Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks ed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all
the information, all the debate of us. Now the lighton
Smith podcast Power It by News Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Welcome to podcasts three hundred and six four October fifteen,
twenty twenty five. Now this week's podcast concentrates on geopolitics
and international relations, which will come as no surprise. Whatever
one may have thought of Donald Trump over the course
of this year. Since January twenty one, when he assumed
office for his second presidential term, his true character has
(00:52):
broken through. And there are many cliches, but I'll stay
with the one that I used first off some considerable time,
back cometh the R cometh the man. It's not mine,
I pitched it from whoever first said it, but it's true.
So this week we present two interviews based on the
Middle East and the event that held the world's attention
(01:14):
and still does. Israeli Ambassador Erlin Roth provides his commentary,
garnered from a diplomatic career spread far and wide across
the globe. He is I discovered not just a good speaker.
He is intelligent, philosophical and a nice guy. George Treedman
delivers a variation on the theme derived from substantial experience
(01:36):
in the world of international relations and geopolitics and education.
Both make submissions that deserve our attention. So the format
this week is as follows Ambassador Roth, George Triedman, and
then we wind up with missus producer in the mail room.
But first I have something I want to share with
(01:58):
you very briefly, and that is that the month of
October this year is a very significant one. It was
forty years ago, in October of nineteen eighty five, that
I joined a radio station called one ZB in Auckland.
I'd spent five years in Wellington, I'd moved back to Australia.
I was working in Adelaide until I got a phone
(02:19):
call and gave it some consideration. Are they up to consideration?
So I accepted the consideration, shall we say so? I
thought it was going to be a short period forty years.
If you'd said to me back then, you will be
here in forty years time, I would have laughed in
your face. So why did I stay forty years? Variety
(02:40):
of reasons but one can only say that obviously it
became home. We might talk a little more about it
in the mail room next week with MISSUS producer. Now
in just a moment, Ambassador Ellen Roth, Israeli Ambassador Alan Roth,
(03:15):
it's very good to meet you.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Very nice to be here, especially in a day like that.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Indeed, well, we had a quick chat this morning. It
decided that we would wait until the until the hostages
were being released, so we could at least cover that off.
Now you, I know, we're watching an Israeli channel. I
don't know whether you got the same pictures as the
rest of US. I was all over the television networks,
(03:41):
but settled basically for Fox. But we didn't get to
see something that I thought we would, and that was
some returning hostages.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Hmmm, very interesting.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
And you.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Yeah, I think this was the difference between the Israeli channels.
These early channels showed, between the Israeli channels and the
foreign channels. These Weethi channels were mainly showing the human
stories there. They showed the hostages, you know, the first
(04:15):
photos that were taken off them. They showed the families,
they showed the hundreds of thousands of people that are
cheering all around Israel, even after two years of this
very very, very heavily costing war. And this was really
(04:37):
heartwarming to see the personal, family, national kind of story.
And in parallel to this, it was very interesting to
see on half of the screen the plane of the
US President Donald Trump lending in his were received by
(04:58):
the dignitaries. So on the one hand you saw the men,
and from the other side you saw the happiness and
the cheering of the crowds and of the whole nation.
This was enormous.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
I've not seen applying land and have the red carpet
rolled out right to the door. That was rather impressive.
There's the answer to something that I'm that I don't know,
and that is what on earth was he doing inside
that plane for so long? We were getting quite agitated.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
Well, I know he spoke to an Israeli journalist because
we got some some words out of this conversation, not
too many. But look, he has done the work before,
He's going to do the work afterwards. And I think
that the role that the United States played here is
really a manifestation of the right thing to do. And
(05:55):
I'm very happy that this was achieved through the American
diplomacy and by the American President and the American employees
to the to the region, and that took this very
difficult situation and tried to find solutions and try to
understand what Israel really wants, which.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Is peace, peace and peace. And I think that this
is what this region needs when we see these death
carts in front of us, and we want the peace.
And we were very happy to see the process and
the outcome today.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Let's get to the to the desk squad in a moment.
Have you ever known something to develop and come to
fruition with such success to this point as what we
witness tonight.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
You look, there is no doubt that there are still
are lots of challenges that are awaiting us, even the
you know, even in the midst of the euphoria we
Israeli is. You know, we know this region, We know
what entities exist in this region. Some of them are
nation entities, some of them are organizations, and we know
(07:12):
that the challenges are still with us. But we are
very happy that at least the huge i would say
national emotional human challenge that we had, which is the hostages,
came to a solution. And you know what, when we
(07:33):
know that in a few hours time we're going to
get the corpse of those who were kidnapped and were
murdered and who are not going to return back to
Israel alive, we know that there are challenges still ahead.
And yes, there is a death cult in front of us.
And this is why, in the midst of the happiness
(07:55):
that we have right now in the streets of tel Avision,
if you would see now the television, you will be amazed.
I am in front of a screen in parallel to
our conversation, and I see the people dancing, cheering, shouting, smiles,
link singing, and at the same time we know that
we're going to get twenty eight corps very soon of
dead Israelis that were murdered. So these are the challenges
(08:18):
and the happiness in Parla.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Well, put something in a perspective for me, if you
would there were two two hundred and fifty odd people
who were kidnapped, and yet how many had been released before?
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Well, there were few few occasions in which there were
people were released in the beginning a bit more than
one hundred, and after that one more batch and then
of course it stopped. But yeah, we knew that many
of those who were kidnapped first and foremost were murdered
(08:56):
on the way to Gaza. Some of them were murdered
in Gaza. We knew that not everyone is going to
come back unfortunately, not going to come back to it
are alive. So we knew it. We hoped all the
time that everyone is going to come back and the
stories that we heard or the data that we had
(09:18):
about the fact that some of dad is wrong. But
unfortunately this is reality. And this is why I'm saying
that there are still challenges. This is the region and
this is the cults that we are standing in front.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Seeing that you've raised the challenge question, what is there
and is let me just back up here a second,
because in my channel hopping, what I discovered was that
very few people who were discussing this came out with
anything new. They were all saying the same sorts of things.
Because we'd reach point where so much has been said
(09:52):
and so many questions asked that there wasn't much new
to ask. But what do you think might be the
biggest threat or threats to this not succeeding? And I'm
not trying to be negative, I'm just trying to be
realistic over the next two periods of these three that
have to be worked through.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
I think you are asking an excellent question, because I
think that this is exactly the issue in front of us,
and I will even answer it wider than the question itself.
But first and for firstly the question, there is no
doubt that we should remember that this is only the
first phase. There was a phase before that in which
(10:38):
the Israeli army withdrew within Gaza, within the Gaza Strip
to a certain line, yellow line it was called, and
this was the first movement after that. Now the release
of the hostages, the live hostages, the dead hostages, and
we still have in front of us big challenges like
(11:01):
the need for Hamas to disarm itself and the continuation
of the process. And each one of us read the
twenty points of the Trump President Trump's plan and we
know that they are very strong, very powerful, or very
problematic steps ahead. But permit me to why don't it
(11:26):
Whyden the scope for a second? I think that what
we see is a part of this problematic in which
you have countries like Israel and few others, for example,
the abram Accord countries who chose a certain path of cooperation,
of peace, of agreements, of getting something good together, of
(11:48):
building something good together. And we see in front of
us those like Iran and its proxies all around, and
not only them, who chose another path. And I think
that this is the main issue in front of us,
beyond the question of the two phases ahead in Gaza.
And this is when I spoke about challenges d S
(12:12):
is the issue. The issue is how do we change
the trajectory, the vector of what's happening in the Middle
East towards this cooperation, peaceful kind of arrangements and not
the desire for death as I called it million times
already death cult that is contradicting this peaceful direction.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
What to quotes you something that was written in twenty
fourteen by Matty Friedman, independent journalist, out of the heading
of Israel and the Middle East, the Israel Story. Is
there anything left to say about Israel and Gaza? Newspapers
this summer have been full of little else. Television viewers
see heaps of rubble and plumes of smoke in their sleep.
(12:59):
A representative article from a recent issue of The New
Yorker described the summer's events by dedicating one sentence each
to the horrors Nigeria and Ukraine, four sentences to the
crazed genocidals of Isis and the rest of the article
thirty sentences to Israel and Gaza. What changed between that period?
(13:24):
It is a very interesting article, by the way, What
changed that from that period that he was writing about
to eleven years later?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
But now it's not thirty phrases, it's seventy five phrases
about Israel and this kind of nonfur treatment that Israel
is getting time in again, time in again, this kind
of manipulation of facts, this kind of taking Israel, portraying,
(13:55):
you know, changing the whole story and the whole narrative.
We have here a democracy that is fighting an existential
threat by a terror organization, that is driving by a
terror cult, and unfortunately the story is flipped over one
hundred and eighty percent, and the thirty phrases that you
(14:17):
speak about talk about in twenty fourteen became seventy five
phrases in our times ten a bit more than ten
years later. I think that the treatment that Israel is
getting is unbelievably wrong and non fair. And again people
forget or people want to forget or the media wants
(14:41):
to portray it, portray the whole story upside down again.
Instead of a democracy fighting for its life, they portray
as well as the bad guy. And this is the story.
It's the same story, but it was magnified tenfold.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
But Israel has had to tolerate that for some considerable time.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Yeah, is weel tolerating it. And by the way, on
the same time and in parallel, look how many Israeli achievements,
what contribution Israel is doing to the world in whatever.
Just give me a field and I will show you
whether in high tech, in innovation, in agriculture, in water
management and environment, in every possible field of technology and
(15:28):
non technology, you will find Israel is trying to contribute
in parallel to the unfair treatment and in parallel to
these challenges and threats that we have. And unfortunately, mainly
the media is trying to portray Israel as a one
story nation, as one issue nation, and usually a negative one,
(15:50):
magnifying its ten fold. And this is very wrong, not
just because it is anti is well because as I said,
it is changing the vector from a cooperation, peaceful vector
to the vector of war. And this is something that
(16:11):
I'm very sorry to hear time in again, what is it? Sorry?
Speaker 2 (16:14):
What is it then that the media and I think
we mostly talk newspapers when we mentioned the media in
this context, but the broad media, if you like, what
is it that they don't get or get wrong? If
you want about Israel.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
I think that you don't get Israel at all. You know,
when you visit Israel, when you see, for example, the
people walking in the streets, you see all colors, you
hear so many languages, you see so many restaurants that
show that there is a magnificent mixture. I call it
(16:53):
salad of nations and cultures in Israel that live together,
that work together, that create together. By the way, not
all of them are Jews. Jews and Muslims and Christians
and Bahai's and Jews and everything all together. And unfortunately
the media doesn't show this. Why don't they show it?
(17:15):
That's a question not for me, but I know the
end result is that they prefer not to show it.
They prefer to choose only the story of the war.
And even there they flipped the story upside down and
Israel becomes the bad guy, as I said, and not
the one who is trying to reach peace and is
(17:38):
trying to contribute to the international community, which is the
factual story.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Where have you been positioned in the world.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
I began many years ago in Africa, in Cameroon. I
served many times in Europe in the European Union, a
few times in London. I served in the Arab world,
in Jordan, I served in Norway, and now I'm here
in this beautiful, calm country yours.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Well. The reason for that sort of out of context question,
when I asked it, I did have a context and
the question to follow. I just wanted to establish the
breadth of your experience. And the question to follow is
why is it that in so many parts of the
world you have people like we've tolerated is the wrong word,
(18:33):
people who we've had to put up with like we
are at this particular point of time, disrupting life in
capital cities, in major cities, getting in people's faces, being obnoxious, nasty,
and if I may say so, uneducated and ignorant.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
That's a question that's not an excellent a double excellent
question if this term exists in English at all. But
I would say that that's a question that the societies
and mainly the media has to answer how is this possible?
And for me, it's an enigma. I can tell you
(19:18):
that I don't know the answer to it, but I
know that I see some of the outcomes of this
are very horrificing my view. The rise of anti Semitism,
for example, in some places is horrible. This ancient beast
came back to haunt us, and the thing, the fact
(19:40):
that you have mentioned is one of the reasons to this,
to this, to this very sad thing to happen. What
is the reason for this? I think every society has
to ask its own questions internally, like we're doing as well,
and we do soul searching time and again, time and again.
I'm not trying you to, you know, to lecture anyone.
(20:03):
I'm just answering a question, which is a very good one,
because you have just boken played the structure story in
many countries in the world, and I yes, they saw
it in some of the places they've served in.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
You know, I first came across it when I was
quite young, probably thirteen, reading comics and reading about the programs.
You see, I was a very big Robin Hood fan,
and in that era there was there were plenty of
(20:35):
Jewish people in England and that's how they got introduced
to me and told stories, stories in comic form that
you wouldn't find today because they were well balanced. So
it has been around for a heck of a long time.
What do you think after this event today and the
(20:59):
path it follows, hopefully in the near future. We'll get
to the later future in a short while, But what
do you think that the Israel haters will do now?
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Well, I'm afraid that there are some Israel haters and
the jew Jewish people haters that will continue whatever whatever
facts or stories or things that we will see will happen.
I am afraid that some of them are not going
(21:33):
to change. But I do hope, I do hope that
the big portion of the societies, especially the enlightened societies
and enlightened doesn't have to be only the Western societies.
It's people everywhere. People who open their brains, open their minds,
are ready to hear another story, are trying to think
who is contributing, who is not contributing, Whether the Jewish world,
(21:58):
whether Israel, whether Israel is the live abroad, who out
of them is really contributing to the world. Contributing to
other societies is and this will be the yardstick. People
will measure their reratitude towards other peoples and Israel in particular,
(22:19):
according to what Israel is trying to do, according to
what is Well has achieved. You know, you spoke about history.
My family came from Europe. I had part of my
family forever in Israel for hundreds of years, but the
big portion of my family, of my ancestors, came from
Europe after the Second World War, and they came after
the Holocaust, and they came to a country that was
(22:43):
not really very i would say advanced. And look look
at Israel today, and this is what people have to see.
When I served in Africa, in Cameroon, in Ethiopia, in Burundi,
I've served in all these countries. I've done projects in
all these countries. Countries people were amazed by the Israeli technology.
(23:06):
But the things that Israel brought their enabled people not
just to live better, to live, to have clean water,
to have health, to have education. This should be the
yardstick to the way they measure. There is very society
and the Jewish people. This is my view. I do
(23:26):
hope that this will be happening. If you ask me
you bought. Are the chances difficult?
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Yes? But there is a lot of difficult about how
many practicing Jews are there in Israel any idea.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Look, we are around nine million people as a whole,
maybe ten million people as a whole. I would guess
that there is around two million. But again, practicing in
Judaism is a very difficult question, because the question is
whether you know It's like in the Christian world, do
(24:05):
you go every Sunday to the church or the Jews?
Do you go every Saturday to the synagogue, or do
you keep Kosher rules, or do you driving Saturday in Shabbat?
Or do you just like myself, go every now and
then to a synagogue without having a yarmulcan on your
head during the regular days, et cetera. So practicing is
(24:29):
a very difficult question.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Well, here is another difficult question. Maybe I've said for
a long time that if you don't have a grasp
on biblical history, then you're going to have a very
tough time understanding the present.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
I totally agree. I totally agree, and I think it
is applicable not just for practicing Jews. It is applicable
for non religious or secular whatever they call themselves a Jews,
because yeah, you can read the Bible as a is
a script, as a religious script, and it is very deep,
(25:13):
very interesting, very important in my view. But you can
read it as a history book. And you know, you
don't even have to read the Bible for this. You
can just go to Jerusalem and touch with your hand
the whaling wall, and you touch the Old Temple, the
walls of the Old Temple from more than two thousand
(25:35):
years ago, and you see history in front of you.
And I totally agree. Without understanding this, it is difficult
to understand what's happening today, and it's difficult to foresee
what will happen in the future.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
I spent much of today reading reading two or three books,
parts of them two in particular. The first one was
and tell me whether you read it or not, The
Son of Hames. Yeah, Massa Hassan Yusuf, Yeah you read?
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
What did you take from it? Let me let me
just before you do, sorry for those who don't know.
A gripping account of terror, betrayal, political intrigue, and unthinkable choices.
And the individual who wrote this book, The Son of
Hamas Mossem Hessen Yusef was the son of one of the.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Original founders leaders of Hamas.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Yes, thank you, thank you, thank you. So so what
did you get out of it?
Speaker 3 (26:46):
I got out of it exactly what I said before
when you asked me what do I expect to happen.
I think that this guy, this very brave son of
the Hamas leader, was raised, was educated in a certain way,
a way of hatred, a way of let's kill Jews,
let's massacre, and let's destroy the state of Viseral, the
(27:08):
Jewish state. And he saw other facts, and he saw values,
and he measured everything from that day on through who
is holding dear the values that he believed in, the life,
believing in contribution, believing in seeing positive, believing in trying
(27:32):
to build a positive future. And he said, thank you
very much. I saw what is the difference between these
two cults. I prefer to support the cult. It is
the cult of life, the cult of contribution, the cult
of let's have good life, and not the cult of death.
So I think that he is an emblem. He is
(27:55):
the best possible example of someone who was born to
a certain way of life, which was very devastating one
and saw facts and value enjoined the other side because
he believed that those are the right values. I think
it's an unbelievable leaving example of such change.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
It's interesting. I just opened the book and started reading.
I like doing that. I don't mean from the beginning,
I mean just wherever the pages fell. And the chapter
that I'm going to read tomorrow is a vision for
the Mass written in two thousand and five. I won't
even started now, but I was triggered. I had this
(28:43):
book on my shelf and I was triggered into pulling
it off because somebody sent me a video of him,
the author, making a commentary somewhere on a interview show
about where things were at in his head as opposed
(29:03):
to where things are at on the ground or have
been up to date, and it triggered me big time.
So I thought it's time to have a better look
at the book. The other one I was looking at.
The other one I was looking at is the Anti
Israel Agenda Inside the Political War of the Jewish State
(29:25):
on the Jewish State by Alex Rivchen, who was, if
I remember correctly, Hungarian born Jewish of course, but moved
to Sydney when he was a child and has grown
very successful in the legals figure as well as well
as doing quite a bit of shall we say, commentary.
(29:51):
If you were going to recommend the book to anyone
who wanted to know more about the issues, the problems,
even the Hamas, the Israel scenario, who's the one that
you'd recommend?
Speaker 3 (30:11):
And of all, I didn't read the second one. I
didn't read Rivkin's book. But I can answer you very true, Frill.
And because of one word or one number that you've stated,
you've said that the Sons of Ramas, the chapter you're
going to read is going to speak about two thousand
and five. And I think the two thousand and five
(30:34):
is a very important year for everyone that wants to
understand not just what is happening now, but the whole,
As I said, the bigger thing, the thirty thousand feet
view of what's happening now in the Middle East and
what are the challenges and the prospects in the Middle East.
In two thousand and five, there was a belief, as
(30:56):
Shimon Peres said at the time, the late Prime Minister
and Foreign Minister of Israel said, Amask can be a
sorry Gaza can become the Singapore, the Middle East. The
notion was that if we take the prescription that the
world gave us, get out of the territories, take your settlers,
(31:17):
take your army, take everyone outside, just leave them alone,
and it will be rosy. The world is going to
help it. And if something bad is going to happen,
that's okay. We will deal with this. This was the
notion in two thousand and five. We all know what
happened twenty years later. There was no peace, There was
(31:37):
no Singapore of the Middle East. Unfortunately, death tunnels rockets
for years and years and years, and education for incitement
against the Jewish state time and again, time and again
that resulted or came too, this tragic day of the
(31:59):
seventh of October twenty twenty three. So when you read
the story of the Son of Hamas, you get both
the historical notion in two thousand and five and the result,
all the outcome we saw in twenty twenty three seventh
of October, And you understand the Israeli psyche of today
(32:19):
saying that we are going to be very cautious. We
are not going to let any organization like Ramas with
such cruelty, in such philosophy being raised again to the
level that it can attack is well. And this is
embedded in the story of the Son of Ramas in
(32:41):
this book. So I totally agree that this book, or
I would say that this book is a very important one,
both in showing the thirty thousand feet view of the
Middle East and secondly in the question of someone who
really saw other notes and other values and decided he
wants to join in two very fundamental important issues in
(33:04):
the Middle East and in the Israeli historian future.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Let's get back to back to Gaza. How many people
are there? Well, hang on, how many people were there
in Gaza?
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Two million? Around two million?
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Did they fit comfortably? I don't know. Did they fit
because it's not a big place. Did they fit in comfortably?
Speaker 3 (33:31):
You know, there are places who are even more dense,
I think than Gaza. We spoke about Singapore, Hong Kong.
I don't know how many was the population there, but yeah,
there were some cities, there were agricultural areas or possible
land for agricultural areas, et cetera. Yes, yes, it's very dense,
but you know, Israel is dance as well. One of
(33:53):
the more densier countries in the world.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
The ordinary folk of Gaza. If I can draw a
conclusion that there are the ordinary type of Gaza, how
would you describe their politics? How would you describe their
attitude to the environment in which they have been living
up until recently.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Before the war?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Yeah? Well, how many wars were there before up until
the point when they all had to scaper get out?
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Well, I don't know what is their perception. I just
know that they were given, as I said, a possibility
of creating a very peaceful and a successful entity there,
and unfortunately they chose democratically twenty years ago, an organization
(34:59):
that chose to take the power, take the power in
Gaza bye by force, and this is what they got.
So I think they chose it unfortunately, and then the
incitement that continued against Israel did the rest of the job.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
If they if they had a free election, now this
is an unfair question, but if they had an election
now and Harmas was running, and so were one or
two other crowds, do you think that the average voter
would desert her mass or would they be spooked into
voting for it? Again?
Speaker 3 (35:44):
I don't know. You know, to answer this question, you
really have to be a prophet, but I would say
something that is based on something that happened today and yesterday.
Mainly today, there were fights today in Gaza. There were
people in Gaza that were unhappyy with Hamas and took
(36:04):
weapons into their hands and were trying to liberate themselves
from Hamas, and Hamas sent its squads, its platoons in
order to crash this kind of trying to be different,
trying to create different environment. I'm talking about the last
(36:25):
forty eight or seventy two hours, and there were dozens
of casualties in these clashes. So it shows me that
there are people in Gaza that want to live differently,
that might choose another way. And I do hope, I
really hope that this is the trajectory that we will see.
(36:48):
But in order for this to happen, we have to
get rid of the organization that doesn't let it happen.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Haramas, Actually, let me jump a little further afield. After
what you just said. There was a time not that
long ago in Iran when they what would they call
the Green the Greens who rebelled and had had the
(37:17):
administration of the day in America back to them. Then things
since then may have turned out to be quite different
to what they are or what they did turn out
to be. So it was a matter of leadership, It
was a matter of courage that was missing, and that
(37:37):
has been rectified. It appears, at least for the moment,
in a different place in Gaza, could the same thing happen.
Do you think in Iran now?
Speaker 3 (37:50):
I do hope, I do hope that we will see
a different I would say, regime altitude philosophy in Iran.
I think that Iran today is not a force for good,
not for the whole region. I think we saw time
and again, time and again, think that what we see
in the Iranian effort to infiltrate and to impose its
(38:16):
radical ideas and terror in the Middle East is the
most destabilizing factor that exists today. You know, Israel is
fighting proxies of Iran for many years already Chrisabella Hamas
who is now all of them attacked us, all of
(38:37):
them declared their intention of annihilate the state of Isel.
So I do hope that we will see you ask
me again if this is feasible, I would be. I
will come back to my previous answer and say that
I'm not a prophet, I don't know. I'm just saying
that there is no doubt that in this struggle between
(39:00):
those who want to advance forward towards something good in
the Middle List like the abram Accord, countries like those
countries that have good relations with Israel, have peaceful relations
with Israel. I've served for three years in such a
country in Jordan, a lot of disagreements on many issues,
and still cooperation because we understand that we have to
(39:23):
live together in this region and solve problems trying to
solve problems together. I hope that this notion, this direction,
this vector, will will emerge as the victor and not
the Iranian way of doing things in the Middle East.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Right now, there is an answer to this question, as
obvious I think. But well I think I know, but
people still don't understand it. Why did the surrounding Arab
countries reject, on two or three occasions at the very least,
to take gardens into their country. Why have they refused
(40:04):
constantly to have anything to do with immigration with as.
Speaker 3 (40:11):
I think. I hope it's a polite answer, but I
think that the answer is in the embedded in the
question itself. I mean as long as the gazen I
would say, philosophy of analyzing things and doing things is
this negative notion in this incitement against anything everything. It
(40:35):
is this notion of let's fight instead of let's build
something together, as long as it is, by the way,
rejection of peace with Israel time and again, time and again,
they were given numerous occasions or possibilities to end the
conflict and to reach whatever they want to reach and
(40:56):
to give peace and security to Israel, which is what
we want. As long as they don't do it, this
is the answer, or this is the the fact that
you were stating, the Arab countries do not want to
have this kind of cooperation with them or connection with them.
It's true. That's reality. It's not I do not invent it,
(41:18):
and you did not invent This is a reality, and
it's very easy to understand. For the time being, as
long as they continue with this negative attitude, this is
going to be the future.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
So I'm seeing faces that I'm familiar with in this
country as I speak, thinking of people who have for
whatever reason, fallen into the trap of being Israeli haters,
of being Palestinian supporters, of demonstrating constantly, and this is
(41:56):
only part of their act because they're into anything that's
sort of anti West. I suppose they and they have
a great time expressing it, including some politicians who are
pretty discussed. Why why is it that they have been
sucked into believing things that essentially untrue?
Speaker 3 (42:19):
You know, I'm a diplomat, I'm an ambassador, I'm a
guest in this country. Again, beautiful in calm country.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Okay, so talk about Australia.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
I will just say that I would have asked myself,
and again I'm talking about myself. Yeah, I would have
asked myself, how is it possible that all the aid
I gave, the millions, the billions I gave for years
and years, for decades to the Palestinians, to un organizations
that should have taken the Palestinians out of this kind
(42:55):
of negative way, all this money, all these resources, all
these taxpayers' money that was sent there by UNRAH and
by other organizations, didn't achieve anything and brought us in
the end to the seventh of October. Because, for example,
the canals and the rockets that Hamas built were built
(43:18):
with some cash, some money that was given, not schools,
not hospitals, and unfortunately this money, part of this money
was given by good intentions of people, of individuals, and
of governments. And I would have asked myself, why am
I part of this?
Speaker 5 (43:39):
Now?
Speaker 3 (43:39):
The answer to it, I don't know. Each country and
each organization should ask itself the same question. I think,
how did we reach that this is happening with the
huge amounts of money that I've dedicated to this task.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
He is a very very short quote her messa genocidal phonetics,
with whom any negotiation is a fool's errand the victory
is down to both Trump and Yahoo. You don't have
to approve of either of these men. You can be
appalled by many things Trump does. You can hold Netunyaho
are ultimately responsible for the flawed strategy that allowed October
(44:19):
seven to occur. But this achievement is theirs, and it's fascinating.
I'm told that even Hillary Clinton today said that well
had some words of shall we say praise for Donald Trump?
And then you had the leader of the opposition from
(44:40):
Venezuela who won the Peace Prize, who also today or
in the last twenty four hours or so, has said
he deserved it.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
Well, exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
So the future depends greatly on the leadership and the positivity,
not just the money that gets poured into Gaza to
rebuild it. I have no idea how father, I'll go
with that rebuilding before it stopped, because I can't help.
(45:16):
I can't help but feel that that's such a massive
job that something will come along and interfere with it
somewhere along along the way. What say you.
Speaker 3 (45:29):
So far? I totally agree with the notion that something
very big was done in front of our eyes. There
is no doubt. Look, we saw the hostages coming back.
Now we have prospects for something that is good. Let's
assume that we have the best case scenario happening in
(45:50):
the next few hours and days and weeks. I think
this was done, yes, by the President of the United States,
by again his employees, by Prime Minister Natanyao, that was
going against very strong opposition in many places. And I
think that for this, all of us, irrespective of what
(46:15):
we think personally, is human beings. I think that this
is an unbelievable achievement. So I totally agree with the
first I would say quotes that you have just quoted.
As I said, I don't know what will happen. I
(46:36):
just know that I wish you you you know, how
are they going to build Gaza. It's not just what
building they are going to build, whether they're going to
build it nicely, beautiful neighborhoods, wonderful schools, buildings. The question
is what are they going what is going to be
(46:58):
the perception of what they're going to believe in to
teach the children, et cetera. And again, if it's going
to continue to be this cult of death, that's cult,
then we are coming to to to We're just doing
a circle back to step them of one. I do
(47:19):
hope that something will change in the perceptions. I do
hope that once Harmas is being sent out of Gaza,
once Gaza is demilitarized, once the people that are really
thinking about benefiting their own population, their own children, the
next generation. I'm a father, I'm a grandfather. I look
(47:39):
on my next generation today. I don't think of myself anymore.
I think, how do I make small step forward in
order to make my grandchildren live in a better world,
in a better as well, in a better If this will,
notion will be prevailing both in Gaza and in the
Palestinian authority. We have a chance. So it's not just
(47:59):
a question of money and what buildings. It depends on
what are you going to teach in the schourse, what
are you going to teaching the in the streets, and
what are going to be your words before you will
ask people to put the your ticket in the ballots.
(48:20):
These are the important things that I do hope will
change and will might bring us to a better future.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Everybody will be looking seriously and well focused on the
When I say everybody, I mean far more people than
have done in the past, on the situation as it unfolds,
as it develops, and I guess, apart from those hard
heads that we discussed earlier, everyone will be hoping that
(48:49):
it that it goes well. Does it mean do you
think that not a mess but the teachings of killing
people that the kids, the little kids have have been
dealt over the over the over the years, and we've
all seen the videos of them with their with their
guns and bullet belts and things and playing games and
(49:11):
what have you. But very seriously, do you think it
will be relatively simple for them to eliminate that? In
other words, you just mentioned parents who want their kids
to go to good schools or just get an education
would be a start, uh and to and to learn
more about life outside what they've been living in so far,
(49:35):
do you think that do you think that that is
possible in the next ten years.
Speaker 3 (49:40):
The short answer is a cautious yes, a very cautious yes.
And I will say why. I think that hope You
use the word hope. Hope is very important. I'm an
optimistic guy in the end. In all my forty years
the diplomatic Corps, I was optimistic. And this is this
(50:02):
is the way you achieve things. This is the way
you achieve agreements that you didn't believe you can. It's
a trad et cetera. But on the same time, I'm
a huge believer in deeds, and I think that what
we see now, for example, is a real effort to
get read, to have to have to do deeds, to
(50:24):
get rid of terrorists, to get rid of the bad guys,
in order to put to open the door to exactly
what you've just said here, to try and to see
whether in the next ten years we can do what
we ISRAELI is hope that will be done. A change
of the trajectory a change of the vector, moving aside
(50:48):
forty five degrees or even one hundred and eighty degrees,
in order to enable the kids not just to go
to school to have good education, but not to have
their books that are teaching incitement against Jews. How many
Jews would you kill? If you will kill three Jews
today and force yous tomorrow is incitement. If this is
(51:09):
the you will know that it's seven, but it's seven
killed that Jews. So if the schools will begin to change,
and as I said, if the perception will change, we
have a chance that in the next ten years we
will see significant change, as you have alluded to. If
we will not do deeds, we will just hope and
(51:33):
we will let the bad guys stay there and continue
what they did until today. Pay for sleigh, you know,
we pay you because you kill Jews and we teach
incitement in our school books, paid by good countries that
really have good intentions. Then we will go nowhere. We
will stay in the same place where we are today,
(51:55):
which is not a very good one.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
What do you think is the next place on the
planet that deserves a similar attention?
Speaker 3 (52:06):
Oh I said. I served in Africa, for example, and now,
I don't want to speak for the African countries. It's
not for me. But I'm speaking really from the depths
of my heart. You know. I served there. It was
my first love in the diplomatic service in Cameroon, and
as I said, I served afterwards. I visited many times,
(52:27):
and I did projects in other countries in Africa. And
I think that there is so much Africa is just
a symbol for me. It's not the continent itself or
the people or the I think they're doing tremendous job
to get up and to change. But there are so
many things that are happening in the world. Wars over tea,
(52:48):
trials by good people, to take whole societies up. And
I think that instead of talking the whole time about
this small democracy in the Middle East and trying to
portray as the worst is the villain of the neighborhood,
but to take all this energy, to take most of
(53:09):
this money and to try to do good elsewhere, not
just with people who have death cults. I think this
will bring the world to a much better place. By
the way Israel is doing this. Even during the war,
we continued to have our aid programs everywhere. We continue
(53:30):
to send hundreds of trainees to Israel to study what
we excel in, which is agriculture and water and cyber
and other things, innovation and high tech. And we do
it because we really believe in it. In the midst
of this horrible war that we didn't start, we continue
(53:52):
this because this is exactly an answer to your question.
This is exactly what we believe should be done elsewhere
in the world, and the Middle East needs attention, there
is no doubt. But not the bad guys in the Middleists.
They have to be thrown out. And yeah, all the resources,
so most of the resources would be going elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (54:14):
I'll make this the last question, although there's plenty more.
Do you think that George Soros is having a good
day to day?
Speaker 4 (54:25):
You know, George Soros is a Hungarian Jew and my
origin is Hungarian, so I can say only I wish
to talk to everyone on this planet.
Speaker 2 (54:38):
How how long do you have in your time here?
Speaker 3 (54:43):
I have two more years. I came for three years,
I've almost done a whole year, and so I have
two I have two years and two months.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
Do you do Do you do many speaking engagements?
Speaker 3 (54:58):
Yes, I'm trying to do as many as possible. I'm
going all around the country. I'm speaking to people, to congregations,
to everyone, and it wants to here to talk to
put things on the table, even to disagree with the
Israeli ambassador is more than invited to talk to me.
Speaker 2 (55:17):
Always, Ambassador Rath. It's been a great pleasure talking with you.
Thank you, and I would encourage you to talk to
as many people as possible. You're a very good speaker,
you're a good man, and you're an honest man. Oh,
all of these things, all of these things I have
assumed in the last fifteen minutes, aside that we've been talking.
Speaker 3 (55:42):
Thank you very much, Layton. Wonderful questions and I enjoyed
very much, and I do hope to talk to you
in the future on other issues as well.
Speaker 2 (55:51):
Be my guest.
Speaker 3 (55:52):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (56:01):
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symptoms persist, see your health professional. Farmer Broker Auckland. George
(57:07):
Readman is the check i'min and founder of Geopolitical Futures,
so prior to that, of course, he established stratfor almost
thirty years ago, back in ninety six, and it's been
a very interesting period. Very good to have you back
on the podcast. Under the circumstances especially, let me invite
you to set up here a little background as to
(57:31):
how we got to where things happened yesterday.
Speaker 6 (57:35):
Well, all this had to do with the fact that
Palestine was a province of Turkey during World War One,
Britain and Turkey were at war with each other. The
British Foreign Minister Balfour made a declaration that he supports
a Jewish homeland in Palestine. He said that to both
(57:56):
padic sort of the Turks, and also to create a
division inside of Germany that had at the First World
War a lot of Jews living there, hoping that would help.
He then walked away and forgot about it. After World
War Two and the sympathy for the Jews, the Balfour
Decoration was announced. The United Nations voted Israel into existence,
(58:19):
but never bothered to be present to make it happen,
so basically left the Jews and the Muslims to work
this out. A Typically the United Nations move that all
the good wishes and no intent to get involved, which.
Speaker 2 (58:35):
Is what's been going on ever since.
Speaker 6 (58:37):
Yeah, Israel is a desperately vulnerable country. At its widest point,
it's eighty miles deep. At its narrowest point, or Ahmas attacked,
it's nine miles deep. Any attack that works can destroy Israel.
So Israel is a very aggressive country. The Palestinians, however,
(58:58):
were completely betrayed because no one made any conditions, any possibilities.
They were just simply driven out of Israel on the
borders that UN created, and then the Jordanians came in
and took over the West Bank what was supposed to
be Palestine, and they never had a nation.
Speaker 3 (59:19):
So you have.
Speaker 6 (59:21):
Betrayed people, profoundly betrayed the Palestinians and a desperately afraid people,
the Israelis that are subplementing their fears with being very aggressive.
And so this was just another episode in the story.
Speaker 2 (59:38):
You mentioned Jordan, and I have a question about Jordan.
We hear very little of it, certainly not involved in
any in any wars or battles at all of recent times.
How do they how do they avoid all this? I mean,
their proximity is obviously rather close.
Speaker 6 (59:57):
Yes, On the other hand, they're very careful not to
allow major forces of the Palestinians of their groups into Jordan.
They generally do what they have to do to keep
them out, whereas other nations like Lebanon can't and don't.
So they're very careful not to be drawn into this,
and to a great extent a corporate Israel. The problem
(01:00:20):
is that, in various ways that nobody remembers, they were
the runs responsible for their not being a Palestinian state,
because at that time, back in nineteen forty eight, they
evaded Some of this justifies anything that's happening now, but
explains that the United Nations created a situation which it
took no responsibility for and was obvious to anyone looking
(01:00:43):
at it couldn't work.
Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
And I have to ask a side by a question
on that. There's been plenty of move for America to
withdraw from the UN, not just America, other countries have
considered it's in the past two and quite frankly, I
think it'll be a damn good idea. What say you?
Speaker 6 (01:01:03):
Well, it gives a chance for losers and presidential elections
to get a job going to the UN. And on
the whole it's a harmless organization because no one takes
it seriously. The idea that it was going to manage
the world in some way is long dead. It's now
a place you send failed politicians to be happy.
Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
It's a rather expensive exercise, though, isn't it funding it
if nobody if nobody cares about it.
Speaker 6 (01:01:30):
A lot of apartments are let in Manhattan in New York. Uh,
these ambassadors, they pay a lot of money, They are
on government time.
Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
It's an argument that that I can't argue with. So
prior to yesterday, the events took place, as best as
I'm aware, over a period of about a week or
was that just the public face of it. Either way,
this is something that came together, something was inspired, It
came together with virtually everybody behind it. Virtually.
Speaker 6 (01:02:02):
How come, well, for one thing, Trump hit Iran. He
hit Iran hard, not because he was necessarily pro Israeli,
because he didn't won nine to eleven. He was afraid
of a nuclear weapon being sailed into New York Harbor.
Speaker 3 (01:02:20):
That was his reason.
Speaker 6 (01:02:22):
But when he showed that he was willing to do this,
all of the Islamic countries started thinking about the whole situation.
Gutter in particular, but so many other countries. They were
thinking the United States was playing a major role in
the area. They did not want to tick them off,
and they started collaborating. That was really the moment that
(01:02:42):
this started. And then it became a question of would
Hamas get in well. The attack on Gaza was designed
brutally to destroy Hamas. It effectively did that. No Arab
countries that came to their aid now that Hamas was crippled,
and that was filed up an attack on the headquarters
(01:03:05):
in Gutter when they killed the leadership. After that, basically
it became possible, like any good negotiation, it's good to
carry a baseball bat in with you and use it.
Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
Your suggestion that, if I've got it correct, is that
Hamas was set up in this On this occasion.
Speaker 6 (01:03:30):
Hamas was trapped. It never expected to be successful, or
it wasn't the attack. It never expected the kind of
response Israel gave. But they attacked at the point where
Israel was nine pounds nine miles wide. They misunderstood the
degree to which ISRAELI to do it. They then fought
in the war that they thought would have the Arab
(01:03:52):
countries mobilized around them. The Arab countries kept their distance.
They did know how to stop the war. Israel didn't
want to stop the war and have a story.
Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
How much did the Abraham Accords have to do was
the attitude taken by the other Arab countries.
Speaker 6 (01:04:11):
Well, the other Arab countries have much greater interests in
the world than the Palestinians, and they've always shown that
what it emerged was the possibility of an Arab world wealthy,
particularly in the Dulf States, wealthy in Saudi Arabia, isolating
(01:04:31):
and destroying Iran, with the United States supporting it. The
Abram Accords was basically saying, look, we know Saudi Arabia
has close relationship with Israel. They do a lot of
intelligence sharing, They have the same words. They're scared of
people like Hamas as the Israelis are with less capability
(01:04:51):
of fighting them. So the Abraham Accord was designed to
create a basically a economic system kind of like the EU,
where the Israelis and their technological power and wealth and
Saudis came together and were very attractive to the other
(01:05:14):
Arab countries. At the same time, there had to be
a settlement on this war. And one of the reasons
that Hamas really was not liked in many Arab countries
is that it was a Hamas attack that undermined those accords.
They wanted to have closer relationships under the table. They
had very good relationships, many of them. There were these
(01:05:37):
groups like Hamas that were opposed to this, and it
is not fully known and by most people just how
deeply the Saudis and the Israelis were evolved with each
other that had common enemies, And it is not clear
how deeply the Israelis were evolved with the Gutter, the
UAE and other countries in that region. So even before
(01:05:57):
then there was relationships. The Abraham Accords were designed to
make them official, and they would have worked except for
this war.
Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
So you've introduced a new pronunciation of kata as we
say in this part of the world. Say it again for.
Speaker 3 (01:06:11):
Me, gotter.
Speaker 6 (01:06:13):
Okay, that gutter, but that's the way we say it.
Speaker 3 (01:06:17):
Well, called cutter.
Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
As as you like it, the President doesn't. So, seeing
i've mentioned him. Out of one hundred, what percentage of
success can be attributed to Donald Trump.
Speaker 6 (01:06:33):
I would say eighty percent, in the sense that his
very unpredictability was as scared of the Israelis and finally
scared of a mass. I mean, the Israelis really not
want to make this piece. They wanted to destroy a mass.
The price was rising, and the US made it clear
(01:06:53):
to the Israelis, We're not going to pay for this.
Speaker 3 (01:06:56):
Okay.
Speaker 6 (01:06:57):
That put them in a bad position because they needed
American sport to be able to do it. So what
Trump did was what any good strategies does. He took
the situation as it is pointed out to both sides
that we know each of you are in deep trouble
(01:07:18):
and that we're going to walk away and let you
kill each other. This frightened Hamas. But also there was
deep divisions inside of Israel which were closed because Trump
deviand so it was a very subtle game that he played,
a very complex game. But this was his game.
Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
It's not the only time he's played a hand like that.
This is just the biggest question that I've pondered before,
is his unpredictability must have a life cap. How long
could he continue to deal with matters along the lines
that he does unpredictably at at various strengths and keep
(01:07:59):
succeeding or getting away with it if you want.
Speaker 6 (01:08:02):
Sally, he's very predictable in the sense that what he
wants is to reduce the America and military exposure overseas. Remember,
the Middle East was an area supported by the Soviets,
the Egyptians, Assyrians, they were all Soviet allies. We got
involved in it because of the Cold War, and he
wanted to get away from the Cold War in.
Speaker 3 (01:08:23):
Europe and everything else.
Speaker 6 (01:08:24):
He also wanted to get involved, not involved in economic
problems overseas. It was terrorists. So when we look at
the way he approaches foreign policy, it has to minimize
the American military exposure, maximize economic benefits, and in his view,
the wars that are being waged in danger that he
(01:08:45):
wants to settle them with out sending troops. Same th
the Ukraine.
Speaker 2 (01:08:50):
Right, speaking of overseas postings and developments, is it Utah
that is going to was already has established a base
for Kata for pilots training, at least at this point
of time. That's that's what it's for. Who knows what
(01:09:12):
what could happen in the end. This is this is
something that obviously Trump has agreed with hexath Is, the
Minister for War, has Secretary for War has has been
driving it along with some others. But there is a
lot of opposition to it. Is it not a stupid
thing to do?
Speaker 3 (01:09:31):
Well?
Speaker 6 (01:09:31):
Remember Central Command of the United States are United States
operates in gutter.
Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
Yeah, that's but that's that's that's all right, that's that's
to their advantage, our advantage if you want. But when
you when you allow the other lot in, that's a
whole different picture.
Speaker 6 (01:09:49):
Well, that Air Force base has a lot of countries
training there.
Speaker 3 (01:09:52):
It's nothing unique.
Speaker 6 (01:09:54):
Singapore, for example, has a major presence there. The polls
are there a lot of countries that we're allied with
buy weapons from US fighter planes and so on get
trained there. The fact is that the media and the
public didn't know that, and so they thought this was
a radical event.
Speaker 3 (01:10:15):
That's what we do all the time.
Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
Does it not bother you the one day it might
come unstuck.
Speaker 6 (01:10:21):
Everything gets becomes unstuck at some point in geopolitics, you
look at the next few minutes and you try to
figure out what it is you really need, And what
the United States really needs is not to be responsible
for the world, not to be committing troops overseas. Remember,
for the past eighty years, the United States has been
in a series of wars between the Korean War and
(01:10:43):
the Afghan War, none of which we did well.
Speaker 3 (01:10:45):
In.
Speaker 6 (01:10:45):
None of that we got any vegan. So Trump comes
in and says, We're not going to keep doing this
stupid thing, getting involved in the wars. We're going to
try to settle them using our power. And that's what
we did in this one. Didn't work in Ukraine. Yet
this is what he did here.
Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
A matter of interest one, it's on my mind Trump
coun't run again at the end of this term. Is
there a possible crack in the constitution somewhere.
Speaker 3 (01:11:13):
That would allow him to run.
Speaker 6 (01:11:14):
No, there is none. He's not going to run. For
one thing, he's seventy nine years old now, he's going
to be eighty two years when he finishes his office,
and he's not going to go for the Biden play.
That's over. So he's just not going to run. But
on the other hand, he's doing what you would expect
(01:11:35):
that I predicted that would happen the United States. He's
creating a massive storm in the United States, attacking the
federal government the way he was structured, attacking universities for
the way they teach. It's an institutional crisis, it's a
cultural war, and he is systematically engaged it. Outside of there,
(01:11:56):
he simply wants to stop being so exposed to international affairs.
He can't do that if he doesn't settle the situation
to some extent, so in the Middle East, to create
a situation where the United States is going to need Israel.
Remember the United States needed Israel in the Cold War
(01:12:17):
because many of the Arab countries were pro Russian. Syria
and Egypt we're both. So when you think about that
in withdrawing from it, it's going to be a messy business.
You just saw that happening, but no American troops are sent.
Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
So talk to me about the next stage, stage two
of this plan. Of his stage one seems to have
gone perfectly or close enough. Stage two does that involve well, actually,
let me question myself. Does the surrender of weapons of
(01:12:53):
war by Hamas fall into part one or two?
Speaker 6 (01:12:59):
It doesn't mean anything the Middle East. Anybody can buy
any weapons they want in some place, so having them
give up their current weapons as they can get others.
Speaker 3 (01:13:10):
This is the Middle East.
Speaker 6 (01:13:12):
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. There's a
little joke I'll tell uh. There was a scorpion that
wanted across the Suez Canal and he asked a fish
or a frog or something to take him across. The
frog said what are you going to You're going to
kill me and said the scorpions said, no, I won't.
(01:13:35):
They wouldn't do that. Okay, get on board, I'll take
it across. In the middle of it, the scorpion stings him,
and the dying words of the gulp of the fish
was well, frog, frog, frog. The dying words of the
frog were why, and the answer was welcome to the
Middle East.
Speaker 2 (01:13:55):
The question is did the scorpion drown.
Speaker 6 (01:13:58):
Yeah, this was the interesting thing in the Middle East.
Me dying is not necessarily a prohibitive event.
Speaker 2 (01:14:06):
All right.
Speaker 6 (01:14:07):
In other words, to your question, I find it very
unlikely that any settlement can be reached because I don't
think the Arab countries want a Palestinian state there. They
have always been for it, but never helped make it.
Speaker 3 (01:14:22):
So.
Speaker 6 (01:14:22):
The West Bank, in the hands of these groups, uncontrolled
by other countries in the region, are a tremendous threat
to Israel. On the other hand, if Trump can convince
them that the United States will intervene against any size
the starts of war, knowing that he doesn't want to
(01:14:44):
do this, that might be the play he can make. Otherwise,
I don't see how this works.
Speaker 2 (01:14:50):
Well, that was basically my next question. What is there
that exists that makes you nervous? Can you be a
little more specific than you just would.
Speaker 3 (01:15:01):
I'm not nervous. I live in Texas.
Speaker 6 (01:15:05):
What makes it unlikely to be is that that nations
that could be very powerful in the region, like Saudi Arabia,
have always tried to keep away from this. You know,
this is kind of the dreaded post that you can
touch and never get rid of.
Speaker 3 (01:15:23):
That Trump did.
Speaker 6 (01:15:23):
It was impressive that he can hold it together, that
the other countries will make the sacrifices necessary to hold
it together and put this behind us. That goes against history.
But maybe we'll go against history this time.
Speaker 2 (01:15:39):
Well, there's always the first time. Talk to me about
nt Yahoo just for a moment. How secure is he.
There are plenty of people who don't like him. We
saw that last night.
Speaker 6 (01:15:50):
There is deep hostility to Netaho. One part believes that
he's only doing this for his own well being, the
legal problems and so on, and that he allowed all
these skillings to go on of Israeli's for that. Secondly,
there a group there that thinks he's an idiot because
(01:16:10):
he does not understand military power and its uses. He
exhausted the Israeli military. The Israeli military is bitter, it
was not built to fight a two year war. And
there are those who oppose him that simply think he's
ruthless and unmerciful. Then there are the people who love
him deeply, deeply because he did these things. Israel is
(01:16:33):
a deeply divided country right now, and the divides are
along the lines of that Nataniahu's said when he said,
there's nothing I won't do, no matter how brutal, how
much it costs Israel to do this.
Speaker 2 (01:16:47):
Is there anything else that you want to make an
issue or take issue with.
Speaker 6 (01:16:53):
Well, from my point of view, you're seeing the American
foreign policy under Trump taking hold, and this would have
been something any American president did when the Cold War ended.
Are in involvement in the Eastern Hemisphere was so extreme
that we're constantly at war. We built our economy based
(01:17:17):
on making Europe stronger, richer. We did foreign aid in
order to stop Russian influence. We built our entire system
for eight years around the world. And how it works
with the collapse, with the failure of Russia in Ukraine,
(01:17:37):
their inability to win a war that, as Trump said,
the nations should have taken two weeks.
Speaker 3 (01:17:46):
The failure to do that.
Speaker 6 (01:17:49):
Basically tells us that Russians are not a threat. We're
not impressed by the Chinese at all, for all their claims.
And President g appears to be very very ill down
by the way today as we talk, you said ill ill.
He seems to have had a stroke. He's been ill
for a while. At this point. The word is out
(01:18:12):
in many places that he's had a stroke and that
it's not clear that he's going to survive.
Speaker 2 (01:18:19):
How widespread is that would.
Speaker 6 (01:18:22):
It's pretty widespread. I received one phone call already, and
it's on the media to some extent. But we knew
he was ill.
Speaker 2 (01:18:33):
So he dies or he disappears. What would the nature
of the personal people be who take over?
Speaker 6 (01:18:42):
Well, this is the problem. This economic situation in China.
The side of China is really bad. There's unemployment, there
is all sorts of problems, and recently she tried to
put these down by taking over the control of all
regions away from the governors in those regions. So there's
an internal crisis. From the American point of view, we
(01:19:04):
cannot depend on China for imports so long as they
maintain a hostile relationship with the United States. So two
dimensions are going on right now. There are economic talks
where Trump just a raised a bar to one hundred
percent tariff on China. There's also military talks going on.
(01:19:26):
The United States is basically saying we can't be dependent
on you economically. We have to create our own internal economy.
You can't keep exporting to us the way you are,
and we're one quarter of the world's economy.
Speaker 3 (01:19:39):
So that's a lot of.
Speaker 6 (01:19:40):
Money unless you shift your military stance, and those talks
are going on now, it's very hard. G couldn't do that.
What I expect to happen here is someone to emerge
who understands that they're not going to war with the
United States. The United States is not going to attack them,
and they sure need to be able to export the
(01:20:01):
United States.
Speaker 2 (01:20:02):
So what's an interesting will Still, I've got a couple
of shorter questions and been were winded. A lot's been
made of well, it's been mentioned many times the Hamass
tunnels in Gaza and the amount of the amount of mileage.
And when I first heard it being compared with the
London Tube, I was absolutely stunned, because I mean in
(01:20:26):
the Tube just recently and I felt affinity. But the
question is how did they get away with building those
without anybody, without anybody else knowing, or did other people
know like your secrettacks.
Speaker 6 (01:20:41):
It was a massive intelligence failure by the Israelies. These
Israelis have always prided themselves at how good they were,
and there's one problem with Yahoo. They never penetrated Hamas
and they didn't detect that movement, which they should have
seen in some way, went on for over a year
(01:21:03):
and they weren't ready for the attack. So there are
books being written by israelis one book, the next one
by Gabael katz quled while Israel slept it was a
massive intelligence failure.
Speaker 2 (01:21:16):
Well, there is the rest of the world. I mean,
I'm talking about about your security services that have much
more potency, shall we say, than the Israeli. So we
accept that they lewin well, but is there not a
secondary responsible.
Speaker 6 (01:21:34):
The answer is no. The United States cannot be responsible
for all of the intelligence issues in the world. The
Israeli intelligence service is kind of rival to the CIA.
They would kind of show off against each other that
they cooperate, but this is purely an Israeli game. They
No one ever imagined that Israeli intelligent sort of deteriorated
(01:21:56):
to this extent.
Speaker 2 (01:21:58):
Last question is there are people who want to know
the current position of the spacebook.
Speaker 6 (01:22:06):
The current position is states book is I get off here,
I go take a look at the chapter headings and
make sure that I like the names or the Meretith
likes the names, and she's sending it to random house tonight.
Speaker 2 (01:22:20):
And it's gonna be released in about a year.
Speaker 6 (01:22:23):
Well, this one may be faster because there's a lot
going on in the moon in the United States, a
lot of technical activity, a lot of things going on,
So we'll see.
Speaker 2 (01:22:33):
I just kind of I just can't understand why books
take a year or thereabouts.
Speaker 6 (01:22:38):
But most of my books have to do with one
hundred years. So they figured out.
Speaker 2 (01:22:42):
Side very very clever. George appreciate it and very good insight.
And I trust I have no idea how you'll edit this. Well,
why will I edit it?
Speaker 6 (01:23:01):
Choic it was chaotic?
Speaker 2 (01:23:03):
Well, this is it always anyway, appreciate it, and uh,
we will talk at the next appropriate.
Speaker 3 (01:23:10):
Occasion, perhaps in New Orleans.
Speaker 2 (01:23:13):
Now you're talking, okay, see it. I went to the
(01:23:33):
mail room for podcasts three hundred and six, missus producer.
The sun is out for the first time today and
it's Nillie over.
Speaker 5 (01:23:43):
I've forgot what it looks like.
Speaker 2 (01:23:45):
Do you want me to pull the curtains just momentarily now?
From Colin. Colin writes, the podcast with Louise Klegg was
well done and she's a very interesting person that I
hope you have again. One thing touched on by her
was the anti mail attitude that's in Australia. I mentioned
this because in the next podcast, Stewart email you a
(01:24:08):
very good critique of the New Zealand Herald and I
would like to add one more thing to the article,
and I hope that Stuart won't mind. On Stuart's behalf,
I can tell you he doesn't mind and gives me approval,
don't you, Stuart. What I and even some women with
young boys amongst others, are offended by is the anti
email attitude that comes through in many articles in the
(01:24:31):
New Zealand Herald. This is another fault of the paper
worth discussion, I think. Regards Colin ps, you said, if
this email is badly written, you can correct it. With
me having no school qualifications, it's all good to rewrite
anything I said. I'm busy most of my time correcting mine.
(01:24:54):
That's funny.
Speaker 5 (01:24:55):
Laton Joyce says, this is my first time emailing you,
so firstly, I like to thank you for all the
amazing podcasts you provide for us. There is so much
going on behind the scenes in the world today and
most keywis don't have a clue about it, often because
they're too busy trying to survive. You bring a real
perspective which is sorely lacking in the general media. A
big thank you for that. I listened to your podcast
(01:25:18):
three three with Muri on Youman this morning. She's another
person we can thank for her exposure of what is
going on in the background in New Zealand. It was
a great interview. Towards the end of this podcast, Joyce,
as you were commenting on Erica Kirk for giving the
man who killed her husband, you admitted that you could
not understand how she could do that. I wanted to
(01:25:38):
share with you the answer Jesus. And then Joy gives
you another couple of lovely paragraphs for your edification Laton,
and she explains what she meant by that, and then
she says, thank you for all you do. It's so
good to hear someone who seeks the truth and stands
for what is right.
Speaker 2 (01:25:56):
And that's from Joy. Joy. I appreciate your interest and concern.
It's interesting me actually the number of people who are
writing along similar lines. I'd what I'd love to know
is if you've prepared to if you're going to tell
me what your particular background is with regard to this
(01:26:21):
in other words, what particular church you might have gone
to or go to or whatever. I'm just interested, Philip
writes late and re your podcast interview this week with
Patrick Basham and the potential election of Zorum Mamdani. The
old saying that nothing will get better until things get
as worse as they can is exactly what is needed
(01:26:43):
in New York City's case. I listened with great interest
to hear Patrick describe events in the US and elsewhere
parallel to what we're already seeing here. If not just emerging,
then well underway. Like the education system, the great multicultural experiment,
which is a slow motion train wreck in progress, has
(01:27:04):
introduced all these problems into most Western democracy. Although Patrick
says that although you don't wish it upon anyone, I've
come to the conclusion that it's actually what needs to happen.
Mandarmi needs to be elected and run his ruinous policies.
They will almost certainly result in the total collapse of
(01:27:26):
New York City, so that all those other idea logues
and progressives actually learn a lesson that might cause them
to stop and think before attempting to replicate that same
policy elsewhere. Let me just tell you something Philip, it
wouldn't because it's always somebody else's fault when socialism fails
(01:27:50):
or whatever it is that people are trying to introduce. Always,
they didn't do it properly. They didn't do this, they
didn't do that. So let me add it because I
can do it. No, you can't. You're full of it.
Not you, Philip Mandarmi needs to be elected and run
his ruinous policies, etc. New York City needs to be
the poster child to the world to prove the failure
(01:28:11):
of the progressive left's destructive socialist policies. Commonest socialism has
proven to be a failure. Regrettably, they're not teaching real
history and schools anymore. So the misinformed and uneducated left
needs to have it demonstrated to them in black and
white reality, in fact, that their blind acceptance and following
(01:28:31):
of this ideology is doomed to failure and that they're
going to be far worse off. Furthermore, it might very
well wake up the apathetic majority into voting the pendulum
to swing back the other way, case in point, the
local body election here. Alas, the only negative to this
is that those who care will probably have left dodge
(01:28:54):
by them. But you know what, It's time for things
to get worse, to prove those voters who support Mandarmi
wrong and get rid of this progressive nonsense out of
our democracies.
Speaker 5 (01:29:08):
Says when Patrick Basham warned that New York City is
on the precipice of voting for a mayor who is
anti New York City, I could relate. Next year, New
Zealand will be on the precipice of voting for a
government that is anti New Zealand. The three headed monstrosity
that has Labour, Greens and the Mari Party. This tax
loving Israel hating an anti whitelot will usher something even
(01:29:30):
worse than what the Spectator called the empty politics of
kindness of Jacinderadhurn. To avoid that catastrophic outcome. In twenty
twenty six, can I suggest your listeners to pre order
a copy of David Cohen's unauthorized biography Just Sinder, the
untold stories talking about the empty politics of kindness. I'm
(01:29:52):
amused to see the Free Palestine activists and mainstream media
completely silent on Trump's success in securing an Israel Hamas
ceasefire and the return of Israel hostages. Ironically, despite the
leftist me deafening silence, Trump still made the news when
the winner of the Nobel Peace Prize profusely dedicated her
(01:30:16):
success to Donald Trump.
Speaker 2 (01:30:17):
Wasn't that outstanding? Oh?
Speaker 5 (01:30:19):
The left must have had their nickers in a twist,
especially in New Zealand's most famous Palestinian, Chloe Swarbrick. I'm
counting on a new generation of young people who have
experienced woke hell to reject the Greta Thunbergs of this
world and choose the Charlie Kirks instead. It's from chin.
Speaker 2 (01:30:36):
A Gin. I was only yesterday had somebody tell me
something or say something to me about the individual you
just mentioned. It wasn't very pleasant, but it was true anyway.
Wowser's I think this is from twenty nine September, and
I know that this got missed in the shuffling. Wowser's,
(01:31:00):
I've never heard doctor Muriel Newman. This fired up three
dams in three minutes while describing the climate change ideology
that is driving First World countries into cost of living oblivion.
Also thanks to her, I now realize that Haypua poor
is a long march time bomb set by the insidious
(01:31:21):
adern Hipkin's government to establish sovereign Mari rule by twenty
forty if we give our votes to Labour, Greens or
the Mari Party. But what's worse, I notice an even
more alarming trend. More and more New Zealander is a
consciously or subconsciously renaming New Zealand a tier row in
New Zealand, or worse, just a tier rower. I have
(01:31:45):
no idea about which they speak, therefore I can't communicate
with them. Now, this phenomenon is not limited to the
left or right, but it's across the board. The anti
racist idea virus has truly infected more New Zealanders than
I thought. This is a subconscious capitulation to the apartheid state.
(01:32:06):
Thankfully there is hope and some spine left. Yet, Winston
Peters did something brilliant and unexpected recently, New Zealand refused
to follow the International Sheep to recognize Palestine's statehood until
there is peace. Following this brave act, here's a challenge
for the government. If we have enough spine to not
recognize Palestine's statehood, why not also have the spine to
(01:32:30):
not recognize the Paris climate accord until we can prove
a strong and productive New Zealand economy under the accord.
And why not, as doctor Muriel Newman rightfully suggests, have
enough spine to remove race from all New Zealand legislation.
Strike while the spine is stiffened, not bed. Now, I
(01:32:53):
suggest you go rest that voice. I know, I don't
know what happened to well revealing the more so, Oh dear,
So we'll see you next week.
Speaker 5 (01:33:02):
You will lighton.
Speaker 2 (01:33:03):
Thank you, thank you, missus. P Now, if you would
like to comment on this particular matter that has been
under discussion, or anything else for that matter, Latent at
(01:33:25):
News Talks AB dot co dot nz or Caravin at
NEWSTALKSB dot co dot nz always interested in your feedback
and always interested in well mostly interested in other things
that you might want to draw to my attention. So
we shall return to podcast three oh seven in another week.
Until then, as always, thank you for listening and we'll
(01:33:47):
talk soon.
Speaker 3 (01:33:56):
Thank you for more from News Talks at B.
Speaker 1 (01:33:59):
Listen live on air or online, and keep our shows
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