July 24, 2024 • 22 mins
Aotearoa’s complicated history of land sales is the focus of a new series from the New Zealand Herald.
Whenua: Our Land, Our History, is an interactive map showing how Māori land passed into Pākehā ownership and the stories surrounding it.
It confronts questions some of us prefer not to ask because they raise uncomfortable issues about Aotearoa’s colonial legacy, and how those impacts are still being felt today.
On The Front Page today, we get the story of Ngāti Whātua Ōrākei with their Trust’s deputy chair, Ngarimu Blair, and discuss the decision to make this series with Chief Content Officer for the Herald and NZME, Murray Kirkness.
To read more about how these land sales impacted all iwi around Aotearoa, and the stories by NZ Herald journalists, head to nzherald.co.nz.
Whenua is a New Zealand Herald data-led project, supported by NZ On Air, in association with Māori land legal expert Adrienne Paul.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Sound Engineer: Paddy Fox
Producer: Ethan Sills
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kilda.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Altierowa's complicated
history of land sales is the focus of a new
series from the New Zealand Herald. Fenowa Our Land a
(00:26):
History is an interactive map showing how Mauldi Land passed
into Pakihart ownership and the stories surrounding it. It confronts
questions some of us prefer not to ask because they
raise uncomfortable issues about Altieroa's colonial legacy and how those
impacts are still being felt today. Later we'll discuss the
(00:50):
decision to make this series with Chief Content Officer for
the Herald and ends at me Murray Kirkness. But first
on the front Page we get to the story of
Yati Batua Urake with their trust's deputy, chech Nari Mubled.
Let's start in the early eighteen hundreds. Can you give
(01:13):
us an idea of how much land was owned or
controlled by Nyati fatua Uraki prior to the Treaty of
White Hungi being signed?
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (01:22):
So?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Our people, more correctly, are made up of three subtribes,
the Tatou people, the Najor people and the Turning Nutu people,
and between those three subtribes and the various chiefs and leaders,
we had a network of major kainga or village complexes
(01:43):
on both the northern shores of the Monoco Harbor and
the Waa Mata and the White Mata. When we speak
of that, we're talking between MoMA Uika which is north
Head on the north shore in Takapartafo, boy Kelli, Tultan's
on Tamiki Drive and all parts northwest of that. So
we hit our network of major living complexes where all
(02:08):
of those three subtribes would be based during the winter months,
so about now. One of those was at Onni Hunger
and mangade A Mangoda Bridge there he could walk across
at low tide in those days not so much mud,
and on the Waitamata all around Hodson Bay, which we
call Waitatamah in Okahu Bay. So that's where all the
(02:30):
people were living during the colder winter months. But in
the summer months from spring onwards really right through to
kind of April early May, all of the various leaders
of each of the families and clans would be heading
out all along those coastlines. Of the northern monuco from
(02:51):
Mangade over to Afi to cross to Kadanga Hape which
is Cornwallace, out to Fatipu and Huya on the west
coast and then all up the way to Mata Harbor.
In those months have just spent fishing and processing fish,
mainly smoking them and also collecting seafood cockles to a
(03:13):
tour pippy smoking them, preserving them and also going into
the naheeded the bush. There's lots of bush then all
through our region not so much now getting all of
the birds and preserving them in their fats. And they
would have done that out on these satellite fishing villages
dotted across those coastlines, so we have names left to us.
(03:36):
Way Paper which is in the eastern end of the
CBD bottom of Stanley Street is a fishing village au
or too at bottom of Queen Street, Fort Street now
and over at Tetoor which is at Victoria Park and
today who at the back of the zoo. So that
all of these villagers teeming with people working industriously out
(03:56):
harvesting all of those natural resources through the warmer month
and then when winter comes around moving back to those
base camps at way to the more Hobson Bay and
over on the Monuco at Orni Hunger and Mangadere. So
that really was the extent of the land in our
tribal area of those people. Today we called the Nati
(04:18):
Pa to Ki, but that's really a reflection of you know,
we lost control of all of that area that I
just described. With the fishing circuits and the hunting circuits
for birds, we were whittled away down to one quarter
of an acre, which was all we had left at Kae,
which yeah, it was our name today, but I don't
really like that name because it really highlights that we
(04:41):
were actually the masters of the holessness and not just
the ford of an acre land that we had left
at dark. But acreage was maybe around eighty thousand acres,
which isn't that big, probably a small farm or station
in South Island.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
W oh Yea.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Hits You Hiraki hits You Hiraki.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
Nah Naya my Tea it Chiku Dekotu Kuya Deo Cairo
Kau katsu Yu.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
He Well, it was around eighteen forty when the Ewe
made their first sale. Three thousand hectares were sold for
fifty pounds in coins and goods amounting to around two
hundred and fifteen pounds, which is twenty six thousand dollars
in today's money. That's the land we were describing, hey,
(05:44):
between Hobson Bay, Cox Bay and Mount Eden. What was
the ewei's understandings of this sale.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Yeah, we didn't have a word for sale. The only
way you lost your manna, your authority and land forever
endeavor was by traditional warfare. And traditional warfare you didn't
really want to get into too much unless you had
expansion plans, of course, and we didn't experience that here
(06:14):
in Auckland with the settlers. There was no war here,
and therefore our view of that transaction was just that
a transaction. Our experience and our custom for well I
guess five millennia through the Pacific and ultimately an altered
or in the South Pacific was to exchange land rights
(06:39):
and use rights with partners and parties external to you
who you wanted to either maintain a relationship with or
start a relationship with. And we had done that with
our eastern border neighbors and anti power in the seventeen hundreds.
We wanted to start a relationship with them, so we
had a good ally on our eastern border, one to
(07:01):
avoid conflict, but also to have an ally in times
of need. So land around Pamuir was given to them
with the expectation that the underlying manna and title and
authority stayed with the givers of the land, and that
was us. So that was our custom, and there was
certainly what was in our chief's minds. At eighteen forty.
(07:22):
We had very little experience with Europeans. They were all
based in the Bay of Islands in the South Island,
hunting whales and seals and the light. We did have
one visit from Samuel Marsden, Reverend Samuel Marsden in eighteen twenty.
He had a look around. We tried our best to
(07:45):
keep him here, but he ultimately left. So, yeah, we
didn't have paker around here, a lot of them, so
we didn't know what a cash economy was, and we
certainly didn't know what you know, if he gave someone
a use rights to something, that bit of paper with
some ink on it written in Pakiha meant that you
lost your authority and monere in it forever. So the
(08:07):
first three thousand acres, the transaction We certainly don't call
it a sale. We call it a takura or a
taku fenoma, which is the traditional giving of land for
someone to use whilst you were in a mutually beneficial relationship.
And that was in our minds. We wanted pakiha here,
and we wanted to trade, and we wanted to buy
(08:29):
their good stuff, and in the early days we turned
down their bad stuff like whiskey and beer. They would
provide a market for us, and they would get to
use the land unmolested and free to use as long
as they wanted it. And that was certainly the early understanding,
and obviously as time went on, our understanding of European
(08:53):
thoughts of land tenure and ownership were quite different. By
the close of the eighteen fifty we were definitely selling
land by then with a greater understanding that we needed
to get a good price because in the parker her eyes,
it was their land forever and ever to do with
whatever they so choose and wishful.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I think some people reading this series or listening to
this podcast will ask if the EWE knew or got
the understanding of what those sales really meant. That the
settlers were going to go on to sell that land
to someone else. Why do you think that EWE kept
engaging in these kind of deals. Was it a real
(09:45):
effort to try and understand and live as one?
Speaker 3 (09:48):
I guess well, we were implementing our own survival strategy.
Someone armed the northern tribes to the teeth with a
huge arsenal of muskets and guns, gained in Sydney, but
funded somehow through England. So we were ravaged by wars
in the eighteen twenties and early eighteen thirties. War swept
(10:10):
up from the south as well, every now and then
again with the introduction of muskets, which had been around
for a few generations but at that period really took
on a life of its own. So the whole island
was in a state of calamity really just before the
treaty was signed, and I guess when the Empire decided
(10:31):
to officially annex the country. Noting also before the treaty
there were a lot of entrepreneurs coming out of Europe
down here looking to make their fortunes in the entipities.
And so yeah, really it was a very unsettled period.
We're looking for new allies, old allies and Martydom had
become less so given the musket wars that had just happened,
(10:56):
And so we were definitely an ew that sought a
new future and one with a new great power to
British Empire, the greatest empire the earth is known, really,
and how best could we engage with it to ensure
our survival And part of that was to treat with
them as much as we could as equals and to
open up our lands for European settlement. Who knows what
(11:19):
our ancestors were thinking, but perhaps they saw the riding
on the wall that if we didn't engage the way
we did, perhaps we'd be wiped off the face of
the planet, as I'm sure they were hearing by then
stories of other indigenous peoples across the world suffering that
kind of fate. So yeah, glass half full. We wanted
to make people feel welcome, of course, but we wanted
(11:40):
to trade. We can see that our chiefs of that
era being very proactive in terms of trading, trying to
drive an income that they could then plow back into
the future of their people. Noting that these ships kept
arriving and people kept pouring off them and moving into
the lands that we had given, gifted, transacted and and
later sold some of the blocks.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
If you had to put a figure on it, how
much do you think the land sold in the nineteenth
century is worth today?
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Well, I actually did a calculation recently. The first transaction
in September eighteen forty. The boundaries we actually agreed on
went from Cox's Bay to Saint George's Bay. Now that's
all po to Kicker to Matajade Judde St George's Bay
along where the Staratzi's building is, and both of those
points into mona Pho Mount Eden the summit. That's three
(12:29):
thousand acres. However, when the deed was finally drafted up
nearly a year later, the officials of the crown had
said that Matahudi Hudder was further east over at the
bottom of air Street and New Market, and with the
stroke of a pen we lost five hundred acres through
that clerical era, it would be the nice way to
(12:50):
put it, so that five hundred acres three thousand and
four thousand dollars a square meter. Today my rudimentary calculator
on my phone, it only came up with letters, so
it must be a big number.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So that was what twenty six thousand dollars today. I mean,
it's just astronomical how much it would cost today.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Yeah, and so you know it's a big number. We
all know, everyone knows it, but we won't dwell on it,
otherwise we might cry too much. Well, Bestian Point was
sleeping this morning. The police were on the move.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
And by this time next week they'll be off Bastian Point.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
I promise you that that.
Speaker 5 (13:24):
Rob Muldoon, who was Prime Minister at the time, had
plans to develop the Fenua for the purpose of housing
the wealthy, had nothing to do with housing mighty people.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Nazi fast through it.
Speaker 6 (13:34):
The aim was to maintain the last peas of land
in Naeti fat for the people of Auraki. It led
to the tribunal, It led to the treaty settlement claims process.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Nati Phatua Uraki has turned their fortunes around in recent decades. Right,
I believe the EWE had around one point six billion
dollars in assets as of twenty twenty two. How do
you feel about this reversal of four watunes in the
context of what has actually happened to your eat Wee
in the past.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Feels like the strategy employed seven generations ago, which was
to survive as best we could, knowing the onslaught about
to come, to make the best of it that we could.
That there will be a lot of suffering and pain,
and there certainly has been that. And by that I
mean we lost every single acre of our land. We
became squatters on our own land. Technically and legally, we
(14:28):
lost all of our native forests in central Isthmus. We
lost almost all of our shellfish grounds through reclamation and
the European propensity to discharge their raw surage into the sea.
We became paupers in our own land where once we
(14:48):
were the princes and the kings and queens. And so
only now it feels like the strategy to survive and
then be around to turn that story around is just
beginning with far well short of what we need to
reinvest back into our people in terms of housing, education,
cultural recovery of our language, stories, genealogies, and the luck.
(15:14):
So feel very humble to be in a position I
am and lucky to not have suffered the worst of it,
but with a lot of weight on our shoulders, myself
and my cousins to make sure we don't stuff it
up and that we keep building and that we as
rapidly as possible turn the fortunes around of each individual
(15:34):
member who can claim to being Antifa to a key
timaking Artifa to of Auckland.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
There's a lot to the story of your eway and
people can read that full story from you at ens
at Herald dot co dot nz. But what would you
want people to take away from this, particularly those who
politically may not care or be interested in these kinds
of issues.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Strong Antifa to it is needed for our city and
for our country. Every person that we can reignite the fire,
relight the fire in them that is flickering away in
terms of who they are deep down as anti fat
to a Ketarmaki citizen. If we can get that flicker
(16:14):
of a flame going around their culture and identity, their
contribution to something bigger than themselves, whether that be with
our Hapu, our subtribes, or in their own communities, whether
at a rugby club, netball club, or bridge club or
whatever it is, can only be a great thing for
our country and mean spirited people who think that we
(16:34):
are somehow out there being greedy Mary's seeking things we
don't deserve, well, they simply need to read a basic
history of New Zealand to understand what our people have
been through and how humble we are and actually asking
for reparations of such a minor number in terms of
(16:54):
what has been across our economy on all sorts of
crazy hairbrain schemes by our governments and local governments. I mean,
we've managed to turn an eighteen million dollar cash settlement
for everything we lost. So it's eighteen million cash into
as you say, to a one point seven near one
point seven billion dollar estate today. And what do we
(17:16):
do with our money? We pour it all back into
our people. Where the health system fails, where the education
system fails, where the housing market fails. We are pouring
our money back into trying to plug those gaps. We're
not pouring it into our batches and second, third or
fourth homes in Fiji or south of France. Our money
(17:37):
is going back into our people. And I don't know
anyone with some common sense who would think that that's
a terrible thing.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Thanks for joining us Natimo. The release of Benawa this
week has been a long time coming for The Herald
to discuss the editorial thinking behind the series and the
sensitive nature of the topic. We're joined now by Chief
(18:07):
Content Officer for The Herald and enz ADM Murray Kirkness. Murray,
what was the thinking behind doing this series originally at all?
Speaker 5 (18:17):
I think it's evolved over time, Chelsea. You know, it's
been in the making for quite a long time and
we've had an awful lot of help in doing so.
I guess though from our perspective, we're trying to provide
answers to some questions that some New Zealanders would probably
prefer we not even ask. You know, they do raise
some uncomfortable issues about our legacy, the country's legacy and
(18:38):
at the moment topics discussions. Opinions on treaty principles, for instance,
are obviously front and center for a great many people,
and it's an area that can be easily inflamed. It's
a place where there are strongly held opinion. From our
point of view, we're just trying to present the facts
of New Zealand's history. We would argue that, you know,
(19:00):
to face what's ahead, we have to know our past,
and so that's the reason for this project.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
The main body of the New Zealand Wars took place
between eighteen forty three and eighteen seventy two. My generation
didn't learn much about them at school. What we did
learn was a sanitized version supporting New Zealand's reputation as
a paradise of racial harmony.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Because they're not really trying to be provocative at all,
but just laying out the facts, speaking to those involved
in experts and the audience can come to any conclusions
that they come to.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
Yeah, that's correct. As it says in the piece published today,
we hope the project will provide useful context for the
current political and social debates that we see going in.
We hope it can fill in some knowledge gaps for
some New Zealanders. We'd also hope it will spark a
few much needed conversations. Ideally they would be conversations though,
rather than rhetoric and yelling. Quite frankly, I think we
(19:52):
do suffer a little bit from the inflammatory nature of
the way topics like this are discussed. It's a very
easy subject to throw around labels like racists or colonial
or you know, and they often very charged terms. But
the reality is I think that you know, there's a
great many New Zealanders who don't necessarily know the country's
own past. It's not necessarily taught in our schools, and
(20:15):
we're hoping that Fenowa will help redress some of that balance.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Is there a concern about how the audience will respond
to this series?
Speaker 5 (20:24):
I did about concerns. I think it has got the potential.
We all know that often a person's own worldview will
influence the way they react to any piece of journalism
or information. But we hope that most thinking people will
see it for what it actually is, which is a
fairly straightforward, but nevertheless in depth examination of our land,
(20:47):
our past, what happened in our history. As I said,
it's not taking a view on that, it's not taking
any political side, or it is literally saying this is
what happened. It's a nice piece from Simon Wilson as
part of this package, in which he quotes historian Michael
King in his book The Penguin History of New Zealand,
who wrote, most New Zealanders, whatever their cultural backgrounds, are
(21:08):
good hearted, practical, common sensical, and tolerant. I'd like to
think that's still the case, despite the fact that we
know on occasion we can be.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Quick to judge.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Thanks for joining us, Murray and to read more about
how these land sales impacted all eWeek around alti Adowa
and the stories by ENZED Herald journalists including Julia Gable
and Chris Knox. Head to enzet Herold dot co dot zed.
Fenwa is a New Zealand Herald data led project supported
by ENZED on air in association with Mauldi Land legal
(21:40):
expert Adrian Paul. That said, for this episode of the
Front Page, you can read more about today's stories and
extensive news coverage at enzet herold dot co dot zed.
The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sells with sound
engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front
(22:02):
Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and
tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
Kilda.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Altierowa's complicated
history of land sales is the focus of a new
series from the New Zealand Herald. Fenowa Our Land a
(00:26):
History is an interactive map showing how Mauldi Land passed
into Pakihart ownership and the stories surrounding it. It confronts
questions some of us prefer not to ask because they
raise uncomfortable issues about Altieroa's colonial legacy and how those
impacts are still being felt today. Later we'll discuss the
(00:50):
decision to make this series with Chief Content Officer for
the Herald and ends at me Murray Kirkness. But first
on the front Page we get to the story of
Yati Batua Urake with their trust's deputy, chech Nari Mubled.
Let's start in the early eighteen hundreds. Can you give
(01:13):
us an idea of how much land was owned or
controlled by Nyati fatua Uraki prior to the Treaty of
White Hungi being signed?
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (01:22):
So?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Our people, more correctly, are made up of three subtribes,
the Tatou people, the Najor people and the Turning Nutu people,
and between those three subtribes and the various chiefs and leaders,
we had a network of major kainga or village complexes
(01:43):
on both the northern shores of the Monoco Harbor and
the Waa Mata and the White Mata. When we speak
of that, we're talking between MoMA Uika which is north
Head on the north shore in Takapartafo, boy Kelli, Tultan's
on Tamiki Drive and all parts northwest of that. So
we hit our network of major living complexes where all
(02:08):
of those three subtribes would be based during the winter months,
so about now. One of those was at Onni Hunger
and mangade A Mangoda Bridge there he could walk across
at low tide in those days not so much mud,
and on the Waitamata all around Hodson Bay, which we
call Waitatamah in Okahu Bay. So that's where all the
(02:30):
people were living during the colder winter months. But in
the summer months from spring onwards really right through to
kind of April early May, all of the various leaders
of each of the families and clans would be heading
out all along those coastlines. Of the northern monuco from
(02:51):
Mangade over to Afi to cross to Kadanga Hape which
is Cornwallace, out to Fatipu and Huya on the west
coast and then all up the way to Mata Harbor.
In those months have just spent fishing and processing fish,
mainly smoking them and also collecting seafood cockles to a
(03:13):
tour pippy smoking them, preserving them and also going into
the naheeded the bush. There's lots of bush then all
through our region not so much now getting all of
the birds and preserving them in their fats. And they
would have done that out on these satellite fishing villages
dotted across those coastlines, so we have names left to us.
(03:36):
Way Paper which is in the eastern end of the
CBD bottom of Stanley Street is a fishing village au
or too at bottom of Queen Street, Fort Street now
and over at Tetoor which is at Victoria Park and
today who at the back of the zoo. So that
all of these villagers teeming with people working industriously out
(03:56):
harvesting all of those natural resources through the warmer month
and then when winter comes around moving back to those
base camps at way to the more Hobson Bay and
over on the Monuco at Orni Hunger and Mangadere. So
that really was the extent of the land in our
tribal area of those people. Today we called the Nati
(04:18):
Pa to Ki, but that's really a reflection of you know,
we lost control of all of that area that I
just described. With the fishing circuits and the hunting circuits
for birds, we were whittled away down to one quarter
of an acre, which was all we had left at Kae,
which yeah, it was our name today, but I don't
really like that name because it really highlights that we
(04:41):
were actually the masters of the holessness and not just
the ford of an acre land that we had left
at dark. But acreage was maybe around eighty thousand acres,
which isn't that big, probably a small farm or station
in South Island.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
W oh Yea.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Hits You Hiraki hits You Hiraki.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
Nah Naya my Tea it Chiku Dekotu Kuya Deo Cairo
Kau katsu Yu.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
He Well, it was around eighteen forty when the Ewe
made their first sale. Three thousand hectares were sold for
fifty pounds in coins and goods amounting to around two
hundred and fifteen pounds, which is twenty six thousand dollars
in today's money. That's the land we were describing, hey,
(05:44):
between Hobson Bay, Cox Bay and Mount Eden. What was
the ewei's understandings of this sale.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Yeah, we didn't have a word for sale. The only
way you lost your manna, your authority and land forever
endeavor was by traditional warfare. And traditional warfare you didn't
really want to get into too much unless you had
expansion plans, of course, and we didn't experience that here
(06:14):
in Auckland with the settlers. There was no war here,
and therefore our view of that transaction was just that
a transaction. Our experience and our custom for well I
guess five millennia through the Pacific and ultimately an altered
or in the South Pacific was to exchange land rights
(06:39):
and use rights with partners and parties external to you
who you wanted to either maintain a relationship with or
start a relationship with. And we had done that with
our eastern border neighbors and anti power in the seventeen hundreds.
We wanted to start a relationship with them, so we
had a good ally on our eastern border, one to
(07:01):
avoid conflict, but also to have an ally in times
of need. So land around Pamuir was given to them
with the expectation that the underlying manna and title and
authority stayed with the givers of the land, and that
was us. So that was our custom, and there was
certainly what was in our chief's minds. At eighteen forty.
(07:22):
We had very little experience with Europeans. They were all
based in the Bay of Islands in the South Island,
hunting whales and seals and the light. We did have
one visit from Samuel Marsden, Reverend Samuel Marsden in eighteen twenty.
He had a look around. We tried our best to
(07:45):
keep him here, but he ultimately left. So, yeah, we
didn't have paker around here, a lot of them, so
we didn't know what a cash economy was, and we
certainly didn't know what you know, if he gave someone
a use rights to something, that bit of paper with
some ink on it written in Pakiha meant that you
lost your authority and monere in it forever. So the
(08:07):
first three thousand acres, the transaction We certainly don't call
it a sale. We call it a takura or a
taku fenoma, which is the traditional giving of land for
someone to use whilst you were in a mutually beneficial relationship.
And that was in our minds. We wanted pakiha here,
and we wanted to trade, and we wanted to buy
(08:29):
their good stuff, and in the early days we turned
down their bad stuff like whiskey and beer. They would
provide a market for us, and they would get to
use the land unmolested and free to use as long
as they wanted it. And that was certainly the early understanding,
and obviously as time went on, our understanding of European
(08:53):
thoughts of land tenure and ownership were quite different. By
the close of the eighteen fifty we were definitely selling
land by then with a greater understanding that we needed
to get a good price because in the parker her eyes,
it was their land forever and ever to do with
whatever they so choose and wishful.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I think some people reading this series or listening to
this podcast will ask if the EWE knew or got
the understanding of what those sales really meant. That the
settlers were going to go on to sell that land
to someone else. Why do you think that EWE kept
engaging in these kind of deals. Was it a real
(09:45):
effort to try and understand and live as one?
Speaker 3 (09:48):
I guess well, we were implementing our own survival strategy.
Someone armed the northern tribes to the teeth with a
huge arsenal of muskets and guns, gained in Sydney, but
funded somehow through England. So we were ravaged by wars
in the eighteen twenties and early eighteen thirties. War swept
(10:10):
up from the south as well, every now and then
again with the introduction of muskets, which had been around
for a few generations but at that period really took
on a life of its own. So the whole island
was in a state of calamity really just before the
treaty was signed, and I guess when the Empire decided
(10:31):
to officially annex the country. Noting also before the treaty
there were a lot of entrepreneurs coming out of Europe
down here looking to make their fortunes in the entipities.
And so yeah, really it was a very unsettled period.
We're looking for new allies, old allies and Martydom had
become less so given the musket wars that had just happened,
(10:56):
And so we were definitely an ew that sought a
new future and one with a new great power to
British Empire, the greatest empire the earth is known, really,
and how best could we engage with it to ensure
our survival And part of that was to treat with
them as much as we could as equals and to
open up our lands for European settlement. Who knows what
(11:19):
our ancestors were thinking, but perhaps they saw the riding
on the wall that if we didn't engage the way
we did, perhaps we'd be wiped off the face of
the planet, as I'm sure they were hearing by then
stories of other indigenous peoples across the world suffering that
kind of fate. So yeah, glass half full. We wanted
to make people feel welcome, of course, but we wanted
(11:40):
to trade. We can see that our chiefs of that
era being very proactive in terms of trading, trying to
drive an income that they could then plow back into
the future of their people. Noting that these ships kept
arriving and people kept pouring off them and moving into
the lands that we had given, gifted, transacted and and
later sold some of the blocks.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
If you had to put a figure on it, how
much do you think the land sold in the nineteenth
century is worth today?
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Well, I actually did a calculation recently. The first transaction
in September eighteen forty. The boundaries we actually agreed on
went from Cox's Bay to Saint George's Bay. Now that's
all po to Kicker to Matajade Judde St George's Bay
along where the Staratzi's building is, and both of those
points into mona Pho Mount Eden the summit. That's three
(12:29):
thousand acres. However, when the deed was finally drafted up
nearly a year later, the officials of the crown had
said that Matahudi Hudder was further east over at the
bottom of air Street and New Market, and with the
stroke of a pen we lost five hundred acres through
that clerical era, it would be the nice way to
(12:50):
put it, so that five hundred acres three thousand and
four thousand dollars a square meter. Today my rudimentary calculator
on my phone, it only came up with letters, so
it must be a big number.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So that was what twenty six thousand dollars today. I mean,
it's just astronomical how much it would cost today.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Yeah, and so you know it's a big number. We
all know, everyone knows it, but we won't dwell on it,
otherwise we might cry too much. Well, Bestian Point was
sleeping this morning. The police were on the move.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
And by this time next week they'll be off Bastian Point.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
I promise you that that.
Speaker 5 (13:24):
Rob Muldoon, who was Prime Minister at the time, had
plans to develop the Fenua for the purpose of housing
the wealthy, had nothing to do with housing mighty people.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Nazi fast through it.
Speaker 6 (13:34):
The aim was to maintain the last peas of land
in Naeti fat for the people of Auraki. It led
to the tribunal, It led to the treaty settlement claims process.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Nati Phatua Uraki has turned their fortunes around in recent decades. Right,
I believe the EWE had around one point six billion
dollars in assets as of twenty twenty two. How do
you feel about this reversal of four watunes in the
context of what has actually happened to your eat Wee
in the past.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Feels like the strategy employed seven generations ago, which was
to survive as best we could, knowing the onslaught about
to come, to make the best of it that we could.
That there will be a lot of suffering and pain,
and there certainly has been that. And by that I
mean we lost every single acre of our land. We
became squatters on our own land. Technically and legally, we
(14:28):
lost all of our native forests in central Isthmus. We
lost almost all of our shellfish grounds through reclamation and
the European propensity to discharge their raw surage into the sea.
We became paupers in our own land where once we
(14:48):
were the princes and the kings and queens. And so
only now it feels like the strategy to survive and
then be around to turn that story around is just
beginning with far well short of what we need to
reinvest back into our people in terms of housing, education,
cultural recovery of our language, stories, genealogies, and the luck.
(15:14):
So feel very humble to be in a position I
am and lucky to not have suffered the worst of it,
but with a lot of weight on our shoulders, myself
and my cousins to make sure we don't stuff it
up and that we keep building and that we as
rapidly as possible turn the fortunes around of each individual
(15:34):
member who can claim to being Antifa to a key
timaking Artifa to of Auckland.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
There's a lot to the story of your eway and
people can read that full story from you at ens
at Herald dot co dot nz. But what would you
want people to take away from this, particularly those who
politically may not care or be interested in these kinds
of issues.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
Strong Antifa to it is needed for our city and
for our country. Every person that we can reignite the fire,
relight the fire in them that is flickering away in
terms of who they are deep down as anti fat
to a Ketarmaki citizen. If we can get that flicker
(16:14):
of a flame going around their culture and identity, their
contribution to something bigger than themselves, whether that be with
our Hapu, our subtribes, or in their own communities, whether
at a rugby club, netball club, or bridge club or
whatever it is, can only be a great thing for
our country and mean spirited people who think that we
(16:34):
are somehow out there being greedy Mary's seeking things we
don't deserve, well, they simply need to read a basic
history of New Zealand to understand what our people have
been through and how humble we are and actually asking
for reparations of such a minor number in terms of
(16:54):
what has been across our economy on all sorts of
crazy hairbrain schemes by our governments and local governments. I mean,
we've managed to turn an eighteen million dollar cash settlement
for everything we lost. So it's eighteen million cash into
as you say, to a one point seven near one
point seven billion dollar estate today. And what do we
(17:16):
do with our money? We pour it all back into
our people. Where the health system fails, where the education
system fails, where the housing market fails. We are pouring
our money back into trying to plug those gaps. We're
not pouring it into our batches and second, third or
fourth homes in Fiji or south of France. Our money
(17:37):
is going back into our people. And I don't know
anyone with some common sense who would think that that's
a terrible thing.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Thanks for joining us Natimo. The release of Benawa this
week has been a long time coming for The Herald
to discuss the editorial thinking behind the series and the
sensitive nature of the topic. We're joined now by Chief
(18:07):
Content Officer for The Herald and enz ADM Murray Kirkness. Murray,
what was the thinking behind doing this series originally at all?
Speaker 5 (18:17):
I think it's evolved over time, Chelsea. You know, it's
been in the making for quite a long time and
we've had an awful lot of help in doing so.
I guess though from our perspective, we're trying to provide
answers to some questions that some New Zealanders would probably
prefer we not even ask. You know, they do raise
some uncomfortable issues about our legacy, the country's legacy and
(18:38):
at the moment topics discussions. Opinions on treaty principles, for instance,
are obviously front and center for a great many people,
and it's an area that can be easily inflamed. It's
a place where there are strongly held opinion. From our
point of view, we're just trying to present the facts
of New Zealand's history. We would argue that, you know,
(19:00):
to face what's ahead, we have to know our past,
and so that's the reason for this project.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
The main body of the New Zealand Wars took place
between eighteen forty three and eighteen seventy two. My generation
didn't learn much about them at school. What we did
learn was a sanitized version supporting New Zealand's reputation as
a paradise of racial harmony.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Because they're not really trying to be provocative at all,
but just laying out the facts, speaking to those involved
in experts and the audience can come to any conclusions
that they come to.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
Yeah, that's correct. As it says in the piece published today,
we hope the project will provide useful context for the
current political and social debates that we see going in.
We hope it can fill in some knowledge gaps for
some New Zealanders. We'd also hope it will spark a
few much needed conversations. Ideally they would be conversations though,
rather than rhetoric and yelling. Quite frankly, I think we
(19:52):
do suffer a little bit from the inflammatory nature of
the way topics like this are discussed. It's a very
easy subject to throw around labels like racists or colonial
or you know, and they often very charged terms. But
the reality is I think that you know, there's a
great many New Zealanders who don't necessarily know the country's
own past. It's not necessarily taught in our schools, and
(20:15):
we're hoping that Fenowa will help redress some of that balance.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Is there a concern about how the audience will respond
to this series?
Speaker 5 (20:24):
I did about concerns. I think it has got the potential.
We all know that often a person's own worldview will
influence the way they react to any piece of journalism
or information. But we hope that most thinking people will
see it for what it actually is, which is a
fairly straightforward, but nevertheless in depth examination of our land,
(20:47):
our past, what happened in our history. As I said,
it's not taking a view on that, it's not taking
any political side, or it is literally saying this is
what happened. It's a nice piece from Simon Wilson as
part of this package, in which he quotes historian Michael
King in his book The Penguin History of New Zealand,
who wrote, most New Zealanders, whatever their cultural backgrounds, are
(21:08):
good hearted, practical, common sensical, and tolerant. I'd like to
think that's still the case, despite the fact that we
know on occasion we can be.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Quick to judge.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Thanks for joining us, Murray and to read more about
how these land sales impacted all eWeek around alti Adowa
and the stories by ENZED Herald journalists including Julia Gable
and Chris Knox. Head to enzet Herold dot co dot zed.
Fenwa is a New Zealand Herald data led project supported
by ENZED on air in association with Mauldi Land legal
(21:40):
expert Adrian Paul. That said, for this episode of the
Front Page, you can read more about today's stories and
extensive news coverage at enzet herold dot co dot zed.
The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sells with sound
engineer Patty Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front
(22:02):
Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and
tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
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