March 14, 2025 • 44 mins
This year Francesca and Louise have both sent a child off to university, and it has got them thinking about the empty nest and how to cope. To discuss, Newstalk ZB host Kerre Woodham joins them to get her insights into watching her daughter leave home, leave the country, and raise a family - and why your kids leaving home isn't the end of the world.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
I'm Francesca Rudkin and I'm Louise Area. And this is
season four of our New Zealand Herald podcast The Little.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Things, a podcast where we have common sense conversations about
women's well being at all ages and stages. And today
we're going to talk about a stage that most parents
go through at some point, dealing with the empty or
emptying nest. Now, at this time the year, parents are
saying goodbye to their teenagers. And I think it'd be
fair to say to we's they're all dealing.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
With it differently. Well, if you or I are any example,
we've dealt with it differently ourselves. But yeah, leaving home
as a ride of passage for both the parents and
the child, and it comes at different times. It might
be like it might be earlier, it might be boarding school,
it might be tertiary education. They could just go on
their ioe or leave home for a job.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Or finally maybe finally appearance dis comps enough, yeah to go.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
And I mean I didn't leave home until quite late.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
I was.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Probably about twenty.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Yeah, but my fist, why would you exactly? That's what
I said to my kids. But anyway, look, I mean
it is something they will do, and it is a
universal experience. But we should, in my opinion, we should
be careful what we wish for because eventually it just
feels like this child sized gap at the dining table,
and it comes around faster than I'd like, But does it,
(01:23):
Because doesn't it feel like it'd spend a long seventeen
or eighteen years.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I mean that might just be me, but I love
it because you say that all the time and I'm
looking at you going, I don't know, Lou, it feels
like been parenting for a while. I feel like it
comes at the perfect stage. It's like the perfect I
remember when the kids went to Kendy Well, the kids
went to school. You went, oh, someone's really thought about this.
Three is a good time for you to go after
Kenny five. It's a good time for you to go
(01:48):
off to school.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
That's true. I don't feel like, you know, everybody wants you.
When you have children, it goes fast, right and then
and then there is that really busy, busy, busy baby
period and I don't know if is a kasmin gap
and then they're gone. That was yeah, maybe I'm.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Just a bit more sentiarty, but you've had to leave
now and Ted has just finished university. Congratulations to the graduate.
It's very exciting.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
You're excited.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Your daughter May is just starting at the University of Canterbury.
How would their departures well, you know, you know franchise gap. Well,
I might share it with our audience.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Well and my kids. No, I have often wonder if
I have a bit of a weird reaction to the
kids leaving, because I get sad and then I get angry,
like really quite cross. And I did some research into
this because I was quite baffled, like, there's this a
normal reaction, What's wrong with me? But it is a
normal reaction. I mean, I'm sure less than fifty percent probably,
(02:45):
But it's to do with a sadness and a lack
of control because my kids are becoming more independent and
so yeah, it's quite an admission, isn't it. I am
an angry mother when it comes to my kids leaving
the nest.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
That is interesting.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Yeah, I wouldn't have thought.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I mean I wouldn't you know, we need being like
a helicopter parent or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
That well, I would be compared to my parents' standards,
but maybe not today's standards. But what I would say
is I'm.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Just thinking of the control aspect you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, totally. And I think it's because
I get snotty when people say, well, they're eighteen now,
they're adults, because Francesca, they're not. Are they not?
Speaker 4 (03:23):
Really?
Speaker 1 (03:24):
We're still paying for them, We're still emotionally supporting them.
I mean, this isn't all cases. I'm talking personally, and
so I'm a bit like they get all the benefits
of their independence. I'm still doing all the all the
hard work. And I think that's where the irritation sets that.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Actually, when you say control, it's more just it's not
trying to control their lives. It's just knowing that things
are sorted and done, almost, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Well, there's a lot of things that you're doing, isn't there?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Would that be fair to say it's not so much
that you want to direct them and tell them what
to do all the time and control their lives and
you know, scenes are and things like that. So when
you say that word, it kind of comes with quite
a lot of connotations. Yeah, but actually what you're saying, well,
I think what you're sort of implying when you say,
you know you're losing that control is just knowing that
everything's sorted and everything's done and everything, and you've kind
(04:12):
of got to give it up to them.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Yeah, that I'm not seeing them face to face to
check on their daily well being. That does sound like,
doesn't it. I think you're being very honest about that.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I think it's very stute of you as well to
kind of work out that those are the how you're
feeling about it. I mean, I don't think it's straightforward
for anybody. I think a lot of parents are surprised
by how this moment feels. My partner was kind of,
you know, mourning the loss of our first child leaving.
He's like, I'm going to be so sad. This is
going to be so sad. And he took our son
down to university and settled him in at the beginning
(04:43):
of February and came home and went, oh, I'm fine.
He found the whole thing of dropping him off really
emotional and walking around the university again and reminiscing about
his own time, and he was really emotional.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
By the time he got back home to Auckland.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
He's kind of said, but like me, yeah, yeah, And
there are times we're thinking about him all the time
and love him dearly, but actually we're surprised at the
moment that we're kind of okay.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Look, and I think you're right. It does come at
the right time for different people, and you know when
they're really really ready, And it might depend a little
bit on Oscar's enthusiasm and how excited he was to go. Absolutely,
this is a child who's feeling really apprehensive at that.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Absolutely, so this was his dream, It all worked out,
he worked really hard for it, it all fell into place,
so we were thrilled for him. So he was so
excited to go, So that makes it easier for me
to be excited about it as opposed to sort of
focusing on the sad part. I know about you, but
I wonder too whether we've been preparing for it for
a little while, and maybe more so than our partners
(05:48):
have or the dads have, because you know, it felt
like for six months we were organizing university applications, we
were organizing hall applications, we were getting study links sorted,
you know, get your full license, do this, get your vaccinations,
Like there was a lot I felt like as much
as Oscar did it all himself. There was a lot
of kind of preparing or preparation for him to leave.
(06:11):
It wasn't like it hit me as a shock. I
felt like we've been working towards it for quite a while.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Are you suggesting, Francisca, that as the woman in the household,
you took a bit of that mental load.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
I might have been holding on to a bit of
mental load there anyone I've spoken to, whether their child's
going to union, whether they're going over to the States,
or whether and are we it will more than likely
I'm making generalization here, be maybe the woman who is
driving it or assessing with all of that stuff. And
I think I also, I'd like to think this was
slightly mature of me. That was, but I was also
(06:42):
aware that our relationship needs to go to another level
now and I need to accept that he's an independent
young man and that we're going to be Our relationship
is going to be on a slightly different level, and
I think it's going to be better if he left. Look,
I'm going to be honest. I love him so so
(07:05):
much and I do miss him, and I have had
a couple of tiny moments, like cleaning out after I
finally cleaned out his bedroom, which I thought, you know,
was his job to do. And I cleaned that out,
and I looked and I went, oh, yeah, he has gone.
And I have had little moments, but I am. I
am sort of all good about this. But I didn't
think myself, this is a very expensive way to grow up,
and there's a very expensive, privileged way to grow up.
(07:26):
But I do believe that the relationship will kind of
go to another level. And do you know what, I'm
taking that whole chestnut that you do as a parent,
that whole you know, if your kid is unhappy, the
parent's unhappy. If your kids fine, you're fine. That's the
attitude taking. At the moment, he is fine, he is
living the dream. So I'm not going to worry because
I know there's going to be ups and downs stirt
the year. I know there will be hurdles and things
(07:47):
that come along.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Will worry when there's something, so I will.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Worry when there's something to worry about. You mentioned the
sadness and the anger. Were you expecting to feel like
that and was it different the second time around?
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Well, yeah, so the first time around, my son was
a bit more super enthusiastic and super goal oriented and
absolutely knew one hundred percent why he was going what
he was going for, and he was also going with
his girlfriend and mates. So he kind of, you know,
shut the door and did a little back and I
(08:20):
think that's where the little seed of irritation grew. It's like,
wait a minute, you haven't got to this point without
without us. And you know, it wasn't that I expect
him to be gushy with gratitude. It was just more that, oh,
just like that. Okay, So yeah, no worries worth The
second one less one hundred percent focused on what it
was that she wants to do, still lots of and
(08:42):
we've always encouraged her. She's a bright girl. We've always
encouraged her to think of lots of options, and now
I'm starting to think perhaps we should have, you know,
pushed it towards a certain goal. So there was a
little bit of hesitation on both about parts of is
this the one hundred percent the right thing to be doing?
And then you know, the dog died.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
Oh you had a bad week.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
I died like a few days before she left, So
there was a lot of there was a bad additional
gree in the family. So it just got's gone about
as much as I expected to that afterpart the I
didn't go with her, as you know, my son was
already down there, my sister was down there. They said
little and it went as it expected. But I will
say the three of us left me, my husband and
(09:19):
my sixteen year old are settling in nicely. We make
a cute little team. We should make a cute little tea.
Not that we don't mess terribly and her can't misses
her terribly, but we're good. Yeah, we're all right.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
That's good. I'm pleased to hear.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
No no big angsty arguments over the phone with the
second one.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Okay, well, they're all different, aren't they. I've got a
bit of a theory though about mums and sons, and
I don't know if you'd agree with this, but I
think that I struggled more with the loss. And you'll
remember this, with the loss of my gorgeous young boy.
When puberty hit, you know that stage when they go
from sort of they're so cuddly and overly enthusiastic about
(09:58):
everything and they're communicative, and they turn into grunters who
can't remember why they crossed the room, and you remember
just saying to here, I just I don't, I can't.
Who is this child that I can't They don't communicate
and I can't talk to them, and where is this
boy gone? And everything? And you said to me, it's okay,
he'll be back a couple of years later.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
If finally, Oh, you were right. It was a little
longer than I thought.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
But I wonder whether that it was almost like grief.
I had that.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
For that goal experience.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
When you know that that mothers have when their sons
around thirteen is a bit of an opportunity for them
to slowly start preparing to let their boys go at eighteen.
It's just a theory, but I just, oh, I like
that theory.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
And I think there is a term of individuating. If
you don't individuate from your family, I think we probably
can all think of people we've known who have failed
to launch, or even ourselves sometimes failed to launch. But
they have to unless there's some reason that they can't.
They do need to individuate from their family. And so
that's where I settle down and rationalize and sit in
(11:04):
that feeling and go, oh, this is okay for me
to feel angry, but it's not okay for me to
put it on them. This is just life actually.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
But look, we still both have one at home. I
think when the final child leaves, that'll hit me, you know,
oh my gosh, my kids have their own lives. But
you know, in the meantime, it's all good.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Well, look we are very still, very much in the
thick of this Epnionese phase, and so you know, we
thought we could do some perspective, didn't we. So we
decided we'd talk to someone who's been through it all,
dealt with her daughter living overseas and it's gone full
circle to be back living with her daughter and grandchildren.
So today we have also columnists and host of news
Talk zb's Mornings, Carrie Wouldham. Welcome, Carrie Hi.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Carrie Hi team, thank you very much for being with us.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
My pleasure.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Can you I was gonna say, can you remember, but
that implies that it was a long time ago.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
It was kind of a long time ago.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
I did Kate leave home.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
She lived when she was eighteen, so that was, you know,
eighteen years ago, and yeah, so left she was still
in the same city, but she left to go flatting
when she went to Uni.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
And how did you cope with that?
Speaker 3 (12:10):
It was okay because I knew she was in the
same city, but I anticipated feeling a sense of loss
because I loved having the girls and the guys coming
around and getting ready to go out for their big nights.
And they were so gorgeous and so much fun. And
I love the fact that they'd come around on the
weekend for pool parties and I'd learn new music from them,
(12:33):
and they were just vibrant and young and gorgeous and
just delightful to be around, interesting different perspectives. And then
she was gone, and they were gone, and they were gone,
because you don't just lose your daughter, you lose that
whole company of friends. They're gorgeous, young people, and you're
(12:54):
left with the man who loves to watch television and
put phones on his ears and watch television. And then
there was me.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Yeah, yeah, I didn't think about the friends that we
were losing to.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
No, No, I'm sorry to enter. It's funny you say that,
because whenever I do talk to my son, it's only
been a month, but I'm always asking about everybody else
as well, and how so and so has And you
can't get any information.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
They are just divine young people to be around. And
you know, a couple of Kate's friends and my son
and laws friends who are married now met on my
fiftieth birthday, you know, well, not met, they knew each other,
but they got together on my fiftieth birthday, which is
just lovely, you know. So that should give you hope
that they do still stay in your lives.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
So did you react the way you thought you would
or was there anything that kind of surprised you or
took you by surprise.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
No. I knew that I'd miss Kate terribly and her
friends when she was gone, because she was my proxy
going out person because my then husband really didn't like
going out. Why would I want to go out and close?
I don't want to go to meet people I don't
want to meet to talk about things I'm not interested in,
which was a compelling point, you know. So Kate would
(14:06):
come with me and she was my really call plus one,
So I knew I was losing that when she left.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Were you working?
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (14:15):
God, yes, you were, always you always were.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
I've worked since I was.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Seven, Yeen.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Does that make a difference? Do you think having something
else in your life hugely saying goodbye hugely, Like if.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
My work had been at home, if my job was
to be a homemaker, which I think is a really
important job, I would be devastated because what is your purpose?
What is your reason? When that reason has left you,
abandoned you.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
I guess that, you know, you'd hope perhaps that people
for whom that has been their primary role have hopefully
given that some thought and made sure they've got other
things in their life for when it comes.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Otherwise it's a big wrench.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
It's a big wrench.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Yeah, yeah, and hopefully they have I mean most most
men and women who are homemakers. That's not just it.
You know, they do have groups and friendship groups and
interest groups. But yes, I imagine it would be a
big wrench. But I suppose mercifully the year that she
(15:16):
was the first year that she went flatting, I'd been
asked to run my first marathon, and i'd also, you know,
so that that took a lot of time and a
lot of training and was a great distraction for me.
So then I ran the Aukland Marathon. Then I was
asked to write a book about that, and then I
ran the New York marathon, and then I became a
(15:39):
spokesperson for paper Plus, which involved going around the country
hosting author evenings, which took up enormous amount of time
and was enormous amounts of fun. And so that filled.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
The time running marathons and writing books like Carrie. That's
quite that, you know, you think about it quite an.
Speaker 4 (15:55):
Extreme rame with people to deal with it, but.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
A lot of I am extreme way extraorin.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Actually that's great because you actually recognize I do have
my time back. I can make decisions about what I
do with my time.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yes, and that's a good thing. Yeah, it is, And
you can fill it in a really purposeful way. Mine
was accidental. You know. If somebody had said the way
you'll fill time when Kate leaves home, mister on marathons,
I would have you know, I wouldn't have thought that
was a viable option, shall we say? But it does
mean that you can fill your life in a purposeful
(16:28):
way and do things perhaps that you never imagined you
might be able to.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
I also think if all of our children are different
and they're all ready to leave at different times, there
are some that just stay too long, you know, and
they need to be booted out. But everyone's kind of
ready to go when they're ready to go. But I
think when they do go, you should pack yourself on
the back as a parent, because actually, if you've raised
(16:54):
a kid to be independent and to be brave enough
to gout me independent, you've done your job, you know,
so you should we should actually be celebrating it as
a sign of this is awesome, This is what you're
supposed to do. This is a sign that you know.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Well, I mean, when did you leave home?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
I stayed at home for my first year of UNI
because I went to UNI in the same city, yeah,
maybe the second or third year.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
And sensibly having come fresh out of a Catholic boarding school,
my mum and dad put me with an Irish Catholic
aunt and her family in Wellington because I would have
been a disaster if I'd stayed in a flat or
in student accommodation. You know, I had naive Catholic girl
to get heard across my forehead. Please take me anybody, now,
(17:37):
you know, it was just I would have been a disaster,
so I was insulated, awe. But then I was off
and away, from the age of seventeen eighteen around the country.
Doing you know, working in Ready in New Zealand and
far flung spaces, and you know, eighteen I think is
about right. But for me, and it was for Kate too,
(17:57):
at least.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
She was in the same city school in seventh four
to two, so I had my parents would have over sea,
so we'd had time apart and things like that, and
I did have some independence.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
I felt like my son was a mere fetus, as
you know, I think I said to you, it feels
like someone's ripped him from my work. He was seventeen.
I think it was also additional grief for the idea
that he was leaving his siblings behind. And they were
quite young, so I mean, no, I don't know how
rold would head being thirteen, and it just seemed like, oh,
you haven't had enough time with them. Yeah, but they
(18:28):
were fine. It was me. It was me, part of
project Grief on Grief. But you know, he's twenty one
now and he may have had a job opportunity here
and there was the idea that he might come home
and the youngest son now who's sixteen, went oh bloody, hell,
I hope not. You know, I've just got this pad
to myself.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
So actually and they've got a great relationship.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Do The thing that I'm really grateful for is that
I wasn't going through menopause at the same time as
Kate was leaving home, because that would be a double whammy.
That would be horrific.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
It's a joking. Our family. My daughter just think it's hilarious.
She's just like, well, that's what happens when you go
through perimenopause, and I'm a puberty mum. It's just it's dynamite.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Oh well, see, I was. I'm quite grateful I was
out of the blocks quite young because I just turned
twenty four when Kate was born, So when she left home,
I donate I think it's forty one or forty two,
and then it was years before bloody menopause, which is
the most ridiculous form of production. I mean, it's just inefficient, you.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Know it is.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
It least started me have to deal with that, but
we actually the emotional kind of anguish that you have
going through menopause, dealing with the fact that you're then
also losing a child.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
And also it might be retrospective because as you're saying that,
I'm thinking, oh, yeah, that probably was when I was
in the thick of it when he left four years
or three years later, got my head around all of that,
and it's a lot more stable.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
I think you have to be really gentle with yourself,
you know. And I remember Mum saying that she used
to walk past my bedroom and cry because it was
so neat.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
And isn't that what your dad?
Speaker 3 (19:59):
What are you? What are bloody doing? You know she's
she's loving where she is.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
I why are you bloody crying? I haven't had many moments,
but the one I did have was after I'd cleaned
up Oscar's room and they went, oh, yeah, he has gone,
he has he's going to stay this and then the
cat moved one. It's hilarious, but you're absolutely right. I think,
of course, we're all having our babies later, and what
we're not thinking about is there's just going to be
cat hormonal carnage at the same time. I mean, I
(20:26):
do feel for the boys in our house at times.
You know, you've got you've got two women at different
ends of the spectrum going through sort.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Of a that's actually that's why you can't really don't
have an I probably didn't realize in that first year
when my oldest sound left home that my husband was
grieving too. Yes, his mate particularly, they had rugby in common,
and he'd be the one, he will be the one
that would entertain very long conversations about rugby. And so
(20:53):
it was like, Dad, we're not interested, you know, and
it's it was.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
But there's a reason why a lot of people go
do lowly, you know. I think the men have their
meno Porsche, you know, which is when they trade in
the sensible family sedan in the form of the wife
and the mother of their children, for the snazzy top
down red sports car which is the much younger girl
because they need to validate themselves too, you.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Know that me, my husband coming for the live the car,
all the women, So.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Yeah, you know, it's that kind of well, this is it,
you know, now what because the really important phase of
your life has come to an end of raising a
beautiful adult, you know. And now what did Kate have
any wobbles, No, none, whatsoever, although she did get married
(21:40):
before she had graduated law school. So yeah, that she
was married very young and had very clear ideas about
how her family wanted to look, which will no resemblance
to how she had been raised.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
That's interesting. We hate you the most her leaving home
or deciding to get married.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Oh, her leaving home. I was thrilled for her. But
do you know that the most amazing sense of release
when your child finds your adult child finds a partner
that you think is worthy of them. You know that
that is loved and supported and nurtured in a way
that you you had done and that you dream that
(22:20):
they will get. Because then you really do feel your
jobs done. Then you know from now on it's just
you know, the the chocolate flakes on top of the cherry,
on top of the cake, because you know, I can
leave this planet quite happily now knowing that everybody I
love is safe.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Gosh, that's something, isn't it. I must I agree with you.
My son had quite a long term relationship and his
teens and although maybe you could say that wasn't ideal,
watching him be loved and really beautifully loved was did
make me feel like, oh, we've done something else right.
It's a tick in the box of having a healthy
being able to be capable of having a healthy relationship.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
So that's something to look forward to, it is, Carrie,
if Kate had wobbled or if she was struggling, and
I'm sure there were times that she called with some
issues or spoke to things. How do you deal with that, Because,
as we've already said, all our kids are different. They
head off on these adventures. Some it all goes swimmingly.
You know, Oscar's gone to Canterbury with a girlfriend and
(23:22):
his best mates and he's in heaven right, But that's
not the same for everybody. So how do you from
afar support without trying to control.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
The caring, not controlling, caring, not controlling. I don't know.
Because she was in Auckland. If she needed me, she'd
swing by. We used to go on holiday together. Sometimes
she'd come with me on the marathon tours when I
went to France and parrisonlike, wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
You Yeah, I think holidays are really really important.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
Holidays together are great. But I just knew it was
her time, you know, for her to be her, for
her to because I'd had that time. I'd had that time,
and I didn't necessarily want to see her grow up
and make mistakes under my watch. I don't want to
see her drunk, you know, that's for her friends to
(24:19):
pick her up and sort her out. I didn't, you know,
I don't think it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
I don't. I don't want to see her make mistakes
like I thought of myself, and I thought, I don't
want to see myself like that. I don't want my
mother to see it.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
I've spoken to a few people in preparation for this,
and a couple of tuesdays ago, I was pretty close
to booking a flight down to christ Jurch and literally
a woman came up to me who I've been talking
about about the kids leaving and all that, and she said,
take your finger off that button. No, you don't need
(24:55):
to go. It was And then I talked to a
few other people and they all said, oh, you've all
had that lingering moment where you just look up. Can
I get a flight today? How much is it going
to cost me? Because your child's just merely said, oh,
I'm feeling a bit wobbly today. You know, at the
end of the day, they're fine.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
I remember Kate saying to me one day she might
have even been married by them, but then she was
married at twenty one, but she said to me, sometimes
I just want to talk to you. I don't want
you to fix it. I just want you to I
just want to talk and if load, I don't want
you to, right, Okay, Well we don't lah.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
You know, you think we'd have learned that without them
having to tell us, wouldn't you? But we I guess
we don't. That caring buttons pretty.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
Hard to kill the control them.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yes, the controlling fixing button is quite hard to turn off.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
But I mean, how do you stand by and watch
somebody in pain, you know, if they're letting out a
psychic graw. I don't blame you for wanting to get done,
but I can't.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Remember my partner coming home from work once instead of
and he was just any to have event and everything,
and I'd try and offer some sage advice.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
So can you just look to me one and he went,
I just want a vent. I don't need a pep talk.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
I know all that, but he was right, And it's
a bit the same, really, what you're talking about with
these kids, They just want to know that there's some
where they can go where they're not going to be judged.
They can just be heard and listen to it and
get it all out. Yeah, because there is a subtle
shift in the relationship when they leave, they've headed out
into the world. We want to treat them like young adults,
aware of the fact they've got a lot to learn,
a lot of experiences to go through and things and
(26:16):
you can't fix everything. No, So I'm being really conscious
at the moment of you know, I mean, I would
love to just be able to ring my boy and go, hey,
have you sorted this? And have you done that? And
are you on top of the UNI work? And have
you got that assignment? And and you can't. No, you
can't just keep going back. You've got to kind of
just go how's your week, I know, and let them
open you know. But they're not good at sharing, so
(26:38):
you just have to open it up. And then you
sort of subtly might say, and how's the work going?
And you're enjoying this and enjoying that. But it's about
stepping back and going actually, it's on you now, my friend.
This is what you want. You want the independence. You're
a younger. Where's going to treat you like a young adult?
Speaker 3 (26:51):
You know? And I'm watching it because I think Kajun
her husband are really good parents, really good parents. They
don't fix things or create things, and like, I really
admire the way they parent, and they don't fix everything
for the kids, you know, they they you know, I've
had to really stop myself from saying be careful, be
careful around the grandchildren because they don't say that. They
(27:13):
let them have a go around. If they fall off
and cry for a bit, then they cry for a
that's life.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah, it's funny. We had a family gather and I
think you guys were there and Tournia fell there and
Ted was home for the holidays, and they were asking
him how things were going on. And I wasn't really listening,
but I did hear this. He said, you know what,
I was on the bones of my ass ealier this year,
and god, it was hard, it was awful and my
heart just went into my stomach. And yeah, well, no,
(27:39):
I would have if you had told me. But he'd
made a conscious decision. I'm not asking this time. I'm
going to do something about this. But he had to
get to rock bottom. But it was interesting because he
didn't tell me. He told them and I only overheard
it later on that night. I said, you know, wish
you told us it was such a struggle, and he goes,
I work through it. It was fine because you'd.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Have fussed tried to fix exactly, and they don't want to.
They want to know that they're capable and strong and able,
and I totally get that. And I think the best
thing Kate and her husband did was to fly to London,
you know, and build a life of their own over there.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
We're going to talk about that in just a moment.
You're listening to The Little Things, and our guest on
the podcast today is the News Talks Here to be
morning's host, Kerrie Would It will be back shortly after
this break.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
This is The Little Things.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
So, Carrie, you mentioned just before your daughter heading overseas,
which is the next step. And I'm sure there's lots
of pearance at the moment dealing with kids heading off
on oe's and things. How did that feel?
Speaker 3 (28:41):
I was really excited for them. I would have probably
felt differently if she'd been going off on her own
to join friends who were already over there, but she
was going with her husband, and I just saw these
two gorgeous young souls, just brave and foolish, and you know,
going off as so many the other Key Wee kids
have done to take on the world. You know, did
(29:04):
you feel the distance though, No, because I knew and
that only comes with having the money in the bank
to be able to do so that I could be
there in twenty four thirty six hours. You know, I
knew I was, and that worked out, Like when jumping
ahead when they had the second baby. Kate was so
pregnant with her with Dora and her husband broke his leg.
(29:29):
She was so hugely pregnant and had a little toddler
and she just rang mom and I was. I was
there in thirty six hours. But that that comes, you know,
I'm well aware that that only comes with the financial
privilege of being able to buy an air ticket and
be there. If I didn't, if I knew I couldn't
be there, or if it was the days of having
to hop on an ocean line or and parp your
(29:50):
way across, you know, that would be quite different if
it was if I was just relying on aerograms.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
How often did you guys, Because communication is a really
interesting thing as well, so we dealing with that not
trying to over communicate.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
You know, you don't get a lot.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Out of a teenage boy. To be honest with you,
they're having a good time and they're having a great time.
So we have a scheduled call every Sundayay and at
a time that suits him. And we just cacked up
on the week that's been in the weak ahead, and
anything else that comes throughout the week is a little extra.
But I'm not trying not to push it. But you've
got you've got your child who's on the other side
of the world with her husband, but now they're having
(30:26):
babies and things like that.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
You know, I was a bit desperate about that, but
I was able to get over and see them. They
were able to get over come back and see me.
There was one ropeie time before the babies were born,
when Kate was working as a nanny and was in
Greece on an island in Greece somewhere, and it all
went pear shaped with a pearents and she was catching
the first flight out but on this resort she couldn't
(30:50):
get off until the morning. So I just stayed up
all night with her on Facebook. And again, how lucky
were we to have that communication, that form of community.
So we opened a bottle of wine and she opened
a bottle of wine and we just you know, sat
through the night, was safely on a pointment.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
I've got a million different ways of keeping in touch.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
It's not that flimsy blue eerogram.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
I don't know so many of those that my mother
sent me when I was on my oh.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Even with now, I mean, we often just seemed a
real or something. You know, every day there'll be some
sort of we played as something, yeah, something to chicken,
but when gosh, I mean, I didn't give my My
parents had nine children between them, so you know, when
I left overseas, I don't know how much they thought
about it, but I didn't really give it much.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Thought at all.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
I didn't give any thought to my parents either.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Trans Siberian Express and went to China for four months
and then Russia for a little bit, and I got
an aerogram with a cutout from the Christ Church priest
and they'd written an article and the title was the
Train of Pain and Death the Trans Siberian Express. So
my mother kindly sent that to me, which she was
very brave like. My mum let me wander around the
(31:58):
world and parts of the world where there had not
been a lot of foreigners before you know, and she
I don't know how she coped with that. But these days,
but that's the thing, you see, we expect proof of life,
that's what you know. And I've had a few parents
say to me, how often are you texting? And how
often should I expect a response? This is for those
of us who've just you know, his first kids gone
and I go. The proof of life is easy. It's
(32:21):
as you say, it's liking a funny video you send them,
or it doesn't have to it doesn't have to be.
They don't have to answer all your calls or answer
all your texts. You just have to accept the fact
they're having a good time and everything's okay.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
And they will be in touch when they need you.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
And even in one family, two kids can be quite different.
We've got friends, but you know, the dad is always
reaching out to one of the doors and she just
like okay, yeah, you know, and the other daughter's full
of gushing news. So it's all very child dependent, isn't it.
I do think again, it comes back to that my
husband was trying to reach my daughter and she just was,
(32:56):
I don't know, ignoring him, And then he sent her
a message and said he if you've blocked me, or
if you want to block me, just let me know,
which he meant jokingly. She ran straight away. Oh, I'm
sorry you were feeling like that, dad. You know, you
don't know what you don't know, but so yours have.
Kate has come back. She came back from the UK.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
Obviously they were always going to come back when the
first child was to start school, so thank god it
was in the middle of the COVID years, so they
came back six months early. And then we ended up
buying a house together. And yeah, from you know, it
was just the way it was. I was on my
own by now, and house prices were insane, so we all, yeah,
(33:39):
we bought a house and we were lucky enough to
find one where I've got two rooms in her kitchen
and a bathroom downstairs, and they've got the upstairs, so
they've got their own separate living space. But it took
a bit of learning because for a while I was
up there like oh it's bad, like when you're eighteen again,
and it's like, no, Mum, push off. There's a reason
we bought, you know, a house with two levels.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Because normally it's when they come back and they inevitably
will come back to save some money. At some point
that you have to put the boundaries around the child
and go, actually, hey.
Speaker 5 (34:07):
Was boundaries around me, because it's like, yes, you've come
back and that's great, but actually you need to fit
in a little bit more now without And if you're working,
what would you do if if your kid comes back,
they've got a job, they want to save some money,
would you still say, yep, but you can pay a
little bit.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
I think So that's the real world, doesn't it. I
mean I say that, I'd like i'd enforce it, Like
I don't. I'm hopeless.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
But if you look at your friends as well who've
had their kids come back, if they did they put
any sort of they go, Okay, that's cool. We'd love
to have your home. I mean, I would say to
my kids, you're always welcome to come home. But I
think at different ages and stages there might be you know,
there might be slightly different.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
But I mean, if you've raised your child, it's just
good manners to contribute towards anywhere you're staying. As one hundred, yeah, Like,
I just can't imagine a world where where Kate wouldn't
offer to pay for something like I know that when
she's borrowed something or you know, it's always delivered straight
back with some flowers and a note, you know, like,
(35:11):
I can't imagine a world where she wouldn't contribute.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
And the poultry one hundred bucks or something I'd probably
make him pay a week is not going to make.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Much difference to his house deposit.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
To be honest with you, no, and they have to
understand that there are going to be expenses and that
it's important that they contribute, so they learn how to budget.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
But gosh and fire that in voice off. I'm just
thinking that the difference from living across the other side
of the world to living upstairs and downstairs, that's pretty significant.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
I think it was more significant for them, the poor things,
because Kate was used to being the mistress of her
own home for a very long time. Then all of
a sudden, you know, she might come home from work
and unfolding the wall. You know. I mean, it's good
because I've picked up the kids and that's great, and
I just it's such a privilege. But you know, I
unfolding the washing. Does she really want me folding her under?
You know, and I check in with her now and
(36:03):
say anytime it's too much, or you just don't want
to look at my face, you know, just send me downstairs.
I'm happy down there.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
And interestingly, you're sort of going full circle. You know,
You've gone through the experience of Kate living home and
living overseas, and now she's come back and you've, as
you say, got this privilege of being so close to
your grandchildren. But they're going to grow up too, Carrie,
I know they're gonna leave.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
It's like you're going through it, you go through your
It's just pure joy. It's one hundred and fifty percent joy.
Because they're not mine. They're not mine to lose. They're
just mine to love, you know. And I just, yeah,
it's quite a different love. I don't feel that possessive love.
I don't like I love the fact that they've got
other grandparents who love them as much as I do.
(36:45):
I don't mind sharing them. It's a completely different love.
You just want as many people in the world to
love these beautiful souls as much as I do.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
How old are the grand children there?
Speaker 3 (36:55):
But will be eight on Monday and Dora's six Top
four I'm.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Got all those fabulous here, I know, and I've had
all these fabulousies with them.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
You know, I was there when we're not there there,
but I was there. I was with them within I
was a week of Bart being born, and the night
Dora was born, I looked after Bart and so I've
got all of these beautiful memories that inform the relationship
with these kids, Like for his birthday, but it was like,
should you and me just go to that Ethiopian restaurant
(37:26):
that we went to for Dad's birthday and you know,
just us? And I'm like, yeah, that'd be fundable. It's
just magical. And I know there are grandparents who don't,
who feel that their parenting is done. But because I
was a single mother for a long time and then
I was working all the time, I never got my
fill of nurturing, I guess, and being a mum. You know,
(37:51):
I never got the chance to do it right, if
you know what I mean, because I couldn't pick Kate.
Sometimes I could pick Kate up from school, but other times.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
I was I don't think there is a right way
to do it, you know, I wouldn't let that go.
I think we all do the best that we can do.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
That we have just pure joy the way everybody and
to take them to like I love taking them to
swimming practice and watching every stroke. I'm not on my phone.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Okay, you know that's brilliant, you know, because I did
not watch.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
Don't because you've got a thousand things to do. You know,
you're a mum and you've got a million things to do, and.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
You're not as present. Perhaps no, no, no, you're not.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
As present because you've got a thousand things to do
in terms of running the household and looking after the
kids and trying to jack up the next thing. Whereas
for me, I don't. I've got so much more time.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
So the crazy outcome of this podcast, I think is
that I quite like my kids to have babies.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Wait wait, wait, you're jump too far.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Left.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
Okay, you left time.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Now how about a baby.
Speaker 4 (38:54):
Kit?
Speaker 3 (38:55):
And and partner told Tom and I would like to
take you out to dinner. And I'm like, oh, oh,
she's having a baby. Oh my goodness, Oh to be wonderful. No,
they can move back in and I'll do the front room,
and she can keep going to university until the baby's
born in them. So I had it all planned. We
went to dinner. Mum, Tom, yes, yes, well we're going
(39:19):
to get married married. Are you pregnant? And didn't I
tell you? She would say that, did I not tell
you you are? You're not gonna have a baby, No, Mum.
I just thought somebody should do things the right way
around once.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Like having just done a twenty first album for my
oldest child, I really it was such a privilege and
honor to do it because I had to look through
all those photos and see the grandparents' influence on him,
and it's fifty percent of how he's been raised as
the grandparents, you know, really not in terms of time,
but in terms of their influence and the love. They're pure,
(39:55):
unadulterate and it's just love.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
It's you know. When I look at those children, it's
that hard emoji that's you know, and there's just clouds
of hearts coming out, and they're both so different. There's
so much fun and it allows you to be present
and allows you to enjoy every moment and not sweat
the small stuff. And you know, I have them for
(40:18):
a week during the school holidays, and it's such a privilege,
such a privilege.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
We've already cycled through life, haven't we have?
Speaker 2 (40:25):
We still carry as always love your sage advice, but
also thank you for sharing with us because I think
you know we're all. I feel very positive about all
this now. There's lots of wonderful things to look forward
to in different stages and phases.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
And we could have sat here and just kind of
reminisced about everything we've lost rather than what we're looking at.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
And honestly, I've been to three weddings of their friends,
so you don't lose the friends either. You know, they
are still part of your life. And I again that
such a privilege to be involved.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
And look, there are a lot of silver linings, from
the lack of dishes to the lack of washing, into
the lack of you.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Know, that'sing you can't hide from. When that person leaves,
there's no you know you wondered who who was the
messy one?
Speaker 2 (41:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Yeah, we know who we know now.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Carrie, thank you so much, absolute put.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
So, Francisca. That was really interesting and as I say,
we did kind of cycle through the life cycle of
it there, even though Carrie is still a very young woman.
What did you what do you make of it all?
Speaker 2 (41:28):
I think it's just really reassuring life goes on. You're
going to be okay, your kids are going to be okay.
There's lots of different, exciting new stages ahead for both
child and parent, and I think you just have to
manage those little and accept that there will be moments
(41:48):
of you know, sadness, or moments when things aren't you know,
going well, and maybe you might need your child more
than they need you. But actually that's kind of just
life and it's okay.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Oh absolutely. And I think you know, when we were
talking at some point about how you leave them at
the kindergarten and wave goodbye, and then you leave them
at the first day of primary school and then again
the first day of high school. It is it's you
can be sad about how quickly it goes and you
consider in those waves of grief from time to time,
but there's always another tide coming in with something good.
(42:18):
I'm going to be really philosophical.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
It's a huge amount of positives and I think we
sort of talked about those. One there's you know, there's
one less person at the hotel. Yeah, you know, so
there's that side of it too. You know, we should
be celebrating that our kids are brave enough to head
out into the world. That's a really great thing to
head off on that independence and the changing nature of
our relationship. It's it's kind of got to be a
(42:40):
good thing. I just for me personally, it's about remembering
just to step back, not demand that communication that you
want all the time, and checking that they're okay, and
just letting that relationship naturally go to a new level,
not trying to fix and solve everything.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
And that you know that comes more naturally to some
of us than others. But you know, if you are
struggling with that, just just talk to another person who's
been through it, I think is always a good idea,
Like sh'ld be honest.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Yeah, you know how someone said to me other day,
you know, whose kid had just started intermediate, and she said, look,
I'm gonna be really honest with you.
Speaker 4 (43:14):
It's not going well.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
But she says, every time, you know, I ask another
parent how it's going, they go, oh, my kid's loving it.
Everything's great. You know, sometimes we're just it's actually okay
to go. Not a good day, not a good week,
not a good month. You know, just be honest with
each other, because I think we'll find that we're all
sort of sharing the same kind of.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
I spoke to a woman when I said, oh my god,
it so this is a rollercoaster. One day she's okay,
the next day she's feeling really flat. The next day
she's good. And she said, oh, you know, we had
that for four years. It's like fantastic. Okay, Well, yeah, no,
let's just see if we can get a little more
stable kind of situation going on. But isn't it the
same for all of us when we do something new. Yeah,
(43:50):
and we know that we've been able to do it.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
And look, that's what we want to say. We want
to say if you're listening to this and you've had
someone leave recently or a little while ago, or you know.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
Always going later and he's going later in the year.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
If you're tuning through those kids leaving, we're kind of
all on this together. We're all experiencing the same thing.
So thanks so much for joining us on our new
Zealand Herald podcast series, The Little Things. We hope you
share this podcast with the women in your life so
we can all be reminded it's good times.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Ahead, that's right, and you can follow this podcast on
iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and for more
on this and other topics, here to inset Herald dot
co dot inzet and
Speaker 2 (44:26):
We'll catch you next time on the Little Things
I'm Francesca Rudkin and I'm Louise Area. And this is
season four of our New Zealand Herald podcast The Little.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Things, a podcast where we have common sense conversations about
women's well being at all ages and stages. And today
we're going to talk about a stage that most parents
go through at some point, dealing with the empty or
emptying nest. Now, at this time the year, parents are
saying goodbye to their teenagers. And I think it'd be
fair to say to we's they're all dealing.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
With it differently. Well, if you or I are any example,
we've dealt with it differently ourselves. But yeah, leaving home
as a ride of passage for both the parents and
the child, and it comes at different times. It might
be like it might be earlier, it might be boarding school,
it might be tertiary education. They could just go on
their ioe or leave home for a job.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Or finally maybe finally appearance dis comps enough, yeah to go.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
And I mean I didn't leave home until quite late.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
I was.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Probably about twenty.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Yeah, but my fist, why would you exactly? That's what
I said to my kids. But anyway, look, I mean
it is something they will do, and it is a
universal experience. But we should, in my opinion, we should
be careful what we wish for because eventually it just
feels like this child sized gap at the dining table,
and it comes around faster than I'd like, But does it,
(01:23):
Because doesn't it feel like it'd spend a long seventeen
or eighteen years.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I mean that might just be me, but I love
it because you say that all the time and I'm
looking at you going, I don't know, Lou, it feels
like been parenting for a while. I feel like it
comes at the perfect stage. It's like the perfect I
remember when the kids went to Kendy Well, the kids
went to school. You went, oh, someone's really thought about this.
Three is a good time for you to go after
Kenny five. It's a good time for you to go
(01:48):
off to school.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
That's true. I don't feel like, you know, everybody wants you.
When you have children, it goes fast, right and then
and then there is that really busy, busy, busy baby
period and I don't know if is a kasmin gap
and then they're gone. That was yeah, maybe I'm.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Just a bit more sentiarty, but you've had to leave
now and Ted has just finished university. Congratulations to the graduate.
It's very exciting.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
You're excited.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Your daughter May is just starting at the University of Canterbury.
How would their departures well, you know, you know franchise gap. Well,
I might share it with our audience.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Well and my kids. No, I have often wonder if
I have a bit of a weird reaction to the
kids leaving, because I get sad and then I get angry,
like really quite cross. And I did some research into
this because I was quite baffled, like, there's this a
normal reaction, What's wrong with me? But it is a
normal reaction. I mean, I'm sure less than fifty percent probably,
(02:45):
But it's to do with a sadness and a lack
of control because my kids are becoming more independent and
so yeah, it's quite an admission, isn't it. I am
an angry mother when it comes to my kids leaving
the nest.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
That is interesting.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Yeah, I wouldn't have thought.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I mean I wouldn't you know, we need being like
a helicopter parent or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
That well, I would be compared to my parents' standards,
but maybe not today's standards. But what I would say
is I'm.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Just thinking of the control aspect you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, totally. And I think it's because
I get snotty when people say, well, they're eighteen now,
they're adults, because Francesca, they're not. Are they not?
Speaker 4 (03:23):
Really?
Speaker 1 (03:24):
We're still paying for them, We're still emotionally supporting them.
I mean, this isn't all cases. I'm talking personally, and
so I'm a bit like they get all the benefits
of their independence. I'm still doing all the all the
hard work. And I think that's where the irritation sets that.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Actually, when you say control, it's more just it's not
trying to control their lives. It's just knowing that things
are sorted and done, almost, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Well, there's a lot of things that you're doing, isn't there?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Would that be fair to say it's not so much
that you want to direct them and tell them what
to do all the time and control their lives and
you know, scenes are and things like that. So when
you say that word, it kind of comes with quite
a lot of connotations. Yeah, but actually what you're saying, well,
I think what you're sort of implying when you say,
you know you're losing that control is just knowing that
everything's sorted and everything's done and everything, and you've kind
(04:12):
of got to give it up to them.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Yeah, that I'm not seeing them face to face to
check on their daily well being. That does sound like,
doesn't it. I think you're being very honest about that.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I think it's very stute of you as well to
kind of work out that those are the how you're
feeling about it. I mean, I don't think it's straightforward
for anybody. I think a lot of parents are surprised
by how this moment feels. My partner was kind of,
you know, mourning the loss of our first child leaving.
He's like, I'm going to be so sad. This is
going to be so sad. And he took our son
down to university and settled him in at the beginning
(04:43):
of February and came home and went, oh, I'm fine.
He found the whole thing of dropping him off really
emotional and walking around the university again and reminiscing about
his own time, and he was really emotional.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
By the time he got back home to Auckland.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
He's kind of said, but like me, yeah, yeah, And
there are times we're thinking about him all the time
and love him dearly, but actually we're surprised at the
moment that we're kind of okay.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Look, and I think you're right. It does come at
the right time for different people, and you know when
they're really really ready, And it might depend a little
bit on Oscar's enthusiasm and how excited he was to go. Absolutely,
this is a child who's feeling really apprehensive at that.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Absolutely, so this was his dream, It all worked out,
he worked really hard for it, it all fell into place,
so we were thrilled for him. So he was so
excited to go, So that makes it easier for me
to be excited about it as opposed to sort of
focusing on the sad part. I know about you, but
I wonder too whether we've been preparing for it for
a little while, and maybe more so than our partners
(05:48):
have or the dads have, because you know, it felt
like for six months we were organizing university applications, we
were organizing hall applications, we were getting study links sorted,
you know, get your full license, do this, get your vaccinations,
Like there was a lot I felt like as much
as Oscar did it all himself. There was a lot
of kind of preparing or preparation for him to leave.
(06:11):
It wasn't like it hit me as a shock. I
felt like we've been working towards it for quite a while.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Are you suggesting, Francisca, that as the woman in the household,
you took a bit of that mental load.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
I might have been holding on to a bit of
mental load there anyone I've spoken to, whether their child's
going to union, whether they're going over to the States,
or whether and are we it will more than likely
I'm making generalization here, be maybe the woman who is
driving it or assessing with all of that stuff. And
I think I also, I'd like to think this was
slightly mature of me. That was, but I was also
(06:42):
aware that our relationship needs to go to another level
now and I need to accept that he's an independent
young man and that we're going to be Our relationship
is going to be on a slightly different level, and
I think it's going to be better if he left. Look,
I'm going to be honest. I love him so so
(07:05):
much and I do miss him, and I have had
a couple of tiny moments, like cleaning out after I
finally cleaned out his bedroom, which I thought, you know,
was his job to do. And I cleaned that out,
and I looked and I went, oh, yeah, he has gone.
And I have had little moments, but I am. I
am sort of all good about this. But I didn't
think myself, this is a very expensive way to grow up,
and there's a very expensive, privileged way to grow up.
(07:26):
But I do believe that the relationship will kind of
go to another level. And do you know what, I'm
taking that whole chestnut that you do as a parent,
that whole you know, if your kid is unhappy, the
parent's unhappy. If your kids fine, you're fine. That's the
attitude taking. At the moment, he is fine, he is
living the dream. So I'm not going to worry because
I know there's going to be ups and downs stirt
the year. I know there will be hurdles and things
(07:47):
that come along.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Will worry when there's something, so I will.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Worry when there's something to worry about. You mentioned the
sadness and the anger. Were you expecting to feel like
that and was it different the second time around?
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Well, yeah, so the first time around, my son was
a bit more super enthusiastic and super goal oriented and
absolutely knew one hundred percent why he was going what
he was going for, and he was also going with
his girlfriend and mates. So he kind of, you know,
shut the door and did a little back and I
(08:20):
think that's where the little seed of irritation grew. It's like,
wait a minute, you haven't got to this point without
without us. And you know, it wasn't that I expect
him to be gushy with gratitude. It was just more that, oh,
just like that. Okay, So yeah, no worries worth The
second one less one hundred percent focused on what it
was that she wants to do, still lots of and
(08:42):
we've always encouraged her. She's a bright girl. We've always
encouraged her to think of lots of options, and now
I'm starting to think perhaps we should have, you know,
pushed it towards a certain goal. So there was a
little bit of hesitation on both about parts of is
this the one hundred percent the right thing to be doing?
And then you know, the dog died.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
Oh you had a bad week.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
I died like a few days before she left, So
there was a lot of there was a bad additional
gree in the family. So it just got's gone about
as much as I expected to that afterpart the I
didn't go with her, as you know, my son was
already down there, my sister was down there. They said
little and it went as it expected. But I will
say the three of us left me, my husband and
(09:19):
my sixteen year old are settling in nicely. We make
a cute little team. We should make a cute little tea.
Not that we don't mess terribly and her can't misses
her terribly, but we're good. Yeah, we're all right.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
That's good. I'm pleased to hear.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
No no big angsty arguments over the phone with the
second one.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Okay, well, they're all different, aren't they. I've got a
bit of a theory though about mums and sons, and
I don't know if you'd agree with this, but I
think that I struggled more with the loss. And you'll
remember this, with the loss of my gorgeous young boy.
When puberty hit, you know that stage when they go
from sort of they're so cuddly and overly enthusiastic about
(09:58):
everything and they're communicative, and they turn into grunters who
can't remember why they crossed the room, and you remember
just saying to here, I just I don't, I can't.
Who is this child that I can't They don't communicate
and I can't talk to them, and where is this
boy gone? And everything? And you said to me, it's okay,
he'll be back a couple of years later.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
If finally, Oh, you were right. It was a little
longer than I thought.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
But I wonder whether that it was almost like grief.
I had that.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
For that goal experience.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
When you know that that mothers have when their sons
around thirteen is a bit of an opportunity for them
to slowly start preparing to let their boys go at eighteen.
It's just a theory, but I just, oh, I like
that theory.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
And I think there is a term of individuating. If
you don't individuate from your family, I think we probably
can all think of people we've known who have failed
to launch, or even ourselves sometimes failed to launch. But
they have to unless there's some reason that they can't.
They do need to individuate from their family. And so
that's where I settle down and rationalize and sit in
(11:04):
that feeling and go, oh, this is okay for me
to feel angry, but it's not okay for me to
put it on them. This is just life actually.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
But look, we still both have one at home. I
think when the final child leaves, that'll hit me, you know,
oh my gosh, my kids have their own lives. But
you know, in the meantime, it's all good.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Well, look we are very still, very much in the
thick of this Epnionese phase, and so you know, we
thought we could do some perspective, didn't we. So we
decided we'd talk to someone who's been through it all,
dealt with her daughter living overseas and it's gone full
circle to be back living with her daughter and grandchildren.
So today we have also columnists and host of news
Talk zb's Mornings, Carrie Wouldham. Welcome, Carrie Hi.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Carrie Hi team, thank you very much for being with us.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
My pleasure.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Can you I was gonna say, can you remember, but
that implies that it was a long time ago.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
It was kind of a long time ago.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
I did Kate leave home.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
She lived when she was eighteen, so that was, you know,
eighteen years ago, and yeah, so left she was still
in the same city, but she left to go flatting
when she went to Uni.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
And how did you cope with that?
Speaker 3 (12:10):
It was okay because I knew she was in the
same city, but I anticipated feeling a sense of loss
because I loved having the girls and the guys coming
around and getting ready to go out for their big nights.
And they were so gorgeous and so much fun. And
I love the fact that they'd come around on the
weekend for pool parties and I'd learn new music from them,
(12:33):
and they were just vibrant and young and gorgeous and
just delightful to be around, interesting different perspectives. And then
she was gone, and they were gone, and they were gone,
because you don't just lose your daughter, you lose that
whole company of friends. They're gorgeous, young people, and you're
(12:54):
left with the man who loves to watch television and
put phones on his ears and watch television. And then
there was me.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Yeah, yeah, I didn't think about the friends that we
were losing to.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
No, No, I'm sorry to enter. It's funny you say that,
because whenever I do talk to my son, it's only
been a month, but I'm always asking about everybody else
as well, and how so and so has And you
can't get any information.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
They are just divine young people to be around. And
you know, a couple of Kate's friends and my son
and laws friends who are married now met on my
fiftieth birthday, you know, well, not met, they knew each other,
but they got together on my fiftieth birthday, which is
just lovely, you know. So that should give you hope
that they do still stay in your lives.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
So did you react the way you thought you would
or was there anything that kind of surprised you or
took you by surprise.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
No. I knew that I'd miss Kate terribly and her
friends when she was gone, because she was my proxy
going out person because my then husband really didn't like
going out. Why would I want to go out and close?
I don't want to go to meet people I don't
want to meet to talk about things I'm not interested in,
which was a compelling point, you know. So Kate would
(14:06):
come with me and she was my really call plus one,
So I knew I was losing that when she left.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Were you working?
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (14:15):
God, yes, you were, always you always were.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
I've worked since I was.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Seven, Yeen.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Does that make a difference? Do you think having something
else in your life hugely saying goodbye hugely, Like if.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
My work had been at home, if my job was
to be a homemaker, which I think is a really
important job, I would be devastated because what is your purpose?
What is your reason? When that reason has left you,
abandoned you.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
I guess that, you know, you'd hope perhaps that people
for whom that has been their primary role have hopefully
given that some thought and made sure they've got other
things in their life for when it comes.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Otherwise it's a big wrench.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
It's a big wrench.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Yeah, yeah, and hopefully they have I mean most most
men and women who are homemakers. That's not just it.
You know, they do have groups and friendship groups and
interest groups. But yes, I imagine it would be a
big wrench. But I suppose mercifully the year that she
(15:16):
was the first year that she went flatting, I'd been
asked to run my first marathon, and i'd also, you know,
so that that took a lot of time and a
lot of training and was a great distraction for me.
So then I ran the Aukland Marathon. Then I was
asked to write a book about that, and then I
ran the New York marathon, and then I became a
(15:39):
spokesperson for paper Plus, which involved going around the country
hosting author evenings, which took up enormous amount of time
and was enormous amounts of fun. And so that filled.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
The time running marathons and writing books like Carrie. That's
quite that, you know, you think about it quite an.
Speaker 4 (15:55):
Extreme rame with people to deal with it, but.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
A lot of I am extreme way extraorin.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Actually that's great because you actually recognize I do have
my time back. I can make decisions about what I
do with my time.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yes, and that's a good thing. Yeah, it is, And
you can fill it in a really purposeful way. Mine
was accidental. You know. If somebody had said the way
you'll fill time when Kate leaves home, mister on marathons,
I would have you know, I wouldn't have thought that
was a viable option, shall we say? But it does
mean that you can fill your life in a purposeful
(16:28):
way and do things perhaps that you never imagined you
might be able to.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
I also think if all of our children are different
and they're all ready to leave at different times, there
are some that just stay too long, you know, and
they need to be booted out. But everyone's kind of
ready to go when they're ready to go. But I
think when they do go, you should pack yourself on
the back as a parent, because actually, if you've raised
(16:54):
a kid to be independent and to be brave enough
to gout me independent, you've done your job, you know,
so you should we should actually be celebrating it as
a sign of this is awesome, This is what you're
supposed to do. This is a sign that you know.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Well, I mean, when did you leave home?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
I stayed at home for my first year of UNI
because I went to UNI in the same city, yeah,
maybe the second or third year.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
And sensibly having come fresh out of a Catholic boarding school,
my mum and dad put me with an Irish Catholic
aunt and her family in Wellington because I would have
been a disaster if I'd stayed in a flat or
in student accommodation. You know, I had naive Catholic girl
to get heard across my forehead. Please take me anybody, now,
(17:37):
you know, it was just I would have been a disaster,
so I was insulated, awe. But then I was off
and away, from the age of seventeen eighteen around the country.
Doing you know, working in Ready in New Zealand and
far flung spaces, and you know, eighteen I think is
about right. But for me, and it was for Kate too,
(17:57):
at least.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
She was in the same city school in seventh four
to two, so I had my parents would have over sea,
so we'd had time apart and things like that, and
I did have some independence.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
I felt like my son was a mere fetus, as
you know, I think I said to you, it feels
like someone's ripped him from my work. He was seventeen.
I think it was also additional grief for the idea
that he was leaving his siblings behind. And they were
quite young, so I mean, no, I don't know how
rold would head being thirteen, and it just seemed like, oh,
you haven't had enough time with them. Yeah, but they
(18:28):
were fine. It was me. It was me, part of
project Grief on Grief. But you know, he's twenty one
now and he may have had a job opportunity here
and there was the idea that he might come home
and the youngest son now who's sixteen, went oh bloody, hell,
I hope not. You know, I've just got this pad
to myself.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
So actually and they've got a great relationship.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Do The thing that I'm really grateful for is that
I wasn't going through menopause at the same time as
Kate was leaving home, because that would be a double whammy.
That would be horrific.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
It's a joking. Our family. My daughter just think it's hilarious.
She's just like, well, that's what happens when you go
through perimenopause, and I'm a puberty mum. It's just it's dynamite.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Oh well, see, I was. I'm quite grateful I was
out of the blocks quite young because I just turned
twenty four when Kate was born, So when she left home,
I donate I think it's forty one or forty two,
and then it was years before bloody menopause, which is
the most ridiculous form of production. I mean, it's just inefficient, you.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Know it is.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
It least started me have to deal with that, but
we actually the emotional kind of anguish that you have
going through menopause, dealing with the fact that you're then
also losing a child.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
And also it might be retrospective because as you're saying that,
I'm thinking, oh, yeah, that probably was when I was
in the thick of it when he left four years
or three years later, got my head around all of that,
and it's a lot more stable.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
I think you have to be really gentle with yourself,
you know. And I remember Mum saying that she used
to walk past my bedroom and cry because it was
so neat.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
And isn't that what your dad?
Speaker 3 (19:59):
What are you? What are bloody doing? You know she's
she's loving where she is.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
I why are you bloody crying? I haven't had many moments,
but the one I did have was after I'd cleaned
up Oscar's room and they went, oh, yeah, he has gone,
he has he's going to stay this and then the
cat moved one. It's hilarious, but you're absolutely right. I think,
of course, we're all having our babies later, and what
we're not thinking about is there's just going to be
cat hormonal carnage at the same time. I mean, I
(20:26):
do feel for the boys in our house at times.
You know, you've got you've got two women at different
ends of the spectrum going through sort.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Of a that's actually that's why you can't really don't
have an I probably didn't realize in that first year
when my oldest sound left home that my husband was
grieving too. Yes, his mate particularly, they had rugby in common,
and he'd be the one, he will be the one
that would entertain very long conversations about rugby. And so
(20:53):
it was like, Dad, we're not interested, you know, and
it's it was.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
But there's a reason why a lot of people go
do lowly, you know. I think the men have their
meno Porsche, you know, which is when they trade in
the sensible family sedan in the form of the wife
and the mother of their children, for the snazzy top
down red sports car which is the much younger girl
because they need to validate themselves too, you.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Know that me, my husband coming for the live the car,
all the women, So.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Yeah, you know, it's that kind of well, this is it,
you know, now what because the really important phase of
your life has come to an end of raising a
beautiful adult, you know. And now what did Kate have
any wobbles, No, none, whatsoever, although she did get married
(21:40):
before she had graduated law school. So yeah, that she
was married very young and had very clear ideas about
how her family wanted to look, which will no resemblance
to how she had been raised.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
That's interesting. We hate you the most her leaving home
or deciding to get married.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Oh, her leaving home. I was thrilled for her. But
do you know that the most amazing sense of release
when your child finds your adult child finds a partner
that you think is worthy of them. You know that
that is loved and supported and nurtured in a way
that you you had done and that you dream that
(22:20):
they will get. Because then you really do feel your
jobs done. Then you know from now on it's just
you know, the the chocolate flakes on top of the cherry,
on top of the cake, because you know, I can
leave this planet quite happily now knowing that everybody I
love is safe.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Gosh, that's something, isn't it. I must I agree with you.
My son had quite a long term relationship and his
teens and although maybe you could say that wasn't ideal,
watching him be loved and really beautifully loved was did
make me feel like, oh, we've done something else right.
It's a tick in the box of having a healthy
being able to be capable of having a healthy relationship.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
So that's something to look forward to, it is, Carrie,
if Kate had wobbled or if she was struggling, and
I'm sure there were times that she called with some
issues or spoke to things. How do you deal with that, Because,
as we've already said, all our kids are different. They
head off on these adventures. Some it all goes swimmingly.
You know, Oscar's gone to Canterbury with a girlfriend and
(23:22):
his best mates and he's in heaven right, But that's
not the same for everybody. So how do you from
afar support without trying to control.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
The caring, not controlling, caring, not controlling. I don't know.
Because she was in Auckland. If she needed me, she'd
swing by. We used to go on holiday together. Sometimes
she'd come with me on the marathon tours when I
went to France and parrisonlike, wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
You Yeah, I think holidays are really really important.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
Holidays together are great. But I just knew it was
her time, you know, for her to be her, for
her to because I'd had that time. I'd had that time,
and I didn't necessarily want to see her grow up
and make mistakes under my watch. I don't want to
see her drunk, you know, that's for her friends to
(24:19):
pick her up and sort her out. I didn't, you know,
I don't think it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
I don't. I don't want to see her make mistakes
like I thought of myself, and I thought, I don't
want to see myself like that. I don't want my
mother to see it.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
I've spoken to a few people in preparation for this,
and a couple of tuesdays ago, I was pretty close
to booking a flight down to christ Jurch and literally
a woman came up to me who I've been talking
about about the kids leaving and all that, and she said,
take your finger off that button. No, you don't need
(24:55):
to go. It was And then I talked to a
few other people and they all said, oh, you've all
had that lingering moment where you just look up. Can
I get a flight today? How much is it going
to cost me? Because your child's just merely said, oh,
I'm feeling a bit wobbly today. You know, at the
end of the day, they're fine.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
I remember Kate saying to me one day she might
have even been married by them, but then she was
married at twenty one, but she said to me, sometimes
I just want to talk to you. I don't want
you to fix it. I just want you to I
just want to talk and if load, I don't want
you to, right, Okay, Well we don't lah.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
You know, you think we'd have learned that without them
having to tell us, wouldn't you? But we I guess
we don't. That caring buttons pretty.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
Hard to kill the control them.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yes, the controlling fixing button is quite hard to turn off.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
But I mean, how do you stand by and watch
somebody in pain, you know, if they're letting out a
psychic graw. I don't blame you for wanting to get done,
but I can't.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Remember my partner coming home from work once instead of
and he was just any to have event and everything,
and I'd try and offer some sage advice.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
So can you just look to me one and he went,
I just want a vent. I don't need a pep talk.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
I know all that, but he was right, And it's
a bit the same, really, what you're talking about with
these kids, They just want to know that there's some
where they can go where they're not going to be judged.
They can just be heard and listen to it and
get it all out. Yeah, because there is a subtle
shift in the relationship when they leave, they've headed out
into the world. We want to treat them like young adults,
aware of the fact they've got a lot to learn,
a lot of experiences to go through and things and
(26:16):
you can't fix everything. No, So I'm being really conscious
at the moment of you know, I mean, I would
love to just be able to ring my boy and go, hey,
have you sorted this? And have you done that? And
are you on top of the UNI work? And have
you got that assignment? And and you can't. No, you
can't just keep going back. You've got to kind of
just go how's your week, I know, and let them
open you know. But they're not good at sharing, so
(26:38):
you just have to open it up. And then you
sort of subtly might say, and how's the work going?
And you're enjoying this and enjoying that. But it's about
stepping back and going actually, it's on you now, my friend.
This is what you want. You want the independence. You're
a younger. Where's going to treat you like a young adult?
Speaker 3 (26:51):
You know? And I'm watching it because I think Kajun
her husband are really good parents, really good parents. They
don't fix things or create things, and like, I really
admire the way they parent, and they don't fix everything
for the kids, you know, they they you know, I've
had to really stop myself from saying be careful, be
careful around the grandchildren because they don't say that. They
(27:13):
let them have a go around. If they fall off
and cry for a bit, then they cry for a
that's life.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah, it's funny. We had a family gather and I
think you guys were there and Tournia fell there and
Ted was home for the holidays, and they were asking
him how things were going on. And I wasn't really listening,
but I did hear this. He said, you know what,
I was on the bones of my ass ealier this year,
and god, it was hard, it was awful and my
heart just went into my stomach. And yeah, well, no,
(27:39):
I would have if you had told me. But he'd
made a conscious decision. I'm not asking this time. I'm
going to do something about this. But he had to
get to rock bottom. But it was interesting because he
didn't tell me. He told them and I only overheard
it later on that night. I said, you know, wish
you told us it was such a struggle, and he goes,
I work through it. It was fine because you'd.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Have fussed tried to fix exactly, and they don't want to.
They want to know that they're capable and strong and able,
and I totally get that. And I think the best
thing Kate and her husband did was to fly to London,
you know, and build a life of their own over there.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
We're going to talk about that in just a moment.
You're listening to The Little Things, and our guest on
the podcast today is the News Talks Here to be
morning's host, Kerrie Would It will be back shortly after
this break.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
This is The Little Things.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
So, Carrie, you mentioned just before your daughter heading overseas,
which is the next step. And I'm sure there's lots
of pearance at the moment dealing with kids heading off
on oe's and things. How did that feel?
Speaker 3 (28:41):
I was really excited for them. I would have probably
felt differently if she'd been going off on her own
to join friends who were already over there, but she
was going with her husband, and I just saw these
two gorgeous young souls, just brave and foolish, and you know,
going off as so many the other Key Wee kids
have done to take on the world. You know, did
(29:04):
you feel the distance though, No, because I knew and
that only comes with having the money in the bank
to be able to do so that I could be
there in twenty four thirty six hours. You know, I
knew I was, and that worked out, Like when jumping
ahead when they had the second baby. Kate was so
pregnant with her with Dora and her husband broke his leg.
(29:29):
She was so hugely pregnant and had a little toddler
and she just rang mom and I was. I was
there in thirty six hours. But that that comes, you know,
I'm well aware that that only comes with the financial
privilege of being able to buy an air ticket and
be there. If I didn't, if I knew I couldn't
be there, or if it was the days of having
to hop on an ocean line or and parp your
(29:50):
way across, you know, that would be quite different if
it was if I was just relying on aerograms.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
How often did you guys, Because communication is a really
interesting thing as well, so we dealing with that not
trying to over communicate.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
You know, you don't get a lot.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Out of a teenage boy. To be honest with you,
they're having a good time and they're having a great time.
So we have a scheduled call every Sundayay and at
a time that suits him. And we just cacked up
on the week that's been in the weak ahead, and
anything else that comes throughout the week is a little extra.
But I'm not trying not to push it. But you've
got you've got your child who's on the other side
of the world with her husband, but now they're having
(30:26):
babies and things like that.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
You know, I was a bit desperate about that, but
I was able to get over and see them. They
were able to get over come back and see me.
There was one ropeie time before the babies were born,
when Kate was working as a nanny and was in
Greece on an island in Greece somewhere, and it all
went pear shaped with a pearents and she was catching
the first flight out but on this resort she couldn't
(30:50):
get off until the morning. So I just stayed up
all night with her on Facebook. And again, how lucky
were we to have that communication, that form of community.
So we opened a bottle of wine and she opened
a bottle of wine and we just you know, sat
through the night, was safely on a pointment.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
I've got a million different ways of keeping in touch.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
It's not that flimsy blue eerogram.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
I don't know so many of those that my mother
sent me when I was on my oh.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Even with now, I mean, we often just seemed a
real or something. You know, every day there'll be some
sort of we played as something, yeah, something to chicken,
but when gosh, I mean, I didn't give my My
parents had nine children between them, so you know, when
I left overseas, I don't know how much they thought
about it, but I didn't really give it much.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Thought at all.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
I didn't give any thought to my parents either.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Trans Siberian Express and went to China for four months
and then Russia for a little bit, and I got
an aerogram with a cutout from the Christ Church priest
and they'd written an article and the title was the
Train of Pain and Death the Trans Siberian Express. So
my mother kindly sent that to me, which she was
very brave like. My mum let me wander around the
(31:58):
world and parts of the world where there had not
been a lot of foreigners before you know, and she
I don't know how she coped with that. But these days,
but that's the thing, you see, we expect proof of life,
that's what you know. And I've had a few parents
say to me, how often are you texting? And how
often should I expect a response? This is for those
of us who've just you know, his first kids gone
and I go. The proof of life is easy. It's
(32:21):
as you say, it's liking a funny video you send them,
or it doesn't have to it doesn't have to be.
They don't have to answer all your calls or answer
all your texts. You just have to accept the fact
they're having a good time and everything's okay.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
And they will be in touch when they need you.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
And even in one family, two kids can be quite different.
We've got friends, but you know, the dad is always
reaching out to one of the doors and she just
like okay, yeah, you know, and the other daughter's full
of gushing news. So it's all very child dependent, isn't it.
I do think again, it comes back to that my
husband was trying to reach my daughter and she just was,
(32:56):
I don't know, ignoring him, And then he sent her
a message and said he if you've blocked me, or
if you want to block me, just let me know,
which he meant jokingly. She ran straight away. Oh, I'm
sorry you were feeling like that, dad. You know, you
don't know what you don't know, but so yours have.
Kate has come back. She came back from the UK.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
Obviously they were always going to come back when the
first child was to start school, so thank god it
was in the middle of the COVID years, so they
came back six months early. And then we ended up
buying a house together. And yeah, from you know, it
was just the way it was. I was on my
own by now, and house prices were insane, so we all, yeah,
(33:39):
we bought a house and we were lucky enough to
find one where I've got two rooms in her kitchen
and a bathroom downstairs, and they've got the upstairs, so
they've got their own separate living space. But it took
a bit of learning because for a while I was
up there like oh it's bad, like when you're eighteen again,
and it's like, no, Mum, push off. There's a reason
we bought, you know, a house with two levels.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Because normally it's when they come back and they inevitably
will come back to save some money. At some point
that you have to put the boundaries around the child
and go, actually, hey.
Speaker 5 (34:07):
Was boundaries around me, because it's like, yes, you've come
back and that's great, but actually you need to fit
in a little bit more now without And if you're working,
what would you do if if your kid comes back,
they've got a job, they want to save some money,
would you still say, yep, but you can pay a
little bit.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
I think So that's the real world, doesn't it. I
mean I say that, I'd like i'd enforce it, Like
I don't. I'm hopeless.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
But if you look at your friends as well who've
had their kids come back, if they did they put
any sort of they go, Okay, that's cool. We'd love
to have your home. I mean, I would say to
my kids, you're always welcome to come home. But I
think at different ages and stages there might be you know,
there might be slightly different.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
But I mean, if you've raised your child, it's just
good manners to contribute towards anywhere you're staying. As one hundred, yeah, Like,
I just can't imagine a world where where Kate wouldn't
offer to pay for something like I know that when
she's borrowed something or you know, it's always delivered straight
back with some flowers and a note, you know, like,
(35:11):
I can't imagine a world where she wouldn't contribute.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
And the poultry one hundred bucks or something I'd probably
make him pay a week is not going to make.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Much difference to his house deposit.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
To be honest with you, no, and they have to
understand that there are going to be expenses and that
it's important that they contribute, so they learn how to budget.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
But gosh and fire that in voice off. I'm just
thinking that the difference from living across the other side
of the world to living upstairs and downstairs, that's pretty significant.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
I think it was more significant for them, the poor things,
because Kate was used to being the mistress of her
own home for a very long time. Then all of
a sudden, you know, she might come home from work
and unfolding the wall. You know. I mean, it's good
because I've picked up the kids and that's great, and
I just it's such a privilege. But you know, I
unfolding the washing. Does she really want me folding her under?
You know, and I check in with her now and
(36:03):
say anytime it's too much, or you just don't want
to look at my face, you know, just send me downstairs.
I'm happy down there.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
And interestingly, you're sort of going full circle. You know,
You've gone through the experience of Kate living home and
living overseas, and now she's come back and you've, as
you say, got this privilege of being so close to
your grandchildren. But they're going to grow up too, Carrie,
I know they're gonna leave.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
It's like you're going through it, you go through your
It's just pure joy. It's one hundred and fifty percent joy.
Because they're not mine. They're not mine to lose. They're
just mine to love, you know. And I just, yeah,
it's quite a different love. I don't feel that possessive love.
I don't like I love the fact that they've got
other grandparents who love them as much as I do.
(36:45):
I don't mind sharing them. It's a completely different love.
You just want as many people in the world to
love these beautiful souls as much as I do.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
How old are the grand children there?
Speaker 3 (36:55):
But will be eight on Monday and Dora's six Top
four I'm.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Got all those fabulous here, I know, and I've had
all these fabulousies with them.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
You know, I was there when we're not there there,
but I was there. I was with them within I
was a week of Bart being born, and the night
Dora was born, I looked after Bart and so I've
got all of these beautiful memories that inform the relationship
with these kids, Like for his birthday, but it was like,
should you and me just go to that Ethiopian restaurant
(37:26):
that we went to for Dad's birthday and you know,
just us? And I'm like, yeah, that'd be fundable. It's
just magical. And I know there are grandparents who don't,
who feel that their parenting is done. But because I
was a single mother for a long time and then
I was working all the time, I never got my
fill of nurturing, I guess, and being a mum. You know,
(37:51):
I never got the chance to do it right, if
you know what I mean, because I couldn't pick Kate.
Sometimes I could pick Kate up from school, but other times.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
I was I don't think there is a right way
to do it, you know, I wouldn't let that go.
I think we all do the best that we can do.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
That we have just pure joy the way everybody and
to take them to like I love taking them to
swimming practice and watching every stroke. I'm not on my phone.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Okay, you know that's brilliant, you know, because I did
not watch.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
Don't because you've got a thousand things to do. You know,
you're a mum and you've got a million things to do, and.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
You're not as present. Perhaps no, no, no, you're not.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
As present because you've got a thousand things to do
in terms of running the household and looking after the
kids and trying to jack up the next thing. Whereas
for me, I don't. I've got so much more time.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
So the crazy outcome of this podcast, I think is
that I quite like my kids to have babies.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Wait wait, wait, you're jump too far.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Left.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
Okay, you left time.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Now how about a baby.
Speaker 4 (38:54):
Kit?
Speaker 3 (38:55):
And and partner told Tom and I would like to
take you out to dinner. And I'm like, oh, oh,
she's having a baby. Oh my goodness, Oh to be wonderful. No,
they can move back in and I'll do the front room,
and she can keep going to university until the baby's
born in them. So I had it all planned. We
went to dinner. Mum, Tom, yes, yes, well we're going
(39:19):
to get married married. Are you pregnant? And didn't I
tell you? She would say that, did I not tell
you you are? You're not gonna have a baby, No, Mum.
I just thought somebody should do things the right way
around once.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Like having just done a twenty first album for my
oldest child, I really it was such a privilege and
honor to do it because I had to look through
all those photos and see the grandparents' influence on him,
and it's fifty percent of how he's been raised as
the grandparents, you know, really not in terms of time,
but in terms of their influence and the love. They're pure,
(39:55):
unadulterate and it's just love.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
It's you know. When I look at those children, it's
that hard emoji that's you know, and there's just clouds
of hearts coming out, and they're both so different. There's
so much fun and it allows you to be present
and allows you to enjoy every moment and not sweat
the small stuff. And you know, I have them for
(40:18):
a week during the school holidays, and it's such a privilege,
such a privilege.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
We've already cycled through life, haven't we have?
Speaker 2 (40:25):
We still carry as always love your sage advice, but
also thank you for sharing with us because I think
you know we're all. I feel very positive about all
this now. There's lots of wonderful things to look forward
to in different stages and phases.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
And we could have sat here and just kind of
reminisced about everything we've lost rather than what we're looking at.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
And honestly, I've been to three weddings of their friends,
so you don't lose the friends either. You know, they
are still part of your life. And I again that
such a privilege to be involved.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
And look, there are a lot of silver linings, from
the lack of dishes to the lack of washing, into
the lack of you.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Know, that'sing you can't hide from. When that person leaves,
there's no you know you wondered who who was the
messy one?
Speaker 2 (41:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Yeah, we know who we know now.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Carrie, thank you so much, absolute put.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
So, Francisca. That was really interesting and as I say,
we did kind of cycle through the life cycle of
it there, even though Carrie is still a very young woman.
What did you what do you make of it all?
Speaker 2 (41:28):
I think it's just really reassuring life goes on. You're
going to be okay, your kids are going to be okay.
There's lots of different, exciting new stages ahead for both
child and parent, and I think you just have to
manage those little and accept that there will be moments
(41:48):
of you know, sadness, or moments when things aren't you know,
going well, and maybe you might need your child more
than they need you. But actually that's kind of just
life and it's okay.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Oh absolutely. And I think you know, when we were
talking at some point about how you leave them at
the kindergarten and wave goodbye, and then you leave them
at the first day of primary school and then again
the first day of high school. It is it's you
can be sad about how quickly it goes and you
consider in those waves of grief from time to time,
but there's always another tide coming in with something good.
(42:18):
I'm going to be really philosophical.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
It's a huge amount of positives and I think we
sort of talked about those. One there's you know, there's
one less person at the hotel. Yeah, you know, so
there's that side of it too. You know, we should
be celebrating that our kids are brave enough to head
out into the world. That's a really great thing to
head off on that independence and the changing nature of
our relationship. It's it's kind of got to be a
(42:40):
good thing. I just for me personally, it's about remembering
just to step back, not demand that communication that you
want all the time, and checking that they're okay, and
just letting that relationship naturally go to a new level,
not trying to fix and solve everything.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
And that you know that comes more naturally to some
of us than others. But you know, if you are
struggling with that, just just talk to another person who's
been through it, I think is always a good idea,
Like sh'ld be honest.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Yeah, you know how someone said to me other day,
you know, whose kid had just started intermediate, and she said, look,
I'm gonna be really honest with you.
Speaker 4 (43:14):
It's not going well.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
But she says, every time, you know, I ask another
parent how it's going, they go, oh, my kid's loving it.
Everything's great. You know, sometimes we're just it's actually okay
to go. Not a good day, not a good week,
not a good month. You know, just be honest with
each other, because I think we'll find that we're all
sort of sharing the same kind of.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
I spoke to a woman when I said, oh my god,
it so this is a rollercoaster. One day she's okay,
the next day she's feeling really flat. The next day
she's good. And she said, oh, you know, we had
that for four years. It's like fantastic. Okay, Well, yeah, no,
let's just see if we can get a little more
stable kind of situation going on. But isn't it the
same for all of us when we do something new. Yeah,
(43:50):
and we know that we've been able to do it.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
And look, that's what we want to say. We want
to say if you're listening to this and you've had
someone leave recently or a little while ago, or you know.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
Always going later and he's going later in the year.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
If you're tuning through those kids leaving, we're kind of
all on this together. We're all experiencing the same thing.
So thanks so much for joining us on our new
Zealand Herald podcast series, The Little Things. We hope you
share this podcast with the women in your life so
we can all be reminded it's good times.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Ahead, that's right, and you can follow this podcast on
iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and for more
on this and other topics, here to inset Herald dot
co dot inzet and
Speaker 2 (44:26):
We'll catch you next time on the Little Things
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com