Leighton Smith Podcast #309 - November 5th 2025 - Tony Coleman - The Leighton Smith Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
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Speaker 2 (00:28):
Welcome to podcasts three to nine for November five, twenty
twenty five. Legend has it that billionaire investor Warren Buffett
was the first to describe gold investment as a pet rock.
In other words, gold just sits there and doesn't yield
in the way that a property investment yields rent or
shares yield dividends. In twenty twenty, Monday Week Journal went

(00:52):
even further, saying it in fact costs you to own it.
So why own gold when you could own a famous
soft drink company, say, or another successful company that can
compound over time. Why bet on a pet rock when
you can bet on American injurity. MoneyWeek went on to
report that Warren Buffett also once said gold gets dug

(01:14):
out of the ground in Africa or someplace, then we
melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again, and
pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility.
Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head better course,
as Ray Dahlio, the founder of the world's largest head fund,
doing much the same sort of thing, and one of
the richest men in the world or people in the world,

(01:36):
if you want. Bill Gates, after pushing every known argument
about climate fraud and COVID, etc. Stands on his head
declaring the opposite. It never was true. Isn't it amazing
how they can just flip like that and well get
away with it. And so it is that people who
have taken stands on various things finally wake up to

(02:00):
the fact that they were, if not wrong, then certainly
not right. And that's reflected in the discussion that we
have today about precious metals, specifically gold, then silver, and
then there's a bit of copper and other metals in
short supply floating about. This is a discussion that I

(02:20):
think has interest for everybody, even if you think not
at this particular point of time, because it's full of
information and there is much to learn. Right after we
take a small break. Leverrix is an antihistamine made in

(02:43):
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(03:04):
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for Leverix l e v Rix Leverrix and always read

(03:25):
the label, take as directed and if symptoms persist, see
your health professional. Farmer Broker Auckland. Now, just before we

(03:50):
introduce Tony Coleman, there's a statement I want to make.
This is not a paid commercial. It is no different
to any other interview that I've done on the podcast. Yes,
I've advertised and I do advertise for New Zealand Gold
Merchants and it's an honor to do so. But there
is peak interest in this field ly at the moment,
and it's been building for some time. I'm particularly interested

(04:14):
in the precious metals, gold, silver, especially in New Zealand,
and the effect that they could have on this country's future,
because it could be substantial. So I trust that you'll
get something, if not plenty, out of the discussion that follows.

(04:34):
Tony Coleman is the managing director of New Zealand Gold Merchants.
And it's a great pleasure to have you here.

Speaker 3 (04:40):
Well, thank you, Ladon, it's pleasure being here.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
Tell me a bit about let's start this way. Well,
tell me a bit about the founding of New Zealand
Gold Merchants. It goes back to your father, if I
remember correctly, Yeah, that's correct.

Speaker 3 (04:53):
Twenty twenty five is our fiftieth year in business. Not
all of it perfect, of course, Rocky. Like many other businesses,
my father was a metallogist and moved the family up
from the South Island in the late six stairs and
worked as a meta agist for various companies. He decided

(05:14):
to get into precious metals in seventy five, and this
was in the middle of the boom of silver. So
with the decoupling of the gold and silver peg to
the US dollar in seventy one, we started to see
the metals rise and in seventy five, my father Bruce

(05:35):
decided to get into it as a refiner and a
manufacturer of jewelry and bars, and ran that right through
up until nineteen eighty one, with the cumbination of the
Hunt brothers trying to corner the bullion market, the silver
market particularly, and then the subsequent collapse of silver after
that when Comex changed the rules I was working. I

(05:58):
came back from Europe in eighty two, and it was
a very small company back then, just manufacturing bullion and
industrial silver products for electroplatting. We lived that way for
some time. The eighties went good for metal. We had
those very high interest rates if you remember lately twenty

(06:21):
eight twenty nine percent. We saw the gold and silver
price start to rise again through the mid eighties with
every other market back then, and then the eighty seven
collapse was really the nail and the coffin for silver
and gold for about ten.

Speaker 4 (06:37):
To twelve years.

Speaker 3 (06:38):
The digitization of the market really had a significant impact
on gold and silver, particularly silver. The digitization meant that
we lost thirty five milfilm X ray went to digital.
It took time, of course, but all these uses for

(06:58):
silver degraded and the price languished due to that. The
other part of that was that in the sixties most
cunk trees went from a silver based metal for currency
to coppernickel, and that produced a thirty year glot of

(07:19):
silver into the market. And that thirty years essentially finished
around two thousand and eight, and then we started to
see silver become demand with the amount of silver in
the market being restricted. And since then silver's done quite well.

(07:39):
But it did languish for twenty five years. I have
to say, did I mention what year it was I
bought that silver? I think you said nineteen eighty three, correct,
so probably near They would have collapsed a bit by then, though, right,
because it was back down to nine dollars when the
high was fifty dollars in nineteen eighty one.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
I knew somebody in Sydney who worked in a firm
that dealt with it, and I just thought, oh well,
I'll go and see her and walked out with ten kilos.
But I was content with it because it was going
to be for a long long term holding. One bar
is I still have it. The other one got stolen.

Speaker 3 (08:23):
Well, I got it given a bar for my twenty
first birthday in nineteen eighty two.

Speaker 4 (08:28):
I still have it.

Speaker 3 (08:29):
It's still engraved and it sits in the bottom of
my safe at work sie oh one kilo. My father
was not going to give me any more than that.
But really, the transformation of gold merchants happened in two
thousand and six when we saw an opportunity to get
into the gold side of the market and prices is

(08:52):
starting to rise. It was looking fairly interesting, and a
year and a half later we had the GFC Global
Financial Crisis, which was really the beginning of everything gold
and silver, and we're seeing what's happening today. It really
started back in seven eight with that, and that really.

Speaker 4 (09:12):
Was the feder Reserve.

Speaker 3 (09:15):
Creating a six hundred it seems so low these days,
a six hundred million dollar loan essentially to the banks
to shore up the banks after the initial collapse of
Freddie Mack and Fannie May. That led us to believe
that the only fix that the Fed really had was

(09:36):
to increase debt, and we were confident from then on
that every time we saw another issue, it was just
going to be more money thrown at it, which is
what's been happening to the point where this month, the
US has just increased their debt by trillion dollars and

(09:57):
it only took seventy one days.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
It's pretty quick.

Speaker 4 (10:00):
Well, where's it going?

Speaker 3 (10:02):
Thirty eight trillion in debt and I can't even comprehend
those numbers anymore. That's so big, and there's no way
of them actually getting out of this trap. So what
happens is we see a slow and then increasingly speedy
devaluation of currencies. And this is why we believe in

(10:24):
many respects, we're seeing a move away from US treasury
debt into gold by those countries.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
That can, and there's plenty of them, and they're buying.
They're still buying big according to my reading this morning,
Well that's right.

Speaker 3 (10:41):
We're seeing central bank buying and underwriting the gold price.
So with central bank buying sovereign gold funds in general
all buying, that means that for the smaller traders in metal,
such as ourselves, in the customers we deal with, they
are getting the benefits of having their portfolios underwritten by

(11:07):
the large money, sovereign money. We think that this will
keep going while we still see this indebtedness in the system.

Speaker 2 (11:17):
Can you see no, let me rearrange that there has
been talk for some time that this is even prior
to Trump's reelection, that he'd be looking at revaluing gold
its price, And there have been figures that have been
tossed around that are well in most people's in most

(11:37):
people's eyes, they would be unbelievable. But as much as
twenty four as much as twenty four and beyond thousand
dollars an ounce, well.

Speaker 4 (11:46):
That's the story.

Speaker 3 (11:47):
And there are plenty of people that do the maths
and say that those sorts of numbers are correct. I mean,
it's hard to believe from this position of currently four
thousand dollars an ounce, how it could even get to
twenty thousand dollars ounce. But two years ago I would
have said quite the same when it was only two
thousand dollars an ounce. You know, our customers are recognizing

(12:10):
that they're buying in gold at a time where the
markets feel exorbitantly expensive, but time will probably show that
it was still cheap at the time. There's no there's
nothing in the markets that's showing that the markets are overbought.
With physical we saw some speculation in the last few weeks,

(12:32):
and we've saw gold rum from a low this year
of four thousand and four to fifty Kiwi dollars through
to seven thousand, five hundred and seventy eight dollars. I mean,
that's an increase of fifty seven and a half percent,
and we think that those are not going to be
sustainable going forward. We do think that twenty to thirty

(12:55):
percent per annim at the moment is looking likely. Silver, platinum,
and palladium are all tracking in the same direction, so
it's not just gold or silver. The commodities in general
as well as copper, all tracking outwards due to demand
and due to I wouldn't use the word dedollarization. I

(13:17):
would use the word of de risking away from the.

Speaker 4 (13:21):
Dollar to a degree.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
Our belief is that the dollar's going nowhere soon. The
dollar is very strong. It's used for sixty percent of
all debt.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
You're talking American dollars.

Speaker 3 (13:31):
American dollars, So American dollars are used for balance a trade.
The Swiss system runs on it. We are seeing the
bricks looking to redesign trade, not to take it all,
but to give some balance between the US dollar and

(13:52):
other opportunities other sources.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
Right, you talk about four thousand to seven and a
half thousand in New Zealand dollars, that of course is
partly driven or that amount is manufactured might be a
good way to put it. By the drop in the
New Zealand dollar against the American dollar.

Speaker 4 (14:11):
Well that's true.

Speaker 3 (14:12):
Last year the dollar dropped sixteen percent, but having a
little bit of a look this year, that drop has
only been on average around five percent, So these numbers
are going to look very similar in US dollars as well.
I think that silver particularly is had a good run up,
and platinum, which has been in a deficit mining deficit

(14:37):
four four five years, has really had an increase up
around seventy five percent year on year. Will they last,
That's always the big question. I think it depends on
what they're being consumed for. Platinum looks very strong and
will continue to stay elevated silver and I would like

(14:59):
to say that my.

Speaker 4 (15:01):
Silver position is that we started to see silver.

Speaker 3 (15:04):
Rise sharply on the twentieth of August, and that just
happened to be the same day which Donald Trump mentioned
that the US government.

Speaker 4 (15:16):
Had created a strategic silver reserve.

Speaker 3 (15:19):
And I've been questioning, why do.

Speaker 4 (15:21):
We have a strategic silver reserve?

Speaker 3 (15:23):
And I think one of the major reasons, apart from.

Speaker 4 (15:27):
Solar, is that you need silver.

Speaker 3 (15:31):
To make high tech armaments, things like Tomahawk missiles to
use fifteen kilos per missile of silver of silver. And
only a week before we heard China and Russia both
say that they were creating strategic silver reserves. So it
makes me believe that we're on a footing of potential war,

(15:54):
not saying that we're going to have one, but saying
that the rhetoric is moved away from just trade tensions
to hey, don't pick on us, we're prepared for it,
or we're preparing for it, and you feel I think
people feel that tension. The markets certainly feel the tension.
Silver and gold are showing that tension.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yes, people are feeling it. They comment on it quite regularly,
just with regard to silver, because we'll get onto gold
in a moment or three. But does New Zealand have
any supply of silver silver in the ground?

Speaker 3 (16:32):
I mean, so there's a small amount coming out of
Wayhi there Dora, which is the melted bars from mining,
is around thirty percent gold seventy percent silver, but that's
about it. The South Island's miners are typically producing between

(16:54):
ninety five and ninety eight percent gold in their dora,
so very very high.

Speaker 4 (16:59):
Gold, virtually no silver at all in their doray so.

Speaker 3 (17:02):
A dore bar is a melted bar from gold mining,
typically from hard up mining.

Speaker 4 (17:08):
They go through a.

Speaker 3 (17:11):
Various processes and end up with a concentrate which is
then melted into bars and sent to refineance.

Speaker 4 (17:17):
That's the sort of thing that.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
We buy, that you buy, that the company buys, you mean,
and then does what with.

Speaker 3 (17:24):
Well, once we get the metal bars or the door a,
we then have to separate the various metals out to
purify them. That's done via a chemical process and electrolytic processes,
so we have to typically get everything dissolved up into
a solution. Then we selectively precipitate the metals that we're after,

(17:46):
which is gold and silver, and then we melt those
up again. They then go into.

Speaker 4 (17:54):
Electric cells electrolytic cells where they are where you grow crystals,
gold crystals or silver crystals.

Speaker 3 (18:02):
They are then washed, re melted, and then turned into
bars or jewelry or whatever.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
After that, it's a little more complicated than one might
have thought.

Speaker 3 (18:12):
The technology is hundreds of years old. The electrolytics system
came in in the late eighteen hundreds, but the aqua
regiare which is the typical solution, which is a mixture
of nitric acid and hydrochloric acid, that's been around for

(18:33):
a very long time, maybe not as in the neat
form that we have it these days, but more than
two hundred years ago. This is how they were using
chemistry to actually purify gold and is part of the
fabric of the gold industry. And like every part of

(18:55):
the gold industry, it's heavily controlled. The wastes have to
be controlled, your gases have to be controlled, so there's.

Speaker 4 (19:04):
A lot of regulation, just.

Speaker 3 (19:06):
Like any other business in the chemical industry.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
Is it prohibitive or inhibitive.

Speaker 3 (19:12):
It's getting more expensive, I think, as as the local
governments set targets and so on and remove the use
of gas and diesel for various reasons, we're having to
go more electric and that has a definite impact on
the price. Electricity in New Zealand is very expensive and.

Speaker 2 (19:38):
It is going to get more so well.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
We've noticed our prices go up to three hundred. The
only way for us to cover that is to do
more volume and more efficiently. We're constantly looking at more equipment,
better types of equipment to build inefficiencies.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
So in your processing of gold to market point, do
you do all of that at your headquarters or are
you doing it on site?

Speaker 3 (20:10):
So we have multiple buildings, multiple facilities. We have the
head office and Hunger, but not far from there, we
also have a refinery and warehousing and we do all
the work in Auckland here. But the gold comes from
all over the country and quite a bit of it's

(20:31):
important as well from where well, mostly from Australia and
the Pacific Islands. In the gold industry, you're very restricted
in terms of who you can deal with. We used
to deal with Solomon Islands and Papua New Guinea, but

(20:51):
due to knowing who your customers are and knowing exactly
where you gained gold came from and who actually processed
it or got it out of the ground. If you
want to be an international player, there are limitations on
who you can deal with Papua New Guinea and Solomon
Islands because they refine mind gold as a family unit.

(21:15):
That's construed that that could be child labor and therefore
that sort of gold can't come into the mainstream, and
therefore those markets are going somewhere else. I don't know
where they're going anymore, but they're certainly not coming to Australasia.
It's a shame. I've spent time in the Solomons with

(21:36):
these families as they pan dirt to get gold, and
all that happens for them is they makes their life
even more difficult. It's not for child labor as far
as I can see.

Speaker 4 (21:50):
It's just you've got a couple.

Speaker 3 (21:51):
Of very young children that are with mom and dad
because nobody else to look after.

Speaker 2 (21:56):
Them, and so they get tagged.

Speaker 4 (21:58):
They do they do?

Speaker 3 (22:02):
People think I have these visions of Africa and people
with guns holding making children work most parts of the
Pacific and Malanesia.

Speaker 4 (22:14):
It's just not like that at all.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
What I'm interested in now is New Zealand's position in
regard to or with regard to everything to do with
particularly gold. How much do we have? Has it increased
in recent times? Have they discovered more? I mean, you
did tell me that John who John Hunter went to

(22:37):
this conference down the South Arland you mentioned the little
Artiga and came back with glowing reports of the attitude.

Speaker 3 (22:45):
Well, normally we go to the Mining conference every year.
It was on just recently in Ranna and just north
of Greymouth last week, very well attended, very buoyant attitudes.
The gold industry is being loved at the moment, which
is a rare thing for the gold industry. Most people

(23:06):
don't like mining, but it's New Zealand has to produce
income from somewhere.

Speaker 4 (23:13):
We have to export to actually.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
Pay our way in the world. And we've only got
the choices of currently farming, technology, commodities and agriculture as
opportunities to export. And while they're iron as hot ie,
while gold is doing extremely well and there's very large

(23:38):
profits to be made for mining in New Zealand, we're
seeing heavy investment and encouragement to actually build this industry
as quickly as we can. The Santana Mines which is
based in just out of Cromwell in a place called Bendigo,
they've got an anticipated one hundred and ten thousand ounce

(24:02):
yield per annum for ten years minimum, and that's worth
more than half a billion. Actually I can work it
out at the moment that's half a billion. There will
be half a billion US dollars a year and that
will employ somewhere around five hundred people. These sorts of
things the government loves and it makes a very small

(24:26):
impact on the environment. In general. Gold mines are not
like big copper mines. They have a much smaller footprint
and mostly they're away from what people can see, and
they have they have to make a payment to the government.
They have to put money aside to ensure that everything's
left back as it was when they finish. The alluvial

(24:49):
mining on the coast is all turned back into farmland.
The farmers are very happy because they get usable farmland,
which is free draining. Before it was all brush and scrub.
And so although the mining process or getting a license
takes four to five years, once you've got it, especially

(25:10):
at these prices, everybody's very happy.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
Why does it take four to five years.

Speaker 3 (25:14):
Well, there's a lot of there's a lot of environmental
protection we have. The rivers and streams all have to
be protected. It has to go through government. They've got
to decide whether it's viable or not. If they don't
believe that the money is worth the return of or
the risk of changing that land from scrub to something else,

(25:37):
they're not going to do it. So there's got to
be an economic plan.

Speaker 4 (25:40):
You have to prove. You've got to show how.

Speaker 3 (25:42):
You're going to deal with waterways and protecting them from
silt mostly salt. When it comes to alluvial you've got
to have a reclamation plan. You've got to show what
you're going to do. And you've got to pay royalties
to the government for the gold, because it's not your
goal or or the owners of the land's gold, especially

(26:04):
the government's gold. They own the minerals and allowed to
dig them up for a fee. And it's the same
with if you're lease in land. If you lease in land,
you will have to pay. In New Zealand it's somewhere
around ten percent to the land owner of the metal
recovered from the land as a fee for their loss

(26:25):
of use of that land.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
But the gold that comes out of that least land
still is still belongs to the government.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
Well technically technically so technically the government owns all minerals
under the Crown Minerals Act, so they own all the oil,
they own all the copper or gold in this case,
whatever's under the ground, and then they will give you
a right to to mine it. And when you mine it,

(26:59):
it becomes yours, but for a fee. The fees are
ridiculously low. At the moment, they are around three to
five percent, depending on what it is. I think that,
but I think that it's one of those things that
the government could look at, but they look at employment
and in areas.

Speaker 4 (27:19):
Late the West Coast, which are.

Speaker 3 (27:21):
Sort of trumps their small amount of fees that they
get under the Crown Minerals Act.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
I'm wondering what connection there might be between an increased
let's say we took a monumental leap forward with our
gold discoveries. I'm wondering what the connection would the result
of that and the Reserve Bank be.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
It's a really good question. We tend to be tied
and very closely to the US system. If I go
back to the beginning of COVID, we were one of
only sixteen countries.

Speaker 4 (27:57):
That had direct access to FED.

Speaker 3 (27:59):
Funds, which is where we got our where the government
got their money from to be able to.

Speaker 4 (28:05):
Give us all a paid holiday for.

Speaker 3 (28:07):
A number of months. And because of that, we don't.
It's not easy for us to actually maneuver into having
a gold reserve, such as virtually every country in Europe
and the United.

Speaker 4 (28:22):
States, we should have a gold reserve. Australia should have
a gold reserve.

Speaker 3 (28:27):
As well, and they don't. It's something that's it should
that potentially will become a mix of the Reserve Bank
holdings in the future, and it would be nice to
see New Zealand gold being there. But I'm not holding
my breath on that one. It's a tricky thing for

(28:49):
banks to hold reserves like this when they've got so
much debta elsewhere. It's not my area of expertise. I'm
sure there are better people than me to talk about.
In fact, you should get maybe the Reserve Bank governor
or somebody to I don't know, to Sweden have do
they have a gold hold It's a.

Speaker 4 (29:08):
Very good question.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
I have no idea.

Speaker 4 (29:10):
Yeah, me neither.

Speaker 3 (29:11):
I think that's where our knew Reserve Bank governor's coming from.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
Oh, of course it slipped my mind momentarily. Or she's here?
Is she not?

Speaker 3 (29:20):
Am I behind the times?

Speaker 4 (29:22):
She may be here?

Speaker 2 (29:25):
I don't know. I've been out of the country, although
I have been back long enough to have known that.
I want to refer you to a book, in fact,
a couple of books, but let me choose this one.
It's entitled rip Us Dollar nineteen seventy one to two
thousand and twenty X, which means as yet undecided or

(29:52):
unarrived at. And so it's rip Us Dollar and the
Way Forward. And it's written by an Indian, an Indian
economist who had some working relationship with Doug Casey, who
many people are familiar with as am I. He actually

(30:14):
came to the came to the vineyard in Cleveland. He was, well,
he had a you raise your eyebrows. He had a
half share and a dairy farm down Cleveland.

Speaker 3 (30:25):
Well, he's a very big proponent of gold mining in
New Zealand. He believes it's one of the best places
politically to mine and is a big fan of Ruer Goal,
which has got licenses north of Reefton at the moment,
and probably even a shareholder, although he didn't say that

(30:47):
in the interview that I saw him do a couple
of weeks ago.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
He's He's commented, Well, the Indian author whose name I'm
not going to try and pronounce, I did practice it
when I got the book, and now I forgotten Shan
Manger Nathan, Shan Maunga Nathan. It's all one word anyway.
He did work with and for Doug Casey at some stage,

(31:16):
and Casey thinks very highly of him and writes very
highly of him. Be very glad you have this book
in your hands, read it and prosper. And then Mark Faber,
Doctor Mark Faber, also has some comment to make. What
effect do you think a book like this, which has
only just been released, has the capacity to have on

(31:37):
the market.

Speaker 3 (31:38):
Well, I think everybody needs to understand the difference between
what currency is and what money is, and what and
how gold can affect your wealth in those areas. The
US dollar has been the standard bearer since nineteen seventy one,
when Nixon bought the US off the gold standard and

(32:04):
we went one hundred percent. Feared I backed by rule of.

Speaker 2 (32:08):
You know, even back in seventy one, when I was
a lot younger, I thought, what a stupid thing to do.

Speaker 3 (32:15):
Well, they hadn't been following the rules anyway. No, and
the French worked that out and were demanding their gold back,
and America's gold deposits were being eroaded very rapidly, and
they had to do something about it. So they went

(32:36):
and closed the gold window. And that's how they still
have their eight thousand tons of gold at Fort Knox.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
But have they still got it? No one can confirm that.

Speaker 3 (32:47):
No, And I know that Trump was talking about doing
an audit, and if they want to revalue their gold
and the future, they will have to achieve that audit.
So it's not coming anytime soon. But I think that
we have to look at currency and money gold collectively.

Speaker 4 (33:10):
The US dollar has lost.

Speaker 3 (33:12):
More than ninety nine percent of its value since nineteen
seventy one, and most of that is via inflation, which
we all pretty well understand.

Speaker 4 (33:23):
I think.

Speaker 3 (33:24):
I think the other problem that people think is, you know,
New Zealand, with our current exchange rate of around or
are we at the moment around fifty eight cents from
a high back in the seventies of more than a dollar.
We were over parity back then and under parody now.

(33:45):
All currencies are falling if you measure it against assets.
So it's a race to the bottom because anybody, any
government that gets the opportunity to expand their currency rather
than actually show fiscal responsibility, typically does. And so we

(34:07):
just keep borrowing and borring and borrowing, and that devalues
their overall currency. It gets to a point where people
typically outside that country go. I don't know if I
want to keep putting my money there. It's looking a
bit risky. And I think we've been seeing this since
twenty and fourteen, where central banks have started a buying

(34:31):
campaign of gold. They've gone the opportunities are holding gold
or holding US dollars. They are although in Bank of
International Sentiments terms, gold wasn't a good hold because it
was more expensive than US treasuries. That changed on the
first of January twenty twenty three, where gold became a

(34:55):
Tier one asset for the BIS, which meant you could
collateralize your gold at the same level that you could
collateralize US treasuries. And that was a game changer. And
if you go back to the graphs and you look
at twenty three to now, this is where we see
the major price increase in gold because central banks can

(35:19):
now use it to underwrite all the rest of their
debt that they have, and this underwriting underwrites the whole
market in terms of price, so the US dollar doesn't
get undermined just by inflation, which is consumer pricing. It's

(35:40):
not holding itself up with asset pricing as well, so
we're seeing it being devalued by shares, and we're seeing
devalue by commodities, and it averages around ten percent proanum.
The CPI component of that is only. The inflation component
of that is only around three to three and a

(36:02):
half percent. The rest of it's sort of invisible to
the public, So it's not gold price going up. Essentially,
these currencies devaluing against gold. That's what that's what we're seeing,
because gold's just an ananimate object.

Speaker 2 (36:21):
Can I just insert that over the last few years,
that has escaped most people, even if I may say so,
stack of economists of finance writers. You know, they all
latched onto that comment. And I forget who made it
that it was just a rock or something that sat
there and that was all it was, and it was

(36:42):
useless without taking into account that it wasn't the value
of the gold itself so much that contributed to it
to its value increase. It was exactly as you've just
explained it.

Speaker 4 (36:56):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (36:57):
So if you've got if you've got all the gold
in the world and all the money in the world,
and it's got a certain price, let's say that is
four thousand dollars an ounce increase the amount of money
in the world, but the goal amount stays the same.
It typically means that the gold price is going to
go up and balance with the increased amount of currency

(37:19):
in the world. And that's exactly what's happening. It's not
the price of gold going up, it's everything else is
going down. And that's why you're noticing that even though
you get a pay rise, you feel that you're getting
no further ahead because the value of what they're paying
you in is depreciating.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
Now you've just just touched on without mentioning it something
that I think is important. That is that if you're
if you're buying, if you're buying precious metal, whatever it is,
for the purposes that you've just talked about, to keep
pace with the value of the of something that will

(37:59):
outweigh the demise of the currency that you thought you
were saving. So well.

Speaker 3 (38:04):
Well, it's the major reason why we sell gold. It's
not not for these rapid rises and price. It is
to protect your long term wealth. There are different thinkings,
different ideas. My idea is that if you've got some
money and you don't have anything better to do with it,

(38:27):
like lower eliminate your mortgage or something like that, and
you're trying to accumulate wealth, put some into.

Speaker 4 (38:34):
Gold because gold will protect you.

Speaker 3 (38:37):
Over the long term. It will keep your keep your
powder dry, so to speak. It will allow you to buy,
regardless of the prices rising, what you could have bought
five years ago you could buy now with gold. In fact,
you're doing slightly better at the moment because the world's
in a bit of turmoil. But it is wealth accumulation.

(38:58):
You're protecting your money.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
How is it that the Indians in particular and others
had worked this out? And I saw a story only
two days ago that India is Indians in India are buying, buying, buying,
buying because they understand the structure. Why is it that

(39:25):
they do and the rest of us struggle?

Speaker 3 (39:28):
Well, I would say that it's not just the Indians.
I think it's Asia and Southeast Asia.

Speaker 4 (39:36):
The culturally, gold has always.

Speaker 3 (39:38):
Been strong in these In these countries China, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh,
all through Malaysia and Indonesia, they've never had strong currencies
and therefore have traditionally held their money in gold. They
haven't been westernized so much into a debt based system.

Speaker 4 (40:00):
They've basically lived with what they.

Speaker 3 (40:04):
Can earn and people go, well, it's not a very
nice house, or you live collectively or whatever. But by
doing so, that means that they hold assets and not debt.
And that's a very big Eastern way of thinking compared
to the West. The Western ideals are a debt based system.

(40:26):
The having your own home, having your own block of
land or whatever. It's a completely being absolutely absolutely, I'm
not sure which is better. I know which I prefer.
I prefer the I'd rather save and buy something outright

(40:48):
than to go into debt to get something. That is
my point of view. Debt's not a good thing to
have if you can avoid it.

Speaker 2 (40:55):
Well, I was raised I don't know about you, but
I was raised with the idea that the only thing
you ever borrowed against or four was a house. Cars
came on the scene during the course of my lifetime.
We could buy them on time payment, etc. And young
people love to do that. What about you, how did

(41:17):
you behave when you were growing up and you were
old enough to have a car but not enough money.

Speaker 3 (41:24):
I'm trying to remember actually, whether I went into debt
or not to buy a car. I'm sure I did once,
but I absolutely tried not to. I'd rather have a
lesser car and no debt than a flash car with debt.

Speaker 2 (41:37):
Do you know what it's like growing up with a
group of mates who first of all, I'm thinking of
one in particular, he left school early and became a
building apprentice, and he bought an Austin Healy Sprite straight
off right, and then within the year he was driving

(41:57):
an the type Jag. Now, none of us have ever
knew where he got the money from, or whether it
was time payment or anything. I would imagine the latter.
But he had everybody's attention, you see, and that ranked
him higher on the on the on the scale of
acceptability as a mate. So I don't believe that it's

(42:18):
it's changed much since then.

Speaker 3 (42:20):
No, Well, my nephews they had the choice of buying
buying gold and saving a gold or buying a new
car and going into debt to do that. Had the
conversation with him only a year ago. Him and I've
got plenty of time to look after my future, but

(42:42):
I want the car now. And this is nothing changes,
It's exactly the same. We Instant gratification is part of
the norm these days, it's not It's not unusual. It's
restraint is difficult.

Speaker 2 (42:57):
But instant gratification is a term that you don't hear
every day anymore.

Speaker 3 (43:01):
Well, I'll give you an example of what delayed gratification
can do. A very very good friend of mine, who
is worked as for his life, is now getting to
get into that period over sixty five where he's looking
to retire. He came into some money a couple of
years ago. He had the choice of spending it and

(43:25):
getting a better house and so on. He decided to
put it into precious metals. That money has doubled in
the last two and a half years and he is
now in a better position that he couldn't even dream
about two years ago. But we did sit down and go, well,

(43:45):
you can either do something now with this amount of money,
or do something which is going to be quite transformational
for you in the future. You know the person by
the way, and.

Speaker 4 (43:58):
He's decided to He decided.

Speaker 3 (44:00):
To hold off, and now his future looks a lot
brighter because not everybody's going to retire with all the
bells and wills of money that they that they want.
In fact, most of us can't.

Speaker 4 (44:12):
It's a if, it's a it's a difficult world to.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
Be, and that's partly because of the financial system we
run in.

Speaker 4 (44:22):
You know, people go, it's so easy to go, oh, well.

Speaker 3 (44:26):
I don't want to invest in companies that make armaments.
I don't want mining, I don't want yeah, do you
know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (44:34):
Right?

Speaker 3 (44:35):
But the fact is that there are necessities in life.
And even even Bill Gates came out during the week
and said that it's probably better to feed people than
to worry about greenhouse gases at the moment.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
When that when when I saw that, I thought, I
hope your security is pretty found.

Speaker 4 (44:54):
You know.

Speaker 3 (44:54):
It's the right to life, I think is very important
and weish, you know, it's very nice to try and
have both. But if we can't, one has to succeed.
And I believe it's it's people's ability to be able
to have a half decent life without worrying every day
and being able to be fed and clothed and oursd.

(45:17):
We haven't made a very good job of it in
New Zealand so far, because legislation tends to prohibit building
building things that are in cheaper areas or of a
less equality, because governments don't want the cost of that
heading them later in the life. But I don't know.

(45:39):
I look at Asia and I go they do a
lot of things wrong, but they do a lot of
things right. They build a house, if it only last
ten years, they're not worried about it because it's cheap
enough to build another one. And that's how they typically live,
certainly in Vietnam, and increasingly the quality gets improved each time.

Speaker 4 (46:01):
It gets built.

Speaker 3 (46:02):
But I've watched the buildings there go through many transformations.
They seem to survive quite well, of course not earthquake pronic,
but or rain prone, but.

Speaker 4 (46:16):
They still flood like everywhere else.

Speaker 2 (46:20):
Look, I'm not content with where we got to with
regard to the difference that gold could make in volume
to New Zealand. And what I mean by that is,
if we were able to either discover or to order
mine what we already have or whatever in large volume,

(46:43):
would that make any difference to the standard of living
in the country.

Speaker 3 (46:47):
I think the simple answer is yes, it does. Apart
from export receipts, the goldendustry offers thousands of jobs and
on a very limited amount of land. I mean, most
mines are very very small, and they're producing collectively billions

(47:08):
of dollars for New Zealand, and they are employing some
smart engineers. There are drivers, there are all the ancillary
industries that work around these small towns revive. I mean,
just go to Graymouth at the moment. I mean, from
a place that was looking nearly dead after the coal

(47:32):
mining collapse enclosures, we're seeing buoyancy. Hok Tiker is doing
extremely well. The whole coasters got smiles on their face.
And for coasters, it's not a thing that happens that often.
Central Otarget it's the same thing. I know, it's the

(47:52):
center of tourism, but it is there because of the
gold industry and this gold all through all through that area.
I mentioned Santana earlier and out of Cromwell, but you
know we head towards Gore and Waikaia. In places like that,

(48:12):
there are huge deposits of gold that are not yet
being opened up, but it's their under license and they
will be opened up in the near future.

Speaker 2 (48:21):
So they have been found, Oh, they've.

Speaker 3 (48:23):
Definitely been found. But even the ones that have been
found are only just the tip of the iceberg of
what's down there. That whole alluvial plain running from the
base of Wakatipu down towards in the cargo is full
of gold deposits all through and although some of it's
been mined previously, there's still significant areas of high value

(48:48):
gold that is under farmland already which will be just
dug up, recovered and gone back to farmland again. If
anybody goes to Waikaia and you go down the Waikaia River,
that whole area has been farmed and mined twice. It
was descrubbed and they laid eight hundreds. It was mined

(49:10):
in the early nineteen hundreds and mind again by Waikaya
Gold in two thousand and seven or eight they started.
You wouldn't you can't tell you wouldn't been able to
see a thing other than natural farmland.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
Talking of books as we were, there was a there
was a book that came out in the in the
seventies from memory. It's somewhere on my shelf, on my shelves,
and it's written by Judy Shelton, and it's to do
with the collapse of the Soviet Union. And she she

(49:46):
called it, she published on it, and she was right.
And that's when that's when I got interested in her,
because she was saying things that nobody else believed, and
yet she got it right. So then we then we
come to two more books after the Russian collapse or
the Soviet collapse, and one is Money Meltdown, Restoring Order

(50:11):
to the Global Currency System, and the most recent, which
was just last year, is Good as Gold, How to
Unleash the power of sound Money. So golding for the
sound money, aiming at that. What do you say, I
say that we have.

Speaker 3 (50:27):
To do something. I say that we've got a fiat
based system which is spiraling out of control, and without
pegging the increase of debt to assets, which can be
a basket of basket, so it doesn't have to be
just gold, but it could be oil and gold and

(50:50):
a number of other things. Without pegging the increase of debt,
we're going to have no currency at all, and we're
going to have a collapse and we'll be in the
dark ages like we've never understood before.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
How close are we do that? Are you talking about
New Zealand or the world.

Speaker 3 (51:05):
Well, I'm talking globally. At the end of the day,
the US dollar dies, everything dies. My understanding is that
the US dollar is not the one we should be
focusing on first, I mean there's a canary in the
coal mine, and that is probably the euro, and secondly

(51:26):
could be the yen. These currencies, currencies are not globally
traded as the US dollars, it's not the not all
embedded in the in the debt based systems and the
landing systems and the balancer trades and.

Speaker 4 (51:42):
Everything that the US dollar is.

Speaker 3 (51:43):
The US dollar is the strongest of the currencies that
we have and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
But I do see a significant threat to the euro,
and currently we're seeing a significant threat to the yen
as well.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
So what would happen if the Euro crashed.

Speaker 3 (52:01):
Well, I guess if the Euro crashed, they would have
to go back to their basic currencies again. Or what
happened to the Swiss currency.

Speaker 4 (52:11):
They had to depeg a few years back. They were pretty.

Speaker 3 (52:16):
Well if you were in if you had euros and
euro collapse without warning, your euros are worthless of course.
So one of the reasons why we've been seeing gold
being purchased.

Speaker 4 (52:33):
Out of Europe very rapidly is.

Speaker 3 (52:35):
Because they are they do have their concerns, I mean,
the political systems, particularly in Germany, France, and although it's
not part of the European Union, the UK they are
all at the point where they are going to be
knocking on the door of the BIS shortly because they
are so indebted there in a hole that they can't

(52:59):
easily get themselves out of. So a lot of that's
to do with the conflict in Ukraine because their gas
prices have gone up, the oil prices have gone up,
because they can't buy any of those sorts of things
from Russia anymore.

Speaker 4 (53:12):
All in the.

Speaker 3 (53:13):
Name of freedom, you know, but this has caused impoverishment
of the lower classes, the middle classes being squeezed, and
we're seeing a rise of the right. It's being contained

(53:33):
at the moment.

Speaker 4 (53:34):
By the left.

Speaker 3 (53:34):
You know, people various people rise up on the right,
and they've been when it comes to the presidency and
so on, they tend to be not back. I mean,
Italy is about as close to the right as you've
had in Europe, and they are surviving quite well, which
is surprising to many.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
Well, they suffered terribly under the euro true.

Speaker 3 (54:02):
Well, this is because in America, when the United States
became a union, every state was forgiven their debt and
they all started off on a clean slate, and this
is part of the problem with the Euro. When the
Euro was instigated, countries like Germany and France didn't want

(54:25):
to forgive.

Speaker 4 (54:26):
The debts of the Portuguese.

Speaker 3 (54:28):
And the Spanish and the Greeks and the Italians, and
so they've had to they change currency, which is great
temporarily because all of a sudden they had this buying power,
but they still have this long term debt that they've
not been able to get out of. And one of
the problems with the system is that indebtedness.

Speaker 4 (54:48):
They have a ratio that they have to work.

Speaker 3 (54:50):
With in and when they fall outside those ratios, they
get punished by the ECB European Central Bank and they
have to borrow money at higher rates, which proverishes them more.
So it's a very unfair system and it will fall

(55:12):
over eventually. It's not a in my opinion, it's not
if it's a when for the Euro to collapse. I
think what we'll see as soon as next year is
capital controls in Europe to try and protect the Euro
from their own people moving money.

Speaker 4 (55:33):
Out of it.

Speaker 2 (55:34):
The only thing that surprises me about the Euro is
that it still exists.

Speaker 3 (55:39):
Well, you know, it's twenty five years now, and it
is a bit of a surprise because plenty of people,
even me, we're calling it five years ago, that it
was it was the death rattle was happening. But it
still survives. But this is the thing, when push comes
to shove, necessity is everything we see. It's amazing what

(56:01):
you can do to keep something alive. Right, And the Euro,
although it should be extinct, is not. The Europeans still
remember the Second World War and how devastating it was,
and having a Euro allows various economies to be connected

(56:23):
with each other, and it was this disconnect in the
thirties that caused a lot of the problems in the forties.
So I think that they go regardless of what happens,
we've still got to hold this together. And this is
why they're so keen to hold it. But like everything else,
they have to live within their means, and they're not

(56:45):
doing it currently, and they're not the strength of the US.
They don't have the military power and the economic power
to dictate.

Speaker 4 (56:54):
To the world.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
This might be an unfair question, but you've got trumpet
at the moment, and I shall we say an enthusiast.
No one's perfect I've got a headline lying around somewhere.
Doesn't matter because I can remember it pretty much. It
simply said Trump is a terrible person, but he's a

(57:16):
great president. You know, every time I think maybe that's
enough for one podcast, I come up with something else,
and it occurs that we haven't really discuss. You've mentioned China,
but we haven't. We haven't discussed and you haven't told
us your opinion about China in the In the Scheme

(57:37):
of Gold, I.

Speaker 3 (57:38):
Think China is the key to the gold market. It
was China's failing relationship with America as China became number
two in vitually number one economy in the world, that
really started this whole thing. This month, it was reported

(57:58):
that China for the first time owns more gold than
US treasuries, whereas two years ago they had two trillion
dollars in US treasuries. So we're seeing the market change now.
In twenty eleven, I was telling anybody that we wanted
to listen that the gold market and the silver market

(58:20):
will be held down until the power of Comax, which
is the commodities exchange in New York, is wrestled away
by someone. In the early two thousands. Early to mid
two thousands, China opened up the Shanghai Gold Exchange. Now,
the difference between Shanghai Gold Exchange and Comas is that

(58:42):
the Shanghai Gold Exchange is back one to one worth gold,
so every ounce of gold you're selling in the market
actually has an ounce of gold backed, so futures and
so on. With Comas you can have it's around one
hundred and fifty contracts for gold to every every gold

(59:05):
contract one hundred ounces of gold that you've got contracts
one hundred ounces, and so it's completely leveraged. And one
of the reasons why we've seen these massive prices is
because customers have been standing for delivery and Comax hasn't
had the gold. Normally, what would happen is if the
futures price goes up, people take their profits in cash.

(59:29):
But over the last year or so, we've seen that
change and we've seen companies and individuals standing for delivery,
taking the gold and creating severe shortages of gold in
the market. We're seeing the same thing with the LME
at the moment, which is the London Metals Exchange, and
that's the central exchange for trading silver. There's been an

(59:53):
arbitrage between the US and London of three to four
dollars an ounce, putting extreme stress on the silver prices now.
And arbitrage is where you can buy them one market
and sell it another and that's the difference in price.
So this hasn't been resolved yet, though I have heard

(01:00:18):
that there are ships that are being loaded with silver
to try and ease the silver shortage in London. So
it's been a twenty five has been a quite the
year for shortages, not globally but in certain spots that
are price makers and price takers. So what we're seeing
at the moment is China pretty well standing for delivery

(01:00:42):
for everything. So the buying and comes right the buying
out of the New York Stock Exchange New York Comes Exchange,
and they're taking physical delivery and they're sending it back
to China. So China is rapidly and openly now creating
a gold market and people go but why Well, one

(01:01:05):
of the reasons is that China doesn't want to play
nicely with the US anymore. They don't want to count
out to them. They believe that they're not being respected,
and so they're setting up a system where they can
trade yuan, and the uan can be trusted with the
individual companies countries that they want to. For instance, China

(01:01:29):
buys significant quantities of oil from Saudi Arabia and that
is paid for in yuan. Of course, SADI doesn't want
all yuan, so the basic trade works like this. They
buy the oil in yuan, SARDI gets the yuan, trades
it into gold on the Shanghai Gold Exchange, and then can.

Speaker 4 (01:01:52):
Use that gold to either repatriate.

Speaker 3 (01:01:54):
Or turn into US dollars or any other currency that
they want. And that way, the Shanghai Gold Exchange becomes
a clearinghouse for yuan currency Uan too gold trading. It's
not that the yuan is backed by gold, but it's
gold is used as a clearing house to go from
one country one currency to another. This I think is

(01:02:18):
going to increase. We're starting to see more Asian countries
use the SGE as a facility to do exactly these
trades in their own country currency Shanghai Gold Exchange, so
there are two slightly different exchanges. It gets a bit complicated,

(01:02:39):
but the SGE is purely an internal mechanism for China,
but they have an international Gold Exchange Shanghai International Gold Exchange,
which is where a country like Saudi could trade and
then they could move that gold out because anything in
the SG itself has to stand. China very protective China

(01:03:01):
to their gold market and everything pretty well these days,
aren't they.

Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
Look you've just you've made me realize when we had
the when we had the I was going to call
it a crash, wasn't a crash at all. When the
when the gold market dropped what two weeks ago now yep,
roughly yep, and came right back. What happened to supply?
Because I know I read in various places that that

(01:03:26):
that that brought people out of the woodwork because you
buy on a dip. So what happened to supply, Well,
it's a very.

Speaker 3 (01:03:34):
Difficult time for billion companies such as US when those
sorts of things happen. What happens is that we do
sell tremendous amounts of metal, and we've had our biggest
month ever last month. But on the other side of
that is we're buying huge quantities of metal as well.
The difficulty is that the product that you sell and

(01:03:56):
the product that.

Speaker 4 (01:03:56):
You buy.

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
And not the same. What you're buying is product that
needs to be reprocessed and remanufactured into something else, and
that causes a lut and the refinery and a shortage
on the gold on the shelves to move out this
and what we see in is give you some examples.

(01:04:21):
The Perthmint, for instance, they've just stopped forward deliveries in
Ford sales, so they said, once we've run out, you
can't order anymore until we've built up stocks again. Then
you have other companies like the ABC, which is Australian
Bulliant company out of Sydney. They're also an LBMA member.

(01:04:41):
They went, okay, we're going to restrict our metal for
sale by increasing their rates. So they moved their rates
up on silver four dollars an ounce, which is around
one hundred and forty five dollars a kilo, and they
moved their goal price per ounce up to everyone, not

(01:05:06):
just the retail but.

Speaker 4 (01:05:07):
To all their traders and wholesalers.

Speaker 3 (01:05:10):
They moved it up one hundred and fifty dollars an ounce,
so on top of the normal margins.

Speaker 2 (01:05:17):
So you can see, well, how when you say the
normal margins, what are they?

Speaker 3 (01:05:23):
Okay, So if you were buying an ounce of gold
in Australia. A month ago you would have been paying
somewhere around sixty dollars an ounce over the spot price,
but as of two weeks ago you would have been
paying upwards of three hundred and fifty dollars announce.

Speaker 4 (01:05:43):
Over the spot price. Ouch Exactly if.

Speaker 3 (01:05:47):
You wanted it, you were going to pay for it.
Those were pretty well the rules, and there's a lot
going on in the markets. We were talking about these
shortages between Comax and the LME or. What that's also
done is push out the lease rates, the rate at
which LBMA companies like ABC imperthment how much it them.

Speaker 4 (01:06:08):
To borrow all the silver.

Speaker 3 (01:06:11):
Because you can be a large institution and you own
the silver, but you're earning no income. So what you
do is you lease that silver out to somebody that's
worth worthwhile, like the perth Mint, and you normally would
be paying around zero point three percent per annum.

Speaker 4 (01:06:31):
For the pleasure of that, but silver at.

Speaker 3 (01:06:35):
The moment is thirty percent and so they're modeling can't
afford that.

Speaker 4 (01:06:41):
So you've got the choice of you either hold your stock.

Speaker 3 (01:06:43):
And don't sell anything, which is what the perth MIT's done.

Speaker 4 (01:06:47):
Or you sell product.

Speaker 3 (01:06:49):
And you charge it accordingly as ABC's done. We're in
an enviable position in many ways at gold merchants because
we don't lease meddle, so we don't have most of
our stock doesn't have those weights on them. But where
we get caught out is that when the market is

(01:07:10):
as risk as it is at the moment, we're having
to import gold. Now if we can't import it from
countries without that surcharge, we have to then add it
to a certain amount of product, and our headache is
to go, how much is coming from the minds, how
much is coming from the public, and how much are

(01:07:31):
we having to bring in from Australia and we go
we balance it off and go, well, we are doing
eighty percent of our own metal, so therefore it will
only be a small component of that one hundred and
fifty if it was. But as it change is the
market changes. Our pricing is changing every day to allow

(01:07:52):
for these risk factors. It's a complicated.

Speaker 2 (01:07:56):
Process, complicated and frustrating, I would imagine, but also also interesting.
Where does the British coinage come from?

Speaker 3 (01:08:07):
So the Royal mint designed, so roy Mont's been around
for five hundred years, as you probably know, and they
produce or design some of the world's best coins. The
strange thing is these days no coins are made in Britain.
I think the current mint that's making the Royal mint

(01:08:29):
coins is Slovakia. Though most of these, most of the
coins that are designed move around from the Dutch Royal
Mint to Slovakian mints to German mints, depending on what
price they can get it minted for. And they've got

(01:08:50):
to be big enough to be able to do the numbers.

Speaker 2 (01:08:52):
All right, So you sell, you sell coins from various countries, correct,
South Africa, Canada, Britain, America. What is the difference between them?
Would why would somebody want that one and somebody want
that one? Because surely they're all there one ounce coins,
all of them, well except the half hounds and quarter

(01:09:14):
ounds and what have you. But you know what I'm saying,
I do. They're all They're all of equal weight value.
So what is it? What difference does it make?

Speaker 3 (01:09:24):
Really it comes down to personal preference. I mean one
of the things that we noticed is when Queen Elizabeth
died and her effig was on the all the coins
from the Commonwealth. When Charles came became king, there were
significant numbers of people that didn't want a coin with

(01:09:46):
Charles on it, and so we had to start hunting
around and finding other coins that the market would want.

Speaker 4 (01:09:55):
You know, a lot of people watch YouTube.

Speaker 3 (01:09:57):
And listen to the Americans and or they have a
buyers coins, that is their market. They've never really had equality.
Bar manufacture to has had the influence to be able
to move people into barts. So in New Zealand and
Australia and much of Europe, bars are far more common

(01:10:19):
than coins, and they're cheaper to produced as well, because
the having the queen's effigy or the king's virgy now
is an expensive process. Each coin has a component of
the cost which goes back to the Royal Mint and
to the Crown for the use of that right. It

(01:10:41):
is but it is a It is a because it's
a currency. So those coins that you were just talking
about have, although they are brilliant coin, have no numismatic value.
They are backed by the Bank of England if it's
a Britannia's banked backed by the Bank of Canada if
it is a maple, and even New Zealand coins that

(01:11:06):
are produced by the News on Post these days, and
if it's a let's say it's one hundred dollars gold
coin that is actually backed by the Reserve Bank. So
there are coins in their own right and they are
redeemable for they already Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:23):
Yeah, so I didn't know that.

Speaker 3 (01:11:25):
That's if you're going to pay seven and a half
thousand dollars for a coin, you probably don't want the
fifty dollars normal value that the Reserve Bank puts on it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
Somebody asked me the other day, and I didn't know
the answer. What is what when you if you invest in,
you buy for whatever reason coins in particular, I guess,
but whatever, and then you sell.

Speaker 3 (01:11:51):
Is it taxable in New Zealand?

Speaker 4 (01:11:54):
Probably?

Speaker 3 (01:11:56):
I think the Inland Revenue says if your intention when
you purchased it was to sell it, well, then it
is a taxable activity. There are exemptions with regard to that.
Cultural exemptions. Trusts have maybe a slightly better. If you're

(01:12:20):
buying it not for yourself but for your children's future
and are gifted and so on, that's potentially not taxable,
but it really depends on each individual's situation. It is
not it's not black and white. It's certainly not clear.
And if I was anybody looking at this and looking.

Speaker 4 (01:12:45):
To sell, I would certainly be.

Speaker 3 (01:12:47):
Talking to them the Revenue Department to get there an
individual assertation on it. As to whether it is or not,
it's murky at best. I think that there's no stone
unturned when it comes to taxes and New Zealand. It's

(01:13:10):
it's pretty hard to squeeze through any gaps.

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
So this is the last question on that aspect of it,
at least, that American states have been changing the rules
of late and making gold and silver legitimate currency, why
do we do that?

Speaker 4 (01:13:31):
It's a very good question.

Speaker 3 (01:13:33):
It certainly would curtail the downward nature of our dollar
against everybody else.

Speaker 4 (01:13:41):
I guess New Zealand gold.

Speaker 3 (01:13:43):
In our countries not in the psyche quite so much
as I think you're talking Florida and Texas primarily so
that there's more is it more now? But those were
the couple the initial ones. I think that the jury
is out on what's going to happen at the moment.
I can't really answer that sort of question right now.

Speaker 2 (01:14:07):
Okay, I haven't thought about it, to be.

Speaker 3 (01:14:09):
Honest, I've been listening to it, but I don't know
if it's materially affecting anything. Having gold is a legitimate
as a currency for those states. You know, those states
particularly tend to be quite republican, and they are sort

(01:14:35):
of shunning the system and trying to move away from
the debt that they have.

Speaker 2 (01:14:43):
Just before I move on to this, As you can see,
did you complete the story on China.

Speaker 3 (01:14:50):
I didn't say that. The one thing about China and
its involvement in the gold industry is that they're building
all the infrastructure to support the trade of gold as well.
They're building one of the largest depositores in the world
old for gold in the Saudi Arabia at the moment,

(01:15:11):
and they're also looking to do the same thing in
Hong Kong as central gold trading hubs. This is not
just for bank to bank type trades, but this is
for global trade. So you can deal yuan, pick up
your gold out of Hong Kong, or pick up your
gold in the Middle East if you want to. And

(01:15:34):
I think America is missing this trip. This is the
play that China is using to help dedolarize their system
and bring all the trading nations that they deal with
into a system where they don't have to use the
swift and they can deal within their own currencies and
use gold as a clearinghouse for that. I think that

(01:15:57):
we're going to see this progress more and more over
over the next five to ten years.

Speaker 2 (01:16:02):
I'd like to So, finally, what I was just referring to,
This book arrived a couple of days ago. When you
saw it, you made a couple of comments. The world
according to Martin Armstrong Conversations with the Master Forecaster. What's
your opinion of Martin Armstrong?

Speaker 4 (01:16:24):
Brilliant.

Speaker 3 (01:16:25):
He's probably the number one go to person that I
personally go to, and I use all their trading strategies
for gold merchants. He has a program that he runs
for companies such as ourselves and larger called Ask Socrates,

(01:16:51):
which is a program that forecasts or the movement of
every commodity, every share currency in the whole world.

Speaker 4 (01:17:05):
You can it's a paid service. You decide what you
want to pick.

Speaker 3 (01:17:10):
He uses a cycle theory, so he uses pie and
he uses a cycle theory to determine what's going to
happen in the future. Apart from being probably the most
sensible economist I've ever met and talked to, he provides
information free to virtually every nation in the world on economics.

Speaker 4 (01:17:35):
He does. He has offices all over the world.

Speaker 3 (01:17:39):
He advises most of them Middle East countries and Russia
and America. And from what I just heard, recently he
was asked to write a peace proposal for Ukraine, which
he has done, and a text that he got back

(01:18:00):
on the twenty ninth of October said everything's looking very
good so far. He is well trusted by nations globally,
and if everybody listened to him, we wouldn't be in
the mess that we are. But clearly everybody has different motives.

Speaker 2 (01:18:20):
It's intriguing because he's a seed looking fellow. He spent
time in jail a large number of years, was it
nine or eleven?

Speaker 3 (01:18:28):
Eleven?

Speaker 2 (01:18:28):
Eleven years in attempt a court. Yeah, Americans don't talk
to me about American charters.

Speaker 3 (01:18:37):
Yes, well, it just happened to be the New York
Circuit Court, right, And essentially, he wouldn't give his source
code of Socrates to the federal government, and so they
just kept on rolling this, keeping him in prison while
they just until he gave up. But he didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:18:58):
But he didn't give up, and he's never never revealed it,
and he continues to use it and you just referred
to it for yourself.

Speaker 4 (01:19:05):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (01:19:07):
Is it worth the money? So I know it's very expensive.

Speaker 3 (01:19:10):
It depends. It depends which level you do. We I
believe it's with the money if you are a person
that's interested in trading and investing in shares and currencies
and gold and silver. It's very technical, so it can
easily rise over your head informationally, But their institutional their

(01:19:35):
institutional starting fee for well, let's say you're a bank,
it's one point five million a year. That's your bait's
fee for a bank like Gold and Sacks or someone,
and then you pay up from there. Right for a
normal person like me, it's four five hundred US a month.
It's nothing insurmountable. We only pick a very few things. Gold, silver, currencies,

(01:20:01):
those are the things that we pick. I've been to
see him speak in all around the world. I think
the last time actually was in Florida and it was
just happened to be the day that Trump got elected
the first time in sixteen and America was very quiet

(01:20:25):
back then. But Martin armstrompek that Trump would be get
in to presidency there.

Speaker 2 (01:20:32):
Yeah, but so did I. Wow, without Chocrates.

Speaker 4 (01:20:36):
See it's all this you're just well read, you see.

Speaker 3 (01:20:39):
But yeah, a huge amount of time for him, and
I think although he's unknown to most people, he will
become a household name if he can show that his
peace proposal, for instance, the with Ukraine, will be successful.

(01:21:00):
I have also read that he's upset the Europeans and
they will never acknowledge him because of what he's trying
to achieve there.

Speaker 2 (01:21:10):
At the moment, well, that brings us pretty much to
the longest interview we've done yet in seven years of podcasting.
But it's not over because I think at the very
least you deserve what I'm about. What I'm about to
make mention of. Back in August, when missus producer and

(01:21:33):
I were overseas, you decided that you were going to
what you've been planning this for some time, the opening
of your new officers, and you chose to do it.
I know you did that intentionally so I couldn't be there.
You chose to do it when we were away.

Speaker 3 (01:21:51):
Actually I chose to do it on the fifteenth of
August because it was exactly fifty four years to the
day that Ford's took gold off the gold standard of
the dollar. Off the gold standard.

Speaker 2 (01:22:07):
I really would have said that you're excuse.

Speaker 3 (01:22:10):
Well, you know you can't have everything in life right,
and you were sorely missed.

Speaker 2 (01:22:15):
This is not a paid commercial, This podcast just one
last one your new setup. Describe it because I've been
there and I think it's worthy of mentioning.

Speaker 3 (01:22:29):
Well, I saw this building back in twenty.

Speaker 4 (01:22:31):
Two and I've always liked it.

Speaker 3 (01:22:34):
It was an empty shell of a building. It's the
old only hung on woolen mills, built in eighteen eighty seven.
It was the last remaining section four hundred square.

Speaker 4 (01:22:45):
Meters that was left.

Speaker 3 (01:22:47):
It was a brick building with gabled roofs, and it
was wonky after two hundred odd years or one hundred
and fifty odd years of building, and there was nothing
in it all, no water, no power, plenty of graffiti.
And I thought, this is a brilliant building to have

(01:23:10):
a ancient type of trading company. Brilliant company. And so
I have a very good friend Jason Bonham, who from
bonhom architect and Design helped me design this building. We said,
whatever we put in there needs to last at least

(01:23:30):
another hundred years. So we created these spaces to allow
the EBB and flow of people. When it's busy, we
could open things up. When it's quieter, we could close
things down. It's clearly got high security in the back end,
but in the whether where the clients come in, it's

(01:23:52):
fairly open. We have cliank kitchen and so on, and
it's made of cedar and real stone and marble and
not ostentatious, got class considered. Everything's considered, and the design
was really therefore to make our clients feel that they

(01:24:14):
were safe while we're working with us. And it's got
double security doors and all the things you'd expect, and
car parks that allow easy access. And although it's an
only Hunger, it's still only five minutes from the Southern
Motorway and from the Southeastern And we're pretty damn happy

(01:24:35):
with it. Though I've outgrown it already.

Speaker 4 (01:24:39):
Well, my staff. We had a beautiful staff room upstairs.

Speaker 3 (01:24:43):
Unfortunately, due to the expansion of the bullion industry at
the moment, we're having to put a it's going to
be a bit smaller up there, and we'll have a
put a few more desks in that area for carrying
more stuff. If you've tried to get hold of us,
you'll know why.

Speaker 2 (01:25:01):
Indeed, Tony great to talk with you. We've answered a
lot of a lot of questions, and I think you've
conveyed a good and honest opinion on well Gold and
all its attractions.

Speaker 4 (01:25:19):
Lad and I appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:25:20):
It's never the easy thing for a person such as
myself to change hats and go from running a business
to actually talking about it. I thank you for the opportunity.

Speaker 2 (01:25:34):
It's been a pleasure. Now into the mailroom for podcast
three hundred and nine, missus producer. You said last week

(01:25:54):
it was very early. It's even earlier this week.

Speaker 1 (01:25:56):
Laton.

Speaker 5 (01:25:56):
It is things to do.

Speaker 2 (01:25:58):
You have appointments to be made or met. Now on
that basis.

Speaker 5 (01:26:04):
You can lead, Leighton Jin says. President Ronald Reagan made
one of the most terrifying political statements in history when
he said that the nine most terrifying words in the
English language are I'm from the government and I'm here
to help. I believe Chris Luxon just made the second
most terrifying political statement in history when he recently said,

(01:26:26):
imagine a cabinet table with Chris Hopkins sitting there, with
Chloe Swarbrick as Minister of Finance and Marama Davidson and
Rawi ytt and Debbie Nariwa Paka Labour Greens and the
Mari Party is a racist, leftist tax mungering clown show
waiting for an encore. I find it utterly pathetic that
after nearly three years in opposition, Labour could only come

(01:26:49):
up with a capital gains tax again. In a recent
NZEDCPR article, the erudite doctor Muriel Newman warns that in
order to strengthen our democracy, we need to restore equal
rights in New Zealand and remove race and ethnicity from
the government sector, not only overhauling legis, but also policies,

(01:27:10):
agency mandates, service delivery models, data systems, public communications, and
constitutional frameworks. Muriel's proposal is not racist. Rather, it seeks
a quality for all. Don't we all want that?

Speaker 2 (01:27:26):
Seue writes. Don't get me wrong, I am firmly of
the opinion that the gene Technology Bill should be scrapped altogether,
but not because of the fact that under the current
bill you would no longer have to label the food
as containing genetically modified material. The bill does not say
you may not put on the label everything that's in

(01:27:50):
the food. It says you don't have to put on
the label. Everything that's in the food's a small margin.
Small margin. So under the new bill, if there really
was no genetically modified material in the food, or you
would have to do is say so, put on the
label this food contains no genetically modified material. Then if

(01:28:10):
it's found there actually is genetically modified material in the food,
you could be sued to within an inch of your
life for lying on the label. For example, at present,
I don't buy cheeses that say on the label they're
made with bacterial rennet because I know that comes from

(01:28:30):
genetically modified bacteria. This is actually something like ninety percent
of cheeses made in New Zealand because ninety percent of
cheesemakers think that vegetarians won't buy their cheese unless they
say it's made with bacterial or non animal rennet. But
I only buy cheeses that say they're made with animal
rennet because I'm more worried about eating genetically modified food

(01:28:55):
than about eating food derived from animals. If people started
putting on the label that cheeses made with bacterial rennet
contained no genetically modified material, they could be sued. But
they don't see say that because it's not true, so
I don't buy those cheeses. Under the new legislation, they
would not be able to say that cheese made with

(01:29:17):
bacterial when it contained no genetically modified material. Thus, it
would actually be easier for non educated consumers to refuse
to buy vegetarian cheese because it couldn't say it contained
no genetically modified material. There are ways around everything. Out
of the Gene Technology Bill. As it stands, you wouldn't

(01:29:39):
have to put on the label that it did contain
genetically modified material, but you could still put on the
label that it didn't, and you could be sued for
saying that if in fact it actually did sue. Thank you,
I didn't know that, Laighton.

Speaker 5 (01:29:56):
Alisa says, thank you Layton for another exceptional interview, this
time with Professor Robert Clancy. I have listened to many
of doctor John Campbell's and Professor Clancy's discussions on this
topic over the last couple of years or so, and
they have dispelled any doubts I may have had, which
were none, that I may have made the wrong choice
in rejecting the JAB. The number of eminent medical people

(01:30:19):
around the world who have been pilloried and even desparred,
including some very brave people here associated with New Zealand
doctors speaking out with science is absolutely disgusting in a
moral the slow unfolding of the truth that has been
inflicted upon the world, it's going to be very hard
for many to comprehend, especially how it is part of

(01:30:39):
the push by the World Economic Forum and United Nations, etc.
To implement the Agenda twenty thirty plan. Not to mention
the corrupt big farmer ripoff Lton, let me not leave
you in despair. Your previous interview with the Israeli ambassador
too was very interesting, and then Alistair goes on to

(01:30:59):
say everything is pointing to the near realization of the
biblical prophetic writings revealing calamitous events to fall upon this
world before fire ushering in this time of true peace
is not too distant. Alexander Soldier Knitsen, the great Russian
author and dissident, summed it up with these words, mankind

(01:31:19):
has forgotten God.

Speaker 2 (01:31:21):
Interesting that a Russian, you know, from a Soviet background,
shall we say, I, would come up with a saying
like that from Chris. I struggled to get through your
interview with Robert Clancy as it was incredibly sad to
hear how people in positions of power hurt those they

(01:31:41):
were meant to protect. But the cause of this inequity
is because different world views collided, with only one side
being the winner. Some societies operate on a high trust basis,
where there is general altruism and an unwritten obligation to
improve the welfare of those around. This works when everyone
reciprocates and no one takes advantage of the generosity offered.

(01:32:06):
Can you point me in the direction of one of
those countries, because I can't think of it any Other
societies are low trust, individual centered, where people take what
they can before the next person empties the shelves and
leaves them with none. This me First society and Better
Together society are incompatible. Trying to force multicultural values onto

(01:32:27):
either one of these will result in the selfish taking
everything and the kind being taken advantage of. The net
result is a loss of collective kindness, where the good
people give up helping others. Along this trajectory, people will
only look out for those in their immediate social group,
leading to an isolated and fragmented society. The only solution

(01:32:51):
is to codify the values we operate with, which will
mean excluding those who won't play by our chosen rules.
It'll take a very strong leader. It'll take a very
strong leader to risk offending incompatible people for the common good.
Someone who is a bit abrasive and able to put
up with being labeled as a dictator got the ideas

(01:33:13):
kind regards Chris, Chris, there are so many aspects to that.
It deserves a little more consideration, I think, But you,
essentially you're right Aden.

Speaker 5 (01:33:24):
Matt says, greetings and thank you for hosting Professor Clancy.
It would be informative to know the treatment regime of
ivor Metton for long vacs. I note also there was
no mention of the essential immune modulator, the secos steroid
called vitamin D.

Speaker 4 (01:33:41):
That's from Matt.

Speaker 2 (01:33:43):
There's always at the end of every interview, there is
always something that you think, oh, should have touched on that,
or should have gone into it further, or whatever. You
get my drift. It just happens from Diane, longtime listener here,
and I know you hold Ben Carson in high esteem,
so I'm asking your advice, thoughts, your knowledge on the following. Today,

(01:34:06):
I came across a video on YouTube that talked about
the Great discovery Ben had made on treating Alzheimer's. He
had found the answer involving two ingredients, cedar honey and
the butterfly pea flower. I know that sounds crazy, she
says in brackets, and that is my question, though, is
this information too good to be true? In braggets only

(01:34:28):
sixty nine dollars a bottle. My grandson keeps telling me
that I watch a lot of AI and not to
believe it. When it said that he had written a
book with Barbara O'Neil, my suspicions were alerted, and that
is not likely, as I know Barbara's work. Long story.
Ben was clearly talking on the video. But I'm told

(01:34:48):
they can do this now on AI and we have
to be careful your thoughts. Please, even if it crushes
my good intentions of curbing my forgetful memory, keep up
your brilliant podcast. Look forward to it each week. I
can deal with it. I can deal with your question.
It's out of garbage. It's all over the place from

(01:35:10):
time to time I can. I can tell you in
all truthfulness it is garbage. Or if you want, if
you want evidence, do a search online. I'll guarantee you'll
find it say Ben Carson souls Alzheimer's issues or something
like that, and see what you get. But it's a connact.
And one more. During COVID, the majority of our US

(01:35:32):
family did the research and chose not to get vexed.
We all got COVID one time. My wife thoroughly researched
the vax and treatments. We all took the paste of
Ibermechton to treat symptoms. You could buy it for like
eight dollars a tube at our farm outdoor supply store.
It was frowned upon by many, but was available in

(01:35:54):
the paste form and later in the prescription form. Cost
of paste eight dollars, cost of prescription four hundred dollars.
What a fast we all dealt with. Unbelievable how much
faith people had in blindly listening to politicians and their proxies.
Didn't take a lot of research on your own to

(01:36:15):
realize iver Mecton was a safe, proven, and inexpensive treatment.
Keep up the good work, Adam from deep in the
heart of Texas. This is producer, Thank you. Thanks later
to you next week. Off to your appointment now before

(01:36:54):
we leave. On Podcasts three to nine. As a couple
of things, the de workification of New Zealand's education system.
Zealand's starting to get a little bit of positive publicity
at the moment. This is in Australia a spectator and
it was released today. The Conservative coalition government New Zealand

(01:37:15):
came to office promising to wind back an enormous government runs,
a system of woke that had infested every aspect of society,
from dangerous by lingual road signs to race based water
policy to a war on farm animals. The whole lot
was put under review. New Zealand First is getting a
bit of positive commentary anyway, That's not the one that

(01:37:40):
I wanted to concentrate on. This is written by Dr
Matthew Willicky from Climate Depot. The climate grifft unravels Bill Gates.
Stunning reversal sparks infighting among alarmists. It's not that long.
Listen up. In a surprising twist, Bill Gates, one of

(01:38:01):
the most prominent funders and voices in the climate alarmism movement,
has released a memo just ahead of May talks dialing
back his decades long retoric on climate change as an
apocalyptic threat, titled Three Tough Truths About climate. Gates now
admits that while climate change poses challenges, especially for the poor,

(01:38:26):
it will not lead to humanity's demise, no kidding. This
marks a stark departure from his previous doomsday warnings, and
it's already causing rifts in the climate community, with figures
like Professor Michael Mann publicly expressing disappointment at accusing Gates

(01:38:48):
of undermining the narrative they've pushed for years. Yes, You're
a moron. Man, Man, known for his hockey stick graph
and aggressive defense of climate catastrophism, took to x to
blast the memo, calling it b s spelled it out,
and insisting that m change remains the existential crisis they've

(01:39:11):
long claimed. It's just still coming down the line his
like his BS. His post shared on October twenty eight,
twenty twenty five, highlights the growing tension the grifters are
starting to turn on each other as the data refuses
to cooperate with their predictions. As I've argued extensively on

(01:39:32):
irrational Fear, the real threat was never modest warming of
from one point five to two degrees celsius itself. It
was always the hyped up feedback loops supercharged hurricanes, catastrophic
sea level rise, flooding islands, disrupted food systems, leading to famine,
and billions migrating as climate refugees. Yet none of this

(01:39:54):
has materialized. In fact, the latest IPCC Reports Table twelve
twelve from AR six COMMA twenty twenty one paints a
clear picture. White cells dominate categories like tropical cyclones, mean precipitation,
fire weather, indicating no detectable emerging signal or trend in

(01:40:19):
either direction. I think I'll read that again, as I've
argued extensively, writes the author on irrational fear, The real
threat was never modest warming of one point five to
two degrees celsius itself. It was always the hyped up
feedback loops. Supercharged hurricanes, catastrophic sea level rise, flooding islands,

(01:40:40):
disrupted food systems, leading to famine, and billions migrating as
climate refugees. Yet none of this is materialized. In fact,
the latest IPCC Reports table paints a clear picture. White
cells dominate categories like tropical cyclones, mean precipitation, fire weather,

(01:41:02):
and more, indicating no detectable emerging signal or trend in
either direction. And there is a picture of the with
the article of that the data simply isn't there to
support the hysteria. I've covered this in depth in previous posts.
Is climate change causing increased numbers of refugees? Spoiler no?

(01:41:26):
Predictions of two hundred million climate migrants by twenty fifty
were wildly exaggerated. Greening earth and booming crops despite claims
of agricultural collapse, Crop yields have soared with CO two
fertilization and moderate warming. The sea level lie exposed. Recent

(01:41:48):
studies debunk the alarm over accelerating rises. Rates remained steady
and manageable, and hurricane hypebusted. Data disproves climate supercharging claims
death from storms and down and intensity trends show no supercharging.
All these existential threats live in hypothetical models built on

(01:42:11):
shaky assumptions, as I've discussed repeatedly. Now, even Gates seems
to be reading the room or perhaps my sub stack
and acknowledging the grift is up. But why the shift.
There's no new DUBTA justifying it. Observations haven't suddenly changed.
This could be Gates seeing the writing on the wall,
or a un salvage operation to pivot from failed climate

(01:42:35):
goals to real issues like poverty and health. Wouldn't that
be nice? Takes us out for podcasts three oh nine.
If you'd like to correspond, love to hear from you
Latent at newstalks ab dot co dot enziit or Caravin
at the same address NEWSTORGSB dot co dot enzen. We
shall return in a short space of time before you

(01:42:58):
know it, with podcasts three hundred and ten. Until then,
as always, thank you for listening and we'll talk soon.

Speaker 1 (01:43:08):
M M. Thank you for more from News Talk st B.
Listen live on air or online, and keep our shows
with you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio

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Leighton Smith Podcast #309 - November 5th 2025 - Tony Coleman

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Leighton Smith Podcast #309 - November 5th 2025 - Tony Coleman