexual abuse. But first, someone who knows all too well
what it's like to step up to those in power
is Louise Nicholas. She alleged police officers raped her as
a teen in the eighties and this resulted in criminal trials,
(02:45):
a commission of inquiry and an officer being jailed for
attempting to pervert the course of justice. She is a
campaigner for victims of sexual assault and joins us Now
on the front page.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
First Off Louise. When you heard this news, what was
your first reaction?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Oh, just belief and then sadness and then anger and
a bit of deja booth thrown in amongst it all.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yeah, and that deja vuo that would bring back some
pretty heavy feelings for you hearing about that happening in
the police force again.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Yeah, yeah, And I think that's that's what it was.
That kind of like kicked me back into that time.
But I soon realized that this is it came across
ed this time police were actually doing something about it
(03:52):
and not dragging the chain or dragging it out or
you know, putting their hands up and saying nah, not
us sort of thing. They were on too, it being
straight away as soon as that IPCA report came out,
it was all on.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
So hearing Richard Chambers and Mark Mitchell speak, was that
quite a bit different than what you experienced.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Yeah? Absolutely absolutely. It was like, I wouldn't say a
breath of fresh air, but it just it gave me.
It made me feel this is actually going to be
okay in the long run because they're onto it, they're
acknowledging the harm, they're acknowledging the survivor they're acknowledging where
(04:36):
police have gone wrong, you know, with that team that
covered everything up. So for me, it was this is
going to be okay, bettersweet pretty much. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
When there are questions around public trust in police, I
suppose the response is usually something like, you know, these
kind of things happen. That's rotten apples in the basket.
But the majority, I mean, it'd be hitting the thousands
of sworn and unsworn police officers mind you pretty hard
at the moment.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
What's your first thought when you hear statements like that?
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Immediately go to those that are actually doing the work,
and doing the work really really well to a point
that you know, this is why our survivors are coming forward.
It's because of the the empathy, the integrity that take
the cop hat off and actually be human when they're
(05:34):
dealing with our survivors that are going through this. You know,
that just describes this this horror, and you've got a
copper sitting there in front of them, acknowledging the harm
and saying we will do what we can and you
can't be I wish that had happened way back in
(05:55):
the day, you know, but it is happening.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Now, the Independent Police Conduct Authority did an investigation, I
suppose whether the allegations were true, and that's not their
role here, but it did find police ignored the woman
at the center of this, delayed the investigation, and accepted
mixed Skimming's version of versions of events. What message do
you think that that sends anyone kind of weighing up
(06:22):
at the moment whether or not to come forward about
something like this.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Well, I think what we've got to remember it was
senior staff that took control of that investigation and when
somebody from you know, underneath that came in and challenged
what they were doing. That to me is the hope
that that New Zealanders need to remember that there's always
(06:46):
somebody within the New Zealand place. They've got you back.
They absolutely have. And when I heard that, actually how
it all unfolded, I thought, yeah, that you've got people
that aren't the bad eggs, that are the good people
that are that are helping our communities. And so for
(07:08):
me it was a revelation of thoughts.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
That something's actually happening.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Yeah, absolutely, that somebody's actually you know, taking the ball
by the wounds and bringing the people that are doing
the bad to account.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah, I did find sollace in the fact that despite
I suppose, the efforts to keep this all covered up,
there were a few staffers who made sure that it
made the light of day.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Judith Collins said it herself when she said this was.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
All was some sort of group think going on.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
But there were thankfully at least three people, lower ranked
people who stood up for what they knew was the
right thing. And one of them sent this matter of
the IPCA as a complaint. And without her work and
their work of the others, this might never have seen the.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Light of day.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Do you wish that there were some junior staffers, a
woman there, lower in the ranks there in your situation.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Yeah, instead of a reporter what it was, you know,
And that's what it took somebody within the media to
acknowledge and investigate and show that there was all this
corruptness going on and all this harm being done to
not only the South but to ow many others. And
(08:33):
he took the ball by the horns and did something
about it. And it's kind of like it's mirrored with
the police that you know, the lower ranked police officers
that did exactly the same thing that is what the
change has been. They believed without a doubt. Absolutely they
(08:55):
saw that process and protocol and everything. You know, it's
standard in how to investigate a disclosure of that type
and that was just shoved under and yeah, they did everything.
They questioned why this wasn't happening, why are you doing this?
And so because of that it brought it to the
(09:19):
light of day.
Speaker 5 (09:25):
We will continue to do what is needed to ensure
this does not happen again. Police have also accepted all
the recommendations in the report. The Police Commissioner will speak
to that in more details shortly. The New Zealand Police
enjoys strong public trust and confidence. It is imperative that
(09:47):
this trust is maintained. That comes with strong action on
the part of the government. Finally, I do want to
stress that these adverse findings should not be seen as
a reflection on our police service as a whole.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
When you look back at what you've been through with
the police in the past, obviously from the eighties until
the early two thousands up until now, and you now
work with police, you with the sexual assault advocacy work
that you do, did you personally find it difficult to
(10:32):
regain that trust well for the police.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
And in the beginning, absolutely I didn't trust them, and
I told them that to these basis, especially going through
the thought process and that you know, they were wanting
me to make another statement to do this, and I
kept saying, no, I'm not doing that. I don't trust you,
bastards was my words. But it's been over. It was
(10:59):
a huge learning for myself and it was a conclusion
that I came to that it wasn't the New Zealand
police that hurt me. It was individuals with them. And
it's the same for this as well. And that's why
I'm advocating on you know, on behalf of those police
people that I work alongside, that my team works alongside
(11:21):
every single day right across the country, is that we're
advocating for you because we know that you're doing the
best that you can for our survivors. And so it
wasn't you as an individual who did what that senior
do up the ranks. And that's what people need to understand.
(11:41):
Don't define what we're skimming and those others did and say, well,
every cops are saying no, no, it's not.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
If there is someone out there right now struggling and
they want to come forward with any allegation something's happened
to them.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
They've survived something horrific and they.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Felt knocked back by what's happened, and when the story
came out, they kind of took a step back. I
suppose what would you tell them to take that couple
of steps forward?
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yep, please take that couple of steps forward. There are
agents these right across organizations right across New Zealand that
can support you. And the core thing that we have
worked hard alongside police with is how do we get
that first disclosure? How do we get our survivors to
trust in the police and in the process. And it's
(12:39):
quite simple. It's like a meet and greet. So we
meet with a detective who is in the adult Sexual
Assault team or in the child protection team or you know,
and we have that conversation. And we have done that
hundreds of times, and not one survivors turned around and said,
I'm not doing this Because it's about bringing together and
(13:03):
helping each other. The police officer and the survivor and
the FARNO actually understand what this process is all about.
And it's in a safe place. It's not at the
police station. It's in a neutral area, and yeah, that's
what works. If you're unsure, pick up the phone. Whether
(13:28):
it's you know, rape crisis, whether it's the Luise Nicholas trust,
it doesn't matter. Oh and then ask the information and
guidance because we're there to guide. We're there to advocate
on your behalf to do what we can because we
know we have that lived experience, We understand the trauma,
we understand that, you know, taking that keep forward into
(13:52):
Actually I want to tell my story. How do I
do that?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Do you remember what was going through your head before
you told your story?
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Yeah, I absolutely it was I can't because I need
to protect everyone around me. No one's going to believe me.
Look who I'm up against. You know, I'm going to
be telling the story of a rape by members of
the New Zealand Police who the help going to believe me.
(14:20):
But it was the thought I had with my family,
especially my husband, who said that you can. You can
do this because everything that has happened to you is
not your fault. And that's what our survivors need to
understand and appreciate that you now have an opportunity to
right the wrongs of the past, and for me, when
(14:43):
I talk to our survivors, it's I always say to them,
it's not about the destination, it's the journey. And regardless
of the outcome, if it gets to court, regardless of
the outcome, you have told you have held that person
to account. You have taken back the power that was
(15:05):
taken from you. And it's amazing how our survivors go
into the process with their heads down and they walk
out the other side going I did it. I did it. Absolutely.
You can absolutely as our justice system and the way
(15:25):
we have to go through this process. Okay, no, it's
not easy. I'm not gonna lie. But at the end
of the day, all you can do is tell you
the truth and it doesn't matter what anyone else throws
at you. You can stand tall, you tell your truth
and it's all you've got to do.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Thanks so much for joining us, Louise.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
No worries at all. Thank you for having men help.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Auckland was set up in nineteen eighty two and has
been a specialist provider of sexual abuse support services in
Tamickee Makodo ever since. Executive Director Katherine McPhillips is a
clinical psychologist and joins us.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Now on the front page.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
So, Catherine, what was your first reaction when you heard
the details.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
About the woman at the center of all this.
Speaker 6 (16:19):
Well, you know, first reaction is to feel empathy for her,
to be honest, she's been through a terrible ordeal over
some years.
Speaker 7 (16:27):
Through all of this.
Speaker 6 (16:30):
But I have to say, it's not an uncommon story,
not in terms of you know, the nature of the
role of the person who was hurting her or you know,
all of the investigation that followed, but certainly men in
positions of power, it's not uncommon for us to hear
kind of stories where women are victimized over quite a
(16:53):
period of time and try to get out of those
situations or alert other people to it and don't get listen.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
To How do you think sexual assault survivors felt at
hearing about this case, Well.
Speaker 6 (17:06):
You know, really concerned that it will diminish people's trust
in the police and make people feel you know, even
more unsafe to go and report to police.
Speaker 7 (17:17):
It's a really hard thing.
Speaker 6 (17:18):
To do to do that anyway, and this kind of
you know, finding out about this kind of thing having
occurred just you know, notches that down. And to be honest,
we've you know, New Zealand's been quite slow to get
up our reporting and you know we've only just in
the last year or so been getting those reporting rapes up.
Speaker 7 (17:36):
So you know, my.
Speaker 6 (17:37):
Concern is that it will lead people to feel concerned
that they won't be listened to, they won't be heard,
and you know that they'll be blamed for what's happened
to them. And so yeah, I think it's really important
that people understand that there are support services in place,
so services like help where I am, there's services right
(17:57):
across the country. So if you go to a police
station to make a complaint and sexual assault, you know
that there is an independent support person there with you
through that process and that those services available to you
for as long as you need them. And you know
that's a you know, we're there to ensure that or
(18:17):
kind of to promote people well being through the process.
But that certainly can involve talking with the police if
things are going astray. You know, we work with police
every day and so we have those kind of relationships
where we are able to ask, oh.
Speaker 7 (18:32):
You know, why is that happening, and you know, be
in that place to support people.
Speaker 6 (18:36):
So I really want people to know that you're not
only trusting the police if you want to make those complaints,
but there are independent support people there as well.
Speaker 8 (18:52):
I want to apologize to the woman at the center
of this for the repeated early failures in following the
proper processes investigating this matter by those at such a
senior level of police. You had asked for help, you
would badly let down. That was unacceptable.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
What are some of the biggest barriers in general for
people to come forward other than I mean, I guess
it would be really scary going to police in the
first place.
Speaker 7 (19:22):
Hey, yeah, it's really scary.
Speaker 6 (19:24):
But you know big barrier is that you don't expect
to be believed often. You know, that's the nature of grooming,
that's the nature of sexual violence, and you know, that's
why it's so important that people who are responding to
complaints really do understand the dynamics that a lot of time,
what that grooming does is, you know, the person causing
(19:44):
harm will do things and say things to diminish the
person or you know, as appears to have occurred in
this situation.
Speaker 7 (19:53):
They groom the environment that they're in.
Speaker 6 (19:56):
So, you know, an example of that here is that
you know that you talk negatively about the person before
they've even made a complaint, so that when that complaint
comes in.
Speaker 7 (20:06):
The person isn't believed.
Speaker 6 (20:07):
You know, that's a really really common dynamic of sexual violence,
and so you know, we really need to make sure
that the people responsible for responding to complaints, you know,
are always informed about those dynamics. Certainly, the you know,
the sex assault police teams at the front line are
informed about those but you know, one you know, reading
the IPCA report, you have to question where the police
(20:29):
hire up.
Speaker 7 (20:30):
We're well informed about those dynamics.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
If someone was to come to you for advice and
they had been sitting on something and they were ready
to come forward, but then they see something like this
happening and it kind of you know, pushes them back
a little bit, what kind of advice would you give them?
Speaker 6 (20:45):
Yeah, I mean, so we would talk to them about
what they needed to feel safe.
Speaker 7 (20:49):
I mean, it's always their decision.
Speaker 6 (20:50):
There's no pressure from us about whether you report or
don't report, because it really has to be the.
Speaker 7 (20:54):
Individual's decision on that.
Speaker 6 (20:57):
But really, I mean the kinds of things that we
would do is talk with them through their worries, talk
with them about how those worries might be addressed. You know,
if they wanted to make that complaint, then we would
make sure that we were with them and you know,
fully able to support them through the process.
Speaker 7 (21:13):
But it really is an individual decision, and.
Speaker 6 (21:17):
You know, I think that that can be hard sometimes
for friends and family to understand.
Speaker 7 (21:21):
They're like, well, why don't you're reporting, why't you're reporting?
But it is a tough process.
Speaker 6 (21:25):
You have to talk about things which can feel shaming
and that are very intimate, and you know, the reality is,
you know, we see from things like the Gender Attitudes
Survey for example, you know there are lots of New
Zealanders who do don't blame people who are victims of
sexual assaultants. So there is always that wondering and so
(21:47):
you know, people really have to make that decision themselves
about whether they want to go forward with a complaint
or not.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
And I suppose psychologically as well, bringing up those things
and speaking about them, I guess people may not understand
that PTSD you actually feel those emotions. You feel like
you did at the time that it happens. So it
doesn't matter whether it's a couple of years, a couple
of months or a couple of decades afterwards, right.
Speaker 6 (22:10):
Yes, absolutely, absolutely, so thinking about it can you know,
we call that an internal trigger that can.
Speaker 7 (22:16):
Take you back to those feelings.
Speaker 6 (22:19):
But certainly being in a situation where somebody's asking you
about it can put you back in that place, or
even if there's dynamics going on that just remind you
of those experiences. And so you know, that's the reason
for those independent support people being there is that we
can help people get through that process keeping their well
being as intact as possible.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
And I suppose Fano and friends can come to you
as well for advice if they have somebody close to
them who has experienced this or is going through something
like this.
Speaker 6 (22:49):
Absolutely, we welcome our friends and Fano coming to us
because you know, we're in people's lives for a short
period of time.
Speaker 7 (22:57):
Your friends and your family are around you, you know, long.
Speaker 6 (23:00):
Term, so the better equipped that they are to support survivors,
the better.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Thank you so much for joining us, Catherine.
Speaker 7 (23:07):
Thanks Chelsea.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
That said, for this episode of the Front Page, you
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Herald dot co dot Nz. The Front Page is produced
by Jane Yee and Richard Martin, who is also our editor.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Subscribe to the front page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look
behind the headlines.
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