August 9, 2024 • 46 mins
There are plenty of barriers in place when it comes to women in the workplace - not just from the gender pay gap, but the way mothers and middle-aged women are treated by their employers.
To discuss how to break down those walls and be valued by your employer, this week Francesca and Louise are joined by women's employment advocate and head of her consulting agency, Jo Cribb.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hi, I'm Francesca Rudkin and I'm Louise Aria. And this
is season three of our New Zealand hei podcast The
Little Things, a podcast where we talk to experts and
find out all the little things you need to know
to improve all areas of your life and cut through
the confusion and overload of information out there, because we
all know how overwhelming it can be. Today, we're going
to talk about women and our careers and the challenges
(00:30):
we face from progressing our careers in middle age, juggling
the paid and unpaid workwomen do, and having the courage
to make a change and maybe, you know, find that
job that's a bit more fulfilling.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Did you always know what you wanted to do?
Speaker 3 (00:41):
No?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Just do you know now what you want to do? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I want to lie on a beach, But in previous
episodes we found that that's actually not good for us
long term.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
No.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
I guess the more I investigate these things, the more
digiti or yeah, I get itchy feet. So I'm not finished.
I have got something else in me, and I just
don't know what it is. I never knew what I
wanted to do. I always admired those people who at
the age of ten, said I'm going to be a
doctor or I'm going to be a farmer. And they
knew exactly what they were going to do, and then
(01:14):
they went off and did it. They kind of annoyed
me as well a little bit. I never had any
idea what I wanted to do, so I went to university,
studied something I was interested in, and then completely stumbled
into television and sort of got an apprenticeship and learned
on the job. And if I hadn't, if they just
hadn't been that opportunity, I don't know what I would
(01:34):
be doing right now. I think we probably both studied
in that time where it wasn't necessarily a vocational thing,
and I think the pressure is on now for it.
It was more affordable, it was a little bit moreable,
more affordable. It's quite funny, though, because we both have
teenagers who are finishing school this year, and we go
out of our way not to ask their friends what
(01:56):
they're going to do next year, not out of not
out of a lack of but because of that pressure
on young people to know what they want to do
and where they want to go.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I just think it's so tough.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Well, I witnessed it with my twenty year old. He's
in a third year of his degree now, but I
witnessed it when he was in year thirteen. And I've
vowed and declared, and I said to you, I'm not
going to ask that question of any year thirteen's going forward.
It is the natural question. Every single person asks it
of my daughter, and she's not even one hundred percent sure,
(02:26):
and it's, you know, getting close to making a decision.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
It's stressful. It is stressful. Are you happy with where
you're at in your career?
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I am most of the time. When I start doing
research for things like this FRENCHISCA. And it was the
same with the mental old episode, I start, a little
bit of feminist anger does build up in me, a
little bit about just the way things have turned out,
and perhaps that I haven't made decisions. I've gone with
(02:54):
the flow a little much, you know, a little too much. Yeah,
I think, I said to you. You know, I'm working
for the same salary I was on in two thousand
and four when I went on maternity leave, probably responsible
for managing more money for the organization, research outputs, all
that kind of thing. And yeah, it's not It's fulfilling,
(03:15):
but not financially fulfilling, and that is one of the
things we're going to talk about today.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I think, what about you. Yeah, I'm happy with where
I'm at. That's good.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
But you know, it required me to, like, I'm loving
radio and this is a relatively new career for me.
I've only been doing it for five years, and it
took a lot of courage to say yes to it.
You know, Like I got the call when I was
in my mid forties, mid to late forties, someone saying, Hey,
(03:45):
would you like to give this a go? Would you
like to work over the summer in a holiday show.
It's a very simple show. Would you like to give
it a go? Every part of me was going, no,
that's terrifying, but I knew I hate to say yes. Immediately.
I knew I couldn't think about it. I knew that
this was a really amazing opportunity. They don't come along
very often, and even though it terrified me, I knew
(04:07):
I just had to say yes.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I know.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
I remember I remember talking about it on a run
or something, and You're like, I've got to do all
the buttons.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
I was like, this is ridiculous. They're going to let
me do this nationwide show.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
I have no idea what I'm doing, and I can
remember just before that show started, that first show, I
remember sitting here at the desk going, Okay, are they
going to sink or swim? Right, I'm just going to swim.
I'm just going to do this and I'm going to swim.
And you know, over time, more work came and I've
been able to sort of start a new career in
my mid to late forties, which you know, I'm very,
(04:41):
very fortunate about, but.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
It did take quite a big, sort of.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Courageous fay to do it and yourself, Yeah, yeah, totally.
So look to give us some inspiration and information on
how to advance our careers, future proof our careers, find
the right career. We're joined by Joe crib today. Joe
is an Experience oriens chief executive, a board member, a strategist,
a gender and policy experts. He's also a coach and
a career mentor and co author of books such as
(05:08):
Take Your Space, Successful Women share their Secrets and Don't
Worry about the Robots, How to survive and thrive in
the New World of work. Welcome Joe, Thanks for being
with us.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Oh, Curra, it's my absolute delight.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Lovely to me.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
You, Hey, look, could we start with you telling us
a little about your career, Joe, because it's quite a
CV and you know what kind of interesting sort of
challenges you face during your career.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Well, the first thing, looking at it, it probably looks
very coherent, but when you're in the midst of it,
it didn't seem at all like that at all. So
I started out in my first roles, going to Wellington
to work in policy roles, and I was I guess
I had that young twenties gosh, I was going to
change the world where, whether it liked or not, kind
of erving was lucky enough to move up the ranks.
(05:53):
I had my first team leader job when I was
about twenty seven twenty eight, and I was absolutely rubbish
at it. I was the youngest person and in the team,
trying to prove myself, trying to be perfect at everything,
and luckily some of those team members when I bump
into them, are polite enough not to cross the road.
I then was in. I guess I looked around my
(06:15):
industry that I was working in. It was the public service.
It was twenty years ago, and there were very few women,
and you did never talked about your children, and it
was not an environment that was going to be particularly
friendly if I wanted to have children. My partner and
I decided to. So I took a side step out
and did my PhD while I had two children, and
I was very lucky that they arrived sort of when
(06:37):
I want to, and I just want to acknowledge that
that doesn't happen for everyone. And what it really did
is just buy me the time to be a mum,
because I don't think the system where I was operating,
particularly with in a team leader kind of role, fast
moving policy, was in any way going to help me.
I then went back after my doctorate and went into
a general manager role again. I think I had my
(07:00):
first actual I think we need to talk about it,
quite honestly. So I had two children, two toddlers, again
trying to be perfect, do you know, the perfect house.
I would stay up at night and wrap presents for
all the thousands of parties the kids would go to
because they're in daycare and put ribbons on them, and
as well as trying to be the perfect manager and
(07:20):
the perfect everything. And I literally got to the point
it didn't take very long where I one day got
out of bed, called my boss and said, I can't
do this anymore. And I think some of us reached
that and some of us don't, but I think I
was brave enough to ring up and said something has
to change. Either I have to give up trying to
be perfect in every aspect, or I have to find
(07:42):
a different way particularly of doing the job, or maybe
I should just quit and do something easier. I was
lucky enough to be accepted into a leadership development program,
which sounds very ironic, but basically they broke you down
and said what does good leadership? And good leadership isn't
trying to be the best and perfect everything. It actually
is creating an environment where people thrive. And it took
(08:03):
a whole lot of letting go and trust and all
sorts of things, but I did step up into that space.
And then you don't have to work a million hours
and have the whole I guess organization on your shoulders.
So that was a particularly stressful and difficult time. I
then was able to step up into more I guess
sing your roles, with the last role being a see
(08:23):
of the ministry for women. When I did that, my
husband and I decided we'd have five years on five
years off. So he took heeded his PhD. I'd just
like to say, for the record, took him five years.
Mine took two and a half. When I was doing
it part time, do you think there's a wee bit
of focus here, Like there's nothing like having to breastfeed
at two o'clock to get your PhD down.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Don't you think those soft skills of mother and come
into place.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
So there's a focus, there's a I would when I
was at the ministry for a woman, I sought out
woman who wanted to work part time because I think
they would just come and laser focused perform. They're amazing.
So rather than seeing part time as a as something negative,
I went searching for it and we just created an organization.
We mainly had a on Wednesday everybody should be in
(09:09):
so that we have some connection. And then then it
didn't matter when people work, and by gosh, we performed.
So yeah, and so interestingly, I had the five years
and then we sort of jiggled. I've had enough of
the big roles. I stepped back into it and started
my own consulting business, he stepped up into more technical roles.
I was still around, if that makes sense. I run
(09:30):
my own business, and I think through my teenage kids
years it was really important that often come into my
office and download, which I don't think they would do
if we were both not in the house. So I
think that kind of protected us through those years. And
now they're both off at university and only rang when
they want money.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
I feel that thank you so much for explaining that,
because you did right, I would have not you know,
I was reading about you, and I would never have
known all the trials and tribulations, in the ups and
downs that you've had to go through to be we
who are at today.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
The conversations and decisions that you have to make.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
You know, Yeah, and there is I guess trade offs
and choices and what I think there is is a
lot of learning for me. If I wanted to be
in those senior roles. I completely had to rethink about
what leadership was, which isn't easy, right, So you need
to let it go. Let go of all the things
you're actually good at, which I was quite good at
technical stuff. Let it go and then learn how to
be a good creative environment where people could thrive. And
(10:29):
it's a completely different skill set and you're doing this
and you haven't really had a good night's sleep for
five or six years. So I just think we need
to just share that. It isn't all Rosie and I
have got some of stories I'd like to share that
just keep it real. One of my roles was the
Deputy Children's Commissioner, a role I loved. We're doing some
work on child poverty and we were briefing the Prime
(10:50):
Minister in a very small room in Parliament and I
was quite close to him, and then I walked out
and I'd missed a call from daycare. I had to
go and pick the kids up because both of them
are riddled in knits and so was I, and I
probably gavens to the Prime Minister and his advices. I
think we're probably you've got to keep it real, right,
(11:11):
And it.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Didn't forgotten about it at.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
The time, did it? And then on our bathroom mirror
we had to because my husband is an engineer, so
we had post it notes and when we had to
comb and it was too weak, trying to get these
little yeah you can out of our lives right, and
and one you get the girl like, how did I
miss it? Because they had quite light and how did
I miss it? And then how did I get it?
(11:35):
Of course you had your kids, and I'm sorry, so
sir john Key, if you if you.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Ever got that, if you wondered where they came from.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
And the course of your meeting, it was probably me.
I'll confess now.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
I have PTSD with It's remember one of my children,
they had them on and off for two years. They
were in the same classroom for two years. And and
this kid claims that they were They were in the
you know, they put the carpet on the walls, and
they used to sit with the head against the That's
where they came from.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
And that's like I don't know. But my goodness too.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Isn't there too that it's not It's just one of
those things like the like the eyes they get what's
the one where the eyes get or some CONJUNCTI. Oh, yeah,
we've had a lot of fat we had doing keynote
presentations with you know, big panda eyes, Joe.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
What generally happens to women in the workplace when they
hit middle age.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Well, there's a lot of myths around that we become invisible.
And I do think there is ageism in the workplace.
I do think there is something, and I just can
I just speak from my experience. We get to the
point where you really are very focused on what you
care about. You know, you care less about what less
(12:50):
people you do, care less about what people think. You know,
you've got a certain amount of time left on the planet.
You want to make the difference in the area. We
actually become more more determined and more discerning. I'd like
to throw a little bit of perimenopause and menopause in there,
which can give you a nice little edge. I sometimes
think it's I wish I had that when I was twenty.
(13:11):
You know, their edge, Yeah, I agree, and you stop
sort of being the nice girl. So in some ways,
I think we should be a superpower. So I think
we should reframe this what happens to women in middle
life as they become invisible. I think we should be
taking our space more because we are so skilled, so experts,
so focused, and we're not going to take it. We're
not gonna put up with anything. We're like the perfect employees, really,
(13:33):
So that's certainly been my experience, and I just intend
to keep stepping up, right. I can see the space,
can see what's needed. I'm just going to get on
and do it. So yeah, I just banish the myths, right,
they're just trying to control us and put us in boxes.
Let's just smash them.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Love it.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
So is it then our responsibility to express that to
our employers.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Absolutely, if you've got some ambition, if you've got something
you want to do, like you were in your twenties,
you would have said what you wanted. Why would we
stop doing it now? In fact, we're in a much
better position. We often don't have as many child care responsibilities.
Often we are able to take more risks. In fact,
if you look at the research, some of the most
(14:15):
successful businesses are started by a women in their forties
and fifties. So I do think we have to fight
the images that are coming at us that we're aging
and there's something wrong with us and we're kind of dowdy,
because I don't know any middle aged women that are
to know. Yeah, I just think it's a controlled It's
another part of just being controlled, right, and we should
(14:38):
just step right the way through it with a smile
on our face and probably bright red lipstick.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
You said something earlier about the beginning of your career
feeling like you know that one person can make a
difference kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
I was begging then.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
I was always being told, Luise, one person can't make
the difference. And I was going home all through my
sort of late twenties in my career about that, right,
And then I think I did lose that and kind
of just went into the meanly of life and jaded
is the best way to describe it. And I think
you're onto something with the menopause thing too, because you
go back to going, well, if I don't try and
(15:13):
make a difference, what's the point? And you dropped the
people pleasing but enhance my compassion, I think.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Mate, absolutely, absolutely, And I have a daughter and I
want her not to have some of the experiences I
had coming in the workplace. I sit there and think
about it when we've looked too older, and you know,
the generation above or often in the leadership positions while
they're not, because we are the generation above and we
need to stand there and stand strong. When I was
(15:45):
coming up through I guess the leadership ranks there was
like a little handful of women like three when I
were looking three or four and they didn't have good reputations.
They were probably tarred with them more male than male
kind of brush. And when I look back at them,
they were absolutely pioneers, right, I think my hat off
to them. Amazing, But I mean, there wasn't There was
(16:07):
probably when I was chief executives, probably four or five
of us out of thirty, so we're still a very
small monent. I just remember working walking into my first
sea meeting where they all meet, that's all the seas across,
and just seeing a sea of blues pin striped suits
right with everyone. They all sit the same too. I
shouldn't say that, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (16:25):
But do you know?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Yeah? But there was a three or four of us,
and we said, well, let's lead in a different way.
Let's actually try and lead in the way let's talk
about our children's let's celebrate the fact that we are
mums or of it. If we're not mums, that you know,
we're human. Let's bring some of this authenticity and let's
support the woman coming up. Let's see that as our role.
(16:47):
And a group of us said, if we couldn't say
something polite and encouraging about a woman, we would not
talk about her at all. Does that kind of make sense?
So there was an unwritten rule because there's a sense
of we're not going to be pitted against each other,
We're not going to behave like that. We're acually go
on to set a code and we've going to model that.
And I think we're seeing that pay off, hopefully for
(17:07):
the next generation of women who can even lean into
it even more and be the leaders that they want
to be. So hats off to those women who broke
the ceilings. But now us, as middle aged women, we
have to create again the kind of leadership and kind
of impact we want as well. And there's enough of us,
and we're smart, and many of us have got resources,
(17:28):
and we're in positions. Yeah, we should unite and get
things sorted.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
And it would be wonderful if we've been able to
do that regarding the pay gap. But that is still
an issue facing women, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
It just gets me a bit angry.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, me too, me too, Come with you.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
I just can't believe we're still talking about it. And
it's not for having given it an awful lot of shove.
You would have many of you would have seen the
work that are co led onmind the gap. We really
got close to having the laws in place. We still
are working. I'm still working away in the background. I
won't give up up. I do not want my daughter
to She were times ticking right. So she's at university
(18:05):
and she's going to hit her first job in two
or three years. You want the protection that there's transparency,
that at least it's giving a shove. We know it works.
What we are learning is more and more about the
pay gap though, so I guess in the last few
years we've been able to pull the data apart and
see what their Pacific woman's pay gap is, what our
Mardy colleagues are pay gaps like, and more and more
(18:27):
we'll start to understand what it means for somebody who
is disabled. I think the pay gaps are just going
to be, you know, an absolute crime whom we can
get good data. For those who are neurodiverse, we're going
to see all sorts of different like humans just find
so many ways to discriminate against people based on who
they are, not what they do, and not how they perform.
(18:48):
That's the essence, right, you be paid for what you contribute,
not for some box that somebody's put you into. Right,
I think that all of us, if we're in positions
of power, if we lead people, have an opportunity to
tackle the pay gap. And it is just one decision
at a time across the country. So if you are listening,
and if you do have team leaders, make sure that
you have no gaps, that you nothing that you can't justify,
(19:11):
nothing that isn't completely rational in your team.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
From my experience, Joe, if I'm in a negotiation or
over a contract and paying things like that, I tend
to be so excited that I've got a job that
I forget to step back and be And I've got
better at it as i've got older. I've pushed back
and I've questioned things, and I've asked for more. But
I think a lot of the time we might get
(19:36):
a job offer and there might be some flexibility with workouts,
and we go, oh, that's so great, that's fantastic. You know,
as a mother, that's really helpful. So I'm hugely appreciative
of that. So I'll do yes, yes, yes, that's fine.
And I think I don't know if we're really all
that good. And I'm just speaking on my own behalf.
But I'm wondering with women as a whole, are really
good at actually stepping up and asking for that information?
Speaker 2 (19:57):
And what are my other equals getting paid?
Speaker 1 (20:00):
You know, we're just not really good at putting ourselves
out there and kind of being a bit more inquisitive
and demanding of our employers.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Demanding, I think is the right word. Actually, the research
would beck you we are likely to take the first offer,
And if you talk to anyone who's in a recruitment company,
they'll say the same thing. Women will take the first offer,
men will ask for the second or third. And I
think there's a lot into this, and I don't actually
think it's just us not wanting to be demanding. There's
very much a sense of if we did start to
(20:28):
be demanding, are we're always already putting ourselves in the
difficult woman category? And do you want to do that?
Are we going to be typecast and stereotyped as we go?
So there's a lot of things that are happening in
and around the context, but one of the most powerful
ways is actually to do your homework, know what the
job is worth, have done your research, looked at what
it's been advertised for. Ask the recruiter if there is
(20:51):
one or hr what the band is? You know, do
all your research or you're not going in there in
any way emotional. It's quite a rational business transaction that
you would expect. Take the emotion out of it and
go listen, this is what my research shows a job
and I am worth and don't say can I please
have it? I don't want to be difficult, but no,
(21:13):
I don't be difficult. Just make it a rational business
transaction because ultimately that's what it is. You're selling your
time and labor for a price, right, and just take
it like you might go on Hagel when you want
a discount off you know, your favorite shoes. Sometimes we
go and ask. Sometimes we don't. Just pretend it's your
favorite shoes and you want them, you want a bit
(21:33):
of discount off them.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
There you go, gosh, you know that you said that
band where bands do my head? And I'm in an
organization where it's all about bands, And it can be
the difference between you could do the same job that
give it a different name exactly, and you've.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Got to know those and they shouldn't be tricks like
you say.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
It should be tricks, and that's why there's a gender
paygapp right, because it's fascinating. When I talk to colleagues
who are very unionized and have lots of bands, they say, well,
we kind of protected from the gender pay gap, And
I said, we'll go and ask where people are situated
in what bands, and then where in the bands they
are and see if there's any patterns, and not surprisingly
(22:11):
there is. You're not necessarily protected by the structure. You
need to know where somebody of your experience would usually sit.
It is quite a rational transaction data gathering to do
that as well, and it can actually then be powerful
because you can argue upper band right, and that can
be quite a substantial jump too. So use it as
a tool for yourself as well.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
You're listening to the Little Things and our guest on
the podcast today is Joe kreb autho mentor and career coach,
amongst many other things. Will be back shortly after this break. Joe,
I've heard you talk about the motherhood penalty. Can you
tell us what that phrase means?
Speaker 3 (22:52):
It basically means that even though you have some time
off and often think about it, we often talk about
return to work and This makes me so angry because
I don't know anyone who's been at home with babies.
There's a lot of work involved, right, So you're not
returning to work, you're just doing a different type of work.
Actually probably an easier type of work when you can
(23:13):
go to the toilet by yourself and get a cup
of d actually finished the cup of tea was kind
of my experience. So the mother food penalty is that
if you do take time out from the workplace, when
you return, you often don't return at the same level
as your peers, so the work that you've done at
home isn't recognized, and often you'll go back in a
(23:34):
part time capacity and we pay a part time penalty.
We know again if the public service is a great
example because you can get the whole set of data
for the whole sector. Regardless, if you go back part time,
you're going to be paid ten percent less than your
colleagues at work full time. So there's these penalties built in,
right in terms of that you've lost or your I
guess any potential increments over the time that you're away,
(23:56):
and if you want to go back into sort of
a more part time perhaps even one inflexible. You're probably
going to be punished for it over a period of
time when we start to look at it, women don't
catch up to their male colleagues usually, and so over
a period of time you wear the mental motherhood penalty.
And we can start to see this in our key
we save our data. The Retirement Commission has done amazing work.
(24:18):
We were retiring, you know, with twenty thirty percent less
than somebody who've done a similar job. And now that
makes huge differences in our We have huge differences in
our life choices. Right, So yes, it's very clear, it's
very well researched, it's very evidence based, and I think
most of us have been through it. No, and I
guess if it experienced it.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
I mean, I'll share a personal anecdote which just blows
my mind. I left the workforce to have my Well,
I didn't leave the workforce today. I went to the
motherhood workforce in two thousand and four to have my
first child and cut me board. I was earning reasonable
money on a nice trajectory within a DHB setting. I
had three children in the end, did part time work
(25:00):
for various things, and then I went back at least thirteen,
fourteen years ago, and I went back on twenty to
the same job for twenty thousand dollars less, and I
have still not caught up to the salary that I
was on when I went on intentionally leave and real
dollar money. You know, that means I've gone significantly backwards
(25:21):
because he's twenty and that time. My husband just followed
the trajectory, right. I mean, he's not the same, he's
in the private sector, slightly different. But I just that's
when I get I always get terry when I think
about that, because I just, holy Guachamoley, it's just crazy.
But I'm also one of those people as Francesca was
(25:43):
talking about before that goes has justified it over and
over again. Because I'm part time. I get a bit
of travel with my job that I do. Now I've
gotten to go to conferences overseas and I've gotten to
do things. Wait a minute, If I'm worthy of going
to a conference overseas and speaking to an international audience,
I'm worthy of that salary on you know.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
So it's yeah, it.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Sounds like you I have to put your big deal
and you've got to have to do your research right,
and so rather than saying this and take all the
terry which I understand, out of it and just make
a business case for yourself and have a we chat.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Right, this is why we're talking to you. We need
this motivation job. I was just laughing. I was just
thinking the exact same thing going loo and I'm going
to have to have a really good talk to ourselves.
But this is partly why we're doing this too, Frenchy Skins,
because you know, we're not invisible, and.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
What is what is the worst that can happen? They say, no, oh,
do you know? Like I mean, obviously there and you
might have to think about what plan B is then,
But I mean the chances are if you are both
valued workers and every day we forget this. Every day
we're in a job, we're more valuable. We learn more,
we have connections, we're more of the brand, we're more
(26:50):
of the delivery. So every day you're more valuable. So yeah,
pitch it.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
I think too.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
When you return to work after having kids, there is
a bit of wave and self confidence sometimes, Joe, you're
getting back into it. You're trying to you are trying
to justify. Actually, I used to be very good at
this and I'm back, and that's fine. I can do
this while also having the mental load of carrying a
family and looking after children and things like that. So
I think that sometimes imposter syndrome or there's a little
(27:18):
bit of self doubt kind of creeps in. I think
that's very natural as well.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
Absolutely, I think about particularly my experience having two babies
quite quickly. Your body completely changes, right, and all the
sciences your mind has as well. You probably haven't slept well.
And I just think my children knew when I had
a big day coming up the next day, because that's
when they'd come and you know, they'd start crying at
(27:44):
three am in the morning. They're just knew. I think
it was there their gift to keep me on edge,
don't you think.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
Probably, Yeah, you're constantly I think we're constantly kind of
living in that we don't know what's coming next, in
terms of when somebody's gone to get sick, you know
when you're going to get there phone call.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
You're always constantly on edge. There isn't a lot of downtime,
and if there's downtime, you're probably sleeping. And all of
this is a completely heady mix. If you wrote it
down all the kind of conditions that you'd look at
it and say, well, that's kind of nearly torture, not sleeping,
not knowing what's on edge, when the lights are going
to go, and what are you going to you know,
and there's a lot to process because you're particularly for
(28:21):
well this is my experience. My husband was amazing. He
was at home for a few weeks and then he
went back to his life, do you know, And it's
you who kind of has to kind of juggle with
or you know, often doing the huge amount of the
emotional load as well on top of the load, so
it's actually heading mix. I just think me and we're
probably trying to keep our standards up too, like you know,
(28:42):
no piles of washing or you know, if the cat
is sick in the corner, you clean it up immediately.
Like I don't know, even higher standards than that. We're
putting a lot on ourselves. So I just I wish
we'd be easier on ourselves and go this is actually
just it would be tough for anyone. But I also
think imposter SINDO syndrome doesn't go away. And all the
people that I've talked to, men included, have it that
(29:04):
it does come, and I always think of it as
something sitting on my shoulder saying, we're going to catch
you out. Can I again? I can tell you that
if you ever think you've got a slightly mad I'll
give you a story that's even worse. So I did
my PhD when I had my two kids and I graduated,
and I was actually had done it quite quickly, and
I was quite proud of it. But I also when
(29:25):
I got the massive, big PhD certificate, I left it
in the drawer of my front dresser. But you know,
have you got one of those in the hallway where
you just all the crap goes? Anyway, I left it
in there because I just had this sneaky feeling that
university would come and ask for it back and it
should be near the front door.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Yeah, that's total right. So it taught me years to
be able to hang it up to go. Actually I
earned this because I think I was in that completely
fragile state right that you didn't quite believe you were
doing good work. We actually I always felt like I
was actually never doing anything well, kind of constant feeling
of never able to do anything. I know that feeling yeah,
And I just think we need to lean into it
(30:05):
and just go these periods of your life when actually
there's just going to be the reality, and the more
we can laugh about it and share about it and
not pretend that we've got it all together, because I
think there is a we kind of. I think even
as women, we share. Do you know, we make it
look good, like we put the bows on the presence, Like, really,
I could have been sitting having a glass of wine
rather than putting bows on presents for toddlers who don't care,
(30:27):
do you know? But I was. You're not doing it
for the toddlers, right, You're doing it to show that
I'm you know, look at me, I'm awesome, I'm coping.
Got it going on all levels. And really I think
we should just say, just, I don't know, take the
photo and put it on Instagram, Well what your lounge
actually looks like? And it's probably left like mine, it's
got a wreck with some mondays on it at the moment,
(30:48):
But would.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
You do that?
Speaker 2 (30:49):
I think a franchise gas too.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Yeah. We've talked over and over about and one thing
I think I've realized is with age is literally nothing
is linear, even our own fitness is not linear. Nothing
is linear, So why would our careers be, why would
our life at home be. It's just not like that.
It's a big muddley mess sometimes.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Absolutely, And the more we can share that, I think,
the more we're able to invite others, because I always
used to. Once I got to see I can remember
standing up and doing a really big keynote and saying,
and I was wearing a back then it was still
only like twenty twenty five. We wore dresses. I don't
think I've worn a dress since COVID kind of, but
I was wearing a dress, and I without any stockings.
(31:32):
It was summer, and I said to them, if you
look closely, you'll see my legs aren't shaped because I
haven't had time. But I think it's really important to
stand up to this big group of women and say
I haven't met the beauty standards of our day. And
everyone just laughed and laughed and laughed. But don't you
think that's important that we kind of do that? And
I even went to a meeting, an evening meeting where
(31:53):
again I was doing a big presentation, and I gone
home from work, cooked dinner. It spilt a bit of
tomato source on my thing, and I still went to
the meeting with it as an act of defiance.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Makes sense, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
And I have never felt so good standing up and
saying and owning the fact that I was a working mum.
And you know what, it isn't always perfect. And if
we can, for those of us in leadership positions and
feel confident enough to do it, if we're doing that,
do you know what, it just makes it. It makes
those roles more accessible too, because you don't have to
be this perfect superhuman because I don't know, I haven't
(32:26):
met one yet. And actually it gives us more opportunities, right,
You don't have to be perfect. You don't have to
wait until the kids at X or you've got this
under control. You can step into it because, as you say,
it's messy, imperfect. Sometimes it's damn right funny.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Sometimes really can be.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
I've just been to the fiftieth of a friend of
mine who I would say is, you know, my most corporate,
high level CFO. And she had this beautiful dinner with
I think seventeen or nineteen people there, and as she
introduced us, all she you know, I look at her
and go, wow, how on earth? Like she's just a dynamo,
(33:04):
right and got so much at fifty and so forth.
But when she introduced us, all she introduced us as
the people who've gotten her there, like literally everybody in
that room had contributed to where she is, just not
just in her job, but in her life. And it
was really moving. It was one of the best. And
I'm like, that's why she's still and what she's doing,
(33:25):
because she's.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
So good at this stuff.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
But I just left floating on a cloud, and as
did everybody there, because it was this appreciation and reality
of the village that it takes just to raise a child,
but to raise an adult. Absolutely, Joe, what if we
do if we get to a point we might have
been working twenty thirty, forty years and all of a
sudden you think this isn't really hugely fulfilling anymore.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
I would love to make a change. How do you
go about that? Where do you start thinking about it?
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Because it can be often just a lot easier to
stay where you are with what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Yeah. Absolutely, And unfortunately I think a lot of people
just do that, right, And I see so many people
who just go to work and it does make me sad.
I mean, there are financial realities and here people are
doing a great job because they're providing for their families,
and I just think that's amazing. But when I have
not surprisingly, I have a lot of coaching clients who
(34:22):
come to me and says, you know, life doesn't work.
What I always say is go back to your values.
And we don't actually think about them very much. We
think about what we're going to have for dinner and
are there enough sports socks to wear to the gym tomorrow?
Do you know? Like that's the and rightly so, because
that's really important and just to take that time to
sit back and say what do I actually really care about?
(34:43):
And there probably is only three or four things that
probably if you look back, they've been enduring, and the
chances are you've kind of drifted away from them if
you're feeling unsatisfied, so you perhaps your job or the
way you've structured your life is moving away from your values.
That's when we really if we move too far away,
that's where we really start to become you know, unhappy
(35:03):
or all the emotions come out. And we can see
that often we can see that in others, right you
can see they're in spaces where they're so far away
from who they are. So I think that's the point.
I know that sounds all woo woo and should light
a candle and dance around and sing folk songs or something,
but it is and I think and there are a
lot of tools online that can give you lists and
lists and lists of values. So just go and I
(35:25):
think that is a really good exercise. Take some time,
look at them, do it over a period of a
week or so, and then go and use it to
order to your life. Is my job now giving me
the opportunity to live to these values? Other way that
I'm doing things living to these values? And I just
think that's the anchor. Whether we like it or not.
We probably have made even consciously or consciously made choices
(35:46):
that take us there. But we can also drift away
from them. So yeah, I know that it sounds a
bit floaty. I think it's absolutely critical because then you've
got the rock to go. Okay, not if if I've
drifted away from them, what is going to take me back? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (36:05):
Well, I think half the problem is actually you know
you want to change, but you don't know what that changes.
So that's how that's how you start taking those steps
towards it. I think there are often lots of different
ways that we can change what we're doing, whether it's
going to your employer and going, look, I'm really loving
what I'm doing, but i'd like to I'd like to
step up. I'd like to go back and study. Can
I go part time? And you know, would you support
(36:27):
me in going to do some study or some retraining
or up skilling or something I'm you know, so you
might potentially sort of stay in the same job but
find get some new inspission. Because I think it's really
important that we are constantly learning.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Absolutely, and I couldn't agree more. And we often think
of study as this like school or university, so that's
this big formal weight that we take on, but I
actually think about I think we should think about learning
and you can do that quite easy. And a lot
of the education system are being developed so that they're
(37:02):
giving us bite sized knowledge as we go, so you
could even retrain and bite sized bits you don't. You know,
there's all sorts of opportunities here that goes back to
knowing what you want to do. But I also think
there's another piece. The world that we are going to
work in is only going to become more tech enabled,
and we can see that coming at us from everywhere
right whether we like it. Our phones are giving us
(37:24):
AI prompts continuously. Everything is going to have a basis
on it, and that's going to end up in our workplace.
So we are going to end up having to work
alongside all of us along AI assisted tools. We can
resist them, we can fight it, or we can understand
and be useful. The more discerning we are, the more
useful these tools will be. Or we may not choose to,
(37:46):
but at least we've lean into the conversation and there
is so much on offer of free, good, bite sized
learning to get our heads around what is when I
put something into CHETCHPD, what is it actually doing? I mean,
I have zero ten My tech assistant is my was
my eighteen year old son, and now he's gone to
university and I'm flying blind. Do you know we're at
(38:07):
that level of tech? But I've worked it out and
as soon as you kind of understand how clear it
is and what it can do, but also what it
can't do and why it's going to make mistakes. And
I'm starting to do a little online course on prompt engineering.
How can I get the best out of AI? So
I'm leaning into it. So you're kind of not afraid
when change in tools comes, you're going to be ready
(38:28):
to use them. And I just think all of us
need to think about our attitude towards tools and technology
and how we can use it to help us and
not be afraid. Right, it's only a tool.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Yeah, it's weird.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
I'm involved in participant based research, which anyone involved in
participant based research will realize how much it has changed.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
You used to beat. My boss used to say, I
don't understand.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
We just used to be able to phone someone at home,
you know, a mother post nationally. Have you got time
for an interviewer to come up visit, of course I have.
You know people don'ly answer their phones anymore. We're going
to have to get clever and use TikTok.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
Yep. Absolutely alien totally and you won't need to transcribe
anything again. I mean the hours and hours and hours
I did when I was doing my PhD transcribing. AI
will do it as you go, right, and all you're
doing is checking it, So it actually is going to
those kind of tools can make things easier for us.
But as you say, the way we might connect with
people is going to be quite different, all through different mediums,
(39:28):
and we need to have our heads around this. And
I'll take it back to being I guess a middle
aged woman in the workplace. The stereotype is that will
be the ones that are frightened like that man. We
got to don that, like, how can this make my
life easier? Right? We should be thinking what's in this
for me, what's not? And for me what are the
opportunities here? But also what's the downside? And there are
(39:49):
downsides and being part of the conversation and decision making
around these tools rather than having the world done to
us because we haven't got this far to take that.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
I agree, well I did.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
I did have a little giggle to myself when I
read the title of your latest book, Don't Worry about
the robots, because I do worry about the robots. So
this is obviously perfectly aimed for me how to survive
and thrive in the new world of work.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
That's really really good advice.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Joe, Hey, could we finish off by just talking about
how do we value women's unpaid work? How do we
celebrate the contribution of mothers.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
Yeah, it's for me, it was. It's kind of the
one of the last big hurdles. Does that kind of
make sense? And I don't even think it's even It's
more than motherhood, right, it's the emotional labor that women
do in the workplace of you seen one of your
male colleagues by a farewell gift.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
Do you know? So it's the it's the invisible glue
that holds I think the planet together is women unpaid
emotional labor, and it's invisible, right, and it's taken for granted.
And as you say, it's raising the next generation of humanity.
Not to say we don't have amazing dads. I think
(41:13):
we are seeing a movement there in more and more
dads wanting to be involved. But there still is a default, right,
and there still is a whole lot of norms around
that we still don't have. Even though they can, men
don't tend to take their parental leave. I just think
it's way more than it's the emotional load of who
organizes Christmas, who gets to get togethers, who looks after
(41:34):
people when they're sick, And if we could. I think
that we need to kind of make it visible, is
my sense. I think that's the first step. And we
did have a time use survey in New Zealand in
the nineteen nineties. We did it once and it was
so enlightening. So people are that, you know, thousands of
thousands of people given diaries and asked to write down exactly
what they did all day, and it shed a light
on just how much was happening in and around our
(41:56):
communities and how important that was. I have advocated that
we do it again because unless we see it, we
can't and quantify it and make it visible. All this
amazing work isn't valued, right because it just happens.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
It just seems like something that should happen each decade.
I'm omened for that. I'll participate.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Yeah, I'll run it, I'll do it.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
Yeah. I also think that amazing work that happens, say
in our Pacific and Mali communities, in their amazing volume
of work and productivity that happens here, that isn't necessarily
measured by our GDP. Again, it's just making what actually
happens and what actually matters invisible again, right, So the
only thing that we really see data on is when
(42:40):
we've been paid an hour, and that just is such
a small piece of what happens in this amazing country.
Speaker 4 (42:48):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
We're all about the little things and making small little
changes in our lives rather than trying to sort of
turn them upside down and everything. So, just to finish off,
if you were going to give one little piece of
advice to women, maybe middle laid women who are sort
of thinking about their careers at the moment and where
they want to go and where they're sitting right now,
what would you say to them?
Speaker 3 (43:07):
I would say, poor, a very nice glass of chardonnay
or sev one evening or a non alcoholic substitute, and
google values and spend some time on your own working
out what you actually care for care about, and then
do an audit of your life and say, am I
being true to myself? And then take the next step
(43:29):
in the areas where you're not. And I think it's
a really good investment and we should do it quite often,
if not leave it to the point where we're tired
and a bit burnt out. So just I think we
look after everyone else, but I think we need to
spend that little time in saying we're going to be stronger,
we're going to be better, we're going to make more
of an impact, We're going to make more of a
(43:49):
difference if we're actually being true to ourselves.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
And I love that because if you do do that,
I'm going to do that. I think you probably find
that there are aspects of your life where you are
really true to yourself. So it's not going to be
a one thing. Oh I've got to throw it all out.
It's going to be a oh I need to tweak
that or I need to Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
Sure, and it's unlikely to be Thelma and Louise though
if it is, but no, it and what it just
does is take us back to how we are going
to be the best version of us as if we
are being true to ourselves.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
Joe, it has been such a delight to get to
know you. Thank you so much for your time. We
really really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
Oh, it's been an extent pleasure. And thank you for
the amazing work that you were doing.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
I so enjoyed meeting Joe. Louise. I am absolutely going
to pick up her book.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Her latest book is called Don't Worry About the Robots,
How To survive and thrive in the new world of
work because I am. I am worried about the robots,
and I need to I need to be working on
future proofing my career. Look, I could have avoided it
till the cows come home, but the way she spoke
about it made me want to embrace it. Actually, she
was refreshing, honest, yes and positive. I guess this is
(45:03):
the thing I'll take away about and I love her
attitude towards middle aged women in their careers.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
It's time, It's our time. I just like the way
she went.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Don't think about being invisible, don't think about being ignored
at work.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Get yourself out there, front and center. Work out what
you want, go for it, use.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
That lovely little ledge that we get and look, we
no longer know feel the need to please everybody.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
And you know, I will.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Be doing the values exercise and I'll be encouraging my
daughter to do that too as she sets out on
her studies for next year. Thanks for joining us on
our New Zealand Herald podcast series, The Little Things. We
hope you share this podcast with the women in your
lives so we can all get a little bit more stoppy.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
And demanding of our employers. Nice.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and for more on this and other topics,
head to enzet Herald dot co dot nzet and we'll
catch you next time on the Little Things
Hi, I'm Francesca Rudkin and I'm Louise Aria. And this
is season three of our New Zealand hei podcast The
Little Things, a podcast where we talk to experts and
find out all the little things you need to know
to improve all areas of your life and cut through
the confusion and overload of information out there, because we
all know how overwhelming it can be. Today, we're going
to talk about women and our careers and the challenges
(00:30):
we face from progressing our careers in middle age, juggling
the paid and unpaid workwomen do, and having the courage
to make a change and maybe, you know, find that
job that's a bit more fulfilling.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Did you always know what you wanted to do?
Speaker 3 (00:41):
No?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Just do you know now what you want to do? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I want to lie on a beach, But in previous
episodes we found that that's actually not good for us
long term.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
No.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
I guess the more I investigate these things, the more
digiti or yeah, I get itchy feet. So I'm not finished.
I have got something else in me, and I just
don't know what it is. I never knew what I
wanted to do. I always admired those people who at
the age of ten, said I'm going to be a
doctor or I'm going to be a farmer. And they
knew exactly what they were going to do, and then
(01:14):
they went off and did it. They kind of annoyed
me as well a little bit. I never had any
idea what I wanted to do, so I went to university,
studied something I was interested in, and then completely stumbled
into television and sort of got an apprenticeship and learned
on the job. And if I hadn't, if they just
hadn't been that opportunity, I don't know what I would
(01:34):
be doing right now. I think we probably both studied
in that time where it wasn't necessarily a vocational thing,
and I think the pressure is on now for it.
It was more affordable, it was a little bit moreable,
more affordable. It's quite funny, though, because we both have
teenagers who are finishing school this year, and we go
out of our way not to ask their friends what
(01:56):
they're going to do next year, not out of not
out of a lack of but because of that pressure
on young people to know what they want to do
and where they want to go.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I just think it's so tough.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Well, I witnessed it with my twenty year old. He's
in a third year of his degree now, but I
witnessed it when he was in year thirteen. And I've
vowed and declared, and I said to you, I'm not
going to ask that question of any year thirteen's going forward.
It is the natural question. Every single person asks it
of my daughter, and she's not even one hundred percent sure,
(02:26):
and it's, you know, getting close to making a decision.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
It's stressful. It is stressful. Are you happy with where
you're at in your career?
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I am most of the time. When I start doing
research for things like this FRENCHISCA. And it was the
same with the mental old episode, I start, a little
bit of feminist anger does build up in me, a
little bit about just the way things have turned out,
and perhaps that I haven't made decisions. I've gone with
(02:54):
the flow a little much, you know, a little too much. Yeah,
I think, I said to you. You know, I'm working
for the same salary I was on in two thousand
and four when I went on maternity leave, probably responsible
for managing more money for the organization, research outputs, all
that kind of thing. And yeah, it's not It's fulfilling,
(03:15):
but not financially fulfilling, and that is one of the
things we're going to talk about today.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I think, what about you. Yeah, I'm happy with where
I'm at. That's good.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
But you know, it required me to, like, I'm loving
radio and this is a relatively new career for me.
I've only been doing it for five years, and it
took a lot of courage to say yes to it.
You know, Like I got the call when I was
in my mid forties, mid to late forties, someone saying, Hey,
(03:45):
would you like to give this a go? Would you
like to work over the summer in a holiday show.
It's a very simple show. Would you like to give
it a go? Every part of me was going, no,
that's terrifying, but I knew I hate to say yes. Immediately.
I knew I couldn't think about it. I knew that
this was a really amazing opportunity. They don't come along
very often, and even though it terrified me, I knew
(04:07):
I just had to say yes.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I know.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
I remember I remember talking about it on a run
or something, and You're like, I've got to do all
the buttons.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
I was like, this is ridiculous. They're going to let
me do this nationwide show.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
I have no idea what I'm doing, and I can
remember just before that show started, that first show, I
remember sitting here at the desk going, Okay, are they
going to sink or swim? Right, I'm just going to swim.
I'm just going to do this and I'm going to swim.
And you know, over time, more work came and I've
been able to sort of start a new career in
my mid to late forties, which you know, I'm very,
(04:41):
very fortunate about, but.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
It did take quite a big, sort of.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Courageous fay to do it and yourself, Yeah, yeah, totally.
So look to give us some inspiration and information on
how to advance our careers, future proof our careers, find
the right career. We're joined by Joe crib today. Joe
is an Experience oriens chief executive, a board member, a strategist,
a gender and policy experts. He's also a coach and
a career mentor and co author of books such as
(05:08):
Take Your Space, Successful Women share their Secrets and Don't
Worry about the Robots, How to survive and thrive in
the New World of work. Welcome Joe, Thanks for being
with us.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Oh, Curra, it's my absolute delight.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Lovely to me.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
You, Hey, look, could we start with you telling us
a little about your career, Joe, because it's quite a
CV and you know what kind of interesting sort of
challenges you face during your career.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Well, the first thing, looking at it, it probably looks
very coherent, but when you're in the midst of it,
it didn't seem at all like that at all. So
I started out in my first roles, going to Wellington
to work in policy roles, and I was I guess
I had that young twenties gosh, I was going to
change the world where, whether it liked or not, kind
of erving was lucky enough to move up the ranks.
(05:53):
I had my first team leader job when I was
about twenty seven twenty eight, and I was absolutely rubbish
at it. I was the youngest person and in the team,
trying to prove myself, trying to be perfect at everything,
and luckily some of those team members when I bump
into them, are polite enough not to cross the road.
I then was in. I guess I looked around my
(06:15):
industry that I was working in. It was the public service.
It was twenty years ago, and there were very few women,
and you did never talked about your children, and it
was not an environment that was going to be particularly
friendly if I wanted to have children. My partner and
I decided to. So I took a side step out
and did my PhD while I had two children, and
I was very lucky that they arrived sort of when
(06:37):
I want to, and I just want to acknowledge that
that doesn't happen for everyone. And what it really did
is just buy me the time to be a mum,
because I don't think the system where I was operating,
particularly with in a team leader kind of role, fast
moving policy, was in any way going to help me.
I then went back after my doctorate and went into
a general manager role again. I think I had my
(07:00):
first actual I think we need to talk about it,
quite honestly. So I had two children, two toddlers, again
trying to be perfect, do you know, the perfect house.
I would stay up at night and wrap presents for
all the thousands of parties the kids would go to
because they're in daycare and put ribbons on them, and
as well as trying to be the perfect manager and
(07:20):
the perfect everything. And I literally got to the point
it didn't take very long where I one day got
out of bed, called my boss and said, I can't
do this anymore. And I think some of us reached
that and some of us don't, but I think I
was brave enough to ring up and said something has
to change. Either I have to give up trying to
be perfect in every aspect, or I have to find
(07:42):
a different way particularly of doing the job, or maybe
I should just quit and do something easier. I was
lucky enough to be accepted into a leadership development program,
which sounds very ironic, but basically they broke you down
and said what does good leadership? And good leadership isn't
trying to be the best and perfect everything. It actually
is creating an environment where people thrive. And it took
(08:03):
a whole lot of letting go and trust and all
sorts of things, but I did step up into that space.
And then you don't have to work a million hours
and have the whole I guess organization on your shoulders.
So that was a particularly stressful and difficult time. I
then was able to step up into more I guess
sing your roles, with the last role being a see
(08:23):
of the ministry for women. When I did that, my
husband and I decided we'd have five years on five
years off. So he took heeded his PhD. I'd just
like to say, for the record, took him five years.
Mine took two and a half. When I was doing
it part time, do you think there's a wee bit
of focus here, Like there's nothing like having to breastfeed
at two o'clock to get your PhD down.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Don't you think those soft skills of mother and come
into place.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
So there's a focus, there's a I would when I
was at the ministry for a woman, I sought out
woman who wanted to work part time because I think
they would just come and laser focused perform. They're amazing.
So rather than seeing part time as a as something negative,
I went searching for it and we just created an organization.
We mainly had a on Wednesday everybody should be in
(09:09):
so that we have some connection. And then then it
didn't matter when people work, and by gosh, we performed.
So yeah, and so interestingly, I had the five years
and then we sort of jiggled. I've had enough of
the big roles. I stepped back into it and started
my own consulting business, he stepped up into more technical roles.
I was still around, if that makes sense. I run
(09:30):
my own business, and I think through my teenage kids
years it was really important that often come into my
office and download, which I don't think they would do
if we were both not in the house. So I
think that kind of protected us through those years. And
now they're both off at university and only rang when
they want money.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
I feel that thank you so much for explaining that,
because you did right, I would have not you know,
I was reading about you, and I would never have
known all the trials and tribulations, in the ups and
downs that you've had to go through to be we
who are at today.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
The conversations and decisions that you have to make.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
You know, Yeah, and there is I guess trade offs
and choices and what I think there is is a
lot of learning for me. If I wanted to be
in those senior roles. I completely had to rethink about
what leadership was, which isn't easy, right, So you need
to let it go. Let go of all the things
you're actually good at, which I was quite good at
technical stuff. Let it go and then learn how to
be a good creative environment where people could thrive. And
(10:29):
it's a completely different skill set and you're doing this
and you haven't really had a good night's sleep for
five or six years. So I just think we need
to just share that. It isn't all Rosie and I
have got some of stories I'd like to share that
just keep it real. One of my roles was the
Deputy Children's Commissioner, a role I loved. We're doing some
work on child poverty and we were briefing the Prime
(10:50):
Minister in a very small room in Parliament and I
was quite close to him, and then I walked out
and I'd missed a call from daycare. I had to
go and pick the kids up because both of them
are riddled in knits and so was I, and I
probably gavens to the Prime Minister and his advices. I
think we're probably you've got to keep it real, right,
(11:11):
And it.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Didn't forgotten about it at.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
The time, did it? And then on our bathroom mirror
we had to because my husband is an engineer, so
we had post it notes and when we had to
comb and it was too weak, trying to get these
little yeah you can out of our lives right, and
and one you get the girl like, how did I
miss it? Because they had quite light and how did
I miss it? And then how did I get it?
(11:35):
Of course you had your kids, and I'm sorry, so
sir john Key, if you if you.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Ever got that, if you wondered where they came from.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
And the course of your meeting, it was probably me.
I'll confess now.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
I have PTSD with It's remember one of my children,
they had them on and off for two years. They
were in the same classroom for two years. And and
this kid claims that they were They were in the
you know, they put the carpet on the walls, and
they used to sit with the head against the That's
where they came from.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
And that's like I don't know. But my goodness too.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Isn't there too that it's not It's just one of
those things like the like the eyes they get what's
the one where the eyes get or some CONJUNCTI. Oh, yeah,
we've had a lot of fat we had doing keynote
presentations with you know, big panda eyes, Joe.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
What generally happens to women in the workplace when they
hit middle age.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Well, there's a lot of myths around that we become invisible.
And I do think there is ageism in the workplace.
I do think there is something, and I just can
I just speak from my experience. We get to the
point where you really are very focused on what you
care about. You know, you care less about what less
(12:50):
people you do, care less about what people think. You know,
you've got a certain amount of time left on the planet.
You want to make the difference in the area. We
actually become more more determined and more discerning. I'd like
to throw a little bit of perimenopause and menopause in there,
which can give you a nice little edge. I sometimes
think it's I wish I had that when I was twenty.
(13:11):
You know, their edge, Yeah, I agree, and you stop
sort of being the nice girl. So in some ways,
I think we should be a superpower. So I think
we should reframe this what happens to women in middle
life as they become invisible. I think we should be
taking our space more because we are so skilled, so experts,
so focused, and we're not going to take it. We're
not gonna put up with anything. We're like the perfect employees, really,
(13:33):
So that's certainly been my experience, and I just intend
to keep stepping up, right. I can see the space,
can see what's needed. I'm just going to get on
and do it. So yeah, I just banish the myths, right,
they're just trying to control us and put us in boxes.
Let's just smash them.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Love it.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
So is it then our responsibility to express that to
our employers.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Absolutely, if you've got some ambition, if you've got something
you want to do, like you were in your twenties,
you would have said what you wanted. Why would we
stop doing it now? In fact, we're in a much
better position. We often don't have as many child care responsibilities.
Often we are able to take more risks. In fact,
if you look at the research, some of the most
(14:15):
successful businesses are started by a women in their forties
and fifties. So I do think we have to fight
the images that are coming at us that we're aging
and there's something wrong with us and we're kind of dowdy,
because I don't know any middle aged women that are
to know. Yeah, I just think it's a controlled It's
another part of just being controlled, right, and we should
(14:38):
just step right the way through it with a smile
on our face and probably bright red lipstick.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
You said something earlier about the beginning of your career
feeling like you know that one person can make a
difference kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
I was begging then.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
I was always being told, Luise, one person can't make
the difference. And I was going home all through my
sort of late twenties in my career about that, right,
And then I think I did lose that and kind
of just went into the meanly of life and jaded
is the best way to describe it. And I think
you're onto something with the menopause thing too, because you
go back to going, well, if I don't try and
(15:13):
make a difference, what's the point? And you dropped the
people pleasing but enhance my compassion, I think.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Mate, absolutely, absolutely, And I have a daughter and I
want her not to have some of the experiences I
had coming in the workplace. I sit there and think
about it when we've looked too older, and you know,
the generation above or often in the leadership positions while
they're not, because we are the generation above and we
need to stand there and stand strong. When I was
(15:45):
coming up through I guess the leadership ranks there was
like a little handful of women like three when I
were looking three or four and they didn't have good reputations.
They were probably tarred with them more male than male
kind of brush. And when I look back at them,
they were absolutely pioneers, right, I think my hat off
to them. Amazing, But I mean, there wasn't There was
(16:07):
probably when I was chief executives, probably four or five
of us out of thirty, so we're still a very
small monent. I just remember working walking into my first
sea meeting where they all meet, that's all the seas across,
and just seeing a sea of blues pin striped suits
right with everyone. They all sit the same too. I
shouldn't say that, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (16:25):
But do you know?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Yeah? But there was a three or four of us,
and we said, well, let's lead in a different way.
Let's actually try and lead in the way let's talk
about our children's let's celebrate the fact that we are
mums or of it. If we're not mums, that you know,
we're human. Let's bring some of this authenticity and let's
support the woman coming up. Let's see that as our role.
(16:47):
And a group of us said, if we couldn't say
something polite and encouraging about a woman, we would not
talk about her at all. Does that kind of make sense?
So there was an unwritten rule because there's a sense
of we're not going to be pitted against each other,
We're not going to behave like that. We're acually go
on to set a code and we've going to model that.
And I think we're seeing that pay off, hopefully for
(17:07):
the next generation of women who can even lean into
it even more and be the leaders that they want
to be. So hats off to those women who broke
the ceilings. But now us, as middle aged women, we
have to create again the kind of leadership and kind
of impact we want as well. And there's enough of us,
and we're smart, and many of us have got resources,
(17:28):
and we're in positions. Yeah, we should unite and get
things sorted.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
And it would be wonderful if we've been able to
do that regarding the pay gap. But that is still
an issue facing women, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
It just gets me a bit angry.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, me too, me too, Come with you.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
I just can't believe we're still talking about it. And
it's not for having given it an awful lot of shove.
You would have many of you would have seen the
work that are co led onmind the gap. We really
got close to having the laws in place. We still
are working. I'm still working away in the background. I
won't give up up. I do not want my daughter
to She were times ticking right. So she's at university
(18:05):
and she's going to hit her first job in two
or three years. You want the protection that there's transparency,
that at least it's giving a shove. We know it works.
What we are learning is more and more about the
pay gap though, so I guess in the last few
years we've been able to pull the data apart and
see what their Pacific woman's pay gap is, what our
Mardy colleagues are pay gaps like, and more and more
(18:27):
we'll start to understand what it means for somebody who
is disabled. I think the pay gaps are just going
to be, you know, an absolute crime whom we can
get good data. For those who are neurodiverse, we're going
to see all sorts of different like humans just find
so many ways to discriminate against people based on who
they are, not what they do, and not how they perform.
(18:48):
That's the essence, right, you be paid for what you contribute,
not for some box that somebody's put you into. Right,
I think that all of us, if we're in positions
of power, if we lead people, have an opportunity to
tackle the pay gap. And it is just one decision
at a time across the country. So if you are listening,
and if you do have team leaders, make sure that
you have no gaps, that you nothing that you can't justify,
(19:11):
nothing that isn't completely rational in your team.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
From my experience, Joe, if I'm in a negotiation or
over a contract and paying things like that, I tend
to be so excited that I've got a job that
I forget to step back and be And I've got
better at it as i've got older. I've pushed back
and I've questioned things, and I've asked for more. But
I think a lot of the time we might get
(19:36):
a job offer and there might be some flexibility with workouts,
and we go, oh, that's so great, that's fantastic. You know,
as a mother, that's really helpful. So I'm hugely appreciative
of that. So I'll do yes, yes, yes, that's fine.
And I think I don't know if we're really all
that good. And I'm just speaking on my own behalf.
But I'm wondering with women as a whole, are really
good at actually stepping up and asking for that information?
Speaker 2 (19:57):
And what are my other equals getting paid?
Speaker 1 (20:00):
You know, we're just not really good at putting ourselves
out there and kind of being a bit more inquisitive
and demanding of our employers.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Demanding, I think is the right word. Actually, the research
would beck you we are likely to take the first offer,
And if you talk to anyone who's in a recruitment company,
they'll say the same thing. Women will take the first offer,
men will ask for the second or third. And I
think there's a lot into this, and I don't actually
think it's just us not wanting to be demanding. There's
very much a sense of if we did start to
(20:28):
be demanding, are we're always already putting ourselves in the
difficult woman category? And do you want to do that?
Are we going to be typecast and stereotyped as we go?
So there's a lot of things that are happening in
and around the context, but one of the most powerful
ways is actually to do your homework, know what the
job is worth, have done your research, looked at what
it's been advertised for. Ask the recruiter if there is
(20:51):
one or hr what the band is? You know, do
all your research or you're not going in there in
any way emotional. It's quite a rational business transaction that
you would expect. Take the emotion out of it and
go listen, this is what my research shows a job
and I am worth and don't say can I please
have it? I don't want to be difficult, but no,
(21:13):
I don't be difficult. Just make it a rational business
transaction because ultimately that's what it is. You're selling your
time and labor for a price, right, and just take
it like you might go on Hagel when you want
a discount off you know, your favorite shoes. Sometimes we
go and ask. Sometimes we don't. Just pretend it's your
favorite shoes and you want them, you want a bit
(21:33):
of discount off them.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
There you go, gosh, you know that you said that
band where bands do my head? And I'm in an
organization where it's all about bands, And it can be
the difference between you could do the same job that
give it a different name exactly, and you've.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Got to know those and they shouldn't be tricks like
you say.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
It should be tricks, and that's why there's a gender
paygapp right, because it's fascinating. When I talk to colleagues
who are very unionized and have lots of bands, they say, well,
we kind of protected from the gender pay gap, And
I said, we'll go and ask where people are situated
in what bands, and then where in the bands they
are and see if there's any patterns, and not surprisingly
(22:11):
there is. You're not necessarily protected by the structure. You
need to know where somebody of your experience would usually sit.
It is quite a rational transaction data gathering to do
that as well, and it can actually then be powerful
because you can argue upper band right, and that can
be quite a substantial jump too. So use it as
a tool for yourself as well.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
You're listening to the Little Things and our guest on
the podcast today is Joe kreb autho mentor and career coach,
amongst many other things. Will be back shortly after this break. Joe,
I've heard you talk about the motherhood penalty. Can you
tell us what that phrase means?
Speaker 3 (22:52):
It basically means that even though you have some time
off and often think about it, we often talk about
return to work and This makes me so angry because
I don't know anyone who's been at home with babies.
There's a lot of work involved, right, So you're not
returning to work, you're just doing a different type of work.
Actually probably an easier type of work when you can
(23:13):
go to the toilet by yourself and get a cup
of d actually finished the cup of tea was kind
of my experience. So the mother food penalty is that
if you do take time out from the workplace, when
you return, you often don't return at the same level
as your peers, so the work that you've done at
home isn't recognized, and often you'll go back in a
(23:34):
part time capacity and we pay a part time penalty.
We know again if the public service is a great
example because you can get the whole set of data
for the whole sector. Regardless, if you go back part time,
you're going to be paid ten percent less than your
colleagues at work full time. So there's these penalties built in,
right in terms of that you've lost or your I
guess any potential increments over the time that you're away,
(23:56):
and if you want to go back into sort of
a more part time perhaps even one inflexible. You're probably
going to be punished for it over a period of
time when we start to look at it, women don't
catch up to their male colleagues usually, and so over
a period of time you wear the mental motherhood penalty.
And we can start to see this in our key
we save our data. The Retirement Commission has done amazing work.
(24:18):
We were retiring, you know, with twenty thirty percent less
than somebody who've done a similar job. And now that
makes huge differences in our We have huge differences in
our life choices. Right, So yes, it's very clear, it's
very well researched, it's very evidence based, and I think
most of us have been through it. No, and I
guess if it experienced it.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
I mean, I'll share a personal anecdote which just blows
my mind. I left the workforce to have my Well,
I didn't leave the workforce today. I went to the
motherhood workforce in two thousand and four to have my
first child and cut me board. I was earning reasonable
money on a nice trajectory within a DHB setting. I
had three children in the end, did part time work
(25:00):
for various things, and then I went back at least thirteen,
fourteen years ago, and I went back on twenty to
the same job for twenty thousand dollars less, and I
have still not caught up to the salary that I
was on when I went on intentionally leave and real
dollar money. You know, that means I've gone significantly backwards
(25:21):
because he's twenty and that time. My husband just followed
the trajectory, right. I mean, he's not the same, he's
in the private sector, slightly different. But I just that's
when I get I always get terry when I think
about that, because I just, holy Guachamoley, it's just crazy.
But I'm also one of those people as Francesca was
(25:43):
talking about before that goes has justified it over and
over again. Because I'm part time. I get a bit
of travel with my job that I do. Now I've
gotten to go to conferences overseas and I've gotten to
do things. Wait a minute, If I'm worthy of going
to a conference overseas and speaking to an international audience,
I'm worthy of that salary on you know.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
So it's yeah, it.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Sounds like you I have to put your big deal
and you've got to have to do your research right,
and so rather than saying this and take all the
terry which I understand, out of it and just make
a business case for yourself and have a we chat.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Right, this is why we're talking to you. We need
this motivation job. I was just laughing. I was just
thinking the exact same thing going loo and I'm going
to have to have a really good talk to ourselves.
But this is partly why we're doing this too, Frenchy Skins,
because you know, we're not invisible, and.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
What is what is the worst that can happen? They say, no, oh,
do you know? Like I mean, obviously there and you
might have to think about what plan B is then,
But I mean the chances are if you are both
valued workers and every day we forget this. Every day
we're in a job, we're more valuable. We learn more,
we have connections, we're more of the brand, we're more
(26:50):
of the delivery. So every day you're more valuable. So yeah,
pitch it.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
I think too.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
When you return to work after having kids, there is
a bit of wave and self confidence sometimes, Joe, you're
getting back into it. You're trying to you are trying
to justify. Actually, I used to be very good at
this and I'm back, and that's fine. I can do
this while also having the mental load of carrying a
family and looking after children and things like that. So
I think that sometimes imposter syndrome or there's a little
(27:18):
bit of self doubt kind of creeps in. I think
that's very natural as well.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
Absolutely, I think about particularly my experience having two babies
quite quickly. Your body completely changes, right, and all the
sciences your mind has as well. You probably haven't slept well.
And I just think my children knew when I had
a big day coming up the next day, because that's
when they'd come and you know, they'd start crying at
(27:44):
three am in the morning. They're just knew. I think
it was there their gift to keep me on edge,
don't you think.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
Probably, Yeah, you're constantly I think we're constantly kind of
living in that we don't know what's coming next, in
terms of when somebody's gone to get sick, you know
when you're going to get there phone call.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
You're always constantly on edge. There isn't a lot of downtime,
and if there's downtime, you're probably sleeping. And all of
this is a completely heady mix. If you wrote it
down all the kind of conditions that you'd look at
it and say, well, that's kind of nearly torture, not sleeping,
not knowing what's on edge, when the lights are going
to go, and what are you going to you know,
and there's a lot to process because you're particularly for
(28:21):
well this is my experience. My husband was amazing. He
was at home for a few weeks and then he
went back to his life, do you know, And it's
you who kind of has to kind of juggle with
or you know, often doing the huge amount of the
emotional load as well on top of the load, so
it's actually heading mix. I just think me and we're
probably trying to keep our standards up too, like you know,
(28:42):
no piles of washing or you know, if the cat
is sick in the corner, you clean it up immediately.
Like I don't know, even higher standards than that. We're
putting a lot on ourselves. So I just I wish
we'd be easier on ourselves and go this is actually
just it would be tough for anyone. But I also
think imposter SINDO syndrome doesn't go away. And all the
people that I've talked to, men included, have it that
(29:04):
it does come, and I always think of it as
something sitting on my shoulder saying, we're going to catch
you out. Can I again? I can tell you that
if you ever think you've got a slightly mad I'll
give you a story that's even worse. So I did
my PhD when I had my two kids and I graduated,
and I was actually had done it quite quickly, and
I was quite proud of it. But I also when
(29:25):
I got the massive, big PhD certificate, I left it
in the drawer of my front dresser. But you know,
have you got one of those in the hallway where
you just all the crap goes? Anyway, I left it
in there because I just had this sneaky feeling that
university would come and ask for it back and it
should be near the front door.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Yeah, that's total right. So it taught me years to
be able to hang it up to go. Actually I
earned this because I think I was in that completely
fragile state right that you didn't quite believe you were
doing good work. We actually I always felt like I
was actually never doing anything well, kind of constant feeling
of never able to do anything. I know that feeling yeah,
And I just think we need to lean into it
(30:05):
and just go these periods of your life when actually
there's just going to be the reality, and the more
we can laugh about it and share about it and
not pretend that we've got it all together, because I
think there is a we kind of. I think even
as women, we share. Do you know, we make it
look good, like we put the bows on the presence, Like, really,
I could have been sitting having a glass of wine
rather than putting bows on presents for toddlers who don't care,
(30:27):
do you know? But I was. You're not doing it
for the toddlers, right, You're doing it to show that
I'm you know, look at me, I'm awesome, I'm coping.
Got it going on all levels. And really I think
we should just say, just, I don't know, take the
photo and put it on Instagram, Well what your lounge
actually looks like? And it's probably left like mine, it's
got a wreck with some mondays on it at the moment,
(30:48):
But would.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
You do that?
Speaker 2 (30:49):
I think a franchise gas too.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Yeah. We've talked over and over about and one thing
I think I've realized is with age is literally nothing
is linear, even our own fitness is not linear. Nothing
is linear, So why would our careers be, why would
our life at home be. It's just not like that.
It's a big muddley mess sometimes.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Absolutely, And the more we can share that, I think,
the more we're able to invite others, because I always
used to. Once I got to see I can remember
standing up and doing a really big keynote and saying,
and I was wearing a back then it was still
only like twenty twenty five. We wore dresses. I don't
think I've worn a dress since COVID kind of, but
I was wearing a dress, and I without any stockings.
(31:32):
It was summer, and I said to them, if you
look closely, you'll see my legs aren't shaped because I
haven't had time. But I think it's really important to
stand up to this big group of women and say
I haven't met the beauty standards of our day. And
everyone just laughed and laughed and laughed. But don't you
think that's important that we kind of do that? And
I even went to a meeting, an evening meeting where
(31:53):
again I was doing a big presentation, and I gone
home from work, cooked dinner. It spilt a bit of
tomato source on my thing, and I still went to
the meeting with it as an act of defiance.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Makes sense, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
And I have never felt so good standing up and
saying and owning the fact that I was a working mum.
And you know what, it isn't always perfect. And if
we can, for those of us in leadership positions and
feel confident enough to do it, if we're doing that,
do you know what, it just makes it. It makes
those roles more accessible too, because you don't have to
be this perfect superhuman because I don't know, I haven't
(32:26):
met one yet. And actually it gives us more opportunities, right,
You don't have to be perfect. You don't have to
wait until the kids at X or you've got this
under control. You can step into it because, as you say,
it's messy, imperfect. Sometimes it's damn right funny.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Sometimes really can be.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
I've just been to the fiftieth of a friend of
mine who I would say is, you know, my most corporate,
high level CFO. And she had this beautiful dinner with
I think seventeen or nineteen people there, and as she
introduced us, all she you know, I look at her
and go, wow, how on earth? Like she's just a dynamo,
(33:04):
right and got so much at fifty and so forth.
But when she introduced us, all she introduced us as
the people who've gotten her there, like literally everybody in
that room had contributed to where she is, just not
just in her job, but in her life. And it
was really moving. It was one of the best. And
I'm like, that's why she's still and what she's doing,
(33:25):
because she's.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
So good at this stuff.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
But I just left floating on a cloud, and as
did everybody there, because it was this appreciation and reality
of the village that it takes just to raise a child,
but to raise an adult. Absolutely, Joe, what if we
do if we get to a point we might have
been working twenty thirty, forty years and all of a
sudden you think this isn't really hugely fulfilling anymore.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
I would love to make a change. How do you
go about that? Where do you start thinking about it?
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Because it can be often just a lot easier to
stay where you are with what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Yeah. Absolutely, And unfortunately I think a lot of people
just do that, right, And I see so many people
who just go to work and it does make me sad.
I mean, there are financial realities and here people are
doing a great job because they're providing for their families,
and I just think that's amazing. But when I have
not surprisingly, I have a lot of coaching clients who
(34:22):
come to me and says, you know, life doesn't work.
What I always say is go back to your values.
And we don't actually think about them very much. We
think about what we're going to have for dinner and
are there enough sports socks to wear to the gym tomorrow?
Do you know? Like that's the and rightly so, because
that's really important and just to take that time to
sit back and say what do I actually really care about?
(34:43):
And there probably is only three or four things that
probably if you look back, they've been enduring, and the
chances are you've kind of drifted away from them if
you're feeling unsatisfied, so you perhaps your job or the
way you've structured your life is moving away from your values.
That's when we really if we move too far away,
that's where we really start to become you know, unhappy
(35:03):
or all the emotions come out. And we can see
that often we can see that in others, right you
can see they're in spaces where they're so far away
from who they are. So I think that's the point.
I know that sounds all woo woo and should light
a candle and dance around and sing folk songs or something,
but it is and I think and there are a
lot of tools online that can give you lists and
lists and lists of values. So just go and I
(35:25):
think that is a really good exercise. Take some time,
look at them, do it over a period of a
week or so, and then go and use it to
order to your life. Is my job now giving me
the opportunity to live to these values? Other way that
I'm doing things living to these values? And I just
think that's the anchor. Whether we like it or not.
We probably have made even consciously or consciously made choices
(35:46):
that take us there. But we can also drift away
from them. So yeah, I know that it sounds a
bit floaty. I think it's absolutely critical because then you've
got the rock to go. Okay, not if if I've
drifted away from them, what is going to take me back? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (36:05):
Well, I think half the problem is actually you know
you want to change, but you don't know what that changes.
So that's how that's how you start taking those steps
towards it. I think there are often lots of different
ways that we can change what we're doing, whether it's
going to your employer and going, look, I'm really loving
what I'm doing, but i'd like to I'd like to
step up. I'd like to go back and study. Can
I go part time? And you know, would you support
(36:27):
me in going to do some study or some retraining
or up skilling or something I'm you know, so you
might potentially sort of stay in the same job but
find get some new inspission. Because I think it's really
important that we are constantly learning.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Absolutely, and I couldn't agree more. And we often think
of study as this like school or university, so that's
this big formal weight that we take on, but I
actually think about I think we should think about learning
and you can do that quite easy. And a lot
of the education system are being developed so that they're
(37:02):
giving us bite sized knowledge as we go, so you
could even retrain and bite sized bits you don't. You know,
there's all sorts of opportunities here that goes back to
knowing what you want to do. But I also think
there's another piece. The world that we are going to
work in is only going to become more tech enabled,
and we can see that coming at us from everywhere
right whether we like it. Our phones are giving us
(37:24):
AI prompts continuously. Everything is going to have a basis
on it, and that's going to end up in our workplace.
So we are going to end up having to work
alongside all of us along AI assisted tools. We can
resist them, we can fight it, or we can understand
and be useful. The more discerning we are, the more
useful these tools will be. Or we may not choose to,
(37:46):
but at least we've lean into the conversation and there
is so much on offer of free, good, bite sized
learning to get our heads around what is when I
put something into CHETCHPD, what is it actually doing? I mean,
I have zero ten My tech assistant is my was
my eighteen year old son, and now he's gone to
university and I'm flying blind. Do you know we're at
(38:07):
that level of tech? But I've worked it out and
as soon as you kind of understand how clear it
is and what it can do, but also what it
can't do and why it's going to make mistakes. And
I'm starting to do a little online course on prompt engineering.
How can I get the best out of AI? So
I'm leaning into it. So you're kind of not afraid
when change in tools comes, you're going to be ready
(38:28):
to use them. And I just think all of us
need to think about our attitude towards tools and technology
and how we can use it to help us and
not be afraid. Right, it's only a tool.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Yeah, it's weird.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
I'm involved in participant based research, which anyone involved in
participant based research will realize how much it has changed.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
You used to beat. My boss used to say, I
don't understand.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
We just used to be able to phone someone at home,
you know, a mother post nationally. Have you got time
for an interviewer to come up visit, of course I have.
You know people don'ly answer their phones anymore. We're going
to have to get clever and use TikTok.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
Yep. Absolutely alien totally and you won't need to transcribe
anything again. I mean the hours and hours and hours
I did when I was doing my PhD transcribing. AI
will do it as you go, right, and all you're
doing is checking it, So it actually is going to
those kind of tools can make things easier for us.
But as you say, the way we might connect with
people is going to be quite different, all through different mediums,
(39:28):
and we need to have our heads around this. And
I'll take it back to being I guess a middle
aged woman in the workplace. The stereotype is that will
be the ones that are frightened like that man. We
got to don that, like, how can this make my
life easier? Right? We should be thinking what's in this
for me, what's not? And for me what are the
opportunities here? But also what's the downside? And there are
(39:49):
downsides and being part of the conversation and decision making
around these tools rather than having the world done to
us because we haven't got this far to take that.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
I agree, well I did.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
I did have a little giggle to myself when I
read the title of your latest book, Don't Worry about
the robots, because I do worry about the robots. So
this is obviously perfectly aimed for me how to survive
and thrive in the new world of work.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
That's really really good advice.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Joe, Hey, could we finish off by just talking about
how do we value women's unpaid work? How do we
celebrate the contribution of mothers.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
Yeah, it's for me, it was. It's kind of the
one of the last big hurdles. Does that kind of
make sense? And I don't even think it's even It's
more than motherhood, right, it's the emotional labor that women
do in the workplace of you seen one of your
male colleagues by a farewell gift.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
Do you know? So it's the it's the invisible glue
that holds I think the planet together is women unpaid
emotional labor, and it's invisible, right, and it's taken for granted.
And as you say, it's raising the next generation of humanity.
Not to say we don't have amazing dads. I think
(41:13):
we are seeing a movement there in more and more
dads wanting to be involved. But there still is a default, right,
and there still is a whole lot of norms around
that we still don't have. Even though they can, men
don't tend to take their parental leave. I just think
it's way more than it's the emotional load of who
organizes Christmas, who gets to get togethers, who looks after
(41:34):
people when they're sick, And if we could. I think
that we need to kind of make it visible, is
my sense. I think that's the first step. And we
did have a time use survey in New Zealand in
the nineteen nineties. We did it once and it was
so enlightening. So people are that, you know, thousands of
thousands of people given diaries and asked to write down exactly
what they did all day, and it shed a light
on just how much was happening in and around our
(41:56):
communities and how important that was. I have advocated that
we do it again because unless we see it, we
can't and quantify it and make it visible. All this
amazing work isn't valued, right because it just happens.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
It just seems like something that should happen each decade.
I'm omened for that. I'll participate.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Yeah, I'll run it, I'll do it.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
Yeah. I also think that amazing work that happens, say
in our Pacific and Mali communities, in their amazing volume
of work and productivity that happens here, that isn't necessarily
measured by our GDP. Again, it's just making what actually
happens and what actually matters invisible again, right, So the
only thing that we really see data on is when
(42:40):
we've been paid an hour, and that just is such
a small piece of what happens in this amazing country.
Speaker 4 (42:48):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
We're all about the little things and making small little
changes in our lives rather than trying to sort of
turn them upside down and everything. So, just to finish off,
if you were going to give one little piece of
advice to women, maybe middle laid women who are sort
of thinking about their careers at the moment and where
they want to go and where they're sitting right now,
what would you say to them?
Speaker 3 (43:07):
I would say, poor, a very nice glass of chardonnay
or sev one evening or a non alcoholic substitute, and
google values and spend some time on your own working
out what you actually care for care about, and then
do an audit of your life and say, am I
being true to myself? And then take the next step
(43:29):
in the areas where you're not. And I think it's
a really good investment and we should do it quite often,
if not leave it to the point where we're tired
and a bit burnt out. So just I think we
look after everyone else, but I think we need to
spend that little time in saying we're going to be stronger,
we're going to be better, we're going to make more
of an impact, We're going to make more of a
(43:49):
difference if we're actually being true to ourselves.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
And I love that because if you do do that,
I'm going to do that. I think you probably find
that there are aspects of your life where you are
really true to yourself. So it's not going to be
a one thing. Oh I've got to throw it all out.
It's going to be a oh I need to tweak
that or I need to Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
Sure, and it's unlikely to be Thelma and Louise though
if it is, but no, it and what it just
does is take us back to how we are going
to be the best version of us as if we
are being true to ourselves.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
Joe, it has been such a delight to get to
know you. Thank you so much for your time. We
really really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
Oh, it's been an extent pleasure. And thank you for
the amazing work that you were doing.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
I so enjoyed meeting Joe. Louise. I am absolutely going
to pick up her book.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Her latest book is called Don't Worry About the Robots,
How To survive and thrive in the new world of
work because I am. I am worried about the robots,
and I need to I need to be working on
future proofing my career. Look, I could have avoided it
till the cows come home, but the way she spoke
about it made me want to embrace it. Actually, she
was refreshing, honest, yes and positive. I guess this is
(45:03):
the thing I'll take away about and I love her
attitude towards middle aged women in their careers.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
It's time, It's our time. I just like the way
she went.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Don't think about being invisible, don't think about being ignored
at work.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Get yourself out there, front and center. Work out what
you want, go for it, use.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
That lovely little ledge that we get and look, we
no longer know feel the need to please everybody.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
And you know, I will.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Be doing the values exercise and I'll be encouraging my
daughter to do that too as she sets out on
her studies for next year. Thanks for joining us on
our New Zealand Herald podcast series, The Little Things. We
hope you share this podcast with the women in your
lives so we can all get a little bit more stoppy.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
And demanding of our employers. Nice.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and for more on this and other topics,
head to enzet Herald dot co dot nzet and we'll
catch you next time on the Little Things
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