Leighton Smith Podcast #251 - August 14th 2024 - Professor Robert MacCulloch

Robert MacCulloch has a resume to be envied.

He began his tertiary education at the University of Auckland, continued it at London School of Economics and Princeton University,

He was Director of the PhD Program at Imperial College London. He has been awarded numerous prizes along the way, and returned to NZ twelve years ago.

He is Professor of Macroeconomics at Auckland University and publishes widely, including his own site, Down To Earth Kiwi.

And in spite of his career success he appears modest, but with the ability and intent to ruffle feathers.

This was a wide ranging and very enjoyable discussion.

And we finish of with The Mailroom with Mrs Producer.

File your comments and complaints at [e-mail]

Haven't listened to a podcast before? Check out our simple how-to guide.

Listen here on iHeartRadio

Leighton Smith's podcast also available on iTunes:
To subscribe via iTunes click here

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks B. Follow
this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all
the information, all the debates of the Union. Now the
Leyton Smith podcast Coward by news Talks it B.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Welcome to Podcasts two hundred and fifty one for August fourteen,
twenty twenty four. Professor Robert McCulloch has a resume and
that is to be en beat. He began his tertiary
education at the University of Auckland, continued at the London
School of Economics, Princeton University of America. He was director

(00:48):
of the PhD program at Imperial College in London. He's
been awarded with numerous prizes along the way, and returned
to New Zealand twelve years ago. He is Professor of
Macroeconomics at Auckland University and publishes widely, including his own
sites down to Worth Kiwi. And that's another statement. And

(01:10):
in spite of his career success, he appears to be modest,
but with the ability and the intent to ruffle feathers.
I think you'll enjoy this particular discussion. Now, please keep
in mind that this was recorded and put to bed
before Adrian or the Governor of the Reserve Bank made
his announcement with regard to it to interest rates, so

(01:34):
that could or may not affect anything that we've said
in the discussion. Just a few moments ago, I was
filling in a bit of time looking at an article
written by somebody I've previously interviewed. The said article runs
twenty eight printed pages. Yes, I've printed all of it,
and I'm wondering whether to interview the author again in

(01:57):
one setting or turn twenty eight pages into a series
because it covers a hell of a lot of current
and important matter. Now, on a more serious note, I
received this from a a friend and it relates to
the plane crash in Brazil, which was last week I
think on Friday their time. But it gives some detail

(02:19):
with regard to some of the passengers. Now, you may
have heard of this by the time you listened to
the podcast, but either way it doesn't matter. Doctors killed
in plane crash vowed to release evidence linking mRNA to
Turbo cancer. Eight cancer doctors who dedicated their lives to
saving others and blowing the whistle on the devastating turbocancer

(02:40):
epidemics sweeping the world have been found dead. The bodies
of six world leading oncologists and two resident medics were
found on Friday in the wreckage of the plane that
plunged from the sky in Brazil and exploded in a fireball,
killing all sixty two people on board. The doctors were
on their way to an international conference in South Paulo,

(03:03):
where they were set to present their findings that mRNA
and COVID nineteen vaccines are responsible for the explosion of
turbocancers and autoimmune disease, wreaking havoc around the world. Today,
mainstream media are working over time to brush this story
under the carpet. Now that sounds a little conspiratorial, and

(03:24):
if it does to you, then my only suggestion is
keep an open mind, because there's more going on behind
the scenes than any of us really aware of. And
so to Professor Robert McCulloch after the break, there are

(03:45):
essential fat nutrients that we need in our diet as
the body can't manufacture them. These are Omega three and
Amiga six fatty acids. Equisine is a combination of fish
oil and virgin evening primrose oil, a formula that provides
an excellent source of Omega three and Omega six fatty
acids in their naturally existing ratios. The Omiga six from

(04:06):
evening primrose oil assists it's the Omega three fish oil
to be more effective. Equisine is a high quality fish
oil supplement enriched with evening primrose oil that works synergistically
for comprehensive health support. Source from the deep sea sardines
Anchovisa Magril provide essential Amiga three fatty acids in their
purest form without any internal organs or toxins. Every batch

(04:29):
is tested for its purity before it's allowed to be sold.
Equisine supports cells to be flexible, so important to support
healthy blood flow and overall cardiovascular health. Equisine can support mood,
balance and mental clarity and focus in children, all the
way to supporting stiff joints, mental focus, brain health and
healthy eyes as we get older. Equaisin is a premium,

(04:52):
high grade fish and evening primrose oil to be taken
in addition to a healthy diet and is only available
from pharmacies and health stores. Always read the label and
users directed and if symptoms persist, seeing your health care professional.
Farmer Broker Auckland. Robert McCulloch is Professor of macro Economics

(05:22):
at Auckland University. Now he has a very long resume,
but we will stick with the professorship at the moment
because that's all that matters to us. He is a Kiwi,
he's a New Zealander. He's worked and studied in various
universities and places around the world. Very very impressive. When

(05:43):
did you return to by the way, welcome to the podcast.
When did you return to.

Speaker 3 (05:46):
New Zealand about twelve years ago?

Speaker 2 (05:49):
Have you been at Auckland University all that time?

Speaker 3 (05:54):
About a decade?

Speaker 4 (05:55):
And when I left school in univisity, I work in
Wellington at Reserve Bank of New Zealand for a couple
of years before going abroad.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
How buried are you in the subject of macroeconomics?

Speaker 4 (06:10):
Yeah, well it's the subject I've been studying for about
twenty thirty years in not just in this country, around
around the world, and I take a great interest not
just in economics but also politics as it relates to
the subject. I used to attend the meetings of the

(06:33):
Zet Initiative, which is this sort of think tank national
party advisor on behalf of one of their members, the
former bear Baron, Sir Douglas Myers, who died a number
of years ago.

Speaker 3 (06:46):
So I take an interest.

Speaker 4 (06:47):
It's not just sort of public sector, but private sector
quite quite a range as well as politics.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
The Reserve Bank, of course, is another interest that you
would have. Yes, so we'll get to the Reserve Bank shortly.
But the state of the country at the moment financially economically,
how do you view it?

Speaker 3 (07:06):
Well, it's not great, of course. Why isn't it great?

Speaker 4 (07:12):
A lot of it has to do with how the
country was managed during the COVID years and the finance
minister back then, Robertson, who's popped up as vice chancellor
of Otaga University on six hundred and twenty nine thousand
a year.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
By the way, Grant Robertson.

Speaker 4 (07:33):
Assured us that he really staked his reputation on the
fact that he said the COVID policy of the government
would create good health outcomes and good economic outcomes.

Speaker 3 (07:46):
The two went exactly had in hand.

Speaker 4 (07:49):
Well, that's been proven to be false, and that line
was also promoted by Michael Baker at the epidemiologist at
Otaga University.

Speaker 3 (08:02):
That's just not true.

Speaker 4 (08:04):
As a result of the policies during the COVID year
in which they are reserving printed fifty billion bucks of
cash on top of a massive fiscal expansion of the
government of Robertson financed by debt. Those over the top
policies have landed us have a large part of the

(08:27):
responsibility for landing us in the mess we're currently in,
which is a recession. Westpac economists of predicting it might
even be a triple dip recession. And so we're still
emerging from the carnage of those six years of mismanagement
by Grant Robertson. So you know, good luck to Otaga

(08:49):
University because Robinson's been hired by them to sort out
their financial situation, while Grant has left the financial situation
of this country in an utter shambles.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
So you singled him out. As far as the government
is concerned, is the then Prime Minister have a percentage
of responsibility for that?

Speaker 4 (09:12):
Well, of course, because there was this view that they
brought into coming from their advisors like Baker and Otago.
The theme of their government was good health outcomes go
hand in hand with good economic outcomes. They thought everything

(09:33):
they were doing in terms of COVID would lead to
the best economic outcomes in the world, so they argued,
we're the best health outcomes and we'd have the best
economic outcomes. Well, funnily enough, America is currently booming and
we're in a recession.

Speaker 3 (09:52):
So heck that was a bit off, wasn't it.

Speaker 4 (09:55):
And what really stuffed the country was towards the end
of twenty twenty one, going right quite recently into twenty
twenty two, Auckland was in a full scale lockdown. So
the city where almost forty percent of the country to live,
the hub of much of its economic output, was shut

(10:17):
down and the entire city was locked up. And you
know that, I think took away the mojo of Auckland.
It took away our confidence, and Hipkins and a Deern
were largely responsible for that. It seems at some sort
of quite deep level Hepkins really doesn't like Auckland, and

(10:39):
Auckland doesn't really like him, so it's hard to see
how he could ever really hope being Prime Minister again
when he did that to forty percent of the country's
population and stuffed the economy in the process.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
It's a very interesting and I think very accurate take
but there were other things that contributed to the to
the situation in Auckland. Of course, we'll get onto one
of those. No, we'll get onto a couple of those shortly.
There is another matter that has bugged this country for
a long time, productivity or lack of it. More importantly,

(11:16):
why is it that our productivity has been stemied for
so long and nobody seems to be able to make
what is a worthwhile impact upon it.

Speaker 4 (11:29):
Well, yes, productivity. It's in the news all the time.
It has been for the last twenty odd years. And
my view of.

Speaker 3 (11:40):
That is that the so called experts.

Speaker 4 (11:45):
And you know, some folks would say, and I'm meant
to be an expert. Well, the government set up the
Productivity Commission, which was focused entirely on that matter, how
to find out what was causing low productivity and how
to fix it, and it's recently been wound up, it's
been abolished by the government. So my view on that is,

(12:05):
if you're briefly honest about it, we still don't know
exactly what has held back productivity growth in the country,
and I.

Speaker 3 (12:17):
Think that's the fair solution.

Speaker 4 (12:20):
Instead, you have a different person every week saying they
blame red tape. Others blame how geographic isolation. Some people
say there's something wrong with the tax system and that
should be changed. The Productivity Commission said, where you know,

(12:43):
so far away from our major markets.

Speaker 3 (12:45):
We're a small country.

Speaker 4 (12:47):
But the Productivity Commission ended up listing about twenty different factors.
And in a way that's unsatisfactory because you really want
to know what's the most important factor, and you know,
a ranking of the factors, what's the thing we should
really focus on.

Speaker 3 (13:05):
Is it, say, red tape?

Speaker 4 (13:06):
And you know, David Seymour's are going to head up
a new Ministry of Regulation to try to cut that.
But is that the main issue or is it something else?
And I think the Productivity Commission failed because it never
really ranked that long list in order of most to
least important. So it is unsatisfactory that for that reason,

(13:31):
because you know, the experts have never definitively identified what
it is. And it's become also confused by the fact
that productivity has been slowing in other countries like the
United States and in Europe, that many of those countries
have been suffering a productivity slow down, and some of

(13:53):
them are pointing to issues like the aging population, they're
just not as sort of many young people who tend
to be more innovative than older people. So it's incredibly
hard to identify exactly what the cause is. My suspicion

(14:13):
in this country over the last ten or so years
is that we've drifted into not becoming a meritocracy and
the people, the students we have, the ones who work
hardest get the highest grades.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
They're not getting the best jobs.

Speaker 4 (14:32):
Other factors are coming into play, and certainly we know
if you try to run a nation where the best
people are not promoted to the top, productivity we know
for a fact in economics is really.

Speaker 3 (14:48):
Going to suffer.

Speaker 4 (14:50):
Market economies are built on rewarding effort and ability. And
so my sort of preferred suspect as to what's holding
us back is we have to get back to a
country where meritocracy is rewarded. And if you look at
the outstanding performance of our applet, how is the Olympic
team chosen? Is it chosen on sort of other factors

(15:14):
coming into play, on what kind of team that looks
nice that you want, or is it done on who
got that, who was the fastest, who was the fastest canoeist,
who was the quickest, who could jump the highest and
high jump.

Speaker 3 (15:30):
No, they select.

Speaker 4 (15:31):
The team on who was the best, the highest, the strongest.
They don't select it on other factors. And look at
what the Kiwi athletes did, one of the best performances
in the world. So I think, I think as a
country we respond to incentives, and I think, particularly over
the last six years, certainly labor virtually destroyed the idea

(15:52):
of meritocracy in the country. I think it's unforgivable what
they did in that respect.

Speaker 3 (15:57):
We have to get back to rewarding merit. That's my view.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
That's I'm not going to prove easy I feel, but
I very much appreciated you pointing out the dying off
of a certain class of the population. I don't want
to narrow it down, but just the dying off of
an attitude that came out of the Second World War.
If it wasn't there before, uh and and and stayed

(16:23):
for a long time, and then all of us, well,
not all of a sudden, but it seemed all of
a sudden you had a different approach from those who
were exiting school going on to wherever else they went
that lacked lacked an attitude now I can. I can
point to that in the in the industry or the

(16:45):
business that I've been in, when they've experienced people applying
for jobs and it's nights or weekends or a bit
of both or what no, no, no, no, I don't
work weekends. I don't work nights. I've got other things
to do. And this has been an attitude, and the minuture,

(17:06):
the minuture hear that it's really a case of I
want the corner office. Not did you have officers anymore
in broadcasting, but I want the corner office, and I
want at least three phones and a television and by
the way, while you're at it, get me a maid.
That's the attitude that.

Speaker 4 (17:23):
Has entered the arena, and I think I think that's
why it's been very hard to identify it. You know,
if you're looking at statistics and numbers, it's very hard
to prove it when it's sort of a cultural change
in an attitude. But that's what my suspicion is. It
is that kind of attitude change you're changing or you're describing.

(17:46):
You know, I've heard, by the way, it was that
from the wife whose husband was the former chief executive
of Southern cross medical insurance, so they know all the
sort of doctors in the country. She said, there is
no doctor shortage in the country. That's all a myth. Apparently,

(18:07):
the talk is as you say that a large number
of medical school graduates now don't want to work.

Speaker 3 (18:13):
Are you know five seven days a week.

Speaker 4 (18:16):
My dad was a GP work seven days a week
for many years when I was growing up.

Speaker 3 (18:21):
He was on call frequently in the weekends.

Speaker 4 (18:23):
Apparently, she said, you know, a lot of graduates now
want to work Tuesday to Thursday. You know, have these
sort of hours of their choosing, and they're just as
an attitude, they don't want to work like the previous
generation did.

Speaker 2 (18:37):
Well, there's another aspect to the medical side of things,
and that is the changes in well the attempted changes
in hospitals by boards of how doctors conduct themselves. And
I have to include, because I can't avoid it, the

(18:58):
racial aspects of it with and I've been shown numerous,
on numerous occasions examples of this where if you are
mari then you are entitled to first and more of
much of the health system. And there's no avoiding it.
And I said to one doctor, a very good specialist,

(19:22):
when he was actually showing me what he had to
deal with. I said, would you consider leaving the country
without breathing? He said yes. And that probably has led
to the belief, well contributed to the belief that we
have a shortage of doctors, and maybe we have a
shortage of specialists. I don't know.

Speaker 4 (19:43):
Yeah, Well, the entire health system needs to be changed.
It's not a matter of just changing the person at
the top, like Lester Levy. The entire system has to
be changed. My preferred reform, which I don't think that
the NATS have got the guts to do, is to.

Speaker 3 (20:01):
Keep the single payer structure that we have.

Speaker 4 (20:04):
That as the government pays the bills universal health care,
so no one has to worry, but it negotiates prices
at the hospitals for all different procedures. Barmac already does
that with the private drug companies. The medical laboratories are private,
gps are private practices. So the government negotiates prices and

(20:26):
then anyone public or private can offer their services at
those prices. And if it turns out that over half
of the hill system that people prefer to go private,
and over half of it is private suppliers, and that's fantastic,
and the public hospitals maybe become smaller, or if the

(20:50):
public sector is able to outcompete the private that's great
as well. But we need massive influx of competition, probably
a huge expansion of private suppliers. Everyone's covered, and you
can choose whether you go public and private. But having
this system of a single payer, which is fine, but
also essentially single supplier that is the big public hospitals,

(21:15):
you get into all of this mess where the government's
policies on all sorts of matters, not just medical help,
but all sorts of ideology of the government creeps into
the supply side, and I think that needs to change.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
I want to back up just a moment, when you
were mentioning the pandemic and the effect that it had
in the reaction to it on both the health and
economic front, what advice would you have because undoubtedly, well
I'm guessing that you won't ask for any advice, But
what advice would you have given the government if they

(21:53):
if they'd sorted.

Speaker 4 (21:55):
Yeah, well, the government had their chosen advisors. I think
that led to Durn's downfall because she didn't.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
Listen to a range of advice.

Speaker 4 (22:04):
She just had the advisors who she loves, and she
listened to pretty much everything they had to say. So
this isn't with hindsight. By the way, Robertson accused some
of us who do commentary on this as just commenting
with the benefit of hindsight. At the time, I was

(22:26):
writing that on the blog in the papers that given
there was such an extraordinary large fiscal expansion of borrowing
financed by borrowing, it was unnecessary to do such a
large monetary expansion as well.

Speaker 3 (22:44):
So at the time my view was that was a
major mistake. Of course, the.

Speaker 4 (22:48):
Wage substy scheme, that sort of thing was all good.
But when you had the wage substy scheme in place,
why on top of that did you need to print
fifty billion bucks. So I think it's virtually criminal what
the Reserve Bank did. We already had one of the
world's largest fiscal expansions and to put on top of
that one of the world just monetary expansion.

Speaker 3 (23:10):
So at the time, with all the limited power I have.

Speaker 4 (23:14):
Which is doing things like your show, I was arguing
one should not do that monetary expansion.

Speaker 3 (23:20):
What did it do? It blew up inflation.

Speaker 4 (23:23):
And then the Reserve Bank governor said well, we have
to now engineer recession to get the inflation I created
back down again. He actually got that wrong as well.
He did an engineer recession. It looks like he's engineered
three recessions, and so he threw the country into a
cost of living crisis as people struggled to pay their mortgages.

(23:43):
So I think that was a fundamental mistake that was made.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
Do you do shopping as in food.

Speaker 3 (23:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
Were you constantly aware of the increase in the bill
that you had to pay every time you went shopping?

Speaker 4 (23:59):
Oh, of course, of course. I mean, you know, I
have three children, of course we can. It's just astronomical.
The ow food bill is probably you know, higher than
the average wage in the in the in the country.

Speaker 3 (24:17):
It's just just phenomenal.

Speaker 4 (24:18):
And you know that means, you know, to bring up
children now just to pay the groceries, both parents have
to work.

Speaker 3 (24:26):
You can't.

Speaker 4 (24:27):
You can't buy grocery bills in a million years in
this country with one parent working on the average wage,
you you can't. You can't afford food. So of course
that was a Now on that topic, can you believe
it that it's in the news every other day that
we have this duopoly with the supermarkets. So what did

(24:50):
Adarn do in her infinite wisdom during the lockdowns? He
granted the duopoly, the monopoly enshrined in law that no
one else in the country could sell food during the
locko downs, only the two super big supermarket chains chain.

Speaker 3 (25:12):
So every small business.

Speaker 4 (25:14):
And grosser got wiped out and that was the law
of the country. So that was another I think economic
policy where a Dern and Hipkins and Robertson enshrined the
power of monopolies in the economy. And I still don't
think we pulled out of that.

Speaker 2 (25:35):
Do you think that that was just plain ignorance or
did that did that deploy some shall we say socialist approach?

Speaker 4 (25:47):
Yes, I mean the ideology of socialism was there with
just command and control essentially it you know, it's called
an economics command and control regulations that every the idea
was we can sort everything out through by by command

(26:07):
and and I think in Dern's head the idea was, well,
we listened to Baker at Otago.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
Because he said we should lock down.

Speaker 4 (26:17):
The only practical way of doing that, we grant him
monopoly to the chains. And then, of course, gosh, if
the supermacher chains have made. If people like that have
made too much money because of our policy, well we'll
call David Parker and ask him with mister Pickeaty how
to design capital at wealth taxes in the country to
get the money back.

Speaker 3 (26:37):
I mean, this is just a.

Speaker 4 (26:38):
Shambalaquay of conducting, conducting, you know, a country's management.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
Well, shambolic and ignorant.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yeah, I have to slip in here that I did
some economics, and I'm reluctant to do it because I
never finished anything. But I did some economics and my favorite,
my favorite class was comparative economic systems, and it set

(27:09):
me on a path that ended up with me being
in the Soviet Union as it still was in January
of nineteen eighty nine, and I saw firsthand and experience
firsthand as a guest of Navosity Press, all sorts of
aspects of life that we avoided, of course, But how

(27:38):
anybody with the history that socialism has, Marxism has, I
just don't know how anyone can be a part of it.
It's absurd. Now you want to take any issue with that.

Speaker 4 (27:50):
No, we'll ask a Dern because she still wildly embraces it.
And of course the Labor Party is wildly embracing it.
So surprisingly, there was some very strong comments earlier this
week anti charter school comments.

Speaker 3 (28:07):
By the late a shadow education.

Speaker 4 (28:11):
Spokesperson, and it was sort of a vitriolic spewing of
invective on the idea that privately supplied anything that's privately
supplied was really a sort of horrible idea, and the idea,
even though charter schools are publicly funded, the idea that

(28:32):
private suppliers would run them was just went against everything
the Labor Party stood for, which is amazing to hear
that in twenty twenty four.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
Think that you really think it's amazing, Well maybe not.

Speaker 4 (28:49):
I was surprised because that the only way out of
the mess of not just education but the health system
is that that kind of model of public funding which
ensures equity, that regardless whether you're or wealthy, whatever, everyone
can go to a charter school, or regardless of wealth,

(29:12):
you can go to any medical supplier of your choice.
But you, of course to have competition between public and
private suppliers is a great thing.

Speaker 3 (29:23):
That competition is fantastic.

Speaker 4 (29:25):
So to here Labor coming out anti competition.

Speaker 3 (29:29):
I find unbelievable there.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
Well, I follow the charter school game for the last
few years and done a number of interviews around it,
and it's to me it comes back to the to
the power of the teachers unions essentially.

Speaker 4 (29:48):
Yes, And I mean what struck me was that labor
must really really want the education of young Maori to suffer.
Because President Obama in America, his words were he lauded
charter schools in America as a beacon of hope for
young Black americ and children. And they also were showing

(30:11):
great results for young Mari children because that model of
independence and you know, you can design the schools policies
with more freedom from the state was showing great results.
So it seems that some level labor really have it
in for the education of young Mari.

Speaker 2 (30:31):
The subject of infrastructure has had a big play in
the last few weeks. It was brought home to me
when I was listening to the radio and heard commentary
with regard to the necessary machinery for infrastructure, and it's
basically all left. All the big stuff has left the
country and getting it back isn't going to be easy.

(30:53):
How much is that going to hinder the development of
well the comeback for this and any other government, let
alone the people.

Speaker 3 (31:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (31:05):
Well, the infrastructure thing has rumbled on course for.

Speaker 3 (31:11):
A long time.

Speaker 4 (31:13):
The most important infrastructure is probably the ones of our cities. Surprisingly,
some infrastructure projects like highways can be more controversial.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
In America, there's there's this.

Speaker 4 (31:28):
Thing called the highway movement, and they want all these
interstate highways to be fantastic, and some urban economists have
been a bit critical of some of that focus. We
invited the world seating urban economist Ed Glazer out here
many years ago, and their priority is to get the
cities right, because the more you have magnificent highways leaving

(31:53):
the cities, that that can be responsible for sprawl, you know,
miles out of the cities.

Speaker 3 (31:59):
It can encourage you know, less densification.

Speaker 4 (32:03):
So I think on infrastructure it's you know, the cities
are vital.

Speaker 3 (32:08):
You know, Auckland's going towards forty percent.

Speaker 4 (32:10):
Of the country's population, and the infrastructure of cities like
Auckland Christis really has to be great to otherwise if
our big cities fail, the country will fail.

Speaker 3 (32:27):
So yes, that's you know, that debate has rumbled on for.

Speaker 4 (32:32):
Many years, and I mean, what can I do about it.
A decade ago we invited the world seeding urban economists.
He made all of these points, He met all the
people in government and the council. They ignored every piece
of advice he gave. He told them a decade ago,
you've got to introduce toll roads congestion charges. Now what

(32:54):
ten or twelve years have passed and they're still discussing
congestion charges and tolls.

Speaker 3 (33:00):
I mean, what more can we do.

Speaker 4 (33:02):
We invite the world's experts out, we sit them in
front of Labor and national prime ministers, we carry on
about infrastructure. I used to attend the meetings of the
NZET Initiative.

Speaker 3 (33:14):
I lobbied.

Speaker 4 (33:15):
I remember when John Key was Prime Minister for more
of the spending. They all shut me up. They said,
oh mate, what would you know that? You know, we're
rebuilding christ Church, so we don't have any money for Auckland.
I mean this, whether it's National or Labor, I'm just
I'm just tired of all this bull crap.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
Does that encourage you to think about leaving the country.

Speaker 4 (33:34):
Oh it doesn't. I think it's still a great place
to live. Look the irony of this country in terms
of leaving. There is a great almost paradox that we're
doing badly on productivity, but in terms of these quality
of life and disease, which I take quite seriously, how

(33:56):
sort of happy people are in countries. New Zealand has
typically been in the top ten Kiwi's rank is having
extremely high levels of overall quality of life, and you know,
thank god that's the case, even though financially we haven't
been doing great that the overall quality of life is
what keeps many of us here, and so I think

(34:20):
I think we still have a very powerful card to
play with that overall.

Speaker 3 (34:25):
Quality of life.

Speaker 4 (34:26):
And if and if our cities are made very you know,
edgy and diverse, livable, but also with great opportunities, they're
a real melting pot of innovation and hubs of entrepreneurship
that you know, if we can just get that mix
right with the lifestyle and the proximity to the beaches

(34:47):
and the mild climate, I mean, we still have extraordinary
natural assets.

Speaker 3 (34:51):
So I think I think that is we still have
reason for hope.

Speaker 2 (34:56):
Well, as somebody said recently, hope isn't the what's the
term hope? Hope is not a plan anyway, Just speaking
of people leaving the country. You must know because you
you teach, you must know the number of graduates who
are packing their bags and leaving the country.

Speaker 3 (35:17):
Yeah, it's phenomenal.

Speaker 4 (35:18):
I mean most of the ones who've done well typically
say they wouldn't apply for a job here in a
million years, so they're off.

Speaker 3 (35:27):
There is an exodus at that level.

Speaker 4 (35:30):
You know, it's not widely reported in the media sort
of what's driving part of that because it's not even
after people have finished training here. There's an unprecedented move
where people are leaving even after finishing up at school.
So it's not just posh private schools, but if you
look at from McLean's College and organ rang A Toto College,

(35:51):
a whole bunch of public and private schools, roughly the
top twenty students from when they're seven eighteen years old
are leaving the country at eighteen and that's a very
young age and they'll probably never come back. And so
the trend is for increasingly star performers at young ages

(36:13):
to go.

Speaker 3 (36:13):
One of the reasons for that is.

Speaker 4 (36:15):
I think in the name of egalitarianism, even if you
do amazingly at school here, it doesn't really help you
because you can be a star student. That everyone just
goes to the local training college, the local university. Everyone
just piles into Victoria or Otago Auckland. Whether you've been

(36:37):
top of your year or Ducks, whether you're a star athlete, whatever,
you all just go to the same place. The whole
point of working hard at school in nearly every country,
from China to India to England to France the United
States is it sets you up to go to an
amazing college. If you're a sports star in the US,

(36:59):
you get into Stanford, if you're an amazing swimmer. That's
the game. So that's what incentivizes people here. You bust
your US at school, you do great, and then in
the name of egoitarianism, oh, let's just.

Speaker 3 (37:14):
Pretend that never happened.

Speaker 4 (37:16):
Pretend you didn't become a sports star or an academic star.
You know, and if you did, it's probably because you're
from a privileged background, So screw you, and you can
all start the same at university again. Well that I
think that's creating a massive brain grain for the country
because these kids are you know, I think everyone knows

(37:39):
the truth. Now, these are the Ivy League schools in America.
Universities around the world are targeting our star athletes, our
star performances, and they're putting them on full scholarships. So
this isn't happening when they're older. This is happening at eighteen.
We're losing the cream of the country at eighteen years.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
Well, are we losing many students to elite universities in
the States, Because I've got to carry, I've got it.
Are we losing many?

Speaker 4 (38:05):
Well, I can tell you because the schools I see
are from a range of schools. Now, when they send
their reports, they list down the number of students who
are going to overseas universities, and off the top schools
in Auckland, you'll see roughly the top ten twenty students,

(38:25):
nearly all of them are going to overseas universities.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
See, I've got to count you a little, and I'll
be interested in your reaction, because there is a change
in America that elite colleges are not worth going to. Now,
I was reading something just a few days ago, and
let me get this. Right to go to Yale, for instance,

(38:52):
which will cost you something like six hundred and something
on thousand dollars. Take that debt if you've got to
borrow the money, take that debt and work out how
much of your life is going to be spent repaying
that there is a there is a swing away is
what is what I'm suggesting from what I've seen in

(39:14):
the last few months, that the kids are kids and
their parents recognizing that the elite universities are now a
waste of money because of their DEI and and all
the other alphabet soups.

Speaker 4 (39:29):
Well, the key we kids this top group, this elite group,
which you know, by the way, for a small country
like us, it's devastating. They're they're being offered full scholarships.
They're not paying anything. So if you're a top tennis player,
swimmer row, you know that they are coming out and

(39:51):
fully funding you. So I don't think many would turn
down a full you know, in fact, they've been given
six hundred thousand by the likes of Yale.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
I wouldn't I would, I wouldn't argue with you on
that at all. It's it's just it's the home team
that seems to be seems to be reacting anyway.

Speaker 4 (40:10):
By the way, by the way, a large group the
majority of piling into the Australian universities. So that's sort
of a well known fact. They're piling into Melbourne and Sydney.
Melbourne's got a world sort of roughly top.

Speaker 3 (40:25):
Ten ranked university.

Speaker 4 (40:26):
I don't know, it's sort of sixteenth in the world
or something, and they've become enormously attractive to Keew students.
I think Chris Suckson's daughter, he was in the paper
going to her graduation in Melbourne. That's a very large
part of the scene.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
Now interesting because there was another little home event one
of my boys. We went in twenty ten. We went
to when he was some sort school. At the end,
we went to Melbourne, we did interviews, he was accepted
into law and he was accepted into the only house

(41:07):
that he wanted to stay in to live in color College.
And we weren't looked at it and it was it
was stunning. But in the end he decided to go
to a target.

Speaker 3 (41:18):
Hmmm.

Speaker 2 (41:19):
I think it had I think it had as much
to do with mates as.

Speaker 4 (41:23):
He might have he might have made he might have
made a mistake. I mean, I call Otago the party university.
So I trust that wasn't his motive. No, I can,
I can.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
Tell you it wasn't, but that doesn't mean he didn't
fringe on it. Look expanding some of the some of
the matters that we've already discussed. Infrastructure, for instance, the
state of the of the biggest city in the country
is still disastrous, still appalling. I've forgotten now how many

(41:53):
more years the underground is going to take. I've also
forgotten what the latest pricing is. All I know is that,
as expected from the beginning, it's blown out of all
proportioned to to what it was going to cost in
the first place. Anybody with any vision and experience watching

(42:14):
the cost of large scale infrastructure could have could have
told them that, but it has anyway. They're still in
a state of flux. They've ruined Queen Street, They've ruined
Custom Street and Key Street, They've they've screwed up just
about everything and wild there's been a bit of a

(42:36):
reprise for Smith and Coe. The big historic store is
no more and people are not even wanting to live
in the city now. So where does that Where does
that leave us with regard to our discussion, Let me
make a suggestion. Auckland Transport, which I've termed the biggest

(42:57):
example of the administrative state in this country has has
contributed to the wreck that Auckland CBD has become. And
they're still not over doing it. They still want more.

Speaker 4 (43:11):
You see, yeah, look, you know it's it's it's just
leaves you speechless. The Empire State Building, by the way,
from before the spot that was in the nineteen twenties
in America, from before the site even the foundations were dug,
it was just flat land.

Speaker 3 (43:31):
From the time the.

Speaker 4 (43:34):
Starting date where the foundations were dug to the opening
of the Empire State Building is a completed building. Do
you know how that Take a guess how long was that?
Three years, fifteen months.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
I knew it was now, but I didn't realize it
that quick.

Speaker 3 (43:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (43:52):
So then you take a look at lovely, our lovely
Fletcher Building building up the Convention Center, which is about
one percent zero point one percent the size of the
Empire State Building coming up for what ten years, coming
up for ten years. Fletchers can't even put up a
tiny little building in ten years. And then they blame

(44:14):
a fire and everyone blames everyone, and it just descends
into the usual blame game of the leaky home crisis
and god knows what.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
So it's a disgrace, isn't it.

Speaker 4 (44:25):
And Auckland Transport, I mean, what an organization. Obviously in
its current form it should be disbanded.

Speaker 3 (44:33):
The mirror is right via the whole board.

Speaker 4 (44:36):
But the catch crow of the American Revolution was no
taxation without representation.

Speaker 3 (44:43):
So where does it.

Speaker 4 (44:45):
Augan Transport get its money from our taxes, but we're
not represented by it. It's not responsive to what the
people want. We all keepe its guts. It's got an
approval rating of like negative one hundred, and the whole
thing should go. So either it's put more directly under
the control, directly under the control of the mayor, the

(45:06):
council or the minister, and emergency action is taken. You know,
maybe there is some reason for optimism. Although people critique
Chrys Luxen for being a CEO and knowing more about
sort of management maybe than governing the country.

Speaker 3 (45:23):
Maybe it's a good thing.

Speaker 4 (45:25):
Maybe if he can go through all these organizations with
a fine tooth comb, get rid of the boards.

Speaker 3 (45:33):
You know they've done that in the health end Z.

Speaker 4 (45:36):
And he can look at the way all of these
things are running like divisions of a company, and he
can get things running more efficiently and the reporting lines changed.
Maybe you know, he could prove to be a very
good leader. Maybe that is what the country does need,
some you know, competent manager going through the shambles of

(45:57):
these organizations. If you look at the board of Auckland Transport,
a lot of them seem to be showing off saying
we're on the boards of ten other companies and directors.

Speaker 3 (46:06):
I mean, what is this? What is this old style kei.

Speaker 4 (46:09):
We game where you know, at cocktail parties and social
scenes you say, oh, I'm on the board of ten companies. Well,
obviously they don't have time for any one of them.
It's sort of a social game in this country to
be on these boards. And then you take twenty thirty
forty fifty thousand for each board, and when you multiply
it by ten boards, you're on five hundred thousand dollars
a year for doing nothing. So I think there needs

(46:32):
to be a really a real change in the way
that Fletcher's Boards, by the way, is no better Fletcher Buildings.
So there needs to be a change in the way
that the governance has done. And let's trust that Luxon
will take aim at all these places and sort them out.

Speaker 3 (46:49):
In the next couple of years.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
All right, off the back of people leaving the country,
have the have we got the intellect left behind who
can achieve the things that you're talking of.

Speaker 4 (47:01):
Well, we've got to fall back on this fact that
we were in the top ten in the world in
quality of life, and so we've got that to back
us up. It's promoting I think, you know, in the
famous words of John F.

Speaker 3 (47:15):
Kennedy, you know, a new generation.

Speaker 4 (47:17):
We've got to take some risks and bets on the
new talent coming through and you know, put them in positions,
often of power, and get the best offer someone who
might be thinking of leaving the country the top position
to sort out these sorts of these sorts of places,
not the usual boring suspects of you know, there's a

(47:40):
chairman of one of New Zealand's largest public companies that
I bought a product from. I can't name his name
or you get sued, but it broke and they blame
me for it. And I went to cirk and after
a month or two I got in touch with the
chairman of this major public company and virtually he's actually uncontactable.
And then I discovered where he's living he's living in Wanaka,

(48:01):
for God's sake, skiing half the day, barting around. I mean,
is this the new Zealand? We want this old stuff
thing where you're on the boards of twenty companies, nothing's
running properly, you're basing yourself online and Wanaka there. I
think there does need an attitude and culture shift and
let's trust that Chris Hucksen will try to sort it out.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
Watch this space very carefully. There's a couple of things
that I want to I want to spring on you
and if it's if it's not your field, then just
say so. But I'm first, first of all intrigued with
what your feelings might be about artificial intelligence.

Speaker 4 (48:43):
Well, yeah, my feelings are that it is is probably
going to be a revolutionary technology. I'll tell you my
sources for this. I met about six or seven years
ago Shane leg who's a key we born in Rotarua,
who's in charge of Google's worldwide efforts to.

Speaker 3 (49:09):
Advanced artificial intelligence.

Speaker 4 (49:10):
And Shane Legg's company, deep Mind, was really the company
that started the AI revolution. So it's remarkable that we
have a kiwi. He sold that to Google one hundred
million pounds. It was backed by Peter Teal, who's a
New Zealand citizen. He was the first investor, so leg
is part of that musk sort of Teal group.

Speaker 3 (49:33):
He's a classic case of a talented.

Speaker 4 (49:34):
Kiwi who is not returning to the country and is
based in London. But obviously he's no fool, and he's
absolutely convinced that this is a revolutionary technology, which, ironically,
going back to your productivity issue, if it is a
lot of those issue issues could melt away to the

(49:56):
extent it transforms our lives. The other point of view,
there is a counterpoint of view. I have a friend
James Lowry, who was sort of another example of our
brain drain. He was ducks of his school all the
way through New Zealand and then he left. He lives
in New York, also working for Google, and I asked
him about this question because he comes out here a lot.

(50:19):
He was a bit more skeptical. He said that many
people are using it more as a toy. He used
the word toy to describe it, and it's still yet
to prove its sort of practical applicability. And I see
a certain resonance with what James Sarry is saying that.
You know, many people are saying, oh, isn't it cool
what AI can do? But it's a bit has that aspect.

(50:41):
Isn't it fun? It's like a game, It's like a toy.
So you know, you've got Shane leg and this other
point of view. But certainly it's a shame New Zealand
can't get more involved in this technology through people like
Shane and also Peter tal But of course the christ
Church Judge went and told Eel that she didn't want

(51:03):
to building houses in the South Island and to you know,
go jump in Lake Wanaka and you know what a
jerk he was for trying to build the most environmentally
friendly house in the South Island. So being a libertarian,
I don't think he'll spend much time here. So good
on the christ Church judge he decided to you know,
reject his house.

Speaker 2 (51:21):
Well there's another matter we could have discussed. But activist
activist judges, I want to just counter you gently with
something I read this morning. We continually hear from globalists
at the World Economic Forum and other elitist institutions that
AI is the catalyst for the Fourth Industrial Revolution, a

(51:46):
technological singularity that will supposedly change every aspect of our society. Forever,
I keep waiting for the moment that AI does something
significant in terms of advancing human knowledge or making our
lives better. The moment never comes. In fact, the globalists
keep moving the goldpost for what AI really is. I
would note that the w EF zealots like Juvil Harari

(52:13):
talk about AI like it is the rise of an
all powerful deity. Yet Harari has also recently downplayed AI
as a sentient intelligence. He argues that it does not
need to achieve self awareness or consciousness in order to
be considered a super super being or living entity. He

(52:35):
even suggests that the popular image of a terminator like
AI with individual agency and desire is not a legitimate expectation.
In other words, AI as it stands today is nothing
more than a mindless algorithm, and thus it is not AI.
He goes on for a few pages, what do you think.

Speaker 4 (53:00):
Well, there is a debate about this, of course going around,
and because it's so new, it is still a debate.
We don't of course, we don't know at least if
you fall back on we fall back on our economics.
It's not the first time there's been the possibility of

(53:21):
a huge change in technology, because one of the most
studied episodes in the subject of the Industrial Revolution in
England and you know, in the seventeenth eighteenth century, and
that did transform life, you know, so that the Industrial
Age is obviously a big part of our history. It

(53:42):
turned Britain into the world's leading superpower of its time.
That was really responsible for the British Empire. It had
the largest GDP in the world, and the steam engine
and all those inventions did transform a human life. So
these things do happen. And you know, if you listen

(54:05):
to I've listened to. My source is shape League, who
I spoke to a number of years ago, and he's
convinced it amounts to a revolution. He's absolutely convinced. And
he there's a book called Soulful Machines. I think on
the topic of what you were saying of can these machines.

Speaker 3 (54:23):
Have a soul?

Speaker 4 (54:25):
There is a I'll try to fall back on the
debate because heck, you know, it's not my field of expertise.
On specifically a bit more the economic consequences. There's a
chap that in America who is sort of the big
name economist works in this field of technological progress and change,

(54:46):
and a guy Darren as Moglin's. He says he's concerned
about AI because he said they seem to be designing
it to replicate what humans do. And he says, the
thing is technology should really be supporting what we do.
It should be making human life better and enabling human

(55:08):
to be more productive. And when humans work with machines
that make them more productive, that leads to higher wages
because your labor productivity goes up the more capital you're
working with. It enhances what you can do as a human.
And he doesn't like the idea that sort of the
AI people are trying to not complement what humans do,

(55:30):
but substitute for them, almost like say, you know, sucked in,
you're a human, but here this machine can talk better
than you, write better than you. And even the robots,
like the Terminator, they look like you.

Speaker 3 (55:44):
And he's sort of a bit disturbed, like what's.

Speaker 4 (55:46):
Going on where they're trying to copy and substitute for
what humans do, which could make more humans unemployed. We
asked another economist about eight years ago called Larry Popley
cough from America, and you may think it's a bit funny,
but he made this comment on what technology can do where.

Speaker 3 (56:10):
By comparing humans with horses.

Speaker 4 (56:12):
Apparently there were apparently one hundred years ago there was
something like a million working horses. No, I think tens
tens of millions of working horses in America. Now there
are only a few hundred thousand, because once they invented
the car and all these sort of technologies, there was
nothing for horses.

Speaker 3 (56:29):
To do anymore.

Speaker 4 (56:30):
So there's only a handful of horses in America that
are mainly race horses, and there's no other use for
a horse. And he threw up the side here that
maybe we could go the way of horses. So this
is subject to sort of wild debate and conjecture.

Speaker 2 (56:46):
Then I think finally you mentioned the well, we mentioned
the Reserve Bank, and you mentioned the governor, et cetera.
I want to give you my take very briefly on
central bank digital currencies. And you'd be aware, of course
that the bank announced that it's goaling at for twenty thirty,

(57:09):
But don't worry about it. It'll be okay because it
will still be cash available and you'll still be running
in parallel. Now, anybody who believes that because the only
time we've heard that is after that crash a few
weeks back, and of course that provided a beautiful rebuttal

(57:33):
of getting forgetting a central bank digital currency that they
own and control, and therefore they will have control over
each and every one of our lives in the end.
Now that's my feeling. Freedom is the most important thing
in our lives. Without freedom, forget it. It's all over

(57:54):
in my opinion. And I don't trust Adrian Orr or
the next bloke to follow, or the bank itself in general,
or politicians not to utilize in particularly in cases of
a agency, the gradual and then sped up introduction of
a single currency that they control.

Speaker 4 (58:16):
Your thoughts, Yeah, I'm a great fan of cash too,
I mean, like you, it's sort of highly disturbing the
idea that the government and my bank and the accountants
virtually know what time you go to the toilet each
day because they can trace that you've been to the
supermarket and bought some toilet paper, and every single thing

(58:38):
you do is listed on your godamn you know, set
of internet transactions. So essentially there's never been a greater
loss of privacy as you know, ever, because of this
tracking of of of all of our habits and and
that's the great sort of story of our age. The
internet companies have available unprecedented amounts of data and know

(59:03):
exactly what what what what we're up to. So you know,
those are my thoughts too. That ASH is very important.
The Reserve Bank has said that it reports maintaining ASH.
As you said, the digital currency is quite a techy
area in economics. Our trading banks West Pakay and z

(59:24):
already they have accounts at the Reserve Bank and they're
called the settlements accounts, and that essentially is a digital
currency for them. That's where they hold instead of physical
cash that they're given these accounts that they hold at
the central bank and the reserve banks. Proposing we can
essentially all old accounts like the trading banks directly.

Speaker 3 (59:48):
At the reserve bank.

Speaker 4 (59:49):
And maybe that has benefits because then where in set
our accounts at Westpac and Westpac.

Speaker 3 (59:54):
Bankrupted, we're up that we could be up the creek.

Speaker 4 (59:57):
But if our funds are held at the Reserve Bank,
it's safer. So but as you say, the risk is
if that proves to be wildly popular, maybe it is
a move that fear and fewer people actually sort of
even want to have cash, and then with so few
people paying with cash, it just does gradually disappear, So

(01:00:18):
that could happen.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
I'm very pleased to say that I'm running into more
people who are saying I'm spending cash more than I
used to do because I don't want this coming my way.

Speaker 4 (01:00:30):
It's interesting, Well, well, of course the banks, if there
is a conspiracy. Of course, the banks probably hate themselves
the idea of cash, because if all key we simply
went to the bank and took out they're spending money
for the week from their check account and just spent

(01:00:51):
the cash, they wouldn't be paying this godamn rip off
one or two percent of this payWave a scandal.

Speaker 3 (01:00:59):
It's gripping the nation that they think it's.

Speaker 4 (01:01:02):
Convenient that every time you flash your card you transfer
a chunk of your money.

Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
To the banks.

Speaker 4 (01:01:08):
Just love you paying with plastic and if you paid
with good old fashioned cash, should be saving a lot
of your money.

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
What a delightful idea, Robert. I've got to say, it's
been a very very pleasant period talking with you, and
maybe we'll do it again sometime. I can only imagine
that when when there is a worthwhile when there is
a worthwhile matter that deserves your attention. You'll say yes, yes,

(01:01:41):
of course I commit now, as long as you're not
committed there, yeah, committed here all right. I appreciate it
was very enjoyable and very informative.

Speaker 3 (01:01:51):
Very good, Thank you. Thanks Robert.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
Now into the mail room for podcast two hundred and
fifty one. Guess who's here, miss producer?

Speaker 5 (01:02:16):
Late?

Speaker 6 (01:02:17):
How the devil?

Speaker 4 (01:02:17):
Are you?

Speaker 3 (01:02:18):
Very good?

Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
We record this at no particular time. It depends on when.

Speaker 5 (01:02:22):
I can find five minutes out of my busy schedule.

Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
Yeah, right, when we can coincide. Let's put it that way.

Speaker 5 (01:02:29):
So, so it's mid afternoon on a beautiful sunny day.

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
Hold it z, missus producer. It's been a busy week actually,
so let's go. Why don't you you?

Speaker 5 (01:02:42):
I shall late, and Daniel says, I have finally found
the time to listen to episode two fifty and just
finish your interview with Andrew Hollis. You made the suggestion
that someone might be happy to buy a few copies
of their books for interested schools. Well you can count
me in for one thousand dollars contribution. Just let me

(01:03:02):
know where to send it, or feel free to put
me in touch with the school principle and I can
place an order on their behalf.

Speaker 6 (01:03:09):
Is that nice of her?

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
Isn't that really nice?

Speaker 5 (01:03:11):
Would be great, he says, to see schools finally take
a critical thinking approach to climate change and many other subjects.
Thanks for the suggestion and as always the compelling guests,
and Daniel gives you his kind regards, and then he says, PS,
if you ever do consider hanging up the microphone, and
I hope you don't for a very long time, please

(01:03:33):
consider bringing on a replacement to try and keep your
podcast going. We can't afford to lose voices like yours.
All power to you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
Is that nice, Daniel. That's very generous of you on
all fronts. Now, I'll let you into a little secret.
We almost bankrupted you because what you just heard was
the second take. Now we don't do that normally, but
on this occasion we did because when missus producer read
it first time, she committed you to one hundred.

Speaker 5 (01:04:02):
Thousand, Lake said, how much. That's very generous. So sorry
about that, Daniel. Nearly nearly bankrupted.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
Jew So another along not dissimilar alliance from Craig. I
am keenly listening to podcast two hundred and fifty with
Andrew Hollis on climate change. Like Andrew, I see the
bigger picture on the long term climate change fraud and
conclude that if I cannot understand how stupid and gullible politicians, media, scientists,

(01:04:31):
and corporates are, I simply do not understand the human condition.
I found some enlightenment recently in a book that made
me realize that the wholesale coercion of science is nothing new.
The book is Hitler's Scientists by John Cornwall, published two
thousand and three. Cornwell's book details science and politics in

(01:04:53):
Germany and Europe from the late eighteen hundreds through until
the end of World War II. I'm not naturally into
the boring topics of physics, eugenics, and psychiatry, but I've
found the book a fore telling revelation of our modern world.
Those that refused to bow to the prevailing sentiments were
ostracized and canceled. The lucky ones left their homeland for

(01:05:16):
other continents Einstein, for example. It makes me realize that
modern science has never been unbiased. It has always been
based on money, politics, and ideology. We would it's modern science.
He is talking about We would do well to take
that into account when scientists revealed their decrees and then

(01:05:38):
claim that the science is settled. Follow the money selling
your scientific soul to pursue the almighty funding dollar and
plumb university chairs is nothing new. Neither is cancel culture,
media bias and racial ideology unique to our current scientific, corporate,
and political situation in New Zealand. We would do well

(01:06:00):
to look at history without cringing and observed where other civilizations,
including pre war Germany, went wrong. Congratulations on fifty years
of work. Unfortunately, I think your work and vital role
is unfinished. Z I relax and enjoy the riots.

Speaker 6 (01:06:18):
I think.

Speaker 5 (01:06:19):
I think lateron you're up for another couple of years
of this. So are you not so well? We're hoping
that you'll continue on.

Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
Will see.

Speaker 5 (01:06:27):
Laton Christopher says, I enjoyed your interview with Brian Leyland
in podcast two fifty and am delighted that you discussed
nuclear power with him. During an earlier podcast. You suggested
to him that New Zealanders weren't yet ready for nuclear power,
and he said, wait until the lights go out. If
not yet at that stage, we must be very close

(01:06:49):
in nineteen sixty nine, Christopher says the Electricity Department had
plans to build a nuclear power station at Oyster Point
on the Kaipra Harbor, plans that were deferred because Maui
gas became available. It will take us a decade to
plan for and build a nuclear power station, so we
must start now importing natural gas in the meantime and

(01:07:10):
doing everything possible to stop the insanity of building more renewables.
In addition to all their other issues, wind and solar
farms are destroying the visual landscape and creating an enormous
dismantling and disposal problem when they're short working lives end
actually late. And I must just say, my daughters and
I spent five days in costs and Greece a few

(01:07:35):
weeks ago and lying on the beach looking up at
the mountains behind us. There were wind turbines and it
was quite the juxtaposition in views, really, you know, just
to see these great, big things on top of these
beautiful hills that had nothing else on them. Chris goes

(01:07:58):
on to say you might enjoy the attached short essay
by Professor Wade Allison, and he sends you that Professor
Wade Allison is the name of the person, and it
summarizes the energy situation succinctly.

Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
Christopher, very good, Christopher, I shall as soon as we've finished.
I've just been reading one that I was really looking
forward to reading. As I read it, I thought, I'm
looking forward to reading this, and then I get to
the bottom says, please don't read this out loud if
you read this on air. Oh there you gay see
he's given me enough or they have. If you read

(01:08:35):
this on air, please don't mention my name. And there's
me a reason I better sit on that for the
moment because it looks like it might be easily identified
by some Sorry, but I'm mean. I didn't mean to tease.
It's just this is happening as we speak. That's all
from Steve. Congratulations on the two hundred and fiftieth podcast.

(01:08:58):
I hope this is doubled as the truth we hear
weekly from your podcasts and guests is always enlightening and informative.
I cannot tell you how pleasing it is to receive
that sort of comment, because you know we do our
best and there are plenty to try and disrupt us.

Speaker 5 (01:09:16):
Well, it's something that you just adore doing latent, isn't it?
And you spend pretty much all your time on it,
so it's definitely a labor of love.

Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
It's frustration exactly right. So where was I? Over the
last weeks, the regular Mary have spouted their rubbish as
they try to exert their race over the rights of others.
The behavior of Mary party leader Packer and the way
both speak would never be accepted if anyone else spoke

(01:09:45):
such venomous hatred Right there? I feel If other New Zealanders,
like myself with part Mary blood, feel like I do,
then there is hope to stop this anti all New
Zealander retric unless you are a Mariy radical. I'm sick
and tired of the news which stirs the pod daily
with Mary and spired stories of the continually perpetuated myth

(01:10:08):
have hard done by poor Mary, oppressed since European arrival.
Wouldn't it be a revelation if these groups actually acknowledge
the benefits they actually have like clothes, phones, TVs, vehicles, hospitals, roads,
modern housing, power, real boats, and far too much to
mention they were tribaled and engaged in slavery, conquest and

(01:10:31):
killing and eating anything they could inclusive of other tribes members.
They were lawless, yet blame everything on colonization, of which
they gladly did to each other's tribes. These marry blame
the past and blame the present, yet failed to own
or take any responsibility. Marie lost my interest years ago.

(01:10:54):
Winge moown grizzle fall on my deaf ears. They become
white noise to me, Yes, what a great saying. And
how I laugh at how they would cry, what a
racist saying that is, as they just add to the
white noise. I hear. See. That was a bit well complicated,
but we got there.

Speaker 3 (01:11:12):
In the end.

Speaker 5 (01:11:14):
Lighton Bronwin says you mentioned several topics that you felt
needed covering at the beginning of episode two fifty, including
the New Zealand pandemic plan. I thought this short article
from The Centrist might interest you and should you wish
to do an interview on the topic. Kirsten Murphett seems
to have her finger on the pulse and Bromin sends
you that piece from Centris dot co dot zid, and

(01:11:38):
then Brown goes on to say, I hope you might
feel inspired to take on another year of podcasts when
the contract comes up for renewal again as voices like
yours are much needed. If not, what would happen? Would
the podcast cease to exist or would someone else take
up the contract? And finally says Bronwyn, I have a
copy of your book beyond the microphone, which I would

(01:11:59):
like to give to somebody who would appreciate it. Would
you be willing to read this out and pass on
my number to the first person to email you wanting
it located Marlborough, free to a good home, to a local,
or just cover postage if you love elsewhere.

Speaker 2 (01:12:15):
And that's from bromwyin generous.

Speaker 5 (01:12:17):
I take great delight, latent, don't ie, and whenever I'm
in a hospice shop or a Red Cross shop and
phoning you and telling you that there it is for
two dollars inevitable, really well thumbed of course, of course.

Speaker 2 (01:12:32):
And finally from Liz, congratulations on your fifty years in
broadcasting and Carolyn's thirty six working with you well, working
is a loose word, isn't it?

Speaker 6 (01:12:43):
Settled down?

Speaker 2 (01:12:45):
Fifty years in business is also my goal. Next year
the gold card will arrive and I am not as
some of my friends are waiting by the letterbox for it.
I relish every day that I'm still able to contribute
to the company result. I don't have to do it.
I am fortunate enough to get to do it. I

(01:13:05):
hope that in four years time, when my fifty years
rolls around, that I am still spending the early hours
of my Saturday catching up on your podcasts. Best wishes, Liz, Liz,
I'll tell you what. I'll do a deal with you.
If you want to listen, I'll post them. But it
might be about the fourth time you've heard them all repeats.

Speaker 6 (01:13:25):
Yeah don't.

Speaker 5 (01:13:27):
You're not on your own because he's spending the early
hours of his Saturday actually doing it.

Speaker 6 (01:13:31):
So think of that when you're listening.

Speaker 2 (01:13:35):
Now there is one more you want to read it?

Speaker 3 (01:13:37):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (01:13:38):
Why not?

Speaker 5 (01:13:40):
Jin says I will not remember Jacinda Durn for her
so called kindness, her performative donning of the hijabb nor
her opportunistic use of COVID powers. But there are three
things that will constantly remind me of Jacinda in twenty
twenty four, power outages, power price increases, and enforced power cuts,
amongst a plethora of other crises. Safe Welcome to Jacinder

(01:14:03):
our Durn and Megan Woods remain unrepentant for single handedly
causing our current crisis with their bloody call to ban
offshore oil and gas exploration in New Zealand. Who would
have thought that my generation's nuclear free moment in twenty
eighteen would result in the next generation's lights out moment

(01:14:23):
in twenty four I love Andrew Hollis quote that becoming
a climate scientist now is detrimental to critical thinking. It's
clear neither our Dern nor Woods have any critical thinking
faculties when it comes to climate change. I was very
surprised to learn from Andrew Hollis that New Zealand's vast
grasslands are completely ignored in New Zealand's carbon counting. What

(01:14:47):
kind of stupid science are our climate change policies based on? Meanwhile,
the next generation of labor and green MPs continues to
march to the same rhetorical beat that our deurn spouted
for six whole years, with great dollops of racism thrown
and from Depati MAUI, I mean, what kind of word salad?

Speaker 6 (01:15:09):
Hell?

Speaker 5 (01:15:09):
Is the word ethnicide that's been spouted by Debbie nari Wapaka.
These inmates that are trying to run the asylum need
to be locked up forever. Their idea is subject of
philosophical hell for all eternity. If there's a time for
vaccine mandates, it's now. It's time to vaccinate against these
idea virus superspreaders once and for all. Oh, and I

(01:15:32):
also want to heartily congratulate you later on five decades
of broadcasting. You've been pretty much broadcasting ever since.

Speaker 6 (01:15:40):
I was born. What a milestone.

Speaker 5 (01:15:44):
I'm looking forward to your new book Between the Microphone
and the Bridge us. There won't be one of those,
Jen I can tell you thank you so much.

Speaker 6 (01:15:54):
That was That was exceptional, wasn't it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:59):
Yes, Senda will remind me of the Podium of truth,
Karl Marx and the dentist. So as a producer, thank you,
thank you, and I look forward to seeing you next week.

Speaker 6 (01:16:11):
Oh that'll be good.

Speaker 3 (01:16:15):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (01:16:15):
By the way, Leyton at news talks at me dot
co dot ensaid or Carolyn, she hasn't had a letter
for a while. She gets included Dear Layton, Carolyn, or
dear mister and missus producer. It's nice included anyway, Layton,
that news talks of me dot co dot and said,
or Carolyn with a Y at Newstalks said, be somebody
sent one in with a Y N.

Speaker 5 (01:16:35):
E yes, I get the odd one like that too.

Speaker 2 (01:16:38):
They got the Y.

Speaker 6 (01:16:39):
That's good. I applaud that. See you later, Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:16:53):
Leighton Smith.

Speaker 2 (01:16:55):
Now in the mailroom, missus producer read a letter from
Chris and at the end of it there was an
inclusion and I said that I'd have a look at
it soon as we finished, and I did, and it
has led me to wish to share it with you
because it slots in beautifully with some of the subject
matter of this podcast. Productivity is something that we're hearing

(01:17:19):
an awful lot about we have for years. I know
it's been said already in the podcast, but it seems
to be intensifying and with good cause. So this is
written by Professor Emeritus and fellow of Keble College, Oxford.
His name is Wade Allison, and it's entitled Energy for Productivity.
Energy for Productivity means more than the words would suggest,

(01:17:43):
and it goes like this, starting with a summary, If
the productivity of nations is to increase despite aging and
shrinking populations, a dynamic energy policy with generous provision for
artificial intelligence is needed. The new sources should be energy intensive, controllable,
available twenty four to seven, compact, safe, environmental, secure, reliable,

(01:18:08):
and locatable where required. Sounds perfect, doesn't it. In the past,
energy and productivity increases have accompanied revolutionary strides in understanding,
culture and application. Growing public confidence in nuclear power and
the demand of AI suggests that a new revolutionary energy

(01:18:29):
expansion is imminent. In prehistory, humans learnt how to engage
the energy of fire rather than to flee in fear.
This gave them a level of productivity that distinguished them
from other creatures. Nevertheless, life remained short and miserable, and
a population low. Sources of fuel were restricted, and other

(01:18:50):
forms of energy that humans learned to use were weather
dependent and notoriously unreliable. The Industrial Revolution changed that the
combustion of energy Dense fossil fuels powered engines able to
convert heat energy into mechanical effort. The availability of this
heat and work in quantity, on site and on demand

(01:19:14):
transformed productivity and the quantity of human life. It took
time for the benefits to be realized, but for two
hundred years, political and economic activity has focused on access
to these fuels and the engines that use them. Unfortunately,
fire can be difficult to control. It can catch a
light in a runaway process and even explode, and emissions

(01:19:38):
not only of carbon dioxide, but of carbon soots and
nitrogen oxides too, are discharged in vast quantities into the
atmosphere and the oceans, where they accumulate over periods up
to a century. So the international community has agreed that
the combustion of fossil fuels should be curtailed soon, implicitly

(01:19:59):
while maintaining the world economy. Hence the search for a
cleaner fuel to support higher productivity in the medium and
longer term, ideally hotter than fire, widely available, controllable and
compact and safe. Surprisingly, there is a candidate solution to
this wish list, one that Winston Churchill pointed out already

(01:20:22):
ninety three years ago. Writing in the Strand magazine. He
compared the productivity of human effort coal and nuclear energy.
The coal a man can get in a day can
easily do five hundred times as much work as a
man himself, he wrote, nuclear energy is at least one
million times more powerful. Still, the discovery and control of

(01:20:46):
such sources of power would cause changes in human affairs
incomparably greater than those produced by the steam engine four
generations ago. Though nobody knew how to extract and control
this millionfold energy, in nineteen thirty one, it is explained
as a simple consequence of quantum physics, and already by

(01:21:07):
nineteen fifty four it was safely powering the submarine Nautilus. Unfortunately,
in nineteen forty five nuclear energy had been used as
a weapon, like for gunpowder and T and T earlier,
the increase in destructive energy was received with fear, and
then to the evident danger of blast and fire was

(01:21:28):
added worries over the health effects of radiation. Without any
knowledge to the contrary, this radiation scare story was socially
devastating and rapidly demonized nuclear energy. This had the welcome
effect of discouraging the deployment of nuclear weapons, so that
none has been used since nineteen forty five. Nevertheless, the

(01:21:49):
health threat from radiation on the scale feared is not
confirmed by supporting evidence. If society had overcome this fear,
as it did long ago, when the fear of fire
threatened human advancement, the full benefit of nuclear energy might
have been enjoyed for the past seventy years, but no
attempt was made to explain and convince everyone that radiation

(01:22:11):
and nuclear energy are more easily and safely controlled than fire,
as can be done today. Instead, public apprehension was treated
with regulations designed to minimize personal exposure to nuclear technology
except for the life saving health benefits initiated by Maricuri.

(01:22:32):
These regulations lack any sound scientific basis, an appeal to
a philosophy of unqualified caution. Technically, they encourage over design
and add hugely to the costs and delays of deploying
nuclear power. Until recently, these artificial hurdles were still widely
cited as reasons to discourage nuclear energy as a replacement

(01:22:54):
for fossil fuels. Instead, the instinctive reaction was to revert
to the weak and unreliable sources that depend on the
weather and had proved inadequate before the Industrial Revolution, Deployed
today with modern technology, their voracious appetite for land and
resources adds to their unreliability and negative environmental impact. But

(01:23:19):
the benefits of nuclear power for productivity that Churchill imagined remain,
as do simple reassuring facts, as follows the evacuation zone
at Chernobyl, far from being an uninhabitable desert, is thriving
with wildlife. Nobody was hurt at all by the radiation

(01:23:39):
released in the accidents of Fukushima and Three Mile Island. Overall,
nuclear power has a better safety record than any other source.
Healthy human tissue recovers from an exposure to radiation even
after radiotherapy treatment, with forty thousand times the annual exposure

(01:24:01):
set as safe by ultra cautious regulations. I do that again.
Healthy human tissue recovers from an exposure to radiation even
after radiotherapy treatment, with forty thousand times the annual exposure
set as safe by ultra cautious regulations. Natural radiation in

(01:24:22):
the environment varies by large factors from place to place
around the world, with no adverse health effects for inhabitants.
The world has deluded itself for the past seventy years
that nuclear energy is especially dangerous. The reasons for its
unexpected safety are well understood today, and the public view

(01:24:43):
is gradually changing. Discussion about risks and safety in the environment,
including that radiation does not multiply like infection or fire,
is a matter for schools. The cultural shift will take
a few years, but so also will the wider roll
out of nuclear power. The advanced legislation enacted by President

(01:25:05):
Biden on nine July, with Bipower and Support, brings a
more open policy to nuclear development, deployment, and international engagement. Currently,
nuclear technology offers many plant designs under development, all competing
for permission to build, but held back until now by

(01:25:25):
a risk averse culture. There is room, he concludes, there
is room for considerable optimism that nuclear power will contribute
a major uplift in future productivity, as it could have
earlier if the world had not been scared. There's some
inport from somebody who should be respected for their opinion.

(01:25:47):
Wade Allison, Professor emeritus of Keppel College in Oxford, and
I have a feeling that New Zealand will follow Australia
and start to change its mind, if it hasn't already.

Speaker 3 (01:26:00):
Now.

Speaker 2 (01:26:00):
The outcasts in this discussion the course of the Greens,
who no matter what you present them with as far
as safety is concerned, what new developments are unveiled, they
will stick to their guns, which is probably not which
is probably not quite the right way to frame it,
but it's probably time to drag out a wonderful old

(01:26:21):
phrase that I haven't used for a long time, and
that is that the Greens, if they had their way,
would have us all living in caves and scrubbing ourselves
in the creek with a rock, and that will knock
us out for this week Podcast two hundred and fifty one.
Don't forget if you'd like to comment on anything or
suggest anything, if you are to write to us Latent

(01:26:43):
at newstalks ab dot co dot ziit or Carolyn at
newstalks ab dot co dot enz And as I repeat constantly,
we do enjoy getting your input, so don't hesitate so
that kicks us for touch and we shall be back
very shortly with Podcast two hundred and fifty two. In
the meantime, thank you as always for listening and we'll

(01:27:05):
talk soon.

Speaker 3 (01:27:08):
M hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:27:13):
Thank you for more from News Talk st B. Listen
live on air or online, and keep our shows with
you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.