July 24, 2025 • 19 mins
The National Certificate of Educational Achievement – or NCEA – has been New Zealand’s main secondary school qualification for more than 20 years now.
But, its future could be on the line, as more top schools plan to offer alternatives – and a Government briefing raised concerns about its credibility.
So is NCEA really as bad as it’s been out made out to be, and what would be the benefit of switching your kid over to one of the other options out there?
Today on The Front Page, Dr Nina Hood from the Education Hub is with us to discuss the future of high schooling in NZ.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Editor/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Ethan Sills
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kiota.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The National
Certificate of Educational Achievement or NCEA, has been New Zealand's
main secondary school qualification for more than twenty years now,
(00:27):
but its future could be on the line as more
top schools plan to offer alternatives and a government briefing
raised concerns about its credibility.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
So is NCEA really as bad as.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
It's made out to be? And what would be the
benefit of switching your kid over to another option?
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Out there?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Today?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
On the front Page, Doctor Nina Hood from the Education
Hub is with us to discuss the future of high
schooling in New Zealand. Nina.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
In the last few.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Weeks weeks, we've seen EPSOM Girls' Grammar announce it will
offer Cambridge exams next year. Mount Albert Grammar's principle has
said it's under pressure to offer it as well, and
Auckland Grammar's principle wants it scrapped entirely. Are you surprised
to see this push away from n the CEA?
Speaker 4 (01:18):
Not really, I think we've seen it happen over a
number of years.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Right.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
So since NCIA came out in the early two thousands,
we've had a number of schools that have started.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
To offer alternative qualifications.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
So this has been something that's been consistent with NCA
throughout the.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Whole time that we've had it.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
I think the latest round of schools saying actually, maybe
we are going to consider something else is in part
a reflection of frustrations about some of the more recent
things that have happened with NCA.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
But I think what we've also.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Seen is that last month there was a briefing paper
given to the government which outlined a whole host of
issues with the qualification, and I think that's possibly spurred
some schools to really reconsider what they're.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Doing, what are some of the concerns and issues evolving
from it.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
So I think there are a number of things that
have been identified. One is around a lack of consistency.
So we know that the way that the qualification works,
students can sit individual standards, so they're not necessarily doing
a whole body of work within a single subject. They're able,
(02:30):
to some degree peck and queues. This has led to
some students in some schools just opting into what are
perceived to be easiest standards. In many instances, it is
meant that students are getting the qualification just through sitting
internal assessments, so doing course work during the year that's
marked by school teachers. And what we know about the
(02:51):
internals from research that's happened over a number of years
is that in many cases they suffer from great inflation,
so there's not always a lot of validity about it.
And so you've got students who are not necessarily sitting
the external exams either. So there are a whole host
of different issues, and I think another thing that's come
up is that the qualification is not necessarily easily internationally
(03:13):
comparable either.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
So the suggestion of picking and choosing is that where
the gaming the system chat comes from.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
It is the gaming the system part of it. So
depending there are different ways that you can achieve your qualification.
And so what a lot of students are doing is
thinking how can I utilize the flexibility that's built into
NCA to ensure that I get the qualification? And in
some instances, but it's really important to stress this is
not happening in all schools or in all instances, they say,
(03:42):
how can I pick so called easier credits in order
to build up my qualification, rather than say, sitting the
entirety of your level three maths paper, you say, I'll
pick this set of this standard here, this standard here,
in order to build it up, rather than saying, actually,
I'm just going to sit a full year thirteen Maths
(04:04):
course or a whole year thirteen English course.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
And why wouldn't you though, if that option was available
to you. Of course these kids are going to go
for the easier option.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Yeah, I mean it is a very rational response to
the way that the qualification set up, right, so you
can't blame them for doing this. And one of the
other things that we know is happening is that you
need to get a certain number of credits in order
to pass each level of NCA. Well, for some students
they get the necessary credits just through internal assessments during
(04:37):
the year, and as a result, they're not sitting the
end of your exams.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Again, incredibly rational behavior.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
Why would you sit for an exam if it's actually
not going to you don't need it in order to
pass the qualification. From a purely learning point of view,
of course, you want them to be doing that, and
of course you want them to be engaging with the
full scope of the work. But the way the qualification
set up means that you don't use this Sily have to.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
What are some of the stats or research that you've
seen around in CEA. Is it getting into a crisis mode?
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Should we be worried?
Speaker 4 (05:08):
So we know that an increasing number of schools are
no longer offering level one, so that's what students normally
set in year eleven. So I think it's around twenty
five to thirty percent of schools are no longer offering
a level one qualification. In many instances, it's because level
one is not seen to be a particularly I mean,
it doesn't lead to a lot now right, So what
(05:30):
the research would tell us is that students who get
level one and only level one are not necessarily better
off in terms of their employment opportunities compared to students
who don't get level one, and that sort of the
low eventchmark really for qualifications is your level two what
you normally do in year twelve. So as a result
of a lot of schools are dropping that and that
(05:52):
does raise questions if you have a growing number of
schools across the country saying actually we're not going to
offer one level of the nationalqual Alification system. You do
have to start asking questions about what's going on.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Are you going to blow it up?
Speaker 5 (06:07):
When are you going to everything's on the table, because genuinely,
there's nothing more important than getting our kids well educated.
I speak to a lot of parents, teachers, principles. They
have really serious concerns about NCAA and the danger as
you can go through an exercise where you reassured that
you're getting well educated because you're getting different getting through
the NCAA system. But the thing for me and for
(06:29):
the parents and teachers that I run into is, are
our kids at fifteen sixteen as well educated as their
counterparts in Australia or Canada or Ireland or something else
we went to. We can't. That's got to be globally comparable.
And secondarity, are we actually teaching them the basics and
giving them a core educational program that actually sets them
up well for working life?
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Is there some old fashioned thinking here as well? I mean,
I feel like a certain generation is just fixated on
that idea of end of year exams being the be
all and then all right, And I remember, I'm not
giving away my age, but it was certainly that way
when I finished high school as well. But it is
true that that kind of one size fits all approach
doesn't work for every kid, right.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Yeah, absolutely right.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
And I think one of the things, one of the
reasons why NCA was brought in and the way that
it was brought in was to create a degree.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Of flexibility within our schooling system.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
So it enabled students to receive a qualification by putting
together different series of standards, different sets of credits.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
To form a pathway that was going to work for them.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
And I think whenever we're thinking about our qualification system,
we want to be ensuring that we have pathways for
different types of students.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
I think what's.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
Happened on the flip side, though, is that that's potentially
gone a little bit too far and we need to
actually look at some of what's going on in there.
So there are definitely things that we need to strengthen,
and you know, there are steps that we could take
that would strengthen it. And I mean, personally, I think
that probably is a role for indo viewer exams, but
(08:05):
I'm not sure that that's the only method that we
want to be using and we know that in a
number of subjects, actually having internals is also really important
because there are things that you just can't assess through
an ind of viewer exam.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
So since we're talking about alternatives, let's look at the
big two that are offered. Hey, so Cambridge and the
International Backer Laureates, which I've heard referred to as IB
for FS reasons. So what are they and how do
they differ from in CEA?
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Sure, so Cambridge is out of the UK, IB is
out of Switzerland, and you're right, the other two big
international qualifications that are used around the world, but also
a number of New Zealand schools are utilizing. So in Cambridge,
that's probably your most traditional So if you're thinking back
(09:02):
to sort of what it used to be like, it's
quite similar to what Cambridge is. You would normally in
your final two years of school. So the program runs
across the final two years of school, so you're year
twelve and year thirteen. Students are usually taking four maybe
five subjects in that and they are primarily assessed through
an end of year exam, although some subjects do have
(09:23):
some internal assessment component built into that, but you do
have far more of an exam focus. You know, you
pick the subjects that you're going to do and you
do the entirety of that subject, so you don't have
a subject made up of individual standards that you can
pick and choose on. You just sit that subject. International
Facalaureat I'd be in some way similar, but it's a
(09:45):
more holistic system. So again it runs over the final
two years of school, So it's a two year course
and it comprises a max of both external exams at
the end of your course as well as a number
of internal assessments. I think one of the key differences
between IV and Cambridge is that in ID you do
(10:06):
do more subjects, and you also are required to take
a range of different subjects. So for instance, you take
a science, you take maths, you take English, you learn
a language, you do a humanity or social science.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
But you also have.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
Learning that you do in activities that you do outside
of your sort of academic program.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
So they have.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Something called the theory of Knowledge, which is really around
philosophy that all students take. All students are required to
do what they call CASS, which stands for Creativity Activity
in service, So you have to do something creative so
that might be music, it might be drama, it might
be dance. You have to do activity, which is some
(10:49):
sort of sport or physical activity, and some sort of
service activity. So you're getting quite a holistic, sort of
well rounded aspect to your education. And you also do
what they call the extended essay. You pick one of
the subjects that you're doing and you do an in
depth research project in it. So it is a very holistic,
broad qualification, right.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
And when I asked, because I'm not from this land,
so I asked a few people around the office which
ones that they did are, ninety nine percent said that
they did n CAEA. And when I asked about the
Cambridge and IB a couple of comments were like, well,
they're just like kind of for rich schools or people
who want to do UNI.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
At like Oxford or something. I mean, is that a
fair assessment? I mean, I think yes and no.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
I mean, one thing I would say is that you
can get into universities around the world sitting in CEA.
So I wouldn't want anyone to think, oh my goodness,
I'm not going to be a up to go to
somewhere else to do my university. Because I did NCA.
That's absolutely not true, you can. I think you're right
in saying that in many cases it's your larger secondary
(11:58):
schools from you know, wealthier areas that are opting to
do these alternative qualifications. In the case of IB, that's
because it's actually really expensive to do IB for a
school to set up IB, and part of the reason
for that is that all teachers who are teaching IB
have to go through quite a rigorous training program in
(12:19):
order to be able to teach IB, and in most instances,
those training programs happen off shore, so schools are having
to fund teachers to go off shore to participate in
their training. But you're definitely right in that it is
largely our larger secondary schools from higher socioeconomic areas that
are opting to do these alternative pathways.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
In CEA is still a good qualification. It's just not
consistent and it can be massively improved. And that's the key.
I don't want to stand here today and say, Lo,
the MCA is terrible. It's still a very good qualification.
Many students still end up in high quality universities all
(13:04):
over the world. Many people are still choosing it over
other qualifications, but there is a lot that we can
do to strengthen it, to make it more consistent, to
make parents understand it. I mean, why on earth can
we not go back to a markout of one hundred
for goodness sake. ABC, I've got my children coming home
saying I only had to answer two of the questions
(13:24):
to get excellent. But what do you mean you didn't
have to answer all of the questions? Oh, I don't know,
just the excellence one.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
What are the results like?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Is there any better?
Speaker 4 (13:34):
That's a really hard question to answer, right, because what
we know is that in many of these schools actually
they retain INCA as well, So you have some students
doing nca you do have some students doing Cambridge or
International Baccalaureate, So it's really hard to make a direct comparison.
It's also really hard to compare results with the NCAA
(13:58):
with results actually in either of the other qualifications because
the way that their assessed is slightly different, So you
can't make a direct comparison.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I guess in terms of those three qualifications, would you
recommend one over the other or does it just depend
on the kid.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
So I'm always a big advocate and just about anything
in education and saying you match it to the child.
And you know, I think IB could definitely suit some people.
But if you've got someone who has a particular interest
in certain subjects, he's actually really not going to suit
them because you're having to do a wide range of subjects,
you know, and that's where INCA can be really valuable,
(14:35):
because you can start to specialize in particular subjects. I
think the other thing that we haven't touched on that's
really critically important when we're thinking about any qualification system,
and particularly if we're thinking about well, what where do
we go next to New Zealand, is that alongside any
sort of more academically oriented qualification system, we also need
(14:56):
to make sure that we've got a really strong vocational
education and a training system running alongside that, because we
know that there are a number of children in our
school for whom that is the right pathway for them.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
At the end of the day.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
And this is something that I found interesting when talking
to a couple of the younger ones in the office
as well. Does it still seem like if you don't
do well in year thirteen that that is the end
of your life? You know that feeling of just say,
I'm like, is it the same? Because I remember where
it was year twelve back where I'm from, and I
remember getting my results back and there being a discrepancy
(15:32):
or something, and I, honestly, god, I thought, this is it.
This is the end. I'm never going to amount to
anything in my entire life.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Is that still drilled into kids these days. Yeah, that's
a really interesting question.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
I mean, I think the qualifications that you get at
the end of school are always going to be important
because you know, it's at that age that's sort of
the barrier or frontier between that and the next thing
that you're going to go on to do. And you know,
particularly for students who are wanting to go on to university,
then yeah, that is really important. But it's a really
(16:06):
interesting question to explore and to ask because we also
know that there are changing dynamics, and you know, there
are people around the world who are questioning more and
more the value of university and whether it's the right
pathway for different people to be pursuing. But I think
by and large, there is still a perception, definitely among
(16:28):
broader society that qualifications in school do matter, that they
do still stand for something.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
And just lastly, Nina, if you could change anything about
the system tomorrow. So you've got Erica Stamford on the phone.
She's like, yes, Nina, I will do whatever you tell me.
I'll do it today. What's the first thing that you
would tackle?
Speaker 4 (16:49):
I mean, I think what you've got to do is
you've got to make sure that our qualification system is
being based off our curriculum. Right, in an ideal world,
what you do is you write a really great curriculum
and then you design an assessment system that actually enables
you to assess how well the students have progressed through
(17:10):
that particular curriculum. NCA hasn't actually worked like that. It
has operated distinct from the curriculum, in part because there
are a whole host of issues with the current curriculum,
although those are being addressed by the work that's currently
underway and redeveloping the curriculum. But essentially, what you have
is a qualification system and a set of standards that
(17:33):
are defining the curriculum as it is at the moment.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
So we need to flip that.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
We need to say, what's our curriculum, make sure it's
really rigorous and robust, and then design a qualification system
that enables us to reliably and validly test that.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Right, so what you've been learning during the year actually
shows up in the end of your exam.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
Absolutely, And I think you know, one of the things
we could also do because we know we have an
issue with internal assessments at the moment with NCAA, and
we don't want to get rid of them completely.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
We want to have certain.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
Aspects, of course in a program that are internally assessed,
but we need to find a way to make that
internal assessment more robust, and there are a number of
ways that.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
We could do that.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
One is that you could say, actually, it's not the
classroom teachers that are going to be marking those internals.
They're all going to be centrally marked. And that's what
some of the other international qualification systems do. They don't
enable individual schools to mark their own students' work. They
send them out centrally and they're marked centrally. I think
the other thing we could do with our current system,
(18:39):
if we were to keep it the way it is,
is to actually not tell students their internal assessment grades
until the end of the year. Because that would then
force them to actually continue to engage in the learning
that they have to do right, And what we have
is students that basically say, oh, I've got all my credits,
I'm going to stop learning part.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Way through the year.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
Well that's ridiculous. They're just losing out on all that
potentially valuable learning. So we could find a way to
try and stop that from happening as well.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Thanks for joining us, Nina, my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzedherld dot co dot nz.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
The Front Page is produced by.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also our editor.
I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio
or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in on
Monday for another look behind the headlines.
Kiota.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The National
Certificate of Educational Achievement or NCEA, has been New Zealand's
main secondary school qualification for more than twenty years now,
(00:27):
but its future could be on the line as more
top schools plan to offer alternatives and a government briefing
raised concerns about its credibility.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
So is NCEA really as bad as.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
It's made out to be? And what would be the
benefit of switching your kid over to another option?
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Out there?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Today?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
On the front Page, Doctor Nina Hood from the Education
Hub is with us to discuss the future of high
schooling in New Zealand. Nina.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
In the last few.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Weeks weeks, we've seen EPSOM Girls' Grammar announce it will
offer Cambridge exams next year. Mount Albert Grammar's principle has
said it's under pressure to offer it as well, and
Auckland Grammar's principle wants it scrapped entirely. Are you surprised
to see this push away from n the CEA?
Speaker 4 (01:18):
Not really, I think we've seen it happen over a
number of years.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Right.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
So since NCIA came out in the early two thousands,
we've had a number of schools that have started.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
To offer alternative qualifications.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
So this has been something that's been consistent with NCA
throughout the.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Whole time that we've had it.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
I think the latest round of schools saying actually, maybe
we are going to consider something else is in part
a reflection of frustrations about some of the more recent
things that have happened with NCA.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
But I think what we've also.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Seen is that last month there was a briefing paper
given to the government which outlined a whole host of
issues with the qualification, and I think that's possibly spurred
some schools to really reconsider what they're.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Doing, what are some of the concerns and issues evolving
from it.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
So I think there are a number of things that
have been identified. One is around a lack of consistency.
So we know that the way that the qualification works,
students can sit individual standards, so they're not necessarily doing
a whole body of work within a single subject. They're able,
(02:30):
to some degree peck and queues. This has led to
some students in some schools just opting into what are
perceived to be easiest standards. In many instances, it is
meant that students are getting the qualification just through sitting
internal assessments, so doing course work during the year that's
marked by school teachers. And what we know about the
(02:51):
internals from research that's happened over a number of years
is that in many cases they suffer from great inflation,
so there's not always a lot of validity about it.
And so you've got students who are not necessarily sitting
the external exams either. So there are a whole host
of different issues, and I think another thing that's come
up is that the qualification is not necessarily easily internationally
(03:13):
comparable either.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
So the suggestion of picking and choosing is that where
the gaming the system chat comes from.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
It is the gaming the system part of it. So
depending there are different ways that you can achieve your qualification.
And so what a lot of students are doing is
thinking how can I utilize the flexibility that's built into
NCA to ensure that I get the qualification? And in
some instances, but it's really important to stress this is
not happening in all schools or in all instances, they say,
(03:42):
how can I pick so called easier credits in order
to build up my qualification, rather than say, sitting the
entirety of your level three maths paper, you say, I'll
pick this set of this standard here, this standard here,
in order to build it up, rather than saying, actually,
I'm just going to sit a full year thirteen Maths
(04:04):
course or a whole year thirteen English course.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
And why wouldn't you though, if that option was available
to you. Of course these kids are going to go
for the easier option.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Yeah, I mean it is a very rational response to
the way that the qualification set up, right, so you
can't blame them for doing this. And one of the
other things that we know is happening is that you
need to get a certain number of credits in order
to pass each level of NCA. Well, for some students
they get the necessary credits just through internal assessments during
(04:37):
the year, and as a result, they're not sitting the
end of your exams.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Again, incredibly rational behavior.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
Why would you sit for an exam if it's actually
not going to you don't need it in order to
pass the qualification. From a purely learning point of view,
of course, you want them to be doing that, and
of course you want them to be engaging with the
full scope of the work. But the way the qualification
set up means that you don't use this Sily have to.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
What are some of the stats or research that you've
seen around in CEA. Is it getting into a crisis mode?
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Should we be worried?
Speaker 4 (05:08):
So we know that an increasing number of schools are
no longer offering level one, so that's what students normally
set in year eleven. So I think it's around twenty
five to thirty percent of schools are no longer offering
a level one qualification. In many instances, it's because level
one is not seen to be a particularly I mean,
it doesn't lead to a lot now right, So what
(05:30):
the research would tell us is that students who get
level one and only level one are not necessarily better
off in terms of their employment opportunities compared to students
who don't get level one, and that sort of the
low eventchmark really for qualifications is your level two what
you normally do in year twelve. So as a result
of a lot of schools are dropping that and that
(05:52):
does raise questions if you have a growing number of
schools across the country saying actually we're not going to
offer one level of the nationalqual Alification system. You do
have to start asking questions about what's going on.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Are you going to blow it up?
Speaker 5 (06:07):
When are you going to everything's on the table, because genuinely,
there's nothing more important than getting our kids well educated.
I speak to a lot of parents, teachers, principles. They
have really serious concerns about NCAA and the danger as
you can go through an exercise where you reassured that
you're getting well educated because you're getting different getting through
the NCAA system. But the thing for me and for
(06:29):
the parents and teachers that I run into is, are
our kids at fifteen sixteen as well educated as their
counterparts in Australia or Canada or Ireland or something else
we went to. We can't. That's got to be globally comparable.
And secondarity, are we actually teaching them the basics and
giving them a core educational program that actually sets them
up well for working life?
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Is there some old fashioned thinking here as well? I mean,
I feel like a certain generation is just fixated on
that idea of end of year exams being the be
all and then all right, And I remember, I'm not
giving away my age, but it was certainly that way
when I finished high school as well. But it is
true that that kind of one size fits all approach
doesn't work for every kid, right.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Yeah, absolutely right.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
And I think one of the things, one of the
reasons why NCA was brought in and the way that
it was brought in was to create a degree.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Of flexibility within our schooling system.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
So it enabled students to receive a qualification by putting
together different series of standards, different sets of credits.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
To form a pathway that was going to work for them.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
And I think whenever we're thinking about our qualification system,
we want to be ensuring that we have pathways for
different types of students.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
I think what's.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
Happened on the flip side, though, is that that's potentially
gone a little bit too far and we need to
actually look at some of what's going on in there.
So there are definitely things that we need to strengthen,
and you know, there are steps that we could take
that would strengthen it. And I mean, personally, I think
that probably is a role for indo viewer exams, but
(08:05):
I'm not sure that that's the only method that we
want to be using and we know that in a
number of subjects, actually having internals is also really important
because there are things that you just can't assess through
an ind of viewer exam.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
So since we're talking about alternatives, let's look at the
big two that are offered. Hey, so Cambridge and the
International Backer Laureates, which I've heard referred to as IB
for FS reasons. So what are they and how do
they differ from in CEA?
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Sure, so Cambridge is out of the UK, IB is
out of Switzerland, and you're right, the other two big
international qualifications that are used around the world, but also
a number of New Zealand schools are utilizing. So in Cambridge,
that's probably your most traditional So if you're thinking back
(09:02):
to sort of what it used to be like, it's
quite similar to what Cambridge is. You would normally in
your final two years of school. So the program runs
across the final two years of school, so you're year
twelve and year thirteen. Students are usually taking four maybe
five subjects in that and they are primarily assessed through
an end of year exam, although some subjects do have
(09:23):
some internal assessment component built into that, but you do
have far more of an exam focus. You know, you
pick the subjects that you're going to do and you
do the entirety of that subject, so you don't have
a subject made up of individual standards that you can
pick and choose on. You just sit that subject. International
Facalaureat I'd be in some way similar, but it's a
(09:45):
more holistic system. So again it runs over the final
two years of school, So it's a two year course
and it comprises a max of both external exams at
the end of your course as well as a number
of internal assessments. I think one of the key differences
between IV and Cambridge is that in ID you do
(10:06):
do more subjects, and you also are required to take
a range of different subjects. So for instance, you take
a science, you take maths, you take English, you learn
a language, you do a humanity or social science.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
But you also have.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
Learning that you do in activities that you do outside
of your sort of academic program.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
So they have.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Something called the theory of Knowledge, which is really around
philosophy that all students take. All students are required to
do what they call CASS, which stands for Creativity Activity
in service, So you have to do something creative so
that might be music, it might be drama, it might
be dance. You have to do activity, which is some
(10:49):
sort of sport or physical activity, and some sort of
service activity. So you're getting quite a holistic, sort of
well rounded aspect to your education. And you also do
what they call the extended essay. You pick one of
the subjects that you're doing and you do an in
depth research project in it. So it is a very holistic,
broad qualification, right.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
And when I asked, because I'm not from this land,
so I asked a few people around the office which
ones that they did are, ninety nine percent said that
they did n CAEA. And when I asked about the
Cambridge and IB a couple of comments were like, well,
they're just like kind of for rich schools or people
who want to do UNI.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
At like Oxford or something. I mean, is that a
fair assessment? I mean, I think yes and no.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
I mean, one thing I would say is that you
can get into universities around the world sitting in CEA.
So I wouldn't want anyone to think, oh my goodness,
I'm not going to be a up to go to
somewhere else to do my university. Because I did NCA.
That's absolutely not true, you can. I think you're right
in saying that in many cases it's your larger secondary
(11:58):
schools from you know, wealthier areas that are opting to
do these alternative qualifications. In the case of IB, that's
because it's actually really expensive to do IB for a
school to set up IB, and part of the reason
for that is that all teachers who are teaching IB
have to go through quite a rigorous training program in
(12:19):
order to be able to teach IB, and in most instances,
those training programs happen off shore, so schools are having
to fund teachers to go off shore to participate in
their training. But you're definitely right in that it is
largely our larger secondary schools from higher socioeconomic areas that
are opting to do these alternative pathways.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
In CEA is still a good qualification. It's just not
consistent and it can be massively improved. And that's the key.
I don't want to stand here today and say, Lo,
the MCA is terrible. It's still a very good qualification.
Many students still end up in high quality universities all
(13:04):
over the world. Many people are still choosing it over
other qualifications, but there is a lot that we can
do to strengthen it, to make it more consistent, to
make parents understand it. I mean, why on earth can
we not go back to a markout of one hundred
for goodness sake. ABC, I've got my children coming home
saying I only had to answer two of the questions
(13:24):
to get excellent. But what do you mean you didn't
have to answer all of the questions? Oh, I don't know,
just the excellence one.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
What are the results like?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Is there any better?
Speaker 4 (13:34):
That's a really hard question to answer, right, because what
we know is that in many of these schools actually
they retain INCA as well, So you have some students
doing nca you do have some students doing Cambridge or
International Baccalaureate, So it's really hard to make a direct comparison.
It's also really hard to compare results with the NCAA
(13:58):
with results actually in either of the other qualifications because
the way that their assessed is slightly different, So you
can't make a direct comparison.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I guess in terms of those three qualifications, would you
recommend one over the other or does it just depend
on the kid.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
So I'm always a big advocate and just about anything
in education and saying you match it to the child.
And you know, I think IB could definitely suit some people.
But if you've got someone who has a particular interest
in certain subjects, he's actually really not going to suit
them because you're having to do a wide range of subjects,
you know, and that's where INCA can be really valuable,
(14:35):
because you can start to specialize in particular subjects. I
think the other thing that we haven't touched on that's
really critically important when we're thinking about any qualification system,
and particularly if we're thinking about well, what where do
we go next to New Zealand, is that alongside any
sort of more academically oriented qualification system, we also need
(14:56):
to make sure that we've got a really strong vocational
education and a training system running alongside that, because we
know that there are a number of children in our
school for whom that is the right pathway for them.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
At the end of the day.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
And this is something that I found interesting when talking
to a couple of the younger ones in the office
as well. Does it still seem like if you don't
do well in year thirteen that that is the end
of your life? You know that feeling of just say,
I'm like, is it the same? Because I remember where
it was year twelve back where I'm from, and I
remember getting my results back and there being a discrepancy
(15:32):
or something, and I, honestly, god, I thought, this is it.
This is the end. I'm never going to amount to
anything in my entire life.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Is that still drilled into kids these days. Yeah, that's
a really interesting question.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
I mean, I think the qualifications that you get at
the end of school are always going to be important
because you know, it's at that age that's sort of
the barrier or frontier between that and the next thing
that you're going to go on to do. And you know,
particularly for students who are wanting to go on to university,
then yeah, that is really important. But it's a really
(16:06):
interesting question to explore and to ask because we also
know that there are changing dynamics, and you know, there
are people around the world who are questioning more and
more the value of university and whether it's the right
pathway for different people to be pursuing. But I think
by and large, there is still a perception, definitely among
(16:28):
broader society that qualifications in school do matter, that they
do still stand for something.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
And just lastly, Nina, if you could change anything about
the system tomorrow. So you've got Erica Stamford on the phone.
She's like, yes, Nina, I will do whatever you tell me.
I'll do it today. What's the first thing that you
would tackle?
Speaker 4 (16:49):
I mean, I think what you've got to do is
you've got to make sure that our qualification system is
being based off our curriculum. Right, in an ideal world,
what you do is you write a really great curriculum
and then you design an assessment system that actually enables
you to assess how well the students have progressed through
(17:10):
that particular curriculum. NCA hasn't actually worked like that. It
has operated distinct from the curriculum, in part because there
are a whole host of issues with the current curriculum,
although those are being addressed by the work that's currently
underway and redeveloping the curriculum. But essentially, what you have
is a qualification system and a set of standards that
(17:33):
are defining the curriculum as it is at the moment.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
So we need to flip that.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
We need to say, what's our curriculum, make sure it's
really rigorous and robust, and then design a qualification system
that enables us to reliably and validly test that.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Right, so what you've been learning during the year actually
shows up in the end of your exam.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
Absolutely, And I think you know, one of the things
we could also do because we know we have an
issue with internal assessments at the moment with NCAA, and
we don't want to get rid of them completely.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
We want to have certain.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
Aspects, of course in a program that are internally assessed,
but we need to find a way to make that
internal assessment more robust, and there are a number of
ways that.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
We could do that.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
One is that you could say, actually, it's not the
classroom teachers that are going to be marking those internals.
They're all going to be centrally marked. And that's what
some of the other international qualification systems do. They don't
enable individual schools to mark their own students' work. They
send them out centrally and they're marked centrally. I think
the other thing we could do with our current system,
(18:39):
if we were to keep it the way it is,
is to actually not tell students their internal assessment grades
until the end of the year. Because that would then
force them to actually continue to engage in the learning
that they have to do right, And what we have
is students that basically say, oh, I've got all my credits,
I'm going to stop learning part.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Way through the year.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
Well that's ridiculous. They're just losing out on all that
potentially valuable learning. So we could find a way to
try and stop that from happening as well.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Thanks for joining us, Nina, my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzedherld dot co dot nz.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
The Front Page is produced by.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also our editor.
I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio
or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in on
Monday for another look behind the headlines.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com