For the last episode of the season, Francesca and Louise are joined by author, podcaster and editor with Mamamia, Holly Wainwright. The host of MID and co-host of Mamamia Out Loud, Wainwright has been telling women's stories for most of her career - but she wasn't sure what to expect when she approached middle age herself.
She talks to Francesca and Louise about how times are changing for women, why mid-life is about more than just hormones, becoming invisible from the male gaze, and the best parts of mid-life.
Holly's new book, He Would Never, is out now.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hi, I'm Francesca Budkin and I'm Louise Area and this
is season four of our new Zealand Here podcast The
Little Things, a podcast where we talk to experts and
find out all the little things you need to know
to improve all areas of your life and cut through
the confusion an overload of information out there. We have
a guest from a cross A Tasman with us today,
a midlife woman who's taken a proactive position on the
(00:30):
season of life. The glory years is one of our
other guests called them, and she's shining a light on
all the strengths, discoveries, gems and challenges of being mid midlife,
mid family, mid Korea, but most importantly demonstrating that this
time of life is anything but average.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
I like the expression glory years. I'm going to stick
to it. I'm holding on to that. I think you're
approaching your glory years.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Thanks, Fanchip. I'm with what I haven't said. I haven't
given you a compliment to yet. You might want to
wait about to say. You might be approaching it in
an abborting a bad manner. No, but I think you've
been very pragmatic about things. Well, you know, I'm not
very good at You're not getting worked up about things,
You're not getting.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
You know, like we just kind of just do it.
I thought we're done.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Look que you know, I do spend a probably good
hour between one am and two getting worked up about things.
But generally speaking, though, I do think that knowledge is power.
And we've learned a lot from our approach in this
podcast to seeking out expert advice, which is always what
we wanted to do. Where as our guest is she
does give lots of good advice, but she's talking about
(01:36):
those the bits in between, you know, the living.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Parts, absolutely, the bits that we don't think are worth
talking about. But interestingly, everybody is going through and experiencing
themselves anyway.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
I always go back to Oliver Berkman and just there
was a line in his book that went very well,
then this is how things are. And I think, you know,
like I just come back to that all the time
and go, just you know, actually, this is how things are.
You can make them better, you can improve things, you
can change things, you can handle things better, you can
do all those things. But actually just that kind of
(02:10):
acceptance of well, this is where I'm at, and it's
a good place and it's all good.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
I think that is something that comes with age. I
think we all agreed when we were talking to Oliver
that that that's not something you could tell a nineteen
twenty year old. But definitely, if you're going to take
anything out of the glory, is that is that, Like
you know, it's.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Like trying to tell a teenager you will be okay,
you were going to be okay in the long run,
you know.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I mean, do you feel like you know you've got
your ducks in a row yet, Francesca, Ah, no, okay,
So yes, in a way, I suppose I've got happy
children who are independent and starting their own lives.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I've got a loving partner who I adore. I've got
a house, I've got a career, I've got jobs I love.
And so there are certain things that, yeah, you can,
you could tick a box or no. Great, But I
think the one thing that I'm accepting a lot more
is that life is this huge roller coaster and I
see this almost weekly. At the moment, you do not
(03:15):
know what is around the corner. And while I think
it's great to have some ducks in a row to
give you some security, whether it's financial or emotional, whatever
it is is, I think the most important thing about
this age and stage is to go, do.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
You know what.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I've got this wealth of experience, I've got all this
life experience, and I'm going to rely on that because actually,
I don't know what tomorrow brings, and I don't know
when there's going to be a health scare, someone's going
to lose a job, there's going to be a reality
I don't know what is around the corner. And so
in a way, yeah, it's great to have some of
those ducks in a row, but it's also really important
to acknowledge you can't keep those ducks. Aren't just going
(03:52):
to sit there swimming, you know, like in a synchronized fashion.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
No, I've got this vision. Go along to main driving
in the park and sometimes there's a mother just waddling
proud as with her ducks in a row, and then
there's three or four that just scramble out of nowhere
through out of the reeds. We don't know when those
ducks come out of the reads. So we're trying to
harness all that. So I guess midlife is about you.
(04:18):
That's right, You're cand halfway there, you probably have to
also accept you will never be fully there, and that's okay,
and that's okay, yeah yeah, And actually.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Life would be really boring if your head all your
ducks in a row, wouldn't it if you were just
like you knew how things were gonna you know, you went,
oh yeah, perfect. Because actually, even though we're midlife, I'm
still hoping I've got decades left to live and I
don't see myself necessarily winding down. I might see myself
(04:47):
getting a little bit more time for myself because your
kids are moving on and things are changing, and I
really appreciate that being able to have the freedom to
decide how I want to spend that time. But I
also see that there's also this whole lot of opportunity
out there that finally, the sort of age and stage
gives of freedoms.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
You know, I couldn't agree more. I think I am
a little bit guilty sometimes about the winding down thing,
and that's okay too, you know, totally. But I think, like, well,
Kathy who we spoke to about the running, and you know,
she's she's lit a fire under me. Yeah so, And
I have actually got no intentions of one now and
we are only just over halfway through the journey.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And if you want to think about it from Kathy's
point of view, it was that whole thing about and
I'm simplifying it here. But you might have a personal goal,
but that doesn't have to be connected to your age.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Like you can think about things quite separately. You can
have all these great ambitions and goals and go out
there and do them.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
And you can take up a new hobby like pottery, Like.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Can I just say just very quickly, pottery teachers are
the loveliest people on earth. They are the most They
are kind and generous with their knowledge, and you're always
learning something new, and then they just so supportive when
you just make this piece of shit.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I just I just love them.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
They're just so good for my self esteem.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Anyway, our guest might be better poised to talk about
all these things that we're talking about. In her podcast,
she speaks to women about this sometimes crazy, wonderful and
frustrating time of life. So this ZEP is not about
getting expert advice per se. It's about the acknowledgment of
these middle years. There's something quite different from other stages
of life and talking about that with the women we're
(06:31):
spending these years worth. It's about taking a moment, grab
a fresh brew of some kind and having a chat
about our shared experiences. Holly Wainewright is the executive editor
at Australia's largest independent women's media group, Mamma Maya. She's
also a writer and host of their daily Mama Maya podcast,
Mamma Maya Out Loud and her own podcast mid Holly
(06:52):
is also a published fiction author and her most recent
book has just launched to great reviews. It's called He
Would Never. She's a mother of two teens, a loving
partner and lately she's a patient Vida Garden and somehow
Holly has found time to speak with us today. Welcome Holly.
It is great to have you with us.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
It's great to be here. Thanks so much for asking me.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
It is just a delight really. Mama Mia is a
hugely successful women's and media company with an engagement across
so many ages and stages. How significant is the midlife
audience these days? Like has it grown in the time
you've been with the company.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
It's very significant. Because Mama Mia has now been around
as a website for about seventeen years, which is, you know,
very grown up in digital world, and I've been working
there for eleven of those, which is a long time,
doing lots of different things. And obviously Mia Friedman, who
started the business, is a gen XA like myself and
(07:50):
she so there's a portion of the audience that has
very much grown with her and who are now grappling
with midlife issues. Also, of course, as you've said, because
you know, the business is much bigger than Meha and
I and everything, a really significant young audience too. One
of the things that's really unique about Mama Mia is
it has this multi generational appeal. Out Loud, which is
(08:13):
the other podcast I make with Mia and Jesse Stevens,
we often have like mothers and adult daughters come to
our live shows. We have that kind of intergenerational thing
we're very proud of. But no question that gen X
midlife portion of the audience is really significant and probably
have been with us the longest.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
No, that resonates with both Louise and I. We're sort
of around that that stage age and stage, don't we.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Louise.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Not long ago, you reflected on a previous season of
mid and how the decades from thirty five is to
sixty five. This is a window where a lot of
big things happen and we couldn't agree more. Do you
think that you were ready for it?
Speaker 3 (08:55):
No? I think in some ways, and you know, there's
lots of level to it, isn't there, Because there's the
hormonal stuff, and then there's just the fact that there's
a lot of One of the guests on an episode
of mid has described as midlife collisions. There are a
lot of big things abound to happen in that phase
where you know, maybe you've been parenting for a while,
(09:16):
or maybe that never happened for you and you're reckoning
with how you feel about it, or with choices you've made.
Maybe your relationships are you know, changing, a lot of
divorce in midlife, a lot of separation, a lot of
friend dynamics shifting, so and Korea. There's a whole lot
(09:37):
of stuff happening. But with the hormonal stuff, I think
I wasn't ready for it because I think I was
the kind of gen x feminist who was very reluctant
to give my hormones too much sort of credibility in
my world. You know, I don't know about you two.
But when I was younger, you wouldn't ever talk about
(10:01):
being pre menstrual or having you know, or anything like
that in a professional environment because you didn't want to
be dismissed as some kind of crazy woman, you know.
And I remember when I was pregnant with my first child,
who's fifteen now, so sixteen years ago, I was adamant
not to show any like cracks of weakness at work,
(10:23):
you know. I didn't want to be accused of having
baby brain or any of those things. So I think
that I've been a bit of a denier of the
realities of the female body and the impact it has
on you. But then what happens is perry menopause, and
menopause comes along and just smacks you around in the face.
You have to kind of go, oh, this isn't just
(10:45):
me who's having this, you know, dealing with all these
wobbles and issues and physical symptoms that don't make sense,
and worrying you're losing your mind. This is hormones, and
I can't deny it any longer. So in some ways
it's been a bit of a reckoning for me.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
That was very much. I was very much the same
when I was pregnant with my first child. I think
my partner wondered whether I realized the consequences of frequency
until the last moment.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
And I've been very much the same as well. I've
just kind of got on with things. And then, you know,
did not even know that perimenopause existed until I was
forty seven, you know, and my mother made the point,
she did say to me, I must apologize. I never
ever mentioned this. I got you through puberty and went
job done.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
I think we listened to the loud parts that the
changes in our menstrual cycle. We listened to those, but
there's all the whispering parts that the foggy brain, that
all of those other things that we kind of would
rather put down to anything else other than well, because
I actually didn't know what perimenopause was, you know, put
it down to just about anything else.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Same absolutely, And I think because of the very deep
agism that's embedded in our societies, and also because I
think that as women, maybe we've always been you know,
you're lucky to be here, keep going, you know, that
kind of I don't know, I think that we, maybe
as gen x's, were even more worried about how that
(12:11):
was going to affect us. What's really interesting, though, is
that now that people are talking about perimenopause much more
and again Mia Friedman, who's my friend in the co
founder of Mum and mea with her husband, she put
together a perimenopause summit a few years ago and the
reaction was absolutely overwhelming. And then it feels like in
(12:33):
these last few years it's much more talked about and
much more discussed, which is fantastic. And then on the
other end of that, what I was saying before about
me as a young woman wanting to deny all the
time that any of my female bits, internal or otherwise
were affecting me in any way. The young women I
work with, they talk all the time about what phase
(12:55):
of their cycle they're at, how they're feeling about it,
Like it's so shifted, it's really shifted, and I'm really
delighted about it.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
It's encouraging, for sure, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Well, it's my daughter's everything on an app so question,
he goes, oh, here it is, mum, Okay, right.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
They know they know a lot more in a lot
many ways about what's going on with them than we
do because of technology, So you know, it's it gives,
it takes away, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Then was it hitting those mid years that inspired you
to create mid Yes.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
It's really interesting because, as I say, we were talking
a lot about perimenopause and menopause, but I also wanted
to make a show at mom and Mia that was
about midlife. But it wasn't only about that, like because
we don't again and maybe this isn't my internalized stuff,
but I don't think. I also don't want to be
defined by that. I don't want every conversation around women
(13:52):
in their forties and fifties and beyond to be about hormones.
I want them to also be my very much is
about just when we come into this phase in our
lives where we are more experienced, we are wiser, we've
been through so much, we've survived a lot, often not
necessarily talking about myself, but certainly, you know, we can
(14:14):
all point to that in our friend groups, in our lives,
and you're so experienced and you know what you're doing
exactly that moment you're kind of pushed aside by the
culture and society whatever that means, and sort of pitied
a little bit, and it's like you're not really relevant anymore?
Are you? And oh yeah, it's a bit sad to
be you now. And I find that really infuriating because
(14:38):
historically men are often at their most powerful in their
fifties and sixties. And I know that's an external perception
of power, but you know, if ten years ago you'd
imagine what a CEO it's, or a leader of a
world leader, it's a man of that age, you know,
a white man of that age, whereas women get to
that age and we're like, oh, slowing down now, you know.
(15:01):
So I really wanted to make a show that explored
all these different parts of MED, but with a real
with a positive feel to it.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Look, I'll be honest, I love the show. I've been
listening to MED since it started, and we had started
this podcast when when I started listening to Mead, and
I was like, oh gosh, this is so interesting because
we talked to a lot of people experts in their
field about some of the physiological stuff, some of the
more philosophical stuff, but you're talking about women's actual experiences
on the every day and I often enjoy You're like
(15:34):
your pre monologue the most, If I'm honest, you have
a way of articulating the mid life experience, which has
me kind of nodding in tandem and sometimes feeling a
bit sort of teary. Do you hear that a lot?
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Yes, And it's an enormous compliment. I love writing those introductions.
This season, we've mixed them up a little bit, but
I love writing those introductions because I think, again, you
just want to express out loud. You know, I've learned
this over years of writing, obviously, but when you express
out loud something that women are too embarrassed to say,
(16:08):
or that they thought they were the only ones who
felt that way, it's always powerful. And I also want
them to have a bit of humor when it's relevant
and a bit of emotion when it's not. And I
love writing though, it is no question, but I think,
as I say, I'm just it's an amazingly rich vein
to be working in because every conversation I have on
(16:32):
mid with a woman who's you know, somewhere between forty
and sixty ish is they're always so interesting, Mike, We're.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
So interesting, guys.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
I've been through a lot and know a lot of
things and have all the good stories and you know,
have a lot of perspective, and so I love making
this show.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Just because our children don't want to listen to us, Solly,
it doesn't mean that there are other people out there
who don't and appreciate what we might have to offer.
And it's important to remember that. You know, you were
just talking before about that whole invisibility thing, and I
love the way that you're just so positive about just
ignore that and get on with your life and do
what you want to do and be out there and things.
But actually, does it matter if other people or society
(17:18):
views us as invisible.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
It's interesting because I often talk to my gen X
friends about whether that's why. So, for example, when I
turned just before I turned fifty, I went through a
bit of a you know, crisis about my self image,
and I started wearing red lipstick. I'm wearing it now.
In fact, I always put it on before I'm doing
(17:41):
something worky, like it makes me feel. I started wearing
red lipstick, and I grew a hairlong, and I bought
some new clothes, and you realize that it's all it's
about finding that physical invisibility stuff, right that you're kind
of like, I'm still here and I'm still interesting and
it definitely matters. I think I certainly have made peace
(18:03):
with and most and many midwomen I know and actually
found a lot of freedom in the invisibility that comes
from suddenly being untraceable by the male gaze. That's great,
I think, like I love that to a point. To
a point, you know, you have a certain amount of freedom,
because what I think all the time when I'm watching
(18:24):
my daughter, who's fifteen, so at the other end of that,
she is suddenly in the last couple of years, and
my new novel talks about this, but has become intensely
visible to the world. Right you see that happen to
them where they're just kids, little girls running around, you know,
being very physical and being very sort of unself conscious,
(18:45):
and then suddenly puberty hits them and they are aware
that this lens has almost just swung onto them, and
everybody has opinions about everything they're wearing, the way their
body is looking, every And I'm the other end of that,
and I can almost you almost feel somewhere this like
that camera swinging away again. And I think there's a
(19:07):
lot of freedom to be found in that. But the
problem with it is we don't want to be invisible
to people of influence. We don't want to be invisible
when it comes to having a say in the way
the world works and our lives work, right. I find
it really depressing when, particularly maybe in professional settings, but
(19:28):
otherwise it's like, oh, no, one wants to listen to
the old ladies, you know. Old ladies have all this wisdom,
you know. And I also think, and I spoke to
the author Jane Tara about this in the Invisibility episode,
that the serious side of it too, is that often
in midlife we realize we've become a bit invisible to
(19:48):
ourselves because we maybe have spent a lot of time
caring for other people, putting our needs aside that might
be entirely necessary at various points. And the really dangerous
bit is when you've lost sight of who you are
and what you need. And that's why I think also
a lot of midlife women are searching.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Maybe that's where the power is, just learning how to
harness the visibility when we want to, and how to
be out there and very visible when we can. And
I think that's something that Frinchisca and I both felt
strongly about when we started this. But what I did
notice when we all started talking a lot more about
menopause and perimenopause was a sudden media shift of can
(20:34):
we be quite about that?
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Now?
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Have we done this?
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Now? You know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (20:38):
And we were like, sorry, no, we're not turning it
down now.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
And it's moment, it's moment in the sun is over. Oh,
menopause is so last year.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
It's not a fair guys. Sorry, I know.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
And it is interesting because you know you asked me
that question before about whether or not I was prepared
for it in terms of my own experience of Perry
and menopause. Like a lot of things, I didn't necessarily
realize when I was in it that that's what was
happening to me. The anxiety, the sudden insomnia. I'd never
(21:11):
struggled to sleep, and I felt like I didn't sleep
for a year, just a whole range of feeling very
like you're just not sure if it's you or if
it's the world. Are you going crazy? What's happening? And
for me, I have found help and solutions through HRT.
(21:32):
I know it's not for everybody, And now the infuriating
thing is that I can't bloody find it. I don't
know if this is still the same with it, it's
the same in New Zealand. Terrible supply chain issues mean
that the little patch that makes me feel more like
myself is so impossible to find. And so we're not
going to shut up about these issues until there are
(21:54):
some better solutions for us.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Right The government here in New Zealand tried to switch
dot to another brand and the hour they hadn't quite
anticipated the outrage from the aged women that would come
their way, and they very sensibly and very quickly backed
down from that decision of changing their funding around there,
which I was very good of them. Choice yes with
(22:20):
our no no no, those little plastic pieces of gold.
You know, you've spoken about so many things Holly to
do with this kind of period of time. I wonder
what have been what have people really resonated with, What
have been some of the big takeaways for you? The
kind of topics that you've spoken about.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
So undoubtedly some of the biggest episodes of MED because
we sort of tackle a different theme in every episode.
One of my absolute favorite episodes and one of the
most listened to, is our episode about grief with this
incredible woman called doctor Jackie Bailey, who is a death Jeeler.
(23:00):
This is sort of almost perceived wisdom I guess in
commercial media is like, oh, it's a bit sad, isn't
it grief? Like, I know that sounds ridiculous, but people
would turn away, but because unquestionably, this is a time
of life. And obviously I'm aware that if you're getting
to this time of life and only experiencing that level
(23:22):
of loss for the first time, you're very lucky. But
there is a lot of loss in this period of
our lives, and we are soldiering on and not allowed
to talk about it a lot that episode. What really
makes me proud is that people pass it around to
each other. People message me a lot and say I
wasn't read They maybe had lost somebody, and they'd say,
(23:44):
I'm not ready to listen to it yet, but my
friend tells me I have to when I am. And
then this eldest and then I just think that was
one of those examples of having a conversation that felt big.
But Jackie brought so much humor and wisdom, which I
know sounds a bit wild about humor, but wisdom and
(24:05):
humanity to it. No platitudes, lots of reality. I loved
that episode and that resonated really hard. Equally, one we
did in the last season with Caroline Baum about caring
for an elderly parent. That was again didn't follow a
typical script because Caroline's mother as a particularly difficult woman
(24:27):
as many of our parents are, and moved in with her,
which Caroline was happy to do as a dutiful daughter,
and kind of everything went horribly wrong.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
It was really interesting episodes.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
They good then, and that also resonated very hard because
you know, that's a big theme. But then on the
other side of that, episodes we've done about body and weight,
which is a very tricky issue to talk about. We're
touching on it again this season always go well because
I think that it's not often for women in this
(25:00):
phase of life. And I know you know way more
about this than I do, Louise, but it's like our
relationship with our body externally shifts a bit from just
like I wanted to look hot in address or whatever, too,
I don't feel like myself. I feel like I'm out
of control of what's happening to me, and you know,
(25:20):
wanting to get that control back and wanting to have
live as good a life as possible for a long time,
so that always goes well. And then, to be honest,
any really raw and human story always does well. So
I think the first episode we ever did with Australian
what is she? I suppose she's a celebrity Julie Goodwin,
(25:41):
who is a food writer who talked very honestly about
her own mental health and breakdown, was a hugely successful episode.
So yeah, pretty much everything is like it's on the
table at mid the hard things, the funny things, dating,
divorce always go well. There's a lot of that happening.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Oh for sure. And I actually quite like that quite
often you're talking to people who from the outside that
we might look at and go, oh gosh, they've had
a fortunate life, you know, and actually nobody gets away
with having one hundred percent fortunate life, do they not?
By this point, I don't know, no exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
It's because you've just sort of mentioned things like grief
and dating and divorce and things, and really it's all
coming down to changes. They're just major changes, aren't they.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
It is, and it's transitions and that's what this the
most recent episode that we did with Melinda Gates, which
I'm like, oh, my god, I can't believe I got
to interview Melinda Gates. But that's the theme of her book,
and you hear a lot of people talking about that
at the minute is it is changes, it's transitions. It's
a massive time of transition. I think this age for women.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Because in a way we hope that our life experiences
up to this point are going to help us deal
with these transitions, like we've got that resilience there, but
they can still take you by complete surprise and be
a huge challenge, can't they.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Absolutely. I think it's one of my favorite topics is
about change because one of the things that I find
very I hate to use the word empowering because it's
kind of cheesy, but is the idea that you can
change that when you because often you know, and again
I'm generalizing, but women might get to a point in
midlife where they are at a point where they can
(27:24):
ask themselves some questions about what they want the next
part to look like. And for me, there's enormous freedom
in the idea that I can change. I can change things,
my circumstances, my health, my body, whatever it is, my job,
my relationships. The idea that change is still on the table,
that we're not somehow stuck in whatever the patterns are
(27:47):
and whatever the things are that have brought us to
where we are, that we can still shift. And I
think that that the changes that are forced upon us,
whether that might be a relationship ending or loss or chill,
leaving home or whatever that is, or menopause has discussed,
and then the changes we want to make. I think
that that is really key and core to this time
(28:10):
of life.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
You're right, you're listening to the little things and now
Guesst on the podcast, Day is All the MMA MIA
podcast host hollyway Right, we'll be back shortly after this break. Holly,
what are some of the best bits of midlife as
you see them?
Speaker 3 (28:32):
I have to say that for me, like, apart from
what I discussed before about the hormonal stuff and the
fact that I've definitely had some mental health challenges in
my forties I did have in my forties, I really
like this age. I really like it because it's such
a cliche to say I know who I am. I'm
(28:53):
not certain that I do know who I am, but
I can see things coming. Touish that I'm not one
of those people who writes five year goals and stuff.
I should be more like that, but I'm not. But
the life that I have now is definitely one that
I've chosen and that I've worked towards. And often when
you're in the middle of all those all that stuff,
(29:16):
you can't see it. I like the perspective of being
able to sit where I am and go, oh, yeah,
like I made these things happen, whether that's within my
family or within my professional life. I really like that
I feel more confident, and I didn't for a while.
Sometimes I get a bit irritated when people say about
(29:37):
midlife women, oh, they don't give an f they know
who they are, because I think that a lot of
insecurity can also come at this time, a lot of like, oh,
you know, I've changed the way it looks, changed the
way the world sees me change, and you can feel
very It can really damage your confidence. But I feel
like I've come out of that a bit now and
I am much more confident in who I am and
(29:57):
what I want, what I don't want, and all those things.
I really enjoy that. I think I've got better. This
is another thing is that you know, professionally, women are
often told that they need to pre prepared to shuffle
off when they're fifty ish. But I'm better at all
the things that I do than I was when I
was younger. And of course I am like we all are, right,
we're more experienced, we know more, we've done it more times.
(30:20):
So again it's about that not letting the world in.
So I definitely feel that I'm I'm more skilled than
I was lots of the things I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Do you like the sage, Luis, Yeah, I'm growing into it. Yeah,
it's taken a little while. I was just sitting You're thinking,
it's not quite like I went into a crystalis and
came out of butterfly, But there's something in between. You
sort of disappear and come back. That's how as you know,
you were describing it. I think for me, I mean,
I've got two kids. You've got this hit of you, Holly,
(30:50):
But I've got two kids that have flown the East
and one still at home, and it's not as awful
as I thought it was going to be. Yeah, that's
one of the That's one of the things I do.
I love the relationship I have with them now that
they're not in my home and I love having one
at home that I can put all my yeah, all
my love and two and he's loving that too, So
(31:11):
it's not defferitely. I don't think anybody could even say
it's all bad. You know, there are so many good things,
and even things that you thought were going to be
bad might be better than you think.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Yeah, and obviously I've got teenagers, so I'm still very
much happens on parenting. But I like this level of
hands on parenting much more than I like the little kids.
I mean, obviously I can get as tary as anyone
about seeing the old pictures of them when they were
little and being like, oh, that phase of my life,
But I have to say I have more freedom now,
no question, and I like that. What about you? Do
(31:43):
you think? Do you like this age? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (31:45):
I do.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
I'm a bit like Louise. I think I'm growing into it.
I think I'm in a much better place because we
are talking about it more, you know your podcast, that
the people that we've spoken to. I'm a lot more
relaxed about it, and I too appreciating the freedom. I'm
appreciating that the future's got a whole lot more possibilities
(32:06):
because my children are happy and independent and sort of
starting their own lives. And I think for me, probably
the hardest thing is physical issues, and not so much
how I look. I'm really happy to go. I've lived
a really good, fun full life and it's in every
wrinkle on my face. That doesn't worry me so much.
It's more just all these really boring aches and pains
(32:29):
and little mysteries that come along, and the fact that
some days you just I literally roll out of bed
in order to get to the shot. You know, Listen,
it's that after always being very active and being able
to run across the road whenever I want and no,
I'm not going to get hit by a car, I've
got a small need problem at the moment, which I
won't bore you with, Holly, But at the moment, I
can't do that, and I find that I try not
(32:51):
to let that get to me. But actually that is
probably thing that deep down annoys the hell out of me.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
Yeah, it's and it's the most important really, right. You know,
we all see my parents are elderly, they're still I'm
still lucky enough they're both with us. They're far away
from me, and their physical challenges now have just the
quality of their life has changed so much. And I
think that we at this point in our lives, we
begin to recognize and appreciate that so much more, don't we?
(33:23):
How much? And it's yeah, that's definitely a big challenge.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, it's the hardest part for me is not just
my own physical challenges. My knees are good, thank goodness,
But it's keeping on top of every bloody appointment you
have to have just to stay alive. Right, just had
some some things taken off am back, yastertone, and he
was just digging away in my back and I'm telling
complaining the whole time, as you can expect. Franchisca. Well,
(33:50):
I've got you this time. I've got my mammogram next.
You know, it's just never ending. That bothers me. And
also a lot of maintenance, a lot of bloody maintenance.
And I don't you know, I've never been a particularly
vain pierson. I didn't think, no, you're not. But I
don't like the saying ebit's that that does annoy me.
And that's gravity. I mean, that's you know, it's gonna,
(34:10):
it's gonna happen.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
It definitely annoys me. And I wrestle with the with
the vanity. I wrestle with it a lot. When I'm
on a good day, I'm just like, oh, it's so boring.
I don't want to think about my face. On a
good day, I'm like, it's so boring. I don't want
to think about my face. This is how it is.
And on a bad day, You're just like, who is
that person in the mirror? It's not me, I don't
(34:33):
heal us. I entirely understand the urge and the desire
to try and make that person look something more like
the version of you that you have.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
You know that is so true. It's that disconnects between
what you're seeing and how you're feeling. Because I still
think I'm young. I mean, I think I've definitely got
a biological age, chronicle age, and yes, and I'm down there.
I'm down there when it comes to how old I
think I am. You know, I still think I'm a
good ten to fifteen younger years younger I am. I'm
kind of often surprised when you know, I've got a
(35:08):
birthday this month, and I'm kind of like surprised at
how old I'm.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Going to be.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Really sure, really, you know that still hurts, but there
is that disconnector is so funny. There are days you
do you just look in the mirror and go, what
hei we.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Can admit to that without you know, being perceived as
vain or self indulgent. I think that's a conversation with
probably shit need to have more often, because we're all
thinking it exactly.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
And then you know, and then I think that it's
complicated now by the fact that you have a million
choices of things you could do try and make that
person in the mirror look more like the one in
your head. But how healthy is it to do all?
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Like?
Speaker 3 (35:44):
You know, I wrestle with that a bit, but then
I just give myself a cho I think about my mom.
I'm obvious, I'm from Manchester in the north of England,
and I think about how ridiculous my mom would think
all that was. She'd just be like, for God's sake,
get over yourself.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Like anyway, Well, I mean, you've spent a long time,
and you spent your early career in the temploid press,
and you know, actually probably reporting on women who are
our age now who have made all of those choices.
I can't actually make all those toices either, a family
holiday or you know, half a face left.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
Of course, no, no, no, most of us cannot. No.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
But so do you think that those women are recently
with the same things as we all? I mean, they
need to look a certain way for the profession to
keep working, presumably, But are they doing us any favors?
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Oh? Well, this is this is the million dollar question.
Maya and I argue about this all the time because
a glorious fifty something celebrity will step on a red
carpet looking twelve and maybe say that's an anti Well
she won't say exactly this, but she'll say it's an
anti feminist act like that that is understandable in the
framework of beauty, of beauty standards that we've all been
(36:54):
you know, swallowing since we were look since we were
my daughter's age, but that it's bad for women and
they should own up to what they're doing, and all
these things. We have this argument all the time. I think,
leave us alone. We've got enough scrutiny and enough enough
sort of pressure about age without also having to constantly
(37:18):
tell everybody exactly what we're doing to ourselves. But do
I think it's doing us any favors? No? I think
it's a bit depressing that we just went through an
award season in Hollywood where everybody was talking about how
amazing it is that now there are all these roles
for women over fifty and used to be the case.
It used to be that Hollywood actresses were on the
(37:38):
shelf when they were thirty, blah blah blah. And it's like, yeah,
but those women don't look like any version of fifty
that I see in my real world. So is that
progress or not? So? I don't know. I wrestle with it,
but I generally come up with you do you. I'm
trying really hard to be self accepting because I think
(38:01):
that the flip side of all those beauty standards. I mean,
I love a serum and a face cream as much
as the next person, but I'm certainly, you know, financially
constrained and also sort of ethically constrained about what else.
I just think, leave us alone.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
You know, our producer is a good decade behind us
in this journey. But she brought up a really interesting point.
She said, when we're in our twenties, we have this
perception of midlife women. Then we get to our forties
or fifties and we realize that we are actually the
same as we were at heart, but we know that
a twenty year old is kind of seeing us through
this midlife lens. I suppose if there was one message
(38:40):
you'd want to cut through, what would you want younger
generations to know about midlife women?
Speaker 3 (38:45):
I just think the one message that I try because
I work with a lot of young women, and I
have done for years, and I love it, love it.
The thing that I'm always telling them and they never
ever listen. Imagine that is.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
That we hit that we thought that might happen.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
But yeah, is that you know? There isn't Life doesn't
end at thirty or forty or fifty. You can keep
doing all the things you want to do as long
as you can do them, you know. I think I
see all the time, these ambitious, driven young women around
me go, well, I have to do absolutely everything that
(39:24):
I've ever wanted to do before I have a baby,
or I have to do it all before I get married,
or whatever it is. Whatever their thing is that they've
decided is their deadline. And I often want to say
to them, like, look around you at all these interesting
women who are older, who are still alive and they
are still doing things. And you know, I didn't start
(39:46):
writing books till I was in my forties, and that
has now become a big and important and part of
my career and a source of enormous joy. It's not over,
you know, you will still be able to do all
the things you want to do, maybe not run across
the road.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
There is such a very good point. I think there's
another thing that I'm going to put in the very
positive tick box for aging is a deadline is when
you're died. Yes, actually, just keep going, you know.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
And I asked, when I ask midlife women who listen
to mid and stuff, I do this thing where I
might send me a picture of you, like living your
best life. Midlife women are going back to university and retraining,
like a lot of them like deciding that now they're
finally going to do that thing they wanted to do,
whatever it is, and they're reinventing themselves in all kinds
of ways, and they're you know, you know, coming to
(40:36):
terms with their sexuality. Well it's just I kind of
wish that women did young A lot of young women
didn't put themselves into quite so much pressure that like.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Now now, now, now, now, no, no, no, you know
I have a twenty one year old son and he
puts some stuff under that kind of appreciare too. It
could just be a generational thing. I've seen it in
our introduction that I can sometimes be guilty of slipping
into that is it time to wind down yep mode,
which you know, people who know me might be surprised
to hear because I'm a bit full on to relexa. Yeah,
(41:09):
you don't suffer from this. You are incredibly busy five
days a week on Momma me are out loud, a
live show, a book recently out and mid and two
children and a partner. And you commute from quite some distance.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
How did you really tired listening to you?
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Sorry? I don't don't put any of it down. I mean,
you know, it's easy to say how do you do it?
But is it just that what you described before? You know,
you're just getting going.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
So it's interesting because that's all true that I do
all those things, but in the last few years. And
this is interesting because this is about that thing of
like what do you want and what do you want
your next actual look like? So for for a good
eight or nine years at Mamma Mia, I was in
a management role, so I was, you know, running teams,
(41:57):
on calls and in meetings all day every day about
what we were going to do about this and do
about that and all these things, and also making content.
And in the last few years I've changed that so
I'm now I just make things right, so I don't
have people who report into me. I don't do all
of that kind of managerial stuff anymore. It has been
(42:19):
amazingly freeing. And at the time I questioned whether my
ambition was waning with my estrogen like that, I was
kind of going, oh, I don't want to be a
boss lady anymore. You know, I was a boss lady
for quite a lot of years. I don't want to
be a boss lady anymore. Is that is my ambition waning?
(42:42):
But my ambition was just shifting. It was just changing shape, right,
And I am very busy. But most of the things
that I'm busy with now are things I love, like
I love doing them, not every day, like I'm not
leaping out of bed like birds singing and going oh,
but generally speaking, they are things that I really like,
(43:03):
writing books, making podcasts, you know, all of that stuff,
making new things like creating mid and all that stuff.
I really enjoy it. So I think that my ambition
is still revving. But my but my number one kind
of goal is to be in charge of my time.
Because you know, when you said is it time to
(43:24):
slow down? For me, it's not necessarily time to slow down,
but I need to carve out more time. One thing
I've learned about myself certainly is I need to carve
out more time where I just get to be and
just get to be with my kids, just get to
be in my garden, just get to do the things
that recharge me and that I don't I've losing patience
(43:44):
with always running to someone else's timetable. So I see
a lot of women in our age bracket not necessarily
wanting to give everything up, but they want to change
how it works so it works better for them, you
know what I mean. And I think that that is
kind of where I am. So people often say, oh,
you're very busy, and I am, and I you know,
(44:06):
I would like to you know, I'm making some I'm
always making choices about what I should focus on and
not focus on. But there's still so many things I
want to do as well.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
So yeah, it's Oliver Berkman was one of our guests.
We just adore him and I just love his simple
philosophy that time is short, you know, it's finite, So
do the things that mean something to you, that have
value to you? Does it fill you? It's that simple,
you know. And I think we do get to the
sage and where we go Actually, how would I prefer
(44:38):
to spend my time doing this or that? You know?
Speaker 3 (44:40):
Yeah, and Brent and I do. My partner, Brent, who's
a Kiwi, he's from Auckland. My partner and I we
talk a lot about what the next now, which we've
never done before. We've been together twenty years now. We
talk a lot about what the next ten years might
look like, and that we probably do want to be
those old people traveling around in our Campa van and stuff.
(45:02):
We probably do want to do that. But I think
that some kind of work, the things that I love writing,
you know, that kind of will always be a part
of it, probably till I drop. Like my dad is
a writer too, and he's eighty and obviously it's not
his job, but he's It's not like one day just
when I don't want to write anymore, you know, And.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
We're going to touch on the book at just a moment,
but I just I wanted to bring up Louise loves
a word. She loves a word of the year, and
she's so good at picking the beast one like she'll
pick one, and I got, all that sounds great.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
What you would tell me?
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Oh my god, by my word?
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Did she focused or consistency? Focus?
Speaker 1 (45:42):
No? Focus was last year? She'll think about that.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
Well, I keep talking, so so she comes up with
these brilliant words and then I come up with sex
because I can't sum up the year in one word.
I had to have like six words or something. And
I what was that?
Speaker 1 (45:55):
That was strong?
Speaker 2 (45:56):
It was strong?
Speaker 3 (45:56):
There? I like that goodwood?
Speaker 1 (45:59):
Yeah, everything, Yeah, but yours was nap. How's it going
really badly?
Speaker 3 (46:10):
I said, up, I think to like one thing that
I should have steady up to this year? I am.
The thing is is that what I'm getting better at.
Back to the thing about doing everything is I know
this period right now is really really busy. So we've
got mom Mirrut loud tour books coming out. It's like
one of those times where every minute is crammed. I'm
(46:30):
hoping we've all heard this before that come winter, the
other side of this year is going to be much
more knuppy. I love it.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
I can't wait to hear the wrap up at the
end of the year. How that, How that went?
Speaker 2 (46:42):
But and look, let's have a talk about the book.
He would be about. Lou and I have both raced
through it. Couldn't got totally totally. How is it thrilling
or terrifying putting another book out? I mean, what this
is your fifth? Is that right?
Speaker 3 (46:56):
It's my fifth? It's terrifying. Like I, it doesn't get easier.
Everyone says it must get easier. I don't really feel
like it gets it. Certainly didn't get easier to write it.
This book really kicked my ass, as they say, like
it really did writing it. I really went through some
massive confidence crashes. I rewrote it quite a few times.
(47:21):
I know it was a big deal. So it doesn't
get easier. And then putting it out there, it's this
amazing mixture of nerves and excitement. I'm trying to learn
in terms of us all being wiser, you can't be
too attached to the outcome, as everybody says, like, you
can't be too obsessed with is it going to sell
a lot? All those things, But of course it's your work.
(47:45):
You love it and you want to be able to
keep doing it, so you want it to be successful.
So it's both nerve wracking and exciting. But I still
get so thrilled when someone says they've read a book
of mine, and I still get so excited to see
it on the shelf.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
So exciting. Look, the premise is that you know there's
an extended group of friends franchshise, grin, we could relate.
We meet when our children are at kindergarten, and we've
got various kind of traditions that us in another family
do through the year, or you know, even if it's
just once a year. So I totally relate. This group
of friends go camping every year. I think that's taken
(48:22):
from your real life.
Speaker 3 (48:23):
Actually does happen in my real life, this group.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
And just all the twists and turns that life takes
over a long spanning friendship, including raising these kids. It's
relatable from the get go, and then you've spun in
such a wildly infuriating antagonist it just makes it for
total page turner. You know, can you can you give
(48:48):
us our listeners an idea of what they can expect
when they pick up this book.
Speaker 3 (48:53):
Yeah. So the book, as you've said, it's centers around
this group of friends who go camping every year, which
I go camping every year with my mother's group from Matilda,
my daughter. So we've been you know, friends for fifteen
years now, and that is a very rich that's a
very rich text in itself, right, because we've been doing that,
(49:14):
our children are growing up. They are always funny things
happen at camping and everybody feels differently about camping and
all of those things. So that was always fun. So
I had this idea in my head that I wanted
to write a book around that. But then the story
that I wanted to weave in that you referred to
as about Lockie Short, who is the husband of one
of the women, possibly the sort of queen bee of
that group. And he is a terrible person. And it's
(49:38):
not really in any doubt that he's a terrible person
from when you first meet him, but the question is
kind of just how terrible and also what you're willing
to put up with both in terms of your own
in terms of for Liss the protagonist, I guess in
terms of her own relationship with him, what you can
turn a blind eye to and what you can't, and
(49:59):
what you can feel your in control of them what
you can't. But also within that friend group is how
you know, we're very interested in female friendships, and for
good reason. But what are the limitations? You know, what
are you willing to again turn a blind eye to
within your friendship group? So I really wanted to write
about all that, So I kind of put those two
(50:19):
ideas together and the plot hopefully it goes back for
years that they've been camping previously, but also goes through
this one long weekend where a lot of stuff happens.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
It sure does. It's a same friendship is not a
mess of camper and I think you've captured camping so
well in this and this thing. I don't think she
even will be. I don't think you're going to come
camping with me.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Here's the thing. I don't mind going tramping. I don't
mind not showering, sleeping in doc hats, I don't mind
roughing it for a few days. But when it comes
to relaxing and being on holiday, I just do it
better with the bed, my own toilet and shot and
a dick cheer.
Speaker 3 (51:00):
You know. I just that's just me and I'm going
to point.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
Yeah, I look, I've done some camping and things, but
I just, yeah, they just know what maybe suits me,
and I'm at an age where I'm just gonna go
with it.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
I'm not a huge camp but this is the only
time of year that I go camp or maybe one
other time. But Brent, my partner, is a big outdoors guy,
and he would go camping heaps more. But it's just
it's just such fun to do it in this group environment.
Every year, you know, somebody's got all the kit, somebody
me forgets everything always and just ends up borrowing everybody
(51:34):
else's things. It's been so interesting. We went at Easter
and our kids are all teenagers now, and it's a
very different it's a very different game because now we
all want to go to bed at nine o'clock, you know,
and then we're like listening out for what the hell
they're up to, or as it used to be, we'd
try and get them down so we could go and
drink red wine around the fire or whatever. Like it's
(51:57):
it's it's fun.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
Oh, unlike the book. I hope that you go camping
many many years into the future with no nasty partners.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
Well that's you didn't write about the people that you
normally kept with people. No, I'm never going to with
you again.
Speaker 3 (52:12):
As you can imagine, they were my mother's group friends
were very keen to read the book, and I just
got the copies when we went away at Easter, so
I gave them all a copy. They were scanning it like.
I was like, this is what you're as a fiction author.
Your friends always think you're writing about them, and you
always have to say to them, I promise it's not you.
I promise it's not you, and no one ever really
(52:34):
believes you. But none of my mother's group friends are
in that book. Thank god.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
Oh that's really good. I wish you all a success
for that book. It's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (52:45):
Holly Wayne right, thank you very much for your time today.
We appreciate it. Thank you for all the conversations you
have helping us see the positive side to these wonderful
mid years.
Speaker 3 (52:57):
Thank you so much for having me I have absolutely
and thank you for putting all this actual expert information
out there.
Speaker 1 (53:06):
Well, we hope it's helped a couple of people anyway.
All good, Thanks so much, Holly.
Speaker 3 (53:11):
Lovely to meet you.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
So exciting to end season four with hollywayen Wright, wasn't
it was?
Speaker 1 (53:23):
I'd been looking forward to speaking with her for some time,
and actually, as it's transpired, with her being so busy,
having her now was about the perfect timing, I think.
From you know, we've had a really interesting season. We've
gone quite deep philosophically at times, you know, highs and lows,
but I don't know, it was just a nice, well
(53:45):
rounded conversation with another midlife woman.
Speaker 2 (53:48):
What episodes have resonated with you or had an impact
on you? Well?
Speaker 1 (53:54):
As usual, I don't like to it's not favorites per se,
but ones that have really sunken and Oliver because I
think I read this book about three times before we
spoke to him, So if there hasn't hadn't gone, and
I would have been in trouble. And Kathy the running
because it's just reminded me how much I love it. Now.
(54:14):
You know, Francisca and I have been walking a lot,
partly because of an injury to her knee, and now
she's just going off. You go go Run, because you
could see how inspired I was by my podcast What
About You Friendiskin.
Speaker 2 (54:29):
We started with Lara Bryden and she had released a
book called The Metabolism Reset, A science based guide for
Women on balancing insulin, losing weight, and improving health. That
was the title of the book and I picked that
up over summer and that was just an absolutely brilliant
start for me. The beginning was, yeah, look, the book
is really dense. There was so much and we spoke
(54:51):
to you know, Lara in the podcast, but we kind
of only just touched on on the basics really, and
I still don't know whether to what extent I have
a metabolic dysfunction, but I know that the amount of
sugar and alcohol and the foods and things that I
was eating, and the lack of consistency around my exercise,
and that the impact that was having on all other
(55:12):
aspects of my life. I knew that I needed to
make a change and she just has inspired me to
do that. And you know, we're three months down and
I'm happy to say that, you know, all those things
have improved. I've been to the doctor recently and who
was you know, a little taken back that the scales
had gone down and my blood pressure was down, and
was really nice to get that kind of validation to
(55:34):
the work I've been doing. Here's the thing, the whole
idea of so what I've been doing is sheltering, and
I love this term. Sheltering from alcohol, sugar and ultra
processed food. Doesn't mean I don't have those things. I
still do. I still have a couple of glasses of
wine a week, just not every night. The sugar has
been a fascinating thing to knock out of my life.
But I'm still eating fruit and have the occasional treating.
(55:56):
My goodness, did I go to town over Easter with
east eggs? My body is now not craving those foods.
So when I have a bit of a treat and
having an any time, I then go back to craving
the good foods that I'm putting in. And I am
noticing a difference across the board. So that has actually
been massive. I think it's probably going to take me
a year to get to where I want to be,
as you know, as lovely as it is seeing the
(56:17):
weight come off and things like that, it's going to
take time. But it's all totally sustainable like I don't.
I don't go hungry, and I don't feel like I
have made changes that are really hard to keep the
actually becoming very natural now and I don't have that
problem with satiety like I eat and I'm full, and
(56:37):
then I get hungry again, like proper hunger just before
lunch or dinner, and I eat again and I'm full.
I don't have this constant feeling that I can't get full.
So that's been huge for me, you know, and it's
going to be an ongoing process, but that was absolutely massive. Look,
I think the other episode that I found really special
was the grief episode with Dr Denise Quinlan, and that
(56:58):
is because I think she's an extraordinary woman and I
a little bit like what Holly was saying. I was
a bit worried that this could be a topic which
is a bit triggering for people or not the right time.
And yet I know people who've listened to it very
soon after losing someone and have found great comfort and
reassurance in it. And I think that's because of Denise
and just how extraordinary she was and the information she
(57:20):
had and the help that she got.
Speaker 1 (57:22):
That was what So my eighty five year old stepmother
lost her husband when she was only maybe forty even
maybe younger, with four children, and she listened to that.
At eighty five, she felt compelled to bring her colleagues
from thirty forty years previous to thank them for being
so incredible to her when she returned to work after
(57:42):
the loss of her husband. It was quite profound. And
for me, having lost my mother at thirteen, it was
suddenly this acceptance that I'm fifty three and I can
still feel sad about that. That's actually fine. I can
still feel sad that she didn't meet a grandchildren. I
can still wax and wayne and and not put any
(58:03):
kind of full stop on how you feel about it.
Speaker 2 (58:05):
We do these episodes because we hope that somewhere amongst
them there'll be a gym that helps people. Right, That's
why we do them. We want to help people. And
we just got the most incredible feedback on that episode.
And look, I just want to say thank you to
all our guests this season. Everyone is so incredibly generous
with their time and their knowledge and what they you know,
what they share with us. I also love Lisa Matson,
(58:27):
who was our makeup artist. She just gave us so
much information and look the one thing she and she
wanted to keep going, but we ran out of time.
But when she left, she said to us, I didn't
get around talking about colors, and I want, you know,
middle aged women to know that the burgundy and purples
are good on the eye. And can I just say
that's what I've gone on to day noise.
Speaker 1 (58:43):
Well, I'm loving.
Speaker 2 (58:45):
I'm just sharing that last bit of information.
Speaker 1 (58:47):
Yeah, that was actually beautiful. Also the blush. The blush
was such a good little pisitive advice and cleaning your
brushes and sponges. Look, you know, talking and listening has
as a privilege and we are really really lucky that
we are. We're heard and listened to, and we hope
that we also do that for our guests and make
(59:10):
sure that we are conveying their lessons to us and
New Francisca. That's beautiful. You've always said as a good student,
but look at you with Lara.
Speaker 2 (59:17):
Well, finally season four folks come through.
Speaker 1 (59:23):
Thank you so much for joining us on our New
Zealand Herald podcast series The Little Things. Yes, this is
our last episode for season four. It has been awesome
having you along for the ride. Hey, Please feel free
to share these podcasts with women in your lives, and
if you haven't already, feel free to check out seasons
one to three as well. You can follow this podcast
on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and for
(59:44):
more on this and other topics. Here to endzed Herald
dot co dot NZED and.
Speaker 2 (59:49):
Hopefully we'll catch you next time on the Little Things.
Take care, Bye bye
Hi, I'm Francesca Budkin and I'm Louise Area and this
is season four of our new Zealand Here podcast The
Little Things, a podcast where we talk to experts and
find out all the little things you need to know
to improve all areas of your life and cut through
the confusion an overload of information out there. We have
a guest from a cross A Tasman with us today,
a midlife woman who's taken a proactive position on the
(00:30):
season of life. The glory years is one of our
other guests called them, and she's shining a light on
all the strengths, discoveries, gems and challenges of being mid midlife,
mid family, mid Korea, but most importantly demonstrating that this
time of life is anything but average.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
I like the expression glory years. I'm going to stick
to it. I'm holding on to that. I think you're
approaching your glory years.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Thanks, Fanchip. I'm with what I haven't said. I haven't
given you a compliment to yet. You might want to
wait about to say. You might be approaching it in
an abborting a bad manner. No, but I think you've
been very pragmatic about things. Well, you know, I'm not
very good at You're not getting worked up about things,
You're not getting.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
You know, like we just kind of just do it.
I thought we're done.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Look que you know, I do spend a probably good
hour between one am and two getting worked up about things.
But generally speaking, though, I do think that knowledge is power.
And we've learned a lot from our approach in this
podcast to seeking out expert advice, which is always what
we wanted to do. Where as our guest is she
does give lots of good advice, but she's talking about
(01:36):
those the bits in between, you know, the living.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Parts, absolutely, the bits that we don't think are worth
talking about. But interestingly, everybody is going through and experiencing
themselves anyway.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
I always go back to Oliver Berkman and just there
was a line in his book that went very well,
then this is how things are. And I think, you know,
like I just come back to that all the time
and go, just you know, actually, this is how things are.
You can make them better, you can improve things, you
can change things, you can handle things better, you can
do all those things. But actually just that kind of
(02:10):
acceptance of well, this is where I'm at, and it's
a good place and it's all good.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
I think that is something that comes with age. I
think we all agreed when we were talking to Oliver
that that that's not something you could tell a nineteen
twenty year old. But definitely, if you're going to take
anything out of the glory, is that is that, Like
you know, it's.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Like trying to tell a teenager you will be okay,
you were going to be okay in the long run,
you know.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I mean, do you feel like you know you've got
your ducks in a row yet, Francesca, Ah, no, okay,
So yes, in a way, I suppose I've got happy
children who are independent and starting their own lives.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I've got a loving partner who I adore. I've got
a house, I've got a career, I've got jobs I love.
And so there are certain things that, yeah, you can,
you could tick a box or no. Great, But I
think the one thing that I'm accepting a lot more
is that life is this huge roller coaster and I
see this almost weekly. At the moment, you do not
(03:15):
know what is around the corner. And while I think
it's great to have some ducks in a row to
give you some security, whether it's financial or emotional, whatever
it is is, I think the most important thing about
this age and stage is to go, do.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
You know what.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I've got this wealth of experience, I've got all this
life experience, and I'm going to rely on that because actually,
I don't know what tomorrow brings, and I don't know
when there's going to be a health scare, someone's going
to lose a job, there's going to be a reality
I don't know what is around the corner. And so
in a way, yeah, it's great to have some of
those ducks in a row, but it's also really important
to acknowledge you can't keep those ducks. Aren't just going
(03:52):
to sit there swimming, you know, like in a synchronized fashion.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
No, I've got this vision. Go along to main driving
in the park and sometimes there's a mother just waddling
proud as with her ducks in a row, and then
there's three or four that just scramble out of nowhere
through out of the reeds. We don't know when those
ducks come out of the reads. So we're trying to
harness all that. So I guess midlife is about you.
(04:18):
That's right, You're cand halfway there, you probably have to
also accept you will never be fully there, and that's okay,
and that's okay, yeah yeah, And actually.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Life would be really boring if your head all your
ducks in a row, wouldn't it if you were just
like you knew how things were gonna you know, you went,
oh yeah, perfect. Because actually, even though we're midlife, I'm
still hoping I've got decades left to live and I
don't see myself necessarily winding down. I might see myself
(04:47):
getting a little bit more time for myself because your
kids are moving on and things are changing, and I
really appreciate that being able to have the freedom to
decide how I want to spend that time. But I
also see that there's also this whole lot of opportunity
out there that finally, the sort of age and stage
gives of freedoms.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
You know, I couldn't agree more. I think I am
a little bit guilty sometimes about the winding down thing,
and that's okay too, you know, totally. But I think, like, well,
Kathy who we spoke to about the running, and you know,
she's she's lit a fire under me. Yeah so, And
I have actually got no intentions of one now and
we are only just over halfway through the journey.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And if you want to think about it from Kathy's
point of view, it was that whole thing about and
I'm simplifying it here. But you might have a personal goal,
but that doesn't have to be connected to your age.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Like you can think about things quite separately. You can
have all these great ambitions and goals and go out
there and do them.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
And you can take up a new hobby like pottery, Like.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Can I just say just very quickly, pottery teachers are
the loveliest people on earth. They are the most They
are kind and generous with their knowledge, and you're always
learning something new, and then they just so supportive when
you just make this piece of shit.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I just I just love them.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
They're just so good for my self esteem.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Anyway, our guest might be better poised to talk about
all these things that we're talking about. In her podcast,
she speaks to women about this sometimes crazy, wonderful and
frustrating time of life. So this ZEP is not about
getting expert advice per se. It's about the acknowledgment of
these middle years. There's something quite different from other stages
of life and talking about that with the women we're
(06:31):
spending these years worth. It's about taking a moment, grab
a fresh brew of some kind and having a chat
about our shared experiences. Holly Wainewright is the executive editor
at Australia's largest independent women's media group, Mamma Maya. She's
also a writer and host of their daily Mama Maya podcast,
Mamma Maya Out Loud and her own podcast mid Holly
(06:52):
is also a published fiction author and her most recent
book has just launched to great reviews. It's called He
Would Never. She's a mother of two teens, a loving
partner and lately she's a patient Vida Garden and somehow
Holly has found time to speak with us today. Welcome Holly.
It is great to have you with us.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
It's great to be here. Thanks so much for asking me.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
It is just a delight really. Mama Mia is a
hugely successful women's and media company with an engagement across
so many ages and stages. How significant is the midlife
audience these days? Like has it grown in the time
you've been with the company.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
It's very significant. Because Mama Mia has now been around
as a website for about seventeen years, which is, you know,
very grown up in digital world, and I've been working
there for eleven of those, which is a long time,
doing lots of different things. And obviously Mia Friedman, who
started the business, is a gen XA like myself and
(07:50):
she so there's a portion of the audience that has
very much grown with her and who are now grappling
with midlife issues. Also, of course, as you've said, because
you know, the business is much bigger than Meha and
I and everything, a really significant young audience too. One
of the things that's really unique about Mama Mia is
it has this multi generational appeal. Out Loud, which is
(08:13):
the other podcast I make with Mia and Jesse Stevens,
we often have like mothers and adult daughters come to
our live shows. We have that kind of intergenerational thing
we're very proud of. But no question that gen X
midlife portion of the audience is really significant and probably
have been with us the longest.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
No, that resonates with both Louise and I. We're sort
of around that that stage age and stage, don't we.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Louise.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Not long ago, you reflected on a previous season of
mid and how the decades from thirty five is to
sixty five. This is a window where a lot of
big things happen and we couldn't agree more. Do you
think that you were ready for it?
Speaker 3 (08:55):
No? I think in some ways, and you know, there's
lots of level to it, isn't there, Because there's the
hormonal stuff, and then there's just the fact that there's
a lot of One of the guests on an episode
of mid has described as midlife collisions. There are a
lot of big things abound to happen in that phase
where you know, maybe you've been parenting for a while,
(09:16):
or maybe that never happened for you and you're reckoning
with how you feel about it, or with choices you've made.
Maybe your relationships are you know, changing, a lot of
divorce in midlife, a lot of separation, a lot of
friend dynamics shifting, so and Korea. There's a whole lot
(09:37):
of stuff happening. But with the hormonal stuff, I think
I wasn't ready for it because I think I was
the kind of gen x feminist who was very reluctant
to give my hormones too much sort of credibility in
my world. You know, I don't know about you two.
But when I was younger, you wouldn't ever talk about
(10:01):
being pre menstrual or having you know, or anything like
that in a professional environment because you didn't want to
be dismissed as some kind of crazy woman, you know.
And I remember when I was pregnant with my first child,
who's fifteen now, so sixteen years ago, I was adamant
not to show any like cracks of weakness at work,
(10:23):
you know. I didn't want to be accused of having
baby brain or any of those things. So I think
that I've been a bit of a denier of the
realities of the female body and the impact it has
on you. But then what happens is perry menopause, and
menopause comes along and just smacks you around in the face.
You have to kind of go, oh, this isn't just
(10:45):
me who's having this, you know, dealing with all these
wobbles and issues and physical symptoms that don't make sense,
and worrying you're losing your mind. This is hormones, and
I can't deny it any longer. So in some ways
it's been a bit of a reckoning for me.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
That was very much. I was very much the same
when I was pregnant with my first child. I think
my partner wondered whether I realized the consequences of frequency
until the last moment.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
And I've been very much the same as well. I've
just kind of got on with things. And then, you know,
did not even know that perimenopause existed until I was
forty seven, you know, and my mother made the point,
she did say to me, I must apologize. I never
ever mentioned this. I got you through puberty and went
job done.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
I think we listened to the loud parts that the
changes in our menstrual cycle. We listened to those, but
there's all the whispering parts that the foggy brain, that
all of those other things that we kind of would
rather put down to anything else other than well, because
I actually didn't know what perimenopause was, you know, put
it down to just about anything else.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Same absolutely, And I think because of the very deep
agism that's embedded in our societies, and also because I
think that as women, maybe we've always been you know,
you're lucky to be here, keep going, you know, that
kind of I don't know, I think that we, maybe
as gen x's, were even more worried about how that
(12:11):
was going to affect us. What's really interesting, though, is
that now that people are talking about perimenopause much more
and again Mia Friedman, who's my friend in the co
founder of Mum and mea with her husband, she put
together a perimenopause summit a few years ago and the
reaction was absolutely overwhelming. And then it feels like in
(12:33):
these last few years it's much more talked about and
much more discussed, which is fantastic. And then on the
other end of that, what I was saying before about
me as a young woman wanting to deny all the
time that any of my female bits, internal or otherwise
were affecting me in any way. The young women I
work with, they talk all the time about what phase
(12:55):
of their cycle they're at, how they're feeling about it,
Like it's so shifted, it's really shifted, and I'm really
delighted about it.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
It's encouraging, for sure, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Well, it's my daughter's everything on an app so question,
he goes, oh, here it is, mum, Okay, right.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
They know they know a lot more in a lot
many ways about what's going on with them than we
do because of technology, So you know, it's it gives,
it takes away, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Then was it hitting those mid years that inspired you
to create mid Yes.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
It's really interesting because, as I say, we were talking
a lot about perimenopause and menopause, but I also wanted
to make a show at mom and Mia that was
about midlife. But it wasn't only about that, like because
we don't again and maybe this isn't my internalized stuff,
but I don't think. I also don't want to be
defined by that. I don't want every conversation around women
(13:52):
in their forties and fifties and beyond to be about hormones.
I want them to also be my very much is
about just when we come into this phase in our
lives where we are more experienced, we are wiser, we've
been through so much, we've survived a lot, often not
necessarily talking about myself, but certainly, you know, we can
(14:14):
all point to that in our friend groups, in our lives,
and you're so experienced and you know what you're doing
exactly that moment you're kind of pushed aside by the
culture and society whatever that means, and sort of pitied
a little bit, and it's like you're not really relevant anymore?
Are you? And oh yeah, it's a bit sad to
be you now. And I find that really infuriating because
(14:38):
historically men are often at their most powerful in their
fifties and sixties. And I know that's an external perception
of power, but you know, if ten years ago you'd
imagine what a CEO it's, or a leader of a
world leader, it's a man of that age, you know,
a white man of that age, whereas women get to
that age and we're like, oh, slowing down now, you know.
(15:01):
So I really wanted to make a show that explored
all these different parts of MED, but with a real
with a positive feel to it.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Look, I'll be honest, I love the show. I've been
listening to MED since it started, and we had started
this podcast when when I started listening to Mead, and
I was like, oh gosh, this is so interesting because
we talked to a lot of people experts in their
field about some of the physiological stuff, some of the
more philosophical stuff, but you're talking about women's actual experiences
on the every day and I often enjoy You're like
(15:34):
your pre monologue the most, If I'm honest, you have
a way of articulating the mid life experience, which has
me kind of nodding in tandem and sometimes feeling a
bit sort of teary. Do you hear that a lot?
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Yes, And it's an enormous compliment. I love writing those introductions.
This season, we've mixed them up a little bit, but
I love writing those introductions because I think, again, you
just want to express out loud. You know, I've learned
this over years of writing, obviously, but when you express
out loud something that women are too embarrassed to say,
(16:08):
or that they thought they were the only ones who
felt that way, it's always powerful. And I also want
them to have a bit of humor when it's relevant
and a bit of emotion when it's not. And I
love writing though, it is no question, but I think,
as I say, I'm just it's an amazingly rich vein
to be working in because every conversation I have on
(16:32):
mid with a woman who's you know, somewhere between forty
and sixty ish is they're always so interesting, Mike, We're.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
So interesting, guys.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
I've been through a lot and know a lot of
things and have all the good stories and you know,
have a lot of perspective, and so I love making
this show.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Just because our children don't want to listen to us, Solly,
it doesn't mean that there are other people out there
who don't and appreciate what we might have to offer.
And it's important to remember that. You know, you were
just talking before about that whole invisibility thing, and I
love the way that you're just so positive about just
ignore that and get on with your life and do
what you want to do and be out there and things.
But actually, does it matter if other people or society
(17:18):
views us as invisible.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
It's interesting because I often talk to my gen X
friends about whether that's why. So, for example, when I
turned just before I turned fifty, I went through a
bit of a you know, crisis about my self image,
and I started wearing red lipstick. I'm wearing it now.
In fact, I always put it on before I'm doing
(17:41):
something worky, like it makes me feel. I started wearing
red lipstick, and I grew a hairlong, and I bought
some new clothes, and you realize that it's all it's
about finding that physical invisibility stuff, right that you're kind
of like, I'm still here and I'm still interesting and
it definitely matters. I think I certainly have made peace
(18:03):
with and most and many midwomen I know and actually
found a lot of freedom in the invisibility that comes
from suddenly being untraceable by the male gaze. That's great,
I think, like I love that to a point. To
a point, you know, you have a certain amount of freedom,
because what I think all the time when I'm watching
(18:24):
my daughter, who's fifteen, so at the other end of that,
she is suddenly in the last couple of years, and
my new novel talks about this, but has become intensely
visible to the world. Right you see that happen to
them where they're just kids, little girls running around, you know,
being very physical and being very sort of unself conscious,
(18:45):
and then suddenly puberty hits them and they are aware
that this lens has almost just swung onto them, and
everybody has opinions about everything they're wearing, the way their
body is looking, every And I'm the other end of that,
and I can almost you almost feel somewhere this like
that camera swinging away again. And I think there's a
(19:07):
lot of freedom to be found in that. But the
problem with it is we don't want to be invisible
to people of influence. We don't want to be invisible
when it comes to having a say in the way
the world works and our lives work, right. I find
it really depressing when, particularly maybe in professional settings, but
(19:28):
otherwise it's like, oh, no, one wants to listen to
the old ladies, you know. Old ladies have all this wisdom,
you know. And I also think, and I spoke to
the author Jane Tara about this in the Invisibility episode,
that the serious side of it too, is that often
in midlife we realize we've become a bit invisible to
(19:48):
ourselves because we maybe have spent a lot of time
caring for other people, putting our needs aside that might
be entirely necessary at various points. And the really dangerous
bit is when you've lost sight of who you are
and what you need. And that's why I think also
a lot of midlife women are searching.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Maybe that's where the power is, just learning how to
harness the visibility when we want to, and how to
be out there and very visible when we can. And
I think that's something that Frinchisca and I both felt
strongly about when we started this. But what I did
notice when we all started talking a lot more about
menopause and perimenopause was a sudden media shift of can
(20:34):
we be quite about that?
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Now?
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Have we done this?
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Now? You know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (20:38):
And we were like, sorry, no, we're not turning it
down now.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
And it's moment, it's moment in the sun is over. Oh,
menopause is so last year.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
It's not a fair guys. Sorry, I know.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
And it is interesting because you know you asked me
that question before about whether or not I was prepared
for it in terms of my own experience of Perry
and menopause. Like a lot of things, I didn't necessarily
realize when I was in it that that's what was
happening to me. The anxiety, the sudden insomnia. I'd never
(21:11):
struggled to sleep, and I felt like I didn't sleep
for a year, just a whole range of feeling very
like you're just not sure if it's you or if
it's the world. Are you going crazy? What's happening? And
for me, I have found help and solutions through HRT.
(21:32):
I know it's not for everybody, And now the infuriating
thing is that I can't bloody find it. I don't
know if this is still the same with it, it's
the same in New Zealand. Terrible supply chain issues mean
that the little patch that makes me feel more like
myself is so impossible to find. And so we're not
going to shut up about these issues until there are
(21:54):
some better solutions for us.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Right The government here in New Zealand tried to switch
dot to another brand and the hour they hadn't quite
anticipated the outrage from the aged women that would come
their way, and they very sensibly and very quickly backed
down from that decision of changing their funding around there,
which I was very good of them. Choice yes with
(22:20):
our no no no, those little plastic pieces of gold.
You know, you've spoken about so many things Holly to
do with this kind of period of time. I wonder
what have been what have people really resonated with, What
have been some of the big takeaways for you? The
kind of topics that you've spoken about.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
So undoubtedly some of the biggest episodes of MED because
we sort of tackle a different theme in every episode.
One of my absolute favorite episodes and one of the
most listened to, is our episode about grief with this
incredible woman called doctor Jackie Bailey, who is a death Jeeler.
(23:00):
This is sort of almost perceived wisdom I guess in
commercial media is like, oh, it's a bit sad, isn't
it grief? Like, I know that sounds ridiculous, but people
would turn away, but because unquestionably, this is a time
of life. And obviously I'm aware that if you're getting
to this time of life and only experiencing that level
(23:22):
of loss for the first time, you're very lucky. But
there is a lot of loss in this period of
our lives, and we are soldiering on and not allowed
to talk about it a lot that episode. What really
makes me proud is that people pass it around to
each other. People message me a lot and say I
wasn't read They maybe had lost somebody, and they'd say,
(23:44):
I'm not ready to listen to it yet, but my
friend tells me I have to when I am. And
then this eldest and then I just think that was
one of those examples of having a conversation that felt big.
But Jackie brought so much humor and wisdom, which I
know sounds a bit wild about humor, but wisdom and
(24:05):
humanity to it. No platitudes, lots of reality. I loved
that episode and that resonated really hard. Equally, one we
did in the last season with Caroline Baum about caring
for an elderly parent. That was again didn't follow a
typical script because Caroline's mother as a particularly difficult woman
(24:27):
as many of our parents are, and moved in with her,
which Caroline was happy to do as a dutiful daughter,
and kind of everything went horribly wrong.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
It was really interesting episodes.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
They good then, and that also resonated very hard because
you know, that's a big theme. But then on the
other side of that, episodes we've done about body and weight,
which is a very tricky issue to talk about. We're
touching on it again this season always go well because
I think that it's not often for women in this
(25:00):
phase of life. And I know you know way more
about this than I do, Louise, but it's like our
relationship with our body externally shifts a bit from just
like I wanted to look hot in address or whatever, too,
I don't feel like myself. I feel like I'm out
of control of what's happening to me, and you know,
(25:20):
wanting to get that control back and wanting to have
live as good a life as possible for a long time,
so that always goes well. And then, to be honest,
any really raw and human story always does well. So
I think the first episode we ever did with Australian
what is she? I suppose she's a celebrity Julie Goodwin,
(25:41):
who is a food writer who talked very honestly about
her own mental health and breakdown, was a hugely successful episode.
So yeah, pretty much everything is like it's on the
table at mid the hard things, the funny things, dating,
divorce always go well. There's a lot of that happening.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Oh for sure. And I actually quite like that quite
often you're talking to people who from the outside that
we might look at and go, oh gosh, they've had
a fortunate life, you know, and actually nobody gets away
with having one hundred percent fortunate life, do they not?
By this point, I don't know, no exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
It's because you've just sort of mentioned things like grief
and dating and divorce and things, and really it's all
coming down to changes. They're just major changes, aren't they.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
It is, and it's transitions and that's what this the
most recent episode that we did with Melinda Gates, which
I'm like, oh, my god, I can't believe I got
to interview Melinda Gates. But that's the theme of her book,
and you hear a lot of people talking about that
at the minute is it is changes, it's transitions. It's
a massive time of transition. I think this age for women.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Because in a way we hope that our life experiences
up to this point are going to help us deal
with these transitions, like we've got that resilience there, but
they can still take you by complete surprise and be
a huge challenge, can't they.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Absolutely. I think it's one of my favorite topics is
about change because one of the things that I find
very I hate to use the word empowering because it's
kind of cheesy, but is the idea that you can
change that when you because often you know, and again
I'm generalizing, but women might get to a point in
midlife where they are at a point where they can
(27:24):
ask themselves some questions about what they want the next
part to look like. And for me, there's enormous freedom
in the idea that I can change. I can change things,
my circumstances, my health, my body, whatever it is, my job,
my relationships. The idea that change is still on the table,
that we're not somehow stuck in whatever the patterns are
(27:47):
and whatever the things are that have brought us to
where we are, that we can still shift. And I
think that that the changes that are forced upon us,
whether that might be a relationship ending or loss or chill,
leaving home or whatever that is, or menopause has discussed,
and then the changes we want to make. I think
that that is really key and core to this time
(28:10):
of life.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
You're right, you're listening to the little things and now
Guesst on the podcast, Day is All the MMA MIA
podcast host hollyway Right, we'll be back shortly after this break. Holly,
what are some of the best bits of midlife as
you see them?
Speaker 3 (28:32):
I have to say that for me, like, apart from
what I discussed before about the hormonal stuff and the
fact that I've definitely had some mental health challenges in
my forties I did have in my forties, I really
like this age. I really like it because it's such
a cliche to say I know who I am. I'm
(28:53):
not certain that I do know who I am, but
I can see things coming. Touish that I'm not one
of those people who writes five year goals and stuff.
I should be more like that, but I'm not. But
the life that I have now is definitely one that
I've chosen and that I've worked towards. And often when
you're in the middle of all those all that stuff,
(29:16):
you can't see it. I like the perspective of being
able to sit where I am and go, oh, yeah,
like I made these things happen, whether that's within my
family or within my professional life. I really like that
I feel more confident, and I didn't for a while.
Sometimes I get a bit irritated when people say about
(29:37):
midlife women, oh, they don't give an f they know
who they are, because I think that a lot of
insecurity can also come at this time, a lot of like, oh,
you know, I've changed the way it looks, changed the
way the world sees me change, and you can feel
very It can really damage your confidence. But I feel
like I've come out of that a bit now and
I am much more confident in who I am and
(29:57):
what I want, what I don't want, and all those things.
I really enjoy that. I think I've got better. This
is another thing is that you know, professionally, women are
often told that they need to pre prepared to shuffle
off when they're fifty ish. But I'm better at all
the things that I do than I was when I
was younger. And of course I am like we all are, right,
we're more experienced, we know more, we've done it more times.
(30:20):
So again it's about that not letting the world in.
So I definitely feel that I'm I'm more skilled than
I was lots of the things I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Do you like the sage, Luis, Yeah, I'm growing into it. Yeah,
it's taken a little while. I was just sitting You're thinking,
it's not quite like I went into a crystalis and
came out of butterfly, But there's something in between. You
sort of disappear and come back. That's how as you know,
you were describing it. I think for me, I mean,
I've got two kids. You've got this hit of you, Holly,
(30:50):
But I've got two kids that have flown the East
and one still at home, and it's not as awful
as I thought it was going to be. Yeah, that's
one of the That's one of the things I do.
I love the relationship I have with them now that
they're not in my home and I love having one
at home that I can put all my yeah, all
my love and two and he's loving that too, So
(31:11):
it's not defferitely. I don't think anybody could even say
it's all bad. You know, there are so many good things,
and even things that you thought were going to be
bad might be better than you think.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Yeah, and obviously I've got teenagers, so I'm still very
much happens on parenting. But I like this level of
hands on parenting much more than I like the little kids.
I mean, obviously I can get as tary as anyone
about seeing the old pictures of them when they were
little and being like, oh, that phase of my life,
But I have to say I have more freedom now,
no question, and I like that. What about you? Do
(31:43):
you think? Do you like this age? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (31:45):
I do.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
I'm a bit like Louise. I think I'm growing into it.
I think I'm in a much better place because we
are talking about it more, you know your podcast, that
the people that we've spoken to. I'm a lot more
relaxed about it, and I too appreciating the freedom. I'm
appreciating that the future's got a whole lot more possibilities
(32:06):
because my children are happy and independent and sort of
starting their own lives. And I think for me, probably
the hardest thing is physical issues, and not so much
how I look. I'm really happy to go. I've lived
a really good, fun full life and it's in every
wrinkle on my face. That doesn't worry me so much.
It's more just all these really boring aches and pains
(32:29):
and little mysteries that come along, and the fact that
some days you just I literally roll out of bed
in order to get to the shot. You know, Listen,
it's that after always being very active and being able
to run across the road whenever I want and no,
I'm not going to get hit by a car, I've
got a small need problem at the moment, which I
won't bore you with, Holly, But at the moment, I
can't do that, and I find that I try not
(32:51):
to let that get to me. But actually that is
probably thing that deep down annoys the hell out of me.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
Yeah, it's and it's the most important really, right. You know,
we all see my parents are elderly, they're still I'm
still lucky enough they're both with us. They're far away
from me, and their physical challenges now have just the
quality of their life has changed so much. And I
think that we at this point in our lives, we
begin to recognize and appreciate that so much more, don't we?
(33:23):
How much? And it's yeah, that's definitely a big challenge.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, it's the hardest part for me is not just
my own physical challenges. My knees are good, thank goodness,
But it's keeping on top of every bloody appointment you
have to have just to stay alive. Right, just had
some some things taken off am back, yastertone, and he
was just digging away in my back and I'm telling
complaining the whole time, as you can expect. Franchisca. Well,
(33:50):
I've got you this time. I've got my mammogram next.
You know, it's just never ending. That bothers me. And
also a lot of maintenance, a lot of bloody maintenance.
And I don't you know, I've never been a particularly
vain pierson. I didn't think, no, you're not. But I
don't like the saying ebit's that that does annoy me.
And that's gravity. I mean, that's you know, it's gonna,
(34:10):
it's gonna happen.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
It definitely annoys me. And I wrestle with the with
the vanity. I wrestle with it a lot. When I'm
on a good day, I'm just like, oh, it's so boring.
I don't want to think about my face. On a
good day, I'm like, it's so boring. I don't want
to think about my face. This is how it is.
And on a bad day, You're just like, who is
that person in the mirror? It's not me, I don't
(34:33):
heal us. I entirely understand the urge and the desire
to try and make that person look something more like
the version of you that you have.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
You know that is so true. It's that disconnects between
what you're seeing and how you're feeling. Because I still
think I'm young. I mean, I think I've definitely got
a biological age, chronicle age, and yes, and I'm down there.
I'm down there when it comes to how old I
think I am. You know, I still think I'm a
good ten to fifteen younger years younger I am. I'm
kind of often surprised when you know, I've got a
(35:08):
birthday this month, and I'm kind of like surprised at
how old I'm.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Going to be.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Really sure, really, you know that still hurts, but there
is that disconnector is so funny. There are days you
do you just look in the mirror and go, what
hei we.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Can admit to that without you know, being perceived as
vain or self indulgent. I think that's a conversation with
probably shit need to have more often, because we're all
thinking it exactly.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
And then you know, and then I think that it's
complicated now by the fact that you have a million
choices of things you could do try and make that
person in the mirror look more like the one in
your head. But how healthy is it to do all?
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Like?
Speaker 3 (35:44):
You know, I wrestle with that a bit, but then
I just give myself a cho I think about my mom.
I'm obvious, I'm from Manchester in the north of England,
and I think about how ridiculous my mom would think
all that was. She'd just be like, for God's sake,
get over yourself.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Like anyway, Well, I mean, you've spent a long time,
and you spent your early career in the temploid press,
and you know, actually probably reporting on women who are
our age now who have made all of those choices.
I can't actually make all those toices either, a family
holiday or you know, half a face left.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
Of course, no, no, no, most of us cannot. No.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
But so do you think that those women are recently
with the same things as we all? I mean, they
need to look a certain way for the profession to
keep working, presumably, But are they doing us any favors?
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Oh? Well, this is this is the million dollar question.
Maya and I argue about this all the time because
a glorious fifty something celebrity will step on a red
carpet looking twelve and maybe say that's an anti Well
she won't say exactly this, but she'll say it's an
anti feminist act like that that is understandable in the
framework of beauty, of beauty standards that we've all been
(36:54):
you know, swallowing since we were look since we were
my daughter's age, but that it's bad for women and
they should own up to what they're doing, and all
these things. We have this argument all the time. I think,
leave us alone. We've got enough scrutiny and enough enough
sort of pressure about age without also having to constantly
(37:18):
tell everybody exactly what we're doing to ourselves. But do
I think it's doing us any favors? No? I think
it's a bit depressing that we just went through an
award season in Hollywood where everybody was talking about how
amazing it is that now there are all these roles
for women over fifty and used to be the case.
It used to be that Hollywood actresses were on the
(37:38):
shelf when they were thirty, blah blah blah. And it's like, yeah,
but those women don't look like any version of fifty
that I see in my real world. So is that
progress or not? So? I don't know. I wrestle with it,
but I generally come up with you do you. I'm
trying really hard to be self accepting because I think
(38:01):
that the flip side of all those beauty standards. I mean,
I love a serum and a face cream as much
as the next person, but I'm certainly, you know, financially
constrained and also sort of ethically constrained about what else.
I just think, leave us alone.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
You know, our producer is a good decade behind us
in this journey. But she brought up a really interesting point.
She said, when we're in our twenties, we have this
perception of midlife women. Then we get to our forties
or fifties and we realize that we are actually the
same as we were at heart, but we know that
a twenty year old is kind of seeing us through
this midlife lens. I suppose if there was one message
(38:40):
you'd want to cut through, what would you want younger
generations to know about midlife women?
Speaker 3 (38:45):
I just think the one message that I try because
I work with a lot of young women, and I
have done for years, and I love it, love it.
The thing that I'm always telling them and they never
ever listen. Imagine that is.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
That we hit that we thought that might happen.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
But yeah, is that you know? There isn't Life doesn't
end at thirty or forty or fifty. You can keep
doing all the things you want to do as long
as you can do them, you know. I think I
see all the time, these ambitious, driven young women around
me go, well, I have to do absolutely everything that
(39:24):
I've ever wanted to do before I have a baby,
or I have to do it all before I get married,
or whatever it is. Whatever their thing is that they've
decided is their deadline. And I often want to say
to them, like, look around you at all these interesting
women who are older, who are still alive and they
are still doing things. And you know, I didn't start
(39:46):
writing books till I was in my forties, and that
has now become a big and important and part of
my career and a source of enormous joy. It's not over,
you know, you will still be able to do all
the things you want to do, maybe not run across
the road.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
There is such a very good point. I think there's
another thing that I'm going to put in the very
positive tick box for aging is a deadline is when
you're died. Yes, actually, just keep going, you know.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
And I asked, when I ask midlife women who listen
to mid and stuff, I do this thing where I
might send me a picture of you, like living your
best life. Midlife women are going back to university and retraining,
like a lot of them like deciding that now they're
finally going to do that thing they wanted to do,
whatever it is, and they're reinventing themselves in all kinds
of ways, and they're you know, you know, coming to
(40:36):
terms with their sexuality. Well it's just I kind of
wish that women did young A lot of young women
didn't put themselves into quite so much pressure that like.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Now now, now, now, now, no, no, no, you know
I have a twenty one year old son and he
puts some stuff under that kind of appreciare too. It
could just be a generational thing. I've seen it in
our introduction that I can sometimes be guilty of slipping
into that is it time to wind down yep mode,
which you know, people who know me might be surprised
to hear because I'm a bit full on to relexa. Yeah,
(41:09):
you don't suffer from this. You are incredibly busy five
days a week on Momma me are out loud, a
live show, a book recently out and mid and two
children and a partner. And you commute from quite some distance.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
How did you really tired listening to you?
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Sorry? I don't don't put any of it down. I mean,
you know, it's easy to say how do you do it?
But is it just that what you described before? You know,
you're just getting going.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
So it's interesting because that's all true that I do
all those things, but in the last few years. And
this is interesting because this is about that thing of
like what do you want and what do you want
your next actual look like? So for for a good
eight or nine years at Mamma Mia, I was in
a management role, so I was, you know, running teams,
(41:57):
on calls and in meetings all day every day about
what we were going to do about this and do
about that and all these things, and also making content.
And in the last few years I've changed that so
I'm now I just make things right, so I don't
have people who report into me. I don't do all
of that kind of managerial stuff anymore. It has been
(42:19):
amazingly freeing. And at the time I questioned whether my
ambition was waning with my estrogen like that, I was
kind of going, oh, I don't want to be a
boss lady anymore. You know, I was a boss lady
for quite a lot of years. I don't want to
be a boss lady anymore. Is that is my ambition waning?
(42:42):
But my ambition was just shifting. It was just changing shape, right,
And I am very busy. But most of the things
that I'm busy with now are things I love, like
I love doing them, not every day, like I'm not
leaping out of bed like birds singing and going oh,
but generally speaking, they are things that I really like,
(43:03):
writing books, making podcasts, you know, all of that stuff,
making new things like creating mid and all that stuff.
I really enjoy it. So I think that my ambition
is still revving. But my but my number one kind
of goal is to be in charge of my time.
Because you know, when you said is it time to
(43:24):
slow down? For me, it's not necessarily time to slow down,
but I need to carve out more time. One thing
I've learned about myself certainly is I need to carve
out more time where I just get to be and
just get to be with my kids, just get to
be in my garden, just get to do the things
that recharge me and that I don't I've losing patience
(43:44):
with always running to someone else's timetable. So I see
a lot of women in our age bracket not necessarily
wanting to give everything up, but they want to change
how it works so it works better for them, you
know what I mean. And I think that that is
kind of where I am. So people often say, oh,
you're very busy, and I am, and I you know,
(44:06):
I would like to you know, I'm making some I'm
always making choices about what I should focus on and
not focus on. But there's still so many things I
want to do as well.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
So yeah, it's Oliver Berkman was one of our guests.
We just adore him and I just love his simple
philosophy that time is short, you know, it's finite, So
do the things that mean something to you, that have
value to you? Does it fill you? It's that simple,
you know. And I think we do get to the
sage and where we go Actually, how would I prefer
(44:38):
to spend my time doing this or that? You know?
Speaker 3 (44:40):
Yeah, and Brent and I do. My partner, Brent, who's
a Kiwi, he's from Auckland. My partner and I we
talk a lot about what the next now, which we've
never done before. We've been together twenty years now. We
talk a lot about what the next ten years might
look like, and that we probably do want to be
those old people traveling around in our Campa van and stuff.
(45:02):
We probably do want to do that. But I think
that some kind of work, the things that I love writing,
you know, that kind of will always be a part
of it, probably till I drop. Like my dad is
a writer too, and he's eighty and obviously it's not
his job, but he's It's not like one day just
when I don't want to write anymore, you know, And.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
We're going to touch on the book at just a moment,
but I just I wanted to bring up Louise loves
a word. She loves a word of the year, and
she's so good at picking the beast one like she'll
pick one, and I got, all that sounds great.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
What you would tell me?
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Oh my god, by my word?
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Did she focused or consistency? Focus?
Speaker 1 (45:42):
No? Focus was last year? She'll think about that.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
Well, I keep talking, so so she comes up with
these brilliant words and then I come up with sex
because I can't sum up the year in one word.
I had to have like six words or something. And
I what was that?
Speaker 1 (45:55):
That was strong?
Speaker 2 (45:56):
It was strong?
Speaker 3 (45:56):
There? I like that goodwood?
Speaker 1 (45:59):
Yeah, everything, Yeah, but yours was nap. How's it going
really badly?
Speaker 3 (46:10):
I said, up, I think to like one thing that
I should have steady up to this year? I am.
The thing is is that what I'm getting better at.
Back to the thing about doing everything is I know
this period right now is really really busy. So we've
got mom Mirrut loud tour books coming out. It's like
one of those times where every minute is crammed. I'm
(46:30):
hoping we've all heard this before that come winter, the
other side of this year is going to be much
more knuppy. I love it.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
I can't wait to hear the wrap up at the
end of the year. How that, How that went?
Speaker 2 (46:42):
But and look, let's have a talk about the book.
He would be about. Lou and I have both raced
through it. Couldn't got totally totally. How is it thrilling
or terrifying putting another book out? I mean, what this
is your fifth? Is that right?
Speaker 3 (46:56):
It's my fifth? It's terrifying. Like I, it doesn't get easier.
Everyone says it must get easier. I don't really feel
like it gets it. Certainly didn't get easier to write it.
This book really kicked my ass, as they say, like
it really did writing it. I really went through some
massive confidence crashes. I rewrote it quite a few times.
(47:21):
I know it was a big deal. So it doesn't
get easier. And then putting it out there, it's this
amazing mixture of nerves and excitement. I'm trying to learn
in terms of us all being wiser, you can't be
too attached to the outcome, as everybody says, like, you
can't be too obsessed with is it going to sell
a lot? All those things, But of course it's your work.
(47:45):
You love it and you want to be able to
keep doing it, so you want it to be successful.
So it's both nerve wracking and exciting. But I still
get so thrilled when someone says they've read a book
of mine, and I still get so excited to see
it on the shelf.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
So exciting. Look, the premise is that you know there's
an extended group of friends franchshise, grin, we could relate.
We meet when our children are at kindergarten, and we've
got various kind of traditions that us in another family
do through the year, or you know, even if it's
just once a year. So I totally relate. This group
of friends go camping every year. I think that's taken
(48:22):
from your real life.
Speaker 3 (48:23):
Actually does happen in my real life, this group.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
And just all the twists and turns that life takes
over a long spanning friendship, including raising these kids. It's
relatable from the get go, and then you've spun in
such a wildly infuriating antagonist it just makes it for
total page turner. You know, can you can you give
(48:48):
us our listeners an idea of what they can expect
when they pick up this book.
Speaker 3 (48:53):
Yeah. So the book, as you've said, it's centers around
this group of friends who go camping every year, which
I go camping every year with my mother's group from Matilda,
my daughter. So we've been you know, friends for fifteen
years now, and that is a very rich that's a
very rich text in itself, right, because we've been doing that,
(49:14):
our children are growing up. They are always funny things
happen at camping and everybody feels differently about camping and
all of those things. So that was always fun. So
I had this idea in my head that I wanted
to write a book around that. But then the story
that I wanted to weave in that you referred to
as about Lockie Short, who is the husband of one
of the women, possibly the sort of queen bee of
that group. And he is a terrible person. And it's
(49:38):
not really in any doubt that he's a terrible person
from when you first meet him, but the question is
kind of just how terrible and also what you're willing
to put up with both in terms of your own
in terms of for Liss the protagonist, I guess in
terms of her own relationship with him, what you can
turn a blind eye to and what you can't, and
(49:59):
what you can feel your in control of them what
you can't. But also within that friend group is how
you know, we're very interested in female friendships, and for
good reason. But what are the limitations? You know, what
are you willing to again turn a blind eye to
within your friendship group? So I really wanted to write
about all that, So I kind of put those two
(50:19):
ideas together and the plot hopefully it goes back for
years that they've been camping previously, but also goes through
this one long weekend where a lot of stuff happens.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
It sure does. It's a same friendship is not a
mess of camper and I think you've captured camping so
well in this and this thing. I don't think she
even will be. I don't think you're going to come
camping with me.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Here's the thing. I don't mind going tramping. I don't
mind not showering, sleeping in doc hats, I don't mind
roughing it for a few days. But when it comes
to relaxing and being on holiday, I just do it
better with the bed, my own toilet and shot and
a dick cheer.
Speaker 3 (51:00):
You know. I just that's just me and I'm going
to point.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
Yeah, I look, I've done some camping and things, but
I just, yeah, they just know what maybe suits me,
and I'm at an age where I'm just gonna go
with it.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
I'm not a huge camp but this is the only
time of year that I go camp or maybe one
other time. But Brent, my partner, is a big outdoors guy,
and he would go camping heaps more. But it's just
it's just such fun to do it in this group environment.
Every year, you know, somebody's got all the kit, somebody
me forgets everything always and just ends up borrowing everybody
(51:34):
else's things. It's been so interesting. We went at Easter
and our kids are all teenagers now, and it's a
very different it's a very different game because now we
all want to go to bed at nine o'clock, you know,
and then we're like listening out for what the hell
they're up to, or as it used to be, we'd
try and get them down so we could go and
drink red wine around the fire or whatever. Like it's
(51:57):
it's it's fun.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
Oh, unlike the book. I hope that you go camping
many many years into the future with no nasty partners.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
Well that's you didn't write about the people that you
normally kept with people. No, I'm never going to with
you again.
Speaker 3 (52:12):
As you can imagine, they were my mother's group friends
were very keen to read the book, and I just
got the copies when we went away at Easter, so
I gave them all a copy. They were scanning it like.
I was like, this is what you're as a fiction author.
Your friends always think you're writing about them, and you
always have to say to them, I promise it's not you.
I promise it's not you, and no one ever really
(52:34):
believes you. But none of my mother's group friends are
in that book. Thank god.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
Oh that's really good. I wish you all a success
for that book. It's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (52:45):
Holly Wayne right, thank you very much for your time today.
We appreciate it. Thank you for all the conversations you
have helping us see the positive side to these wonderful
mid years.
Speaker 3 (52:57):
Thank you so much for having me I have absolutely
and thank you for putting all this actual expert information
out there.
Speaker 1 (53:06):
Well, we hope it's helped a couple of people anyway.
All good, Thanks so much, Holly.
Speaker 3 (53:11):
Lovely to meet you.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
So exciting to end season four with hollywayen Wright, wasn't
it was?
Speaker 1 (53:23):
I'd been looking forward to speaking with her for some time,
and actually, as it's transpired, with her being so busy,
having her now was about the perfect timing, I think.
From you know, we've had a really interesting season. We've
gone quite deep philosophically at times, you know, highs and lows,
but I don't know, it was just a nice, well
(53:45):
rounded conversation with another midlife woman.
Speaker 2 (53:48):
What episodes have resonated with you or had an impact
on you? Well?
Speaker 1 (53:54):
As usual, I don't like to it's not favorites per se,
but ones that have really sunken and Oliver because I
think I read this book about three times before we
spoke to him, So if there hasn't hadn't gone, and
I would have been in trouble. And Kathy the running
because it's just reminded me how much I love it. Now.
(54:14):
You know, Francisca and I have been walking a lot,
partly because of an injury to her knee, and now
she's just going off. You go go Run, because you
could see how inspired I was by my podcast What
About You Friendiskin.
Speaker 2 (54:29):
We started with Lara Bryden and she had released a
book called The Metabolism Reset, A science based guide for
Women on balancing insulin, losing weight, and improving health. That
was the title of the book and I picked that
up over summer and that was just an absolutely brilliant
start for me. The beginning was, yeah, look, the book
is really dense. There was so much and we spoke
(54:51):
to you know, Lara in the podcast, but we kind
of only just touched on on the basics really, and
I still don't know whether to what extent I have
a metabolic dysfunction, but I know that the amount of
sugar and alcohol and the foods and things that I
was eating, and the lack of consistency around my exercise,
and that the impact that was having on all other
(55:12):
aspects of my life. I knew that I needed to
make a change and she just has inspired me to
do that. And you know, we're three months down and
I'm happy to say that, you know, all those things
have improved. I've been to the doctor recently and who
was you know, a little taken back that the scales
had gone down and my blood pressure was down, and
was really nice to get that kind of validation to
(55:34):
the work I've been doing. Here's the thing, the whole
idea of so what I've been doing is sheltering, and
I love this term. Sheltering from alcohol, sugar and ultra
processed food. Doesn't mean I don't have those things. I
still do. I still have a couple of glasses of
wine a week, just not every night. The sugar has
been a fascinating thing to knock out of my life.
But I'm still eating fruit and have the occasional treating.
(55:56):
My goodness, did I go to town over Easter with
east eggs? My body is now not craving those foods.
So when I have a bit of a treat and
having an any time, I then go back to craving
the good foods that I'm putting in. And I am
noticing a difference across the board. So that has actually
been massive. I think it's probably going to take me
a year to get to where I want to be,
as you know, as lovely as it is seeing the
(56:17):
weight come off and things like that, it's going to
take time. But it's all totally sustainable like I don't.
I don't go hungry, and I don't feel like I
have made changes that are really hard to keep the
actually becoming very natural now and I don't have that
problem with satiety like I eat and I'm full, and
(56:37):
then I get hungry again, like proper hunger just before
lunch or dinner, and I eat again and I'm full.
I don't have this constant feeling that I can't get full.
So that's been huge for me, you know, and it's
going to be an ongoing process, but that was absolutely massive. Look,
I think the other episode that I found really special
was the grief episode with Dr Denise Quinlan, and that
(56:58):
is because I think she's an extraordinary woman and I
a little bit like what Holly was saying. I was
a bit worried that this could be a topic which
is a bit triggering for people or not the right time.
And yet I know people who've listened to it very
soon after losing someone and have found great comfort and
reassurance in it. And I think that's because of Denise
and just how extraordinary she was and the information she
(57:20):
had and the help that she got.
Speaker 1 (57:22):
That was what So my eighty five year old stepmother
lost her husband when she was only maybe forty even
maybe younger, with four children, and she listened to that.
At eighty five, she felt compelled to bring her colleagues
from thirty forty years previous to thank them for being
so incredible to her when she returned to work after
(57:42):
the loss of her husband. It was quite profound. And
for me, having lost my mother at thirteen, it was
suddenly this acceptance that I'm fifty three and I can
still feel sad about that. That's actually fine. I can
still feel sad that she didn't meet a grandchildren. I
can still wax and wayne and and not put any
(58:03):
kind of full stop on how you feel about it.
Speaker 2 (58:05):
We do these episodes because we hope that somewhere amongst
them there'll be a gym that helps people. Right, That's
why we do them. We want to help people. And
we just got the most incredible feedback on that episode.
And look, I just want to say thank you to
all our guests this season. Everyone is so incredibly generous
with their time and their knowledge and what they you know,
what they share with us. I also love Lisa Matson,
(58:27):
who was our makeup artist. She just gave us so
much information and look the one thing she and she
wanted to keep going, but we ran out of time.
But when she left, she said to us, I didn't
get around talking about colors, and I want, you know,
middle aged women to know that the burgundy and purples
are good on the eye. And can I just say
that's what I've gone on to day noise.
Speaker 1 (58:43):
Well, I'm loving.
Speaker 2 (58:45):
I'm just sharing that last bit of information.
Speaker 1 (58:47):
Yeah, that was actually beautiful. Also the blush. The blush
was such a good little pisitive advice and cleaning your
brushes and sponges. Look, you know, talking and listening has
as a privilege and we are really really lucky that
we are. We're heard and listened to, and we hope
that we also do that for our guests and make
(59:10):
sure that we are conveying their lessons to us and
New Francisca. That's beautiful. You've always said as a good student,
but look at you with Lara.
Speaker 2 (59:17):
Well, finally season four folks come through.
Speaker 1 (59:23):
Thank you so much for joining us on our New
Zealand Herald podcast series The Little Things. Yes, this is
our last episode for season four. It has been awesome
having you along for the ride. Hey, Please feel free
to share these podcasts with women in your lives, and
if you haven't already, feel free to check out seasons
one to three as well. You can follow this podcast
on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and for
(59:44):
more on this and other topics. Here to endzed Herald
dot co dot NZED and.
Speaker 2 (59:49):
Hopefully we'll catch you next time on the Little Things.
Take care, Bye bye
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