December 15, 2025 • 24 mins
There are more than 9,000 gang members in New Zealand, and thousands more associates.
The coalition government from the get-go promised a crackdown on gangs – they've banned gang insignia in public, handed police greater powers, and created laws to disrupt get-togethers. But, is that all enough?
Jared Savage has been a journalist at the NZ Herald for about 20 years, with a focus on organised crime.
His latest book, Underworld, is the third in a series of he’s released since 2020 – and the latest instalment delves deeper into our country’s dark underbelly of gangs, guns, drugs, and money – lots and lots of money.
Today on The Front Page, Savage joins us to discuss the rising threat of organised crime in New Zealand.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Editor/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Ethan Sills
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Kyota at Chelsea Daniels here, host of the Front Page.
We're taking away breakover summer, but to help build the gap,
we're re issuing some of our most significant episodes of
twenty twenty five on behalf of the Front Page team.
Thanks for listening and we look forward to being back
with you on January twelfth, twenty twenty six. Kyota, I'm
(00:44):
Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a daily
podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. There are more
than nine thousand gang members in New Zealand and thousands
more associates. The Coalition government from the get go promised
a crackdown on gangs that banned gang insignior and public,
(01:07):
handed police greater powers, and created laws to disrupt get togethers.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
But is that all enough?
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Jared Savage has been a journalist at the New Zealand
Herald for a bit twenty years, with a focus on
organized crime. His latest book, Underworld, is the third in
a series he's released since twenty twenty, and the latest
installment delves deeper into our country's dark underbelly of gangs, guns, drugs,
(01:36):
and money, lots and lots of money. Today on the
front page, Savage joins us to discuss the rising threat of.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Organized crime in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So Jared, it's not a giveaway, I reckon when I
say your latest read starts by saying the situation is
now even more dangerous and the stakes are higher, and
that it's life and death out there.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Can you tell me how things have escalated?
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Well, I think that comes down to, first and foremost,
the huge amounts of drugs which are coming into country.
When I first started reporting to the hero on this
sort of fifteen nine years ago, you know, one kilo
of meath was a big deal and it was a
front page story, and you know, like literally a front
page story. And these days, you know, even the smallest
(02:33):
of drug dealers would have far more than a kilo in.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
The back of the car.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
We're talking imports of four or five, six, seven hundred kilograms.
Not only we've seen those big busts happening regularly, almost routinely,
it seems to have had quite a like those big
busy having quite a negligible impact on how much drugs
are actually being consumed. And we can see that through
(02:58):
the wastewater testing. You know, for a long time the
wastewater test testing showed we were consuming around about fifteen
kilos of meth and phetamine per week.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Then last year sort of about from this, about this
time last.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Year, it was more than double, from about fifteen to
forty kilos per every single week, and it dropped down
a little bit by the end of the year. I
guess it shows that we've now reached a typic point
where we have we're on the map now globally for
for organized crime. Huge amounts of drugs have been sent
here regularly, and it's a real uphill battle for the
(03:34):
police and customs and other law enforcement agencies to really
investigate and stop these syndicates.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
I guess when it comes to gangs and the underworld,
the public's general fear of gangs and stuff like that
arguably led to or contributed to a changing government. Right,
you've got national's hardline on law and order policies, you've
got the crackdown on gang crime, things like that.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Is the public right to be afraid?
Speaker 4 (04:05):
I don't think the public and I think people listening
to this should.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Be afraid of going home or walking to you know,
doing going about their daily lives. In terms of the
violence and the conflict that we were seeing quite regularly
there a couple of year years ago. You know, normally
sort of gang an organized crime sort of conflict is
between is between gangs, it's not between If you're an
ncent member of the public, just go and make your
business not part of that world. I don't really think
(04:30):
you're in a huge immediate danger. But what what does
happen in those sort of situations, which can be quite kay,
quite fluid, is that people get caught in the crossfire.
And there have been instances of that in recent years.
I mean, there's an unsolved homicide at the moment sort
of from out sort of East Auckland Way where a
(04:50):
grandfather was sort of gunned down on his doorstep and
a sort of a execution style drive by targeted shooting.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
Well, he wasn't the intended target of that.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Somebody else, another member of his family was, and you
know who was involved in that world. So like this
is those are the sort of the untender consequences that
can happen. But generally speaking we're not in danger of
being heard or sort of killed or oiled into the violence.
But sort of that does have an unsettling impact on
(05:23):
society and obviously the more drugs that are out there
that contributes to other wider social.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
Issues which you know, indirectly do affect all of us.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Now. I know that people love to blame the Aussie
five ozho ones for the escalation in gang problems, right,
but New Zealand has always had a pretty narly gang land.
I mean, you've got the common cero's, the Mongols and
banditos coming in shore, but then you've got the Mongol
mob and Black Power and all those homegrown ones as well.
(05:57):
But how has the introduction of Aussie gangs changed the
game New.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Zealand it is always had an entrenched sort of gang
lifestyle going back to the nineteen fifties, Younger Mom and
Black Power for example, we're born out of abuse of
state here and sort of wider socioeconomic sort of problems
were happening and basically bands of young men coming together
to sort of in a rebellious way, and there was
(06:26):
a lot of sort of one time or disorganized crime
that came out of it. Back instid of the late
nineteen nineties and early two thousands, myth and Vetnamenon was
introduced to the country and we saw for the first
time a real organized crime element coming out of coming
out of the gangs that were already here. You know,
members of the head Hunters for example, or the House
Angels motorcycle gangs were.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Heavily involved in the myth trade.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
And then we've seen in the past twenty years since
that time an evolution where you know, those gangs were
working with international partners to bring drugs into the country.
What has really changed in the past ten years, in particular, unfortunately,
is you know, members of Australian motorcycle gangs being deported
(07:12):
here and establishing chapters or I mean you can call
them branch offices really of genuinely true the international organized
crime groups.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
And I think that's that's the difference.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
They had genuine connections to supply lines overseas, not just
in Asia but sort of the South America's, Mexico, the US,
and that's really led to this influx we talked about before,
the one kilo drug bus turning into five hundred kilo
drug bus, that that that's no coincidence of that happened
around them at the same time that we started seeing
(07:45):
the deportees come here. They've also brought us sort of
a more sort of brazen approach, more sort of arrogant
approach to the underworld. And what that's led to, you know,
more shootings and violence, but also kind of a escalation
or a tip for tat. So the groups they were
already here have up their game in response to how
(08:08):
the Australian interlopers have sort of conducted their business.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
So we're seeing things ratchet up.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
It's not just the Aussie gangs now that are doing
these big imports, but they were the mines that sort
of kick things off.
Speaker 5 (08:24):
As I've said before, gangs are not nice people. Those
opposing our gang policies often take them as very fine
community organizations. Well I say to you, they are not rotary.
They inflict serious, serious harm on our communities through peddling
illegal drugs and are responsible, frankly for a vast proportion
of our serious violence that happens on our streets.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
As I say, it is.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
One quarter of one percent of the Zealand's population, creating
one fifth of all of our serious violent crime and homicides,
and one quarter of all our firearm offences.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
And while we're on the subject of international syndicates, I
guess when we talk about the underworld here and gangs
and stuff. We think of the patches, we think of
the bikes, we think of the lambos and the leather
and all that kind of stuff. But what I found
interesting from all of your reporting, Jared, is shining a
light on, say, the Asian syndicates that are working in
(09:22):
New Zealand and the history here. You mentioned that meth
really grew in popularity and really had a foothold in
New Zealand society in the early two thousands, But how
have the Asian syndicates been involved?
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Yeah, and so you know, Asian organized crime has had
a foothold here again again for a long time, but
they became increasingly important back in sort of the early
two thousands, working in with the motorcycle gangs, I suppose
because a lot of the Asian organized crime groups had
access to either the ingredients for me amphetamine or finished
(09:58):
product themselves, either back in China or Southeast Asia.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
Where so back.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Two thousand in the two thousands, they were the ones
that were able to supply and source their material and
bring it into the gangs here who then distributed amongst
the community. So it was like a business a business
relationship there and that's that's carried on to this day.
Metha feta meat production is still largely sourced out of
Southeast Asia, although Mexico and other areas as well, so
(10:27):
those sort of Asian organized crime groups are still a
huge player in the scene here. It's like, yes, Gang
moorcycle gangs in particular are often the sort of the
visual face of organized crime here because you know, they're
so you know, identifiable in many regards, whereas the Asian kind.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Of groups have kind of gone under the radar a
little bit.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
But there's also you know a lot of strong events
and to show that Mexican cartels are seending large amount
of drunks here as another rival supplier to the Asian groups,
as well as sort of cocaine coming out of Central
and South America as well, So it's all part of
a wider ecosystem. They're all working together to make lots
of money. Largely those those big groups overseas are interested
(11:09):
in a small market like New Zealand because we are
a small market, but we're a very lucrative market because
of the margins that can be made even off the
smaller amounts of drugs. So it's certainly a global a
global business. You've got GAT here working with global business partners,
and in the same way the police and Customs now
(11:31):
work with their international partners. You know, transnational organized crime
by its definition, crosses borders quite bluidly, and in response
of the police and customs and others are sort of
having to work with their partners overseas as well because
there's no point just focusing on what's happening here. And
we're seeing a lot more co operation as well, which
(11:51):
is leading to some of these big drug.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Busts in terms of the tools that police and customs have. Obviously,
I've seen a couple of quotes that they're just working
against the tide, aren't they. So you get a six
hundred kilogram bust of meth over here, but over here
(12:16):
like what's coming through?
Speaker 2 (12:18):
I mean, it just be a never ending job for them,
that's right.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
I mean it's just you know, and talking to people
who are working.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
In those investigations, you know, they go from job to
job to job and as soon as you might spend
months or even years in some cases investigating a particular
group whilst but you know there are multiple other groups
working at the same time doing the same thing, and
you know, it's these investigations are very time consuming, they're
very resource intensive, and not even up to the point
(12:48):
where their bust is made or their rests are made.
Like there's a lot of work that there happens from
the first arrest all the way through to the trial,
and so that means that those resources are not investigating
other groups, and there are many of them.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
I mean, you know, literally, this is my third book
on the topic.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
I think if I chose to like continue writing one
every year just about because there's so much material. And
that just shows again sort of the demand of drugs
which is driving that sort of entrenched organized crime problem
in our country.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
When it comes to gang life and what is associated
with it. So you've got the outlaws, the guns, the drugs,
the violence, the money. Right on the flip side, you
do hear and I don't know whether I've been sucked
into the pr or not, but you do hear about
the camaraderie among gang members, the idea of family. Do
(13:43):
you think gangs are inherently evil?
Speaker 4 (13:47):
I think evil's a strong word.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
I think a lot of I think a lot of
activities which come out of out of gang life are terrible,
but I can see the attraction to it as well.
I mean, you know, gangs, many incidences are born out
of tough situations, tough homes, tough communities where people might
not have a loving family, or they might not have
(14:10):
a job, or they might not have that sense of
purpose or camaraderie or brotherhood.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
That gang life can project and they can attract. And
I like a lot of a lot of.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Gang members joined out of trauma in their own line.
You know, the genesis of gangs in New Zealand comes
from abuse and stakes here.
Speaker 4 (14:29):
So like I can see, there are a lot of.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Attractive things to to being in in a gang, and
that is that brotherhood, identity, camaraderie, yeah, sense of purpose.
But on the flip side, amongst amongst those groups, there's
a lot of serious cumun activity. But we can't get
away from that and whether or not individual members are
involved and that is still associated with it.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
And you know, there's no there's.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
No doubt at all that that gangs play a huge
part of the drug trade in New Zealand working in
with these other organized crime groups O disease and that's not.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
A good thing.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Yeah, it seems to me that we're not going to
we're not ever going to get rid of gangs altogether. Right,
So let's put that idea aside. Let's think about how
we stop. So to me, it seems like it's the math,
it's the easy ish. I suppose high risk, high reward money.
How do we stop And I know you probably get
(15:24):
this question all the time, but how do we stop
them from A bringing in math or B do we
just give them I don't know, like other opportunities government
contracts to do the security at I don't know, events
or something another revenue stream.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
So they don't they so they stop all the bad stuff.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Yeah, I mean that's a really difficult, big question to ask,
and one that I don't have all the answers too.
But what I would say is that and I don't
think there's one single answer. There's no silver bullets to
this because the will gang life is intrinsically tied into
other bigger, wider social issues that.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
We have in this country.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
With a that's poverty, employment or housing, lack of education,
lack of opportunity, it's all it's all tied into, it's
all tied into much bigger issues that can all be
tackled in the same kinds of ways. And I mean
one one thing that I would say about, you know,
(16:25):
those who are attracted into the gang world. I mean
a lot of it is intergenerational and out of communities
that getting life.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
Is normalized and even idolized.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
In particular and potentially so we need to be it's
at a young age. It's it's providing opportunities for.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Kids in particular, I think sport is.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
It's against sports teams and things that are happening for
youth that you know, in the smaller communities where there
might not be opportunities, those sorts of things that can
provide kids with a sense of belonging, identity, and even
just as simple as providing hope, I suppose, something to
look forward to on the weekend rather than getting sucked
(17:07):
into a world where a lot more misery can come
from it.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
And so that's that's part of those are parts of
the answers i'd say.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
And in terms of the drug aspect of gang life
and the money that can be made from it, yes,
we need as much enforcement as we possibly can get,
and the police and customers do at the best shop
that they possibly can. But we certainly need to be
looking more into investment into rehabilitation and counseling opportunities for
people who are tied up in addiction, because the only
(17:36):
way that like the supply of drugs is going.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
To dry out is if the demand of drugs rise up.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
And so I think a lot more investment could be
could be made in sort of the healthy.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Aspect of the drug of the drug world.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
I mean, if you're living in a small rural community
and needs to make plenty, for example, like it's very
hard to get the help that you need compared to
a much larger sort of city seem.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
To like Aukland, so a lot more and you know the.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Government is thinking and looking into these kinds of areas.
But I would say that the antswers lie within communities.
In each community you know a visit or report on
in these big drug bus there's always people in there
that are doing amazing work with young people. They just
need some support basically. Yeah, I think I think the
answers lie in individual communities and the other ones that
(18:24):
know what would work for their for their farm and
their families, and it's a matter of empowering and supporting them.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, those real grassroots efforts.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Hey, I mean that made me think of a story
that in your book, and you've also written about it
for The Herald about Camille, tell me more about that.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Yeah, So, Commune Kit was someone who wrote about in
my last book, almost a throwaway kind of line. She
was a sort of a drug dealer for the Monger
mob and the white cattle and so she wasn't a
focus of the book. She was just a line in there,
a couple of lines in there. And then after the
book came out, she rang me and said, oh, just
(19:03):
you know, I way, I kind of churned my life
around and doing really well, and you know, and so
we agreed to meet up in her new home and
just talk about what she's doing now. And she's someone
who's gone from being quite a heavily involved in that
world to now working as a peer support worker. So
that's someone who walks alongside those who are in recovery
(19:24):
from addiction and just helping them with basic day to
day life really as a support worker. And so we
wrote that piece for The Herald and we included part
of it in the new book. Now, and you know,
she's a really inspiring story and someone that you know,
a lot of these stories are quite dark and quite depressing,
(19:45):
and she was a real sort of story of hope
and something that sort of was quite uplifting. So, you know,
there are success stories out there, and those are the
kinds of people that we need to be listening to
about potential solutions and the way forward.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
I got to that point where I was willing and
ready to do whatever it took. I never, in my
entire life ever dreamed that I'd be where I am today.
I am a peace support worker for the South Way
ketdo Key, New Zealand. So I have a PhD in
addiction right already. I don't need to go and do
the theory and go and do all the box that
(20:21):
I've lived it. I've got all that knowledge. I know
the manipulation. I know what goes on up here, you know.
I know the means and ways that we have to
live to survive, you know, and it's very valuable.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
And what do you believe needs to change in our
approach to gangs?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
If anything?
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I mean I'm thinking media wise, right, does the media
tend to glamorize gang life or does it completely villainize them?
I mean, is are there any changes to be made
about how we view them.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
In terms of reporting on gangs, I mean what, I
don't think media glamorize gang life. I mean most of
the reporting done is in relation to you know, gaming
has been busted for being involved in the drug world
or something of violence. So I don't think it's glamorizing
(21:21):
gang life. Do gangs get demonized a little bit? Yeah,
so as there is sometimes it can feel a little
some of the gang coverage can feel overwhelming at times.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
That can be so everywhere.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
I think probably the biggest thing to sort of remembering
all this is that it's not just gangs evolved in
the drug world.
Speaker 4 (21:38):
It's sort of this.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
I try to talk about organized crime as opposed to gangs,
and we talk about that ecosystem before, about how gangs
are heavily or some gangs are heavily involved in the
in the drug trade and you know, importing it I've
never seen before rate, but they're working in with.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Other groups, you know, and the fact that they're like recognizable,
we can see them like people loved stuff that we
fear the unknown, but we love to identify and see
things and be like yeah, that's right, gang member.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Yeah, and so they become a face for that, and
obviously the Coalition government bought in sort of the gang
patch ban, and you know, I was kind of a
little bit skeptical about it at the time as to
what impact they might have, but games have been largely
compliant with that. I think there was a lot of
fears around it sort of been too hard to believe,
(22:30):
and I mean at this stage, yeah, most people seem
to be being on board with it simply because of
the fear of inviting trouble into their home, I suppose.
I mean, if there's one thing that people don't want,
it's the police coming in through their house looking at
you know, raiding the place. So games have been largely
compliant with that, and anecdotally, talking to the police, they
(22:51):
feel like the patch band has led to fewer incidents
of conflict between random game members, you know, just walking
down the street or whatever and then causing trouble. So
I think we won't see the full benefits, or we
weren't to the full consequence of the outcome of that
decision for some time yet, but certainly it's I think
(23:14):
being not so visible and reducing the perceived where of
games is a good thing. So that's something I'm hearing
anecdotally from getting himbers so that they no longer sort
of see the point and riding around without their colors on.
So you know, a big part of the game is
now less attractive from some from some aescects too. So yeah,
(23:37):
I guess some time we'll see if that has an
impact on recruitment numbers. It's too really to say.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Thanks for joining us, Jared.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
No problem, Thanks so much, Chelsey.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
That's set for this episode of the Front Page.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
You can read more about today's stories and extensive news
coverage at enzedherld dot co dot enz. The Front Page
is produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is
also our editor. I am Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The
Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts
Speaker 2 (24:12):
And tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.
Kyota at Chelsea Daniels here, host of the Front Page.
We're taking away breakover summer, but to help build the gap,
we're re issuing some of our most significant episodes of
twenty twenty five on behalf of the Front Page team.
Thanks for listening and we look forward to being back
with you on January twelfth, twenty twenty six. Kyota, I'm
(00:44):
Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a daily
podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. There are more
than nine thousand gang members in New Zealand and thousands
more associates. The Coalition government from the get go promised
a crackdown on gangs that banned gang insignior and public,
(01:07):
handed police greater powers, and created laws to disrupt get togethers.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
But is that all enough?
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Jared Savage has been a journalist at the New Zealand
Herald for a bit twenty years, with a focus on
organized crime. His latest book, Underworld, is the third in
a series he's released since twenty twenty, and the latest
installment delves deeper into our country's dark underbelly of gangs, guns, drugs,
(01:36):
and money, lots and lots of money. Today on the
front page, Savage joins us to discuss the rising threat of.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Organized crime in New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So Jared, it's not a giveaway, I reckon when I
say your latest read starts by saying the situation is
now even more dangerous and the stakes are higher, and
that it's life and death out there.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Can you tell me how things have escalated?
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Well, I think that comes down to, first and foremost,
the huge amounts of drugs which are coming into country.
When I first started reporting to the hero on this
sort of fifteen nine years ago, you know, one kilo
of meath was a big deal and it was a
front page story, and you know, like literally a front
page story. And these days, you know, even the smallest
(02:33):
of drug dealers would have far more than a kilo in.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
The back of the car.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
We're talking imports of four or five, six, seven hundred kilograms.
Not only we've seen those big busts happening regularly, almost routinely,
it seems to have had quite a like those big
busy having quite a negligible impact on how much drugs
are actually being consumed. And we can see that through
(02:58):
the wastewater testing. You know, for a long time the
wastewater test testing showed we were consuming around about fifteen
kilos of meth and phetamine per week.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Then last year sort of about from this, about this
time last.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Year, it was more than double, from about fifteen to
forty kilos per every single week, and it dropped down
a little bit by the end of the year. I
guess it shows that we've now reached a typic point
where we have we're on the map now globally for
for organized crime. Huge amounts of drugs have been sent
here regularly, and it's a real uphill battle for the
(03:34):
police and customs and other law enforcement agencies to really
investigate and stop these syndicates.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
I guess when it comes to gangs and the underworld,
the public's general fear of gangs and stuff like that
arguably led to or contributed to a changing government. Right,
you've got national's hardline on law and order policies, you've
got the crackdown on gang crime, things like that.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Is the public right to be afraid?
Speaker 4 (04:05):
I don't think the public and I think people listening
to this should.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Be afraid of going home or walking to you know,
doing going about their daily lives. In terms of the
violence and the conflict that we were seeing quite regularly
there a couple of year years ago. You know, normally
sort of gang an organized crime sort of conflict is
between is between gangs, it's not between If you're an
ncent member of the public, just go and make your
business not part of that world. I don't really think
(04:30):
you're in a huge immediate danger. But what what does
happen in those sort of situations, which can be quite kay,
quite fluid, is that people get caught in the crossfire.
And there have been instances of that in recent years.
I mean, there's an unsolved homicide at the moment sort
of from out sort of East Auckland Way where a
(04:50):
grandfather was sort of gunned down on his doorstep and
a sort of a execution style drive by targeted shooting.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
Well, he wasn't the intended target of that.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Somebody else, another member of his family was, and you
know who was involved in that world. So like this
is those are the sort of the untender consequences that
can happen. But generally speaking we're not in danger of
being heard or sort of killed or oiled into the violence.
But sort of that does have an unsettling impact on
(05:23):
society and obviously the more drugs that are out there
that contributes to other wider social.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
Issues which you know, indirectly do affect all of us.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Now. I know that people love to blame the Aussie
five ozho ones for the escalation in gang problems, right,
but New Zealand has always had a pretty narly gang land.
I mean, you've got the common cero's, the Mongols and
banditos coming in shore, but then you've got the Mongol
mob and Black Power and all those homegrown ones as well.
(05:57):
But how has the introduction of Aussie gangs changed the
game New.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Zealand it is always had an entrenched sort of gang
lifestyle going back to the nineteen fifties, Younger Mom and
Black Power for example, we're born out of abuse of
state here and sort of wider socioeconomic sort of problems
were happening and basically bands of young men coming together
to sort of in a rebellious way, and there was
(06:26):
a lot of sort of one time or disorganized crime
that came out of it. Back instid of the late
nineteen nineties and early two thousands, myth and Vetnamenon was
introduced to the country and we saw for the first
time a real organized crime element coming out of coming
out of the gangs that were already here. You know,
members of the head Hunters for example, or the House
Angels motorcycle gangs were.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Heavily involved in the myth trade.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
And then we've seen in the past twenty years since
that time an evolution where you know, those gangs were
working with international partners to bring drugs into the country.
What has really changed in the past ten years, in particular, unfortunately,
is you know, members of Australian motorcycle gangs being deported
(07:12):
here and establishing chapters or I mean you can call
them branch offices really of genuinely true the international organized
crime groups.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
And I think that's that's the difference.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
They had genuine connections to supply lines overseas, not just
in Asia but sort of the South America's, Mexico, the US,
and that's really led to this influx we talked about before,
the one kilo drug bus turning into five hundred kilo
drug bus, that that that's no coincidence of that happened
around them at the same time that we started seeing
(07:45):
the deportees come here. They've also brought us sort of
a more sort of brazen approach, more sort of arrogant
approach to the underworld. And what that's led to, you know,
more shootings and violence, but also kind of a escalation
or a tip for tat. So the groups they were
already here have up their game in response to how
(08:08):
the Australian interlopers have sort of conducted their business.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
So we're seeing things ratchet up.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
It's not just the Aussie gangs now that are doing
these big imports, but they were the mines that sort
of kick things off.
Speaker 5 (08:24):
As I've said before, gangs are not nice people. Those
opposing our gang policies often take them as very fine
community organizations. Well I say to you, they are not rotary.
They inflict serious, serious harm on our communities through peddling
illegal drugs and are responsible, frankly for a vast proportion
of our serious violence that happens on our streets.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
As I say, it is.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
One quarter of one percent of the Zealand's population, creating
one fifth of all of our serious violent crime and homicides,
and one quarter of all our firearm offences.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
And while we're on the subject of international syndicates, I
guess when we talk about the underworld here and gangs
and stuff. We think of the patches, we think of
the bikes, we think of the lambos and the leather
and all that kind of stuff. But what I found
interesting from all of your reporting, Jared, is shining a
light on, say, the Asian syndicates that are working in
(09:22):
New Zealand and the history here. You mentioned that meth
really grew in popularity and really had a foothold in
New Zealand society in the early two thousands, But how
have the Asian syndicates been involved?
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Yeah, and so you know, Asian organized crime has had
a foothold here again again for a long time, but
they became increasingly important back in sort of the early
two thousands, working in with the motorcycle gangs, I suppose
because a lot of the Asian organized crime groups had
access to either the ingredients for me amphetamine or finished
(09:58):
product themselves, either back in China or Southeast Asia.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
Where so back.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Two thousand in the two thousands, they were the ones
that were able to supply and source their material and
bring it into the gangs here who then distributed amongst
the community. So it was like a business a business
relationship there and that's that's carried on to this day.
Metha feta meat production is still largely sourced out of
Southeast Asia, although Mexico and other areas as well, so
(10:27):
those sort of Asian organized crime groups are still a
huge player in the scene here. It's like, yes, Gang
moorcycle gangs in particular are often the sort of the
visual face of organized crime here because you know, they're
so you know, identifiable in many regards, whereas the Asian kind.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Of groups have kind of gone under the radar a
little bit.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
But there's also you know a lot of strong events
and to show that Mexican cartels are seending large amount
of drunks here as another rival supplier to the Asian groups,
as well as sort of cocaine coming out of Central
and South America as well, So it's all part of
a wider ecosystem. They're all working together to make lots
of money. Largely those those big groups overseas are interested
(11:09):
in a small market like New Zealand because we are
a small market, but we're a very lucrative market because
of the margins that can be made even off the
smaller amounts of drugs. So it's certainly a global a
global business. You've got GAT here working with global business partners,
and in the same way the police and Customs now
(11:31):
work with their international partners. You know, transnational organized crime
by its definition, crosses borders quite bluidly, and in response
of the police and customs and others are sort of
having to work with their partners overseas as well because
there's no point just focusing on what's happening here. And
we're seeing a lot more co operation as well, which
(11:51):
is leading to some of these big drug.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Busts in terms of the tools that police and customs have. Obviously,
I've seen a couple of quotes that they're just working
against the tide, aren't they. So you get a six
hundred kilogram bust of meth over here, but over here
(12:16):
like what's coming through?
Speaker 2 (12:18):
I mean, it just be a never ending job for them,
that's right.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
I mean it's just you know, and talking to people
who are working.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
In those investigations, you know, they go from job to
job to job and as soon as you might spend
months or even years in some cases investigating a particular
group whilst but you know there are multiple other groups
working at the same time doing the same thing, and
you know, it's these investigations are very time consuming, they're
very resource intensive, and not even up to the point
(12:48):
where their bust is made or their rests are made.
Like there's a lot of work that there happens from
the first arrest all the way through to the trial,
and so that means that those resources are not investigating
other groups, and there are many of them.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
I mean, you know, literally, this is my third book
on the topic.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
I think if I chose to like continue writing one
every year just about because there's so much material. And
that just shows again sort of the demand of drugs
which is driving that sort of entrenched organized crime problem
in our country.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
When it comes to gang life and what is associated
with it. So you've got the outlaws, the guns, the drugs,
the violence, the money. Right on the flip side, you
do hear and I don't know whether I've been sucked
into the pr or not, but you do hear about
the camaraderie among gang members, the idea of family. Do
(13:43):
you think gangs are inherently evil?
Speaker 4 (13:47):
I think evil's a strong word.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
I think a lot of I think a lot of
activities which come out of out of gang life are terrible,
but I can see the attraction to it as well.
I mean, you know, gangs, many incidences are born out
of tough situations, tough homes, tough communities where people might
not have a loving family, or they might not have
(14:10):
a job, or they might not have that sense of
purpose or camaraderie or brotherhood.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
That gang life can project and they can attract. And
I like a lot of a lot of.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Gang members joined out of trauma in their own line.
You know, the genesis of gangs in New Zealand comes
from abuse and stakes here.
Speaker 4 (14:29):
So like I can see, there are a lot of.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Attractive things to to being in in a gang, and
that is that brotherhood, identity, camaraderie, yeah, sense of purpose.
But on the flip side, amongst amongst those groups, there's
a lot of serious cumun activity. But we can't get
away from that and whether or not individual members are
involved and that is still associated with it.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
And you know, there's no there's.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
No doubt at all that that gangs play a huge
part of the drug trade in New Zealand working in
with these other organized crime groups O disease and that's not.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
A good thing.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Yeah, it seems to me that we're not going to
we're not ever going to get rid of gangs altogether. Right,
So let's put that idea aside. Let's think about how
we stop. So to me, it seems like it's the math,
it's the easy ish. I suppose high risk, high reward money.
How do we stop And I know you probably get
(15:24):
this question all the time, but how do we stop
them from A bringing in math or B do we
just give them I don't know, like other opportunities government
contracts to do the security at I don't know, events
or something another revenue stream.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
So they don't they so they stop all the bad stuff.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Yeah, I mean that's a really difficult, big question to ask,
and one that I don't have all the answers too.
But what I would say is that and I don't
think there's one single answer. There's no silver bullets to
this because the will gang life is intrinsically tied into
other bigger, wider social issues that.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
We have in this country.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
With a that's poverty, employment or housing, lack of education,
lack of opportunity, it's all it's all tied into, it's
all tied into much bigger issues that can all be
tackled in the same kinds of ways. And I mean
one one thing that I would say about, you know,
(16:25):
those who are attracted into the gang world. I mean
a lot of it is intergenerational and out of communities
that getting life.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
Is normalized and even idolized.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
In particular and potentially so we need to be it's
at a young age. It's it's providing opportunities for.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Kids in particular, I think sport is.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
It's against sports teams and things that are happening for
youth that you know, in the smaller communities where there
might not be opportunities, those sorts of things that can
provide kids with a sense of belonging, identity, and even
just as simple as providing hope, I suppose, something to
look forward to on the weekend rather than getting sucked
(17:07):
into a world where a lot more misery can come
from it.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
And so that's that's part of those are parts of
the answers i'd say.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
And in terms of the drug aspect of gang life
and the money that can be made from it, yes,
we need as much enforcement as we possibly can get,
and the police and customers do at the best shop
that they possibly can. But we certainly need to be
looking more into investment into rehabilitation and counseling opportunities for
people who are tied up in addiction, because the only
(17:36):
way that like the supply of drugs is going.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
To dry out is if the demand of drugs rise up.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
And so I think a lot more investment could be
could be made in sort of the healthy.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Aspect of the drug of the drug world.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
I mean, if you're living in a small rural community
and needs to make plenty, for example, like it's very
hard to get the help that you need compared to
a much larger sort of city seem.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
To like Aukland, so a lot more and you know the.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Government is thinking and looking into these kinds of areas.
But I would say that the antswers lie within communities.
In each community you know a visit or report on
in these big drug bus there's always people in there
that are doing amazing work with young people. They just
need some support basically. Yeah, I think I think the
answers lie in individual communities and the other ones that
(18:24):
know what would work for their for their farm and
their families, and it's a matter of empowering and supporting them.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, those real grassroots efforts.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Hey, I mean that made me think of a story
that in your book, and you've also written about it
for The Herald about Camille, tell me more about that.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Yeah, So, Commune Kit was someone who wrote about in
my last book, almost a throwaway kind of line. She
was a sort of a drug dealer for the Monger
mob and the white cattle and so she wasn't a
focus of the book. She was just a line in there,
a couple of lines in there. And then after the
book came out, she rang me and said, oh, just
(19:03):
you know, I way, I kind of churned my life
around and doing really well, and you know, and so
we agreed to meet up in her new home and
just talk about what she's doing now. And she's someone
who's gone from being quite a heavily involved in that
world to now working as a peer support worker. So
that's someone who walks alongside those who are in recovery
(19:24):
from addiction and just helping them with basic day to
day life really as a support worker. And so we
wrote that piece for The Herald and we included part
of it in the new book. Now, and you know,
she's a really inspiring story and someone that you know,
a lot of these stories are quite dark and quite depressing,
(19:45):
and she was a real sort of story of hope
and something that sort of was quite uplifting. So, you know,
there are success stories out there, and those are the
kinds of people that we need to be listening to
about potential solutions and the way forward.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
I got to that point where I was willing and
ready to do whatever it took. I never, in my
entire life ever dreamed that I'd be where I am today.
I am a peace support worker for the South Way
ketdo Key, New Zealand. So I have a PhD in
addiction right already. I don't need to go and do
the theory and go and do all the box that
(20:21):
I've lived it. I've got all that knowledge. I know
the manipulation. I know what goes on up here, you know.
I know the means and ways that we have to
live to survive, you know, and it's very valuable.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
And what do you believe needs to change in our
approach to gangs?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
If anything?
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I mean I'm thinking media wise, right, does the media
tend to glamorize gang life or does it completely villainize them?
I mean, is are there any changes to be made
about how we view them.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
In terms of reporting on gangs, I mean what, I
don't think media glamorize gang life. I mean most of
the reporting done is in relation to you know, gaming
has been busted for being involved in the drug world
or something of violence. So I don't think it's glamorizing
(21:21):
gang life. Do gangs get demonized a little bit? Yeah,
so as there is sometimes it can feel a little
some of the gang coverage can feel overwhelming at times.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
That can be so everywhere.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
I think probably the biggest thing to sort of remembering
all this is that it's not just gangs evolved in
the drug world.
Speaker 4 (21:38):
It's sort of this.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
I try to talk about organized crime as opposed to gangs,
and we talk about that ecosystem before, about how gangs
are heavily or some gangs are heavily involved in the
in the drug trade and you know, importing it I've
never seen before rate, but they're working in with.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Other groups, you know, and the fact that they're like recognizable,
we can see them like people loved stuff that we
fear the unknown, but we love to identify and see
things and be like yeah, that's right, gang member.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Yeah, and so they become a face for that, and
obviously the Coalition government bought in sort of the gang
patch ban, and you know, I was kind of a
little bit skeptical about it at the time as to
what impact they might have, but games have been largely
compliant with that. I think there was a lot of
fears around it sort of been too hard to believe,
(22:30):
and I mean at this stage, yeah, most people seem
to be being on board with it simply because of
the fear of inviting trouble into their home, I suppose.
I mean, if there's one thing that people don't want,
it's the police coming in through their house looking at
you know, raiding the place. So games have been largely
compliant with that, and anecdotally, talking to the police, they
(22:51):
feel like the patch band has led to fewer incidents
of conflict between random game members, you know, just walking
down the street or whatever and then causing trouble. So
I think we won't see the full benefits, or we
weren't to the full consequence of the outcome of that
decision for some time yet, but certainly it's I think
(23:14):
being not so visible and reducing the perceived where of
games is a good thing. So that's something I'm hearing
anecdotally from getting himbers so that they no longer sort
of see the point and riding around without their colors on.
So you know, a big part of the game is
now less attractive from some from some aescects too. So yeah,
(23:37):
I guess some time we'll see if that has an
impact on recruitment numbers. It's too really to say.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Thanks for joining us, Jared.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
No problem, Thanks so much, Chelsey.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
That's set for this episode of the Front Page.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
You can read more about today's stories and extensive news
coverage at enzedherld dot co dot enz. The Front Page
is produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is
also our editor. I am Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The
Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts
Speaker 2 (24:12):
And tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.
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