June 16, 2024 • 37 mins
Psychotherapist Kyle MacDonald joins the Weekend Collective to discuss the rise in diagnosing adult ADHD.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks edby.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome back to the Weekend Collective. We're taking your calls now.
This is the Health Hub on eight hundred and eighty
ten eighty. You can text me on nine two nine two.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Actually, don't worry about the email. It's texts or.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Calls, okay, eight hundred eighteen eighty text nine two nine two.
And also, if you miss any of the hours, as
I always like to remind people, go and check out
our podcast which will be up shortly after the show,
and that will contain anything you've missed.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
And that's at iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Look for the Weekend Collective right now though, it is
time for the Health Hub and joining me is I
needs no introduction. That's Carl McDonald. But let's you are
a psych psychologist. Psychotherapist? Is that another word we can
use to describe your Carl?
Speaker 4 (00:51):
And good afternoon, Yeah, thank you, good afternoon. You know
I am a psychotherapist, not a psychologist.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Oh I got it round the wrong way.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Sorry, that's fine, that's mine, that's my fault.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
We are slightly different things.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Yes, and we're going to talk about Look, Adhd.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Has been in the news actually first was thrown in
by Tory Fado, but recently our own friend and sports
talkback host Darcy Watergrave has had a chat in the
New Zealand Herald and talked about has ADHD diagnosis and
as adults it's sort of the topic djure at the moment,
(01:25):
I've got a really I'm not sure if I've.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Got a really dumb question.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Oh I love dumb questions, because I guess if ADHD
is something that is aside from the normal, what's normal?
Speaker 4 (01:39):
Yeah, well, I mean I think that's a great question.
Actually is not a dumb question. It's a good place
to start because actually, even with ADHD, it's everything that
you can see in all of the different behavioral difficulties
and all of the sort of neurodiverse ranges are all
things that exist on a spectrum. Right, So whether it's
ADHD or even depression for that matter, everything is just
(02:01):
on a spectrum. This is this old, this old phenomena
with psych students and psychiatry students where you sort of
get the first copy of the DSM five we're up
to now, which is the diagnostic Manual for psychiatry, and
you read through it and you discover that all of
a sudden you've got ten disorders yourself that you didn't know.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
You had because what had readon go oh my god.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Yeah, because what happens is you see yourself in these
diagnoses because they describe aspects of human nature. Now, the
trick with diagnosis, and we're starting to understand we stick
to ADHD, is that lots of people can see themselves
in that diagnosis, which is primarily around difficult inattention, so
(02:41):
difficulty with attention, hyperactivity or more sort of restlessness and
adults disruptive behaviors and impulsivity. Right, we can probably will
see ourselves in different ways in that. But the trick
is it's only a problem if it's a problem, which
is to say, does it actually prevent you from doing
things in your life like working or having productive relationships?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
So yeah, I can imagine probably the last thing any
layperson should do is to read that what is it,
the manual diagnostic manual?
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Yeah? Is it a big read. It's like a pH
phone book.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
If people remember what a phone book.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Was, do you actually read the whole thing?
Speaker 4 (03:19):
We have to familiarize yourself with its Yeah, But the
point is recognizing that actually every single one of those
category has basically has a proviso which said, this has
only a problem if it's a problem.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Is that the danger we're out at the oh danger, look,
I'm gonna use I'd probably use hyperbolic words sometimes from yeah,
but I get no, no, let's let's go with it.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Is that the sort of the.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Problem that we've got at the moment there we go.
That's better is that there's a bit of a zeitgeist
going around that such and such as on the spectrum,
or such and such as neurodiverse and or has got ADHD.
And of course I think that that Darcy is talking
about his ADHD is incredibly positive thing. And I love
hearing stories about people who are you, who are successful
(04:07):
in doing well while they are living with a particular
But now it's become the zeitgeist that everyone's we're all
navel gazing.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Are we in danger of navel.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Gazing ourselves into a sort of into considering into creating
a problem for ourselves where we don't need to. I'm
trying to find a way of you know what I mean?
Are we all getting so preoccupied we all think we're crazy.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
Well, if we take neurodiverse, and I.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Say crazy in a lighthearted sense.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
On a judgment, I take your meaning. I mean, I
think it's a question that should be asked because there's
always a risk that once something becomes well looked at
or sort of, you know, quite popular. You know, there's
a lot of TikTok videos and online conversations of people
talking about their diagnosis of ADHD, so people get very
worried about this. Just to step back for a moment,
(04:58):
you know, when we look at how many people were
left handed in the nineteen fifties, it was an incredibly
small number. Why because if you picked up a pen
with your left hand in high school, you got whacked
on the knuckles by the teacher and trained to write
with your right hand. So what we see if you
graph the number of people who would describe themselves as
left handed from the nineteen fifties to now is a
(05:19):
really steep curve. And people could look at that and go,
what's behind this sudden surge of right and left handedness splitting. Well, actually,
it's people just being allowed to express themselves who they
are naturally terrible. Now, if we approach neurodiversity, people on
the spectrum and Adhd similarly. Then what we see is
that actually, if we go wind back the clock to
before we had a good understanding of these things, boys
(05:41):
who were restless and couldn't fidget it in class and
couldn't pay attention, particularly in old school education where you
were literally required to sit at your desk for two
hours and right, which is not something that suits everybody,
were labeled dumb, they were labeled disruptive, they were suspended.
They were probably pushed away from academic subjects and towards
other things that were considered appropriate for people that were
a bit thick. What we now know is that actually
(06:04):
a lot of the traditional model of education that you know,
probably you or I experienced actually just doesn't suit the
way some people's brains are wired. And the question then
we have to ask, is the problem in the individual
or is the problem and how we expect people to
fit into a very narrow band of what we consider
normal education.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Actually it's interesting without mentioning names. When I was courting
my wife, I guess he used to travel down to
christ Church and she's a primary school. She specializes with
special needs kids. But when I met her, she was
a that was a strong interest of hers, and I
went into a class and she was reading to the
class one day and there was a young boy and
(06:44):
of course I'm not going to say who it was.
His great, amazing kid, incredibly talented, but there was a child,
and that we're talking about five year olds, six year olds,
and he was wandering around the back of the class,
picking things up and looking at them and examining them
and every now and again, and once I think he
called out to my wife, Miss tippin such and such
a just went not.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
She just said, I'll talk to you later about that.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
And I looked at her, like, what's going on. You've
got somebody who're not paying attention, and she just waved
me away, like don't worry, I've got this. And of
course she had worked out that he just had different
needs and it wasn't a problem because she was managing it.
And actually he's an awesome kid. I got to know him,
you got to know him a little bit, and I
really that's in the old days, that kid would have
(07:30):
been to the principal's office or something told off, and
instead he just just.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
It's one of the interesting outcomes of ADHD when we
start to talk to people who are adults now who
are receiving a diagnosis, is that actually what's hard to
separate out is how much is the different way that
a person's brain is wired, right, because that's the facts
of someone who experiences ADHD, versus how much is it
(07:56):
a consequence? How much is their difficulty as a consequence
of the numbers of negative interactions they had through education.
So some studies have estimated that if you have ADHD
and you went through a traditional schooling system, you received
about five to ten thousand more negative or critical interactions
than someone who didn't. So you can imagine the impact
(08:16):
that has on people over the course of the child,
potentially devastating, I guess absolutely. And so what we see
as we see that often people come to this in
adulthood and really sort of start to think about, well,
maybe there isn't something wrong with me. Maybe I'm just different,
and maybe I just need to approach the world in
a different way, which may include things like medication or
therapy to learn some different skills. But for some people
it's actually just validating to understand that that's what's going
(08:39):
on for them.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Well, so what would be a flag for someone to
have a look at whether maybe they should get a diagnosis.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Yeah, so the classics sort of behavioral science, it tends
to be more what other people notice will be more
the hyperactivity, people who are restless, who are constantly jiggling,
people who are jiggling their their feet, or particularly fidgety
or restless when they're trying to sit still. One of
the other things, which seems a bit contradictory is an
over focus, so sometimes as an inattention, like an ability
(09:12):
to sort of sit down and do one thing at
a time, but also sometimes are over focused, so you know,
we'll get locked into a particular project or assignment at
the exclusion of everything else and eating and drinking and
talking to anybody else.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
But I think the.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Main thing is is is it causing and has it
caused problems in your life when it comes to employment
or education of actually feeling subjectively like it's difficult to
pay attention and focus in ways that other people seem
to find very easy. What people talk about often is
a brain fog.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
I guess the thing is because we get caught up
in our own we get used to ourselves, and so
we get we normalize a lot of the time our
own behavior where other people might I don't know. If
I ask someone about me, people will be like, oh, yeah,
have you not noticed that quirk you've got and be like, no,
what's that?
Speaker 3 (09:57):
And so do you listen to outside? I mean.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
It's almost asking for a lay diagnosis. But I mean, yeah,
so again I get back to that question, how would
you know when you might think that everything you're doing
is normal?
Speaker 4 (10:13):
Yeah, well, I mean I think that people who really
struggle with this know that subjectively they struggle, you know,
so you would know. So lots of noise in the brain,
difficulty paying attention, easily distracted. You know, what people talk
about is having a thousand tabs open on their browser
and not being able to follow things through. And that
(10:34):
hyperactivity elements really important and one of the things that
we often see in the context of adult diagnosed This
also as often as a high degree of substance abuse,
because people often find some relief from the internal noise
and the hyperactivity and the restlessness in drugs like alcohol
and cannabis.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
It's that because it calms them down and sort of
just slows down some of that extra activity.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
That's yeah, yeah, some people do find that And interestingly,
also methamphetamine, which is a powerful stimulant which is very
chemically similar to actually medications that people have probably heard of,
like Rittline that are often prescribed for ADHD. Often people
find that their use of stimulant drugs illicitly is explainable
in the context of ADHD and is one of the
(11:17):
really interesting quirks of ADHD. So one of the diagnostic
tests often if you see a psychiatrist and you get
prescribed medication, is they will give you a trial of
one of the Brittlin type medications, the stimulants, and if
people have ADHD, then they actually paradoxically, it's called a
paradoxical effect. They find that the stimulant medications actually calm
them down and help them focus. Whereas if you or
(11:39):
I able to take a medication like that, we feel
like we'd have six coffees and be really uncomfortable because
we'd be very stimulated chemically. So what happens in the
brain is that for people who have ADHD, the hyperactive
behavior is actually at an attempt to feel comfortable, to
stimulate our attention up to a level which is comfortable.
Their medication then achieves the same thing and brings our
(12:02):
resting level of stimulation up, which paradoxically enables people with
ADHD to focus and relax.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Wow, actually I've started watching I'm not sure I've started
watching Breaking Bad again, but there's just the scene.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
Where some fantastics here.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Oh my goodness, I forgot how good it was that.
I thought My memory was that it's slow to develop,
but the first first. But they it shows someone using
meth and the instant relief, and I must have met
part of me was wondering what on earth happens when
(12:36):
they're getting that hit. I know we don't want to
get into drug addiction right now necessarily, but funny that
it's It's also the reason that I would never ever
try anything, because I would be worried that I might
go jeepers.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Might try that again tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Is that how addiction starts or is it a physical
addiction with that stuff?
Speaker 3 (12:55):
I think, just by the.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
Bye, I think that's a little bit Hollywood. But what
is true is that everybody who ends up dependent on
substances does it because it achieve something positive for them
in a way, like the consequences will of course end
up being negative, and there is always a negative outcome
with dependence, But the initial experiences is often one of relief.
(13:17):
And you can imagine if it's very difficult to relax,
if you're constantly feeling agitated and restless, that actually discovering
something that makes you feel a bit better is quite
a relief for people. So again, when we think about adults,
it's often a bit of a red flag if they
have that history.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Okay, look we'd like to take your cause on this
on eight hundred eighty ten eighty. You can text on
nine to two nine two if you've got any questions
for Kyley's a psychotherapist. And look, we're not going to
do any in depth diagnosis obviously, but if you want
to steer on something, or you've got someone you're concerned about,
or you're worried, you're thinking, hang on, this is the
way I've been all my life. And I've got a
(13:53):
couple of questions for Kyle about this, we'd love to
hear from you. And also if you have actually has
an adult been recently diagnosed with ADHD, how much of
a relief was that for you? What was what was
the effect on your life? All the questions around that,
You've got any questions for Kyl McDonald, we'd love to
hear from you and welcome back to the Health Hub.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Kyle McDonald's.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I guess we're talking about ADHD and adult ADHD in particular,
and taking your calls if you'd like some advice, give
us the benefit of your experience or whatever.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Oh eight eighty. That's very nice and open, very open anyway, right,
let's crag on David.
Speaker 5 (14:33):
Hi, Yeah, good. I was just wondering if I would
be diagnosed with ADHD. I'm seventy one though, so I
was and what should I run through a brief list
of all my Well, you can, if you can.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
If you like.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
But I mean I wouldn't be in a position to
sort of offer you an opinion over the radio. I
don't feel like that would be it would be appropriate.
But I guess what I would say is that age
is no limitation. So you know, I've heard of people
getting diagnosed in their sixty seventies and eighties recently, and
I think the question to ask yourself is is you know,
would would receiving a diagnosis be useful for you? And
(15:17):
you know in that sense, would it help you understand
something about yourself or help your solve problems that you
may have struggled with in your life, in which case,
starting with your GP or checking out the website adhd
Ort and z the little list of people on there
that will be able to provide a diagnosis as a
great place.
Speaker 5 (15:37):
The GP would be a good starting point.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
A yeah, absolutely, I mean ideally, and I say ideally
because we do have a shortage in New Zealand, so
it can be hard to get in to see someone.
But seeing an experienced psychiatrist is the sort of the
best place to go for an official diagnosis because they
can also talk with you about whether any of the
medication options may be effective. But you don't have to
(16:01):
take medication. It's only one of the treatment options. But
that's why it's generally a good place to stay.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
David, is there anything that made you call up in
terms of what you noticed about yourself?
Speaker 5 (16:11):
Well? Yeah, for a start, I never did any good
at school, monun of the class every time, didn't pass
any school third exams when that was what you had
to pass, and can't sort of concentrate, couldn't read books.
Still can't read books, so you know, apart from maybe
one every three years, because I can't concentrate on, you know,
(16:34):
for more than a page or something, and they have
to go can reread every bloody thing. And the other
thing is that I find the only time I can
sort of relax and not worry about things and not
have to think forty five thousand things at once, and
(16:56):
am able to concentrate on anything when I'm having a
couple of beers, which is all I had these days, anyway,
of cans of beer, or I walk for two and
a half three hours every day, and I find that
then I don't have to worry. I just don't worry
about anything, right, And so that'll be my main concerned
(17:21):
I suppose.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
I mean, certainly there's enough data points there. I think
it's worth asking the question. But you also raise a
really important positive skill, which is exercise. I know lots
of people who experience ADHD. You find a lot of
relief and intense physical exercise, whatever that means for you.
So you know, good two hour walk, that's a that's
a good workout.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Good on you, yep, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (17:44):
And I in my younger days, I used to run
to three hours, not two three hours. But I used
to run every day, but I now I walk two
or three hours every day, and I find, you know,
I guess from what I've heard about meditation, that must
be as close as I get to meditation because I
don't have to I don't think about anything, and I'm
(18:05):
I don't worry about anything. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
Great, So it's a great, great plan, and good on
you for keeping it up.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
But unfortunately the alcohol has been the other sort of
clus on which I've leant.
Speaker 4 (18:20):
Yeah, fair enough with a couple of cans a day,
isn't isn't big intake it? Certainly, you know, as they say,
no alcohol is better than any alcohol, but actually that's
pretty moderate use. But certainly, you know, check out that
website and actually, for everyone out there listening if they
want to learn more about this area, that ADHD dot
org dot z a great website. It's the Attention Deficit
(18:40):
High Peractivity Disorder New Zealand organization and they've got lots
of great information on there for kids, adults, and also
lists of clinicians who specialize in this area here in
New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Yeah, I'm just googling that right now. Now what about
these just before we go to our I'll call us.
I've got some text here. What about those quiz You know,
there's questionnaires on line where you can go through to
find it.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Again, are those any good?
Speaker 6 (19:10):
Are they?
Speaker 3 (19:11):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I'm a bit cynical about them, because, as you mentioned,
you'll recognize just human traits that we all have to
some degree or other.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
Look, I mean subjectivity is always the problem, right, It's
very difficult for anyone to be completely subjective for themselves.
But if you do find yourself really strongly identifying with them,
it can be a pointer. It doesn't mean you have
it right, but it can be a pointer to take
the next step, which is ideally to talk to a
trained medical professional or a psychotherapist or psychologist about whether
(19:39):
it's worth investigating further. And again the golden rule, it's
only a problem if it's a problem.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Okay, right, let's have a look at a few of
the texts here. Text re ADHD versus anxiety anxiety. This
only happens to me when they are in negative people
around me. I can't shake their vibe, causing me sometimes
chaos when people's negativity just rubs off on you and
(20:04):
you can escape it.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
Yeah, anxiety. Anxiety certainly can be a bit infectious, but
also I mean, I guess the thing is with ADHD
again is when you're thinking about this, particularly in your
own context, it has to be consistent. It's not something
that you wake up and it goes away. It's a
consistent experience of oneself where often anxiety comes and goes
in a way that's quite different to attention difficulties.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Actually mentioned exercise.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Well, actually, by the way, anyone, if you feel like
getting some exercises, as long as you monitor, you don't
go suddenly trying to sprint a marathon when you've been
eating McDonald's three times a day into last year or so.
But I mean just getting out and it's just worth
reminding people that exercise is great.
Speaker 4 (20:43):
Oh look, absolutely, And I actually think when we think
about people who we might have in the past sort
of thought of as technical language subclinical, so people who
are a bit wired this way but don't actually it
doesn't cause problems in their life. What you often find
is people who are engaged in intense physical work, like
you know, builders, laborers, sports people often are wired to
(21:05):
be quite you know, need a high level of stimulation
to actually help them focus, which makes sense in the
context of doing those kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Hey, Kate says, does adoctor diagnose ADHD and also manic depressive?
It's a problem, I will see my GP. I don't
want a trendy diagnosis.
Speaker 5 (21:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
So, and the short answer is, and this gets a
bit complex, but I'll just lay it out. So, registered
in New Zealand, registered psychotherapists, clinical psychologists, psychiatrists and GPS
can diagnose ADHD right, and of us are allowed to
do that. The reason why I often say go to
a psychiatrist first is because they're the only one that
(21:46):
can prescribe the specialized medication that can be given to
people who may want to look at that as a treatment.
I can't prescribe, psychologists can't prescribe, and GPS can't do
the first prescription for things like Brittlin and the other
medications because of their legal status.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
They just go straight for the.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Go straight to the specialist if you can.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
If you can one of I guess afford it hard
under the public system. And yeah, and then health insurance, oh,
health insurance.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
I guess most health insurance place to a psychiatrist consultation.
A yeah, so yep, that's definitely an option, and in
fact it's actually one of the things that a lot
of advocates have been looking at in this area is
actually starting to push for GPS to be able to
do this because we have a we have a treatment
bottleneck in the country right now because there aren't enough psychiatrists.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
So yeah, enough, it feels like there's not enough of
pretty much everything at the moment. But anyway, we're just
a little weak country.
Speaker 5 (22:37):
We are.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Yeah, let's get over ourselves. Okay, it's good of the call,
Ray high.
Speaker 7 (22:44):
God, they guys. How's it going?
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Pretty good?
Speaker 7 (22:47):
I thought i'd give you a call because I took
notes of you saying the whole why would you get diagnosed?
And I'm forty six. I think I've got all the
some sorts of could indicate I possibly have an ability
to concentrate and focus on one thing. Actually, as I'm
talking to you, I'm trying. I'm back of the car
(23:08):
and bring the dog and sign and do through things
at once, and like to your point, I guess I
never you know, I would have been a teenager in
the nineties, back before a HD was really commonly diagnosed,
and as I grew into adulthood, even though I found
it hard, even though I find it hard to concentrate
(23:29):
on one thing for a long period of time. I've
just got used to it and have never been formally
diagnosed nor take any medication for it. So I just
thought about your point, which was like, why would you
bother getting diagnosed? And I guess I'm going to stage
in my life now where I'm like, why would I
bother doing it?
Speaker 4 (23:46):
The point of it, Yeah, it doesn't feel like it
would add much to your life to find out officially
that was the case for you.
Speaker 7 (23:53):
Well, you know, it's with with work, it can be.
I'm very I'm very aware that I have a short
attention span, and I'm very aware that I do find
it quite hard to sit down and focus and for example,
get reports done in a timely fashion. But I'm conscious
(24:14):
of that, so I can It's a very late to
be aware of that, and you know, made myself sit
down more regularly to do a lot of bit of
work each time.
Speaker 4 (24:23):
M Yeah, And I guess what I'm hearing largely too,
is just a really high level of acceptance around yourself.
This this is who you are, and this is how
you are. And you found lots of ways to just
like we all do, manage being ourselves over the years.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Because it doesn't sound like it's.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Causing your problem in a way you sort of just know.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Would that be a fair, fair question observation?
Speaker 7 (24:46):
Yeah, i'd say i'd I think people at work typically
say I'm quirky, and what there specifically means is I
probably speak my mind really quickly, and that's not a
bad thing.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
I don't.
Speaker 7 (25:02):
I don't say inappropriate things, but I probably do say
than which are a little bit out of left field
on a regular basis.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Are you quite blunt? You're not diplomatic either, just a question.
Speaker 7 (25:13):
I can be diplomatic, absolutely, but like I'm very conscious
of what my mouth might just blurt out. So yeah,
but I think it's like one of those things where
you know, I just think, well, what would be the
advantage or be the point of being diagnosed? Would medication
make me any happier and not proably wouldn't? Would it
(25:38):
make me more effective in my job? Yeah, it probably would,
but I don't. I guess I go back to in
the nineties, like adhd As, I understand this wasn't commonly diagnosed,
and then buzz.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
Wasn't commonly It wasn't commonly diagnosed, but I guess, you know,
like we were talking about at the top of the air,
that doesn't mean that lots of people didn't experience it.
And also, and I think it's thank you for the call.
It's it's a great call and a great point.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Thanks.
Speaker 4 (26:04):
Thanks, Because it's also true, is that a lot of
people therefore learned to manage who they were and how
they were in the absence of a diagnosis, because that's
what people do.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Yeah, hey, thanks for your call.
Speaker 5 (26:14):
Ray.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
By the way, just being a poor listener and interrupting
all the time says that I guess accused of that.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Sometimes I talk aback surely not surely.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Well, trust me when I interrupt, I know I'm doing
it usually anyway. But anyway, hey, look at keep the
calls coming, and we've got lots of fascinating texts.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
We're talking about.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Adult adult ADHD and neurodiversity. We'll be back in just
a moment. This is a Health Hub on News Talks
to be with Carl McDonald. I'm Tim Beverage. Back in
attack and welcome back to the Weekend Collective. This is
the Health Hub. My guest is Carl McDonald, Tom at ADHD.
Let's get back into the.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Calls Marshall, Hi, Hi, how are you good? Thanks excellent.
Speaker 8 (26:52):
I just heard you speaking before about online assessments on
a online assessmant company that were taking globally and I
thought you might have some questions around how that all works.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Umm, well, I guess so are you looking for a
free and in fortorial or something?
Speaker 3 (27:07):
If I'm going to put on my cynicle hat.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
But no, Well, maybe I can ask you a question,
which is for people listening out there, what do you
see the role of an online sort of question or
assessment when it comes to starting a journey of diagnosis
or figuring yourself out.
Speaker 8 (27:25):
Oh, look at very much what you were talking about before,
which is actually around collecting information from people so that
they can then go and share that with their mental
health professional.
Speaker 6 (27:33):
Right.
Speaker 8 (27:34):
So, a lot of mental health professionals are very time pressed,
and for many if you're talking about general practitioners, they've
got ten or fifteen minutes to try and answer ask
a whole bunch of questions. And it's a very time
lissen period of time to ask questions around not just
suppression and anxiety and PTSD and ADHD, in a whole
bunch of conditions. So having a solution that they someone
(27:57):
can answer all the questions themselves and then share that
information for their mental professional that gives them more information
so that they can make more to the accurate and
diagnoses and better inform treatment decisions.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
I do like the sound of that, I mean, because
I guess you know as a clinician myself. The flip
side of that, of course, is then you have to
then meet the person and have an experience of them
to figure out what's going on. But what you're saying
is they can get the paperwork done first and then
that leads more time for the conversations.
Speaker 8 (28:24):
And we're really very clear that we're not a diagnostic tool.
We're an assessment tool, and we say the beginning of
the assessment, at the end of the assessment that once
you've got your report, you'll loft your report, then you
should actually then go and take that and share that
with your practitioner.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
So just so I can understand it, So people go
through a questionnaire, assessment or whatever. So who looks at
that data? Is there some sort of human is there
some sort of a human assessment or is it simply
this earns you two points on the scale.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Then you've got another four points.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
From this question and then bingo, go and see someone
or what I'm being cynical, sorry Marshall, but I think
I need to get it.
Speaker 8 (29:05):
No. Look, so most assessments around the world are what
we call single disorder assessments, but just the depression. We're
just for anxiety, just to drag and alcohol use, and
so they don't ever look at the whole picture. So
we actually assess the over thirty two different conditions and
it then gives a big picture overview for everyone, for
(29:27):
the practitioner that they're sharing it with, so that they
can start to see the comorbidity between different conditions.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
So you're sharing it with who are you sharing with? Sorry?
Speaker 8 (29:35):
So an individual go online and use a solution and
then they choose to share it with who they like.
So they can choose to share it with a psychologist,
a psychiatrist, a general practitioner, anyone that's on our platform
as a practitioner can get access to those reports, or
if that practitioners not on the platform, they can simply
print out the report and take it to their professional.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
So this is not something where punters just go are
going to check myself out. I'll go to a Lofty
and check it out.
Speaker 8 (30:04):
No, we want people to seek It's all about starting
the journey. So if you look at employee assistance programs,
for example, they have about a five to ten percent
utilization rate because people are too scared to pick up
the phone and speak to you know, because of the
stigma to speak to a person. So we actually we've
used Lofty within a number of work based and we
(30:25):
have over fifty percent utilization because people are far more
comfortable to start the mental health journey by simply going
on line answering some questions and then they get reported
and they choose what to do with it at that point.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Okay, so cool.
Speaker 8 (30:37):
We're really lowering that barrier to entry for people to
get started on their mental health journey and start empowering
them to start with you know, getting help.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
Yeah, hey, good, great, Thanks thanks very much for letting
us getting us how about it?
Speaker 5 (30:52):
Does?
Speaker 4 (30:52):
It does sound like a pretty good option, and I
mean I completely agree that that is the way that
we should be using these tools. It's a way to
get people started on the journey and then they can
go along and talk to their health professional further. So
thanks for the us know about lofty.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah, cheers, Thanks for much for your call, Marshall.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Let's go to another call. Andrew, Hi, Hi, I.
Speaker 6 (31:14):
Just got okay, probably two or three questions. One is,
can you actually develop ADHD and later later in life
or you might have it when you're young and time. Yeah, exactly,
that's what That's the first question.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
Okay. So the short answer is no, but it can
work in the way that you described in your second
part of your question, which is some people find that
overtime their symptoms lesson because they learn different skills and
ways of managing even in the absence of any official diagnosis.
It does because of the nature of the disorder, and
(31:58):
you know, any of the what we now sort of
are coming to understand is neurotypical neuroine typical disorders. It
is about how the brain is actually wired. So what
we as we understand them, it's actually the way a
person is born. And so one of the diagnostic I
guess checks for people when they come and look at
(32:19):
as an adult do I have ADHD is looking at
their academic record, looking at how they dealt with school,
which doesn't mean failing, but it might mean that very
you know, you see in their history and in their
education history, difficulties with the tension and focus and maybe
difficulties with schoolworks.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
So okay, one more question there and one more question
moving on to the next course.
Speaker 6 (32:41):
One more one more is how you ascertain Okay, I
think it's more direct. Is there a crossover between someone
that might be dyslexic and have ADHD or do you
find a lot of people with dyslexia have ADHD And
(33:02):
I guess from an employment perspective, do you deal with
the whole thing? There's a sad question.
Speaker 4 (33:09):
It's a really great question. Thank you so much for
the question. In terms of dyslexia and other learning disorders, Yes,
there's a huge crossover. So when we talk about you
know this this I guess for a lot of people,
this new idea of neurodiversity, which is that our brains
are wide in particular ways neurotypical versus neurodiverse. We're talking
(33:29):
about autism spectrum disorder, we're talking about ADHD, and often
we're talking about visiospatial learners, dyslexia, dyspraxia, and various other
kind of very specific learning disorders. And there is quite
a high incidence of both occurring together. And it's not general.
It's genuinely not because people struggle to pay attention and learn.
It's because there are actually of other learning difficulties occurring.
(33:51):
And so what tends to happen is if you take
a kid along, and this is not my area of speciality,
if you get your kid assessed, they'll tend to assess
to all of these things because they recognize that if
there's a difficulty there, sometimes there's other things going on
as well.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
Okay, thanks for you call, Andrew.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
We'll take a moment just to come back to wrap
it up. I've got a few texts we might try
and dig into as well as welcome back to the show.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
This is the Health Hub. A few texts.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
I'm with comic Donnald talking about ADHD as adults.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
First question, very short one.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Can you explain the difference between ADD and ADHD?
Speaker 4 (34:22):
I can so. ADD Attention deficit disorder is the old
term for ADHD. ADHD Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder is the
more modern diagnosis. They recognize the central role of hyperactivity. However,
having said that, there is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder in
(34:42):
attentive type, so some people will find that they're much
more on the unfocused attention end and much less on
the hyperactivity which is more common with females. The presentation
with adult women can often be quite different. And so
we're sort of just sort of learning a lot about
that now, and seems to be that generally speaking, women
are less on the hyperactive end and a better at
(35:03):
masking some of the symptoms because you know, generally women
are expected to be more sociable and more sort of
you know, able to deal with social situations, so they
tend to learn that.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
Just on that.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
The multitasking thing that women can multitask better than men
is that.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
Just when you actually look at it at a brain level,
no one can multitask. We're always doing one thing or
the other.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Ah okay, So are they better at switching from one
task the other and remember what they have to go
back to?
Speaker 4 (35:28):
I think some women would say they are.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Very diplomatic iprob well done, he's a psychotherapist and diplomatic phaps.
You should send you to Switzerland to hang out with
mart God, did you see the resort that Martin Mitchell
has gone to for that?
Speaker 4 (35:41):
Switzerlandson is a pretty cool country.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
American stock, it looks that looks pretty Actually, just one
quick one. What's what comes first? This text to us
lee anxiety or attention deficit? I guess it's what's the relationship?
Speaker 4 (35:55):
Well, anxiety is often a symptom of so people talk
about their ADHD anxiety because the inattention and the restlessness
and the irritability is often present answers anxiety, and so
it's whenever people are experiencing anxiety, it's a great question
to ask when we're starting to look at try to
tease that apart.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Okay, just a couple of minutes ago, let's just wrap
it up. I guess the way that we began it
because ADHD it's the.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Topic, dajure.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
But what would be your general advice to people who
are concerned about whether they've got something or whatever?
Speaker 4 (36:28):
So I mean, I guess the first thing is, like
we've talked about, you might see yourself in that diagnosis,
but that doesn't mean that it's a problem. It might,
in fact be something that's been very helpful for you
over your life, and you may have developed lots of skills.
So ask yourself why you would want to seek a diagnosis,
and will that be helpful to you, and if you do,
make sure that you go to a specialist. Ideally start
with a psychiatrist if you can find one and afford it,
(36:50):
but also having a chat with your GP is fine,
or a psychologist who works in the area. And the
ADHD dot nz website's an excellent resource for anyone who
has any questions about this. Also often just for people
out there listening, if you've had a kid that's recently
diagnosed and you're wondering yourself. It's genetic, so it quite
has a strong genetic component, so it's quite common for
adults to discover it after one of their children's being diagnosed.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
But don't panic. Don't panic.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
It's entirely treatable. There are medication options, and if you've
gotten to your adulthood without needing a diagnosis, you're probably
doing fine anyway.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Now, look, I dare say if you really want to
talk to Kyle further about it, I mean the Nutters Club.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
Is Yeah, we're on tonight from eleven pm to one am,
or feel free to jump online and check out my
website which is just psychotherapy dot in z.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
God you must have got earlier and early for that one.
Psychotherapy dot z I was quick out of the block.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Excellent.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Hey, thanks so much for your time, Carl Correat even
the studio as always, and don't forget the miss out.
I don't forget to check out the Nuttters Club as
well tonight.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk zed be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks edby.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome back to the Weekend Collective. We're taking your calls now.
This is the Health Hub on eight hundred and eighty
ten eighty. You can text me on nine two nine two.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Actually, don't worry about the email. It's texts or.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Calls, okay, eight hundred eighteen eighty text nine two nine two.
And also, if you miss any of the hours, as
I always like to remind people, go and check out
our podcast which will be up shortly after the show,
and that will contain anything you've missed.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
And that's at iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Look for the Weekend Collective right now though, it is
time for the Health Hub and joining me is I
needs no introduction. That's Carl McDonald. But let's you are
a psych psychologist. Psychotherapist? Is that another word we can
use to describe your Carl?
Speaker 4 (00:51):
And good afternoon, Yeah, thank you, good afternoon. You know
I am a psychotherapist, not a psychologist.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Oh I got it round the wrong way.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Sorry, that's fine, that's mine, that's my fault.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
We are slightly different things.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Yes, and we're going to talk about Look, Adhd.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Has been in the news actually first was thrown in
by Tory Fado, but recently our own friend and sports
talkback host Darcy Watergrave has had a chat in the
New Zealand Herald and talked about has ADHD diagnosis and
as adults it's sort of the topic djure at the moment,
(01:25):
I've got a really I'm not sure if I've.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Got a really dumb question.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Oh I love dumb questions, because I guess if ADHD
is something that is aside from the normal, what's normal?
Speaker 4 (01:39):
Yeah, well, I mean I think that's a great question.
Actually is not a dumb question. It's a good place
to start because actually, even with ADHD, it's everything that
you can see in all of the different behavioral difficulties
and all of the sort of neurodiverse ranges are all
things that exist on a spectrum. Right, So whether it's
ADHD or even depression for that matter, everything is just
(02:01):
on a spectrum. This is this old, this old phenomena
with psych students and psychiatry students where you sort of
get the first copy of the DSM five we're up
to now, which is the diagnostic Manual for psychiatry, and
you read through it and you discover that all of
a sudden you've got ten disorders yourself that you didn't know.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
You had because what had readon go oh my god.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Yeah, because what happens is you see yourself in these
diagnoses because they describe aspects of human nature. Now, the
trick with diagnosis, and we're starting to understand we stick
to ADHD, is that lots of people can see themselves
in that diagnosis, which is primarily around difficult inattention, so
(02:41):
difficulty with attention, hyperactivity or more sort of restlessness and
adults disruptive behaviors and impulsivity. Right, we can probably will
see ourselves in different ways in that. But the trick
is it's only a problem if it's a problem, which
is to say, does it actually prevent you from doing
things in your life like working or having productive relationships?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
So yeah, I can imagine probably the last thing any
layperson should do is to read that what is it,
the manual diagnostic manual?
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Yeah? Is it a big read. It's like a pH
phone book.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
If people remember what a phone book.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Was, do you actually read the whole thing?
Speaker 4 (03:19):
We have to familiarize yourself with its Yeah, But the
point is recognizing that actually every single one of those
category has basically has a proviso which said, this has
only a problem if it's a problem.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Is that the danger we're out at the oh danger, look,
I'm gonna use I'd probably use hyperbolic words sometimes from yeah,
but I get no, no, let's let's go with it.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Is that the sort of the.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Problem that we've got at the moment there we go.
That's better is that there's a bit of a zeitgeist
going around that such and such as on the spectrum,
or such and such as neurodiverse and or has got ADHD.
And of course I think that that Darcy is talking
about his ADHD is incredibly positive thing. And I love
hearing stories about people who are you, who are successful
(04:07):
in doing well while they are living with a particular
But now it's become the zeitgeist that everyone's we're all
navel gazing.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Are we in danger of navel.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Gazing ourselves into a sort of into considering into creating
a problem for ourselves where we don't need to. I'm
trying to find a way of you know what I mean?
Are we all getting so preoccupied we all think we're crazy.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
Well, if we take neurodiverse, and I.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Say crazy in a lighthearted sense.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
On a judgment, I take your meaning. I mean, I
think it's a question that should be asked because there's
always a risk that once something becomes well looked at
or sort of, you know, quite popular. You know, there's
a lot of TikTok videos and online conversations of people
talking about their diagnosis of ADHD, so people get very
worried about this. Just to step back for a moment,
(04:58):
you know, when we look at how many people were
left handed in the nineteen fifties, it was an incredibly
small number. Why because if you picked up a pen
with your left hand in high school, you got whacked
on the knuckles by the teacher and trained to write
with your right hand. So what we see if you
graph the number of people who would describe themselves as
left handed from the nineteen fifties to now is a
(05:19):
really steep curve. And people could look at that and go,
what's behind this sudden surge of right and left handedness splitting. Well, actually,
it's people just being allowed to express themselves who they
are naturally terrible. Now, if we approach neurodiversity, people on
the spectrum and Adhd similarly. Then what we see is
that actually, if we go wind back the clock to
before we had a good understanding of these things, boys
(05:41):
who were restless and couldn't fidget it in class and
couldn't pay attention, particularly in old school education where you
were literally required to sit at your desk for two
hours and right, which is not something that suits everybody,
were labeled dumb, they were labeled disruptive, they were suspended.
They were probably pushed away from academic subjects and towards
other things that were considered appropriate for people that were
a bit thick. What we now know is that actually
(06:04):
a lot of the traditional model of education that you know,
probably you or I experienced actually just doesn't suit the
way some people's brains are wired. And the question then
we have to ask, is the problem in the individual
or is the problem and how we expect people to
fit into a very narrow band of what we consider
normal education.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Actually it's interesting without mentioning names. When I was courting
my wife, I guess he used to travel down to
christ Church and she's a primary school. She specializes with
special needs kids. But when I met her, she was
a that was a strong interest of hers, and I
went into a class and she was reading to the
class one day and there was a young boy and
(06:44):
of course I'm not going to say who it was.
His great, amazing kid, incredibly talented, but there was a child,
and that we're talking about five year olds, six year olds,
and he was wandering around the back of the class,
picking things up and looking at them and examining them
and every now and again, and once I think he
called out to my wife, Miss tippin such and such
a just went not.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
She just said, I'll talk to you later about that.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
And I looked at her, like, what's going on. You've
got somebody who're not paying attention, and she just waved
me away, like don't worry, I've got this. And of
course she had worked out that he just had different
needs and it wasn't a problem because she was managing it.
And actually he's an awesome kid. I got to know him,
you got to know him a little bit, and I
really that's in the old days, that kid would have
(07:30):
been to the principal's office or something told off, and
instead he just just.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
It's one of the interesting outcomes of ADHD when we
start to talk to people who are adults now who
are receiving a diagnosis, is that actually what's hard to
separate out is how much is the different way that
a person's brain is wired, right, because that's the facts
of someone who experiences ADHD, versus how much is it
(07:56):
a consequence? How much is their difficulty as a consequence
of the numbers of negative interactions they had through education.
So some studies have estimated that if you have ADHD
and you went through a traditional schooling system, you received
about five to ten thousand more negative or critical interactions
than someone who didn't. So you can imagine the impact
(08:16):
that has on people over the course of the child,
potentially devastating, I guess absolutely. And so what we see
as we see that often people come to this in
adulthood and really sort of start to think about, well,
maybe there isn't something wrong with me. Maybe I'm just different,
and maybe I just need to approach the world in
a different way, which may include things like medication or
therapy to learn some different skills. But for some people
it's actually just validating to understand that that's what's going
(08:39):
on for them.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Well, so what would be a flag for someone to
have a look at whether maybe they should get a diagnosis.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Yeah, so the classics sort of behavioral science, it tends
to be more what other people notice will be more
the hyperactivity, people who are restless, who are constantly jiggling,
people who are jiggling their their feet, or particularly fidgety
or restless when they're trying to sit still. One of
the other things, which seems a bit contradictory is an
over focus, so sometimes as an inattention, like an ability
(09:12):
to sort of sit down and do one thing at
a time, but also sometimes are over focused, so you know,
we'll get locked into a particular project or assignment at
the exclusion of everything else and eating and drinking and
talking to anybody else.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
But I think the.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Main thing is is is it causing and has it
caused problems in your life when it comes to employment
or education of actually feeling subjectively like it's difficult to
pay attention and focus in ways that other people seem
to find very easy. What people talk about often is
a brain fog.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
I guess the thing is because we get caught up
in our own we get used to ourselves, and so
we get we normalize a lot of the time our
own behavior where other people might I don't know. If
I ask someone about me, people will be like, oh, yeah,
have you not noticed that quirk you've got and be like, no,
what's that?
Speaker 3 (09:57):
And so do you listen to outside? I mean.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
It's almost asking for a lay diagnosis. But I mean, yeah,
so again I get back to that question, how would
you know when you might think that everything you're doing
is normal?
Speaker 4 (10:13):
Yeah, well, I mean I think that people who really
struggle with this know that subjectively they struggle, you know,
so you would know. So lots of noise in the brain,
difficulty paying attention, easily distracted. You know, what people talk
about is having a thousand tabs open on their browser
and not being able to follow things through. And that
(10:34):
hyperactivity elements really important and one of the things that
we often see in the context of adult diagnosed This
also as often as a high degree of substance abuse,
because people often find some relief from the internal noise
and the hyperactivity and the restlessness in drugs like alcohol
and cannabis.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
It's that because it calms them down and sort of
just slows down some of that extra activity.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
That's yeah, yeah, some people do find that And interestingly,
also methamphetamine, which is a powerful stimulant which is very
chemically similar to actually medications that people have probably heard of,
like Rittline that are often prescribed for ADHD. Often people
find that their use of stimulant drugs illicitly is explainable
in the context of ADHD and is one of the
(11:17):
really interesting quirks of ADHD. So one of the diagnostic
tests often if you see a psychiatrist and you get
prescribed medication, is they will give you a trial of
one of the Brittlin type medications, the stimulants, and if
people have ADHD, then they actually paradoxically, it's called a
paradoxical effect. They find that the stimulant medications actually calm
them down and help them focus. Whereas if you or
(11:39):
I able to take a medication like that, we feel
like we'd have six coffees and be really uncomfortable because
we'd be very stimulated chemically. So what happens in the
brain is that for people who have ADHD, the hyperactive
behavior is actually at an attempt to feel comfortable, to
stimulate our attention up to a level which is comfortable.
Their medication then achieves the same thing and brings our
(12:02):
resting level of stimulation up, which paradoxically enables people with
ADHD to focus and relax.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Wow, actually I've started watching I'm not sure I've started
watching Breaking Bad again, but there's just the scene.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
Where some fantastics here.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Oh my goodness, I forgot how good it was that.
I thought My memory was that it's slow to develop,
but the first first. But they it shows someone using
meth and the instant relief, and I must have met
part of me was wondering what on earth happens when
(12:36):
they're getting that hit. I know we don't want to
get into drug addiction right now necessarily, but funny that
it's It's also the reason that I would never ever
try anything, because I would be worried that I might
go jeepers.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Might try that again tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Is that how addiction starts or is it a physical
addiction with that stuff?
Speaker 3 (12:55):
I think, just by the.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
Bye, I think that's a little bit Hollywood. But what
is true is that everybody who ends up dependent on
substances does it because it achieve something positive for them
in a way, like the consequences will of course end
up being negative, and there is always a negative outcome
with dependence, But the initial experiences is often one of relief.
(13:17):
And you can imagine if it's very difficult to relax,
if you're constantly feeling agitated and restless, that actually discovering
something that makes you feel a bit better is quite
a relief for people. So again, when we think about adults,
it's often a bit of a red flag if they
have that history.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Okay, look we'd like to take your cause on this
on eight hundred eighty ten eighty. You can text on
nine to two nine two if you've got any questions
for Kyley's a psychotherapist. And look, we're not going to
do any in depth diagnosis obviously, but if you want
to steer on something, or you've got someone you're concerned about,
or you're worried, you're thinking, hang on, this is the
way I've been all my life. And I've got a
(13:53):
couple of questions for Kyle about this, we'd love to
hear from you. And also if you have actually has
an adult been recently diagnosed with ADHD, how much of
a relief was that for you? What was what was
the effect on your life? All the questions around that,
You've got any questions for Kyl McDonald, we'd love to
hear from you and welcome back to the Health Hub.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Kyle McDonald's.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I guess we're talking about ADHD and adult ADHD in particular,
and taking your calls if you'd like some advice, give
us the benefit of your experience or whatever.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Oh eight eighty. That's very nice and open, very open anyway, right,
let's crag on David.
Speaker 5 (14:33):
Hi, Yeah, good. I was just wondering if I would
be diagnosed with ADHD. I'm seventy one though, so I
was and what should I run through a brief list
of all my Well, you can, if you can.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
If you like.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
But I mean I wouldn't be in a position to
sort of offer you an opinion over the radio. I
don't feel like that would be it would be appropriate.
But I guess what I would say is that age
is no limitation. So you know, I've heard of people
getting diagnosed in their sixty seventies and eighties recently, and
I think the question to ask yourself is is you know,
would would receiving a diagnosis be useful for you? And
(15:17):
you know in that sense, would it help you understand
something about yourself or help your solve problems that you
may have struggled with in your life, in which case,
starting with your GP or checking out the website adhd
Ort and z the little list of people on there
that will be able to provide a diagnosis as a
great place.
Speaker 5 (15:37):
The GP would be a good starting point.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
A yeah, absolutely, I mean ideally, and I say ideally
because we do have a shortage in New Zealand, so
it can be hard to get in to see someone.
But seeing an experienced psychiatrist is the sort of the
best place to go for an official diagnosis because they
can also talk with you about whether any of the
medication options may be effective. But you don't have to
(16:01):
take medication. It's only one of the treatment options. But
that's why it's generally a good place to stay.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
David, is there anything that made you call up in
terms of what you noticed about yourself?
Speaker 5 (16:11):
Well? Yeah, for a start, I never did any good
at school, monun of the class every time, didn't pass
any school third exams when that was what you had
to pass, and can't sort of concentrate, couldn't read books.
Still can't read books, so you know, apart from maybe
one every three years, because I can't concentrate on, you know,
(16:34):
for more than a page or something, and they have
to go can reread every bloody thing. And the other
thing is that I find the only time I can
sort of relax and not worry about things and not
have to think forty five thousand things at once, and
(16:56):
am able to concentrate on anything when I'm having a
couple of beers, which is all I had these days, anyway,
of cans of beer, or I walk for two and
a half three hours every day, and I find that
then I don't have to worry. I just don't worry
about anything, right, And so that'll be my main concerned
(17:21):
I suppose.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
I mean, certainly there's enough data points there. I think
it's worth asking the question. But you also raise a
really important positive skill, which is exercise. I know lots
of people who experience ADHD. You find a lot of
relief and intense physical exercise, whatever that means for you.
So you know, good two hour walk, that's a that's
a good workout.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Good on you, yep, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (17:44):
And I in my younger days, I used to run
to three hours, not two three hours. But I used
to run every day, but I now I walk two
or three hours every day, and I find, you know,
I guess from what I've heard about meditation, that must
be as close as I get to meditation because I
don't have to I don't think about anything, and I'm
(18:05):
I don't worry about anything. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
Great, So it's a great, great plan, and good on
you for keeping it up.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
But unfortunately the alcohol has been the other sort of
clus on which I've leant.
Speaker 4 (18:20):
Yeah, fair enough with a couple of cans a day,
isn't isn't big intake it? Certainly, you know, as they say,
no alcohol is better than any alcohol, but actually that's
pretty moderate use. But certainly, you know, check out that
website and actually, for everyone out there listening if they
want to learn more about this area, that ADHD dot
org dot z a great website. It's the Attention Deficit
(18:40):
High Peractivity Disorder New Zealand organization and they've got lots
of great information on there for kids, adults, and also
lists of clinicians who specialize in this area here in
New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Yeah, I'm just googling that right now. Now what about
these just before we go to our I'll call us.
I've got some text here. What about those quiz You know,
there's questionnaires on line where you can go through to
find it.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Again, are those any good?
Speaker 6 (19:10):
Are they?
Speaker 3 (19:11):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I'm a bit cynical about them, because, as you mentioned,
you'll recognize just human traits that we all have to
some degree or other.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
Look, I mean subjectivity is always the problem, right, It's
very difficult for anyone to be completely subjective for themselves.
But if you do find yourself really strongly identifying with them,
it can be a pointer. It doesn't mean you have
it right, but it can be a pointer to take
the next step, which is ideally to talk to a
trained medical professional or a psychotherapist or psychologist about whether
(19:39):
it's worth investigating further. And again the golden rule, it's
only a problem if it's a problem.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Okay, right, let's have a look at a few of
the texts here. Text re ADHD versus anxiety anxiety. This
only happens to me when they are in negative people
around me. I can't shake their vibe, causing me sometimes
chaos when people's negativity just rubs off on you and
(20:04):
you can escape it.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
Yeah, anxiety. Anxiety certainly can be a bit infectious, but
also I mean, I guess the thing is with ADHD
again is when you're thinking about this, particularly in your
own context, it has to be consistent. It's not something
that you wake up and it goes away. It's a
consistent experience of oneself where often anxiety comes and goes
in a way that's quite different to attention difficulties.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Actually mentioned exercise.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Well, actually, by the way, anyone, if you feel like
getting some exercises, as long as you monitor, you don't
go suddenly trying to sprint a marathon when you've been
eating McDonald's three times a day into last year or so.
But I mean just getting out and it's just worth
reminding people that exercise is great.
Speaker 4 (20:43):
Oh look, absolutely, And I actually think when we think
about people who we might have in the past sort
of thought of as technical language subclinical, so people who
are a bit wired this way but don't actually it
doesn't cause problems in their life. What you often find
is people who are engaged in intense physical work, like
you know, builders, laborers, sports people often are wired to
(21:05):
be quite you know, need a high level of stimulation
to actually help them focus, which makes sense in the
context of doing those kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Hey, Kate says, does adoctor diagnose ADHD and also manic depressive?
It's a problem, I will see my GP. I don't
want a trendy diagnosis.
Speaker 5 (21:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
So, and the short answer is, and this gets a
bit complex, but I'll just lay it out. So, registered
in New Zealand, registered psychotherapists, clinical psychologists, psychiatrists and GPS
can diagnose ADHD right, and of us are allowed to
do that. The reason why I often say go to
a psychiatrist first is because they're the only one that
(21:46):
can prescribe the specialized medication that can be given to
people who may want to look at that as a treatment.
I can't prescribe, psychologists can't prescribe, and GPS can't do
the first prescription for things like Brittlin and the other
medications because of their legal status.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
They just go straight for the.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Go straight to the specialist if you can.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
If you can one of I guess afford it hard
under the public system. And yeah, and then health insurance, oh,
health insurance.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
I guess most health insurance place to a psychiatrist consultation.
A yeah, so yep, that's definitely an option, and in
fact it's actually one of the things that a lot
of advocates have been looking at in this area is
actually starting to push for GPS to be able to
do this because we have a we have a treatment
bottleneck in the country right now because there aren't enough psychiatrists.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
So yeah, enough, it feels like there's not enough of
pretty much everything at the moment. But anyway, we're just
a little weak country.
Speaker 5 (22:37):
We are.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Yeah, let's get over ourselves. Okay, it's good of the call,
Ray high.
Speaker 7 (22:44):
God, they guys. How's it going?
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Pretty good?
Speaker 7 (22:47):
I thought i'd give you a call because I took
notes of you saying the whole why would you get diagnosed?
And I'm forty six. I think I've got all the
some sorts of could indicate I possibly have an ability
to concentrate and focus on one thing. Actually, as I'm
talking to you, I'm trying. I'm back of the car
(23:08):
and bring the dog and sign and do through things
at once, and like to your point, I guess I
never you know, I would have been a teenager in
the nineties, back before a HD was really commonly diagnosed,
and as I grew into adulthood, even though I found
it hard, even though I find it hard to concentrate
(23:29):
on one thing for a long period of time. I've
just got used to it and have never been formally
diagnosed nor take any medication for it. So I just
thought about your point, which was like, why would you
bother getting diagnosed? And I guess I'm going to stage
in my life now where I'm like, why would I
bother doing it?
Speaker 4 (23:46):
The point of it, Yeah, it doesn't feel like it
would add much to your life to find out officially
that was the case for you.
Speaker 7 (23:53):
Well, you know, it's with with work, it can be.
I'm very I'm very aware that I have a short
attention span, and I'm very aware that I do find
it quite hard to sit down and focus and for example,
get reports done in a timely fashion. But I'm conscious
(24:14):
of that, so I can It's a very late to
be aware of that, and you know, made myself sit
down more regularly to do a lot of bit of
work each time.
Speaker 4 (24:23):
M Yeah, And I guess what I'm hearing largely too,
is just a really high level of acceptance around yourself.
This this is who you are, and this is how
you are. And you found lots of ways to just
like we all do, manage being ourselves over the years.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Because it doesn't sound like it's.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Causing your problem in a way you sort of just know.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Would that be a fair, fair question observation?
Speaker 7 (24:46):
Yeah, i'd say i'd I think people at work typically
say I'm quirky, and what there specifically means is I
probably speak my mind really quickly, and that's not a
bad thing.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
I don't.
Speaker 7 (25:02):
I don't say inappropriate things, but I probably do say
than which are a little bit out of left field
on a regular basis.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Are you quite blunt? You're not diplomatic either, just a question.
Speaker 7 (25:13):
I can be diplomatic, absolutely, but like I'm very conscious
of what my mouth might just blurt out. So yeah,
but I think it's like one of those things where
you know, I just think, well, what would be the
advantage or be the point of being diagnosed? Would medication
make me any happier and not proably wouldn't? Would it
(25:38):
make me more effective in my job? Yeah, it probably would,
but I don't. I guess I go back to in
the nineties, like adhd As, I understand this wasn't commonly diagnosed,
and then buzz.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
Wasn't commonly It wasn't commonly diagnosed, but I guess, you know,
like we were talking about at the top of the air,
that doesn't mean that lots of people didn't experience it.
And also, and I think it's thank you for the call.
It's it's a great call and a great point.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Thanks.
Speaker 4 (26:04):
Thanks, Because it's also true, is that a lot of
people therefore learned to manage who they were and how
they were in the absence of a diagnosis, because that's
what people do.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Yeah, hey, thanks for your call.
Speaker 5 (26:14):
Ray.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
By the way, just being a poor listener and interrupting
all the time says that I guess accused of that.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Sometimes I talk aback surely not surely.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Well, trust me when I interrupt, I know I'm doing
it usually anyway. But anyway, hey, look at keep the
calls coming, and we've got lots of fascinating texts.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
We're talking about.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Adult adult ADHD and neurodiversity. We'll be back in just
a moment. This is a Health Hub on News Talks
to be with Carl McDonald. I'm Tim Beverage. Back in
attack and welcome back to the Weekend Collective. This is
the Health Hub. My guest is Carl McDonald, Tom at ADHD.
Let's get back into the.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Calls Marshall, Hi, Hi, how are you good? Thanks excellent.
Speaker 8 (26:52):
I just heard you speaking before about online assessments on
a online assessmant company that were taking globally and I
thought you might have some questions around how that all works.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Umm, well, I guess so are you looking for a
free and in fortorial or something?
Speaker 3 (27:07):
If I'm going to put on my cynicle hat.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
But no, Well, maybe I can ask you a question,
which is for people listening out there, what do you
see the role of an online sort of question or
assessment when it comes to starting a journey of diagnosis
or figuring yourself out.
Speaker 8 (27:25):
Oh, look at very much what you were talking about before,
which is actually around collecting information from people so that
they can then go and share that with their mental
health professional.
Speaker 6 (27:33):
Right.
Speaker 8 (27:34):
So, a lot of mental health professionals are very time pressed,
and for many if you're talking about general practitioners, they've
got ten or fifteen minutes to try and answer ask
a whole bunch of questions. And it's a very time
lissen period of time to ask questions around not just
suppression and anxiety and PTSD and ADHD, in a whole
bunch of conditions. So having a solution that they someone
(27:57):
can answer all the questions themselves and then share that
information for their mental professional that gives them more information
so that they can make more to the accurate and
diagnoses and better inform treatment decisions.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
I do like the sound of that, I mean, because
I guess you know as a clinician myself. The flip
side of that, of course, is then you have to
then meet the person and have an experience of them
to figure out what's going on. But what you're saying
is they can get the paperwork done first and then
that leads more time for the conversations.
Speaker 8 (28:24):
And we're really very clear that we're not a diagnostic tool.
We're an assessment tool, and we say the beginning of
the assessment, at the end of the assessment that once
you've got your report, you'll loft your report, then you
should actually then go and take that and share that
with your practitioner.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
So just so I can understand it, So people go
through a questionnaire, assessment or whatever. So who looks at
that data? Is there some sort of human is there
some sort of a human assessment or is it simply
this earns you two points on the scale.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Then you've got another four points.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
From this question and then bingo, go and see someone
or what I'm being cynical, sorry Marshall, but I think
I need to get it.
Speaker 8 (29:05):
No. Look, so most assessments around the world are what
we call single disorder assessments, but just the depression. We're
just for anxiety, just to drag and alcohol use, and
so they don't ever look at the whole picture. So
we actually assess the over thirty two different conditions and
it then gives a big picture overview for everyone, for
(29:27):
the practitioner that they're sharing it with, so that they
can start to see the comorbidity between different conditions.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
So you're sharing it with who are you sharing with? Sorry?
Speaker 8 (29:35):
So an individual go online and use a solution and
then they choose to share it with who they like.
So they can choose to share it with a psychologist,
a psychiatrist, a general practitioner, anyone that's on our platform
as a practitioner can get access to those reports, or
if that practitioners not on the platform, they can simply
print out the report and take it to their professional.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
So this is not something where punters just go are
going to check myself out. I'll go to a Lofty
and check it out.
Speaker 8 (30:04):
No, we want people to seek It's all about starting
the journey. So if you look at employee assistance programs,
for example, they have about a five to ten percent
utilization rate because people are too scared to pick up
the phone and speak to you know, because of the
stigma to speak to a person. So we actually we've
used Lofty within a number of work based and we
(30:25):
have over fifty percent utilization because people are far more
comfortable to start the mental health journey by simply going
on line answering some questions and then they get reported
and they choose what to do with it at that point.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Okay, so cool.
Speaker 8 (30:37):
We're really lowering that barrier to entry for people to
get started on their mental health journey and start empowering
them to start with you know, getting help.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
Yeah, hey, good, great, Thanks thanks very much for letting
us getting us how about it?
Speaker 5 (30:52):
Does?
Speaker 4 (30:52):
It does sound like a pretty good option, and I
mean I completely agree that that is the way that
we should be using these tools. It's a way to
get people started on the journey and then they can
go along and talk to their health professional further. So
thanks for the us know about lofty.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah, cheers, Thanks for much for your call, Marshall.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Let's go to another call. Andrew, Hi, Hi, I.
Speaker 6 (31:14):
Just got okay, probably two or three questions. One is,
can you actually develop ADHD and later later in life
or you might have it when you're young and time. Yeah, exactly,
that's what That's the first question.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
Okay. So the short answer is no, but it can
work in the way that you described in your second
part of your question, which is some people find that
overtime their symptoms lesson because they learn different skills and
ways of managing even in the absence of any official diagnosis.
It does because of the nature of the disorder, and
(31:58):
you know, any of the what we now sort of
are coming to understand is neurotypical neuroine typical disorders. It
is about how the brain is actually wired. So what
we as we understand them, it's actually the way a
person is born. And so one of the diagnostic I
guess checks for people when they come and look at
(32:19):
as an adult do I have ADHD is looking at
their academic record, looking at how they dealt with school,
which doesn't mean failing, but it might mean that very
you know, you see in their history and in their
education history, difficulties with the tension and focus and maybe
difficulties with schoolworks.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
So okay, one more question there and one more question
moving on to the next course.
Speaker 6 (32:41):
One more one more is how you ascertain Okay, I
think it's more direct. Is there a crossover between someone
that might be dyslexic and have ADHD or do you
find a lot of people with dyslexia have ADHD And
(33:02):
I guess from an employment perspective, do you deal with
the whole thing? There's a sad question.
Speaker 4 (33:09):
It's a really great question. Thank you so much for
the question. In terms of dyslexia and other learning disorders, Yes,
there's a huge crossover. So when we talk about you
know this this I guess for a lot of people,
this new idea of neurodiversity, which is that our brains
are wide in particular ways neurotypical versus neurodiverse. We're talking
(33:29):
about autism spectrum disorder, we're talking about ADHD, and often
we're talking about visiospatial learners, dyslexia, dyspraxia, and various other
kind of very specific learning disorders. And there is quite
a high incidence of both occurring together. And it's not general.
It's genuinely not because people struggle to pay attention and learn.
It's because there are actually of other learning difficulties occurring.
(33:51):
And so what tends to happen is if you take
a kid along, and this is not my area of speciality,
if you get your kid assessed, they'll tend to assess
to all of these things because they recognize that if
there's a difficulty there, sometimes there's other things going on
as well.
Speaker 3 (34:02):
Okay, thanks for you call, Andrew.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
We'll take a moment just to come back to wrap
it up. I've got a few texts we might try
and dig into as well as welcome back to the show.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
This is the Health Hub. A few texts.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
I'm with comic Donnald talking about ADHD as adults.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
First question, very short one.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Can you explain the difference between ADD and ADHD?
Speaker 4 (34:22):
I can so. ADD Attention deficit disorder is the old
term for ADHD. ADHD Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder is the
more modern diagnosis. They recognize the central role of hyperactivity. However,
having said that, there is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder in
(34:42):
attentive type, so some people will find that they're much
more on the unfocused attention end and much less on
the hyperactivity which is more common with females. The presentation
with adult women can often be quite different. And so
we're sort of just sort of learning a lot about
that now, and seems to be that generally speaking, women
are less on the hyperactive end and a better at
(35:03):
masking some of the symptoms because you know, generally women
are expected to be more sociable and more sort of
you know, able to deal with social situations, so they
tend to learn that.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
Just on that.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
The multitasking thing that women can multitask better than men
is that.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
Just when you actually look at it at a brain level,
no one can multitask. We're always doing one thing or
the other.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Ah okay, So are they better at switching from one
task the other and remember what they have to go
back to?
Speaker 4 (35:28):
I think some women would say they are.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Very diplomatic iprob well done, he's a psychotherapist and diplomatic phaps.
You should send you to Switzerland to hang out with
mart God, did you see the resort that Martin Mitchell
has gone to for that?
Speaker 4 (35:41):
Switzerlandson is a pretty cool country.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
American stock, it looks that looks pretty Actually, just one
quick one. What's what comes first? This text to us
lee anxiety or attention deficit? I guess it's what's the relationship?
Speaker 4 (35:55):
Well, anxiety is often a symptom of so people talk
about their ADHD anxiety because the inattention and the restlessness
and the irritability is often present answers anxiety, and so
it's whenever people are experiencing anxiety, it's a great question
to ask when we're starting to look at try to
tease that apart.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Okay, just a couple of minutes ago, let's just wrap
it up. I guess the way that we began it
because ADHD it's the.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Topic, dajure.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
But what would be your general advice to people who
are concerned about whether they've got something or whatever?
Speaker 4 (36:28):
So I mean, I guess the first thing is, like
we've talked about, you might see yourself in that diagnosis,
but that doesn't mean that it's a problem. It might,
in fact be something that's been very helpful for you
over your life, and you may have developed lots of skills.
So ask yourself why you would want to seek a diagnosis,
and will that be helpful to you, and if you do,
make sure that you go to a specialist. Ideally start
with a psychiatrist if you can find one and afford it,
(36:50):
but also having a chat with your GP is fine,
or a psychologist who works in the area. And the
ADHD dot nz website's an excellent resource for anyone who
has any questions about this. Also often just for people
out there listening, if you've had a kid that's recently
diagnosed and you're wondering yourself. It's genetic, so it quite
has a strong genetic component, so it's quite common for
adults to discover it after one of their children's being diagnosed.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
But don't panic. Don't panic.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
It's entirely treatable. There are medication options, and if you've
gotten to your adulthood without needing a diagnosis, you're probably
doing fine anyway.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Now, look, I dare say if you really want to
talk to Kyle further about it, I mean the Nutters Club.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
Is Yeah, we're on tonight from eleven pm to one am,
or feel free to jump online and check out my
website which is just psychotherapy dot in z.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
God you must have got earlier and early for that one.
Psychotherapy dot z I was quick out of the block.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
Excellent.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Hey, thanks so much for your time, Carl Correat even
the studio as always, and don't forget the miss out.
I don't forget to check out the Nuttters Club as
well tonight.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk zed be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
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