August 7, 2024 • 19 mins
The 2024 Olympics has seen plenty of sporting highs as well as heartbreak for competitors around the world.
But no competition has sparked more debate and controversy than the woman’s boxing.
The inclusion of Algeria’s Imane Khelif and Taiwan’s Lin Yu-Ting has sparked a firestorm, after they were both banned from International Boxing Association competitions last year, citing negative gender tests.
The issue has blown up during the Olympics after Italy’s Angela Carini called off her match against Khelif after only a few seconds, prompting outrage from a diverse list of politicians and celebrities, including Donald Trump, JK Rowling, Elon Musk, Logan Paul, and our own Winston Peters and Israel Adesanya.
But as new information has shone light on the complexities of the case, it’s once again ignited a debate around women in sport.
With both boxers now guaranteed medals at the Olympics, today on The Front Page, we’re joined by University of Waikato professor of sociology in sport and gender, Holly Thorpe, to discuss the facts behind the outrage.
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Host: Chelsea Daniels
Sound Engineer: Paddy Fox
Producer: Ethan Sills
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kioda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page,
a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. The
twenty twenty four Olympics has seen plenty of sporting highs
as well as heartbreak for competitors around the world, but
no competition has sparked more debate and controversy than the
(00:29):
women's boxing. The inclusion of Algeria's Ahman Khalif and Taiwan's
Lynn U Ting has sparked a firestorm after they were
both banned from International Boxing Association competitions last year citing
negative gender tests. The issue has blown up during the
(00:50):
Olympics after Italy's Angela Karini called off her match against
Khalif only after a few seconds, prompting outrage from a
divert first list of politicians and celebrities, including Donald Trump,
jk Rowling, Elon Musk, Logan Pohl and our very own
Winston Peters and Israel Adisania.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
But as new.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Information has shone light on the complexities of the case,
it's once again ignited a debate around women in sport,
with both boxes now guaranteed medals at the Olympics. Today,
on the front page. We're joined by University of y
Kato Professor of Sociology in Sport and Gender, Holly Thorpe,
to discuss the controversy. Holly, from your understanding, has Emman
(01:42):
Khalif ever identified as male?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
No, from my understanding, she was born female and lived
her life as a female.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So what's the controversy here? Why was she banned by
the International Boxing Association alongside Lynn Uting?
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Opened last year at boxing competition hosted by the International
Boxing Association. It was hosted in Russia, and my understanding
is that both Khalif and Uting's gender identity was questioned
at that event, and it was the IBA president Umar
Kremlev of Russia who suggested that those two athletes had
(02:23):
X Y chromosomes, and then they were subsequently disqualified. And
other sources say that they questioned that they had elevated
levels of testosterone. But obviously the IBA is not the
organizing body running boxing in the Olympics and have been
largely discredited for a number of reasons, not just this,
a whole lot of issues, but yeah, it was these
(02:45):
questions about their gender identities were raised last year and
then have been brought up again with the Olympics.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yeah, what can you tell us about the controversies involving
the IBA. I understand it's not even running the boxing
at the Olympics anymore.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Yes, that is correct.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
They lost their permission to be the world governing body
of boxing. My understanding that was for issues relating to transparency,
the culture of that organization, number of kind of ethical concerns.
So yeah, their permission was taken away from the IOC.
So that's why the IOC set up a separate sort
(03:25):
of unit to run boxing at the Paris Olympics.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Could you give us some background on sex testing? I mean,
what even is it?
Speaker 3 (03:32):
For a start, Yeah, it's evolved over the years.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
So in nineteen sixty eight, many sportswomen who wanted to
compete in the Olympics had to undergo sex testing, which
was basically rather humiliating tests to prove their sex identities.
In the early days, this was visual examination of their
genitals in front of doctors and other medical experts. So
over time this evolved to being blood tests documenting hormone
(03:59):
levels or chromosome testing. Men never had to do these tests.
The assumption underplaying this was if you're a woman and
you're really good at sport, you could perhaps be a
man masquerading as a female. So you know, these tests
were always with that kind of assumption.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Should make this absolutely clear for everyone. This is not
a transgender issue. I know you know that, but I
think there has been some misreporting on this, and I
think it's very very important to say that this is
not a transgender issue. Many women can have testosterone which
is in what would be called male levels and still
be women and still compete as women. So this idea
(04:36):
that suddenly you do one test for a testosterone and
that's also everything else not the case, I'm afraid.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
So yeah, there's been various versions of these tests, but
they've been heavily critiqued over the years for their accuracy
and recognizing that, you know, it's not just testosterone that
has an impact on people's performance, and recognizing that sporting
performance and gender are way more complex than just hormones. So,
after many years of critique, the IOCs stopped using those
(05:08):
sex testing or gender verification in nineteen ninety nine and
engage in a big process of trying to develop a
new set of guidelines in terms of gender identity and
participating in the Olympics, which really prioritizes basic human rights
of privacy and inclusion and participation. And I really think
this is where the big issue is, whether it's this
(05:28):
case other cases that kind of blow up and we
have a whole media debacle and lots of public interest,
and I think it's the shift from sport historically a
separated men and woman, and the sex testing was very
much based on biological, physiological understandings of sex. But what
the IOC is moving towards is thinking about gender, which
(05:49):
is way more complex, right, social psychological, how people identify
as much more fluid in our societies today, and the iOS.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Is trying to move in that direction.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
But so many people and so many organizations are still
very stuck in sport as being divided by sexes.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
So it's a really.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Interesting moment of change, I think, and that's where we're
having a lot of debate and debate within these organizations, right,
debate between the IOC and the International Boxing Association. There's
a lot of organizations that are stumbling around and trying
to figure out the best way forward.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
This incident has put the spotlight on those with differences
in sex development. People may remember the case of Castor Semenya,
the South African runner who essentially was banned from competing
in sport as you had higher levels of testosterone.
Speaker 5 (06:41):
Here you are, you are eighteen years of age and
then you are asked if you're not women enough. Yeah,
regardless of the defenses that you have in your body.
But I think for me, what I had to turn around,
just like the humiliation, you know, is justice and people
treating me with no respect for me. I had to
(07:02):
just carry myself and knowing what I stand for.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Are there some cisgender women who just naturally have higher testosterone?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yes, well, you know, our hormones fluctuate during different stages
of our lives. Some men have more, some men have
less testosterone. Many women have testosterone to varying extents. So
that's why testing just based on testosterone is really problematic.
You know, we don't know the full case of caliph
or uting. I think it's got really muddied the whole
(07:35):
kind of storyline with how the IBA dealt with this.
But the important thing is that the IOC International Olympic
Committee for women to compete in the boxing at the Olympics,
all they need to prove is their gender identity in
their passport. They don't need to do a blood test,
they don't need to prove.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Their hormones or chromosomes.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
It is their gender identities and their passports and that
is all the IOC requires. So whether they are into
sex or not, whether they have X Y chromosomes or not,
that's really not up into the debate because they are
participating fully legally, following all the rules and regulations set
out by the International imp Committee.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
The misinformation and cruelty directed towards these two boxes, these
two women has been immense They've been mis gendered and
labeled men. Piers Morgan tweeted a photo of Khalif and said,
if this is a biological female, I'm a biological ardvark.
For example. Is this anything other than just outright discrimination
coming for a muscular athlete with short hair who doesn't look,
(08:41):
I suppose like your stereotypical woman.
Speaker 6 (08:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
The abuse was wide ranging, and we definitely had a
number of very high profile figures from Trump to you know,
people with huge followings, making very prude and cumulating kind
of remarks about her gender identity. And I think a
lot of people kind of looked at the photos and
made decisions themselves thinking, oh, you know, she's got short hair,
(09:08):
a strong jawline, and actually genders much more complex than
what we look like or we have short hair, and
so I think a lot of people got kind of
caught out by assuming or making assumptions and yeah, like
you're saying, Unfortunately, this kind of online abuse was very.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Widespread and it's harmful.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
This really hurts athletes, but it also hurts the next
generation of young athletes who you know, can see that
if you don't perform a particular version of femininity, you
might get this kind of level of abuse, which is
very harmful.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
At Tokyo in twenty twenty one, New Zealander Laurel Hubbard
competed in the weightlifting as a trans woman. Have sporting
codes progressed in the last three years in addressing trans
women and those with DSD yes.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I think I mentioned this before. It's a very uneven landscape.
So whereas the Internationallympic Committee set out this framework really
trying to be guided by inclusive understandings of gender, this
is only a framework. So they're kind of using this
to encourage other international organizations to follow in their lead,
but others are not right, and others are doing their
(10:14):
own thing, like World Athletics is still using testosterone testing
and it's yeah. I think what we're seeing is some countries,
some sports organizations really trying to move towards more inclusive
understandings of gender as it relates to sport, and they're
drawing upon the research and lots of consultation to do so.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
And then we've got other organizations that.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Are still basically using pretty archaic methods of sex testing.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
We've seen progress towards more inclusive approaches, and I think
we're seeing this in the Olympics, But those levels of
governance in high level sport, you know, the IOC doesn't
get to actually make the rules.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Those international sports organizations also can set their own rules
and regulations, and then how that works alongside the IOC, etc.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Is where things are getting kind of sticky. Now.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
I should mention that DSD is an acronym for differences
in sex development. So the NHS says it's a rare
group of conditions involving genes, hormones, and reproductive organs, including genitals.
It means a person's sex development is just different to
most other peoples. I suppose, So when it comes to DSD.
Do we just need to accept that some people have
(11:34):
a biological advantage in sport? Say in the same breath
that Lebron James would easily win a game of one
on one against a five foot five man.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Oh, I think you know you're right.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
I mean the bodies that we're born into, whether it's
our height, whether it's our hand size, whether it's our
foot size, will give some people biological advantages. And I
wouldn't say that testosterone or the sex body that we're
born into is just one part of many aspects that
make for strong or lesser than performances. But also, if
(12:07):
you think about performance, it's also the country that you're
born into, the kinds of funding and support that wraps
around an athlete. Do you have funding for a good
coach and good facilities and enough money to be able
to travel to compete.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
And train elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
So there's so many things that come into performance and
biology is one of them.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
But biologies much more than just sex.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Absolutely, And what I find interesting about this debate as well,
this is the Olympics, so this is the world's best
of the best. Algeria is going to send their best
women's boxer to the Olympics, just like Jamaica sent Usain
Bolt to the Olympics. Did the likes of Usain Bolt,
for example, have to undergo any kind of testing other
than perhaps drug testing to prove why he ran the
(12:51):
way that he ran.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
My understanding that male athletes have never had to undergo
gender verification, And you're right. We look at Michael Phelps
for example. You know, huge feet, tall, big hands. I mean,
these are biological advantages in swimming, but we're not accusing
him of any unfair advantage, right, But yeah, you're right.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
These questions are directed at women, powerful strong women who
challenge particular versions of gender identity.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
But often it's not all women who are targeted by
these types of questioning. It's often non white athletes, black
and brown Sportswomen in particular are those who, when they
are strong, when they are powerful, when they are winning,
are often questioned about their gender identities and then have
(13:40):
to undergo, you know, there's pretty horrific kinds of practices
to prove they are a woman. So I think there's
a whole lot of not just gendered issues here, but
also of race that's important to address. I think they're
going on here in this case as well, But these
are ethical issues which are always complex.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters tweeted about this case last week,
saying this is why NZED first fought for gender rules
in sport to be in our Coalition Agreement for Fairness
and Safety in Women's Sports, putting aside the fact that
he too misgendered Khalief. What more needs to be done
(14:18):
when it comes to trans women in sport Because we've
got governments banning or restricting children and teams from accessing
puberty blockers, but then bodies ruling out those who have
gone through puberty that can't compete. Is there a win
here at all? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
So obviously the case we're talking about here is not
about transgender athletes. But I know that Sport New Zealand
over a number of years has been working really hard
on their transgender guidelines to support sports organizations at the
community level to how to be more inclusive and respectful
of people's different gender identities. So there's been a lot
(14:54):
of work that's gone on there. We've seen over in
Australia they've been doing that work as well, really prioritizing inclusion,
recognizing that to participate in sport as a human right,
both at the community level and all the way up
to the elite levels. So we're seeing some countries and
sports organizations doing a lot of work in this space.
But you're right, it is increasingly politicized and used as
(15:18):
a political football, unfortunately, and these are real people's lives,
and I think we need to recognize that for many people,
particularly transgender people, participating in sport has not been.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
A very positive experience.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
You know, even when we see transgender athletes at the
Olympic Games, for example, they're not dominating, right, Laurel Hubbard
didn't win the gold medal. We shouldn't assume to transgender
athletes go through and annihilate the competition. So there's been
a lot of that language around using fairness and safety
to justify these decisions. But raally, a lot of sports
(15:54):
organizations are moving towards equity and inclusion. So there's a
lot of movement happening, and unfortunately these topics have been
heavily politicized.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
How do you feel when you see women's rights activists
holding signs outside Olympic venues? I mean, as a cisgendered woman,
myself I don't feel great when I see that.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah, I think in a way this is a bit
of a storm and a teacup. You know, what we've
seen in Paris is supposedly the gender equitable games, right.
We finally, after many many years, we have fifty percent
women competing and that is something to celebrate. But there
are still so many issues facing women's sport in terms
of making sure that they are safe. We have good
(16:36):
safeguarding practices against systematic abuse.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
We've seen this in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
We've seen this in the high profile cases like USA
Gymnastics and Volleyball Australia.
Speaker 6 (16:47):
The Board of Volleyball Australia has issued an apology to
former players who suffered through an environment to fear, coercive control,
physical and psychological abuse between nineteen ninety seven and two
thousand and five, and some were as young fourteen during
that time.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
So these are the really important issues in terms of
making sports safe for women. But a lot of you know,
these topics get a lot of media coverage and I
think mostly it's a bit of a distraction from these
real issues, and we don't see some of these groups
really getting involved and really trying to make sport a
safe place for women. It's more around these issues of
(17:27):
gender identity and who does and does not belong where.
I think that's really a bit of a distraction from
the real issues in women's sport today.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Holly, once the dust settles on this controversy, what would
you hope that people take away from it? And what
issues should we really be focused on? You mentioned a
few there when it comes to women in sport.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Yeah, I think we need to all of us, and
perhaps myself at times, to be really careful, you know,
not to judge a book by its cover, right, not
to judge a main calief by a photo. Actually, gender
identities way more complex than what one looks like. And
when we see that headline or we see that post
(18:07):
from someone famous, we need to do our own research
and we need to dig deeper and read more informed
pieces before we have an opinion and start sharing that
around and adding to the culture of abuse that these
athletes are having to face right now. I think here
we all have a responsibility not to add to the
hate speech.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Really take our.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Time before we judge how someone looks, because gender identity
is much more complex than that, and it's much more
Complex and sport as well.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Thanks for joining us, Holly. That's it for this episode
of the Front Page. You can read more about today's
stories and extensive news coverage at enzedherld dot co dot z.
The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sells with sound
engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front
(18:55):
Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and
tune into Borrow for another look behind the headlines.
Kioda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page,
a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. The
twenty twenty four Olympics has seen plenty of sporting highs
as well as heartbreak for competitors around the world, but
no competition has sparked more debate and controversy than the
(00:29):
women's boxing. The inclusion of Algeria's Ahman Khalif and Taiwan's
Lynn U Ting has sparked a firestorm after they were
both banned from International Boxing Association competitions last year citing
negative gender tests. The issue has blown up during the
(00:50):
Olympics after Italy's Angela Karini called off her match against
Khalif only after a few seconds, prompting outrage from a
divert first list of politicians and celebrities, including Donald Trump,
jk Rowling, Elon Musk, Logan Pohl and our very own
Winston Peters and Israel Adisania.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
But as new.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Information has shone light on the complexities of the case,
it's once again ignited a debate around women in sport,
with both boxes now guaranteed medals at the Olympics. Today,
on the front page. We're joined by University of y
Kato Professor of Sociology in Sport and Gender, Holly Thorpe,
to discuss the controversy. Holly, from your understanding, has Emman
(01:42):
Khalif ever identified as male?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
No, from my understanding, she was born female and lived
her life as a female.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So what's the controversy here? Why was she banned by
the International Boxing Association alongside Lynn Uting?
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Opened last year at boxing competition hosted by the International
Boxing Association. It was hosted in Russia, and my understanding
is that both Khalif and Uting's gender identity was questioned
at that event, and it was the IBA president Umar
Kremlev of Russia who suggested that those two athletes had
(02:23):
X Y chromosomes, and then they were subsequently disqualified. And
other sources say that they questioned that they had elevated
levels of testosterone. But obviously the IBA is not the
organizing body running boxing in the Olympics and have been
largely discredited for a number of reasons, not just this,
a whole lot of issues, but yeah, it was these
(02:45):
questions about their gender identities were raised last year and
then have been brought up again with the Olympics.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yeah, what can you tell us about the controversies involving
the IBA. I understand it's not even running the boxing
at the Olympics anymore.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Yes, that is correct.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
They lost their permission to be the world governing body
of boxing. My understanding that was for issues relating to transparency,
the culture of that organization, number of kind of ethical concerns.
So yeah, their permission was taken away from the IOC.
So that's why the IOC set up a separate sort
(03:25):
of unit to run boxing at the Paris Olympics.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Could you give us some background on sex testing? I mean,
what even is it?
Speaker 3 (03:32):
For a start, Yeah, it's evolved over the years.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
So in nineteen sixty eight, many sportswomen who wanted to
compete in the Olympics had to undergo sex testing, which
was basically rather humiliating tests to prove their sex identities.
In the early days, this was visual examination of their
genitals in front of doctors and other medical experts. So
over time this evolved to being blood tests documenting hormone
(03:59):
levels or chromosome testing. Men never had to do these tests.
The assumption underplaying this was if you're a woman and
you're really good at sport, you could perhaps be a
man masquerading as a female. So you know, these tests
were always with that kind of assumption.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Should make this absolutely clear for everyone. This is not
a transgender issue. I know you know that, but I
think there has been some misreporting on this, and I
think it's very very important to say that this is
not a transgender issue. Many women can have testosterone which
is in what would be called male levels and still
be women and still compete as women. So this idea
(04:36):
that suddenly you do one test for a testosterone and
that's also everything else not the case, I'm afraid.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
So yeah, there's been various versions of these tests, but
they've been heavily critiqued over the years for their accuracy
and recognizing that, you know, it's not just testosterone that
has an impact on people's performance, and recognizing that sporting
performance and gender are way more complex than just hormones. So,
after many years of critique, the IOCs stopped using those
(05:08):
sex testing or gender verification in nineteen ninety nine and
engage in a big process of trying to develop a
new set of guidelines in terms of gender identity and
participating in the Olympics, which really prioritizes basic human rights
of privacy and inclusion and participation. And I really think
this is where the big issue is, whether it's this
(05:28):
case other cases that kind of blow up and we
have a whole media debacle and lots of public interest,
and I think it's the shift from sport historically a
separated men and woman, and the sex testing was very
much based on biological, physiological understandings of sex. But what
the IOC is moving towards is thinking about gender, which
(05:49):
is way more complex, right, social psychological, how people identify
as much more fluid in our societies today, and the iOS.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Is trying to move in that direction.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
But so many people and so many organizations are still
very stuck in sport as being divided by sexes.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
So it's a really.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Interesting moment of change, I think, and that's where we're
having a lot of debate and debate within these organizations, right,
debate between the IOC and the International Boxing Association. There's
a lot of organizations that are stumbling around and trying
to figure out the best way forward.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
This incident has put the spotlight on those with differences
in sex development. People may remember the case of Castor Semenya,
the South African runner who essentially was banned from competing
in sport as you had higher levels of testosterone.
Speaker 5 (06:41):
Here you are, you are eighteen years of age and
then you are asked if you're not women enough. Yeah,
regardless of the defenses that you have in your body.
But I think for me, what I had to turn around,
just like the humiliation, you know, is justice and people
treating me with no respect for me. I had to
(07:02):
just carry myself and knowing what I stand for.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Are there some cisgender women who just naturally have higher testosterone?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yes, well, you know, our hormones fluctuate during different stages
of our lives. Some men have more, some men have
less testosterone. Many women have testosterone to varying extents. So
that's why testing just based on testosterone is really problematic.
You know, we don't know the full case of caliph
or uting. I think it's got really muddied the whole
(07:35):
kind of storyline with how the IBA dealt with this.
But the important thing is that the IOC International Olympic
Committee for women to compete in the boxing at the Olympics,
all they need to prove is their gender identity in
their passport. They don't need to do a blood test,
they don't need to prove.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Their hormones or chromosomes.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
It is their gender identities and their passports and that
is all the IOC requires. So whether they are into
sex or not, whether they have X Y chromosomes or not,
that's really not up into the debate because they are
participating fully legally, following all the rules and regulations set
out by the International imp Committee.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
The misinformation and cruelty directed towards these two boxes, these
two women has been immense They've been mis gendered and
labeled men. Piers Morgan tweeted a photo of Khalif and said,
if this is a biological female, I'm a biological ardvark.
For example. Is this anything other than just outright discrimination
coming for a muscular athlete with short hair who doesn't look,
(08:41):
I suppose like your stereotypical woman.
Speaker 6 (08:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
The abuse was wide ranging, and we definitely had a
number of very high profile figures from Trump to you know,
people with huge followings, making very prude and cumulating kind
of remarks about her gender identity. And I think a
lot of people kind of looked at the photos and
made decisions themselves thinking, oh, you know, she's got short hair,
(09:08):
a strong jawline, and actually genders much more complex than
what we look like or we have short hair, and
so I think a lot of people got kind of
caught out by assuming or making assumptions and yeah, like
you're saying, Unfortunately, this kind of online abuse was very.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Widespread and it's harmful.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
This really hurts athletes, but it also hurts the next
generation of young athletes who you know, can see that
if you don't perform a particular version of femininity, you
might get this kind of level of abuse, which is
very harmful.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
At Tokyo in twenty twenty one, New Zealander Laurel Hubbard
competed in the weightlifting as a trans woman. Have sporting
codes progressed in the last three years in addressing trans
women and those with DSD yes.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I think I mentioned this before. It's a very uneven landscape.
So whereas the Internationallympic Committee set out this framework really
trying to be guided by inclusive understandings of gender, this
is only a framework. So they're kind of using this
to encourage other international organizations to follow in their lead,
but others are not right, and others are doing their
(10:14):
own thing, like World Athletics is still using testosterone testing
and it's yeah. I think what we're seeing is some countries,
some sports organizations really trying to move towards more inclusive
understandings of gender as it relates to sport, and they're
drawing upon the research and lots of consultation to do so.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
And then we've got other organizations that.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Are still basically using pretty archaic methods of sex testing.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
We've seen progress towards more inclusive approaches, and I think
we're seeing this in the Olympics, But those levels of
governance in high level sport, you know, the IOC doesn't
get to actually make the rules.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Those international sports organizations also can set their own rules
and regulations, and then how that works alongside the IOC, etc.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Is where things are getting kind of sticky. Now.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
I should mention that DSD is an acronym for differences
in sex development. So the NHS says it's a rare
group of conditions involving genes, hormones, and reproductive organs, including genitals.
It means a person's sex development is just different to
most other peoples. I suppose, So when it comes to DSD.
Do we just need to accept that some people have
(11:34):
a biological advantage in sport? Say in the same breath
that Lebron James would easily win a game of one
on one against a five foot five man.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Oh, I think you know you're right.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
I mean the bodies that we're born into, whether it's
our height, whether it's our hand size, whether it's our
foot size, will give some people biological advantages. And I
wouldn't say that testosterone or the sex body that we're
born into is just one part of many aspects that
make for strong or lesser than performances. But also, if
(12:07):
you think about performance, it's also the country that you're
born into, the kinds of funding and support that wraps
around an athlete. Do you have funding for a good
coach and good facilities and enough money to be able
to travel to compete.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
And train elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
So there's so many things that come into performance and
biology is one of them.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
But biologies much more than just sex.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Absolutely, And what I find interesting about this debate as well,
this is the Olympics, so this is the world's best
of the best. Algeria is going to send their best
women's boxer to the Olympics, just like Jamaica sent Usain
Bolt to the Olympics. Did the likes of Usain Bolt,
for example, have to undergo any kind of testing other
than perhaps drug testing to prove why he ran the
(12:51):
way that he ran.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
My understanding that male athletes have never had to undergo
gender verification, And you're right. We look at Michael Phelps
for example. You know, huge feet, tall, big hands. I mean,
these are biological advantages in swimming, but we're not accusing
him of any unfair advantage, right, But yeah, you're right.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
These questions are directed at women, powerful strong women who
challenge particular versions of gender identity.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
But often it's not all women who are targeted by
these types of questioning. It's often non white athletes, black
and brown Sportswomen in particular are those who, when they
are strong, when they are powerful, when they are winning,
are often questioned about their gender identities and then have
(13:40):
to undergo, you know, there's pretty horrific kinds of practices
to prove they are a woman. So I think there's
a whole lot of not just gendered issues here, but
also of race that's important to address. I think they're
going on here in this case as well, But these
are ethical issues which are always complex.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters tweeted about this case last week,
saying this is why NZED first fought for gender rules
in sport to be in our Coalition Agreement for Fairness
and Safety in Women's Sports, putting aside the fact that
he too misgendered Khalief. What more needs to be done
(14:18):
when it comes to trans women in sport Because we've
got governments banning or restricting children and teams from accessing
puberty blockers, but then bodies ruling out those who have
gone through puberty that can't compete. Is there a win
here at all? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
So obviously the case we're talking about here is not
about transgender athletes. But I know that Sport New Zealand
over a number of years has been working really hard
on their transgender guidelines to support sports organizations at the
community level to how to be more inclusive and respectful
of people's different gender identities. So there's been a lot
(14:54):
of work that's gone on there. We've seen over in
Australia they've been doing that work as well, really prioritizing inclusion,
recognizing that to participate in sport as a human right,
both at the community level and all the way up
to the elite levels. So we're seeing some countries and
sports organizations doing a lot of work in this space.
But you're right, it is increasingly politicized and used as
(15:18):
a political football, unfortunately, and these are real people's lives,
and I think we need to recognize that for many people,
particularly transgender people, participating in sport has not been.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
A very positive experience.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
You know, even when we see transgender athletes at the
Olympic Games, for example, they're not dominating, right, Laurel Hubbard
didn't win the gold medal. We shouldn't assume to transgender
athletes go through and annihilate the competition. So there's been
a lot of that language around using fairness and safety
to justify these decisions. But raally, a lot of sports
(15:54):
organizations are moving towards equity and inclusion. So there's a
lot of movement happening, and unfortunately these topics have been
heavily politicized.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
How do you feel when you see women's rights activists
holding signs outside Olympic venues? I mean, as a cisgendered woman,
myself I don't feel great when I see that.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah, I think in a way this is a bit
of a storm and a teacup. You know, what we've
seen in Paris is supposedly the gender equitable games, right.
We finally, after many many years, we have fifty percent
women competing and that is something to celebrate. But there
are still so many issues facing women's sport in terms
of making sure that they are safe. We have good
(16:36):
safeguarding practices against systematic abuse.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
We've seen this in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
We've seen this in the high profile cases like USA
Gymnastics and Volleyball Australia.
Speaker 6 (16:47):
The Board of Volleyball Australia has issued an apology to
former players who suffered through an environment to fear, coercive control,
physical and psychological abuse between nineteen ninety seven and two
thousand and five, and some were as young fourteen during
that time.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
So these are the really important issues in terms of
making sports safe for women. But a lot of you know,
these topics get a lot of media coverage and I
think mostly it's a bit of a distraction from these
real issues, and we don't see some of these groups
really getting involved and really trying to make sport a
safe place for women. It's more around these issues of
(17:27):
gender identity and who does and does not belong where.
I think that's really a bit of a distraction from
the real issues in women's sport today.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Holly, once the dust settles on this controversy, what would
you hope that people take away from it? And what
issues should we really be focused on? You mentioned a
few there when it comes to women in sport.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Yeah, I think we need to all of us, and
perhaps myself at times, to be really careful, you know,
not to judge a book by its cover, right, not
to judge a main calief by a photo. Actually, gender
identities way more complex than what one looks like. And
when we see that headline or we see that post
(18:07):
from someone famous, we need to do our own research
and we need to dig deeper and read more informed
pieces before we have an opinion and start sharing that
around and adding to the culture of abuse that these
athletes are having to face right now. I think here
we all have a responsibility not to add to the
hate speech.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Really take our.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Time before we judge how someone looks, because gender identity
is much more complex than that, and it's much more
Complex and sport as well.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Thanks for joining us, Holly. That's it for this episode
of the Front Page. You can read more about today's
stories and extensive news coverage at enzedherld dot co dot z.
The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sells with sound
engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front
(18:55):
Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and
tune into Borrow for another look behind the headlines.
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