August 31, 2025 • 18 mins
Debbie Ngarewa-Packer is known for unapologetically fighting for the rights of Māori.
The co-leader of Te Pati Māori never shies away from speaking her mind -- especially when it comes to social and climate justice.
Since becoming co-leader in 2020, and MP for Te Tai Hauauru at the last election, she’s been suspended from Parliament and criticised the coalition’s “intent to dismantle indigenous rights”.
At the last election, the party won six electorate seats – its best result yet.
So, Today on The Front Page, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer is with us to take us through how the party’s gearing up for Election 2026 and how they’ll appeal to the masses – or, if they even want to?
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You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Editor/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Jane Yee
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kiyota.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
Presented by The New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Debbie Nauda Packer is known for unapologetically fighting for the
rights of Maldi. The co leader of Tepati Maldi never
shies away from speaking her mind, especially when it comes
to social and climate justice. Since becoming co leader in
twenty twenty, she's been suspended from Parliament and criticized the
(00:38):
coalition's intent to dismantle indigenous rights. At the last election,
Tapati Maori won six electorate seats, its best result yet.
Today on the Front Page, Debbie Nadoua Packa is with
us to take us through how the party is gearing
up for election twenty twenty six and how they'll appeal
to the masses, or if they even.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Want to so.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Debbie, you've obviously been critical of the government's approach to
Maldi rights and treaty obligations. What do you see is
the most urgent challenges facing Malti under the current government.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Yeah, I think immediately what we have is a real
challenge to democracy. Obviously, I've been really open about the
iniquities that this government refuses to address such than health
and education. But I think there's also a major trust
issue that I don't think this government is ever certainly
(01:42):
this Prime Minister is ever going to be able to resolve.
And that's the way that this government has just come
out and attacked Maori, every other minority and an important
person that makes up the fabric of alty at all.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Obviously, election day for the Tamiki Makodo by election is
this Saturday, September six. We did an episode the other
week about it where vic UNI Associate Professor Lara Greeves
told us that it's basically a race to the finish
line between Laboring to Batti Mali. You've got Bernie Hannada
and Areni Kaipra.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
We know it.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
It was quite a tight contest in twenty twenty three.
How is it looking now this year this time around?
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Yeah, I think I'm coming into the bi election as
some real concerning issues which I think affect the whole
of Old head Or and that is the fact that
we have round about nine eight hundred Maori on a
dormant list and if that's not resolved by twenty twenty six,
we effectively have then removed from being able to participate
(02:42):
in democracy. So we've come into a by election where
there are trust issues with the Electoral Commission, where we
have not received confidence and assurance that the dormant list
that keeps growing for Maori voters has been addressed. So
you know that then means the scenario that we're dealing
(03:02):
with is really.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Really contentious. For whoever are the candidates.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
I think, you know, when we come into the desire,
the desire of the people, I'm in Tomachy Macota at
the moment, and it is about, you know, do we
trust as Maori, you know, a person who's been a
career politician eighteen years plus, in fact been an ex minister,
or do we trust someone who's well no one has
(03:29):
been a part of detraumatizing community and has shown her faciness.
And I think that's really what it's coming down to her.
And I know, you know, we've got a person who
reputes himself on his history, who you know, tried to
legislate out all during during his tenure, who was missing
in action during COVID response for Mary, who allowed a
(03:52):
Malori vaccine rollout to happen without Mali input, and in
fact we had to stand up so I think, you know, again,
we've got real trust issues and is you're going to
do enough for the sense of urgency that Maori haves. So,
you know, I think it will come down to the line.
It will be who decides that actually we need to
they even want to participate, given the trust isses we
(04:13):
have with governments. But yeah, it's I am getting a
real sense of the pain and the hurt and the
betrayal from this government requires someone who's going to be
different than what we've had from either settler parties or
legacy parties, whichever they are called.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
What would a win for TO Party Maori and already
mean heading into the election next year, do you think.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Oh, I think, you know, for TO Party Mario. You know,
it's really critical for us. We had the mandate and yes,
yes you said it was. It was really tight, but
it was a mandate that was growing despite the fact
us having a really unwell you know, unwell MP and
what we've seen and had connected with us as record
(05:03):
numbers at a lot of the events, we had record
numbers at the participation of who the selection process was
going to be. So it's going to mean that we
continue to have that voice and that voice, that's that's
pushing one hundred percent for Mali to be seen and heard,
particularly in an environment where we see our voices have
(05:25):
been pushed back and our co propper, whether it be
Final Order, Malori health, have all.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Been pushed back.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
So I think it's really important for us that we
continue to have somebody that's going to protect Tommy and
Macota and protect the energy of what it is. But
you know what else, it sort of sounds all doom
and gloom. We've also seen a whole lot of positivity
and a whole of solutions coming forward, and so we
want another voice here that's going to push our wealth text,
(05:52):
that's going to push our you know, our housing policy,
that's going to push it our people no longer become
homeless and can afford to have a house, you know,
a roof over the heads and food on the table.
So I think that's you know, that's a really important
part of keeping this voice. But I know, you know,
in an unapologetic party party, Marian, I think the thing
is that you know, what we've seen when we sawt
(06:14):
from the heir Cooys is that we're not a party
that is for one hundred percent Maori focused, Mali inequities focused,
but we're also one hundred and fifty percent altied or
everyone focused. I think that's the climate that people want,
is transformational change, but someone who peeps us all together
and united, and that's what we stand for.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
That's what that voice is so important of here.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
If we do look forward to the twenty twenty six
general election, I mean, I know that historically to Bartimori
has focused on Maori seats, of course, but in terms
of the Haircuois and that show of support that you
saw from wider New Zealand, would would the party be
open to perhaps going beyond its traditional vote base or
(07:00):
do you even want to do that? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Of course, I mean I think, I mean what we
want to do is have a nation that respects everyone's
that respects everyone's uniqueness, diversity, that comes together and makes
us an amazing nation that it is. That's what represents
and what we've seen you without any doubt, have we
saught on the treaty principal submissions and we've actually seen
(07:24):
the Regultory Standards Bill a record ninety eight percent of
opposing the division that we've seen, you know, rolling out
of this sort of really hateful government and so absolutely,
and I think we will continue to be Obviously we're
in an indigenous led and Tongue Ta pheneral party, but
that was never about living alone. We were always united
(07:46):
in our fight against c big mining. We're united in
our fight against you know, making sure that we can
give good jobs, good homes and good lives, good education
system for our people.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
That's what Tetanditi promises.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
So yeah, yeah, we're absolutely, always has been focused and
we and we use that terminology alter at our home.
And I think you know, what we've had to contend
with is a rhetoric of you know, brothers they're extreme,
the others, Well, yeah, we are extremely optimistic, we are
extremely altered or eccentric, and if we were to look
(08:19):
at our values, everything about it is actually bringing the
balance back into life and the restorative manner approach for everybody.
So yeah, absolutely, and we've got to continue to be open.
Like you know, I'm the second generation of party. Mighty
goodness knows what the next generation now ongoing. We're under
a twenty year old party. So as a movement, we're still, yes,
(08:41):
still growing us and it's a really humbling place and
exciting place to be.
Speaker 5 (08:45):
In because we fight to be the best time at
the Fender weekend that old Eor deserves. Doesn't mean that
we're anting anybody as absolutely not. When you wanted to
blow up things in Pacific, you know, People's Ministry for
Pacific Keepers, all those types of you've never heard that
(09:07):
from us once.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
What would you say to an undecided a Parkih voter,
I suppose do you think there's a misconception that you
will only look after Mali?
Speaker 4 (09:18):
I think there is, and it's just so, And I
think actually it's a narrative that's been deliberately designed. But
I always think that actions speak louder than words. And
you know, for an example, Rawi and I found a
water wipe data a lot of the heart of to
party Maori where showed our actions during COVID.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
We looked after everyone. We looked after the whole community.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
And while we were all doing that together, we took
the weight of the public health system and off the
hospital so it could focus on those who needed that
acute care. We fed everyone, We communicated at all levels
to everyone, and I bet you couldn't find a single
person in to Taihwa to Electric that said. We didn't
tune up for a whole community that we didn't turn
(10:02):
up for his whole community. Final order didn't deliver to
its whole community. We can't be a nation that's divided
and hateful, that leaves people behind. And what we've seen,
sadly is, you know, women have been expendable. We've seen
our disabled tiku of the whole community left behind. It's
just not a narrative, but I do see continuously and
(10:25):
I guess the first half of this year also we've.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Been pushing back and refusing to comply.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
With the speaker, with the way that we've seen the House,
you know, act disproportionately and unfear to us as an
Indigenous League party. So yeah, like I said, I can
see where that narrative comes from. But our actions completely
say the opposite. The Hequoi shows we're completely the opposite.
(10:51):
Our support for other people of Palestine, our support for
environmental issues, our support for everyone being well completely shows
the opposite. So I think it's you know, we we
want to look after all workers in all New Zealanders
and what we want is for everyone to be given
a fair chance to live well, not just the two
(11:12):
percent to more than fifty percent of the wealth of
old ted Le or so like to Party Kakaiki, who
we get on really well with. We have a wealth tax,
and our wealth tax is not about being rich envy,
It's actually about it let's just distribute the wealth and
have a tax system that's fair for all. So yeah,
and we don't get to talk about those things a
lot because the media normally wants to hear the drama
(11:33):
of what we're doing.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
So yeah, and I think that's good.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
Yeah, I know, And I think I think that's because
you know, we just keep getting cornered in some of
these politics. But the reality is, you listen to Hannah
and the contribution she makes to education and in the
progress that she's proposing. I think we're a really progressive
movement and we're really really proud to be staunchly side
(12:00):
by side with to Party cr cutter Key as well.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
So I think two of us know what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Why do you think some people are so hell bent
on disregarding the basic fact that Maldi and Pacifica face
different health outcomes than Parki ha on the podcast when
I said that, said just that there are worse outcomes
for Maldi and pacifica David Seymour said this, You've also.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Said that your preferred lens for partitioning human beings is race. Actually,
there are differences between rich and poor. There are differences
based on education. There are differences based on whether people
choose to spoke serrits. There are differences based on dietary
There are so many different ways that you can categorize people.
(12:48):
I just reject choosing one which is quite clumsy, quite nicky,
and doesn't actually get us to target the people in
greatest need.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Now a lot to unpack there, But what would you
say to people who think that everyone should be treated
I suppose equally is his argument.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
I think the whole debate and the fundamental difference between
the likes of us and ACT is that we don't
deny our history. We don't deny that we have an equities.
We don't deny that we've all arrived to today with
different with different parts of who and what makes us up.
And that's the biggest debate that we're having is we
have a politician like David Seymour who's pretending that we
(13:29):
have we wipe out the history, for example of colonization,
we wipe out the history of two or three generations
of trauma. We wipe out the history of the weight
that it takes to break the cycle of deficit thinking,
to break the cycle of poverty, to break the cycle
of being able to feel at one with the rest
(13:50):
of your community. That is a bigger systemic issue that
the refusing to accept, which effectively says, but like the treaty,
colonization never happened.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
The treaty never happened.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
In fact, Maldi pacifica, and not just us, woman and
not just women those who are disabled.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Buckle up. We all are treated the same.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
And the reality is you and I know an everyday
basis that that's not the fact at all. So I
also think equity costs, and there has been a real
cost equation put to us. And we thought David was
really outspoken during a COVID and so was Judith Collins.
Oh you know this is this is not as costing us.
(14:32):
Marty shouldn't have their own vaccine thing. Marty shouldn't have Well, actually,
we live collectively when when a lot of Western cultures don't.
We have a different way of communicating. And I think
what we've seen sadly is a politician who really just
doesn't respect the fact that there were people here. We
have rights as everyone does. Those are indigenous rights which
(14:54):
are captured in ten tnty, which is why he's attacking
ten Tarnty. I think the other thing is because equity costs,
and nobody wants to invest in that when they prefer
to have you know, exploitation, corporate exploitation, atlas agendas coming through,
whatever you want to call it, whether you accept that
or not. We have a different approach, and we believe
in investing in equity and doing a target approach to
(15:14):
addressing inequities and let us get on and do it
once for all and get us all to a stage
where we can live equally. And I think that's the
fundamental difference between us all is we don't deny our history.
It made us who we are from Tatanaki advantage by
the resilience that my ancestors are sent you gave to
me through everything they endured. But that doesn't mean that
(15:37):
I'm prepared to wipe out what they went through. So yeah,
and I think it's just a moment in time. I
do think that you can see it now, young ones
Mali non Mali tongue to Titi, tongue to mourner, whatever
you want to label yourself. There is a general acceptance,
a social justice acceptance that everyone deserves to be treated
with dignity and we want to live in peace.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
It's just we've got.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Some're a young country with the last of the countries
that were colonize, so we've got a little bit of
growth to go through and we'll get there.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
It's just a bit tough at the moment.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
And lastly, if there's one thing that you could change tomorrow,
what would it be?
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Are really easy?
Speaker 4 (16:17):
I would first of all, resource and invest hugely in
the program of Martiquiemai as an educational copaper for us
as a nation, and invest time in what would transformational
change be and look like. And that is a growing
up program and conversation. I think it's exciting. It happened
(16:40):
in the past. It's had more than ten thousand people
at fifteen thousand people contribute to it at Verrey in phases,
and I think that the world could see how we
map out our being together, our social cohesion as an
indigenous led.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Nation, a proud nation of Mardi and a nation that's
you know.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
It's because Once we do that in trench collectively with
Idle Heart, then that sets the theme for everything we
do with each other.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Your rights and my rights both matter.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
Your rights and my rights to look after our nation
are just as important. But until we accept each other's rights,
we're just going to continue to sort of go down
this FORR. Sad Lane that I think only a few
are saying. And the evidences and he called the evidences
and the truly principal skill the evidences in the regulatory
standard schill and they get a lot of airtime, but
I think these are That's what I would do.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Thanks for joining us, Debbie, anytime.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at NZADHERLD, dot co, dot MZ. The Front Page is
produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also
our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniel. Subscribe to the Front Page
on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune
(18:05):
in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
Kiyota.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
Presented by The New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Debbie Nauda Packer is known for unapologetically fighting for the
rights of Maldi. The co leader of Tepati Maldi never
shies away from speaking her mind, especially when it comes
to social and climate justice. Since becoming co leader in
twenty twenty, she's been suspended from Parliament and criticized the
(00:38):
coalition's intent to dismantle indigenous rights. At the last election,
Tapati Maori won six electorate seats, its best result yet.
Today on the Front Page, Debbie Nadoua Packa is with
us to take us through how the party is gearing
up for election twenty twenty six and how they'll appeal
to the masses, or if they even.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Want to so.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Debbie, you've obviously been critical of the government's approach to
Maldi rights and treaty obligations. What do you see is
the most urgent challenges facing Malti under the current government.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Yeah, I think immediately what we have is a real
challenge to democracy. Obviously, I've been really open about the
iniquities that this government refuses to address such than health
and education. But I think there's also a major trust
issue that I don't think this government is ever certainly
(01:42):
this Prime Minister is ever going to be able to resolve.
And that's the way that this government has just come
out and attacked Maori, every other minority and an important
person that makes up the fabric of alty at all.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Obviously, election day for the Tamiki Makodo by election is
this Saturday, September six. We did an episode the other
week about it where vic UNI Associate Professor Lara Greeves
told us that it's basically a race to the finish
line between Laboring to Batti Mali. You've got Bernie Hannada
and Areni Kaipra.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
We know it.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
It was quite a tight contest in twenty twenty three.
How is it looking now this year this time around?
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Yeah, I think I'm coming into the bi election as
some real concerning issues which I think affect the whole
of Old head Or and that is the fact that
we have round about nine eight hundred Maori on a
dormant list and if that's not resolved by twenty twenty six,
we effectively have then removed from being able to participate
(02:42):
in democracy. So we've come into a by election where
there are trust issues with the Electoral Commission, where we
have not received confidence and assurance that the dormant list
that keeps growing for Maori voters has been addressed. So
you know that then means the scenario that we're dealing
(03:02):
with is really.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Really contentious. For whoever are the candidates.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
I think, you know, when we come into the desire,
the desire of the people, I'm in Tomachy Macota at
the moment, and it is about, you know, do we
trust as Maori, you know, a person who's been a
career politician eighteen years plus, in fact been an ex minister,
or do we trust someone who's well no one has
(03:29):
been a part of detraumatizing community and has shown her faciness.
And I think that's really what it's coming down to her.
And I know, you know, we've got a person who
reputes himself on his history, who you know, tried to
legislate out all during during his tenure, who was missing
in action during COVID response for Mary, who allowed a
(03:52):
Malori vaccine rollout to happen without Mali input, and in
fact we had to stand up so I think, you know, again,
we've got real trust issues and is you're going to
do enough for the sense of urgency that Maori haves. So,
you know, I think it will come down to the line.
It will be who decides that actually we need to
they even want to participate, given the trust isses we
(04:13):
have with governments. But yeah, it's I am getting a
real sense of the pain and the hurt and the
betrayal from this government requires someone who's going to be
different than what we've had from either settler parties or
legacy parties, whichever they are called.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
What would a win for TO Party Maori and already
mean heading into the election next year, do you think.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Oh, I think, you know, for TO Party Mario. You know,
it's really critical for us. We had the mandate and yes,
yes you said it was. It was really tight, but
it was a mandate that was growing despite the fact
us having a really unwell you know, unwell MP and
what we've seen and had connected with us as record
(05:03):
numbers at a lot of the events, we had record
numbers at the participation of who the selection process was
going to be. So it's going to mean that we
continue to have that voice and that voice, that's that's
pushing one hundred percent for Mali to be seen and heard,
particularly in an environment where we see our voices have
(05:25):
been pushed back and our co propper, whether it be
Final Order, Malori health, have all.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Been pushed back.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
So I think it's really important for us that we
continue to have somebody that's going to protect Tommy and
Macota and protect the energy of what it is. But
you know what else, it sort of sounds all doom
and gloom. We've also seen a whole lot of positivity
and a whole of solutions coming forward, and so we
want another voice here that's going to push our wealth text,
(05:52):
that's going to push our you know, our housing policy,
that's going to push it our people no longer become
homeless and can afford to have a house, you know,
a roof over the heads and food on the table.
So I think that's you know, that's a really important
part of keeping this voice. But I know, you know,
in an unapologetic party party, Marian, I think the thing
is that you know, what we've seen when we sawt
(06:14):
from the heir Cooys is that we're not a party
that is for one hundred percent Maori focused, Mali inequities focused,
but we're also one hundred and fifty percent altied or
everyone focused. I think that's the climate that people want,
is transformational change, but someone who peeps us all together
and united, and that's what we stand for.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
That's what that voice is so important of here.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
If we do look forward to the twenty twenty six
general election, I mean, I know that historically to Bartimori
has focused on Maori seats, of course, but in terms
of the Haircuois and that show of support that you
saw from wider New Zealand, would would the party be
open to perhaps going beyond its traditional vote base or
(07:00):
do you even want to do that? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Of course, I mean I think, I mean what we
want to do is have a nation that respects everyone's
that respects everyone's uniqueness, diversity, that comes together and makes
us an amazing nation that it is. That's what represents
and what we've seen you without any doubt, have we
saught on the treaty principal submissions and we've actually seen
(07:24):
the Regultory Standards Bill a record ninety eight percent of
opposing the division that we've seen, you know, rolling out
of this sort of really hateful government and so absolutely,
and I think we will continue to be Obviously we're
in an indigenous led and Tongue Ta pheneral party, but
that was never about living alone. We were always united
(07:46):
in our fight against c big mining. We're united in
our fight against you know, making sure that we can
give good jobs, good homes and good lives, good education
system for our people.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
That's what Tetanditi promises.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
So yeah, yeah, we're absolutely, always has been focused and
we and we use that terminology alter at our home.
And I think you know, what we've had to contend
with is a rhetoric of you know, brothers they're extreme,
the others, Well, yeah, we are extremely optimistic, we are
extremely altered or eccentric, and if we were to look
(08:19):
at our values, everything about it is actually bringing the
balance back into life and the restorative manner approach for everybody.
So yeah, absolutely, and we've got to continue to be open.
Like you know, I'm the second generation of party. Mighty
goodness knows what the next generation now ongoing. We're under
a twenty year old party. So as a movement, we're still, yes,
(08:41):
still growing us and it's a really humbling place and
exciting place to be.
Speaker 5 (08:45):
In because we fight to be the best time at
the Fender weekend that old Eor deserves. Doesn't mean that
we're anting anybody as absolutely not. When you wanted to
blow up things in Pacific, you know, People's Ministry for
Pacific Keepers, all those types of you've never heard that
(09:07):
from us once.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
What would you say to an undecided a Parkih voter,
I suppose do you think there's a misconception that you
will only look after Mali?
Speaker 4 (09:18):
I think there is, and it's just so, And I
think actually it's a narrative that's been deliberately designed. But
I always think that actions speak louder than words. And
you know, for an example, Rawi and I found a
water wipe data a lot of the heart of to
party Maori where showed our actions during COVID.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
We looked after everyone. We looked after the whole community.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
And while we were all doing that together, we took
the weight of the public health system and off the
hospital so it could focus on those who needed that
acute care. We fed everyone, We communicated at all levels
to everyone, and I bet you couldn't find a single
person in to Taihwa to Electric that said. We didn't
tune up for a whole community that we didn't turn
(10:02):
up for his whole community. Final order didn't deliver to
its whole community. We can't be a nation that's divided
and hateful, that leaves people behind. And what we've seen,
sadly is, you know, women have been expendable. We've seen
our disabled tiku of the whole community left behind. It's
just not a narrative, but I do see continuously and
(10:25):
I guess the first half of this year also we've.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Been pushing back and refusing to comply.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
With the speaker, with the way that we've seen the House,
you know, act disproportionately and unfear to us as an
Indigenous League party. So yeah, like I said, I can
see where that narrative comes from. But our actions completely
say the opposite. The Hequoi shows we're completely the opposite.
(10:51):
Our support for other people of Palestine, our support for
environmental issues, our support for everyone being well completely shows
the opposite. So I think it's you know, we we
want to look after all workers in all New Zealanders
and what we want is for everyone to be given
a fair chance to live well, not just the two
(11:12):
percent to more than fifty percent of the wealth of
old ted Le or so like to Party Kakaiki, who
we get on really well with. We have a wealth tax,
and our wealth tax is not about being rich envy,
It's actually about it let's just distribute the wealth and
have a tax system that's fair for all. So yeah,
and we don't get to talk about those things a
lot because the media normally wants to hear the drama
(11:33):
of what we're doing.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
So yeah, and I think that's good.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
Yeah, I know, And I think I think that's because
you know, we just keep getting cornered in some of
these politics. But the reality is, you listen to Hannah
and the contribution she makes to education and in the
progress that she's proposing. I think we're a really progressive
movement and we're really really proud to be staunchly side
(12:00):
by side with to Party cr cutter Key as well.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
So I think two of us know what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Why do you think some people are so hell bent
on disregarding the basic fact that Maldi and Pacifica face
different health outcomes than Parki ha on the podcast when
I said that, said just that there are worse outcomes
for Maldi and pacifica David Seymour said this, You've also.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Said that your preferred lens for partitioning human beings is race. Actually,
there are differences between rich and poor. There are differences
based on education. There are differences based on whether people
choose to spoke serrits. There are differences based on dietary
There are so many different ways that you can categorize people.
(12:48):
I just reject choosing one which is quite clumsy, quite nicky,
and doesn't actually get us to target the people in
greatest need.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Now a lot to unpack there, But what would you
say to people who think that everyone should be treated
I suppose equally is his argument.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
I think the whole debate and the fundamental difference between
the likes of us and ACT is that we don't
deny our history. We don't deny that we have an equities.
We don't deny that we've all arrived to today with
different with different parts of who and what makes us up.
And that's the biggest debate that we're having is we
have a politician like David Seymour who's pretending that we
(13:29):
have we wipe out the history, for example of colonization,
we wipe out the history of two or three generations
of trauma. We wipe out the history of the weight
that it takes to break the cycle of deficit thinking,
to break the cycle of poverty, to break the cycle
of being able to feel at one with the rest
(13:50):
of your community. That is a bigger systemic issue that
the refusing to accept, which effectively says, but like the treaty,
colonization never happened.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
The treaty never happened.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
In fact, Maldi pacifica, and not just us, woman and
not just women those who are disabled.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Buckle up. We all are treated the same.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
And the reality is you and I know an everyday
basis that that's not the fact at all. So I
also think equity costs, and there has been a real
cost equation put to us. And we thought David was
really outspoken during a COVID and so was Judith Collins.
Oh you know this is this is not as costing us.
(14:32):
Marty shouldn't have their own vaccine thing. Marty shouldn't have Well, actually,
we live collectively when when a lot of Western cultures don't.
We have a different way of communicating. And I think
what we've seen sadly is a politician who really just
doesn't respect the fact that there were people here. We
have rights as everyone does. Those are indigenous rights which
(14:54):
are captured in ten tnty, which is why he's attacking
ten Tarnty. I think the other thing is because equity costs,
and nobody wants to invest in that when they prefer
to have you know, exploitation, corporate exploitation, atlas agendas coming through,
whatever you want to call it, whether you accept that
or not. We have a different approach, and we believe
in investing in equity and doing a target approach to
(15:14):
addressing inequities and let us get on and do it
once for all and get us all to a stage
where we can live equally. And I think that's the
fundamental difference between us all is we don't deny our history.
It made us who we are from Tatanaki advantage by
the resilience that my ancestors are sent you gave to
me through everything they endured. But that doesn't mean that
(15:37):
I'm prepared to wipe out what they went through. So yeah,
and I think it's just a moment in time. I
do think that you can see it now, young ones
Mali non Mali tongue to Titi, tongue to mourner, whatever
you want to label yourself. There is a general acceptance,
a social justice acceptance that everyone deserves to be treated
with dignity and we want to live in peace.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
It's just we've got.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Some're a young country with the last of the countries
that were colonize, so we've got a little bit of
growth to go through and we'll get there.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
It's just a bit tough at the moment.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
And lastly, if there's one thing that you could change tomorrow,
what would it be?
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Are really easy?
Speaker 4 (16:17):
I would first of all, resource and invest hugely in
the program of Martiquiemai as an educational copaper for us
as a nation, and invest time in what would transformational
change be and look like. And that is a growing
up program and conversation. I think it's exciting. It happened
(16:40):
in the past. It's had more than ten thousand people
at fifteen thousand people contribute to it at Verrey in phases,
and I think that the world could see how we
map out our being together, our social cohesion as an
indigenous led.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
Nation, a proud nation of Mardi and a nation that's
you know.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
It's because Once we do that in trench collectively with
Idle Heart, then that sets the theme for everything we
do with each other.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Your rights and my rights both matter.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
Your rights and my rights to look after our nation
are just as important. But until we accept each other's rights,
we're just going to continue to sort of go down
this FORR. Sad Lane that I think only a few
are saying. And the evidences and he called the evidences
and the truly principal skill the evidences in the regulatory
standard schill and they get a lot of airtime, but
I think these are That's what I would do.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Thanks for joining us, Debbie, anytime.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at NZADHERLD, dot co, dot MZ. The Front Page is
produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also
our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniel. Subscribe to the Front Page
on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune
(18:05):
in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
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