July 31, 2025 • 23 mins
There are more than 9,000 gang members in New Zealand, and thousands more associates.
The coalition government from the get-go promised a crackdown on gangs – they've banned gang insignia in public, handed police greater powers, and created laws to disrupt get-togethers. But, is that all enough?
Jared Savage has been a journalist at the NZ Herald for about 20 years, with a focus on organised crime.
His latest book, Underworld, is the third in a series of he’s released since 2020 – and the latest instalment delves deeper into our country’s dark underbelly of gangs, guns, drugs, and money – lots and lots of money.
Today on The Front Page, Savage joins us to discuss the rising threat of organised crime in New Zealand.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Editor/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Ethan Sills
Producer-in-training: Jane Yee
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kyota.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. There are
more than nine thousand gang members in New Zealand and
thousands more associates. The Coalition government from the get go
promised a crackdown on gangs that banned gang insignior and public,
(00:29):
handed police greater powers, and created laws to disrupt get togethers.
But is that all enough? Jared Savage has been a
journalist at the New Zealand Herald for about twenty years,
with a focus on organized crime. His latest book, Underworld,
is the third in a series he's released since twenty twenty,
(00:50):
and the latest installment delves deeper into our country's dark
underbelly of gangs, guns, drugs, and money, lots and lots
of money. Today on the Front Page, Savage joins us
to discuss the rising threat of organized crime in New Zealand. So, Jared,
(01:15):
it's not a giveaway. I reckon when I say your
latest read starts by saying the situation is now even
more dangerous and the stakes are higher, and that it's
life and death out there. Can you tell me how
things have escalated?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Well?
Speaker 1 (01:33):
I think it comes down to first and foremost of
the huge amounts or drugs which are coming into our country.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
When I first started reporting to the hero on this
sort of fifteen.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Nine years ago, you know, one kilo of myth was
a big deal and I was a front page story,
and you know, like literally a front page story. And
these days, you know, even the smallest of drug dealers
would have far more than a kilo in the back
of the car where talking imports of four or five, six,
seven hundred kilograms. Not only we've seen those big buss
(02:07):
happening regularly, almost routinely, it seems to have had quite
a like those big bus that having quite a negligible
impact on how much drugs are actually being consumed. And
we can see that through the wastewater testing. You know,
for a long time, the wastewater testing showed we were
consuming around about fifteen kilos of methamphetamine per week.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Then last year sort of about from this about this
time last.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Year, it was more than double, from about fifteen to
forty kilos per every single week, and it dropped down
a little bit by the end of the year. But
I guess it shows that we've now reached a big
point where we have we're on.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
The map now globally for organized crime.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Huge amounts of drugs have been sent here regularly, and
it's a real uphill battle for the police and customs
and other law enforcement agencies to really investigate and stop
these syndicates.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
I guess when it comes to gangs and the underworld,
the public's general fear of gangs and stuff like that
arguably led to or contributed to a changing government. Right
you've got national's hardline on law and order policies, You've
got the crackdown on gang crime things like that. Is
(03:23):
the public right to be afraid?
Speaker 3 (03:27):
I don't think the public, and I think people listening
to this should.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Be afraid of going home or walking to you know,
doing going about their daily lives.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
In terms of the.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Violence and the conflict that we were seeing quite regularly
there a couple of years ago. You know, normally sort
of gang an organized crime sort of conflict is between gangs.
It's not between if you're an NSM and the public,
just go make your business not part of that world.
I don't really think you're in huge immediate danger. But
what does happen in those sort of situations which can
(03:59):
be quite kay, quite fluid. Is that people get caught
in the crossfire, and there have been instances of there
in recent years.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
I mean there's an unsolved homicide at the moment sort
of from out sort.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Of East Auckland Way where a grandfather was sort of
gunned down on his doorstep and a sort of a
execution style drive by targeted shooting.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Well, he wasn't the intended target of that. Somebody else was.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Another member of his family was, and you know who
was involved in that world. So like this, those are
the sort of the untender consequences that can happen. But
generally speaking we're not in danger of being heard or
sort of killed or embroiled into the violence, but sort
of that it does have an unsettling impact on society,
(04:46):
and obviously the more drugs that are out there, that
contributes to other wider social issues which you know, indirectly
do affect all of us.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Now. I know that people love to blame the Aussie
five oh ones for the escalation in gang problems, right,
but New Zealand has always had a pretty narly gang land.
I mean you've got the common ceros, the Mongols and
bandidos coming in shore. But then you've got the Mongol
Mob and Black Power and all those homegrown ones as well.
(05:19):
But how has the introduction of Aussie gangs changed the
game New.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Zealand it is always had an entrenched sort of gang lifestyle,
going back to the nineteen fifties, Younger Mom and Black
Power for example. We're born out of abusive state care
and sort of wider socioeconomic sort of problems that were happening,
and basically bands of young men coming together to sort
(05:46):
of in a rebellious way, and there was a lot
of sort of one time or disorganized crime that.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Came out of it.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Back instead of the late nineteen nineties and early two thousands,
myth and Vietnam was introduced to the country and we
saw for the first time of re organized crime element
coming out of coming out of the gangs that were
already here. You know, members of the head Hunters for example,
or the House Angels motorcycle games were heavily involvement in
the meth trade. And then we've seen in the past
(06:15):
twenty years since that time an evolution where you know,
those gangs were working with international partners to bring drugs
into the country. What has really changed in the past
ten years. In particular, unfortunately, is you know, members of
Australian motorcycle gangs being deported here and establishing chapters or
(06:37):
I mean you can call them branch offices really of
genuinely truly international organized crime groups. And I think that's
the difference. They had genuine connections to supply lines overseas,
not just in Asia, but to the South America's, Mexico,
the US, and that's really led to this In flux,
I talked about before the one kilo drug bus turning
(07:00):
into five hundred kulo drug bus, that it's no coincidence
of that happened around them at the same time that
we started seeing the deportees come here.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
They've also brought us sort of a more sort of
brazen approach, more sort of arrogant approach to.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
The underworld, and that's led to you know, more shootings
and violence, but also kind of an escalation or a
tip for tat. So the groups that were already here
have up their game in response to how the Australian
interlopers have sort of conducted their business.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
So we're seeing things ratchet up.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
It's not just the Aussie gangs now that are doing
these big imports, but they were certainly the ones that
sort of kick things off.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
As I've said before, gangs are not nice people. Those
opposing again policies often take them as very fine community organizations,
where I say to you, they are not rotary.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
They inflict serious, serious.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Harm on our commuit. It is through kiddling illegal drugs,
and are responsible, frankly for a vast proportion of our
serious violence that happens on our streets. As I say,
it is one quarter of one percent of New Zealand's population,
creating fifth of all of our serious violent crime and homicides,
and one quarter of all our firearm offences.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
And while we're on the subject of international syndicates, I
guess when we talk about the underworld here and gangs
and stuff, we think of the patches, We think of
the bikes, We think of the lambos and the leather
and all that kind of stuff. But what I found
interesting from all of your reporting, Jared, is shining a
light on, say, the Asian syndicates that are working in
(08:44):
New Zealand and the history here. You mentioned that meth
really grew in popularity and really had a foothold in
New Zealand society in the early two thousands. But how
have the Asian syndicates been involved?
Speaker 1 (09:00):
So, you know, Asian organized crime has had a foothold
here again again for a long time, but they became
increasingly important back in sort of the early two thousands,
working in with the motorcycle gangs, I suppose, because a
lot of the Asian organized crime groups had access to
either the ingredients for mean feta meat or finished product themselves,
(09:21):
either back in China or Southeast Asia.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Where so back two thousand, in the two.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Thousands, they were the ones that were able to supply
and source the material and bring it into the gangs
here who then distributed amongst the community. So it was
like a business a business relationship there, and that's that's
carried on to this day. Methampheta meat production is still
largely sourced out of Southeast Asia, although Mexico and other
(09:47):
areas as well, so those sort of Asian organized crime
groups are still a huge player in the scene here.
It's like, yes, gang motorcycle gangs in particular are often
the sort of the visual face of organized crime here
because you know, they're so you know, identifiable in many
regards whereas the Asian kind of groups have kind of
gone under the radar a little bit. But there's also
(10:09):
you know a lot of strong events and to show
that Mexican cartels are seending large amounts of drunks here
as another rival supplier to the Asian groups as well,
those sort of cocaine coming out of Central and South
America as well, So it's all part of a wider ecosystem.
They're all working together to make lots of money. Largely
those those big groups overseas are interested in a small.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Market like New Zealand because.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
We are a small market, but we're a very lucid
market because because of the margins that can be made
even off the smaller amounts of drugs. So it's certainly
a global, a global business. You've got gangs here working
with global business partners, and in the same way the
police and customers now work with their international partners. You know,
(10:56):
transnational organized crime whites definition crosses border quite luidly, and
in response of the police and customs and others are
sort of having to work with their partners overseas as well,
because there's no point just focusing on what's happening here
and we're seeing a lot more co operation as well,
which is leading to some of these big drug.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Busts in terms of the tools that police and customs have. Obviously,
I've seen a couple of quotes that they're just working
against the tide, aren't they. So you get six hundred
kilogram bust of meth over here, but over here like
(11:39):
what's coming through? I mean, it must just be a
never ending job for them, that's right.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
I mean it's just you know, and talking to people
who are working in those investigations, you know, they go
from job to job to job and as soon as
you might spend months or even years in some cases
investigating a particular group whilst but you know, there are
multiple other groups working at the.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Same time doing the same thing.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
And you know, it's these investigations are very time consuming,
they're very resource intensive, and not even up to the
point where the bust is made or their rests are made, Like,
there's a lot of work that there happens from the
first arrest all the way through to the trial. And
so that means that those resources are not investigating other
groups and there are many of them, I mean, you know, literally,
(12:26):
this is my third book on the topic. I think
if I chose to, I can continue writing one every
year just about because there's so much material and it
just shows again some of the demand of drugs which
is driving that sort of entrenched organized crime problem.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
In our country when it comes to gang life and
what is associated with it. So you've got the outlaws,
the guns, the drugs, the violence, the money. Right on
the flip side, you do hear and I don't know
whether I've been sucked into the pr or not, but
you do hear about the gardi among gang members, the
(13:03):
idea of family. Do you think gangs are inherently evil?
Speaker 1 (13:09):
I think evil's a strong word. I think a lot
of I think a lot of activities which come out
of out of gang life are terrible. But I can
see the attraction to it as well. I mean, you know, gangs,
many incidences are born out of tough situations, tough homes,
tough communities, where people might not have a loving family,
(13:31):
or they might not have a job, or they might
not have that sense of purpose or camaraderie or brotherhood
that gang life can project and they can attract. And
so I like a lot of a lot of gang
members joined.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Out of trauma in their own life. You know, the.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Genesis of gangs in New Zealand comes from abuse and
states here. So, like I can see, there are a
lot of attractive things to being in a gang, and
that is that brotherhood, identity, yeah, sense of purpose. But
on the flip side, amongst amongst those groups, there's a
lot of serious cumul activity. But we can't get away
(14:08):
from that and whether or not individual members are involved
and that is still associated with it.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
And you know, there's no there's no doubt at all.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
That that gangs play a huge part of the dreg
trade in New Zealand, working in with these other organized
crime groups the disease and that's.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Not a good thing.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yeah, it seems to me that we're not going to
we're not ever going to get rid of gangs altogether. Right,
So let's put that idea aside. Let's think about how
we stop. So to me, it seems like it's the math,
it's the easy ish. I suppose, high risk, high reward money.
How do we stop And I know you probably get
(14:46):
this question all the time, but how do we stop
them from A bringing in math or B do we
just give them I don't know, like other opportunities. Government
contracts to do the security at I don't know, events
saw something another revenue stream, so they don't they so
they stop all the bad stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, I mean it's a really difficult, big question to
ask and one that I don't have all the answers too.
But what I would say is that and I don't
think there's any one single answer.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
There's no silver bullets to this because the gang world.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Gang life is intrinsically tight into other bigger, wider social
issues that we have in this country with a that's
poverty of employment, poor housing, lack of education, lack of opportunity,
it's all, it's all tied into. It's all tied into
much bigger issues that can all be tackled in the
(15:41):
same kinds of ways.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
And I mean, one one.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Thing that I would say about, you know, those who
are attracted into the gang world. I mean a lot
of it is intergenerational and out of communities that gang
life is normalized and even idolized in particular and potentially
so we need to it's at a young age.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
It's providing opportunities for kids. In particular, I think sport
is and against sports.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Teams and things that are happening for youth that you know,
in smaller communities where there might not be opportunities, those
sorts of things that can provide kids with a sense
of belonging, identity, and even just as simple as providing hope,
I suppose, something to look forward to on the weekend
rather than getting sucked into a world where a lot
(16:30):
more misery can come from it.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
And so that's that's part of those are parts of
the answers, i'd say.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
And in terms of the drugs aspect of getting life
and the money that can be made from it, yes,
we need as much enforcement as we possibly can get,
and the police and customers do at the best shop
that they possibly can.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
But we certainly need to be looking more.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Into investment into rehabilitation and counseling opportunities for people who
are who are tied up in addiction because the only
way that like the supply of drugs is going to
dry out as if the demand of drugs rise up.
And so I think a lot more investment could be
could be made in sort of the healthy aspect of
(17:10):
the drug of the drug world.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
I mean, if if you're living in a small.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Rural community and needs to make plenty for example, like
it's very hard to get the help that you need
compared to.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
A much larger sort of city seem to like Aukland,
so a lot more.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
And you know the government is thinking and looking into
these kinds of areas. But I would say that the
antswers lie within communities. In each community you know, a
visit or report on in these big drug bus there's
always people in there that are doing amazing work with
young people.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
They just need some support basically.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, I think I think the antswers lie in individual communities.
They're the ones that know what would work for their
for their farm and their families, and it's a matter
of empowering and supporting them.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah, those real grassroots efforts. Hey, I mean that made
me think of a story that in your book, and
you've also written about it for the Herald, about Camille.
Tell me more about that.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Yeah, So Commune Kit was someone who wrote about in
my last book, almost a throw away kind of line.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
She was a sort of.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
A drug dealer for the mongl mom in the White Catle,
and so she wasn't a focus of the book. She
was just a line in there. A couple of lines
in there, and then after the book came out, she
rang me and said, oh, just you know, if way,
I've kind of churned my life around and doing really well,
and you know, and so we agreed to meet up
in her new home and just talk about what she's
(18:35):
doing now. And she's someone who's gone from being quite
heavily involved in that world to now working as a
PIE support worker. So that's someone who walks alongside those
who are in recovery from addiction and just helping them
with basic day to day life through there as a
as a support worker. And so we wrote that piece
for the Herald and we included part of it in
(18:56):
the new book.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Now, and you know, she's a really inspired ing.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Story and someone that you know, a lot of these
stories are quite dark and quite depressing, and she was
a real sort of story of pope and something that
sort of was quite uplifting. So, you know, there are
sixty stories out there and those are the kinds of
people that we need to be listening to about potential
solutions and the way forward.
Speaker 5 (19:22):
I got to that point where I was willing and
ready to do whatever it took. I never, in my
entire life ever dreamed that I'd be where I am today.
I am a peace support worker for the South Way
keatdo Key, New Zealand. So I have a PhD in
addiction right already. I don't need to go and do
the theory and go and do all the box that
(19:44):
I've lived it. I've got all that knowledge. I know
the manipulation. I know what goes on up here, you know.
I know the means and ways that we have to
live to survive, you know. And it's very valuable.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
And what do you believe needs to change in our
approach to gangs? If anything? I mean I'm thinking media wise, right,
does the media tend to glamorize gang life or does
it completely villainize them? I mean, is are there any
changes to be made about how we view them in terms.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Of reporting on gangs? I mean what, I don't think
media glamorize gang life. I mean most of the reporting
done is in relation to you know, gaming, is being
busted for.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Being involved in the drug world or something of violence.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
So I don't think it's glamorizing gang life.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Do gangs get demonized a little bit? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (20:47):
So, as there is sometimes it can feel a little
some of the gang coverage can feel overwhelming at times.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
It can be so everywhere.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
I think probably the biggest thing to sort of remembering
all this is that it's not just gangs evolved in
the drug work.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
It's sort of this. I tried to talk about.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Organized crime as opposed to gangs, and we talked about
that ecosystem before, about our gangs are heavily or some
gangs are heavily involved in the in the drug trade
and you know, importing it I never seen before rate,
but they're working in with.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Other groups, you know, and the fact that they're like recognizable,
we can see them like people loved stuff that we
fear the unknown, but we love to identify and see
things and be like, yeah, that's right, gang member.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Yeah. And so they become a face for that.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
And obviously the Coalition government board and sort of the
gang patch ban, and you know, I was kind of
a little bit skeptical about it at the time as
to what impact they might have, but gangs have been
largely compliant with that. I think there was a lot
of fears around it sort of been too hard to believe.
And I mean, at this stage, yeah, most people seem
(21:55):
to be being on board with it simply because of
the fear of inviting trouble into their home, I suppose.
I mean, if there's one thing that people don't want,
it's the police coming in through their house looking at,
you know, raiding the place. So gangs have been largely
compliant with that, and anecdotally talking to the police, they
feel like the patch band has led to fewer incidents
(22:18):
of conflict between random game members, you know, just walking
down the street or whatever and then causing trouble.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
So I think we won't to see the full benefits, or.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
We weren't to the full consequence of the outcome of
that decision for some time yet, but certainly it's I
think being not so visible and reducing the perceived where
of gangs is a good thing. So that's something I'm
hearing anecdotally from game members, so that they no longer
(22:48):
sort of see the point and riding around without their
colors on, so you know, a big part of the
gang is now less attractive from some from some aspects too.
So yeah, again, some time we'll see if that has
an impact on recruitment numbers.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Thanks for joining us, Jared, no problem, Thanks so much, Chelsey.
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzedherld dot co dot enz. The Front Page is
produced by Ethan Seals and Richard Martin, who is also
(23:26):
our editor. I am Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front
Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and
tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.
Kyota.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. There are
more than nine thousand gang members in New Zealand and
thousands more associates. The Coalition government from the get go
promised a crackdown on gangs that banned gang insignior and public,
(00:29):
handed police greater powers, and created laws to disrupt get togethers.
But is that all enough? Jared Savage has been a
journalist at the New Zealand Herald for about twenty years,
with a focus on organized crime. His latest book, Underworld,
is the third in a series he's released since twenty twenty,
(00:50):
and the latest installment delves deeper into our country's dark
underbelly of gangs, guns, drugs, and money, lots and lots
of money. Today on the Front Page, Savage joins us
to discuss the rising threat of organized crime in New Zealand. So, Jared,
(01:15):
it's not a giveaway. I reckon when I say your
latest read starts by saying the situation is now even
more dangerous and the stakes are higher, and that it's
life and death out there. Can you tell me how
things have escalated?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Well?
Speaker 1 (01:33):
I think it comes down to first and foremost of
the huge amounts or drugs which are coming into our country.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
When I first started reporting to the hero on this
sort of fifteen.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Nine years ago, you know, one kilo of myth was
a big deal and I was a front page story,
and you know, like literally a front page story. And
these days, you know, even the smallest of drug dealers
would have far more than a kilo in the back
of the car where talking imports of four or five, six,
seven hundred kilograms. Not only we've seen those big buss
(02:07):
happening regularly, almost routinely, it seems to have had quite
a like those big bus that having quite a negligible
impact on how much drugs are actually being consumed. And
we can see that through the wastewater testing. You know,
for a long time, the wastewater testing showed we were
consuming around about fifteen kilos of methamphetamine per week.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Then last year sort of about from this about this
time last.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Year, it was more than double, from about fifteen to
forty kilos per every single week, and it dropped down
a little bit by the end of the year. But
I guess it shows that we've now reached a big
point where we have we're on.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
The map now globally for organized crime.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Huge amounts of drugs have been sent here regularly, and
it's a real uphill battle for the police and customs
and other law enforcement agencies to really investigate and stop
these syndicates.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
I guess when it comes to gangs and the underworld,
the public's general fear of gangs and stuff like that
arguably led to or contributed to a changing government. Right
you've got national's hardline on law and order policies, You've
got the crackdown on gang crime things like that. Is
(03:23):
the public right to be afraid?
Speaker 3 (03:27):
I don't think the public, and I think people listening
to this should.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Be afraid of going home or walking to you know,
doing going about their daily lives.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
In terms of the.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Violence and the conflict that we were seeing quite regularly
there a couple of years ago. You know, normally sort
of gang an organized crime sort of conflict is between gangs.
It's not between if you're an NSM and the public,
just go make your business not part of that world.
I don't really think you're in huge immediate danger. But
what does happen in those sort of situations which can
(03:59):
be quite kay, quite fluid. Is that people get caught
in the crossfire, and there have been instances of there
in recent years.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
I mean there's an unsolved homicide at the moment sort
of from out sort.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Of East Auckland Way where a grandfather was sort of
gunned down on his doorstep and a sort of a
execution style drive by targeted shooting.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Well, he wasn't the intended target of that. Somebody else was.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Another member of his family was, and you know who
was involved in that world. So like this, those are
the sort of the untender consequences that can happen. But
generally speaking we're not in danger of being heard or
sort of killed or embroiled into the violence, but sort
of that it does have an unsettling impact on society,
(04:46):
and obviously the more drugs that are out there, that
contributes to other wider social issues which you know, indirectly
do affect all of us.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Now. I know that people love to blame the Aussie
five oh ones for the escalation in gang problems, right,
but New Zealand has always had a pretty narly gang land.
I mean you've got the common ceros, the Mongols and
bandidos coming in shore. But then you've got the Mongol
Mob and Black Power and all those homegrown ones as well.
(05:19):
But how has the introduction of Aussie gangs changed the
game New.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Zealand it is always had an entrenched sort of gang lifestyle,
going back to the nineteen fifties, Younger Mom and Black
Power for example. We're born out of abusive state care
and sort of wider socioeconomic sort of problems that were happening,
and basically bands of young men coming together to sort
(05:46):
of in a rebellious way, and there was a lot
of sort of one time or disorganized crime that.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Came out of it.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Back instead of the late nineteen nineties and early two thousands,
myth and Vietnam was introduced to the country and we
saw for the first time of re organized crime element
coming out of coming out of the gangs that were
already here. You know, members of the head Hunters for example,
or the House Angels motorcycle games were heavily involvement in
the meth trade. And then we've seen in the past
(06:15):
twenty years since that time an evolution where you know,
those gangs were working with international partners to bring drugs
into the country. What has really changed in the past
ten years. In particular, unfortunately, is you know, members of
Australian motorcycle gangs being deported here and establishing chapters or
(06:37):
I mean you can call them branch offices really of
genuinely truly international organized crime groups. And I think that's
the difference. They had genuine connections to supply lines overseas,
not just in Asia, but to the South America's, Mexico,
the US, and that's really led to this In flux,
I talked about before the one kilo drug bus turning
(07:00):
into five hundred kulo drug bus, that it's no coincidence
of that happened around them at the same time that
we started seeing the deportees come here.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
They've also brought us sort of a more sort of
brazen approach, more sort of arrogant approach to.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
The underworld, and that's led to you know, more shootings
and violence, but also kind of an escalation or a
tip for tat. So the groups that were already here
have up their game in response to how the Australian
interlopers have sort of conducted their business.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
So we're seeing things ratchet up.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
It's not just the Aussie gangs now that are doing
these big imports, but they were certainly the ones that
sort of kick things off.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
As I've said before, gangs are not nice people. Those
opposing again policies often take them as very fine community organizations,
where I say to you, they are not rotary.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
They inflict serious, serious.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
Harm on our commuit. It is through kiddling illegal drugs,
and are responsible, frankly for a vast proportion of our
serious violence that happens on our streets. As I say,
it is one quarter of one percent of New Zealand's population,
creating fifth of all of our serious violent crime and homicides,
and one quarter of all our firearm offences.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
And while we're on the subject of international syndicates, I
guess when we talk about the underworld here and gangs
and stuff, we think of the patches, We think of
the bikes, We think of the lambos and the leather
and all that kind of stuff. But what I found
interesting from all of your reporting, Jared, is shining a
light on, say, the Asian syndicates that are working in
(08:44):
New Zealand and the history here. You mentioned that meth
really grew in popularity and really had a foothold in
New Zealand society in the early two thousands. But how
have the Asian syndicates been involved?
Speaker 1 (09:00):
So, you know, Asian organized crime has had a foothold
here again again for a long time, but they became
increasingly important back in sort of the early two thousands,
working in with the motorcycle gangs, I suppose, because a
lot of the Asian organized crime groups had access to
either the ingredients for mean feta meat or finished product themselves,
(09:21):
either back in China or Southeast Asia.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Where so back two thousand, in the two.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Thousands, they were the ones that were able to supply
and source the material and bring it into the gangs
here who then distributed amongst the community. So it was
like a business a business relationship there, and that's that's
carried on to this day. Methampheta meat production is still
largely sourced out of Southeast Asia, although Mexico and other
(09:47):
areas as well, so those sort of Asian organized crime
groups are still a huge player in the scene here.
It's like, yes, gang motorcycle gangs in particular are often
the sort of the visual face of organized crime here
because you know, they're so you know, identifiable in many
regards whereas the Asian kind of groups have kind of
gone under the radar a little bit. But there's also
(10:09):
you know a lot of strong events and to show
that Mexican cartels are seending large amounts of drunks here
as another rival supplier to the Asian groups as well,
those sort of cocaine coming out of Central and South
America as well, So it's all part of a wider ecosystem.
They're all working together to make lots of money. Largely
those those big groups overseas are interested in a small.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Market like New Zealand because.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
We are a small market, but we're a very lucid
market because because of the margins that can be made
even off the smaller amounts of drugs. So it's certainly
a global, a global business. You've got gangs here working
with global business partners, and in the same way the
police and customers now work with their international partners. You know,
(10:56):
transnational organized crime whites definition crosses border quite luidly, and
in response of the police and customs and others are
sort of having to work with their partners overseas as well,
because there's no point just focusing on what's happening here
and we're seeing a lot more co operation as well,
which is leading to some of these big drug.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Busts in terms of the tools that police and customs have. Obviously,
I've seen a couple of quotes that they're just working
against the tide, aren't they. So you get six hundred
kilogram bust of meth over here, but over here like
(11:39):
what's coming through? I mean, it must just be a
never ending job for them, that's right.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
I mean it's just you know, and talking to people
who are working in those investigations, you know, they go
from job to job to job and as soon as
you might spend months or even years in some cases
investigating a particular group whilst but you know, there are
multiple other groups working at the.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Same time doing the same thing.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
And you know, it's these investigations are very time consuming,
they're very resource intensive, and not even up to the
point where the bust is made or their rests are made, Like,
there's a lot of work that there happens from the
first arrest all the way through to the trial. And
so that means that those resources are not investigating other
groups and there are many of them, I mean, you know, literally,
(12:26):
this is my third book on the topic. I think
if I chose to, I can continue writing one every
year just about because there's so much material and it
just shows again some of the demand of drugs which
is driving that sort of entrenched organized crime problem.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
In our country when it comes to gang life and
what is associated with it. So you've got the outlaws,
the guns, the drugs, the violence, the money. Right on
the flip side, you do hear and I don't know
whether I've been sucked into the pr or not, but
you do hear about the gardi among gang members, the
(13:03):
idea of family. Do you think gangs are inherently evil?
Speaker 1 (13:09):
I think evil's a strong word. I think a lot
of I think a lot of activities which come out
of out of gang life are terrible. But I can
see the attraction to it as well. I mean, you know, gangs,
many incidences are born out of tough situations, tough homes,
tough communities, where people might not have a loving family,
(13:31):
or they might not have a job, or they might
not have that sense of purpose or camaraderie or brotherhood
that gang life can project and they can attract. And
so I like a lot of a lot of gang
members joined.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Out of trauma in their own life. You know, the.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Genesis of gangs in New Zealand comes from abuse and
states here. So, like I can see, there are a
lot of attractive things to being in a gang, and
that is that brotherhood, identity, yeah, sense of purpose. But
on the flip side, amongst amongst those groups, there's a
lot of serious cumul activity. But we can't get away
(14:08):
from that and whether or not individual members are involved
and that is still associated with it.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
And you know, there's no there's no doubt at all.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
That that gangs play a huge part of the dreg
trade in New Zealand, working in with these other organized
crime groups the disease and that's.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Not a good thing.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yeah, it seems to me that we're not going to
we're not ever going to get rid of gangs altogether. Right,
So let's put that idea aside. Let's think about how
we stop. So to me, it seems like it's the math,
it's the easy ish. I suppose, high risk, high reward money.
How do we stop And I know you probably get
(14:46):
this question all the time, but how do we stop
them from A bringing in math or B do we
just give them I don't know, like other opportunities. Government
contracts to do the security at I don't know, events
saw something another revenue stream, so they don't they so
they stop all the bad stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, I mean it's a really difficult, big question to
ask and one that I don't have all the answers too.
But what I would say is that and I don't
think there's any one single answer.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
There's no silver bullets to this because the gang world.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Gang life is intrinsically tight into other bigger, wider social
issues that we have in this country with a that's
poverty of employment, poor housing, lack of education, lack of opportunity,
it's all, it's all tied into. It's all tied into
much bigger issues that can all be tackled in the
(15:41):
same kinds of ways.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
And I mean, one one.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Thing that I would say about, you know, those who
are attracted into the gang world. I mean a lot
of it is intergenerational and out of communities that gang
life is normalized and even idolized in particular and potentially
so we need to it's at a young age.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
It's providing opportunities for kids. In particular, I think sport
is and against sports.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Teams and things that are happening for youth that you know,
in smaller communities where there might not be opportunities, those
sorts of things that can provide kids with a sense
of belonging, identity, and even just as simple as providing hope,
I suppose, something to look forward to on the weekend
rather than getting sucked into a world where a lot
(16:30):
more misery can come from it.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
And so that's that's part of those are parts of
the answers, i'd say.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
And in terms of the drugs aspect of getting life
and the money that can be made from it, yes,
we need as much enforcement as we possibly can get,
and the police and customers do at the best shop
that they possibly can.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
But we certainly need to be looking more.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Into investment into rehabilitation and counseling opportunities for people who
are who are tied up in addiction because the only
way that like the supply of drugs is going to
dry out as if the demand of drugs rise up.
And so I think a lot more investment could be
could be made in sort of the healthy aspect of
(17:10):
the drug of the drug world.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
I mean, if if you're living in a small.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Rural community and needs to make plenty for example, like
it's very hard to get the help that you need
compared to.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
A much larger sort of city seem to like Aukland,
so a lot more.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
And you know the government is thinking and looking into
these kinds of areas. But I would say that the
antswers lie within communities. In each community you know, a
visit or report on in these big drug bus there's
always people in there that are doing amazing work with
young people.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
They just need some support basically.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, I think I think the antswers lie in individual communities.
They're the ones that know what would work for their
for their farm and their families, and it's a matter
of empowering and supporting them.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah, those real grassroots efforts. Hey, I mean that made
me think of a story that in your book, and
you've also written about it for the Herald, about Camille.
Tell me more about that.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Yeah, So Commune Kit was someone who wrote about in
my last book, almost a throw away kind of line.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
She was a sort of.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
A drug dealer for the mongl mom in the White Catle,
and so she wasn't a focus of the book. She
was just a line in there. A couple of lines
in there, and then after the book came out, she
rang me and said, oh, just you know, if way,
I've kind of churned my life around and doing really well,
and you know, and so we agreed to meet up
in her new home and just talk about what she's
(18:35):
doing now. And she's someone who's gone from being quite
heavily involved in that world to now working as a
PIE support worker. So that's someone who walks alongside those
who are in recovery from addiction and just helping them
with basic day to day life through there as a
as a support worker. And so we wrote that piece
for the Herald and we included part of it in
(18:56):
the new book.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Now, and you know, she's a really inspired ing.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Story and someone that you know, a lot of these
stories are quite dark and quite depressing, and she was
a real sort of story of pope and something that
sort of was quite uplifting. So, you know, there are
sixty stories out there and those are the kinds of
people that we need to be listening to about potential
solutions and the way forward.
Speaker 5 (19:22):
I got to that point where I was willing and
ready to do whatever it took. I never, in my
entire life ever dreamed that I'd be where I am today.
I am a peace support worker for the South Way
keatdo Key, New Zealand. So I have a PhD in
addiction right already. I don't need to go and do
the theory and go and do all the box that
(19:44):
I've lived it. I've got all that knowledge. I know
the manipulation. I know what goes on up here, you know.
I know the means and ways that we have to
live to survive, you know. And it's very valuable.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
And what do you believe needs to change in our
approach to gangs? If anything? I mean I'm thinking media wise, right,
does the media tend to glamorize gang life or does
it completely villainize them? I mean, is are there any
changes to be made about how we view them in terms.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Of reporting on gangs? I mean what, I don't think
media glamorize gang life. I mean most of the reporting
done is in relation to you know, gaming, is being
busted for.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Being involved in the drug world or something of violence.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
So I don't think it's glamorizing gang life.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Do gangs get demonized a little bit? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (20:47):
So, as there is sometimes it can feel a little
some of the gang coverage can feel overwhelming at times.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
It can be so everywhere.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
I think probably the biggest thing to sort of remembering
all this is that it's not just gangs evolved in
the drug work.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
It's sort of this. I tried to talk about.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Organized crime as opposed to gangs, and we talked about
that ecosystem before, about our gangs are heavily or some
gangs are heavily involved in the in the drug trade
and you know, importing it I never seen before rate,
but they're working in with.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Other groups, you know, and the fact that they're like recognizable,
we can see them like people loved stuff that we
fear the unknown, but we love to identify and see
things and be like, yeah, that's right, gang member.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Yeah. And so they become a face for that.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
And obviously the Coalition government board and sort of the
gang patch ban, and you know, I was kind of
a little bit skeptical about it at the time as
to what impact they might have, but gangs have been
largely compliant with that. I think there was a lot
of fears around it sort of been too hard to believe.
And I mean, at this stage, yeah, most people seem
(21:55):
to be being on board with it simply because of
the fear of inviting trouble into their home, I suppose.
I mean, if there's one thing that people don't want,
it's the police coming in through their house looking at,
you know, raiding the place. So gangs have been largely
compliant with that, and anecdotally talking to the police, they
feel like the patch band has led to fewer incidents
(22:18):
of conflict between random game members, you know, just walking
down the street or whatever and then causing trouble.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
So I think we won't to see the full benefits, or.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
We weren't to the full consequence of the outcome of
that decision for some time yet, but certainly it's I
think being not so visible and reducing the perceived where
of gangs is a good thing. So that's something I'm
hearing anecdotally from game members, so that they no longer
(22:48):
sort of see the point and riding around without their
colors on, so you know, a big part of the
gang is now less attractive from some from some aspects too.
So yeah, again, some time we'll see if that has
an impact on recruitment numbers.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Thanks for joining us, Jared, no problem, Thanks so much, Chelsey.
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzedherld dot co dot enz. The Front Page is
produced by Ethan Seals and Richard Martin, who is also
(23:26):
our editor. I am Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front
Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and
tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.
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