October 22, 2024 • 17 mins
13 youths climbed atop a youth justice facility in South Auckland on Monday night – demanding fast food, cigarettes, and a getaway car.
The group made it on to the top of the Korowai Manaaki facility in Wiri just after 6.30 that night. By 9am the next day, just four remained. They came down just before noon.
It’s reminiscent of an incident at the same facility last year – when groups of young people climbed onto the roof. A month later, a trio of teens did it again – and in June, another group staged a rooftop standoff at a facility near Christchurch.
But, who exactly are these unruly youths – and are we doing the best to care for them?
Today on The Front Page, youth worker and found of Kick Back youth development Aaron Hendry joins us to discuss these incidents.
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You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Sound Engineer: Paddy Fox
Producer: Ethan Sills
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Gilda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,
a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. Thirteen
US climbed atop a youth justice facility in South Auckland
on Monday night, demanding fast food, cigarettes and to getaway car.
(00:27):
The group made it to the top of the Cotdawai
Monarchy facility and witty just after six point thirty that night.
By nine am the next day, just four remained. They
came down just before noon. It's reminiscent of an incident
at the same facility last year, when groups of young
(00:47):
people climbed onto the roof. A month later, a trio
of teens did it again, and in June another group
staged a rooftop stand off at a facility near christ Church.
But who exactly are these unruly youths and are we
doing the best we can to care for them? Today?
On the Front Page, youth worker and founder of Kickback
(01:10):
Youth Development, Aaron Hendry joins us to discuss these incidents
and the kids behind them. Aaron, this isn't the first
time an incident like this has happened. Are these displays
I suppose against authority? Are they a cry for help
(01:30):
or an act of rebellion, a mix of both, or
something else.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yeah, I think when we have this conversation that we
first center and take a step back and understand who
these children are that are in these residential facilities. You know,
these are young people that they're honesty is they've experienced
some of the worst that New Zealand society has to offer.
You know, often they were victims first before they've gone
on to cause harm in the community. They've been so
(01:55):
that it could be harmed mentally, emotionally. They have been
let down by us as a community. Often they have
experienced poverty, homelessness. You know, some will have disabilities and
severe mental health needs, and we'll have experienced some really
significant trauma.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
You know. The evidence backs that up.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
And we look kind of globally around the world, you know,
where we see young people coming into confidence to the
law and then kind of being funneled into these systems.
These are the driving factors, the reasons behind that offending
in the first place, and so it's really important to
understand that.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
And then when we see.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Behavior like this, it's really easy to look at a
picture or see an image and think, oh, you know,
they're just acting out, but there's a reason why they
are up on that road for in that situation, and
often it's coming from a space of the trauma and
pain and a young person or a child that's not
being hurt and doesn't feel like they're getting their most
basic needs met.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yeah, and I think that's what we have to remember
as well with these kind of situations. Hey, that these
kids society's most neglected. Can you tell me a little
bit more about these kids and what kind of lives
they may have led.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I mean when we look at the data and the
research around young people that end up in these sort
of facilities, you know, some of them have slipped through
since they were young. You know, there's home hasn't been
safe and so they've ended up sleeping on our streets.
Think about how unsafe you must have to be or
fear as a child to think that sleeping outside, you know,
on busy Queen Street was.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
A safer option for you.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
In some cases, you know, they're coming from farno who
are really struggling, you know, families that really love their
kids and yet are doing impossible things, trying to keep
a roof over the heads working you know, multiple jobs
and just don't have the time and the resources they
need to really care for their young people well. And
you know, as a community, we haven't supported them. Some
of these young people will have disabilities and will have
(03:34):
significant you know, mental health needs and be using substances
as a way to cope, and families may be struggling
to manage and support that without the resources and the
layers of community around them to best look after them
and care for them while trying to deal with this
you know crisis called poverty and housing and security that
many of our fartam are dealing with. The Other thing
we know about young people that end up in these
(03:57):
facilities is that often the community was a weird that
they needed help, They were aware that their families needed help,
and as a community, we haven't had the resources to
actually come down support them, care for them long before
they ever came into conflict with the law and ended
up in the justice system. There's a lot that can
be said, and there is a lot that is said
(04:17):
about our young people, But I think the thing that
we need to fundamentally focus on and remember is that
these children are here because of our failure as a
society and as a country, we have not valued the
lives of these young people well enough. We haven't cared
for them, we haven't ensured we build societies and communities
that can provide them with the resources they need, and
as a result, they have entered into these systems. I
(04:40):
think that's something that we really need to keep front
of mind when we're having a conversation around young people
in the justice system.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
The Children's Minister says thirteen young people who've scaled an
Auckland youth facility last night will face consequences. Seven of
them stayed overnight on the roof of what is called
y monarchy facility and progressively came down today. Minister Karen
shawk So staff handled it very well. We're not going
to accept this kind of behavior is absolutely unacceptable and
(05:12):
criminal liability will happen for the damage that has been
done to this youth justice facility.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Now, what are the purposes of these youth justice facilities?
Who's in charge of running them?
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Thank you? It really depends on that you decide to
kind of handle that question. I guess.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
I guess on one side, there's a stated goal of
wanting to reform and rehabilitate young people.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
I think we need to have a better.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Conversation around how we actually achieve that and how we
support young people to thrive. I think when we look
at sort of residential model, I think it's outdated and
saying we need to kind of move away from. Evidence
continues to show that these much larger, sort of residential
style projects aren't actually conducive for ensuring healing and support
and supporting young people to thrive.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
If we were to get serious.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
On what could work for a group of young people
that needed the support, we would get a lot more
serious about ensuring that there is strong wraparound support in
the community, that we're doing intervention early, intervention really really well,
really really early, and that we're empowering our communities to thrive.
And then for that small, very small group of young
people that may need some form of respite, that we
(06:17):
would be building very small, localized community respite services for
young people that are connected to the local communities, working
with EE and working with FARO to ensure that they're
getting the support they need.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Could this incident and many like it that we've seen,
could that be an indication that there's actually something happening
behind those closed doors in those residents. Have you ever
visited one of these centers?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
So we've had reports detailing some of the flaws within
these systems for decades, and I think there was a
very recent report done by Manamchapona and the Children's Commissioner
that looked at some of the issues within this residence,
in particular challenges around resonal seeing, challenges around staffing, challenges
around young people feeling safe, loved, kid or supported and
feeling like their needs were getting met and detailed. One
(07:01):
of the things I think it's again important for us
to think about. The conversation naturally goes to one or
two places or both places when this kind of comes
up is one, you know, when you get tough on
those young people, and two, you know, fingers.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Get pointed at on a timidice.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
What I think is really important to realize is that
OT exists within a system, in an ecosystem that enables
and sets parameters on what it can and can't do.
One of those realities is budgets and what is assigned
to support our young people. And also, you know, politically,
and this is not national first labor. You know, these
residences have been in existence for a very long time
and both parties have supported them. So we actually need
(07:34):
to start thinking, Okay, well, what is the political realities
we need to change if we want to ensure that
one we have safer communities where people are thriving and connected,
and to we actually support young people to heal and thrive.
And one of those things looks at ensuring that actually
we're getting the resources to our communities and to our
various ministries. However, overstarted responsibility over our care so that
(07:55):
they can be getting the support they need to really
care for their young people.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Well, and you.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Can't do that in a residential facility that doesn't have
maybe appropriate staffing levels and it has not got full
access to all the wraparound support that is really needed
for those young people.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Have you ever visited one of these centers though, or
have you heard anything on the ground about what these
places are actually like for these kids.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yeah, I've been to a couple of different periods of
time over the years.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
For some young people, it's their reality.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Like I've spoken to young people in the past too,
they've been in and out of residences, their whole lives
outside of residents, you know, there's no stability, there's no home.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
You never know what you're going to eat, you know
where you're.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Going to sleep within the residence, and this dis stability.
But we're not setting them up for the next step,
you know, we're not sitting up for when you come
out of the space, for how were we going.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
To deal with the reasons why you're here in the
first place.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
And I think that kind of again gets to the
core of this conversation around tough on crime. You know,
so tough on crime is really just going hard on failure.
It is choosing to continue to do what we have
always done, push for punishment and more punitive measures, rather
than really responding to why these young people are here.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
In the first place.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
And if we take that lens and we step back,
you know, when you speak to young people outside of
the height and state, when you speak to.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Young people around why are you here? You know what's
going on for you?
Speaker 2 (09:27):
They will tell you a story of trauma and abuse
and neglect and harm that would make you weep. You know,
I've sat with young people who have done some really
really harmful things, and they've hurt people, and they have wept,
you know, moments after that has happened and shared like why.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Did I do that?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
You know, and you know, from a professional perspective, you
can see, Look, this was a heiden state of trauma
where you were triggered an unwell and in an environment
that most human beings would not manage.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
On a day to day.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
I think if it's one thing people can reflect on
and I, you know, we might have something rarely traumatic happened,
like a car accident or the loss of a loved one,
or you know, something significant, and that would be our
significant life event for our life. These young people are
having significant life events, traumatic events where their lives are
in danger, where they're being threatened, where they're being physically harmed,
when they're losing loved ones, where they're really going through
(10:19):
like just immensely terrible things, and that is happening that
like that's their Wednesday, that's just their Thursday, that's just
every single day, and they're not having the opportunity to
be safe, to heal ones, to recover from that. And
that's the context around why these children are here in
the first place. It's easy to kind of step back
and throw some stones, but we've got to understand that
(10:40):
at the end of the day, these are kids and
they're here because as a society we have failed them.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
And until you acknowledge that, we're not going to get
very far and moving.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Forward, people aren't very forgiving of youth chrime in this country.
We saw that regularly during the discourse the last two
years with ram raids in the life. Do you think
young criminals are just miss understood?
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Yeah, I guess what I want to acknowledge is that
there is real harm.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
You know, I have real empathy for those who have
been harmed by a young person, if it's a business
owner or if it's someone who's you know, suffered in
some way.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Like that harm is real. You know, what they've gone
through in the trauma with the've experience is also real.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
But in order to prevent that from continuing, preventing that
cycle of violence, we've got to remember where it starts.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
We've got to step back and recognize what is the
context of this. And this is not eerie theory, right.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
The evidence continues to back this up wherever you look
across the world that there's a reason why we consider
young people within the justice system as a cure and
protection need. Right because the reason why internationally and locally,
the reason why young people are coming into these justice systems,
coming into the conflict of the law is because there
was a really significant unmet need, because they were themselves
(11:46):
harmed and because they didn't have the support they needed
to be healthy. And that's the context of them then
going into the community clausing further harm. And so we
can keep getting kind of tough and say, look, we're
just going to throw the book at them. But the
only ones listening to that tough messaging as other adults
who are then saying, yeah, cool, that sounds right.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
And then it just continues.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Cycle of violence because the young people are not listening
to the headlines and thinking out here, have changed my behavior.
They're operating out of a space of trauma and harm
themselves and there's not a lot of pre frontal development
mental thinking happening. Fire and emergency police negotiators after five
in mat it's been nearly two days.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Atop the quarter of white monarchy, youth justice residents.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
It's never the first thing they say that is the problem.
The shows have been turned off, or there's no salt
on them, that's nothing to do with it. So with
these youth it could be that they're separated from family,
that something has happened in their personal life, so it
takes a bit of time to get down there, and
that is the whole purpose of negotiating is to find
out what that is.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon said that this is the first
such incident this year as opposed to what he said
were fifteen last year. Is there any reason you can
point towards four a decrease in these incidents? I'm sure
the Prime Minister would point towards a change in government.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I think you probably need to talk to intimate a
key around operationally if they've done anything, I wouldn't have
any knowledge around that.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Again, you know that quoted all that you know.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
We're getting tough on crime and young people are listening
and that's changing behavior is not backed up by evidence.
I mean, if you speak to young people, they're not
really paying a lot of attention to that, and it's
also doesn't take into context the context.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Of their offending and the reason why they're causing harm.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Again, I'd point us back to what a young people
actually share in terms of what's going on for them,
and what is you know, the evidence say in terms
of why young people come in conflict.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
With the justice system.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
We know from the last time in an incident like
this occurred. You know, those young people shared that they
were protesting that they didn't feel their voices were being heard,
and they felt that this is the only way that
they could be heard. And I think as adults in
the room, we need to listen to that, We need
to pay attention. We need to ask ourselves, why is
it that we have a child, a young person who's
(13:58):
going to such an extreme to have their voice heard,
and you know what preceded this event, to understand what's
really going on there, and I'm sure there'll be something
underneath that will come out at some point.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Luxon was pretty severe in talking about this case as well,
saying that they wouldn't be getting KFC, and that's in reference,
of course, to similar bargaining tools being used in the past.
Comments online from Herald readers equally weren't as forgiving either.
Some of them, I have no sympathy and hope they
get nothing. They should be punished, leave them up there,
(14:31):
they have no rights. What do you, as someone who
works directly with these kids, what do you make of
these kind of comments?
Speaker 2 (14:40):
It's really disappointing and I guess heartbreaking when you realize
that actually these children have only ever had punishment abuse.
They have lived their life under the stick. They have
been beaten down constantly. And then when the product of
that reality becomes present in our communities and we see
(15:03):
our own harm reflected back on us as people get
hurt and no things escalate, we then pick up the
biggest stick and keep hitting them. There is no pathway
forward if a society chooses to exact violence on and
revenge on our most vulnerable, and these children are our
most vulnerable. They are here because all of us collectively
had a duty of care and a responsibility for them,
(15:26):
and we failed them.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
We have to remember that there's a group here that
are in the.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Cure of otting into Merica, which means they're in the
cure of the state, and by extension, all of us,
as New Zealand citizens, have a duty of care and
a parental responsibility over those children, and they have been failed,
and that is why they are in this situation the
first place. If we're not willing to acknowledge that, then
we're not going to move forward as a society or
as a country.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Aarin, how do you think we should be handling these
kids in these situations?
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Look, I mean, I.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Think the first thing is we need to understand why
it's all good from a thousand miles away saying, oh,
this is what's going going on. But we need to
sit down with those young people and understand what is
going on for you and why has this happened. We
also need to take some steps back and look at
the pathway that led them to being on that roof
and being in that residence in the first place. And
you know, the core reasons why young people are in
the justice system is because of systemic abuse, poverty, lack
(16:19):
of support and resources for themselves in the community, and
their far no homelessness, housing and security, you know, significant trauma,
and because we haven't resourced our communities to care for them. Well,
you know, there's a lot more we can be doing
to prevent young people from ever getting to the stage
where they are needing to be placed in a residence.
There is so much more as a community we could
(16:39):
be investing in and supporting to have happened, and we're
not doing that yet, and we need to do a
lot better.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Thanks for joining us. Aaron. That's it for this episode
of the Front Page. You can read more about today's
stories and extensive news coverage at zat Herald dot co
dot z. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Seles
with sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to
(17:07):
the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,
and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
Gilda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,
a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. Thirteen
US climbed atop a youth justice facility in South Auckland
on Monday night, demanding fast food, cigarettes and to getaway car.
(00:27):
The group made it to the top of the Cotdawai
Monarchy facility and witty just after six point thirty that night.
By nine am the next day, just four remained. They
came down just before noon. It's reminiscent of an incident
at the same facility last year, when groups of young
(00:47):
people climbed onto the roof. A month later, a trio
of teens did it again, and in June another group
staged a rooftop stand off at a facility near christ Church.
But who exactly are these unruly youths and are we
doing the best we can to care for them? Today?
On the Front Page, youth worker and founder of Kickback
(01:10):
Youth Development, Aaron Hendry joins us to discuss these incidents
and the kids behind them. Aaron, this isn't the first
time an incident like this has happened. Are these displays
I suppose against authority? Are they a cry for help
(01:30):
or an act of rebellion, a mix of both, or
something else.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yeah, I think when we have this conversation that we
first center and take a step back and understand who
these children are that are in these residential facilities. You know,
these are young people that they're honesty is they've experienced
some of the worst that New Zealand society has to offer.
You know, often they were victims first before they've gone
on to cause harm in the community. They've been so
(01:55):
that it could be harmed mentally, emotionally. They have been
let down by us as a community. Often they have
experienced poverty, homelessness. You know, some will have disabilities and
severe mental health needs, and we'll have experienced some really
significant trauma.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
You know. The evidence backs that up.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
And we look kind of globally around the world, you know,
where we see young people coming into confidence to the
law and then kind of being funneled into these systems.
These are the driving factors, the reasons behind that offending
in the first place, and so it's really important to
understand that.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
And then when we see.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Behavior like this, it's really easy to look at a
picture or see an image and think, oh, you know,
they're just acting out, but there's a reason why they
are up on that road for in that situation, and
often it's coming from a space of the trauma and
pain and a young person or a child that's not
being hurt and doesn't feel like they're getting their most
basic needs met.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yeah, and I think that's what we have to remember
as well with these kind of situations. Hey, that these
kids society's most neglected. Can you tell me a little
bit more about these kids and what kind of lives
they may have led.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I mean when we look at the data and the
research around young people that end up in these sort
of facilities, you know, some of them have slipped through
since they were young. You know, there's home hasn't been
safe and so they've ended up sleeping on our streets.
Think about how unsafe you must have to be or
fear as a child to think that sleeping outside, you know,
on busy Queen Street was.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
A safer option for you.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
In some cases, you know, they're coming from farno who
are really struggling, you know, families that really love their
kids and yet are doing impossible things, trying to keep
a roof over the heads working you know, multiple jobs
and just don't have the time and the resources they
need to really care for their young people well. And
you know, as a community, we haven't supported them. Some
of these young people will have disabilities and will have
(03:34):
significant you know, mental health needs and be using substances
as a way to cope, and families may be struggling
to manage and support that without the resources and the
layers of community around them to best look after them
and care for them while trying to deal with this
you know crisis called poverty and housing and security that
many of our fartam are dealing with. The Other thing
we know about young people that end up in these
(03:57):
facilities is that often the community was a weird that
they needed help, They were aware that their families needed help,
and as a community, we haven't had the resources to
actually come down support them, care for them long before
they ever came into conflict with the law and ended
up in the justice system. There's a lot that can
be said, and there is a lot that is said
(04:17):
about our young people, But I think the thing that
we need to fundamentally focus on and remember is that
these children are here because of our failure as a
society and as a country, we have not valued the
lives of these young people well enough. We haven't cared
for them, we haven't ensured we build societies and communities
that can provide them with the resources they need, and
as a result, they have entered into these systems. I
(04:40):
think that's something that we really need to keep front
of mind when we're having a conversation around young people
in the justice system.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
The Children's Minister says thirteen young people who've scaled an
Auckland youth facility last night will face consequences. Seven of
them stayed overnight on the roof of what is called
y monarchy facility and progressively came down today. Minister Karen
shawk So staff handled it very well. We're not going
to accept this kind of behavior is absolutely unacceptable and
(05:12):
criminal liability will happen for the damage that has been
done to this youth justice facility.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Now, what are the purposes of these youth justice facilities?
Who's in charge of running them?
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Thank you? It really depends on that you decide to
kind of handle that question. I guess.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
I guess on one side, there's a stated goal of
wanting to reform and rehabilitate young people.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
I think we need to have a better.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Conversation around how we actually achieve that and how we
support young people to thrive. I think when we look
at sort of residential model, I think it's outdated and
saying we need to kind of move away from. Evidence
continues to show that these much larger, sort of residential
style projects aren't actually conducive for ensuring healing and support
and supporting young people to thrive.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
If we were to get serious.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
On what could work for a group of young people
that needed the support, we would get a lot more
serious about ensuring that there is strong wraparound support in
the community, that we're doing intervention early, intervention really really well,
really really early, and that we're empowering our communities to thrive.
And then for that small, very small group of young
people that may need some form of respite, that we
(06:17):
would be building very small, localized community respite services for
young people that are connected to the local communities, working
with EE and working with FARO to ensure that they're
getting the support they need.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Could this incident and many like it that we've seen,
could that be an indication that there's actually something happening
behind those closed doors in those residents. Have you ever
visited one of these centers?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
So we've had reports detailing some of the flaws within
these systems for decades, and I think there was a
very recent report done by Manamchapona and the Children's Commissioner
that looked at some of the issues within this residence,
in particular challenges around resonal seeing, challenges around staffing, challenges
around young people feeling safe, loved, kid or supported and
feeling like their needs were getting met and detailed. One
(07:01):
of the things I think it's again important for us
to think about. The conversation naturally goes to one or
two places or both places when this kind of comes
up is one, you know, when you get tough on
those young people, and two, you know, fingers.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Get pointed at on a timidice.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
What I think is really important to realize is that
OT exists within a system, in an ecosystem that enables
and sets parameters on what it can and can't do.
One of those realities is budgets and what is assigned
to support our young people. And also, you know, politically,
and this is not national first labor. You know, these
residences have been in existence for a very long time
and both parties have supported them. So we actually need
(07:34):
to start thinking, Okay, well, what is the political realities
we need to change if we want to ensure that
one we have safer communities where people are thriving and connected,
and to we actually support young people to heal and thrive.
And one of those things looks at ensuring that actually
we're getting the resources to our communities and to our
various ministries. However, overstarted responsibility over our care so that
(07:55):
they can be getting the support they need to really
care for their young people.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Well, and you.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Can't do that in a residential facility that doesn't have
maybe appropriate staffing levels and it has not got full
access to all the wraparound support that is really needed
for those young people.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Have you ever visited one of these centers though, or
have you heard anything on the ground about what these
places are actually like for these kids.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yeah, I've been to a couple of different periods of
time over the years.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
For some young people, it's their reality.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Like I've spoken to young people in the past too,
they've been in and out of residences, their whole lives
outside of residents, you know, there's no stability, there's no home.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
You never know what you're going to eat, you know
where you're.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Going to sleep within the residence, and this dis stability.
But we're not setting them up for the next step,
you know, we're not sitting up for when you come
out of the space, for how were we going.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
To deal with the reasons why you're here in the
first place.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
And I think that kind of again gets to the
core of this conversation around tough on crime. You know,
so tough on crime is really just going hard on failure.
It is choosing to continue to do what we have
always done, push for punishment and more punitive measures, rather
than really responding to why these young people are here.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
In the first place.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
And if we take that lens and we step back,
you know, when you speak to young people outside of
the height and state, when you speak to.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Young people around why are you here? You know what's
going on for you?
Speaker 2 (09:27):
They will tell you a story of trauma and abuse
and neglect and harm that would make you weep. You know,
I've sat with young people who have done some really
really harmful things, and they've hurt people, and they have wept,
you know, moments after that has happened and shared like why.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Did I do that?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
You know, and you know, from a professional perspective, you
can see, Look, this was a heiden state of trauma
where you were triggered an unwell and in an environment
that most human beings would not manage.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
On a day to day.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
I think if it's one thing people can reflect on
and I, you know, we might have something rarely traumatic happened,
like a car accident or the loss of a loved one,
or you know, something significant, and that would be our
significant life event for our life. These young people are
having significant life events, traumatic events where their lives are
in danger, where they're being threatened, where they're being physically harmed,
when they're losing loved ones, where they're really going through
(10:19):
like just immensely terrible things, and that is happening that
like that's their Wednesday, that's just their Thursday, that's just
every single day, and they're not having the opportunity to
be safe, to heal ones, to recover from that. And
that's the context around why these children are here in
the first place. It's easy to kind of step back
and throw some stones, but we've got to understand that
(10:40):
at the end of the day, these are kids and
they're here because as a society we have failed them.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
And until you acknowledge that, we're not going to get
very far and moving.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Forward, people aren't very forgiving of youth chrime in this country.
We saw that regularly during the discourse the last two
years with ram raids in the life. Do you think
young criminals are just miss understood?
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Yeah, I guess what I want to acknowledge is that
there is real harm.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
You know, I have real empathy for those who have
been harmed by a young person, if it's a business
owner or if it's someone who's you know, suffered in
some way.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Like that harm is real. You know, what they've gone
through in the trauma with the've experience is also real.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
But in order to prevent that from continuing, preventing that
cycle of violence, we've got to remember where it starts.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
We've got to step back and recognize what is the
context of this. And this is not eerie theory, right.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
The evidence continues to back this up wherever you look
across the world that there's a reason why we consider
young people within the justice system as a cure and
protection need. Right because the reason why internationally and locally,
the reason why young people are coming into these justice systems,
coming into the conflict of the law is because there
was a really significant unmet need, because they were themselves
(11:46):
harmed and because they didn't have the support they needed
to be healthy. And that's the context of them then
going into the community clausing further harm. And so we
can keep getting kind of tough and say, look, we're
just going to throw the book at them. But the
only ones listening to that tough messaging as other adults
who are then saying, yeah, cool, that sounds right.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
And then it just continues.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Cycle of violence because the young people are not listening
to the headlines and thinking out here, have changed my behavior.
They're operating out of a space of trauma and harm
themselves and there's not a lot of pre frontal development
mental thinking happening. Fire and emergency police negotiators after five
in mat it's been nearly two days.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Atop the quarter of white monarchy, youth justice residents.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
It's never the first thing they say that is the problem.
The shows have been turned off, or there's no salt
on them, that's nothing to do with it. So with
these youth it could be that they're separated from family,
that something has happened in their personal life, so it
takes a bit of time to get down there, and
that is the whole purpose of negotiating is to find
out what that is.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon said that this is the first
such incident this year as opposed to what he said
were fifteen last year. Is there any reason you can
point towards four a decrease in these incidents? I'm sure
the Prime Minister would point towards a change in government.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I think you probably need to talk to intimate a
key around operationally if they've done anything, I wouldn't have
any knowledge around that.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Again, you know that quoted all that you know.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
We're getting tough on crime and young people are listening
and that's changing behavior is not backed up by evidence.
I mean, if you speak to young people, they're not
really paying a lot of attention to that, and it's
also doesn't take into context the context.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Of their offending and the reason why they're causing harm.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Again, I'd point us back to what a young people
actually share in terms of what's going on for them,
and what is you know, the evidence say in terms
of why young people come in conflict.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
With the justice system.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
We know from the last time in an incident like
this occurred. You know, those young people shared that they
were protesting that they didn't feel their voices were being heard,
and they felt that this is the only way that
they could be heard. And I think as adults in
the room, we need to listen to that, We need
to pay attention. We need to ask ourselves, why is
it that we have a child, a young person who's
(13:58):
going to such an extreme to have their voice heard,
and you know what preceded this event, to understand what's
really going on there, and I'm sure there'll be something
underneath that will come out at some point.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Luxon was pretty severe in talking about this case as well,
saying that they wouldn't be getting KFC, and that's in reference,
of course, to similar bargaining tools being used in the past.
Comments online from Herald readers equally weren't as forgiving either.
Some of them, I have no sympathy and hope they
get nothing. They should be punished, leave them up there,
(14:31):
they have no rights. What do you, as someone who
works directly with these kids, what do you make of
these kind of comments?
Speaker 2 (14:40):
It's really disappointing and I guess heartbreaking when you realize
that actually these children have only ever had punishment abuse.
They have lived their life under the stick. They have
been beaten down constantly. And then when the product of
that reality becomes present in our communities and we see
(15:03):
our own harm reflected back on us as people get
hurt and no things escalate, we then pick up the
biggest stick and keep hitting them. There is no pathway
forward if a society chooses to exact violence on and
revenge on our most vulnerable, and these children are our
most vulnerable. They are here because all of us collectively
had a duty of care and a responsibility for them,
(15:26):
and we failed them.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
We have to remember that there's a group here that
are in the.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Cure of otting into Merica, which means they're in the
cure of the state, and by extension, all of us,
as New Zealand citizens, have a duty of care and
a parental responsibility over those children, and they have been failed,
and that is why they are in this situation the
first place. If we're not willing to acknowledge that, then
we're not going to move forward as a society or
as a country.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Aarin, how do you think we should be handling these
kids in these situations?
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Look, I mean, I.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Think the first thing is we need to understand why
it's all good from a thousand miles away saying, oh,
this is what's going going on. But we need to
sit down with those young people and understand what is
going on for you and why has this happened. We
also need to take some steps back and look at
the pathway that led them to being on that roof
and being in that residence in the first place. And
you know, the core reasons why young people are in
the justice system is because of systemic abuse, poverty, lack
(16:19):
of support and resources for themselves in the community, and
their far no homelessness, housing and security, you know, significant trauma,
and because we haven't resourced our communities to care for them. Well,
you know, there's a lot more we can be doing
to prevent young people from ever getting to the stage
where they are needing to be placed in a residence.
There is so much more as a community we could
(16:39):
be investing in and supporting to have happened, and we're
not doing that yet, and we need to do a
lot better.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Thanks for joining us. Aaron. That's it for this episode
of the Front Page. You can read more about today's
stories and extensive news coverage at zat Herald dot co
dot z. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Seles
with sound engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to
(17:07):
the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,
and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
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