Leighton Smith Podcast #310 - November 12th 2025 - Stephen Rowe - The Leighton Smith Podcast

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Speaker 1 (00:09):
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Speaker 2 (00:33):
Welcome to Podcasts three hundred and ten. For November twelve,
twenty twenty five, we quote you a headline that's a
few weeks old. The world is changing more rapidly than
anyone could have imagined a few months ago. The following
article was written by Elwin de Grut, who was head
of macro strategy at Rubbobank. Now, while it's a bank

(00:54):
and it deals mostly with financial issues, this particular approach
reflects what else is going on in the world. All
of these things are not necessarily attached, but neither are
they necessarily unattached. But before we dive into that, let
me be a little more positive, No, let me be
a lot more positive and tell you about Stephen Rowe. Well,

(01:15):
just a little bit more than you might allready know.
But I want to start at the back end of
his career, and by that I mean this year in
January of twenty five, I joined the Cato Institute as
the program director of CATO Courses, a digital learning platform
for students and young leaders interested in individual liberty, free markets,

(01:38):
limited government, and peace. Let me repeat that, individual liberty,
free markets, limited government, and peace. I'm inclined to sign
up myself. Do we have anything like that available in
this country? Not that I'm aware of anyway. The platform
is now publicly available and growing fast. Beyond his work
at CATO, He's passionate about how artificial intelligence is reshaping

(02:02):
human condition, online content and education. Outside of work, I
believe in living fully and I saw somewhere that his
motto is something along the lines of play hard and
work harder. The sixty minutes or so that we spent
discussing all sorts of things is I think, just great

(02:25):
listening Now back to where I was before I mentioned
Stephen Rowe. This morning I received this in the email.
Brian Roche is looking like a full every minute Creepy
Costa remains on the public tip. The Taxpayers Union is
calling for Public Service Commissioner Brian Roche to immediately sack

(02:46):
the Social Investment Agencies CEO Andrew cost and rule out
a golden handshake or exit payout. This follows revelations that
the former police commissioner lacks integrity and lacks leadership. According
to current Police Commissioner Richard Chambers, Costa is currently on
garden leave as CEO of the Social Investment Agency at

(03:10):
receiving full pay. Jordan Williams said from the Taxpayers Union,
spokesman Jordan Williams said, every hour Costa remains on the
public payroll is a disgrace. Now I'm working on the
assumption that everyone is familiar with this particular case. The
Taxpayer Union's missive goes on he's on similar pay to

(03:30):
the Prime Minister, despite being exposed as totally unfit for leadership.
The public service is treating taxpayers like fools, and Brian
Rose is letting it happen under Coster's watch. This is
for those who don't know a victim was charged with
harassment while a secret protocol was implemented to hide information
from the Police Minister. The IPCA even say that the

(03:53):
then Commissioner Costa attempted to influence the nature and extent
of their investigation. These are not technical slip ups. They
are serious abuses of trust. Yet, rather than being shown
the door. Cost continued to enjoy full pay on garden
and leave. It's a slap in the face to victims.

(04:13):
Now there is one more little paragraph that I was
going to and I was going to say something myself
on this this morning, even before I read this. But
as we seem to be of one, let me just
quote this. This is exactly what's wrong with New Zealand's
bloated and unaccountable bureaucracy. When ordinary kiwis fail at their jobs,

(04:35):
they get marched out the door. When top bureaucrats fail
even spectacularly, they get months of paid leave and more
often than not, a payout. Roche needs to front up
to the media this morning at a short taxpayers that
there will be no payout, no golden goodbye, and no
soft landing for Costa that costs taxpayers. Now let me

(04:57):
turn attention to the media, the BBC in particular, then
the ABC in Australia, and of course government funded TV
and radio in New Zealand. Propagandists all it's just a
matter of degree. Europe's public broadcasters were created to stop
propaganda born in the wreckage of war, to protect democracy

(05:19):
from lies. They now preach soft sanctumonious state approved truths.
The resignations at the BBC this week are only the
latest symptom of decay across the European media landscape. The
model built to keep power in check now serves it.
There's a much deeper story to this particular issue. And

(05:40):
to hear or read in other parts of the media
that the BBC people are saying we are great, we
are trusted, we are well, we're heroes is just BBCBS
now across the Tasman of course, with Australia and the ABC,
if you're not familiar with it or how it's run,

(06:02):
or how much money they get from the taxpayer, and
how disgusting they are on so many fronts that I
haven't got time now to tell you, but some habit
to share in another stage. And then there is another issue,
and that involves the British forces. I only want to
utilize on one newspiece. A former Commander in chief has
warned soldiers will leave the British Army in retaliation against

(06:26):
application of human rights laws which are said to stifle operations.
It was revealed Monday that nine four star generals who
signed an open letter to the Prime Minister to coincide
with Armistice Day, warned that soldiers trust in the legal
system has deteriorated so badly that it now risks everything.

(06:47):
One of the document's signatories, Sir Nick Parker, lamented over
how the human rights laws have hindered soldiers work. The
group claimed that deterioration of trust is a direct threat
to national security, reiterating Sir Nick's belief that it has
sparked an exodus from the special Forces, claimed the deterioration

(07:09):
of trust is a direct threat to national security. In
the damning open letter, which has been published by the Times,
the nine four star generals said today every British soldier
deployed must consider not only the enemy in front of them,
but the lawyer behind them. Make no mistake, our closest
allies are watching uneasily, and our enemies will be rubbing

(07:32):
their hands. The army chiefs have also claimed that the
dwindling confidence has been spurred by the rise of law fare.
Is that word again, which they explain as the use
of legal processes to fight political or ideological battles, And
that will suffice. But next week there will be more

(07:52):
on this because it fits the It fits the format
that's upcoming. But in a moment we lift the vibes
and talk with Stephen Rowe and you'll enjoy it. Leverrix
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(08:58):
see your health professional. Farmer Broker Auckland. Now, the name

(09:19):
Stephen row might not mean much to you at this
particular point of time. The aim of the next sixty
minutes or so is to change all that. Stephen Rowe
is a very interesting man. He has a history that
involves Charlie Kirk. He's currently involved very heavily in AI
and he's a very good commentator on American politics. And

(09:41):
I can't think apart from last year's election, I can't
think of a more and I want to say exciting time,
a more challenging time in American politics than right now. Stephen,
Welcome to the podcast. Great to have you here. It's
an honor to be here. Thank you so much. You're
only about the third person to do a live in

(10:02):
office or studio that I've done. Well. I love it.

Speaker 3 (10:06):
I'm able to see how the magic works, and this
is an amazing studio. It's an honor to be a
guest here. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (10:13):
So I know that you were born in Montana, the
Treasure State. Yes, it's a very simple question. Why did
you leave?

Speaker 3 (10:19):
Yeah, honestly, I wish I didn't, But unfortunately, the way
the world works is you have to eventually depart where
you're from in a lot of ways to kind of
see the rest of the world. And one of the
books that inspired me, speaking of books, was one called
The Great Gatsby, and it shares the story. Most people
know about it pretty well, but shares the story of
a man from the Dakota's I believe, South Dakota in

(10:40):
the novel and leaves to the big city and makes
something of himself. I've chosen a more legal path, thankfully,
and not the bootlegging, illegal path of Jay Gatsby. But yeah,
Montana is incredibly special, incredibly beautiful. But unfortunately if you
want to kind of make a name for yourself and
kind of grow that career, sadly it was time to depart,

(11:01):
but I would love to, yeah, start by sharing that time.
And Montana was a special one because I grew up
in Billings, Montana, which is the biggest city in the
state of Montana. And for context, Montana's not really that big.
There's about a million people in the entire state, but
it's the size of Germany, actually six percent larger than
the country of Germany by land mass. Eighty two million

(11:21):
people live in Germany and only one million live in
the state of Montana. So similar to New Zealand, lots
of land, very few people, and just truly special because
you can go outside and explore.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
Well.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few Germans
looking to move to Montana. I believe that ye at
this at this time, you had an involvement with Charlie Kirk.
Let's concentrate on Charlie Kirk for a little while, because
he was, as far as I was concerned, not well

(11:52):
known in this part of the world. And it all
depends on what engauging is, of course, but I was
stunned to find out how many young people had attached
themselves to Charlie Kirk and were literally crying the day
that he was assassinated.

Speaker 3 (12:07):
Yeah, young and old, but the amount of young people
that he touched, I mean, it was truly profound, because
he was everywhere all across this country, and I was
lucky enough to beat him in the great state of Montana.
And so what happened was I was working for the
governor of Montana. Now his name's Greg Gianforte, and before
then he was just raising his political profile, beginning to
enter the world of politics. I'd begun working as a

(12:27):
social media coordinator for him. And it was a tremendous
opportunity in college to be able to work for someone
so great, I mean, just for on Greg for two seconds.
Here he has his fifth company exit right now, Technology
sold to Oracle for one point eight billion dollars and
that was his fifth exit as a company. And so
imagine being a college student being able to work with

(12:47):
a tremendous entrepreneur who was really fantastic. And so Greg
invites me over to dinner and says, you have to
meet this kid, and this kid's going to change the world.
And so I head over to Greg's house and it
was much different than the first time.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
I remember.

Speaker 3 (13:01):
The first time went to Greg's house, I didn't look
him up before I went over, and you know, you
really messed up when you look people up when you're
supposed to look people up before you go. You pressed
the call box and it's a security person's voice.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
It's not Greg's voice. You know.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
A beautiful gate opens into this wonderful, wonderful road overlooking
a beautiful home just in front of the bridge or
Mountain Range and Bozeman, Montana. But the second or third
time I went over to Greg's house, Charlie Kirk was there,
and so I sat down for dinner, really got a
chance to meet him and get to understand what he
was trying to do. He was beginning the opportunity that

(13:35):
was Turning Point USA, and Greg was an early donor.
Wanted to see Turning Point expand into the state of
Montana and thought I was well equipped to start a
chapter at Montana State University. You know, when I was
going through college, there was not a lot of political
opportunity for college students. You had the College Republicans and
the College Democrats in America, just a two party political system,

(13:57):
and you know, people have more views than two parties
would have you believe. But yeah, basically I was part
of the College Republicans at the time, and they gave
me coozies and beer pong balls, and you know, that's
really great if you want to, you know, hang out
with your mates and you know, celebrate with libation. But
I wanted to do activism. I wanted to move the needle.
I wanted to make a difference. And so when Charlie

(14:18):
came over to Montana and I met him at Greg's home,
it was so encouraging to hear that he wanted to
do activism. He said, how about every week we do
some major activism on the college campus of Montana State University,
where one week we have a National Debt cake where
you can hand out slices of the national debt. Another week,
we'll have a giant free speech ball where people can
sign whatever they want and literally write whatever they want

(14:41):
on this ball, but do true activism to encourage the
ideals of what we were trying to profess. Ideas of freedom,
ideas of liberty, limited government, and free speech are the
big ones, and free markets and free minds. But yeah,
I drank the kool aid, so to speak. I loved it,
and so I'm like, yes, I started the chapter at
Montana State University, and then when I graduated, I was

(15:02):
lucky enough to join Turning Point USA full time as
their third employee at headquarters. And it was a tremendous
blessing and tremendous honor. But Charlie was one of those
people that worked harder than everybody else in the room.
He had very few vices. He didn't drink, he didn't smoke,
and in fact, I remember so many times when he
was emailing me or texting me late into the evening.
It'd be twelve am, twelve am, one am in the morning,

(15:26):
and then I'd still get more emails and calls at
six o'clock in the morning, and I'm like Charlie, when
do you sleep? But this man was so dedicated to
growing Turning Point USA and reaching people. I always made
the joke that he lived on American airlines. He didn't
have a home because he would just go from place
to place, meeting donors and students across the country.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
That's expensive rent. Now just got back with it because
I'm interested in that. When you started the chapter at university,
what sort of response did you get?

Speaker 3 (15:55):
Yeah, I got a tremendously positive response, and the chapter
grew extremely quickly. And that was with the help of
other people too, which was awesome. But and this chapter
still exists today. So that's how you know it's something
that really was going to stick.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
Again. Most people didn't get.

Speaker 3 (16:10):
Exposure to a conservative message on a college campus, a
libertarian message on a college campus. If you think about
your traditional administrator or professor or even classmate in a
public university system in America, you're going to find someone
who tends to be a little more on the left,
a little bit more progressive things of that nature, and
very little exposure to the ideas of the right. And
so when you go into a college campus and you're

(16:31):
sharing ideas that most people haven't been exposed to before.

Speaker 2 (16:35):
It's quite exciting, right, this is this is this is
important because you don't get exposed to such things. What
when you were at university, what did you get exposed to?

Speaker 3 (16:45):
Yeah, I mean I got exposed to, you know, things
such as the broken glass fallacy. You know Kenzian economics,
so to speak. That's what I learned about economics classes.
When I was in my political science classes, I learned
you know, Rospierre and Fouco and you know, these political
thinkers of the past that tended to be French. I
feel like the French philosophers dominate the political discourse of

(17:08):
most POLYPSI classes, political science courses. And again, there was
no Milton Friedman, there was no Thomas soul There was
no Adam Smith or you know, Frederick Bostia.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
Did you have Roskby? No? Oh? All the time? I
was a rebel rouser in college. So what did you give? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (17:24):
So I got, first of all, not the best greats.
When you try and go against the grain, it's unfortunately
met with a lot of malice and a lot of hostility. Again,
I think sometimes the inherent nature of humanity is to
kind of go with the pack. Right, there's that old
expression that people are sheeple, right, they just want to
kind of go along with the grain, you know, they
don't want to go against the grain and basically keep

(17:46):
their head down.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
And I decided to stand up.

Speaker 3 (17:48):
And in a lot of ways, people didn't have a
lot of good attack vectors for a black conservative on
a college campus. I've later to become more libertarian in
my thoughts and ideas, but at the time, basically the
main hurl that I'll hurt at you is that you're
a racist. So what do they say to me when
this black conservative was on a college camp is talking
about the ideas of capitalism being the greatest economic system

(18:12):
that's raised more people out of poverty than anything else
in the world. I mean, they didn't have a lot
and so it was quite shocking and I think really
challenged and tested some people as they tried to combat
and debate me. But I was a rebel rouser that
was always raising my hand in class and not afraid
to share my thoughts.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
So you're the one that raised rice, So you're not
one hundred percent You've got other bloodline in you. Yeah, yeah,
I'm a double minority.

Speaker 3 (18:35):
As they say, so, I'm Panamanian, which is coming from
the country of Panama, which is Central America originally Africa,
but my family most recently was in Panama. My grandfather
immigrated here legally, and when he was able to do that,
he brought his wife, my grandmother, and four children into America.
My father, at the age of twelve, his first language
was Spanish, came into this beautiful country. On the opposite side,

(18:58):
my mom is a full blood Rosebud Sue Native American,
and so there's kind of three levels there. The first
level is Sue, which is the largest encompassing Native American.
Then from there it's Lakota, which is kind of the region.
So think like Sue as a country, and then Lakota
as a state, and then your city is Rosebud. And

(19:18):
so I'm a Rosebud Lakota, Sioue. On my mom's side,
she's a full blood Native American and she was adopted
at childbirth by a Norwegian family who owned a farm
in Montana. And only in America do you find these
two people trying to meet. Rosebud Sue native American and
a black Panamanian met in New York and had.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
Me and produced a black red yeah, of some sort.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
But the world sees me as black, So that's why
identify as black. But I'm always happy. I'm proud of
my Native American heritage. I have eagle feathers in my
home and dream catchers and things of that nature.

Speaker 2 (19:50):
If it'd been victimized, oh very much. So, yeah, one
hundred percent.

Speaker 3 (19:53):
If you look up my father's name, Aldo Row, You're
going to see an article from the Billings Gazette of
swastika is drawn on my home. And this was when
I was in seventh grade. I came home to a
whole bunch of graffiti go home and words. I just
don't want to use the word on the internet, but yeah,
I mean a lot of abrasiveness, for sure, and it
really hardens you quick. So I guess when you're being

(20:14):
confronted with that in seventh grade, you know, someone saying
mean things to you in a college campus isn't that
scary anymore? And so maybe that's why I built a
little bit more of a tougher skin, because I've had
to go through it quite frankly, you know, being black
at a place where there's not very many people.

Speaker 2 (20:27):
Well, we could discuss for the next half hour raising children. Yeah,
to be tough. Yeah, totally. I think it's not what
we want because we know what we're talking. We know
what we mean, Yes, very much, and so does everybody.
There just isn't there isn't enough of it. True. When
you mentioned swastiggers, I immediately thought of Jews in Israel. Yeah,

(20:50):
now we will get on to New York. It's not
min intent at this point, but it'll go where it goes.
So I'm wondering where you stand on Israel. Sure, yeah,
and anti Semitism totally. Well, I think anti Semitism has
no place in America or in civil discourse. There's a

(21:11):
difference between disagreeing with somebody and then being racist to somebody.
And I think civil discourse is immensely important first and foremost.
And so do I think Israel is perfect and has
never committed any sin? No, definitely not, And I think
that is important. But at the same time, do I
think that anti Semitism has been a pervasive problem not
only in America but for the past what three thousand years?

Speaker 3 (21:34):
The answer is yeah, one hundred percent. And so yeah,
I'm lucky enough to have been to Israel a few times.
And I've been really impressed by the people. I've been
very impressed by the faith. And I'm a Christian myself.
I'm a Catholic person, and so we are taught in
our readings and in our scripture that they are special people.
At least that's what Saint Thomas Aquinas has said about them.

(21:56):
And so, yeah, I'm pro Israel, but I don't give
them a blank check. At the same time. For example,
something recently that happened was we had the ceasefire agreement
with Gaza and Israel, and Israel then proceeded to bomb
a whole bunch of people in Gaza. I think that's incorrect.
I think that's a poor choice. I'm very pro President
Trump in a lot of regards regarding the ceasefire. I

(22:17):
think blessed are the peace makers, and it's time for peace.
And I think at this point there should be a
full ceasefire and effect, and Israel should not break that
ceasefire at all.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
Trump is a terrible person, but a great president. Yes,
agreeal disagree.

Speaker 3 (22:32):
You know, if you talk to me about his character,
you know, I'd want my kids to have a different character.
But yeah, in terms of policy, he's been a profound
president who's done incredible things for this country, and there's
so many positives about his administration. Again, it's not perfect,
but I'm a very happy person to say I support
Donald Trump.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
Yeah, one hundred percent in your rage group? Are they many?

Speaker 4 (22:54):
You know?

Speaker 3 (22:55):
I will say it thanks to efforts from Charlie Kirk
and others, I'd say there's more than ever before. But no,
it's a minority for sure. I think that the average
college student tends to be on the left, tends to
be even more progressive. They support people like Alexandria Acacio Cortes,
AOC and Zorhan, Mom, Donnie, they have Bernie Sanders, have
incredibly powerful youth divisions, and if you just flipped a coin,

(23:19):
I would say that, you know, most people would tend
to be more on the left than the right, but
even more in terms of percentages, it's probably in like
the seventies percentages of people that tend to be more
on the left or at least center left, and then
in even larger cohort of people on that that are
progressive and outright communist and socialist as well. And so
it's not popular to be conservative on a college campus.

(23:40):
That's for sure.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
All right. We started this chapter on Charlie Kirk and
we digressed, so I want to come back. Charlie Kirk
contributed what to your life?

Speaker 3 (23:50):
Yeah, I mean, he gave me my first job outside
of college, and so I'm immeasurably thankful. But he gave
me a lot more than just that. He gave me
a couple of things. He gave me, first of all,
a lens with which I could use to see the world.
And one of those is the ability to organize community organizing,
and from that see tremendous gains and productivity. There's a

(24:13):
quote that sticks out for me that Charlie really impressed
upon me. This is after our first successful event too.
It was called Winter in West Palm Beach, which has
since become the Student Action Summit, which is the largest
conservative event in America at this point. But this was
the very first one and we just finished it had
about two hundred and fifty college students over massive success.
Charlie gathers us all together and says this quote. First

(24:34):
they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they
fight you, and then you win. They ignore you, they laugh,
they fight, but then you win and That's exactly what
our experience was at Turning Point, USA. I remember the
very first time Charlie set up a table at the
University of Wisconsin Madison, saying, I'm going to do a
change my mind to prove me wrong. And you set
that table up and there's a student coming by once

(24:57):
every forty five minutes, I mean, nothing at all. And
if you saw even his assassination, or had seen him
before in political discourse, you saw tens of thousands of
people surrounding that table by the end, and at first
they ignore at him, then they laughed at him, then
they fought him. But his ideas are winning, but he didn't.
So yeah, I will say he's larger than life now.
I mean, similar to many martyrs of political movements. I

(25:19):
think Charlie's impact will be far beyond what his life went.

Speaker 2 (25:23):
How can that be maintained? I mean, we've all seen
Erica's speech or speeches, absolutely, and I thought that was
very brave of it, very ambitious, and I pondered whether
it would hold.

Speaker 3 (25:36):
Yeah, No, I think it's gonna hold in a big way.
There's a giant torch for us all to carry forward.
And yeah, my heart goes out to Erica and her children.
I mean, that's tough. I saw an article recently saying,
you know, her daughters are still asking where his daddy.
And that's so tough as a mother to say that
your father has passed away and he's not here anymore.
He's not you know, around anymore, and that's really really sad.

(25:58):
But what Charlie built was an organization that was built
tough and built to last. Turning point, USA has never
received more political contributions, has never been more large and
term of student clubs across the country and across the world,
and continues to grow every single day. And so in
the same vein as many great founders, you kind of
look at success, and success oftentimes is can your organization

(26:20):
exist after your departure? Hopefully that person still living, and sadly,
in this case, Charlie is not. But I promise this
organization is not going to go anywhere. It is well funded,
it's well organized and well equipped for the fights ahead.
And I think that people like me and people that
felt something when they saw Charlie's assassination have an even
bigger fire in their belly to work even harder.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
That's why I'm here in New Zealand timeframe, you weren't
with him. I mean when I say with him, you'd
left and moved on when he was assassinated. How long?
How long had gone by?

Speaker 3 (26:51):
Yeah, just over a decade of employment. But we had
been communicating quite often. I remember the last time too
that we were in person together was at the White
House and basically he was interviewing Avonka Trump and President
Trump was president, and basically I'm saying, Charlie, this is amazing,
like turning points, bigger than it's ever been before, like

(27:13):
what happens next? And Charlie famously said back to me, Stephen,
this is still just the beginning, Still just the beginning.
And again I still believe that for Turning Point USA,
even admit Charlie Kirk's departure from this world, there's such
a fire and he tapped into something.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
This is a shared sentiment.

Speaker 3 (27:30):
The reason political organizations catch fire some ways is because
it's not always one person. One person has the leadership
and the vision to make it a reality, but they're
touching into something. They're touching into a shared feeling, a
shared motivation, shared aspirations or desire, and that's quite very
much still here and in fact inflamed even more because
once you make a martyr out of an organization, I

(27:51):
think you find that it becomes even more powerful. Do
you have a hYP doubts, doubts about what a Yeah,
lots of doubts about everything.

Speaker 2 (27:58):
Yeah, what would be your biggest doubt the moment?

Speaker 3 (28:01):
My biggest doubt at the moment. That's a good question,
and I think, if I had to say it, my
biggest doubt is in the economic system of America right now,
in the sense that we are over thirty five trillion
dollars in debt, and I'm very concerned about the future
of being the world reserve currency moving forward in the future.
I'm very concerned about, you know, the economic future that

(28:21):
we're leaving our children. And in the past, it's been
the tradition to leave something better than you found it.
And right now, you know, I don't think we've received
anything as a millennial better than it was found. And
now do we have the ability to fix this right,
this wrong, cause a turning point right and ultimately leave
the generation that's coming up next better off?

Speaker 2 (28:41):
There are a number of things that concern me about
the same. Yeah, because I'm I'm an American at heart.

Speaker 3 (28:48):
I love that everybody is. I mean, it's an ideal.
Anybody can become an American.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
Don't you believe it? Yeah? Why do you people to
hate America?

Speaker 3 (28:56):
That's true and they live there too. It's kind of
funny too, because sometimes we say like, hey, you know,
you hate America so much, why don't you go somewhere else?
And they decide to stay where they're at.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
Indeed, now, there was one thing that tell you that
you mentioned about looking at searching people before you go
and meet them, right, Yeah, So I did that with
you great briefly. And here's what I came across, Stephen
Rohwe knows what you're thinking is certain you've made up
your mind, understands there's a chance, a good chance, if
you're a Port Adelaide fan, that you've already thrown him

(29:28):
in a box label dickhead and slammed the lid. Do
you know where Adelaide is? No? I don't. Straight South Australia,
the capital of South Australia. Now, the person that's being
referred to here turns out to be a sports commentator
on a radio station called five Double A.

Speaker 3 (29:45):
I've seen this Stephen before on my Google alerts. I
need to be far better than this guy.

Speaker 2 (29:49):
I came here from that radio station. Wow.

Speaker 3 (29:52):
Okay, the other Stephen is in the flash somewhere else. Well,
it's a competition on Google search results. Who pops up first?
We're back and forth. It's neck and neck. Let's change track.
You are renowned.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
So I understand in the subject of a I, yes,
I have my doubts about AI, don't we all? I
don't know. You seem very positive. I'm incredibly optimistic. I've
caused arguments between listeners in the correspondences, et cetera over
AI because I think that there is still part of me.

(30:25):
Let's put it that way. There's still a part of
me that says it's overrated. It is not going to
achieve what people think it's going to achieve. It's another
dot com if you want to, if you want to
go in that direction, and I'd be very concerned about
the future. I would be very concerned about the future
if I believed that it was what so many people

(30:47):
seem to think it is. Yeah, so you critique me, sure, well.

Speaker 3 (30:51):
I think most people, unfortunately have a difference, have trouble
differentiating science from science fiction in so many ways, and
in the same vein reality versus Hollywood. Hollywood would have
you believe that artificial intelligence is terminator too, that it's
I Robot, that it's two thousand and one Space Odyssey.
I can't do that for you, how things of that nature.

(31:12):
And the reality is that artificial intelligence is a tool
and your toolbox that you can leverage for success. It's
a force multiplier that allows you to have access to
knowledge that you previously didn't and I think that's a
tremendous opportunity for so many And ultimately, what I think
about artificial intelligence is that it can really help people
become better versions of themselves. And what I mean by

(31:35):
that is the people who have ideas. For example, let's
say that someone thought that they might be an inventor,
but didn't know how to make a website, or didn't
know how to do marketing or things of that nature.
Now has an amazing tool called AI to kind of
fill in those gaps. You know, somebody who is a
school board candidate or running for local office. They have
some good ideas about how they could help people, but

(31:56):
didn't know how to draft a campaign speech or to
market in a political setting, but now they have AI
to leverage that ability, and so AI is a really
good force multiplier and allowing people with ideas to come
to life like we've never seen before. And I think
that if we do this right, and there are dangers
and we can talk about that, but if we do
this right, AI is going to enable more human flourishing

(32:17):
than we've ever seen before in the past. And I
understand the concern. I remember when candle makers in the
nineteen twenty said this electricity thing is going to be terrible,
and yeah, fast forward to today. You can still buy
candles on Etsy. But electricity has saved moral lives, allowed
for us to live longer, healthier, happier lives with medicine
and even just being able to have a light on

(32:38):
what you need it so you don't fall down to
anything of that nature, or maybe even have access to
medicine because we can refrigerate things for a longer period
of time. And so this is the next step in technology.
Artificial intelligence is going to allow for tremendous flourishing. It's
going to be choppy, for sure. People are going to
lose jobs, and there are going to be situations that

(32:59):
aren't great. But the biggest pushback I get is, Stephen,
isn't this just going to take everybody's job? And my
answer to that is it's humans that are using AI
that are going to run over people that are not.
And again, people think that AI is some sentient being
and it's not. This is algorithms, you know, this is
transformer architecture at the end of the day, GPT chat GPT.
GPT stands for generative pre trained transformer, So that's kind

(33:24):
of what's happening. And at a more basic level, and
this is grossly oversimplifying it, but it's autocomplete. And so
if I say the words the cat in the next word,
most logically probably a ninety five percent, you know, expectation
is hat cat in the hat. And that's ultimately what
AI is doing as it's using predictive text to generate

(33:46):
content back. Now there's other modality it's beyond text, but
largely it's the same process of being able to predictively
model what should be popping up, what should be created,
things of that nature. And I think that's really really
exciting and really cool. But to demystify it a little bit, again,
it's not some sentient being that we're unlocking. This is
powerful algorithmic computers that were making smart sentient being. Yeah,

(34:09):
so I think, you know, the doomers, like as I
like to say, the dumers, would have you believe that
this AI is something that has you know, wants, has
desires that are independent of the creator. And what you
see as we create AI models increasingly is that it's
the foundation of which you build the model that really

(34:29):
pushes where it goes. And so, for example, there's a
good example with Google Gemini. Before it was called Gemini,
it was called Google Bard in twenty twenty three, and
if you asked Google Bard to create images of the pope,
it would create a female one.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
It would create an Indian man.

Speaker 3 (34:45):
Even though popes have always traditionally been you know, old
white guys. But what happens is basically Google had as
a foundation program diversity into the model, and that's why
it was producing those outcomes. And so there's other ways
to produce these foundations, and Google has figured it out
already with Gemini. They took barred behind the barn and

(35:06):
shot it and came back with Google Gemini, and now
it's a much stronger foundation was that.

Speaker 2 (35:11):
The first AI murder.

Speaker 3 (35:13):
You know, it seems to be the most public execution
for sure, the most public rejection of an AI system
that I had seen at the time, and there's been
some other examples since. But you know, we look at
Elon Musk and Grock, which is one where its foundation
is to be the most truth seeking model. We see
open AI as being the model. Foundation is to help everyone,

(35:35):
and so there's different foundations at this point, but they're
all structured in such a way to make humans paramount.
Humans are always in the loop and the biggest part
of the progress.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
Okay, so that's not what's to stop it happening sometime
down track.

Speaker 3 (35:49):
Yeah, that means that we have to have the foundation
right as these things continue to develop, because we're at
the advent of what we call artificial general intelligence, what's
called AGI. But that's not going to be that's not
going to stop, and we're going to keep moving forward,
I think for people that have just got on this journey,
if you're curious, we've had a NI for quite some time,
which is artificial narrow intelligence, right, and it was Gary

(36:09):
Kasparroff in nineteen ninety one that faced off against IBM's
deep Blue and Gary Kasparoff starts with E four Deep
Blue responds with C three. The sicilian I'm trying to
make chests sound more exciting, but they're battling back and forth,
back and forth, and Gary Kasparoff at the end tips
over is king.

Speaker 2 (36:25):
The machine has beat the man.

Speaker 3 (36:27):
And now, of course you log onto any chess dot
com or situation, and you're going to find that these
smart computers are really good at chess, is better than
every human for sure. And that's been narrow intelligence. We
are at the advent of artificial general intelligence. So what
was going to happen here is basically, it's good at
a wide range of functions, tools and tasks, meaning that
it can search the internet for you, develop research reports,

(36:49):
and create tweets and blog posts and really fun videos
and things of that nature. But the path we're going on,
like I said, is to ASI, which is artificial super intelligence.
The machines training the machines, and ultimately, if you think
of AGI and there's ten people in a room, it's
smart as smart as everybody else in the room, maybe
a little dumber, maybe a little smarter, depending on the person.

(37:10):
And with ASI, it's going to be smarter than all
ten of those people in the room combined as one entity.
And so it's really important that we get the foundation
right and I think we have a lot of AI
safety measures have been put in and we've really been
working at making sure this is being done in the
best way possible.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
Okay, so what about the effect on mental health?

Speaker 3 (37:30):
Yeah, so I think AI actually has unlocked a lot
in the walm of mental health. There's pluses and minuses here,
so I'll acknowledge the minuses first and then go to
the pluses. On the minus front, AI when it comes
to mental health can really be negative.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
If it is your only best friend.

Speaker 3 (37:49):
And what I mean by that is sometimes people are
now using AI to have relationships, and I think that
can be inherent that can be inherently negative. I mean,
there's not going to be too far in the future
where parents that are listening to this are gonna have
to say to their kid, Hey, you have TODT a human.
You cannot date that AI chatbot that's already happening today.
And I think that's incredibly how bad description. Yeah, So, basically,

(38:11):
when it comes to dating the AI chatbot, they're able
to take on personas or characters, and so people have
AI girlfriends, and there's also AI pornography and things of
that nature, which are I think tremendously negative on mental
health because again, these aren't humans. This is a bot
that's been trained to reinforce you at all points and
never see that you're wrong, and always compliment you and

(38:31):
be your confident and best friend. And I think that's
it can be used for good and used for bad
as it relates to mental health. And so now flipping
on a switch to the good side of things, think
about that for a second. Therapy is one of the
most powerful things humans have to overcome obstacles, whether that's
post traumatic stress disorder or maybe they had a traumatic
instance in their life something to that effect, and they

(38:53):
can now use and leverage these AI chatbot technologies to
have you know, real therapeutic sessions, work through things and
ultimately come out on the other side a little healthier
and happier because they needed somebody to listen to and
maybe they couldn't afford a therapist. And so I do
think AI can help with mental health, and I think
it can hurt with mental health in some pretty traumatic ways,

(39:14):
becoming dependent on them, Yeah, becoming overly dependent on it.
I think human connection is one of the most powerful
things in the entire world. When humans get together, they
can build incredible things like AI technology. And what I
worry about is humans that become overly dependent on AI technology,
siloed themselves from the world and don't communicate in the
public square wherever that may be.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
You've never been asked this question before. Could an AI
entity ever become the President of the United States? Yes, yeah,
I definitely think that's the case.

Speaker 3 (39:44):
And even now you've got me spooked. Okay, there we go.
And you know, I think it would have a different name.
I don't think it'd be called the President. I still
think there would be humans in control. But we already
see beginnings of this. And so, for example, in Albania,
you can look this up, there's an AI minister, an
AI minister that's helping do government services across the government

(40:08):
of our Bania. In Wyoming, there was a guy called
vic v C who was a human conduit for chat
CHPT who said he would only do what the AI
would tell him what to do, and that's how he
would vote, that's how he would legislate, and things of
that nature, would him. No, definitely not. He didn't receive
very many votes. Yeah, he didn't receive very many votes.
But I will say you will see AI become increasingly

(40:30):
a part of governmental systems due to efficiency. If I'm
able to help more people. In America, we've got something
called the DMV, which is basically where you get your
car license from and registration and basically how you can
operate a motor vehicle in the state of Montana and
in the state of Montana and in the country of America.
And if we're able to make the DMV more efficient

(40:51):
and help more people, that's a pretty good thing. And
I think that's what you're going to start to see
AI slowly becoming a part of governmental systems that allows
more efficiency gains. And then as that happens, you're going
to see more trust. And then when the question is, well,
should we go left or should we go right, and
the AI has a pretty reasonably sound judgment, I think
that's going to start to wait in those discussions saying Okay, well,

(41:13):
AI says we should go right, and so we start
to take the right path. And of course humans are
in control at all times, but ultimately assume that we
keep going in this artificial superintelligence path, then I do
think you'll see people that want to defer power to
AI systems completely because they can be in their minds
wiser with their judgments.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
If you've got people who are always in control, and
AI depends on the instructions or however you frame it,
then what's what's stopping the evil seeping from the individuals
who are in control utilizing AI for their own purposes.

Speaker 3 (41:49):
Yeah, that's a great question, and I think that's an
important question to ask because we are fundamentally in a
terminal race condition. So let's say, you know, America decides
let's just stop, let's stop developing AI, let's press pause,
let's study, let's figure it out some more. You know,
do you think China's going to stop? Do you think
Russia is going to stop? Or North Korea? The answer
is no, definitely not. And so what I mean by

(42:11):
terminal race condition is means we are forced into a
race to see who gets to basically artificial superintelligence first.
In my mind, there are good guys in this story,
and the good guys are ones with Western values, ones
that promote, you know, the essence of the Magna carta
ones that promote the essence of the Constitution and the
Bill of Rights, and I think, yeah, no, they don't,

(42:32):
which is really a tragedy in terms of public education.
I can't tell you how many times we have Constitution
Day in America, which is September fifteenth generally, sometimes the seventeenth.
That switches based on days. But people keep reading back
to me the Declaration of Independence on Constitution Day, and
I'm like, these are different documents. So it's crazy in
public education that people don't understand the difference and nuances

(42:55):
between the two. But yeah, back to this AI system.
So if let's say the good guys, like I said,
Western values wins, then I think that we're going to
have a benevolent AI that is going to try and
cause more human flourishing, allowing people to live again, healthier,
happier and longer lives. But if the opposite side wins,
and in this case, I'm going to pick on China

(43:17):
just a little bit with their AI systems like Quen,
like deep Seek and others. If you ask it, you
know what happened in Tianaman Square. Nothing happened in Tianaman
Square to according to that AI system, Oh everybody knows that, Yeah, exactly,
and so that's really a danger for sure. And so
because we're in this terminal race condition, I think we
have to continue to develop, have to continue to grow,

(43:39):
and again we have the safety in check at this point.
We have really good foundational models that are built to
help humans flourish. They're not built to be evil in
any way, shape or form. And when you think about
the possibilities of prompt injection as we call it, or
the chance for someone to kind of co op this
AI system for wrong or to be mean or to

(44:01):
be evil. Right now, we've got significant efforts that's called
red teaming that prevents it. But even more than that,
there's a lot of government regulation and oversight now that
is making sure that's not the case. And so thankfully
there's not one person that can just you know, in
a lab, create an AI system, at least up until
this point. It's teams of people. And when teams of
people are working together, that means that you're taking input

(44:24):
from various people, which is I think a very good thing.
It's a coalition, so to speak. And so in the
same way that we have the United Nations think about
the United Nations developing artificial intelligence. There's not one country
that's ruining it, right, you know, it's not the United
States or Russia that's able to dominate the field. Because
there's a whole bunch of people working together, there's more

(44:45):
of a chance that we're working towards shared goals.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
So how's the UN done so far in its lifespan
on that basis?

Speaker 3 (44:52):
Yeah, So the UN in the fifties and sixties pretty fantastic,
I think, you know, I remember when it was the
League of Nations and then ultimately become the United Nations,
and ultimately they did a pretty good job at the beginning.
I think now you're starting to see some shortcomings of
the UN and whether that was you know, Saudi Arabia
being a part of the Human Rights Council or you know,

(45:14):
other other things. There's a lot of critiques of the
UN that I could make, for sure, But at the
end of the day, I can't think of a better
system that we that would allow for uh civilization globally
to kind of connect. So I do think there's a
need for it still, but yeah, it could use some
updates into the twenty first century.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
All right, So we've got, we've got, we're on the
road to g A I A G I Yeah, no,
g A ok yeah, Grand Artificial Intelligence. Okay, that's the
that's the new name. I've just said. I love it,
for it for down the track g A I. I
like it, Grand Artificial Intelligence. What happens to those who

(45:53):
are listen intelligent, those who are the byproduct of shall
we say, unintended consequences that don't have family support, And
the question might be that will g A I undermine
family the existence? What happens to those people who pushed
aside and lift to their own devices, or the suggestion comes, well,

(46:17):
they're of no use to anybody, so let's terminate.

Speaker 3 (46:20):
No, definitely don't want that to happen. And in fact,
what's retool them and make them useful in so many ways.
So yeah, I'd push back a little bit, only in
that Let's imagine there's somebody and I'll just create an
anecdote if possible. So there's a person who has been
pushed out or cast out from society so to speak,
right now, and we're worried about them getting left behind

(46:42):
or becoming irrelevant or useless. And so if that's the case,
how can we bring them back into the fold. One
thing I'd recommend is using AI for their education, and
so for example, like Alexander the Great had Aristotle teaching
him how to become wise beyond his years, we can
have AI systems that meet people where they're at. You know,
people who listen to this podcast may switch it to

(47:04):
times two speed. If they're a little bit smarter, they
might switch it to a point five speed if they
want to slow down, want to hear every single word.
And that's one of the powers of AI and education
is it's able to meet people where they're at and
take them on a journey towards practicality or usefulness in
so many ways. And there's going to be a lot
of ways people can be useful and helpful. I think
one of the greatest fallacies in economics that certainly applies

(47:27):
to AI is that of a fixed pie that there's
only so much to go around, and constantly we see
that the pie expands and the pie grows. The example
I'd pull at you right now is that of the iPhone.
The iPhone is created and all of a sudden, now
we have a trillion dollar business inside of the iPhone.
And it's called the Apple App Store. And in that
app store there's over trillion dollars of business being done.

(47:48):
Whether it's Spotify, or whether it's iTunes, or whether it's
your favorite note taking app or candy Crush.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
This is a whole new economy that's happened.

Speaker 3 (47:57):
And so you're going to see with AI tremendous opportunity
for people who have been out of civilization at this
point to be able to reinsert themselves into it through
AI education towards their because the AI is going to
take them where they want to go. And so let's
say someone wants to become, you know, proficient in another language, Well,
a I can teach you how to speak a different language.

(48:18):
And let's say you want to build up a skill,
A I can teach you that skill. There has to
be the desire of the human at the end of
the day. But we're not going to eradicate people. If
they really want to leave and you know, we can't
teach them, they can hang out, but we're not going
to get rid of them. In fact, there's going to
be more resources available to help them. They're not going
to go hungry. And in America, even now, you see
the poress of the poor with an iPhone, you know,
in their hands as they kind of sort through things,

(48:40):
And so that person on the side is still going
to have immense technology. I have a green bubble. I'm
a Samsung user. Yeah, and why do you not have
an iPhone? Because I love to annoy my wife? And yeah,
I have a dream. I have a dream that one
day I'm not judged by the color of my text bubble,
but by the content of my text message.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
And yeah, I know I ruined the group.

Speaker 3 (49:01):
Chats having a Samsung device because I'm not an I message.
You know, it turns from blue to green for people
who use an iPhone. But quite frankly, I'm a fan
of technology. I found this one to be my favorite
tool when I bought it at the time. You know,
it's got a stylus pen that can take photos, which
is really nice.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
The pin can take photos, Yeah, totally.

Speaker 3 (49:18):
So I can set this down and then if I can,
I'll go selfie style here. I can press this button here,
and I just took a photo. And so how many
times have you need someone to take a photo and
you know you don't have someone, Well, thankfully I've got
my phone, and for people listening right now, I pulled
out the stylus and there's a little button on it.
I press the button and it takes a photo from
my phone at pretty much any distance, which is kind

(49:39):
of cool, and it can be photos or videos. There's
a lot of unique things about these Samsung phones that
are great. And now you see these Samsungs that are
flippable and foldable and all of those types of things.
But for me, I just love the screen size of
this one. I love the video editing capabilities on it
and the photography as well. Now I will say the
newest iPhone has this one beat. But you know, I

(50:01):
buy a new phone once every three years, so I'm
open to going back to iPhone. But at the time
this was the best technology.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
I'm not the greatest to when it comes to technology,
but I've got to tell you that that thing's driving
me crazy. Time. That's new, it's a new seventeen, and
they just keep pushing stuff on you. Yes, you think
you've got it under control, and then they make changes,
I add to it. So frustrating too.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
And I call Apple a beautiful walled garden because when
you're in the garden, you know, your Mac talks to
your iPhone, your iPhone will talk to your iPad and
all these types of things, and no one's talking to me.
Yeah that's fair, but they've got you trapped in this
walled garden. And with the Samsung device. Right now, I'm
able to kind of freely go about my business and pick,
you know, maybe a different laptop than a Mac, or
pick a different tablet than an iPad. So I've got

(50:48):
more opportunity in my mind.

Speaker 2 (50:50):
Here's a list of reasons that people causes or purposes
that people are using AI for at the moment. Love
it and I printed it out in printer friendly to
eliminate pictures and things. And now I realize I'm missing
bit of stuff. But right the top three support support, support,

(51:13):
content creation last year, therapy and companionship this year. Yeah,
we talked about that. Therapy and companionship last year was
number two this year. Number two is organized life specific search,
research and analysis last year, and find purpose, which also

(51:33):
falls under support of course, and then you work your
way through and you edit text is next, explore interests,
learning and education. I'm looking for something outstanding. Number fifteen
is email writing. I do that and cooking. Oh yeah,
I do that too. You cook, I do? Or you
use ai? Oh yeah, totally.

Speaker 3 (51:55):
One thing, just quickly is that I was trying to
lose weight recently, and so I taped into CHATCHYPT help
me lose weight this week, and it gave me, you know,
meals for every day that I should have. And then
I said, even better, give me the shopping list for it.
And it gave me the shop list, and that way
I had all the tools and resources. And did I
think that Pinko Chicken was going to be something I ate? No,
but it was delicious. I really enjoyed it.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
It was great and I did lose weight. It worked well. Congratulations,
thank you. I'm ready for carbo. And then you're going
to put a bag out again. You know, I'll try
not to.

Speaker 3 (52:26):
But I am a big fan of Guinness and that
is my kryptonite and definitely adds to the belly Guinness.

Speaker 2 (52:32):
Oh, I love Guinness. It's so good.

Speaker 3 (52:33):
I thought you didn't drink. Oh I definitely drink. Yes, No,
Charlie doesn't drink.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
I drank.

Speaker 4 (52:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
Oh, I thought I thought you didn't. Well knew I
loved it. I knew that he didn't drink all the
drink with you. After this, you got another appointment, I do, sadly. Yeah, However,
you don't know what you've just created for yourself, all right.
So look, the third matter that I wanted to raise
with you was American politics today. Yes, and I know

(53:00):
you're into it and up to it. In the New
York elections, there was a result that I think everybody
expected it because of all the indicators. But there is
now sort of feedback about how you feel about it,
what you're going to do about it. And I've got
some I've got some headlines, and I want to bounce

(53:20):
them off you. Please. Here's one from somebody who who
I really appreciate. Are you familiar with kerch Schlichter. Yes,
I'm familiar with the name. Love Kurt Schlichter's work. Tuesday
Night sucked. Now get over it, and everything is written
sort of back set up. I mean, I'll give you
an example. While we lost everything, the end result was

(53:43):
not a disaster of Obama twenty twelve proportions, well except
for New York City. The election was the equivalent of
walking down a Scat Francisco sidewalk barefoot after a hobo
chili cook off. Oh gosh. But it did not illustrate
any great new truths. It illustrated old truths. It just sucked.

(54:03):
But it's important that we learn what we can from
it and get ready for twenty twelve. I predicted it,
but it still sucks. Giving you sod on then yeah,
well big government sucks.

Speaker 3 (54:15):
And so yeah, congratulations to New York six Borough, which
is Florida, because people are going to run away from
this democratic socialist Zohan Mamdani. And you know, again, like
you pointed out, we knew it was going to happen
if you looked at the polls, you looked at the stats,
that was clearly going to be the result. And yeah,
a democratic mayor won in a democratic city, which is

(54:36):
New York City, So you can't be overly surprised by it.
But at the same time, the ideas that he's working
to profess are ones that fundamentally I've been tried before
and aren't going to work. But before I get to
the ideas, the other thing to kind of really highlight
about this race that I think is something that is
unique is mom Donnie shares thoughts or sentiments that I

(54:57):
would argue are similar to Bernie Sanders, it's people that
want to, you know, break the system. I think, you know,
the average American in so many ways, if there was
one word that was the top of mind, it would
be affordable. And I think a lot of people feel
like they're getting left behind, especially in a city like
New York City. The stock market has never been higher,
and these people are suffering, and the closed then yeah,
shut them, yeah. And the shutdown too was something that

(55:20):
was really eye opening in the state of New York
and in the city of New York City. But on
the second part of this again, these ideas government run
grocery stores, you tax, the ridge schemes, these are things
that have been tried before and have ultimately failed time
and time again. I remember the Soviet Union in those
very long bread lines that didn't look very favorable to me.
And there's no clearer distinction of socialism versus capitalism than

(55:44):
Germany East, Germany versus West. When the Berlin Wall was up,
people were trying to flee, they were trying to run away,
and when they finally were able to, they got out
of there as fast as possible. So I expected exodus
of a lot of people from the state of State
of New York and the City of New York City.
Many people will stay. I think that it's not a
lost cause. I think that people will be able to
succeed there still. But Mamdani's visions are bigger than his britches.

(56:08):
At the end of the day, he's not going to
be able to do a lot of the things he
said he's going to do. For example, taxing the rich
even more is at the governor level. It's not at
the mayor level. And Kathy Hutchell has already said that
she's not going to raise taxes, and so I don't
know how he's going to fund these programs.

Speaker 2 (56:23):
Don't forget that politicians are renowned for breaking their promises.

Speaker 3 (56:27):
Oh completely, and this is going to be really something
of that nature. And this is a pendulum at the
end of the day. And so this was somebody on
the left who is a bit more populist and somebody
who gave a lot of promises that will not be kept.
When people are disappointed, I think you're going to see
the pendulum swing right back to the right. And so yeah,
let's again try these ideas in New York. I'm glad

(56:47):
they're trying them there, or they're not trying them where
I live, because yeah, this is going to fail spectacularly
and unfortunately. You know, as a kid, your parent tells
you not to touch the stove when it's hot, but
as a kid, you're like, ah, man, maybe I should
touch the stove, and then you realize it's hot, and
then you don't do it. And so I think this
is just the next generation unfortunately touching the stove. But again,
as they figure out how hot and wrong these policies are,

(57:10):
again they're going to start to push in the opposite direction.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
At least that's my hope. Want to pull another couple
of stories and get you to critique them. Your opinion
is valuable. Melanie Phillips, the British journalist who is Jewish,
has written a number of very good works on the
subject that we're talking about. She's referred to it as
the Islamist capture of New York. Yes, and this particular

(57:36):
article fills in a lot of holes. New York is
by no means, I'm just picking this out of the middle.
New York is, by no means the only place in
America where Islamisation is making important in roads. The Palestinian
Arab American influencer Abdul Ayad celebrated mam Darmi's victory by
telling Israelis in New York to pack their bags and

(57:58):
get out. He said that they should go to Poland
or Cyprus, but not the Palestine, where they would be
humiliated and removed. Now. This charming individual appeared to be
speaking from play Note, Texas. This city hosts the East
Plano Islamic Center, a restricted Islamic community governed by Sharia
law that has existed for nearly twelve years and compromises

(58:20):
a mega mosque, homes restricted to Muslim purchases, Islamic schools
and Islamic medical clinic, and Islamic businesses. At a public
inquiry into this development last April, Douglas Deaton, an expert
in SWAT tactics and urban threat analysis, gave evidence based
on his experience with the Plan Police Department. One of

(58:43):
the first houses in epic name of the place, he said,
had been positioned with a clear view of some of
the police department's most sensitive tactical assets. That house has
all the hallmarks of a fortress and a command post.
The rear of the house looks a lot like an
observation post and a shooting platform. So there's two parts
to this. One is that she's talking about the Islamist

(59:06):
capture of New York. So are the Islamists and the
Muslims in New York? And I'm sure that you know
that on election night they took over Times Square. I
do know that and prayed. Yeah. I saw the picture
and it scared the hell out of me. Yeah, am

(59:27):
I right?

Speaker 3 (59:28):
You know, I think that the biggest thing that needs
to happen when you become an American is that you assimilate.
The worry I have is that a lot of people
will come to America and try and make it their
country and not become a part of the fabric.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
That's been going on a long time. It just depends
on where they come from. Yeah, that matters, Yeah, totally.

Speaker 3 (59:50):
And there was a band by President Trump in the
past that was very specific in naming out the countries
that were to be banned. And yeah, I think that
sharia law is antithetical to my beliefs personally. I believe
that women have their right to vote and to drive
and to leave their home and not be covered when

(01:00:11):
they do so they can be alone without a man
walking them in from to and from peak places. I
believe that men and women can be gay or lesbian, bisexual,
and things of that nature, and these things just aren't
compatible with the Islamic faith and that of Sharia law.
What you see oftentimes you'll have these gays for Palestine protests,

(01:00:35):
and not protests, but signs at a protest, And I
don't know, it's like, I don't know, lambs cheering on
wolves saying like, yes, come eat me, come eat me,
because if they went to Palestine, they'd be pushed off
the tallest building and killed.

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
And so yeah, I think it's dangerous.

Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
I think that a lot of people on the left
have what I like to call suicidal empathy, where they
really think that they're doing the right thing, but at
the end of the day, it can lead to their
own destruction.

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
So why did thirty percent of Jews in New York
City by for Mamdani?

Speaker 3 (01:01:02):
Yeah, I think they did it because they're culturally Jewish.
There's a big difference between a practicing Jew, and there's
that and then also being a cultural Jew. So some
people are Jewish and the way it descends from the
mother and basically that's their right to be a member
of the tribe, which is exciting and great, but then
they don't practice the tenants of the faith. And so

(01:01:23):
that's what you see in New York often is people
that are culturally Jewish but not religiously practicing Jewish. And
they won't you won't find them at a Shabbat of
Friday night, that's for sure. And so those are the
people that would identify as Jewish that would have voted
from Amdani in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
So talk to me about the Muslim Brotherhood. Yeah, and
the Communist Alliance.

Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
Totally seems to be there is one too, And yeah,
I mean there's been a lot with the Muslim Brotherhood.
And there's even you know, elected politicians in America like
Ilhan Omar from Minnesota, who they believe is married to
her brother, but also said that she had more more
belonging to her previous country than this one America. But
she's a member of Congress, which I find deeply, deeply concerning.

(01:02:06):
And then, of course, the Muslim Brotherhood is very active
in politics and typically exists on the progressive left.

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
And I think that you.

Speaker 3 (01:02:14):
Know, when you think about the Muslim Brotherhood and communism
and socialism. It's really about authoritarian control at the end
of the day, because if you can control the government structure,
then you can kind of force the political apparatus around people,
whether they're willing or unwilling. And I again am on
the opposite side of this, where I think that you
should have individual freedom, and I don't think that's compatible

(01:02:37):
with the Muslim faith. I don't think that's compatible with
socialism or communism at all. Instead, it's marching orders from
the top, telling you what to do, what to say,
and where to go. And I think that's incredibly dangerous
for sure, because again, now if someone does stick out
like a tall blade of grass, they're easily able to
cut you down, and that's not a good thing at all.

Speaker 2 (01:02:54):
Tell me something. If you went back to America tomorrow, yeah,
which you're probably doing. Actually, yeah, that's legit happened. But
when you got there, you found that you found that
America had been taken over by the Muslim brother and
they'd put these plays into action that you just described totally. Well,
what happened to you? I have to talk to me today. Well,

(01:03:16):
I'll tell you what.

Speaker 3 (01:03:16):
I'll go down with the ship and I'm not afraid
to profess what I have to say ever, and I'd
never have been. And so if it's the Titanic and
it's going down, then I'm the one on the ship.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
I'm next to the captain. Are you sure you'd feel
that way when the ship was tilting? I think so.

Speaker 3 (01:03:31):
I do think so, And I think that encourages bravery.
And also I'm you know, I have conviction of my faith,
knowing that there's something else after this life, and so yeah,
I'm not afraid to spend this one, this life fighting
for what's right. And that means, you know, standing in
the same same situation. Often this is a rude comparison,
and I'm nowhere near is great. But the Founding Fathers,

(01:03:52):
you know, we're fighting one of the biggest governmental systems
in the entire world. These kids were twenty twenty four,
twenty six, and John Hancock famously wrote, Hey, you know
this signature. I hope it's big enough for them to
see it. I'm John Hancock, come after me, right, I've
got that same mentality in a lot of ways. I'm
very team freedom and I'm going to fight for it.
I think America is the last best hope for a

(01:04:13):
lot of these ideas that we hold near and dear
and becomes a shining city on a hill for other countries,
especially amazing countries like New Zealand, to emulate. And so
we can't let it fall. And if it does fall
or starts to fall, I'm going to be the one
on the front line trying to make sure it doesn't.
But that's peacefully and patriotically.

Speaker 4 (01:04:29):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
My hope is to always make sure this is not violent.

Speaker 3 (01:04:33):
But if it is, we also have something called the
Second Amendment, and so that's another place of defense. And
there's other people that think like me, a lot of
patriotic voices that would stand shoulder to shoulder with me,
and I think that's a good thing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
I've spent a lot of time on this particular aspect
of American life and here too, in other places, but
specifically America. And you'll understand why. So with you talked
about the Second Amendment, with the activist judges who are
manipulating much of America at this point of time. Yeah,

(01:05:04):
what's your answer. Yeah, so you know, you've got two answers.

Speaker 3 (01:05:07):
The first is there's a terrible boating accident that happened
where I lost all my firearms. So if they ask
for the confistation of firearms, I want to give them,
but unfortunately I lost them in this boating accident. It
was terrible. I can't believe it just happened sarcasm. But
then the other option is saying, hey, I live right
here and I'm not giving you my guns. What are
we going to do about it? And I think that's
the mentality of a lot of Americans who really believe

(01:05:29):
in the Second Amendment. And so this is a scary hypothetical.
But thankfully we've seen over two hundred years of the
Second Amendment in practice and typically speaking, there are immense
tragedies that have happened, especially around schools and especially gun
free zones. To be quite frank with you, in a
world where there are guns, and we've had very peaceful

(01:05:49):
places to exist. Like I said, I'm from the great
state of Montana. You just have to be a half
mile off the road to go shooting. You can open carry,
you can conceal carry. And I'll tell you what, every
neighbor's friendly. We love each other. We're an amazing community
and everybody's welcome too, especially if you assimilate, and so
I think the Second Amendment is an immensely positive success
story of America in many regards. Again, there's been some

(01:06:11):
real tragedy along the way that's unacceptable, But on the whole,
the Second Amendment has allowed for freedom to flourish in
so many places, and I think that's ultimately a good thing.

Speaker 2 (01:06:21):
But that's only if that's only your judges much to
the same regulations.

Speaker 3 (01:06:25):
That's right, But this time this thing is enshrined in
our constitution and so they can restrict it, and they have.
But at the end of the day, it says you
shall not infringe. Those are the first words of the
Second Amendment. And so my hope is that we continue
to have.

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
So let's say that we get to you get to
the point where the three radicals on the Supreme Court
turn into five yeah, and just ignored the Second Amendment
or anything else in the Constitution totally. What happens, Yeah,
civil war.

Speaker 3 (01:06:57):
You know, I think civil wars happened before in America,
and unfortunately it was a traumatic thing that killed millions.
It's America's worst war because everybody that died was an American.

Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
That's terrible.

Speaker 3 (01:07:08):
But the good guys won the Civil War in my eyes,
which was the North, and in the same vein, I
think the good guys will win again. If you think
about who has the guns, it's not the activist judges,
it's not the progressive left. And so if it really
results into something of that nature, and I don't think
that will happen, and I pray that it never happens,
I think my side is more equipped to win that
battle than the other.

Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
Give me predictions for twenty twenty six. Yeah, well, we
got to get our head screwed on straight.

Speaker 3 (01:07:34):
I mean there's a civil war in the Republican Party
right now. I think Libertarians, where I find myself most
of the day days are kind of left out of
discourse and so many regards and so Yeah, in twenty
twenty six, I predict back and forth across the country.
I don't think it's going to be a red wave

(01:07:55):
or a blue wave. I think it's going to be
largely purple. I think you're going to see places like California,
which just approved its redistricting, you know, pick up five
more Democratic seats. I think you're going to see Texas
pick up five more Republican seats. You ask me who's
going to win. I think Republicans will retain the House.
I think the Senate map favors Republicans this side of
the rounds, and so I think that there's going to

(01:08:18):
be probably a plus one situation happening there. And then yeah,
ultimately this is going to be a referendum on Donald
Trump's presidency. And so the worry I have as we
look towards twenty twenty six is the word we used before, affordability.
And if things continue to happen in terms of inflation,
if prices continue to go up, then this is going

(01:08:38):
to be a negative, negative campaign cycle for Republicans, and
I don't want that to happen. But if we are
able to write the ship, if the Supreme Court says
Trump can do tariffs, I think you're going to see
basis points happen with the Federal Reserve. It's going to
go down, so interest rates come down, which then usually
allows for more economic growth and steam behind it. Then
you're going to see pickups by the GOP. And so

(01:09:01):
this is not guaranteed. I think it's going to be
purple no matter what. But if the Federal Reserve does
what it's supposed to if President Trump was able to
maintain his harriffs. I think you're going to see Republicans
win in twenty twenty six barely, but Democrats will win.

Speaker 2 (01:09:13):
Too, okay in the in the next round in twenty eight,
and you've got to JD andsotes.

Speaker 3 (01:09:22):
Yeah, okay, yeah, I mean, I don't think AOC is
going to be the leader of the Democratic Party. While
she's immensely popular, I think she's going to get the
Bernie Sanders treatment, which means that even though they're the
most popular person, the super delegates will decide who the
Democratic nominee is going to be, and I don't think
that's going to be AOC.

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
It's kind of funny.

Speaker 3 (01:09:39):
The Democratic Party is the most undemocratic when it comes
to electing their leaders.

Speaker 2 (01:09:43):
It's so silly.

Speaker 3 (01:09:45):
But yeah, I think it's going to be either JD
or Mark or Rubio on the right and on the left.
I actually see Gavin Newsom being the person who's running
for president in twenty twenty eight that has the most steam.

Speaker 2 (01:09:53):
I know.

Speaker 3 (01:09:53):
Kamala Harris has said she wants to re enter the race,
but she got demolished the first time they tried to
put her in to the political system with zero votes,
and then she gloss again to President Trump in a
sweeping fashion. President Trump won all of the swing states,
won the popular vote, and so it just doesn't make
sense for Kamla to run again at all. But I
think it's going to be Gavin Newsom, and you can
see him taking the steps now to run.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
Yes, you can. Is he believable? You know? Or is
before you answer that, is he believable or is his
presumed ability to adopt some of the approach that man
does he's adopted. Yeah, and I read a very good
description of that, by the way, and how people got
sucked in. But he's capable of succeeding. He's definitely capable

(01:10:40):
of succeeding.

Speaker 3 (01:10:40):
And yeah, I was just going to admit my biases
when I'm like, oh, do I think he's like a
good person? Because I think the answer is no. But
do I think that his supporters think he's a good person?
Do I think he has the leadership to organize a
coalition of people that want to support him for president?

Speaker 2 (01:10:54):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:10:54):
The answers yes there. I think he'll be a very
difficult person to beat too. He's very good at communicating
he's an exceptional orator, and he's been the governor of
one of the largest states in America for quite some time,
and so that's a lot of bonafide credential if you're
looking for someone to lead and you're on the left.
So that's why I think Gavin Newsom will be the
nominee in twenty twenty eight. And honestly, I think they're

(01:11:15):
gonna pay. He's gonna fight JD Vance and I'm worried.
I could see a Gavin Newsom toppling at JD Vance.
But it depends on how we play the Trump administration's
final three years, because what happens there is going to
be completely a referendum of what should happen moving forward.
And if we fail, the Republicans fail, then you're gonna
see Gavin Newsom walk into that office and who knows

(01:11:36):
what's going to happen from there.

Speaker 2 (01:11:38):
Well, based on the witness that I've experienced today, I'd
say that two are a better ratter than he is. Oh,
thank you, So maybe there is space. Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 3 (01:11:50):
And again I'm doing everything I can on my side
to make sure that's not the case. You know, like
I said, we talked about Charlie. I mean, he's put
such a fire in me to keep working as hard
as I can at this stuff. And I'm not the
only one. There's so many people like me that are
now really pressing the gas pedal. For a while, I
thought I was gonna leave politics and kind of take
a bit more of a corporate world. You can make

(01:12:11):
more money in AI helping corporation succeed than helping politicians succeed.
I promise you that, And I felt like that was
going to be my calling. And then I saw my
best friend get shot on social media, and I'll tell
you what, I've never had more of a fire to
fight for freedom. And I think that's a lot of
people out there. So my hope is that there's more
people like me that are trying to fight for what's right.

Speaker 2 (01:12:32):
All right, So just to finish, because you've just mentioned it,
watching that assassination, Yeah, they say that he talked about
it happening. What can you add to that.

Speaker 3 (01:12:43):
Yeah, I don't remember the exact podcast, but I remember
seeing something in the past of him talking about it,
and one of them was actually from the Iced Coffee
Hour with Graham Stephan and one of the hosts there
asked him, how do you want to be remembered, and
he wanted to be remembered as an amazing father, he
wanted to be remember as starting an incredible political organization,

(01:13:03):
to be a podcast host, etc. And the guy said,
it sounds like you're all those things right now. Yeah,
then I guess I've done my job right. And yeah,
I think when it comes to Charlie and his legacy,
I mean, there's no one who's been more meteoric and
a rise and that was a future president in my eyes,
I think that was really somebody who already had changed
the world, but had a lot left to give and

(01:13:24):
was taken from us far too short. But again, he
gave us so much already, and there's so much ammunition,
and there's so much of his spirit and everything that
we do, and so I'm very, very encouraged for the future.
And his legacy lives on. There's an old adage in
America that says heroes get remembered, but legends never die,
and so yeah, Charlie was far beyond a hero. He

(01:13:44):
was a legend, and his legend and his legacy is
never going to die.

Speaker 2 (01:13:48):
Stephen Rowe, I hope you come back. It's been a
pleasure and New Zealand just could be a little bit
better place after your visit.

Speaker 3 (01:13:56):
Hey, thank you so much. It's been an absolute honor.
You've got an amazing studio and it's an honor to
be the third Ish person here.

Speaker 2 (01:14:02):
It's awesome. Here we are into the bail room for
podcast three hundred and ten. Missus producer, How are you, Laighton?

Speaker 4 (01:14:21):
Oh, it's really really good to be here this week.

Speaker 2 (01:14:23):
Thank you. Yes, I understand many wouldn't, but I certainly do.
So what have we got?

Speaker 4 (01:14:32):
Lake and Christine says that was one of the very
best interviews that I've ever heard, and she's talking about
Tony Coleman. How can one person know so much? I
would love my son, who's an economics teacher, to play
it for his class. It's just so informative and comprehensible.
What a lovely gentleman he is. What an absolute manipulator.
Bill Gates's what worries me is that now he's over

(01:14:54):
the climate change con what will his next Tobby hawesby
another plandemic, perhaps that last COVID con our countries in
the world very successfully. Gates only goes where money can
be made. He's no philanthropist, he's a common con man.
If we could stop following this climate change bs, China
wouldn't have such a hold on the world with their

(01:15:15):
supply of rare earth minerals. No more windmills, solar panels,
nor electric cars. They just don't work. Once again, follow
the money. It's just another con for the poor, gullible
idiots to run too many countries.

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
And that's from Chris. Chris. Interesting actually, and off the
back of that, Trump is wrong. Climate change is not
a scam. Now, before you all freak out, let's just
hear the rest of it. As Jane Smith correctly put
in her excellent article the New Zealand Herald on the
sixth of November, the climate has always changed, otherwise we

(01:15:49):
would still be in the ice age. Her article exposes
the considerable distance that exists between climate science and climate politics.
She highlights the folly of ignoring the science of the
carbon cycle as it relates to biogenic methane, particularly in
the case of livestock farming. Climate politics focuses entirely on

(01:16:10):
methane emissions and ignores the harvesting of atmospheric CO two.
In agricultural food production. Food is carbon and carbonis food.
A byproduct is methane, which is returned to the atmosphere
from which it originated. Our lush green pastures are of
vital carbon sink in that process, no less efficient than

(01:16:34):
the trees that climate politics claims will save the world.
The politics, what have you believe? That forests are all
about carbon capture? Never mentioned are the methane emissions that
occur in the same way as for agriculture. Tons of
forest floor litter are digested by soil microbes and the

(01:16:55):
resulting methane is returned to the atmosphere. Imagine if the
true balance of the carbon cycle was recognized. The Greens
claim that agriculture is responsible for forty eight percent of
New Zealand's emissions would be the bunk. The Greens claim
that agriculture is responsible for forty eight percent of New
Zealand emissions would be the bunk, and the billions of

(01:17:18):
dollars we pay into the ets could build hospitals instead.
Clearly the real scam is climate politics. George, It's all
very good. I just don't understand what you're talking about
at the top, and you're opening Trump is wrong. Climate

(01:17:38):
change is not a scam. The climate change of politics
that you go on to talk about is a scam.
And that's the beginning. So you've got me confused, So
follow up if you would.

Speaker 4 (01:17:51):
Laydon Jen says, I really appreciate that you've got Tony
Coleman from New Zealand Golden Merchants to talk about gold
as an alternative to diversifying investments. This is an increasingly
important topic given the evil World Economic Forum. Elite types
are all scheming to gain control over our hard earned
wealth by enforcing cbdc's down our throats. Until your recent podcast,

(01:18:15):
I haven't personally come across any New Zealand podcasts that
cover the topic of gold. While we are more familiar
with investing in kiwisaver managed funds, company shares or even cryptocurrency,
many are not so sure how to deal with gold,
how to buy, when to buy, where to store, how
to safeguard, how to bequeath and as with all investments,

(01:18:36):
how rich do you have to be before you can
even dabble in gold? Thanks again, lateon. This is why
I never miss a single podcast of yours ever since
you started.

Speaker 2 (01:18:45):
Very generous. Thank you and most of those questions were answered,
I think from Deborah Wow. I thought, well, this could
be a bit boring. How wrong I was. Tony Coleman
had such a pleasant, easy to listen to voice, and
I could understand everything he said. Meantime, I sometimes get

(01:19:07):
confused to investment people. Well done and thank you from debs,
and I'm knocked this one off took. New York is
fast becoming London London. The election of Zoran Mamdani as
New York's mayor is an unbridled display of peak insanity.

(01:19:27):
I guess inmates will always elect the joker to rule
the asylum. I find it ironic that during the last
US election, the Democrats keep screaming, or kept screaming at
Donald Trump to turn down the heat while calling him
hitler and then trying to assassinate him. Yet as soon
as man Dabi was elected, Mamdani was yelling at Trump

(01:19:49):
to turn the volume up. The progressive left are truly
certifiably insane. I find it difficult to debate that they're
rebranding Mamdani's communism as democratic socialism. Ben Shapiro recently defined
democratic socialism merely as communism. She through democratic means in fact,

(01:20:10):
he hilariously suggested that if we want to predict what
Mamdani will become in future, just look at Bernie Sanders,
who is like the old version of Mamdani. And New
York had ample opportunity to learn from the mistakes of others.
London elected a Muslim mayor in Sudik Khan, New Zealand
elected the country's youngest PM ever and Jacinda Adern. Canada

(01:20:33):
elected a charismatic PM in Justin Trudeau. Was he really charismatic?
He never appealed to me. London, New Zealand, and Canada
are still all reeling from these ideologically possessed leaders. Hegel's
observation that we learn from history that we do not
learn from history is repeating itself before our very eyes.

(01:20:55):
New York, you've now got the joker, where's Batman? And
that we'll do for this week. Thanks so much, lateon,
Thank you so much. Now go out and take care.
Oh well, have a lovely day. You see you next week,
Layton Smith. Now before we go, let me hint it.

(01:21:25):
Next week's a little which is something I don't like doing.
I've done it once or twice in the past, and
on each occasion something went wrong. But on this occasion
I'm pretty well, I'm reasonably sure that it won't because
next week's in of View is already in the can.
But there is a considerable amount of talk around at
the moment about the state of England, the state of

(01:21:48):
Britain if you want, the British Isles, whatever, but England
in particular, and it goes like this, will there always
be in England? And I'll leave you with this follow up.
There will always be in England, but only if there
are always Englishmen. There will only be Englishmen if Englishmen
are willing to struggle for their ideas as a people.

(01:22:09):
That is, if being English means as much to them
as it meant to their ancestors, does it for the
first time since the tenth century emergence of the English
as a nation out of the chaos of Anglo Saxon tribes,
That is the question. If you'd like to write to
us Layton at NEWSTALKSIB dot co dot Nz, Layton at

(01:22:31):
NEWSTALKSB dot Co dot Nz, Carolyn at NEWSTALKSB dot Co
dot NZ, we shall return with three hundred and eleven.
Until then, thank you so much for listening and we'll
talk soon.

Speaker 1 (01:22:52):
Thank you for more from NEWSTALKSB Listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio

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Leighton Smith Podcast #310 - November 12th 2025 - Stephen Rowe

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Leighton Smith Podcast #310 - November 12th 2025 - Stephen Rowe