October 17, 2025 • 51 mins
In a world where our attention is constantly pulled in multiple directions, how do we regain control of our focus? Professor Gloria Mark from the University of California, has spent her career studying what's happening to our attention spans and she joins Francesca and Louise to share some surprising statistics.
It's a wonder we get anything done at all! But don't panic, Gloria also shares plenty of great advice to help us reclaim our focus.
This is the last episode of The Little Things for 2025. We'll be back next year to dive into more of the little things!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Louise Aria and I'm Francesca Rudgin and welcome
to our final episode for season five at our New
Zealand Herald podcast, The Little Things.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Thanks for joining us in this podcast. We sit down
with the experts in their fields to unpack the little
things that can help us navigate life at our agent
stage and really at any agent stage, where he had
to cut through the overload of information and get to
the nitty gritty other things that impact us every day.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
So at the beginning of the year, Louise, I don't
know if you remember, but we were talking about what
we'd love to get out of this podcast and things
to work on throughout the year, and I said to you,
I made a comment about my shitty attention span. Do
you remember this? Like it had been summer, and I
was really excited. I had this pile of books to
read and I was really looking forward to just tearing
into them. And I'd pick up a book and then
(00:45):
five minutes later I'd be picking up my phone going, Oh,
what's happened in the world, what's the news, which was
absolutely ridiculous because it's Christmas and there is no news,
nothing happens and it didn't matter how many days I
did this and there was still no news. I just
found myself completely distracted, so easily distracted. And I was
quite surprised by this.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
And it's not like you, because you love a book.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I know that's the thing. That's why it took me
by That's what took me by surprise. Nobody's surprised about
my lack of attention span. Oh, I have a lack
of attention span in other areas of my life that
they were already obvious. I think that's probably why it's Yeah,
I don't hasn't improved.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
How is it now? You know?
Speaker 1 (01:21):
It has improved immensely, But that's because but I had
to do a bit of work on it, like I
had to, and mostly it's improved around my work day,
Like I've actually gone, I'm going to sit and I'm
going to get this task completed before I look at
emails and before I pick up my phone and respond
to texts, and before I'm distracted by other people needing
other things from me. So I actually had to put
a few boundaries and sort of just put some structure
(01:43):
around my work, and actually I am getting it all
done a lot faster, and I really enjoyed a lot
of my work is writing, whether it's podcasts or film
reviews and things like that, and I love getting into
the flow of it. And I was noticing that every
time I was getting distracted by something else or someone
needing something else, I'd just kind of I'd stop and
I'd get out of that flow. So it's yeah, no,
it's that's worked well, but I still struggle with the book.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Maybe you should try and write one.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
God, no, you've got a pretty good attention span, though.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Oh my god, it's just no mine has. So you've
improved through the year. Mine has actually gotten the worse.
When I say improved, it's just well, I mean if
I do things like set in my phone for forty
five minutes, right, put a thing on timer forty five minutes,
or do a block of work if I have one task.
But I think the difference is I've got more, As
(02:33):
you know, I used to work on one project at
a time. Now I'm working on that's my problem. I've
got a whole lot of different jobs. Yeah, and that's
where it all disappears. You give something some attention for
a little while, and then somebody needs you for something
on something else, or and it might be FTU wise
divided into days that I get paid by which project,
but it's not the same in my head, perhaps I
(02:53):
should do it that way, but it doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
And then I work from home, so I'm distracted by
I'll just quickly do that laundry. Oh, what's in the pantry?
What's in the fridge that I don't know? The fridge
in the pantry are hugely distracting.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
I'm so much worse if I work from home. Frenchhyse
Spirt's ridiculous. And again I've got something that just got
a deadline, and I'm fine on a deadline. But you
know where I noticed? I joined a gym, and it
was the university gym, which is stunning if you get
a chance to see, it's beautiful. But it's full of
really young people, which was fine. I could have stayed there,
but it just ended up taking up too much time
(03:26):
in my day. But you know how exercises changed, right,
so now we're lifting heavier, fewer sets and fewer reps.
But between the reps, between sets, you're supposed to have
a two minute rest, right, according to my son, Strengthen
and gndising coach, Mum, you need that two minutes. You
need to be readio. Now, why can't I just sit
(03:48):
or stand up and eat someone else use a machine
or something and just steering to know for a couple
of minutes. I can't do it.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
And you're always on your phone or something.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Everybody is, everybody is you just shuffle to the end
of the ever read is it your machine you're on
and don't make eye contact no matter what, and just
look at your phone until that time is up and
then you go back to your exercise. It's like, I
don't know, I'm a self interrupter. I'm my own worst
enemy and I'm over it and I want to be
free of it.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Lets you're honest about it. We're own own worst enemies.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
So we're at that point of the year, aren't we that.
You know a lot of people are feeling quite tired.
The year is winding down, and yet we feel like
we're winding up because we've just realized it's nearly the
end of the year and there's ape too. The pressure
is on to complete work projects, take off, end of
your events before the beautiful summer holidays. We hope it
seemed like a good time to talk about focus and
(04:38):
our attention spans and help us get to the end
of the year in one piece.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yeah So, back in twenty twenty three, I covered this
topic on newstalk Z'B with a fabulous academic and author,
Gloria Mark. Gloria is a Chancellor's Professor of Informatics at
the University of California. She has a PhD in psychology
and studies the impact of digital media on our lives.
Her researchocuses on digital devices and the role they play
(05:02):
in multitasking, interruptions, and our mood. Gloria has written a book.
It's called Attention Span, Finding Focus for Fulfilling Life. And
Gloria Mark is with us now, welcome, Good to have
you with us.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
It's very nice to be here.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So, Gloria, I mean, before you join us, Francisca and
I we're just talking about our oscillating attention spans, will
be the most polite way of putting it. Mine seems
to have gotten worse. Francisca is maybe a tiny little
bit better from having worked on it a bit. How
have our lives changed in the modern digital area era?
And is that the driver for our lack of attention.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
I would say it, yet it's because you mentioned I've
been studying attention for a long time. I've been empirically
tracking attention, and over a twenty year period, our attention
spans on screens declined. Back around twenty two thousand and four,
(05:59):
the hour averaged about two and a half minutes on
a screen before people switched to something else, and starting
from around twenty sixteen, they were averaging forty seven seconds.
And these studies have been repeated multiple times, so our
attention spans have declined.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Forty seven seconds, not even a minute. We can't even
give something a minute now.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Now that's the average, but if you look at the median,
the midpoint of all the data, it's worse. It's forty seconds.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Can you just put that in perspective? If I'm just
imagining myself sitting at my desk with my screen screens
multiple because I can't just say one screen anymore in
front of me. Do you mean I'm looking? So just
take me, make me average most people do. I'm staring
at my screen for forty seven seconds, and I want
I get a thing on my phone so I look
(06:56):
at it. I'm just trying to make this relatable.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Yeah, so you suddenly switch look at your phone, then
you go back, you're trying to read an article. Maybe
you can pay attention for two or three minutes, but
then all of a sudden, you've got texting, You check
your email, you decided you want to check news, and
so you have this flurry of screen changes and then
(07:21):
maybe you go back, you read it, maybe spend another
couple of minutes on the article. So it's you know,
it varies, there's variability, but we're talking about the average,
and again we talk about the midpoint. Right. Half the
data means is that our attention spans are longer than
(07:43):
forty seconds, but half the data shows that our attention
spans are shorter than forty seconds.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
So if you take those these decades that you've been
sort of tracking our screen use in things, Gloria, are
you surprised by these results and what you see today
or did you very much anticipate that this is the
way things were going to go.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
I was surprised. I was initially surprised when I first
started tracking attention because when I looked at all of
our activities, not just paying attention to a screen, but
how long people had interactions in the workplace, and how
often they read documents. That was every three minutes that
(08:27):
people were switching activities, and if we just looked at attention,
that was two and a half minutes. That surprised me.
I thought it was going to be like ten minutes.
So having had that first shock, I guess you know,
I was less surprised to see that they had diminished.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Is it a respective of age?
Speaker 3 (08:53):
So yes, In the workplace, most of our workers were
between twenty five and forty five or twenty five and fifty,
we didn't see any age differences. And the average attention
span of young people in college was forty eight seconds,
so there really wasn't any difference there.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Gloria, how do you track attention?
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Yeah, so we use a software that can track when
someone clicks on a window to bring it in the forefront. Now,
this is a proxy of where we're paying attention. It's
not perfect, but it's it's very good, and the assumption
is that if a window is in the forefront, that
(09:43):
you're paying attention. Right. It's not perfect, of course, but
it does give us a sense of screen changes. So
every time someone clicks to bring some other window to
the forefront. Then you know, that's what we capture.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Okay, So if we we can either blame ourselves and
and you know, just tell ourselves we're bad, we're useless,
well plus what's wrong with us? Or we can really
and I'm sure we've done this, figure out what it
is that's driving this change and attention span. It can't
be our faultually.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
No, it's it's not. I mean, we were not innocent,
to be honest. But there are a lot of factors
going on. So there are algorithms and as you know,
every time we go on the web, we click on
things that we like, we visit sites, and all of
(10:45):
our web activity is captured and profiles of our interests
are created. And these profiles then are what tech companies use,
ad remarketing companies use to gear information to us. And
so of course, if it's something you're interested in, it's
(11:06):
it's hard to resist. So, and algorithms are really quite
sophisticated and powerful in capturing attention. And of course they
some of them appealed to very basic emotions like surprise
and excitement and anger, and it's it's very hard to
(11:27):
not be attracted to information that incites these kinds of emotions.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
So there's that, because sorry, I'm just thinking. An example
of that would be, you know, we get our news
online now, right, So I go to open my usual
source of news from a no online newspaper, and before
I know it, I'm looking at my favorite braind of
running shoe and then I'm saying, oh, is it on sale?
Could I get it even cheaper? And I've gone down
(11:54):
that yeah, at least than forty seconds.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
In my book, I write about a scenario about how
I'm being tracked by boots because what happened to me
once was I looked at a pair of boots and
you know, I don't know, these are interesting? But then
I clicked away, and every time I went to a website,
an image of those boots would appear. They were taunting me,
(12:23):
you know they would, you know they would, yeah, And
you know it was it was hard to to not
pay attention to them. The only way out would be
to purchase those boots.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
So yes, but I quite like the expression you use
being tracked by, because you do feel like you're being
a bit stalked sometimes. I mean, I wonder if that's
quite a good way to think about it, just to
keep your head in the right place. So you mentioned
the algorithms because you've got we've got this personal technology
which probably on its own could be really useful and
(13:04):
valuable in our lives. But then we're we've added things
to it. And I'm presuming it's the adit the addition
of the things like algorithms, and that that is the
reason for this lack a focus.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
But also there there are things that are just part
of our humanity that we can't avoid. For example, social dynamics.
We're social creatures and you know in real life we're
attracted to other people. We have pure pressure. There's we
(13:38):
deal in social capital. So someone does a favor to you,
you want to do a favor back. So there's a
number of these kinds of social dynamics that influence us
when we're online. So for example, why why do we
check email? Well, you might get that really important message
(14:01):
and then but you also want to answer it because
maybe you want that person to be able to do
a favor for you someday and answer your email. We
answer text messages because we want to maintain social capital,
so and slack the same kind of thing. So there
are all kinds of social dynamics that are just wrapped
(14:25):
up into how we use our tech.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
How long if we have been distracted, how long do
we know how long it takes for us to get
back on task?
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Yeah, so we had measured this in terms of projects,
so I have to I have to unwrap this. So
we switch our attention every forty seven seconds. But some
of that attention switching is within the same project. So
(14:58):
if I'm writing a I might be switching continually, but
it's all about the same paper, so it's the same topic.
And we switch projects about every eleven minutes or so.
But when we switch out of a project, then it
takes about twenty three and a half minutes to be
(15:20):
able to resume work in that interrupted project.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
And in case again I need a visual, So we're
not sitting there for twenty three minutes going and then
at twenty three minutes where we are just not effective,
we're not productive on that task. Is that what it is?
Speaker 3 (15:38):
What we're actually doing is we're switching out of one
project into another project. We work on that and then
we switch into another one, and then this is like
the pattern of the data. Then we start to switch
again into another one, So we go back to the
first one.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Right, so you're doing eleven minutes here, eleven minutes there,
eleven minutes there.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Okay, exactly right, exactly So by the time you resume
that interrupted work, the original project, your mind has been elsewhere,
and then elsewhere again, and then again, and then you
go back. So it's very hard to reconstruct the work
(16:21):
that you had originally been doing.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
What do we do about that, Gloria? It seems to
me just understanding or maybe just being a little bit
more aware when we sit down at our desks tomorrow
or today of how we're working is probably the first step.
In order to do anything about our attention. You probably
have to kind of be a little bit honest about
you to yourself with your own attention.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Yeah, of course we do. We have to be aware
of the problem, the fact that we have a hard
time paying attention, the fact that there are so many distractions.
So absolutely that's the first step.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
It's funny, isn't it, Because I don't know the physiological
stuff around that don't mean things, but we think we're
getting We think that that's quite fun right, going from
project to project or going oh, that looks more and
that's shinier. I'll have a look at that. I'll have
a look at that. But actually, what Francesca is talking
about is learning yourself and adapting and maybe having a
strategy around it is actually much more self soothing than
(17:26):
the sort of frenetic changing around all the time. Would
that be right?
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
So you know, people think that it helps our performance
to be able to multitask, right, People think, wow, I'm
a great multitasker. I can get so much done. But
the reality is that it actually harms our performance. But
(17:53):
let me first explain that multitasking doesn't mean doing two
things exactly at the same time, right. Humans are not
wired to be able to do that. Our brains just
don't work that way unless one of those things is automatic.
So you can walk and text at the same time.
(18:16):
Because walking is automatic, we're not thinking about it, we're
thinking about texting. But as soon as you know, I'm
in New York City and we have crazy bicyclists, and
as soon as a bicyclist tries to grind me over,
I will stop texting and pay attention to that bicyclist.
(18:38):
So all of a sudden, it's walking is no longer automatic.
But back to multitasking, what we're actually doing is switching
our attention rapidly. So when we're working on multiple tasks
and we think we're doing it at the same time,
(18:58):
our attention is actually switching among these different tasks and
we were We don't do that very well because that's
not how our brains are wired to work.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Yeah, I think I've done a bit of a self
experiment on that over a long period of time before
I realized it wasn't working for me. And quite often
it is in to podcasts, whilst I was doing a
less well what I considered a job that needed less attention.
That was perhaps I thought it was automatic, right, And
I'd often notice I hadn't caught anything if I was
(19:32):
concentrating on the work, hadn't caught anything of the podcast,
and I'd have to keep rewinding or just making it worse,
or I'd made an error on my data entry and
I'd have to fix that, so that what you know,
ends up regardless, ends up taking twice the time.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Yes, yeah, whereas.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
I'm completely different. I can't listen to a podcast and work.
I have to do one or the other. I can't.
I you know, clearly I can't do that. So true,
So have we worked out if we are multitasking and
we are going from one thing to another, it's less
productive than if we were just focusing on one thing.
(20:13):
I'm presuming we've worked that out.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
There are three reasons why it's less productive. So the
first reason is we make more errors. And we know
this from decades of studies in the laboratory that when
people are you know, they're given a task and they're
supposed to switch back and forth between them, they just
(20:38):
simply make more errors. Number two, it takes longer to
do any one task. So imagine that you were to
work on a task through to completion and then you
begin another task. Well, we would do pretty well if
that's how we worked, but that's not usually how people work.
(20:58):
They usually switch among these different tasks and then you
have to do redundant work, You get interference, you forget
where you are. It just doesn't work very well. It's
like having an internal whiteboard in your mind, and every
(21:22):
time you do a new task, you have to write
the information you need on your mind's whiteboard, right, and
so you're working on a task, you've got that information
written inside your mind, and then you suddenly switch, so
you have to erase that whiteboard and rape something new,
(21:43):
and then you switch again. And what we're doing when
we're switching so fast is we're writing and erasing and
writing and erasing, and it's just not very efficient.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
So if we take it outside of the workplace and
we're trying to have leash a time, because I know
I self sabotage even my own leisure time, if you
know what I mean, Like, why do we Franciski is
the example when we were talking before you came on
about reading a book and then thinking, oh, better, see
(22:15):
what's happening, and then we'll pick up your phone. Is
it the same thing, like why do we do that
to ourselves in the leisure time? What's driving that?
Speaker 3 (22:24):
It's habituation. We're habituated to keep switching our attention. And
I've been interviewing a number of people recently about their
tech us, and a lot of people have been reporting
that it's very hard for them to read a book.
(22:47):
They used to be able to read and spend a
long time with a book, and it's very very hard
for them. And I think it's that they're just habituated
to switching so much and that it's carrying over into
what they do off likee In trying to read a book.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
No, I can't run the pavement anymore without having music
in my ears. But that's not distraction. I just don't
want to hear my breath or my feet hitting their pavement.
That's good distraction.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
You're listening to the little things. And our guest on
the podcast today is Gloria Mark talking about our decreasing
attention spans and what's behind it and how we can
rEFInd our focus. We'll be back shortly. Okay, So we've
(23:42):
identified that this might all be sounding very familiar to
a lot of people and they're probably going, actually, that's
really this is really interesting. So what do we Where
do we start, Gloria when it comes to trying to
work on our attention span and you know, lengthen these
periods of time we're focused.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Yeah, So the first thing that we can do is
to be aware of these times when we're automatically switching.
So we're just not conscious of switching. So think about
when you have an urge to check the news, or
(24:23):
an urge to check social media or check an e
commerce site. A lot of those things we do are automatic.
We're just we do them automatically. We're not conscious of them.
Picking up your phone to swipe it open, right, It's
a habit that we've developed. And so the very first
(24:44):
step is to start to become aware of the automaticity
in our actions. And then what we want to do
is we want to make these automatic actions more conscious.
We want to be cond just when we're doing them.
So what I have done is I probe myself. And
(25:09):
I call this meta awareness, which means literally means being
aware of what you're doing as it's unfolding. And so
if I'm working and I suddenly have an urge to
check the news, and these days there's just a lot
of news going on, especially in my country, I will
(25:32):
probe myself, do I really need to check the news now?
So I have learned to become aware of when I'm
about to switch. And it takes practice, but you can
do it. And then I basically ask myself, do I
need to do this right now? Chances are no, really not,
(25:54):
And so then I can become more intentional in my actions. Okay,
I don't need to check the news right now, And
I can make a plant and I could say, Okay,
I am going to work for another twenty minutes, and
then I can reward myself and check the news. So
it's really about becoming more aware of your actions to
(26:20):
help yourself regulation in what you're doing when you're using tech.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
I've had quite an interesting experience this year, Gloria, and
I think this is one reason why maybe my attention
I've been able to work a little bit on my
attention span is And the listeners will just giggle because
I've mentioned this a few times, but I've started doing pottery,
and so maybe once or twice a week, I go
to a studio and for a couple of hours, I
just focus. I find I love it so so so much,
and so I find myself focusing on creating something. I'm
(26:48):
using my hands. I'm doing something completely different. I don't
have music in my ease, I have nothing. I just
focus on what I'm doing. And I think that's the
closest I've got into a state of flow in a
long time. And because in a way, because I've had
that experience, I've kind of noticed that I can hold
(27:09):
my attention span and other parts of my life longer,
for longer. But I'm going to be honest, I mean
I don't have that same sense of flow in other
parts of my life, like you know, sitting down to
work or something like that. It's quite a unique focus
or kind of focus, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Yeah, So it's wonderful that you're doing something like pottery,
and absolutely once you get into the practice of paying
attention to something, getting immersed in it, getting into a
flow state, it absolutely can benefit you in other aspects.
(27:50):
Now in terms of flow, you know, I've been studying
information workers knowledge workers for a long time. It's very
rare for them to get into a state of flow
in their typical work because the kind of work they
do is just not conducive for getting into flow. It's more,
(28:10):
you know, analytical kind of work. But artists, musicians, people
in sports, it's it's very conducive to get into flow.
My first career was being an artist, and so I
would get into flow regularly. I knew what it was
(28:32):
like to be in flow. When I went into psychology,
didn't happen very often. It's pretty rare. Doesn't mean that
there's anything wrong with it. It's a different kind of
reward that you feel right, you get fulfilled but in
a different way. It's not going to be a flow experience.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
I think occasionally when I'm running, a can get in
to flow where I don't notice the time passing and
i've and I go, wow, that was that was crazy
and you really look for that, but it's not doesn't
happen every time. So probably mindfulness is what I do.
And when I was doing that regularly, i'd have the
(29:17):
same thing as Francesca. I would I wouldn't notice other
parts of my life felt smooth. I have this sort
of thing on my pin to my desk that somebody
I was in Vancouver actually and somebody there was a
Buddhist on side of the road. He was handing them out,
and it just says works smoothly, lifetime piece, and I think,
(29:40):
as in peace, I think I need to put it
right between my two screens because I remember, this is
so beautiful. It's just such a nice, meditative sort of thought.
But I do feel like we've been invaded. And I
was just thinking about the automation, about the picking up
or responding even you know, even our watches tell us
(30:02):
that we've got a message. And I was thinking about
driving and how you know we're actually risking our lives
by being distracted. It's it's bonkers, it is, it is bonkers. Yeah,
what is?
Speaker 1 (30:17):
What would you define good attention span as.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
So in terms of a number that I can't I
can't give you a number because there's so much individual variation,
But I would say it should be long enough that
you should be able to accomplish what you feel you
need to accomplish. Forty seven seconds is too short. I
(30:49):
think spending an hour at a time is probably too long,
unless unless you're in a state of flow and you're
totally immersed, or you're reading a book and you're so
caught up in the story, then that's perfectly fine. But
it's really important for us to take breaks so we
(31:10):
you know, we shouldn't strive for just unbroken, long periods
of focus because that's not healthy either. And it's also
not how our brains are built, because we have limited
cognitive resources and they drain. They drain when we're switching
(31:32):
our attention, they drain when we're in an intense state
of focus. Not for flow, but you know, if you're
doing some kind of analysis, right, you can't have our
unbroken focus. So it's really important to take breaks and
let our minds replenishe.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
You mentioned it being healthy there, and I just want
to is there a connection between attention and strength or
a mood.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Absolutely? Yeah, So when they go hand in hand in
the sense that when you're stressed, it's very hard to
pay attention. It interferes with our ability to pay attention,
and so you know, there's we did a study where
(32:24):
we looked at different personality traits and there's one personality
trait which is called neuroticism, and that's that's a trait
where people tend to be stressful and they tend to
replay events over and over in their minds. So you
(32:45):
just had a talk with your colleague and it didn't
go well, and you keep replaying that in your mind.
That's what neurotics tend to do. And we find that
neurotics have shorter attention spans then the none neurotics, right,
because when you're replaying events in your mind, it interferes
(33:08):
with your ability to pay attention to the task at hand.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
I'm not sure how much you've gone into this, but
is there a point at which we need to regulate this?
If people are not able to we can all take
responsibility for our lack of attention and work on all
of these fantastic things that you've been sharing with us today.
Is there a point that we go we lay it
at the feet of some of the people who are
(33:36):
actively trying to distract us with their algorithms and everything else,
and say, you know, this is not good for humankind
as a in general, and it's terrible for productivity. I
can only imagine there are reasons to regulate for this.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
There are, and I'm an advocate for this kind of regulation,
but it's an uphill about and if we wait for that,
then we're really gonna be hurting ourselves. So I do
think that in the meantime we need to take action.
(34:12):
But I will tell you some positive types of regulation
that we're seeing. Some countries have right to disconnect laws,
like France has the ele comrie law, Ontario, Canada, I believe,
the Philippines if I'm not mistaken. I believe Belgium, possibly
(34:34):
Ireland if I recall correctly. These are laws which protect
workers who do not answer electronic communications after work hours.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Yeah, I think Australia has done it too.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Australia is good for good for Australia and it protects
them and it allows them to psychological disconnect from work
at the end of the day. And that's really important
because we need an unbroken period of time where we're
(35:12):
really disconnecting from work so that it helps protect against burnout. Right,
burnout is it is at a high so is chronic stress.
And so if people can have a period of time
where they're just not dealing with work, they're better able
(35:35):
to psychologically reconnect the next day. And what does that mean?
That means being more engaged and being more motivated in work.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Because you've got to wonder how much more we can take. Right,
We're kind of at a saturation level when it comes
to online content and our emails and apps and social
media and devices and things like that.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Yes, yeah, no, it's and it is really crazy, and
there's there are so many different sources of distractions and
there's always one more communication app that's being developed, So
it is it is really crazy. And you know, I
(36:22):
have a particular problem with slack. On the one hand,
I mean the aim of it is very is very
good because you can have direct messaging and answer queries
from your colleagues really fast. But what happens is you
(36:43):
end up getting a number of Slack channels, and you're
on twenty thirty sixty different Slack channels, and you're always
having to keep up and answer.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
I was talking about this at work the other day
and someone was said to be, Oh, no, I've got
a great ad, and I said, I'm not sure an
app is the best way to solve an attention issue.
But this little app had a character, Hank or someone,
and he'd knit you a pair of socks or something
so you didn't want to pick up. Its an animation,
and it would you would go, Okay, I'm gonna I'm
not gonna pick up my phone for thirty minutes, and
(37:18):
so you'd set that on Hank, and Hank would start
this little character would start knitting and everything, and if
you picked up that, it could detect your sort of
picking up. I think the phone and Hank would give
you this look, going, your socks are gonna unravel if
you kind of, you know, use your phone. But I thought, well,
this is I suppose that's one way of creating a
new habit. But I was kind of amused by the
(37:39):
fact that took an app to stop you picking up
your phone and look at a yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
Yeah, well, and it's also a distraction because you're thinking
about the socks and raveling.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
How many pairs of socks can I get? And then
then of course it works like an app. You get
tokens and then you can buy oh you applauding to
put on Hank's wall or something. I'm probably getting all
the names completely.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
I see that. To me, my time are on my
phone works adequately, Gloria. What about learning new skills? And
I'm going to go back to the pottery here, folks,
But if you learn new skills, can that help us
kind of you know, make our brain be a little
bit more focused.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
Absolutely. So. Our brains are producing new neurons all the
time neurogenesis, and some of those neurons survive and some
of them don't. That's that's natural. But we can help
those neurons survive, some of them by doing challenging activities.
(38:46):
And we know that when people take up learning a
new language, or learning to play an instrument, or doing
some mentally challenging activities like problems. So I think that
it can help these these neurons survive. So it can
help make our brains healthier, and we also know that
(39:09):
it seems to have promise for delaying dementia and cognitive impairment.
So it's really important for people to be challenging their minds.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Do we need to worry that that young people's brains
are because I know you know a little bit about neuroplasticity,
But do we need to worry that pathways are being
changed in young people's brains?
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Well, there's there are some people that worry about it,
and there is some some research that suggests that young
people's brains are being affected. There are some claims that
(40:04):
young people act as though they have dementia. They don't
have dementia, they don't, but their behavior might seem to
have certain similar characteristics as people with dementia. But you know,
it's hard to know. This is a huge experiment that
(40:24):
we're in the digital age, and you know, is what's
going to happen in twenty five years with people's minds.
That's part of this experiment that we're going to see.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
It's quite a terrifying experiment. Flora, Yes, maybe we could
sum up if you wouldn't mind, would you be able
to just remind us of the little things that we
can do to increase our focus and attention.
Speaker 3 (40:54):
Yes, so let me go back to this idea of
practicing meta awareness is learning to become aware of when
you're distracted, when you're doing these automatic habits, and probing
yourself to ask yourself if is it necessary to do that,
or if you're already let's say, on social media, to
(41:17):
recognize that, hey, I've been there for some time, am
I getting value? And if not leave, it's time to leave.
We can also practice what's called forethought, which is if
you're a person who's tempted by say social media, or
you're a news junkie, imagine your day at the end
(41:42):
of the day and have a visualization of where you
want to be, where you see yourself at the end
of the day, and how you want to feel. You know,
what is your goal. My goal would be I want
to be rewarded. I want to be fulfilled. I want
to see myself on the couch reading, you know, being
(42:04):
with my family. The last thing I want to do
is still working on that report and it's ten o'clock
at night. So having an image of how you see
yourself at the end of the day can be very
powerful to help keep keep you on track. Another thing
we talked about taking breaks very important, taking breaks to
(42:27):
stay replenished. If you can take a break outside in nature,
that's the absolute best kind of break that we can take,
because being in nature can really replenish us. It's also
important to consider that our attention it waxes and wanes
(42:51):
throughout the day, and this goes along with this idea
that we have limited cognitive resources. Sometimes we have a lot,
sometimes they're drained. But every person has their own personal
rhythm of these peaks and valleys of attention, and you
can get to learn when your peaks are, and probably
(43:14):
you have a pretty good idea. Most people in our
studies tend to have a peak mid morning and then
another peak mid afternoon, but it varies if you're an
early type. Your chronotype is an early type, or if
your chronotype is a late type, your peaks and valleys
(43:35):
will be a little bit different. But once you identify
when your peaks and valleys are, you can plan to
do those tasks that require the hardest work and the
most creativity when your attention is at its peak. So
for your peak times, you know, if I'm writing something,
(43:56):
I'm going to make sure i'm writing. Usually it's faring
around nine o'clock because that's when my peak time starts,
and then I go into this valley, which is probably
around close to lunchtime, and then that's the time to
take a break and replenish. And the last thing you
(44:18):
want to do is do email in your peak time.
Don't want to do that in your peak time. You
want to save it for hard work.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
That's fantastic advice.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
That's really good advice. Quite I was just sitting here
thinking about my peaks and my valleys, and when you
made that mention there about not doing your emails and
your peakers, it's like, of course, you're just wasting all
this really valuable time where it's got to go to
the kind of the maybe the most challenging task of
the day.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Or yeah, yeah. I used to live by that old
adage about eating the frog. If somebody told you at
some point of the day, you've got to eat a frog,
why would you not? Why would you sit around all
day thinking about eating the frog. You just get up
and eat the frog and then it's done. That's that's
what I do. My most challenging to ask. What I
(45:04):
love this is what.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
I love doing a podcast with Louise Gloria. I never
know what she's going to say next. I've never had
a New Zealand, I've never eaten a frog. No, I
can't never heard this.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Oh well I'll source it. It's definitely a real thing.
I mean, nobody's eating frogs.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Gloria, thank you so much for your time I think
you've given us. You know, we're all just trying to
get to the end of the year. You know, the
everyone gets a bit tired at this point of the
year and the stress and the burnout is building. So
it's a really good time just to stop and rethink
our day a little bit. So really appreciate all your tips.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
We thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
So let me just explain that the frog thing. I'm
sure other listeners have heard of this.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
I'm sure they have, along with the Greasy Pancake and
the men the other wonderful littless you've given us this,
our lovely producer has found.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
The original credit was Mark Twain. The concept is based
on eat a live frog first thing in the morning,
nothing worse will happen for the rest of the day.
And now that's but antiquated, then it was adapted to
be a productivity thing if you basically saying, if you
do your hardest thing first, then rested. So that makes
aug also like, sure, you could choose to eat the
(46:28):
frog at the end of the day, franchiesca, but all
you're going to think about is even the frog, and
you're not gonna get anything else done.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
Thank you for that explanation, because I was just wondering
why we were eating frogs in the first place.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Now one's a eating frogs.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
Look.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
Gloria's book is Attention Span if you would like to
read more, she also has a sub stack, the Future
of Attention. She talks a lot about attention in our
brains and technology and all sorts of things. So there's
just a few places where you can find out more
from Gloria, and.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Then you have it cut. Francisca, we have pretty much
come to the end of season five Things.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Crazy Crazy would have been your highlights?
Speaker 2 (47:04):
Well, that was a pretty good one. That could be
quite life changing. I have enjoyed the season very very much,
and I think from everything from Michico talking about fashion.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Oh I know, she wasn't she loving? She was so
nervous about coming and doing that podcast, and she was fabulous.
She was gorgeous and so non judgmental, and that's sort
of I think we do choose good guests. Yeah, I know,
And didn't you make you just want to put out
a bit of color and try something different and no,
really positive loved it.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
So that was a good one. Kylie, A little bit
like today's one. Gave me a few sort of little
tricks I can play oh myself if you like, or
little fat little hacks I can do for myself.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
I love Kylie Wilson just because I will never be
an elite athlete, but I kind of I'm quite fascinated
by what makes them take. So I just loved the
sports chat. I just like hearing, yeah, the conversations out
sort of the tips and techniques that leaked athletes use.
I loved doctor Caroline Girvich and that was our episode
(48:07):
that we did kind of kind of on middle aged
rage and anger and the impact that our hormones have
on our brains. And what I loved about it was
women were saying to us. I got my partner or
my husband to listen to it, and they just came
back to me and they went oh, okay, I get it,
you know, like, and that made me feel like, you know,
it was worth coming to work.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
Yeah, I got that too.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
It was like, I am so pleased it was helpful.
I'm so pleased, you know, you're not out there on
your own. And yes, it is very common and normal,
and I'm glad now that other people around you, who
are probably wondering who the hell you are, understand why
it's happening.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
That's right, I mean there is a very validous, evidence
based reason.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
Yeah, very much. I still have to go back to
our very first guest this year. If I take a
look at the whole year, like and if you look
at the advice we've been given, what you've taken might
have worked for you, And Lara Bryden is still probably
a bit of a game changer for me with the
metabolism reset and just getting my head around and we
spoke about this throughout the year with different things with
alcohol and things like that, just getting my head around
(49:08):
the just cutting back on those ultra processed foods, cutting
back on the alcohol and the sugar and just eating
well and the difference it's made. And I'm you know, like,
I'm probably the slowest weight loser ever. But I have
not been sick this year. My immune system has been
so much better. My knees no longer randomly swell, the
(49:32):
inflammation is down.
Speaker 3 (49:34):
You know.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
I've seen all these benefits just from you know, sort
of reducing information in my body and just looking after
myself a little bit better. And so that's been That
was excellent advice for me this year.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Yeah, I need to I need to look at that again.
Obviously it's been a funny year.
Speaker 3 (49:50):
You know.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
I chose that silly word at the beginning of the year,
and what did you choose? Strong?
Speaker 3 (49:54):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (49:54):
Strong, And it's like it's like it's like the universe said, okay, lou,
let's just check a few things at you. And especially
in the last few weeks, just been a bit off.
So I will listen to Lara again. Actually, and I
did all of the books, so I will start start
to focus.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
Then. I'd just like to thank all our guests on
season five this year, in particular that I just like
to say especial thank you to doctor Lucy Hohne, who
shared such a personal story with us about dementia, and
also Lorna Riley, who also shared a really personal story,
but gave us so much positivity when it comes to
life after divorce.
Speaker 2 (50:32):
Yep. And I got a lot from talking to Justin
Colson as well, just to top up on some of
that parenting stuff and some really fascinating insights that probably
only a psychologist with a pH d would actually know.
Speaker 1 (50:45):
How's your emergency fund coming along?
Speaker 2 (50:47):
It was coming great. You did tell me not to
not to jinx it, and you know, tell you that
I have started an emergency fund and then we had
an emergency. Yeah, no, it's bloody great.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
Thanks very much, but a really big thank you to
you too for joining us on this season of the
Little Things. We hope you share this podcast with the
women and men in your lifet week and all well
after today. Regain some focus at some point in our
day in one of those valleys or peaks.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
Somewhere in there, somewhere in there, and I think we
are going to be back next year, aren't we. Friendships,
We sure can look forward to more of us, well,
not more of us, just the two of us. Still,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
There might be more of me after summer, to be
honest with you, quite possibly.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio. Or wherever you
get your podcasts, and for more episodes from us on
other topics here to MZ herald dot co dot MZED
Speaker 1 (51:45):
And we will definitely catch you next year on the
Little Things
Hi, I'm Louise Aria and I'm Francesca Rudgin and welcome
to our final episode for season five at our New
Zealand Herald podcast, The Little Things.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Thanks for joining us in this podcast. We sit down
with the experts in their fields to unpack the little
things that can help us navigate life at our agent
stage and really at any agent stage, where he had
to cut through the overload of information and get to
the nitty gritty other things that impact us every day.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
So at the beginning of the year, Louise, I don't
know if you remember, but we were talking about what
we'd love to get out of this podcast and things
to work on throughout the year, and I said to you,
I made a comment about my shitty attention span. Do
you remember this? Like it had been summer, and I
was really excited. I had this pile of books to
read and I was really looking forward to just tearing
into them. And I'd pick up a book and then
(00:45):
five minutes later I'd be picking up my phone going, Oh,
what's happened in the world, what's the news, which was
absolutely ridiculous because it's Christmas and there is no news,
nothing happens and it didn't matter how many days I
did this and there was still no news. I just
found myself completely distracted, so easily distracted. And I was
quite surprised by this.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
And it's not like you, because you love a book.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I know that's the thing. That's why it took me
by That's what took me by surprise. Nobody's surprised about
my lack of attention span. Oh, I have a lack
of attention span in other areas of my life that
they were already obvious. I think that's probably why it's Yeah,
I don't hasn't improved.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
How is it now? You know?
Speaker 1 (01:21):
It has improved immensely, But that's because but I had
to do a bit of work on it, like I
had to, and mostly it's improved around my work day,
Like I've actually gone, I'm going to sit and I'm
going to get this task completed before I look at
emails and before I pick up my phone and respond
to texts, and before I'm distracted by other people needing
other things from me. So I actually had to put
a few boundaries and sort of just put some structure
(01:43):
around my work, and actually I am getting it all
done a lot faster, and I really enjoyed a lot
of my work is writing, whether it's podcasts or film
reviews and things like that, and I love getting into
the flow of it. And I was noticing that every
time I was getting distracted by something else or someone
needing something else, I'd just kind of I'd stop and
I'd get out of that flow. So it's yeah, no,
it's that's worked well, but I still struggle with the book.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Maybe you should try and write one.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
God, no, you've got a pretty good attention span, though.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Oh my god, it's just no mine has. So you've
improved through the year. Mine has actually gotten the worse.
When I say improved, it's just well, I mean if
I do things like set in my phone for forty
five minutes, right, put a thing on timer forty five minutes,
or do a block of work if I have one task.
But I think the difference is I've got more, As
(02:33):
you know, I used to work on one project at
a time. Now I'm working on that's my problem. I've
got a whole lot of different jobs. Yeah, and that's
where it all disappears. You give something some attention for
a little while, and then somebody needs you for something
on something else, or and it might be FTU wise
divided into days that I get paid by which project,
but it's not the same in my head, perhaps I
(02:53):
should do it that way, but it doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
And then I work from home, so I'm distracted by
I'll just quickly do that laundry. Oh, what's in the pantry?
What's in the fridge that I don't know? The fridge
in the pantry are hugely distracting.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
I'm so much worse if I work from home. Frenchhyse
Spirt's ridiculous. And again I've got something that just got
a deadline, and I'm fine on a deadline. But you
know where I noticed? I joined a gym, and it
was the university gym, which is stunning if you get
a chance to see, it's beautiful. But it's full of
really young people, which was fine. I could have stayed there,
but it just ended up taking up too much time
(03:26):
in my day. But you know how exercises changed, right,
so now we're lifting heavier, fewer sets and fewer reps.
But between the reps, between sets, you're supposed to have
a two minute rest, right, according to my son, Strengthen
and gndising coach, Mum, you need that two minutes. You
need to be readio. Now, why can't I just sit
(03:48):
or stand up and eat someone else use a machine
or something and just steering to know for a couple
of minutes. I can't do it.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
And you're always on your phone or something.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Everybody is, everybody is you just shuffle to the end
of the ever read is it your machine you're on
and don't make eye contact no matter what, and just
look at your phone until that time is up and
then you go back to your exercise. It's like, I
don't know, I'm a self interrupter. I'm my own worst
enemy and I'm over it and I want to be
free of it.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Lets you're honest about it. We're own own worst enemies.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
So we're at that point of the year, aren't we that.
You know a lot of people are feeling quite tired.
The year is winding down, and yet we feel like
we're winding up because we've just realized it's nearly the
end of the year and there's ape too. The pressure
is on to complete work projects, take off, end of
your events before the beautiful summer holidays. We hope it
seemed like a good time to talk about focus and
(04:38):
our attention spans and help us get to the end
of the year in one piece.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yeah So, back in twenty twenty three, I covered this
topic on newstalk Z'B with a fabulous academic and author,
Gloria Mark. Gloria is a Chancellor's Professor of Informatics at
the University of California. She has a PhD in psychology
and studies the impact of digital media on our lives.
Her researchocuses on digital devices and the role they play
(05:02):
in multitasking, interruptions, and our mood. Gloria has written a book.
It's called Attention Span, Finding Focus for Fulfilling Life. And
Gloria Mark is with us now, welcome, Good to have
you with us.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
It's very nice to be here.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So, Gloria, I mean, before you join us, Francisca and
I we're just talking about our oscillating attention spans, will
be the most polite way of putting it. Mine seems
to have gotten worse. Francisca is maybe a tiny little
bit better from having worked on it a bit. How
have our lives changed in the modern digital area era?
And is that the driver for our lack of attention.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
I would say it, yet it's because you mentioned I've
been studying attention for a long time. I've been empirically
tracking attention, and over a twenty year period, our attention
spans on screens declined. Back around twenty two thousand and four,
(05:59):
the hour averaged about two and a half minutes on
a screen before people switched to something else, and starting
from around twenty sixteen, they were averaging forty seven seconds.
And these studies have been repeated multiple times, so our
attention spans have declined.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Forty seven seconds, not even a minute. We can't even
give something a minute now.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Now that's the average, but if you look at the median,
the midpoint of all the data, it's worse. It's forty seconds.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Can you just put that in perspective? If I'm just
imagining myself sitting at my desk with my screen screens
multiple because I can't just say one screen anymore in
front of me. Do you mean I'm looking? So just
take me, make me average most people do. I'm staring
at my screen for forty seven seconds, and I want
I get a thing on my phone so I look
(06:56):
at it. I'm just trying to make this relatable.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Yeah, so you suddenly switch look at your phone, then
you go back, you're trying to read an article. Maybe
you can pay attention for two or three minutes, but
then all of a sudden, you've got texting, You check
your email, you decided you want to check news, and
so you have this flurry of screen changes and then
(07:21):
maybe you go back, you read it, maybe spend another
couple of minutes on the article. So it's you know,
it varies, there's variability, but we're talking about the average,
and again we talk about the midpoint. Right. Half the
data means is that our attention spans are longer than
(07:43):
forty seconds, but half the data shows that our attention
spans are shorter than forty seconds.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
So if you take those these decades that you've been
sort of tracking our screen use in things, Gloria, are
you surprised by these results and what you see today
or did you very much anticipate that this is the
way things were going to go.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
I was surprised. I was initially surprised when I first
started tracking attention because when I looked at all of
our activities, not just paying attention to a screen, but
how long people had interactions in the workplace, and how
often they read documents. That was every three minutes that
(08:27):
people were switching activities, and if we just looked at attention,
that was two and a half minutes. That surprised me.
I thought it was going to be like ten minutes.
So having had that first shock, I guess you know,
I was less surprised to see that they had diminished.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Is it a respective of age?
Speaker 3 (08:53):
So yes, In the workplace, most of our workers were
between twenty five and forty five or twenty five and fifty,
we didn't see any age differences. And the average attention
span of young people in college was forty eight seconds,
so there really wasn't any difference there.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Gloria, how do you track attention?
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Yeah, so we use a software that can track when
someone clicks on a window to bring it in the forefront. Now,
this is a proxy of where we're paying attention. It's
not perfect, but it's it's very good, and the assumption
is that if a window is in the forefront, that
(09:43):
you're paying attention. Right. It's not perfect, of course, but
it does give us a sense of screen changes. So
every time someone clicks to bring some other window to
the forefront. Then you know, that's what we capture.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Okay, So if we we can either blame ourselves and
and you know, just tell ourselves we're bad, we're useless,
well plus what's wrong with us? Or we can really
and I'm sure we've done this, figure out what it
is that's driving this change and attention span. It can't
be our faultually.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
No, it's it's not. I mean, we were not innocent,
to be honest. But there are a lot of factors
going on. So there are algorithms and as you know,
every time we go on the web, we click on
things that we like, we visit sites, and all of
(10:45):
our web activity is captured and profiles of our interests
are created. And these profiles then are what tech companies use,
ad remarketing companies use to gear information to us. And
so of course, if it's something you're interested in, it's
(11:06):
it's hard to resist. So, and algorithms are really quite
sophisticated and powerful in capturing attention. And of course they
some of them appealed to very basic emotions like surprise
and excitement and anger, and it's it's very hard to
(11:27):
not be attracted to information that incites these kinds of emotions.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
So there's that, because sorry, I'm just thinking. An example
of that would be, you know, we get our news
online now, right, So I go to open my usual
source of news from a no online newspaper, and before
I know it, I'm looking at my favorite braind of
running shoe and then I'm saying, oh, is it on sale?
Could I get it even cheaper? And I've gone down
(11:54):
that yeah, at least than forty seconds.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
In my book, I write about a scenario about how
I'm being tracked by boots because what happened to me
once was I looked at a pair of boots and
you know, I don't know, these are interesting? But then
I clicked away, and every time I went to a website,
an image of those boots would appear. They were taunting me,
(12:23):
you know they would, you know they would, yeah, And
you know it was it was hard to to not
pay attention to them. The only way out would be
to purchase those boots.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
So yes, but I quite like the expression you use
being tracked by, because you do feel like you're being
a bit stalked sometimes. I mean, I wonder if that's
quite a good way to think about it, just to
keep your head in the right place. So you mentioned
the algorithms because you've got we've got this personal technology
which probably on its own could be really useful and
(13:04):
valuable in our lives. But then we're we've added things
to it. And I'm presuming it's the adit the addition
of the things like algorithms, and that that is the
reason for this lack a focus.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
But also there there are things that are just part
of our humanity that we can't avoid. For example, social dynamics.
We're social creatures and you know in real life we're
attracted to other people. We have pure pressure. There's we
(13:38):
deal in social capital. So someone does a favor to you,
you want to do a favor back. So there's a
number of these kinds of social dynamics that influence us
when we're online. So for example, why why do we
check email? Well, you might get that really important message
(14:01):
and then but you also want to answer it because
maybe you want that person to be able to do
a favor for you someday and answer your email. We
answer text messages because we want to maintain social capital,
so and slack the same kind of thing. So there
are all kinds of social dynamics that are just wrapped
(14:25):
up into how we use our tech.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
How long if we have been distracted, how long do
we know how long it takes for us to get
back on task?
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Yeah, so we had measured this in terms of projects,
so I have to I have to unwrap this. So
we switch our attention every forty seven seconds. But some
of that attention switching is within the same project. So
(14:58):
if I'm writing a I might be switching continually, but
it's all about the same paper, so it's the same topic.
And we switch projects about every eleven minutes or so.
But when we switch out of a project, then it
takes about twenty three and a half minutes to be
(15:20):
able to resume work in that interrupted project.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
And in case again I need a visual, So we're
not sitting there for twenty three minutes going and then
at twenty three minutes where we are just not effective,
we're not productive on that task. Is that what it is?
Speaker 3 (15:38):
What we're actually doing is we're switching out of one
project into another project. We work on that and then
we switch into another one, and then this is like
the pattern of the data. Then we start to switch
again into another one, So we go back to the
first one.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Right, so you're doing eleven minutes here, eleven minutes there,
eleven minutes there.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Okay, exactly right, exactly So by the time you resume
that interrupted work, the original project, your mind has been elsewhere,
and then elsewhere again, and then again, and then you
go back. So it's very hard to reconstruct the work
(16:21):
that you had originally been doing.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
What do we do about that, Gloria? It seems to
me just understanding or maybe just being a little bit
more aware when we sit down at our desks tomorrow
or today of how we're working is probably the first step.
In order to do anything about our attention. You probably
have to kind of be a little bit honest about
you to yourself with your own attention.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Yeah, of course we do. We have to be aware
of the problem, the fact that we have a hard
time paying attention, the fact that there are so many distractions.
So absolutely that's the first step.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
It's funny, isn't it, Because I don't know the physiological
stuff around that don't mean things, but we think we're
getting We think that that's quite fun right, going from
project to project or going oh, that looks more and
that's shinier. I'll have a look at that. I'll have
a look at that. But actually, what Francesca is talking
about is learning yourself and adapting and maybe having a
strategy around it is actually much more self soothing than
(17:26):
the sort of frenetic changing around all the time. Would
that be right?
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
So you know, people think that it helps our performance
to be able to multitask, right, People think, wow, I'm
a great multitasker. I can get so much done. But
the reality is that it actually harms our performance. But
(17:53):
let me first explain that multitasking doesn't mean doing two
things exactly at the same time, right. Humans are not
wired to be able to do that. Our brains just
don't work that way unless one of those things is automatic.
So you can walk and text at the same time.
(18:16):
Because walking is automatic, we're not thinking about it, we're
thinking about texting. But as soon as you know, I'm
in New York City and we have crazy bicyclists, and
as soon as a bicyclist tries to grind me over,
I will stop texting and pay attention to that bicyclist.
(18:38):
So all of a sudden, it's walking is no longer automatic.
But back to multitasking, what we're actually doing is switching
our attention rapidly. So when we're working on multiple tasks
and we think we're doing it at the same time,
(18:58):
our attention is actually switching among these different tasks and
we were We don't do that very well because that's
not how our brains are wired to work.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Yeah, I think I've done a bit of a self
experiment on that over a long period of time before
I realized it wasn't working for me. And quite often
it is in to podcasts, whilst I was doing a
less well what I considered a job that needed less attention.
That was perhaps I thought it was automatic, right, And
I'd often notice I hadn't caught anything if I was
(19:32):
concentrating on the work, hadn't caught anything of the podcast,
and I'd have to keep rewinding or just making it worse,
or I'd made an error on my data entry and
I'd have to fix that, so that what you know,
ends up regardless, ends up taking twice the time.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Yes, yeah, whereas.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
I'm completely different. I can't listen to a podcast and work.
I have to do one or the other. I can't.
I you know, clearly I can't do that. So true,
So have we worked out if we are multitasking and
we are going from one thing to another, it's less
productive than if we were just focusing on one thing.
(20:13):
I'm presuming we've worked that out.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
There are three reasons why it's less productive. So the
first reason is we make more errors. And we know
this from decades of studies in the laboratory that when
people are you know, they're given a task and they're
supposed to switch back and forth between them, they just
(20:38):
simply make more errors. Number two, it takes longer to
do any one task. So imagine that you were to
work on a task through to completion and then you
begin another task. Well, we would do pretty well if
that's how we worked, but that's not usually how people work.
(20:58):
They usually switch among these different tasks and then you
have to do redundant work, You get interference, you forget
where you are. It just doesn't work very well. It's
like having an internal whiteboard in your mind, and every
(21:22):
time you do a new task, you have to write
the information you need on your mind's whiteboard, right, and
so you're working on a task, you've got that information
written inside your mind, and then you suddenly switch, so
you have to erase that whiteboard and rape something new,
(21:43):
and then you switch again. And what we're doing when
we're switching so fast is we're writing and erasing and
writing and erasing, and it's just not very efficient.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
So if we take it outside of the workplace and
we're trying to have leash a time, because I know
I self sabotage even my own leisure time, if you
know what I mean, Like, why do we Franciski is
the example when we were talking before you came on
about reading a book and then thinking, oh, better, see
(22:15):
what's happening, and then we'll pick up your phone. Is
it the same thing, like why do we do that
to ourselves in the leisure time? What's driving that?
Speaker 3 (22:24):
It's habituation. We're habituated to keep switching our attention. And
I've been interviewing a number of people recently about their
tech us, and a lot of people have been reporting
that it's very hard for them to read a book.
(22:47):
They used to be able to read and spend a
long time with a book, and it's very very hard
for them. And I think it's that they're just habituated
to switching so much and that it's carrying over into
what they do off likee In trying to read a book.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
No, I can't run the pavement anymore without having music
in my ears. But that's not distraction. I just don't
want to hear my breath or my feet hitting their pavement.
That's good distraction.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
You're listening to the little things. And our guest on
the podcast today is Gloria Mark talking about our decreasing
attention spans and what's behind it and how we can
rEFInd our focus. We'll be back shortly. Okay, So we've
(23:42):
identified that this might all be sounding very familiar to
a lot of people and they're probably going, actually, that's
really this is really interesting. So what do we Where
do we start, Gloria when it comes to trying to
work on our attention span and you know, lengthen these
periods of time we're focused.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Yeah, So the first thing that we can do is
to be aware of these times when we're automatically switching.
So we're just not conscious of switching. So think about
when you have an urge to check the news, or
(24:23):
an urge to check social media or check an e
commerce site. A lot of those things we do are automatic.
We're just we do them automatically. We're not conscious of them.
Picking up your phone to swipe it open, right, It's
a habit that we've developed. And so the very first
(24:44):
step is to start to become aware of the automaticity
in our actions. And then what we want to do
is we want to make these automatic actions more conscious.
We want to be cond just when we're doing them.
So what I have done is I probe myself. And
(25:09):
I call this meta awareness, which means literally means being
aware of what you're doing as it's unfolding. And so
if I'm working and I suddenly have an urge to
check the news, and these days there's just a lot
of news going on, especially in my country, I will
(25:32):
probe myself, do I really need to check the news now?
So I have learned to become aware of when I'm
about to switch. And it takes practice, but you can
do it. And then I basically ask myself, do I
need to do this right now? Chances are no, really not,
(25:54):
And so then I can become more intentional in my actions. Okay,
I don't need to check the news right now, And
I can make a plant and I could say, Okay,
I am going to work for another twenty minutes, and
then I can reward myself and check the news. So
it's really about becoming more aware of your actions to
(26:20):
help yourself regulation in what you're doing when you're using tech.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
I've had quite an interesting experience this year, Gloria, and
I think this is one reason why maybe my attention
I've been able to work a little bit on my
attention span is And the listeners will just giggle because
I've mentioned this a few times, but I've started doing pottery,
and so maybe once or twice a week, I go
to a studio and for a couple of hours, I
just focus. I find I love it so so so much,
and so I find myself focusing on creating something. I'm
(26:48):
using my hands. I'm doing something completely different. I don't
have music in my ease, I have nothing. I just
focus on what I'm doing. And I think that's the
closest I've got into a state of flow in a
long time. And because in a way, because I've had
that experience, I've kind of noticed that I can hold
(27:09):
my attention span and other parts of my life longer,
for longer. But I'm going to be honest, I mean
I don't have that same sense of flow in other
parts of my life, like you know, sitting down to
work or something like that. It's quite a unique focus
or kind of focus, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Yeah, So it's wonderful that you're doing something like pottery,
and absolutely once you get into the practice of paying
attention to something, getting immersed in it, getting into a
flow state, it absolutely can benefit you in other aspects.
(27:50):
Now in terms of flow, you know, I've been studying
information workers knowledge workers for a long time. It's very
rare for them to get into a state of flow
in their typical work because the kind of work they
do is just not conducive for getting into flow. It's more,
(28:10):
you know, analytical kind of work. But artists, musicians, people
in sports, it's it's very conducive to get into flow.
My first career was being an artist, and so I
would get into flow regularly. I knew what it was
(28:32):
like to be in flow. When I went into psychology,
didn't happen very often. It's pretty rare. Doesn't mean that
there's anything wrong with it. It's a different kind of
reward that you feel right, you get fulfilled but in
a different way. It's not going to be a flow experience.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
I think occasionally when I'm running, a can get in
to flow where I don't notice the time passing and
i've and I go, wow, that was that was crazy
and you really look for that, but it's not doesn't
happen every time. So probably mindfulness is what I do.
And when I was doing that regularly, i'd have the
(29:17):
same thing as Francesca. I would I wouldn't notice other
parts of my life felt smooth. I have this sort
of thing on my pin to my desk that somebody
I was in Vancouver actually and somebody there was a
Buddhist on side of the road. He was handing them out,
and it just says works smoothly, lifetime piece, and I think,
(29:40):
as in peace, I think I need to put it
right between my two screens because I remember, this is
so beautiful. It's just such a nice, meditative sort of thought.
But I do feel like we've been invaded. And I
was just thinking about the automation, about the picking up
or responding even you know, even our watches tell us
(30:02):
that we've got a message. And I was thinking about
driving and how you know we're actually risking our lives
by being distracted. It's it's bonkers, it is, it is bonkers. Yeah,
what is?
Speaker 1 (30:17):
What would you define good attention span as.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
So in terms of a number that I can't I
can't give you a number because there's so much individual variation,
But I would say it should be long enough that
you should be able to accomplish what you feel you
need to accomplish. Forty seven seconds is too short. I
(30:49):
think spending an hour at a time is probably too long,
unless unless you're in a state of flow and you're
totally immersed, or you're reading a book and you're so
caught up in the story, then that's perfectly fine. But
it's really important for us to take breaks so we
(31:10):
you know, we shouldn't strive for just unbroken, long periods
of focus because that's not healthy either. And it's also
not how our brains are built, because we have limited
cognitive resources and they drain. They drain when we're switching
(31:32):
our attention, they drain when we're in an intense state
of focus. Not for flow, but you know, if you're
doing some kind of analysis, right, you can't have our
unbroken focus. So it's really important to take breaks and
let our minds replenishe.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
You mentioned it being healthy there, and I just want
to is there a connection between attention and strength or
a mood.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Absolutely? Yeah, So when they go hand in hand in
the sense that when you're stressed, it's very hard to
pay attention. It interferes with our ability to pay attention,
and so you know, there's we did a study where
(32:24):
we looked at different personality traits and there's one personality
trait which is called neuroticism, and that's that's a trait
where people tend to be stressful and they tend to
replay events over and over in their minds. So you
(32:45):
just had a talk with your colleague and it didn't
go well, and you keep replaying that in your mind.
That's what neurotics tend to do. And we find that
neurotics have shorter attention spans then the none neurotics, right,
because when you're replaying events in your mind, it interferes
(33:08):
with your ability to pay attention to the task at hand.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
I'm not sure how much you've gone into this, but
is there a point at which we need to regulate this?
If people are not able to we can all take
responsibility for our lack of attention and work on all
of these fantastic things that you've been sharing with us today.
Is there a point that we go we lay it
at the feet of some of the people who are
(33:36):
actively trying to distract us with their algorithms and everything else,
and say, you know, this is not good for humankind
as a in general, and it's terrible for productivity. I
can only imagine there are reasons to regulate for this.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
There are, and I'm an advocate for this kind of regulation,
but it's an uphill about and if we wait for that,
then we're really gonna be hurting ourselves. So I do
think that in the meantime we need to take action.
(34:12):
But I will tell you some positive types of regulation
that we're seeing. Some countries have right to disconnect laws,
like France has the ele comrie law, Ontario, Canada, I believe,
the Philippines if I'm not mistaken. I believe Belgium, possibly
(34:34):
Ireland if I recall correctly. These are laws which protect
workers who do not answer electronic communications after work hours.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Yeah, I think Australia has done it too.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Australia is good for good for Australia and it protects
them and it allows them to psychological disconnect from work
at the end of the day. And that's really important
because we need an unbroken period of time where we're
(35:12):
really disconnecting from work so that it helps protect against burnout. Right,
burnout is it is at a high so is chronic stress.
And so if people can have a period of time
where they're just not dealing with work, they're better able
(35:35):
to psychologically reconnect the next day. And what does that mean?
That means being more engaged and being more motivated in work.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Because you've got to wonder how much more we can take. Right,
We're kind of at a saturation level when it comes
to online content and our emails and apps and social
media and devices and things like that.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Yes, yeah, no, it's and it is really crazy, and
there's there are so many different sources of distractions and
there's always one more communication app that's being developed, So
it is it is really crazy. And you know, I
(36:22):
have a particular problem with slack. On the one hand,
I mean the aim of it is very is very
good because you can have direct messaging and answer queries
from your colleagues really fast. But what happens is you
(36:43):
end up getting a number of Slack channels, and you're
on twenty thirty sixty different Slack channels, and you're always
having to keep up and answer.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
I was talking about this at work the other day
and someone was said to be, Oh, no, I've got
a great ad, and I said, I'm not sure an
app is the best way to solve an attention issue.
But this little app had a character, Hank or someone,
and he'd knit you a pair of socks or something
so you didn't want to pick up. Its an animation,
and it would you would go, Okay, I'm gonna I'm
not gonna pick up my phone for thirty minutes, and
(37:18):
so you'd set that on Hank, and Hank would start
this little character would start knitting and everything, and if
you picked up that, it could detect your sort of
picking up. I think the phone and Hank would give
you this look, going, your socks are gonna unravel if
you kind of, you know, use your phone. But I thought, well,
this is I suppose that's one way of creating a
new habit. But I was kind of amused by the
(37:39):
fact that took an app to stop you picking up
your phone and look at a yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
Yeah, well, and it's also a distraction because you're thinking
about the socks and raveling.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
How many pairs of socks can I get? And then
then of course it works like an app. You get
tokens and then you can buy oh you applauding to
put on Hank's wall or something. I'm probably getting all
the names completely.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
I see that. To me, my time are on my
phone works adequately, Gloria. What about learning new skills? And
I'm going to go back to the pottery here, folks,
But if you learn new skills, can that help us
kind of you know, make our brain be a little
bit more focused.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
Absolutely. So. Our brains are producing new neurons all the
time neurogenesis, and some of those neurons survive and some
of them don't. That's that's natural. But we can help
those neurons survive, some of them by doing challenging activities.
(38:46):
And we know that when people take up learning a
new language, or learning to play an instrument, or doing
some mentally challenging activities like problems. So I think that
it can help these these neurons survive. So it can
help make our brains healthier, and we also know that
(39:09):
it seems to have promise for delaying dementia and cognitive impairment.
So it's really important for people to be challenging their minds.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Do we need to worry that that young people's brains
are because I know you know a little bit about neuroplasticity,
But do we need to worry that pathways are being
changed in young people's brains?
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Well, there's there are some people that worry about it,
and there is some some research that suggests that young
people's brains are being affected. There are some claims that
(40:04):
young people act as though they have dementia. They don't
have dementia, they don't, but their behavior might seem to
have certain similar characteristics as people with dementia. But you know,
it's hard to know. This is a huge experiment that
(40:24):
we're in the digital age, and you know, is what's
going to happen in twenty five years with people's minds.
That's part of this experiment that we're going to see.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
It's quite a terrifying experiment. Flora, Yes, maybe we could
sum up if you wouldn't mind, would you be able
to just remind us of the little things that we
can do to increase our focus and attention.
Speaker 3 (40:54):
Yes, so let me go back to this idea of
practicing meta awareness is learning to become aware of when
you're distracted, when you're doing these automatic habits, and probing
yourself to ask yourself if is it necessary to do that,
or if you're already let's say, on social media, to
(41:17):
recognize that, hey, I've been there for some time, am
I getting value? And if not leave, it's time to leave.
We can also practice what's called forethought, which is if
you're a person who's tempted by say social media, or
you're a news junkie, imagine your day at the end
(41:42):
of the day and have a visualization of where you
want to be, where you see yourself at the end
of the day, and how you want to feel. You know,
what is your goal. My goal would be I want
to be rewarded. I want to be fulfilled. I want
to see myself on the couch reading, you know, being
(42:04):
with my family. The last thing I want to do
is still working on that report and it's ten o'clock
at night. So having an image of how you see
yourself at the end of the day can be very
powerful to help keep keep you on track. Another thing
we talked about taking breaks very important, taking breaks to
(42:27):
stay replenished. If you can take a break outside in nature,
that's the absolute best kind of break that we can take,
because being in nature can really replenish us. It's also
important to consider that our attention it waxes and wanes
(42:51):
throughout the day, and this goes along with this idea
that we have limited cognitive resources. Sometimes we have a lot,
sometimes they're drained. But every person has their own personal
rhythm of these peaks and valleys of attention, and you
can get to learn when your peaks are, and probably
(43:14):
you have a pretty good idea. Most people in our
studies tend to have a peak mid morning and then
another peak mid afternoon, but it varies if you're an
early type. Your chronotype is an early type, or if
your chronotype is a late type, your peaks and valleys
(43:35):
will be a little bit different. But once you identify
when your peaks and valleys are, you can plan to
do those tasks that require the hardest work and the
most creativity when your attention is at its peak. So
for your peak times, you know, if I'm writing something,
(43:56):
I'm going to make sure i'm writing. Usually it's faring
around nine o'clock because that's when my peak time starts,
and then I go into this valley, which is probably
around close to lunchtime, and then that's the time to
take a break and replenish. And the last thing you
(44:18):
want to do is do email in your peak time.
Don't want to do that in your peak time. You
want to save it for hard work.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
That's fantastic advice.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
That's really good advice. Quite I was just sitting here
thinking about my peaks and my valleys, and when you
made that mention there about not doing your emails and
your peakers, it's like, of course, you're just wasting all
this really valuable time where it's got to go to
the kind of the maybe the most challenging task of
the day.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Or yeah, yeah. I used to live by that old
adage about eating the frog. If somebody told you at
some point of the day, you've got to eat a frog,
why would you not? Why would you sit around all
day thinking about eating the frog. You just get up
and eat the frog and then it's done. That's that's
what I do. My most challenging to ask. What I
(45:04):
love this is what.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
I love doing a podcast with Louise Gloria. I never
know what she's going to say next. I've never had
a New Zealand, I've never eaten a frog. No, I
can't never heard this.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Oh well I'll source it. It's definitely a real thing.
I mean, nobody's eating frogs.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Gloria, thank you so much for your time I think
you've given us. You know, we're all just trying to
get to the end of the year. You know, the
everyone gets a bit tired at this point of the
year and the stress and the burnout is building. So
it's a really good time just to stop and rethink
our day a little bit. So really appreciate all your tips.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
We thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
So let me just explain that the frog thing. I'm
sure other listeners have heard of this.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
I'm sure they have, along with the Greasy Pancake and
the men the other wonderful littless you've given us this,
our lovely producer has found.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
The original credit was Mark Twain. The concept is based
on eat a live frog first thing in the morning,
nothing worse will happen for the rest of the day.
And now that's but antiquated, then it was adapted to
be a productivity thing if you basically saying, if you
do your hardest thing first, then rested. So that makes
aug also like, sure, you could choose to eat the
(46:28):
frog at the end of the day, franchiesca, but all
you're going to think about is even the frog, and
you're not gonna get anything else done.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
Thank you for that explanation, because I was just wondering
why we were eating frogs in the first place.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Now one's a eating frogs.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
Look.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
Gloria's book is Attention Span if you would like to
read more, she also has a sub stack, the Future
of Attention. She talks a lot about attention in our
brains and technology and all sorts of things. So there's
just a few places where you can find out more
from Gloria, and.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Then you have it cut. Francisca, we have pretty much
come to the end of season five Things.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
Crazy Crazy would have been your highlights?
Speaker 2 (47:04):
Well, that was a pretty good one. That could be
quite life changing. I have enjoyed the season very very much,
and I think from everything from Michico talking about fashion.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Oh I know, she wasn't she loving? She was so
nervous about coming and doing that podcast, and she was fabulous.
She was gorgeous and so non judgmental, and that's sort
of I think we do choose good guests. Yeah, I know,
And didn't you make you just want to put out
a bit of color and try something different and no,
really positive loved it.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
So that was a good one. Kylie, A little bit
like today's one. Gave me a few sort of little
tricks I can play oh myself if you like, or
little fat little hacks I can do for myself.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
I love Kylie Wilson just because I will never be
an elite athlete, but I kind of I'm quite fascinated
by what makes them take. So I just loved the
sports chat. I just like hearing, yeah, the conversations out
sort of the tips and techniques that leaked athletes use.
I loved doctor Caroline Girvich and that was our episode
(48:07):
that we did kind of kind of on middle aged
rage and anger and the impact that our hormones have
on our brains. And what I loved about it was
women were saying to us. I got my partner or
my husband to listen to it, and they just came
back to me and they went oh, okay, I get it,
you know, like, and that made me feel like, you know,
it was worth coming to work.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
Yeah, I got that too.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
It was like, I am so pleased it was helpful.
I'm so pleased, you know, you're not out there on
your own. And yes, it is very common and normal,
and I'm glad now that other people around you, who
are probably wondering who the hell you are, understand why
it's happening.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
That's right, I mean there is a very validous, evidence
based reason.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
Yeah, very much. I still have to go back to
our very first guest this year. If I take a
look at the whole year, like and if you look
at the advice we've been given, what you've taken might
have worked for you, And Lara Bryden is still probably
a bit of a game changer for me with the
metabolism reset and just getting my head around and we
spoke about this throughout the year with different things with
alcohol and things like that, just getting my head around
(49:08):
the just cutting back on those ultra processed foods, cutting
back on the alcohol and the sugar and just eating
well and the difference it's made. And I'm you know, like,
I'm probably the slowest weight loser ever. But I have
not been sick this year. My immune system has been
so much better. My knees no longer randomly swell, the
(49:32):
inflammation is down.
Speaker 3 (49:34):
You know.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
I've seen all these benefits just from you know, sort
of reducing information in my body and just looking after
myself a little bit better. And so that's been That
was excellent advice for me this year.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Yeah, I need to I need to look at that again.
Obviously it's been a funny year.
Speaker 3 (49:50):
You know.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
I chose that silly word at the beginning of the year,
and what did you choose? Strong?
Speaker 3 (49:54):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (49:54):
Strong, And it's like it's like it's like the universe said, okay, lou,
let's just check a few things at you. And especially
in the last few weeks, just been a bit off.
So I will listen to Lara again. Actually, and I
did all of the books, so I will start start
to focus.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
Then. I'd just like to thank all our guests on
season five this year, in particular that I just like
to say especial thank you to doctor Lucy Hohne, who
shared such a personal story with us about dementia, and
also Lorna Riley, who also shared a really personal story,
but gave us so much positivity when it comes to
life after divorce.
Speaker 2 (50:32):
Yep. And I got a lot from talking to Justin
Colson as well, just to top up on some of
that parenting stuff and some really fascinating insights that probably
only a psychologist with a pH d would actually know.
Speaker 1 (50:45):
How's your emergency fund coming along?
Speaker 2 (50:47):
It was coming great. You did tell me not to
not to jinx it, and you know, tell you that
I have started an emergency fund and then we had
an emergency. Yeah, no, it's bloody great.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
Thanks very much, but a really big thank you to
you too for joining us on this season of the
Little Things. We hope you share this podcast with the
women and men in your lifet week and all well
after today. Regain some focus at some point in our
day in one of those valleys or peaks.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
Somewhere in there, somewhere in there, and I think we
are going to be back next year, aren't we. Friendships,
We sure can look forward to more of us, well,
not more of us, just the two of us. Still,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
There might be more of me after summer, to be
honest with you, quite possibly.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio. Or wherever you
get your podcasts, and for more episodes from us on
other topics here to MZ herald dot co dot MZED
Speaker 1 (51:45):
And we will definitely catch you next year on the
Little Things
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