July 25, 2024 • 19 mins
On July 26th 1984, David Lange was sworn in as the 32nd Prime Minister of New Zealand.
His ascension into the country’s top job came after Robert Muldoon’s infamous snap election ended his nine years in power.
Best remembered for enshrining New Zealand’s nuclear free status, Lange also oversaw controversial economic policies that ultimately divided his caucus, and saw his time on the ninth floor only last five years.
With this Ruby Jubilee prompting reflections on Lange’s leadership and the legacy of the fourth Labour government, today on The Front Page we’re joined by one of the few journalists who was there at the time and is still working today, Newstalk ZB senior political correspondent, Barry Soper, and Victoria University of Wellington politics professor Lara Greaves.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kiota. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,
a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. On
July twenty sixth, nineteen eighty four, David Longe was sworn
in as the thirty second Prime Minister of New Zealand.
(00:26):
His ascension into the country's top job came after Robert
Muldoon's infamous snap election ended his nine years in power.
Best remembered for enshrining New Zealand's nuclear free status, longee
also oversaw controversial economic policies that ultimately divided his caucus
and saw his time on the Ninth Flow only last
(00:48):
five years. With this Ruby Jubilee, prompting reflections on Longy's
leadership and the legacy of the Fourth Labor Government today
on the front Page, where Joe By, one of the
few journalists who was there at the time and is
still working today, Newstalk's had be senior political correspondent Barry Soaper. Barry,
(01:13):
let's start with an ending. A large part of the
myth of Muldoon is how it all ended with the
snap election. I understand you actually got a concession out
of him before the polling booths had actually even opened.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Was fascinating because that particular election campaign was for Muldoon,
one of being off a space most of the time.
And when it came to the final address in Auckland,
I said to Muldoon as he was making his way in,
can I have an interview with you? And he said yep.
I got up to his room an hour after he
(01:49):
had finished speaking, was shown in and here was this
little man slumped in a chair with a bottle of
red wine lying on its side, looking disheveled. And I
Ginia reflected with a microphone in front of him and said,
mister Muldourn, do you think you've won the election? And
Muldourn shook his head from side to side, and I
(02:10):
said to him prime and as the this is radio,
you've got to talk. Do you think you've won the election?
He said, And I couldn't believe my ears. This is
on the Thursday night before the poll, so he had
conceded defeat essentially on that night. The rest of the
media had discarded his address because it was like many
(02:32):
of the others he had given during the campaign, and
went to the pub. And by the time I got
to the pub very late, I told them that I
had a scoop and that Muldoern had conceded defeat David Longi,
and they couldn't believe it. Muldourn called a news conference
at eight o'clock the next morning, I think it was
so he soved up pretty quickly. He was on the
(02:53):
airwaves with the interview that I had with him and
denied all knowledge of it, said that he was taken
out of context, and of course he wasn't. The question
was quite simple. Have you won the election?
Speaker 1 (03:07):
He said, nap, after nine years in power where he
had never won the popular vote. Was the country just
sick of Muldoon by then?
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Oh? I think absolutely they were tired of Muldourn. And
I don't think the country appreciated economically just how bad
it was. I mean, we lived what I would say
in an ice box. Everything was frozen. Wages were frozen,
prices were frozen, interest rates were frozen. You know, something
(03:36):
had to give. You'll remember that, Rob Muldourn. He stayed
on an office for several days after the election, essentially
refusing to vacate the Prime Minister's cheer, while embassies around
the world were being asked how much cash reserves did
they have. And meanwhile you had David Longi who wanted
to call in the IMF and other world bodies who
(04:00):
essentially put New Zealand and receivership. He decided against that
on advice, fortunately, and we survived, but survived through very
difficult times in the new government.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
That doesn't give you much time to run up to
an election, prom Minister.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
Doesn't give my apparish much time to run up to
an election, does it. There is no way mister Longey
could have had enough members in the House to govern
the country. This is really what I thought about, that
he's a buffoon.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
July nineteen eighty four saw the country vote for change
in the form of David Longie. What are some of
your earliest memories of him?
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Well, I remember very early on when David Longy got
into Parliament. He used to wear this big brown suit.
He had relatively long, lank black here and he wore
these very heavy rimmed glasses. And I remember going to
a party that long he was at and he was
(05:03):
at that stage backbencher in Parliament, and he looked rather
forlorn and lonely sitting in the background, and I went
over and had a chat to him and realized that
this man was extraordinarily clever, had a great way with words,
and little did I know that not too long later
he would be the Prime Minister of Museum.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Given there was this snap election, was Labor actually prepared
to take power.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
I don't think they really had appreciated just how serious
the finances of the country were in eighty four. After
the snap election, the country really was and completely dire
strait and something had to be done. So Roger Douglas
came in, because you remember Rob Muldern sat in the
Prime Minister's office refusing to devalue the dollar, and that
(05:53):
was the big argument at the time that the dollar
needed to be devalued, it was too high, and eventually
that was the valued. But of course that opened up
all sorts of problems. For example, mortgage interest rates had
gone from the cap put on them by Rob Muldoon
of nine for the first mortgage and eleven percent for
the second as high as twenty two percent. So people
(06:17):
really that might have been struggling in nineteen eighty four,
they were in dire strait. After the Roger Douglas David
Longey government.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Came into power, what was it like after those Muldoon
years Barry, which are generally noted in the history books
as being a bit grim politically and socially. Did Longie
inherit a mess to clean up.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Of a bigger mess than I think we've ever seen, well,
certainly than I've ever seen in this country. There were
all sorts of things going on as well, because our
foreign policy Labor Party had gone into that election, the
snap election, on the anti nuclear stance, and George Schultz,
the Secretary of State for Ronald Reagan, had happened to
(07:00):
be in town in the following week and he met
with David Longe, and I think it was made known
to him quite clearly that New Zealand was going to
be anti nuclears. So the American visits of their warships
into our ports were banned, along with a number of
other things, and even propulsion was banned, even though David
(07:23):
Longe was a bit softer on that, and the suggestion
news that when he had that chat with George Schultz,
he said, give me six months and we can sort
through the idea that propelled ships would not be allowed
in port. But then that furned up with the likes
of Margaret Wilson, who later became Speaker but was the
president of the party at the time. They weren't prepared
(07:46):
to live with that. So essentially it was not just
a financial issue that the new Labor government had to
clean up. It was also the international foreign policy issue
that David Longie had to go on the I'm pulled off.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Well, when people think of Longie, they do think of
that nuclear Free New Zealand part hey in particular that
Oxford University debate. Would you agree that's probably the core
part of his legacy.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Well, I think one thing that will be remembered. Certainly
David Longiy will be remembered for that. His performance was amazing.
But it was not surprising to some of us that
knew that David Longi had such a quick wit. I mean,
here was debating Jerry Poulwall and won the debate not surprisingly.
But when one of the young Oxford University students got
(08:36):
up to challenge Longie.
Speaker 6 (08:38):
What I should like to know, sir, is why you
don't pull out of the Answers alliance for whether you
are snuggling up to the bomb or living in the
peaceful shadow of the bomb. New Zealand benefits, sir. And
that's the question with which we would like an answer, sir,
and I'm going to give it to you.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
If you hold your breath for a moment, make it
smell the uranium moment as you leave you.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
If it was a moment. I think eached in New
Zealand's history that David Longe was not just a good orator,
but a superb one. And I do remember one incident
of how Quickie was. So I remember a reporter yelling
out to David longee in his way into a caucus
meeting Prime minister. Prime minister a word, and Longe looked
(09:19):
at him and said, wombat and walked into the caucus.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
The other key bit of legislation would be the economic
reforms that came to be known as Roger nomics. Can
you briefly explain what that actually was and why it
was so controversial?
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Well, it was controversial because, like I said earlier, you know,
we saw interest rates shooting through the roof, We saw
New Zealand having to borrow the way that never borrowed before,
and the country was generally in a pretty poor state
in terms of the fact that we had been living
in an ice box and the ice had to thaw.
(09:55):
So those early years of the Longe government were really tough,
although people didn't know what they had in store for them.
They got back in in eighty seven and that's when
everything started. That's when they started the asset sales program
that was basically deshore up what were the books that
had failed, and they sold off a number of state assets.
(10:17):
And in that eighty seven period, of course, we had
the falling out very publicly with David Longe and Roger Douglas,
ending in David Longe's resignation and the succession of first
of all Jeffrey Palmer and then Mike Moore as the
Prime Minister.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
The Herald this week resurfaced an interview from our colleague
Audrey Young. She did it with Longie in two thousand
and four, just before his death. Asked about taking heat
from the left and the right of the political spectrum,
Longi responded with, this is the difficulty about talking about
it without sounding big headed. But you cannot speak of
(10:57):
New Zealand now without my involvement in what it has become.
My judgment of that is that it is change for
the better, and my instinct tells me that if it
hadn't been for our administration, there would have been calamity
after calamity. What's your response to that, Well, I think there.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Were two aspects to that comment, but certainly you can't
talk about New Zealand without thinking about David Longie and
that comes down and it's still enduring. Of course, is
the anti nuclear stance. But the other thing I think
is probably more important was the foundations that Roger Douglas
made for the economy in New Zealand. Now those foundation
(11:41):
stones have never been shifted by success of government, and
that's more than forty years on and I think that's
the most important lasting legacy, although the anti nuclear thing
probably engages more New Zealanders.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Finally, Barry, do you think David Longie was a good
prime minister.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
I think the combination of David Longee and Roger Tuglas
tackled what was a very difficult situation and it was
essential that the issues of the day were tackled in
the way they were. As a good prime minister, I
think David long was not a great leader of his
cabinet because there were faction and throughout his leadership, ending
(12:24):
with of course him standing down. And even then Longe
had a good turn of phrase. I remember him sitting
on the stage with Jeffrey Palmer and Jeffrey was singing
David Longy's praises and Longe looks at Jeffrey and said,
Jeffrey changed my mind. And of course that had everybody
(12:46):
rolling with laughter. So he had a great sense of humor.
But as a Prime minister and as a leader of
his own people in cabinet, I don't think he was
certainly anywhere near the best that I've seen my time there.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Thanks for joining us, Barry, to further discuss David Longie
and the Fourth Labor Government's legacy. We're joined now by
Victoria University of Wellington politics professor Lara Grieves and started
(13:22):
by putting that Longy quote to her as well. I
should note Lara's pet roosters make a few appearances.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I mean, twenty years have obviously gone by since that quote,
and if we were to reassess that and kind of
look at the way that different prime ministers and finance
ministers since then have positioned themselves, they've kind of copied
his lead. So thinking about Ruth Richardson and Bolger and
all of them who came after him, they've kind of
said the same sort of thing about their legacies and
(13:51):
that they also said that they were facing a financial crisis,
and Longie definitely faced a financial and constitutional crisis. I
think it's kind of a way that politicians position their
legacy because we never can really know what would have
happened if say Muldoon hadn't called the snap election, would
(14:11):
have happened to say Bill English was Prime Minister during COVID.
We can't know those sorts of things. So I think
in hindsight you can say, well, actually I saved us.
But you know, I think a lot of people will
be more critical, especially in the twenty years that have passed.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
We spoke to Newstalks at Bees Barry So but he
didn't think David Longi was a great leader of his
party or his cabinet due to some factions. Would you
agree with that.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
He's a really interesting figure, right because he was clearly charismatic.
He clearly had that presidential type quality. Most key we
seem to have a story about, like seeing him bumping
into him and being good one on one. Most people
have seen his quips, seen like his fluidity and debates
and in media interviews. So he's a liked, beloved figure.
(14:57):
But when it comes to politics, it's not just the
razzle dazzle, the baby cacussing. There's also a component of
being in government, being the prime minister, as in the
primary minister, who has to run cabinet, who has to
keep a cabinet and a party together. And I think
there are real criticisms of his leadership. From the left,
(15:18):
we see criticisms that he did let Roger Douglas kind
of go down his own ideological pathway and perhaps Longie
didn't have those people management skills. And from the right,
you know, his potentially criticizes not having that substantive policy
direction himself. I mean, I guess that's a left wing
criticism too, But there's definitely ways that you can critique
him and critique his record.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
What do you think David Longee's legacy is. Is it
just the nuclear, free energy and rogenomics?
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Well, I think that when we teach New Zealand politics,
we often pull up Michael Joseph Savage and the creation
of the welfare state. The second thing we bring up
is the fourth labor government, and rogenomics, the neo liberalism
and David Longee and we always play the uranium on
your brief that clip. We always play that, that's what
we do, that's what we fundamentally teach. There go, there's
the first year class. But the other thing that I
(16:08):
think is often overlooked as well as Longi's role in MMP,
which was more incidental than anything mistaking and then promising
a referendum, but part of that government. I mean, one
of the things that we can see today and their
legacy is that we do have the immunp system. And
I've been studying electoral reform around the world and looking
at different countries and it's really hard to get across
(16:29):
the line. So that's been I think a bit of
an incidental legacy of that government. One of the things
I have to say is someone who's written a bit
on policy history as well, is they did get some
sort of landmark policy work underway, like the Royal Commission
on Social Policy, which is this giant break of a thing,
but to me, it represents one of the most well researched,
(16:50):
most considered, most consulted on policy reports ever in our history.
So there are pieces of work like that that that
government did as well that are potentially overlooked but actually
hold up well to history when you read them.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Now, he had skills that were incredible. Really. I remember
taking a report to him one day, four pages and
he gets a report and you go, oh, that looks
all right, I wrote, and I thought you have read that.
You can't have, so I thought, I'll ask you a question,
but well, you know, I put it nicely.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Damn well, you're a bit of night you know. Do
you think we'll ever see that kind of chalk and
cheese type relationship between a prime minister and a finance
minister every gain?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Perhaps not so much because of MNP, and because like
what used to happen as Labor and National had to
be these broad churches, so they had to bring in
varied people on the left and very people on the
right to some extent, whereas now we have minor parties.
So if someone does have a different economic view, you know,
there's many options on the right. If someone has a
different economic view on the left, there's many options. They
(17:53):
can go to the Greens, they can perhaps go to Spartimadi,
depending on who they are. You know that there's other
options there for them. So it's I think I'm likely
to see that again, partially because of our electoral system
now that you have these parties are less broad tense.
We also see as well in New Zealand politics, our
political parties tend to have become a bit more I
(18:14):
guess whipped, or a bit more kind of in behind
the leader in a way, and you have a lot
less kind of independence and a lot less sort of
backbenches and people within cabinet because of you know, changes
around MP speaking out against their leader. So I would
say that we're probably not going to get that kind
of politics again unless there is some kind of other
(18:36):
substantive change there.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Do you think David Longie's enduring popularity is warranted?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I think so. I think that, you know, so much
of our politics now is about what Raymond Miller is
called the presidentialization of New Zealand politics. We have that
cultive leadership culture, personality type idea, and in this case,
David long is one of the big ones who was
a real character. He had that good kind of ability
that I think is important in New Zealand politics. You
got to take the pest out of yourself a bit,
(19:04):
you know, you had that in space. You had that charisma,
being able to connect to people one on one, and
you think that that kind of character, whether you like
the substantive policies that they put in place or didn't,
I think that celebrity part of politics. He really does
have that down and that long term likability, that long
term liked political figure.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Thanks for joining us, Lara. That said, for this episode
of the Front Page, you can read more about today's
stories and extensive news coverage at enzidherld dot co dot nz.
The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills and sound
engineer Patti Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front
(19:48):
Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and
tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.
Kiota. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,
a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. On
July twenty sixth, nineteen eighty four, David Longe was sworn
in as the thirty second Prime Minister of New Zealand.
(00:26):
His ascension into the country's top job came after Robert
Muldoon's infamous snap election ended his nine years in power.
Best remembered for enshrining New Zealand's nuclear free status, longee
also oversaw controversial economic policies that ultimately divided his caucus
and saw his time on the Ninth Flow only last
(00:48):
five years. With this Ruby Jubilee, prompting reflections on Longy's
leadership and the legacy of the Fourth Labor Government today
on the front Page, where Joe By, one of the
few journalists who was there at the time and is
still working today, Newstalk's had be senior political correspondent Barry Soaper. Barry,
(01:13):
let's start with an ending. A large part of the
myth of Muldoon is how it all ended with the
snap election. I understand you actually got a concession out
of him before the polling booths had actually even opened.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Was fascinating because that particular election campaign was for Muldoon,
one of being off a space most of the time.
And when it came to the final address in Auckland,
I said to Muldoon as he was making his way in,
can I have an interview with you? And he said yep.
I got up to his room an hour after he
(01:49):
had finished speaking, was shown in and here was this
little man slumped in a chair with a bottle of
red wine lying on its side, looking disheveled. And I
Ginia reflected with a microphone in front of him and said,
mister Muldourn, do you think you've won the election? And
Muldourn shook his head from side to side, and I
(02:10):
said to him prime and as the this is radio,
you've got to talk. Do you think you've won the election?
He said, And I couldn't believe my ears. This is
on the Thursday night before the poll, so he had
conceded defeat essentially on that night. The rest of the
media had discarded his address because it was like many
(02:32):
of the others he had given during the campaign, and
went to the pub. And by the time I got
to the pub very late, I told them that I
had a scoop and that Muldoern had conceded defeat David Longi,
and they couldn't believe it. Muldourn called a news conference
at eight o'clock the next morning, I think it was
so he soved up pretty quickly. He was on the
(02:53):
airwaves with the interview that I had with him and
denied all knowledge of it, said that he was taken
out of context, and of course he wasn't. The question
was quite simple. Have you won the election?
Speaker 1 (03:07):
He said, nap, after nine years in power where he
had never won the popular vote. Was the country just
sick of Muldoon by then?
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Oh? I think absolutely they were tired of Muldourn. And
I don't think the country appreciated economically just how bad
it was. I mean, we lived what I would say
in an ice box. Everything was frozen. Wages were frozen,
prices were frozen, interest rates were frozen. You know, something
(03:36):
had to give. You'll remember that, Rob Muldourn. He stayed
on an office for several days after the election, essentially
refusing to vacate the Prime Minister's cheer, while embassies around
the world were being asked how much cash reserves did
they have. And meanwhile you had David Longi who wanted
to call in the IMF and other world bodies who
(04:00):
essentially put New Zealand and receivership. He decided against that
on advice, fortunately, and we survived, but survived through very
difficult times in the new government.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
That doesn't give you much time to run up to
an election, prom Minister.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
Doesn't give my apparish much time to run up to
an election, does it. There is no way mister Longey
could have had enough members in the House to govern
the country. This is really what I thought about, that
he's a buffoon.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
July nineteen eighty four saw the country vote for change
in the form of David Longie. What are some of
your earliest memories of him?
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Well, I remember very early on when David Longy got
into Parliament. He used to wear this big brown suit.
He had relatively long, lank black here and he wore
these very heavy rimmed glasses. And I remember going to
a party that long he was at and he was
(05:03):
at that stage backbencher in Parliament, and he looked rather
forlorn and lonely sitting in the background, and I went
over and had a chat to him and realized that
this man was extraordinarily clever, had a great way with words,
and little did I know that not too long later
he would be the Prime Minister of Museum.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Given there was this snap election, was Labor actually prepared
to take power.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
I don't think they really had appreciated just how serious
the finances of the country were in eighty four. After
the snap election, the country really was and completely dire
strait and something had to be done. So Roger Douglas
came in, because you remember Rob Muldern sat in the
Prime Minister's office refusing to devalue the dollar, and that
(05:53):
was the big argument at the time that the dollar
needed to be devalued, it was too high, and eventually
that was the valued. But of course that opened up
all sorts of problems. For example, mortgage interest rates had
gone from the cap put on them by Rob Muldoon
of nine for the first mortgage and eleven percent for
the second as high as twenty two percent. So people
(06:17):
really that might have been struggling in nineteen eighty four,
they were in dire strait. After the Roger Douglas David
Longey government.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Came into power, what was it like after those Muldoon
years Barry, which are generally noted in the history books
as being a bit grim politically and socially. Did Longie
inherit a mess to clean up.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Of a bigger mess than I think we've ever seen, well,
certainly than I've ever seen in this country. There were
all sorts of things going on as well, because our
foreign policy Labor Party had gone into that election, the
snap election, on the anti nuclear stance, and George Schultz,
the Secretary of State for Ronald Reagan, had happened to
(07:00):
be in town in the following week and he met
with David Longe, and I think it was made known
to him quite clearly that New Zealand was going to
be anti nuclears. So the American visits of their warships
into our ports were banned, along with a number of
other things, and even propulsion was banned, even though David
(07:23):
Longe was a bit softer on that, and the suggestion
news that when he had that chat with George Schultz,
he said, give me six months and we can sort
through the idea that propelled ships would not be allowed
in port. But then that furned up with the likes
of Margaret Wilson, who later became Speaker but was the
president of the party at the time. They weren't prepared
(07:46):
to live with that. So essentially it was not just
a financial issue that the new Labor government had to
clean up. It was also the international foreign policy issue
that David Longie had to go on the I'm pulled off.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Well, when people think of Longie, they do think of
that nuclear Free New Zealand part hey in particular that
Oxford University debate. Would you agree that's probably the core
part of his legacy.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Well, I think one thing that will be remembered. Certainly
David Longiy will be remembered for that. His performance was amazing.
But it was not surprising to some of us that
knew that David Longi had such a quick wit. I mean,
here was debating Jerry Poulwall and won the debate not surprisingly.
But when one of the young Oxford University students got
(08:36):
up to challenge Longie.
Speaker 6 (08:38):
What I should like to know, sir, is why you
don't pull out of the Answers alliance for whether you
are snuggling up to the bomb or living in the
peaceful shadow of the bomb. New Zealand benefits, sir. And
that's the question with which we would like an answer, sir,
and I'm going to give it to you.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
If you hold your breath for a moment, make it
smell the uranium moment as you leave you.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
If it was a moment. I think eached in New
Zealand's history that David Longe was not just a good orator,
but a superb one. And I do remember one incident
of how Quickie was. So I remember a reporter yelling
out to David longee in his way into a caucus
meeting Prime minister. Prime minister a word, and Longe looked
(09:19):
at him and said, wombat and walked into the caucus.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
The other key bit of legislation would be the economic
reforms that came to be known as Roger nomics. Can
you briefly explain what that actually was and why it
was so controversial?
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Well, it was controversial because, like I said earlier, you know,
we saw interest rates shooting through the roof, We saw
New Zealand having to borrow the way that never borrowed before,
and the country was generally in a pretty poor state
in terms of the fact that we had been living
in an ice box and the ice had to thaw.
(09:55):
So those early years of the Longe government were really tough,
although people didn't know what they had in store for them.
They got back in in eighty seven and that's when
everything started. That's when they started the asset sales program
that was basically deshore up what were the books that
had failed, and they sold off a number of state assets.
(10:17):
And in that eighty seven period, of course, we had
the falling out very publicly with David Longe and Roger Douglas,
ending in David Longe's resignation and the succession of first
of all Jeffrey Palmer and then Mike Moore as the
Prime Minister.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
The Herald this week resurfaced an interview from our colleague
Audrey Young. She did it with Longie in two thousand
and four, just before his death. Asked about taking heat
from the left and the right of the political spectrum,
Longi responded with, this is the difficulty about talking about
it without sounding big headed. But you cannot speak of
(10:57):
New Zealand now without my involvement in what it has become.
My judgment of that is that it is change for
the better, and my instinct tells me that if it
hadn't been for our administration, there would have been calamity
after calamity. What's your response to that, Well, I think there.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Were two aspects to that comment, but certainly you can't
talk about New Zealand without thinking about David Longie and
that comes down and it's still enduring. Of course, is
the anti nuclear stance. But the other thing I think
is probably more important was the foundations that Roger Douglas
made for the economy in New Zealand. Now those foundation
(11:41):
stones have never been shifted by success of government, and
that's more than forty years on and I think that's
the most important lasting legacy, although the anti nuclear thing
probably engages more New Zealanders.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Finally, Barry, do you think David Longie was a good
prime minister.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
I think the combination of David Longee and Roger Tuglas
tackled what was a very difficult situation and it was
essential that the issues of the day were tackled in
the way they were. As a good prime minister, I
think David long was not a great leader of his
cabinet because there were faction and throughout his leadership, ending
(12:24):
with of course him standing down. And even then Longe
had a good turn of phrase. I remember him sitting
on the stage with Jeffrey Palmer and Jeffrey was singing
David Longy's praises and Longe looks at Jeffrey and said,
Jeffrey changed my mind. And of course that had everybody
(12:46):
rolling with laughter. So he had a great sense of humor.
But as a Prime minister and as a leader of
his own people in cabinet, I don't think he was
certainly anywhere near the best that I've seen my time there.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Thanks for joining us, Barry, to further discuss David Longie
and the Fourth Labor Government's legacy. We're joined now by
Victoria University of Wellington politics professor Lara Grieves and started
(13:22):
by putting that Longy quote to her as well. I
should note Lara's pet roosters make a few appearances.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I mean, twenty years have obviously gone by since that quote,
and if we were to reassess that and kind of
look at the way that different prime ministers and finance
ministers since then have positioned themselves, they've kind of copied
his lead. So thinking about Ruth Richardson and Bolger and
all of them who came after him, they've kind of
said the same sort of thing about their legacies and
(13:51):
that they also said that they were facing a financial crisis,
and Longie definitely faced a financial and constitutional crisis. I
think it's kind of a way that politicians position their
legacy because we never can really know what would have
happened if say Muldoon hadn't called the snap election, would
(14:11):
have happened to say Bill English was Prime Minister during COVID.
We can't know those sorts of things. So I think
in hindsight you can say, well, actually I saved us.
But you know, I think a lot of people will
be more critical, especially in the twenty years that have passed.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
We spoke to Newstalks at Bees Barry So but he
didn't think David Longi was a great leader of his
party or his cabinet due to some factions. Would you
agree with that.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
He's a really interesting figure, right because he was clearly charismatic.
He clearly had that presidential type quality. Most key we
seem to have a story about, like seeing him bumping
into him and being good one on one. Most people
have seen his quips, seen like his fluidity and debates
and in media interviews. So he's a liked, beloved figure.
(14:57):
But when it comes to politics, it's not just the
razzle dazzle, the baby cacussing. There's also a component of
being in government, being the prime minister, as in the
primary minister, who has to run cabinet, who has to
keep a cabinet and a party together. And I think
there are real criticisms of his leadership. From the left,
(15:18):
we see criticisms that he did let Roger Douglas kind
of go down his own ideological pathway and perhaps Longie
didn't have those people management skills. And from the right,
you know, his potentially criticizes not having that substantive policy
direction himself. I mean, I guess that's a left wing
criticism too, But there's definitely ways that you can critique
him and critique his record.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
What do you think David Longee's legacy is. Is it
just the nuclear, free energy and rogenomics?
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Well, I think that when we teach New Zealand politics,
we often pull up Michael Joseph Savage and the creation
of the welfare state. The second thing we bring up
is the fourth labor government, and rogenomics, the neo liberalism
and David Longee and we always play the uranium on
your brief that clip. We always play that, that's what
we do, that's what we fundamentally teach. There go, there's
the first year class. But the other thing that I
(16:08):
think is often overlooked as well as Longi's role in MMP,
which was more incidental than anything mistaking and then promising
a referendum, but part of that government. I mean, one
of the things that we can see today and their
legacy is that we do have the immunp system. And
I've been studying electoral reform around the world and looking
at different countries and it's really hard to get across
(16:29):
the line. So that's been I think a bit of
an incidental legacy of that government. One of the things
I have to say is someone who's written a bit
on policy history as well, is they did get some
sort of landmark policy work underway, like the Royal Commission
on Social Policy, which is this giant break of a thing,
but to me, it represents one of the most well researched,
(16:50):
most considered, most consulted on policy reports ever in our history.
So there are pieces of work like that that that
government did as well that are potentially overlooked but actually
hold up well to history when you read them.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Now, he had skills that were incredible. Really. I remember
taking a report to him one day, four pages and
he gets a report and you go, oh, that looks
all right, I wrote, and I thought you have read that.
You can't have, so I thought, I'll ask you a question,
but well, you know, I put it nicely.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Damn well, you're a bit of night you know. Do
you think we'll ever see that kind of chalk and
cheese type relationship between a prime minister and a finance
minister every gain?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Perhaps not so much because of MNP, and because like
what used to happen as Labor and National had to
be these broad churches, so they had to bring in
varied people on the left and very people on the
right to some extent, whereas now we have minor parties.
So if someone does have a different economic view, you know,
there's many options on the right. If someone has a
different economic view on the left, there's many options. They
(17:53):
can go to the Greens, they can perhaps go to Spartimadi,
depending on who they are. You know that there's other
options there for them. So it's I think I'm likely
to see that again, partially because of our electoral system
now that you have these parties are less broad tense.
We also see as well in New Zealand politics, our
political parties tend to have become a bit more I
(18:14):
guess whipped, or a bit more kind of in behind
the leader in a way, and you have a lot
less kind of independence and a lot less sort of
backbenches and people within cabinet because of you know, changes
around MP speaking out against their leader. So I would
say that we're probably not going to get that kind
of politics again unless there is some kind of other
(18:36):
substantive change there.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Do you think David Longie's enduring popularity is warranted?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I think so. I think that, you know, so much
of our politics now is about what Raymond Miller is
called the presidentialization of New Zealand politics. We have that
cultive leadership culture, personality type idea, and in this case,
David long is one of the big ones who was
a real character. He had that good kind of ability
that I think is important in New Zealand politics. You
got to take the pest out of yourself a bit,
(19:04):
you know, you had that in space. You had that charisma,
being able to connect to people one on one, and
you think that that kind of character, whether you like
the substantive policies that they put in place or didn't,
I think that celebrity part of politics. He really does
have that down and that long term likability, that long
term liked political figure.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Thanks for joining us, Lara. That said, for this episode
of the Front Page, you can read more about today's
stories and extensive news coverage at enzidherld dot co dot nz.
The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills and sound
engineer Patti Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front
(19:48):
Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and
tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.
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