In recent months, stories of extreme turbulence have come to dominate travel headlines.
A flight between Spain and Uruguay this week had to be diverted to Brazil after dozens were injured due to turbulence in just the latest incident. In one case in April, a man onboard an Air New Zealand flight from Bali broke his leg, while in May, a violent Singapore Airlines flight saw dozens hospitalised and one passenger die.
On top of this, we’re also seeing multiple stories of domestic flights where planes have had issues landing, and local and international flights getting turned around midway through their journeys due to technical issues.
So why are more flights seeing extreme turbulence, should we be concerned by flights turning around, and what are your rights as a passenger if flights go wrong?
Today on The Front Page, chief executive of Massey University’s School of Aviation, Ashok Podavul, talks about the technical side of what happens when things go wrong, and later, Consumer NZ's Jessica Walker discusses
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Sound Engineer: Paddy Fox
Producer: Ethan Sills
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Gilda.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. In recent months,
stories of extreme turbulence have come to dominate travel headlines.
A flight between Spain and Uruguay this week had to
(00:26):
be diverted to Brazil after dozens were injured due to turbulence.
In one case, in April, a man on board an
Air New Zealand flight from Balley broke his leg, while
in May, a violent Singapore Airlines flight saw dozens hospitalized
and one passenger dive. On top of all this, we're
also seeing multiple stories of domestic flights where planes have
(00:50):
had issues landing, and local and international flights getting turned
around midway through their journeys due to technical issues. So
why are more flights seeing extreme turbulence? Should we be
concerned by flights turning around? And what are your rights
as a passenger if flights go wrong. We'll touch on
that last point later, but first on the front Page,
(01:12):
we're joined by the chief executive of Massy University's School
of Aviation as Shock potal Wall. Just to start with
the shock, I understand you've got over twelve thousand hours
of airline jet flying experience. Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Yes, that would be correct.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
So you know what you're talking about when it comes
to planes.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
I would like to think so.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
So a shock. When we talk about turbulence, what are
we referring to exactly?
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Turbulence has simply put the movement of air created by
atmospheric pressure. You know things called jet streams, floor around mountains, thunderstorms, etc.
To give you an analogy, it's like a car is
traveling at six hundred kilometers per how if it hits
a bumpy st road, you will be jolted in the air.
It's basically horizontal or vertical changes in wind speed, which
(02:05):
is called wind shear that happens when the aircraft is
traveling through the air, and that causes the turbulence.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Why do you think extreme turbulence is becoming more of
an issue now? I've seen some suggestions that climate change
is to blame.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Well, all I can said the stage is that is
a theory that is being put forward, and the number
of incidents of turbulence in recent times have been more
in quick succession. Put it that way, Whether this is
going to be an ongoing trend or not remains to
be seen. But there is a study that you or
(02:41):
may or may not have seen by the University of
Reading where they have talked about the link between climate
change and turbulence and they're forecasting that turbulence incidents are
going to increase in future. They've done a study from
nineteen seventy nine onwards, I believe, and they're focusing that
(03:03):
the increase due to basically a climate change is what
they're saying. There would be more incidents of turblence, But
at the moment, I would say this could be a
cluster because you have things like cluster of events happening
random events, and that then creates a perception that there
is an increase in that particular type of event.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
There's also been dozens of stories in recent weeks involving
planes departing New Zealand and then actually having to turn
around mid flight due to technical issues. What goes into
that decision making to turn a flight around, Well.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
That entirely depends on the nature of the issue.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
Chelsea, because if it is an issue that would impact
the progress of the flight ongoing and it's not safe,
then the pilots would take a decision to come back
and a lot of these decisions are also taken in
conjunction with the ground because most airlines have something called
an integrated Operations Control Center, and so they're constantly in touch.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
With the aircraft.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
So the nature of the problem is communicated there, and
then the pilots can make a decision either to carry
on or to divert to an alternative field, or to
turn around and come back. So it just depends on
the circumstances.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
And I suppose we can have solace in the fact
that if a flight does have to turn around, it
really does, doesn't I saw it just yesterday in Auckland
to China. Flight had to turn back after seven hours
of flying. Could you imagine being up in the air
for fourteen hours and ending up in the same place
where you left off from. But I can imagine that
(04:30):
there would have been some serious conversations and it would
have actually had to seriously turn back.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Hey, absolutely correct. That kind of a decision is not
made by one individual. They said, communicate the information that's
available to the OPS control center, which has engineers, which
has operations people, you know, the whole range of the
commercial staff there, and then they make a considered decision.
Something like this are not made likely. J just now passengers
are not going to be very happy with that.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Virgil, a flight from Queenstown to Melbourne has been diverted
to in Vericago.
Speaker 5 (05:04):
We have just received this video of the plane with
flames being seen coming from one of the engines.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
It started out as a seemingly normal landing in christ Church.
That soon flight JQ two to five from Auckland slid
off the runway.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
We've seen two problem flights at Invicago Airport of all places,
in the past month. One Melbourne bound flight from Queenstown
had to make an emergency landing after the engines seemed
to catch fire, while a domestic flight had to circle
the surrounding area for two hours after landing gear issues.
In your experience as a pilot, how common are technical
(05:44):
issues like this?
Speaker 4 (05:46):
I have a background with mathematics. You know, the probability
of something happening is mathematically extremely low. There are about
roughly between ninety nine thousand to one hundred thousand flights
globally every day. With that volume of flights, if you
have a few odd incidents happening, I don't know if
they happen every day percentage or probability of the currents
(06:07):
of such events is extremely rare.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Now the one about the engine fire.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
You talked about engine fires are very rare, so our
aircraft fires, catastrophic failures.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Are extremely rare. Just a little bit.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
Of information for you if you're interested that for an
aircraft to be certified, the risk of any catastrophic component failure,
the components that are critical and that would cause a
catastrophic failure, the risk of that has to be lower
than one to ten to the power of nine, one
upon ten to the power of nine, or ten to
the power of minus nine.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
It has to be lower than that.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
So basically what you're saying is, if you throw ten
dice and the chances of all of them coming up
with the same number, the probable of a catastrophic failure
has to be.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Less than that.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Does the public have a right to panic in these situations?
And what would your advice be?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Okay, so let's look at what can be done about it.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
One of the things that I always advocated keeping the
seat bills on at all times when seated, even if
you're sleeping. Keep the seat bilts on, perhaps loosely, but
keep it on and you may see that most salelines
have an announcement saying it's recommended that seat bills should
be kept on. I'm not sure if any measures are
going to be taken now with increasing number of turbulence
(07:17):
incident possibilities, whether they will mandate that, because for takeoff
and landing it's mandated you have to have your seat
bilts on in the air during crews. Whether you have
to keep it on or not as a mandatory requirement,
I'm not sure, but there is conversations happening around that.
But keeping it on at all times except maybe you're
stretching your legs or going to toilet is most important.
That's one that's really the key thing that a passenger
(07:41):
can do when on flight to remain safe. It's no
different from bearing a seat built when you're in the
car driving.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Earlier this year we saw several incidents involving Boeing planes.
Are you concerned at all by what you're saying in
regards to Boeing.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
Boeing has unfortunately had some issues around quality assurance, and
there's investigations going on in America. Federal avis administration has
started investigations. The Boeing chief executive has had to face
a Senate hearing a while ago about these issues. There
are thousands, hundreds of thousands of Boeing aircraft flying across
the world, so I don't see any immediate serious issue
(08:17):
because once again the aviation industry, the moment anything is
identified that could be a significant risk, they've ground the
entire fleet, like you might have heard about the Boeing
Max issues, which happened when two Amax aircraft crashed some
some years ago, and then they grounded the whole Max
fleet for about two years before they could get it
back up into the air. So the safety structure scaffolding
(08:39):
around airline operations or aircraft operations is quite robust when.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
We talk about quality assurance issues within Boeing and that's
being investigated. Is that like taking your analogy with the dice?
Have they not rolled that dice ten times?
Speaker 4 (08:53):
I suppose not exactly, just that there were some whistleblowers
who talked about them taking some shortcuts, you know, where
the commercial imperative overcomes the safety impertative, so to PA speak.
So I'm not quite sure. I can't speak for what
kind of shortcuts, if any, because I can only read
what's in the news because they talk about going having
cut some corners when they were manufacturing aircraft, So that's
(09:18):
really the issue. But I wouldn't say that it's anything
around when I talked about rolling the dice, because those
are what you call critical components which would cause an
aircraft to crash if they were not quality issued appropertly.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
In terms of these events, how much of it is
technological challenges and how much of it is actually in
the hands of the pilot? Sully comes to mind for me.
Is there a balance there?
Speaker 3 (09:42):
There is?
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Aircraft are very highly automated, So what's happening these days
is the role of the pilot is changing from basic
stick and rudder. If you go back fifty years, when
it was all about your capability to practically handle the
aircraft physically, it's changed from that into actually managing the
automation to achieve a safe outcome. So, yes, the role
(10:03):
of the pilot is changing. Automation has made it very
much safer. There are there are many types of accidents
that used to happen in the past that have been
significantly reduced.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
For example, flight into terrain.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
We have terrain avoidance warning systems that's stopped a lot
of terrain related accidents where people are descended into terrain
without knowing that it was there in bad weather, for example.
Then there's the what's called the traffic advisory systems that
they have on aircraft where it actually tells you when
there's another aircraft closing or within within a particular range.
(10:35):
It gives you a warning. And now the automated systems
will actually take over and take aways of action as needed.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
So there are.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Various technological advancements that have made huge improvements in safety,
and the pilots have to learn how to manage that
automation and also trust the automation and make decisions which
are based on the circumstance of the time. So yes,
the role is changing, but it's a combination of both.
The automation is a huge help for pilots.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 5 (11:04):
A shock.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
When we board a plane, we all expect to get
to our destination in one piece, not end up in
a different country or even back where we started. But
what are your rights as a passenger when things do
go wrong? We're joined now by Consumer and z Ed's
Jessica Walker. Let's start with turbulence. Jessica, if you get
(11:36):
injured mid flight, what can you actually do about it
from a consumer point of view.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
So turbulence is a really interesting one and this isn't
something that our members have complained to us about as yet,
so we don't have advice ready to go. But you know,
generally speaking, when something happens that is outside the airlines control,
so something like turbulence. You know, looking at what happened
with the recent extreme event, I believe it was the
Singapore Airlines or it's between things poor in an Auckland flight.
(12:01):
The airline seem to handle that really well. So that'll
be your first part of call would be to go
to the airline, ask for us this sense and see
what they can do to help you out. We've been
reading that this is something that is expected to be
increasing in coming years, and so it's something that consumers
do need to be aware of when they're bucking flights.
I know from my experience in the office that people
who are already nervous travelers, it's giving them something else
(12:22):
to worry about. But it's really important that you have
a conversation with the airline if anything like that is
to happen, because that will be your best part of call.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
It's probably more common that your flight might end up
in the wrong destination hey, or actually back where it's
started in some cases, what can you do in this situation?
Is that something you can take up with the airliner
or get a refund, or what can you do.
Speaker 5 (12:44):
So again, that would be something that's clustered outside the
airline's control because you know, they couldn't have foreseen that happening.
Or you know, if there's an extreme weather event which
results in in turbulence, then they're doing what they can
to keep you safe. And so it's not, for example,
like a maintenance issue with an aeroplane, which means that
either your flight's delayed or canceled or you end up
(13:04):
in the wrong city. In those circumstances, you've got really
clear rights. And so in an example where there is
an extreme event like turbulence and the airline has done
all it can to protect you but gets you to
the safest point of disembarking if you like, then the
rules it would be different when.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
We talk about things that are in the airline's control.
What kind of things are those?
Speaker 5 (13:26):
So that's things like maintenance. So if there's a problem
with the airplane, which means it can't take off if
there's something like staff sickness, which happened and awful like
this time two years ago. We were calling it air
Mageddon in the office, and that was because so many
flights were being canceled because of staff shortages due to
a COVID wave.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
In New Zealand. S is it's cutting its flight schedule
over the next six months. There's the airline experiences the
highest level and crew sicknesses, and over a decade, around
one hundred thousand passengers will have your flights canceled or rescheduled,
which is concerns about the rights of consumers.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
So all those things, the things that theoretically are within
the control of the airline, things that are outside of
the control of the airline are things that wouldn't really
come as a surprise to you. So and the COVID
restrictions were in place and flights were grounded, we knew
what the rules were, and so it was no surprise
to any of us that certain flights weren't taking off.
Or if there is really extreme weather, you know, for example,
you look at the window and it's really thick fog,
(14:28):
then it's not going to be a surprise to you
that the airline decides to cancel or delay a flight
and that is for safety issues, but that is something
that they couldn't have foreseen, and so in those instances
we were classed as outside the airlines control, and so
your rights are quite different.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
What are your rights when say your flight is canceled
due to something within the airline's control.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
So if it's a domestic flight and the cancelation is
for reasons within the airlines'es control, the first thing we
would always urge impacted passengers to do is to find
out what the reason for the cancelation or delay is,
because we are hearing that this is getting better, that
communications from airlines is improving, and that's something we've pushed
them really hard on. But it used to be they
(15:10):
weren't always upfront about the reason for the cancelation or delay,
which put you in a really tricky situation as a
consumer to know what your rights were. But if the
airline is clear with you that So the example I
gave before, you know a maintenance issue which means that
the flight is unavailable or the planes unavailable, then in
that instance you are entitled to reimbursement up to ten
times the cost of the ticket or the cost of
(15:32):
the delay, whichever is lower. So the cost of delay
could be things like a new flight, perhaps accommodation if
there isn't a flight available until the next day to
meals so you know, you shouldn't be in a worse
off position just because the flight didn't take off. See,
you need to keep hold of all of your receipts
and then submit those to the airline and put your
claim in. You'd find that both the airlines jets down
(15:54):
in their New Zealand would say that claims have to
be reasonable. So what that means is, you know, you
couldn't go and buck into a five style hotel that's
five hundred dollars a night and expect to get that reimbursed.
For one reason, it's because there is a cap of
ten times the cost of the ticket. But also they
would say that that's not really fair. However, if the
only accommodation that is available is that price and it
(16:16):
does come within the lower end of the limit, it's
not your fault, is it. So I think the thing
to bear in mind is that you shouldn't be out
of pocket because of a delay or cancelation that is
within the airlines control and.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Other things you can ask for as well. You mentioned meals,
but also perhaps could you get a change of clothes, toothbrush, toothpaste,
things like that.
Speaker 5 (16:34):
Yeah, I mean, I guess it would depend on the
situation because it is all about what's reasonable. So you know,
so you're traveling and your somewhere longer than you're expected
to be, so it might be that you need, you know,
something to sleep in and a clean pair of bundis
for the next day, in a toothbrush, you know, so
that they would be reasonable things that you could claim for.
But you couldn't go out and buy a whole new wardrobe,
so it's just about being reasonable. Otherwise the airline is
(16:55):
likely to decline your request.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Is that the same with international flights as will or
is it slightly different.
Speaker 5 (17:01):
International flights is different because it depends who you are
flying with where you're flying to and from. So for example,
if you are whether European airline or departing from a
European airline, you've got great protections. So it's definitely worth
heading to our website or doing a Google just to
see what your rights are if you are impacted by
(17:21):
an international delay. Or cancelation, because it really is quite
different for different jurisdictions. So the States have got different rules,
Australia has different rules. So the advice that I'm giving
now relates to domestic airlines, but most times you will
have some really pretty good protections. So it really pays
to not necessarily just take what the international airline is
(17:41):
telling you as gospel. You know, from my own experience,
I've had to put your hard in the past with
British airways. My in laws have done the same, and
it works. If you know you're rights, you are in
a really powerful position.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
I guess a lot of people may be quite surprised
on what they actually can claim.
Speaker 5 (17:56):
I think that's right, and that's one of the reasons
that we launched a campaign a couple of years ago.
We called it our Flight Rights Campaign, and that's because
we were getting no end of members and people that
were aware of us getting in touch to say they
were surprised that the flight was delayed or canceled and
all of a sudden, they're incurring all these fees. And
what we found was that people didn't understand their rights
because the airlines weren't being upfront and you know worst
(18:18):
case scenario. We found that some people were actually being
misled and we didn't think that was fair, and that
could have been that they just weren't being told their rights,
but also there were some airlines telling people that they
could claim up to a set field. I think it
was one hundred and fifty dollars a night for accommodation
and thirty dollars for a meal. But our argument was
that's not fair because that's not actually in the Civil
Aviation Act, that's not written down anywhere, and so of
(18:40):
course any reimbursement claims should be reasonable, but people shouldn't
be out of pocket, and so we think it's really
important that people do familiarize themselves with their rights. And
as they say, we are hearing anecdotally that the moment
there has been a flurry of cancelations and it does
seem that Air New Zealand and this instance have been
really good and upfront about the reason for the cancelation.
(19:01):
But it's definitely worth doing a quick google head to
our campaign page just to find out what your rights
are so that you can make sure you're not being
shortchanged if you fail to take off.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
JESSICAA.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzedherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
produced by Ethan Siles with sound engineer Paddy Fox. I'm
Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or
wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for
(19:38):
another look behind the headlines.
Gilda.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. In recent months,
stories of extreme turbulence have come to dominate travel headlines.
A flight between Spain and Uruguay this week had to
(00:26):
be diverted to Brazil after dozens were injured due to turbulence.
In one case, in April, a man on board an
Air New Zealand flight from Balley broke his leg, while
in May, a violent Singapore Airlines flight saw dozens hospitalized
and one passenger dive. On top of all this, we're
also seeing multiple stories of domestic flights where planes have
(00:50):
had issues landing, and local and international flights getting turned
around midway through their journeys due to technical issues. So
why are more flights seeing extreme turbulence? Should we be
concerned by flights turning around? And what are your rights
as a passenger if flights go wrong. We'll touch on
that last point later, but first on the front Page,
(01:12):
we're joined by the chief executive of Massy University's School
of Aviation as Shock potal Wall. Just to start with
the shock, I understand you've got over twelve thousand hours
of airline jet flying experience. Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Yes, that would be correct.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
So you know what you're talking about when it comes
to planes.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
I would like to think so.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
So a shock. When we talk about turbulence, what are
we referring to exactly?
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Turbulence has simply put the movement of air created by
atmospheric pressure. You know things called jet streams, floor around mountains, thunderstorms, etc.
To give you an analogy, it's like a car is
traveling at six hundred kilometers per how if it hits
a bumpy st road, you will be jolted in the air.
It's basically horizontal or vertical changes in wind speed, which
(02:05):
is called wind shear that happens when the aircraft is
traveling through the air, and that causes the turbulence.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Why do you think extreme turbulence is becoming more of
an issue now? I've seen some suggestions that climate change
is to blame.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Well, all I can said the stage is that is
a theory that is being put forward, and the number
of incidents of turbulence in recent times have been more
in quick succession. Put it that way, Whether this is
going to be an ongoing trend or not remains to
be seen. But there is a study that you or
(02:41):
may or may not have seen by the University of
Reading where they have talked about the link between climate
change and turbulence and they're forecasting that turbulence incidents are
going to increase in future. They've done a study from
nineteen seventy nine onwards, I believe, and they're focusing that
(03:03):
the increase due to basically a climate change is what
they're saying. There would be more incidents of turblence, But
at the moment, I would say this could be a
cluster because you have things like cluster of events happening
random events, and that then creates a perception that there
is an increase in that particular type of event.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
There's also been dozens of stories in recent weeks involving
planes departing New Zealand and then actually having to turn
around mid flight due to technical issues. What goes into
that decision making to turn a flight around, Well.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
That entirely depends on the nature of the issue.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
Chelsea, because if it is an issue that would impact
the progress of the flight ongoing and it's not safe,
then the pilots would take a decision to come back
and a lot of these decisions are also taken in
conjunction with the ground because most airlines have something called
an integrated Operations Control Center, and so they're constantly in touch.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
With the aircraft.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
So the nature of the problem is communicated there, and
then the pilots can make a decision either to carry
on or to divert to an alternative field, or to
turn around and come back. So it just depends on
the circumstances.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
And I suppose we can have solace in the fact
that if a flight does have to turn around, it
really does, doesn't I saw it just yesterday in Auckland
to China. Flight had to turn back after seven hours
of flying. Could you imagine being up in the air
for fourteen hours and ending up in the same place
where you left off from. But I can imagine that
(04:30):
there would have been some serious conversations and it would
have actually had to seriously turn back.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Hey, absolutely correct. That kind of a decision is not
made by one individual. They said, communicate the information that's
available to the OPS control center, which has engineers, which
has operations people, you know, the whole range of the
commercial staff there, and then they make a considered decision.
Something like this are not made likely. J just now passengers
are not going to be very happy with that.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Virgil, a flight from Queenstown to Melbourne has been diverted
to in Vericago.
Speaker 5 (05:04):
We have just received this video of the plane with
flames being seen coming from one of the engines.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
It started out as a seemingly normal landing in christ Church.
That soon flight JQ two to five from Auckland slid
off the runway.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
We've seen two problem flights at Invicago Airport of all places,
in the past month. One Melbourne bound flight from Queenstown
had to make an emergency landing after the engines seemed
to catch fire, while a domestic flight had to circle
the surrounding area for two hours after landing gear issues.
In your experience as a pilot, how common are technical
(05:44):
issues like this?
Speaker 4 (05:46):
I have a background with mathematics. You know, the probability
of something happening is mathematically extremely low. There are about
roughly between ninety nine thousand to one hundred thousand flights
globally every day. With that volume of flights, if you
have a few odd incidents happening, I don't know if
they happen every day percentage or probability of the currents
(06:07):
of such events is extremely rare.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Now the one about the engine fire.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
You talked about engine fires are very rare, so our
aircraft fires, catastrophic failures.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Are extremely rare. Just a little bit.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
Of information for you if you're interested that for an
aircraft to be certified, the risk of any catastrophic component failure,
the components that are critical and that would cause a
catastrophic failure, the risk of that has to be lower
than one to ten to the power of nine, one
upon ten to the power of nine, or ten to
the power of minus nine.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
It has to be lower than that.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
So basically what you're saying is, if you throw ten
dice and the chances of all of them coming up
with the same number, the probable of a catastrophic failure
has to be.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Less than that.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Does the public have a right to panic in these situations?
And what would your advice be?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Okay, so let's look at what can be done about it.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
One of the things that I always advocated keeping the
seat bills on at all times when seated, even if
you're sleeping. Keep the seat bilts on, perhaps loosely, but
keep it on and you may see that most salelines
have an announcement saying it's recommended that seat bills should
be kept on. I'm not sure if any measures are
going to be taken now with increasing number of turbulence
(07:17):
incident possibilities, whether they will mandate that, because for takeoff
and landing it's mandated you have to have your seat
bilts on in the air during crews. Whether you have
to keep it on or not as a mandatory requirement,
I'm not sure, but there is conversations happening around that.
But keeping it on at all times except maybe you're
stretching your legs or going to toilet is most important.
That's one that's really the key thing that a passenger
(07:41):
can do when on flight to remain safe. It's no
different from bearing a seat built when you're in the
car driving.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Earlier this year we saw several incidents involving Boeing planes.
Are you concerned at all by what you're saying in
regards to Boeing.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
Boeing has unfortunately had some issues around quality assurance, and
there's investigations going on in America. Federal avis administration has
started investigations. The Boeing chief executive has had to face
a Senate hearing a while ago about these issues. There
are thousands, hundreds of thousands of Boeing aircraft flying across
the world, so I don't see any immediate serious issue
(08:17):
because once again the aviation industry, the moment anything is
identified that could be a significant risk, they've ground the
entire fleet, like you might have heard about the Boeing
Max issues, which happened when two Amax aircraft crashed some
some years ago, and then they grounded the whole Max
fleet for about two years before they could get it
back up into the air. So the safety structure scaffolding
(08:39):
around airline operations or aircraft operations is quite robust when.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
We talk about quality assurance issues within Boeing and that's
being investigated. Is that like taking your analogy with the dice?
Have they not rolled that dice ten times?
Speaker 4 (08:53):
I suppose not exactly, just that there were some whistleblowers
who talked about them taking some shortcuts, you know, where
the commercial imperative overcomes the safety impertative, so to PA speak.
So I'm not quite sure. I can't speak for what
kind of shortcuts, if any, because I can only read
what's in the news because they talk about going having
cut some corners when they were manufacturing aircraft, So that's
(09:18):
really the issue. But I wouldn't say that it's anything
around when I talked about rolling the dice, because those
are what you call critical components which would cause an
aircraft to crash if they were not quality issued appropertly.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
In terms of these events, how much of it is
technological challenges and how much of it is actually in
the hands of the pilot? Sully comes to mind for me.
Is there a balance there?
Speaker 3 (09:42):
There is?
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Aircraft are very highly automated, So what's happening these days
is the role of the pilot is changing from basic
stick and rudder. If you go back fifty years, when
it was all about your capability to practically handle the
aircraft physically, it's changed from that into actually managing the
automation to achieve a safe outcome. So, yes, the role
(10:03):
of the pilot is changing. Automation has made it very
much safer. There are there are many types of accidents
that used to happen in the past that have been
significantly reduced.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
For example, flight into terrain.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
We have terrain avoidance warning systems that's stopped a lot
of terrain related accidents where people are descended into terrain
without knowing that it was there in bad weather, for example.
Then there's the what's called the traffic advisory systems that
they have on aircraft where it actually tells you when
there's another aircraft closing or within within a particular range.
(10:35):
It gives you a warning. And now the automated systems
will actually take over and take aways of action as needed.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
So there are.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Various technological advancements that have made huge improvements in safety,
and the pilots have to learn how to manage that
automation and also trust the automation and make decisions which
are based on the circumstance of the time. So yes,
the role is changing, but it's a combination of both.
The automation is a huge help for pilots.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 5 (11:04):
A shock.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
When we board a plane, we all expect to get
to our destination in one piece, not end up in
a different country or even back where we started. But
what are your rights as a passenger when things do
go wrong? We're joined now by Consumer and z Ed's
Jessica Walker. Let's start with turbulence. Jessica, if you get
(11:36):
injured mid flight, what can you actually do about it
from a consumer point of view.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
So turbulence is a really interesting one and this isn't
something that our members have complained to us about as yet,
so we don't have advice ready to go. But you know,
generally speaking, when something happens that is outside the airlines control,
so something like turbulence. You know, looking at what happened
with the recent extreme event, I believe it was the
Singapore Airlines or it's between things poor in an Auckland flight.
(12:01):
The airline seem to handle that really well. So that'll
be your first part of call would be to go
to the airline, ask for us this sense and see
what they can do to help you out. We've been
reading that this is something that is expected to be
increasing in coming years, and so it's something that consumers
do need to be aware of when they're bucking flights.
I know from my experience in the office that people
who are already nervous travelers, it's giving them something else
(12:22):
to worry about. But it's really important that you have
a conversation with the airline if anything like that is
to happen, because that will be your best part of call.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
It's probably more common that your flight might end up
in the wrong destination hey, or actually back where it's
started in some cases, what can you do in this situation?
Is that something you can take up with the airliner
or get a refund, or what can you do.
Speaker 5 (12:44):
So again, that would be something that's clustered outside the
airline's control because you know, they couldn't have foreseen that happening.
Or you know, if there's an extreme weather event which
results in in turbulence, then they're doing what they can
to keep you safe. And so it's not, for example,
like a maintenance issue with an aeroplane, which means that
either your flight's delayed or canceled or you end up
(13:04):
in the wrong city. In those circumstances, you've got really
clear rights. And so in an example where there is
an extreme event like turbulence and the airline has done
all it can to protect you but gets you to
the safest point of disembarking if you like, then the
rules it would be different when.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
We talk about things that are in the airline's control.
What kind of things are those?
Speaker 5 (13:26):
So that's things like maintenance. So if there's a problem
with the airplane, which means it can't take off if
there's something like staff sickness, which happened and awful like
this time two years ago. We were calling it air
Mageddon in the office, and that was because so many
flights were being canceled because of staff shortages due to
a COVID wave.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
In New Zealand. S is it's cutting its flight schedule
over the next six months. There's the airline experiences the
highest level and crew sicknesses, and over a decade, around
one hundred thousand passengers will have your flights canceled or rescheduled,
which is concerns about the rights of consumers.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
So all those things, the things that theoretically are within
the control of the airline, things that are outside of
the control of the airline are things that wouldn't really
come as a surprise to you. So and the COVID
restrictions were in place and flights were grounded, we knew
what the rules were, and so it was no surprise
to any of us that certain flights weren't taking off.
Or if there is really extreme weather, you know, for example,
you look at the window and it's really thick fog,
(14:28):
then it's not going to be a surprise to you
that the airline decides to cancel or delay a flight
and that is for safety issues, but that is something
that they couldn't have foreseen, and so in those instances
we were classed as outside the airlines control, and so
your rights are quite different.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
What are your rights when say your flight is canceled
due to something within the airline's control.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
So if it's a domestic flight and the cancelation is
for reasons within the airlines'es control, the first thing we
would always urge impacted passengers to do is to find
out what the reason for the cancelation or delay is,
because we are hearing that this is getting better, that
communications from airlines is improving, and that's something we've pushed
them really hard on. But it used to be they
(15:10):
weren't always upfront about the reason for the cancelation or delay,
which put you in a really tricky situation as a
consumer to know what your rights were. But if the
airline is clear with you that So the example I
gave before, you know a maintenance issue which means that
the flight is unavailable or the planes unavailable, then in
that instance you are entitled to reimbursement up to ten
times the cost of the ticket or the cost of
(15:32):
the delay, whichever is lower. So the cost of delay
could be things like a new flight, perhaps accommodation if
there isn't a flight available until the next day to
meals so you know, you shouldn't be in a worse
off position just because the flight didn't take off. See,
you need to keep hold of all of your receipts
and then submit those to the airline and put your
claim in. You'd find that both the airlines jets down
(15:54):
in their New Zealand would say that claims have to
be reasonable. So what that means is, you know, you
couldn't go and buck into a five style hotel that's
five hundred dollars a night and expect to get that reimbursed.
For one reason, it's because there is a cap of
ten times the cost of the ticket. But also they
would say that that's not really fair. However, if the
only accommodation that is available is that price and it
(16:16):
does come within the lower end of the limit, it's
not your fault, is it. So I think the thing
to bear in mind is that you shouldn't be out
of pocket because of a delay or cancelation that is
within the airlines control and.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Other things you can ask for as well. You mentioned meals,
but also perhaps could you get a change of clothes, toothbrush, toothpaste,
things like that.
Speaker 5 (16:34):
Yeah, I mean, I guess it would depend on the
situation because it is all about what's reasonable. So you know,
so you're traveling and your somewhere longer than you're expected
to be, so it might be that you need, you know,
something to sleep in and a clean pair of bundis
for the next day, in a toothbrush, you know, so
that they would be reasonable things that you could claim for.
But you couldn't go out and buy a whole new wardrobe,
so it's just about being reasonable. Otherwise the airline is
(16:55):
likely to decline your request.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Is that the same with international flights as will or
is it slightly different.
Speaker 5 (17:01):
International flights is different because it depends who you are
flying with where you're flying to and from. So for example,
if you are whether European airline or departing from a
European airline, you've got great protections. So it's definitely worth
heading to our website or doing a Google just to
see what your rights are if you are impacted by
(17:21):
an international delay. Or cancelation, because it really is quite
different for different jurisdictions. So the States have got different rules,
Australia has different rules. So the advice that I'm giving
now relates to domestic airlines, but most times you will
have some really pretty good protections. So it really pays
to not necessarily just take what the international airline is
(17:41):
telling you as gospel. You know, from my own experience,
I've had to put your hard in the past with
British airways. My in laws have done the same, and
it works. If you know you're rights, you are in
a really powerful position.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
I guess a lot of people may be quite surprised
on what they actually can claim.
Speaker 5 (17:56):
I think that's right, and that's one of the reasons
that we launched a campaign a couple of years ago.
We called it our Flight Rights Campaign, and that's because
we were getting no end of members and people that
were aware of us getting in touch to say they
were surprised that the flight was delayed or canceled and
all of a sudden, they're incurring all these fees. And
what we found was that people didn't understand their rights
because the airlines weren't being upfront and you know worst
(18:18):
case scenario. We found that some people were actually being
misled and we didn't think that was fair, and that
could have been that they just weren't being told their rights,
but also there were some airlines telling people that they
could claim up to a set field. I think it
was one hundred and fifty dollars a night for accommodation
and thirty dollars for a meal. But our argument was
that's not fair because that's not actually in the Civil
Aviation Act, that's not written down anywhere, and so of
(18:40):
course any reimbursement claims should be reasonable, but people shouldn't
be out of pocket, and so we think it's really
important that people do familiarize themselves with their rights. And
as they say, we are hearing anecdotally that the moment
there has been a flurry of cancelations and it does
seem that Air New Zealand and this instance have been
really good and upfront about the reason for the cancelation.
(19:01):
But it's definitely worth doing a quick google head to
our campaign page just to find out what your rights
are so that you can make sure you're not being
shortchanged if you fail to take off.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
JESSICAA.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzedherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
produced by Ethan Siles with sound engineer Paddy Fox. I'm
Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or
wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for
(19:38):
another look behind the headlines.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!