August 14, 2024 • 13 mins
The Government has announced new restrictions for beneficiaries.
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Social Development Minister Louise Upston this week announced a new traffic light system, that comes with harsher penalties for those who don’t meet their obligations to attend meetings and look for work.
But what exactly do those sanctions mean, and why is National making this a priority now?
Today on The Front Page, NZ Herald political journalist Julia Gabel joins us to explain this new traffic light system.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Sound Engineer: Paddy Fox
Producer: Ethan Sills
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kielda.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Presented by the New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
The government has announced new restrictions for beneficiaries. Prime Minister
Christopher Luxen and Social Development Minister Louise Upston this week
announced a new traffic light system that comes with harsher
penalties for those who don't meet their obligations to attend
meetings and.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Look for work. But what exactly do those.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Sanctions mean and why is national making this a priority now?
Today on the front Page ends at Herald, political journalist
Julia Gable joins us to explain this new traffic light system. Julia,
can you take us through the three stages of the
(00:58):
new beneficiary traffic light system?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Yes, sure, cure to chuse. So on Monday, the government
announced this new traffic light system for people on the
benefit and so beneficiaries with work obligations. So that's people
who are required by the Ministry of Social Development to
be actively looking or preparing for work are included in
this new traffic light system. So there's three colors, and
a person's color within the scheme depends on their compliance
(01:24):
with their obligations. So there's Green. Beneficiaries on Green are
complying with their obligations. There's orange, and those recipients have
received either their first or second obligation breach and they
don't have a good reason for the transgression. They then
have five working days to contact the Ministry of Social
Development to discuss their breach, and if they successfully dispute
(01:47):
that obligation failure, then that original decision is overturned and
they can go back to green. Otherwise, if they haven't
done that successfully and they don't recomply within those five
working days, they move to red. Now under red, that
is when someone is actioned. So this could include their
benefit being reduced or stopped, but it can also include
from next year, these new sanctions which the government announced
(02:09):
on Monday, which will apply to certain benefit recipients.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
What kind of sanctions are those.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
They're called non financial sanctions, and they'refore people who have
dependent children or are in case management and they're facing
their first obligation breach, so just for certain beneficiaries, and
they include the new money management sanction. So this is
when half of a person's benefit goes onto an electronic
payment card and that money on that card can only
(02:37):
be used at approved stores to purchase essentials. And when
Minister Upstin, the Social Development Minister, announced it on Monday,
she described this management card as giving people access to
the same amount of money, but with less freedoms. She
kind of presented it as a better option than completely
removing half of someone's benefit. And there's also the second
(02:58):
new sanction coming up next year, which is the community
Work Experience section, and this will require people to find
in complete work experience at a community organization before that
sanction is lifted. And it was also said, you know
that during this time when these beneficiaries are on these
red sections, they're not actually able to access hardship persistence either,
(03:20):
which are kind of those one off payments for emergency
expenses like health or betting.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
Sanctions encourage motivation for a job seeker to get out
there and look for work. And I've heard the concerns
that people have raised with me about what it might
mean for a household where there are children. Instead of
going straight to a reduction of their benefit, where are
saying you get the same amount of benefit, just less freedoms.
(03:51):
It's about the consequence of them not fulfilling their obligations.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
What other changes are coming through.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
So there's other changes that are coming which include the
amount of time that an obligation failure stays on a
person's record. So currently that failure is marked against a
person on their record for twelve months, but Minister Epston
announced on Monday that that time period is actually going
to double and she said that this would make it
more likely that a person's benefit would be canceled if
(04:25):
they continue to not meet their obligations. Also, from next year,
job seeker recipients will need to reapply for the benefit
every six months. They will also need to create a
job seeker profile which includes details about their work experience,
their job preferences and job choices, and their qualifications before
they're granted their benefit.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
What justification did the Prime Minister and Upston give for
this decision?
Speaker 3 (04:50):
So when Minister Abston announced this new scheme, she said,
you know there are responsibilities that come with having a benefit,
and there will be no more excuses for job jobzigers
not knowing what those responsibilities are. And she touted this
traffic light system as a way of making it crystal
clear to benefit recipients as to what those responsibilities and
opplications are. She described the welfare system as always being
(05:15):
a safety net that catches people when they fall, but
had become in the past few years a drag net
that had captured too many people who can work and
allow them to, as she said, languish on job seeker support.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
Statz Enz revealing today in the March quarter, the unemployment
rate has risen from four point four percent to four
point six percent. Looking at the year to June, the
youth rate for fifteen to nineteen year olds has increased
from a touch over fifteen percent to close to twenty
one percent.
Speaker 6 (05:43):
Overall.
Speaker 5 (05:43):
Over the past year, the number of people out of
work has jumped from thirty three thousand to one hundred
and forty three thousand, and that figure includes more Mari
now jobless, the rate increasing from just over seven percent
a year ago to more than nine percent.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Is there any data to support their.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Claims that benefits are in fact a dragnet and allowed
people to languish on the job seeker benefit.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
I don't know, and I'm not sure whether the data
would support those words or those claims or not. But
what some of the data does show and reporting by
my colleague Thomas Coglin who's done that recently, shows that
the number of people on a benefit did reach a
new record in the June quarter, and with about three
one hundred and eighty one thousand people, or about eleven
(06:26):
point nine percent of the working age population receiving a benefit,
and just looking at those figures now, for that June
twenty twenty four quarter, there was about one hundred and
ninety six thousand people receiving the job Seeker Support benefit
payment as well.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
How have the opposition parties and those that support people
struggling financially responded to these changes.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
They've really come out strong. You know, the Labor Party,
the Greens and other advocacy groups have just slammed this announcement,
just saying it's going to do more harm than good
and it's not going to do the number one job
of supporting people to get back into work.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
You know.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Labor described it as benefit bashing. The Greens have said that,
you know, these are just cruel policies that are hurting
people in poverty who really need support. In groups like
Auckland Action against Poverty have said that the sanctions just
won't work and they will just add more stress to
people who are already living in really really stressful situations.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
Benefit's really hard to survive on and people's experiences punishment.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
You start talking about sanctions, you start talking about.
Speaker 5 (07:37):
Cutting half of the measly amount of people get it
sounds like bunishment.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
More than fifty percent of people on benefit have a
health condition.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Lots of people have come on to benefit because they've
just had some kind of health shock or job shock.
There's a youth development and social organization group called Kickback,
and they said these increased barriers to people accessing support
would result in more younger people sleeping on the streets
or being pushed into dangerous and vulnerable situations. And they
(08:07):
said staunchly young people do not lack the motivation, they
lack access to their basic human rights.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
So these changes are due to come into effect what
next year. We've seen reports already of people having their
benefits cut for missing meetings and things, haven't we.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
I heard this morning actually a story about someone an
accountant I believe, who had had received a letter that
their benefit was going to be cut if I recall correctly,
for missing an obligation that they were not aware they were.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Meant to do.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I think it was in a meeting or appointment and
they weren't aware of it.
Speaker 6 (08:39):
There's been no communications wherever I'm there in they just
decided to, I don't know, maybe test the waters on
a bunch of people to see if they can cut
their benefits and see what will happen.
Speaker 7 (08:49):
But I will have the.
Speaker 6 (08:51):
Courage to stand up for myself and fight. But I
know that there are a lot more vulnerable people out there,
and my concern goes out to them.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
So I did hear that report this morning. The traffic
light system is an action now, and the other changes
around those sanctions that I mentioned, and the extended time
period of failure is on a person's record and the
job seeker profiles. They come into effect next year.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
On morning report the other day, Luxon was unable to
give a bullpark figure of how much a beneficiary actually receives.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Do you know how much that is?
Speaker 7 (09:28):
No, I don't be I'm not right now, but I
just don't say to you. It's about making sure we
get people prepared for work, and we think off welfare
and into work as a much better outcome.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
So you don't know how much someone who is on
a job seeker benefit is having to live on.
Speaker 7 (09:43):
Well, I just don't want to. I'll give you a
precise number, but I don't know the precise number i'll
give it.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Could you give me a rough number?
Speaker 7 (09:49):
No, I'm not going to do that because I want
to make sure I get it.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Right for you.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
So how much are people getting?
Speaker 3 (09:58):
So the rate you get paid depends on your circumstances.
You know, do you have a partner, do you have children?
But for example, a single person without children who'd be
twenty five years or older would receive about three hundred
and fifty dollars a week under Job Seeker Net per week.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Given that it's not a particularly huge amount of money,
why is it such a priority for National? Is it
about getting people back into the paid workforce, Is it
about saving money by reducing those being supported.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
By the state, or is it just an easy win
with voters? Do you think?
Speaker 3 (10:29):
I think it's important to note that Luxon the Prime
Minister himself has noted that this will affect only around
five percent of people are missing or not meeting the obligation,
So that's around ten thousand people. But you know, the
message given appears to be stronger than that. You know,
National's ethos is to have a smaller welfare state. Reducing
welfare dependency has been something the National Party have campaigned
(10:50):
on and the Prime Minister and the State of the
Nation speech in February said you know that the free
ride for beneficiaries who were not adhering to the obligations
was over and he vowed to kind of break the
shackles of welfare dependency. And then again on Monday when
he announced this new traffic light system with the Social
Development Minister, he said there was a strong expectation that
(11:11):
those people who can work should be in work and
that fewer people on welfare was better for them themselves,
for their future, for their families, and better for the
economy and better for New Zealand. He also said, you
know that the government wanted to do so much more
for our young people and that they do everything that
they can to support them off welfare and into jobs,
and they've tarted this latest annoucement announcement as one of
(11:33):
those steps.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
It does seem to be a political kind of buzzword. Hey,
we see governments around the world saying similar things about beneficiaries,
but if we dig into the.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Numbers, it's not always as big as it seems so.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
On that last point, Julia, do you think that this
policy is going to resonate with people. We've seen huge
numbers on the Herald site for stories covering this. It
definitely seems to be getting some cut through.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Well. It'll resonate differently with different people for different reasons.
Some people may see the view of sanctioning beneficiaries as
indeed one way of incentivizing people to get into work.
But for other people who either our own benefit or
who believe the role of the state is to better
and holistically support people who need a benefit, who are
(12:18):
often in quite vulnerable positions, I think this could be
really concerning and jarring and even stressful.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Thanks for joining us, Julia.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
That said, for this episode of The Front Page, you
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzed herold.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Dot co dot z.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
The Front Page is produced by Ethan Seals with sound
engineer Patty Fox.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow
Speaker 1 (12:54):
For another look behind the headlines.
Kielda.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Presented by the New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
The government has announced new restrictions for beneficiaries. Prime Minister
Christopher Luxen and Social Development Minister Louise Upston this week
announced a new traffic light system that comes with harsher
penalties for those who don't meet their obligations to attend
meetings and.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Look for work. But what exactly do those.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Sanctions mean and why is national making this a priority now?
Today on the front Page ends at Herald, political journalist
Julia Gable joins us to explain this new traffic light system. Julia,
can you take us through the three stages of the
(00:58):
new beneficiary traffic light system?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Yes, sure, cure to chuse. So on Monday, the government
announced this new traffic light system for people on the
benefit and so beneficiaries with work obligations. So that's people
who are required by the Ministry of Social Development to
be actively looking or preparing for work are included in
this new traffic light system. So there's three colors, and
a person's color within the scheme depends on their compliance
(01:24):
with their obligations. So there's Green. Beneficiaries on Green are
complying with their obligations. There's orange, and those recipients have
received either their first or second obligation breach and they
don't have a good reason for the transgression. They then
have five working days to contact the Ministry of Social
Development to discuss their breach, and if they successfully dispute
(01:47):
that obligation failure, then that original decision is overturned and
they can go back to green. Otherwise, if they haven't
done that successfully and they don't recomply within those five
working days, they move to red. Now under red, that
is when someone is actioned. So this could include their
benefit being reduced or stopped, but it can also include
from next year, these new sanctions which the government announced
(02:09):
on Monday, which will apply to certain benefit recipients.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
What kind of sanctions are those.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
They're called non financial sanctions, and they'refore people who have
dependent children or are in case management and they're facing
their first obligation breach, so just for certain beneficiaries, and
they include the new money management sanction. So this is
when half of a person's benefit goes onto an electronic
payment card and that money on that card can only
(02:37):
be used at approved stores to purchase essentials. And when
Minister Upstin, the Social Development Minister, announced it on Monday,
she described this management card as giving people access to
the same amount of money, but with less freedoms. She
kind of presented it as a better option than completely
removing half of someone's benefit. And there's also the second
(02:58):
new sanction coming up next year, which is the community
Work Experience section, and this will require people to find
in complete work experience at a community organization before that
sanction is lifted. And it was also said, you know
that during this time when these beneficiaries are on these
red sections, they're not actually able to access hardship persistence either,
(03:20):
which are kind of those one off payments for emergency
expenses like health or betting.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
Sanctions encourage motivation for a job seeker to get out
there and look for work. And I've heard the concerns
that people have raised with me about what it might
mean for a household where there are children. Instead of
going straight to a reduction of their benefit, where are
saying you get the same amount of benefit, just less freedoms.
(03:51):
It's about the consequence of them not fulfilling their obligations.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
What other changes are coming through.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
So there's other changes that are coming which include the
amount of time that an obligation failure stays on a
person's record. So currently that failure is marked against a
person on their record for twelve months, but Minister Epston
announced on Monday that that time period is actually going
to double and she said that this would make it
more likely that a person's benefit would be canceled if
(04:25):
they continue to not meet their obligations. Also, from next year,
job seeker recipients will need to reapply for the benefit
every six months. They will also need to create a
job seeker profile which includes details about their work experience,
their job preferences and job choices, and their qualifications before
they're granted their benefit.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
What justification did the Prime Minister and Upston give for
this decision?
Speaker 3 (04:50):
So when Minister Abston announced this new scheme, she said,
you know there are responsibilities that come with having a benefit,
and there will be no more excuses for job jobzigers
not knowing what those responsibilities are. And she touted this
traffic light system as a way of making it crystal
clear to benefit recipients as to what those responsibilities and
opplications are. She described the welfare system as always being
(05:15):
a safety net that catches people when they fall, but
had become in the past few years a drag net
that had captured too many people who can work and
allow them to, as she said, languish on job seeker support.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
Statz Enz revealing today in the March quarter, the unemployment
rate has risen from four point four percent to four
point six percent. Looking at the year to June, the
youth rate for fifteen to nineteen year olds has increased
from a touch over fifteen percent to close to twenty
one percent.
Speaker 6 (05:43):
Overall.
Speaker 5 (05:43):
Over the past year, the number of people out of
work has jumped from thirty three thousand to one hundred
and forty three thousand, and that figure includes more Mari
now jobless, the rate increasing from just over seven percent
a year ago to more than nine percent.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Is there any data to support their.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Claims that benefits are in fact a dragnet and allowed
people to languish on the job seeker benefit.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
I don't know, and I'm not sure whether the data
would support those words or those claims or not. But
what some of the data does show and reporting by
my colleague Thomas Coglin who's done that recently, shows that
the number of people on a benefit did reach a
new record in the June quarter, and with about three
one hundred and eighty one thousand people, or about eleven
(06:26):
point nine percent of the working age population receiving a benefit,
and just looking at those figures now, for that June
twenty twenty four quarter, there was about one hundred and
ninety six thousand people receiving the job Seeker Support benefit
payment as well.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
How have the opposition parties and those that support people
struggling financially responded to these changes.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
They've really come out strong. You know, the Labor Party,
the Greens and other advocacy groups have just slammed this announcement,
just saying it's going to do more harm than good
and it's not going to do the number one job
of supporting people to get back into work.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
You know.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Labor described it as benefit bashing. The Greens have said that,
you know, these are just cruel policies that are hurting
people in poverty who really need support. In groups like
Auckland Action against Poverty have said that the sanctions just
won't work and they will just add more stress to
people who are already living in really really stressful situations.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
Benefit's really hard to survive on and people's experiences punishment.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
You start talking about sanctions, you start talking about.
Speaker 5 (07:37):
Cutting half of the measly amount of people get it
sounds like bunishment.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
More than fifty percent of people on benefit have a
health condition.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Lots of people have come on to benefit because they've
just had some kind of health shock or job shock.
There's a youth development and social organization group called Kickback,
and they said these increased barriers to people accessing support
would result in more younger people sleeping on the streets
or being pushed into dangerous and vulnerable situations. And they
(08:07):
said staunchly young people do not lack the motivation, they
lack access to their basic human rights.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
So these changes are due to come into effect what
next year. We've seen reports already of people having their
benefits cut for missing meetings and things, haven't we.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
I heard this morning actually a story about someone an
accountant I believe, who had had received a letter that
their benefit was going to be cut if I recall correctly,
for missing an obligation that they were not aware they were.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Meant to do.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I think it was in a meeting or appointment and
they weren't aware of it.
Speaker 6 (08:39):
There's been no communications wherever I'm there in they just
decided to, I don't know, maybe test the waters on
a bunch of people to see if they can cut
their benefits and see what will happen.
Speaker 7 (08:49):
But I will have the.
Speaker 6 (08:51):
Courage to stand up for myself and fight. But I
know that there are a lot more vulnerable people out there,
and my concern goes out to them.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
So I did hear that report this morning. The traffic
light system is an action now, and the other changes
around those sanctions that I mentioned, and the extended time
period of failure is on a person's record and the
job seeker profiles. They come into effect next year.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
On morning report the other day, Luxon was unable to
give a bullpark figure of how much a beneficiary actually receives.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Do you know how much that is?
Speaker 7 (09:28):
No, I don't be I'm not right now, but I
just don't say to you. It's about making sure we
get people prepared for work, and we think off welfare
and into work as a much better outcome.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
So you don't know how much someone who is on
a job seeker benefit is having to live on.
Speaker 7 (09:43):
Well, I just don't want to. I'll give you a
precise number, but I don't know the precise number i'll
give it.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Could you give me a rough number?
Speaker 7 (09:49):
No, I'm not going to do that because I want
to make sure I get it.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Right for you.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
So how much are people getting?
Speaker 3 (09:58):
So the rate you get paid depends on your circumstances.
You know, do you have a partner, do you have children?
But for example, a single person without children who'd be
twenty five years or older would receive about three hundred
and fifty dollars a week under Job Seeker Net per week.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Given that it's not a particularly huge amount of money,
why is it such a priority for National? Is it
about getting people back into the paid workforce, Is it
about saving money by reducing those being supported.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
By the state, or is it just an easy win
with voters? Do you think?
Speaker 3 (10:29):
I think it's important to note that Luxon the Prime
Minister himself has noted that this will affect only around
five percent of people are missing or not meeting the obligation,
So that's around ten thousand people. But you know, the
message given appears to be stronger than that. You know,
National's ethos is to have a smaller welfare state. Reducing
welfare dependency has been something the National Party have campaigned
(10:50):
on and the Prime Minister and the State of the
Nation speech in February said you know that the free
ride for beneficiaries who were not adhering to the obligations
was over and he vowed to kind of break the
shackles of welfare dependency. And then again on Monday when
he announced this new traffic light system with the Social
Development Minister, he said there was a strong expectation that
(11:11):
those people who can work should be in work and
that fewer people on welfare was better for them themselves,
for their future, for their families, and better for the
economy and better for New Zealand. He also said, you
know that the government wanted to do so much more
for our young people and that they do everything that
they can to support them off welfare and into jobs,
and they've tarted this latest annoucement announcement as one of
(11:33):
those steps.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
It does seem to be a political kind of buzzword. Hey,
we see governments around the world saying similar things about beneficiaries,
but if we dig into the.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Numbers, it's not always as big as it seems so.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
On that last point, Julia, do you think that this
policy is going to resonate with people. We've seen huge
numbers on the Herald site for stories covering this. It
definitely seems to be getting some cut through.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Well. It'll resonate differently with different people for different reasons.
Some people may see the view of sanctioning beneficiaries as
indeed one way of incentivizing people to get into work.
But for other people who either our own benefit or
who believe the role of the state is to better
and holistically support people who need a benefit, who are
(12:18):
often in quite vulnerable positions, I think this could be
really concerning and jarring and even stressful.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Thanks for joining us, Julia.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
That said, for this episode of The Front Page, you
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzed herold.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Dot co dot z.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
The Front Page is produced by Ethan Seals with sound
engineer Patty Fox.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow
Speaker 1 (12:54):
For another look behind the headlines.
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