September 6, 2024 • 42 mins
Making friends as a kid is easy work. As an adult? Not so much. From knowing how many friends you should have, to working through relationships that might be too toxic, juggling friends in adulthood is sometimes as complicated as your playground relationships.
This week, Francesca and Louise are joined by Dr Hannah Korrel, author of How to Break Up With Friends, to discuss all the advice you need to know for navigating, maintaining and building friendships in adulthood.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi, I'm Francisca Rudkin and I'm Louise Airy and this
is season three of our New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Here a podcast, The.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Little Things Good to have you with us.
Speaker 4 (00:16):
In this podcast, we talk to experts and find out
all the little things that you need to know to improve.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
In lots of different areas of your life.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Today we're going to talk about friendships, being a good friend,
dealing with issues, and getting rid of those tricky friendships.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Have I ever lent you the book The Good Life
by Robert Waldinger?
Speaker 1 (00:34):
No?
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Have I spoken to you about that?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I think you may have spoke.
Speaker 5 (00:36):
So.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
He's an American psychiatrist professor at Harvard Medical School, and
he directs the Harvard Study of Adult Development, which is
one of the longest running studies of adult life ever taken.
Everyone will all be ringing a bell to you, and
they have found the key to happiness in life comes
down to the quality of the relationships in your life.
So it's not about money or career, but relationships and connections.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
That is fascinating.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I think that Karen might have quitted some of that
research actually in The Good Partner, which was a book
we talked about in season one with Karen. Look, I
think I am lucky to have some really incredible friendships
and connections. But right, you're wrongly, I do make connections
quite quickly, and I have made a few bad.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Goals of backpedal out of one or two friendships.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Yeah, And look, I don't think any of us are perfect.
I don't think any of us have, you know, been
perfect friends at all times. And we've encountered some other
people that maybe haven't been great friends. And I think
as your age, you start working it out a bit,
don't you.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I think you do, And I think you know, we've
talked about this before. People come into your life for
reasons and seasons and ages and stages, and you know,
I think I think that's all right. I think we've
got to accept a little bit of that as well.
But there will be stayers, There will be people.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Who, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
I mean, I feel I've had some amazing people that
I've worked with over the years in many different companies
and areas and things, and I've just absolutely loved getting
to know them in those experens. But I don't see
them very often anymore or at all, and I sometimes
feel really bad about that, but that is also kind
of life and where you get to and I think
you know, there are those stages, as you say, you
(02:14):
start having kids and you're trying to work and all
of a sudden, not a lot of time for a
lot of other things outside of maybe just a few
of those sort of close mates.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
But if you take it back to the theory of
the quality, right, Yeah, that's what we're going to talk
about today. I mean, what do you look for in
a friendship, Francesca? Someone makes me laugh? Yeah, that's quite nice,
isn't it.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
I do like having a laugh. I like loyalty and trust.
You know that I can really trust somebody. Kindness, Yeah,
just simple kindness. I mean essentially, I want someone to
treat me the way I'm going to treat them. That's
right at the end of the day. I really like
a lack of competitiveness. That's one thing I can't do.
(02:57):
I don't know if that's an age thing too, that
I can't be bothered.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
We don't have that.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
It's really interesting because you and I we met when
our kids went our well, our children stid of kindy,
it's probably easiest way to put it. And we've got
another dear friend Tony, and there's three of us in
this relationship. And the really cool thing is there is
no competitiveness. There's no worrying about well what are you
two doing, there's no judgment, there's no pettiness. And sometimes
(03:20):
sreesomes don't really work, no, apparently, but I think we've
also all got other really good friends and family around us.
That's right, and it's there's definitely no competitiveness. I mean,
you can say to me the way he's right, I'm
going to really fire up mount eat in this morning,
and I've got yeh off you go. I'm not even
going to bother I don't want to keep up today.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
You go for us.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
You can go for a round a golf with Tony,
and I'm not going to get upset friend.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
She said exactly growing ups.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
So I guess, you know, researching this made me wonder,
do you think you have any toxic traits as a friend.
I'm going to probably my hand up and just say,
you know, I'm sure there are worse ones, but mine
is not sharing food at restaurants.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
I love the fact I think that makes you toxic.
I don't think that makes you toxic. I just think
it makes you quite fussy about your food. And when
you go to a restaurant, you want to order a
meal and you want to eat that meal and you
don't want to have to share it and eat other
people's feet. That's absolutely fine. That's not being toxic. That's
because you're a good friend that people might find that.
But I think if you're toxic, you're harmful. I don't
think that's causing harm to anybody, Louise, that you eat
(04:21):
your own meal.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I was being slightly tang and cheap.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
Yeah, well, look, I am absolutely sure over the years,
especially when I was younger, that i've you know, probably
hurt friends or something, or not been a great friend
and things I'd like to think now I've grown up, Yeah,
mustn't better.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
So I'm not a un mess. Is anything you want
to tell me? Feel free? Now's the time. Let's just
share it.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
So look, joining us to sort this all out today
is doctor Hannah Carrell, and she's a neuropsychologist. A few
years ago, she wrote a book called How to Break
Up With Friends. She's completed over a decade of study
to become qualified in the conditions of the Brain and
Psychology Relationships.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Doctor Hannah, welcome, Thank you so much for being with us.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
Thanks Fan, Jessica, thank you for having me. And Hi Luis.
How are you tell me?
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Hannah?
Speaker 4 (05:04):
What does this Might seem like a really simple question
and a really obvious question, but I think we should
actually think about it.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
What does a great friendship look like?
Speaker 5 (05:16):
That's not I mean, it's actually you're right, it seems
like a simple question. But you'd be surprised how many
people don't know the answer to that. And you know
the amount of like young women I'll speak to especially,
and men who you know, do you know what a
friendship is? And no one's people don't really think about
that question of what makes a good friendship like we
(05:36):
take it for granted. We think about it with family
and in toxic family relationships, we think about it in
relationships with our partners, or that you know, drop kick
boyfriend's little girl friends who weed dated when we were younger,
But we don't really put friendship through the same level
of scrutiny. And so there's something I really reflected on
when I was writing How To Break Up with Friends,
(05:58):
And you know, I kind of came down to four
attributes that I think are really important for a friendship
to work, which will sound very intuitive when I say them,
so trust, you have to trust that person. That person,
you know, can't be someone who just completely breaks through
confidence all the time. Affection. They have to like you,
which seems so obvious, But how many times have you
(06:21):
been hanging out with somebody who you consider a friend
But when you're with them, it doesn't feel like they
like you. You know, you're you're hanging with them and
it's like they're a bit of a wet mop and
they're kind of mean to you, Like they don't they don't.
It doesn't feel like they actually like spending time with you.
(06:41):
And the other things that I think are important are respect.
But does that person actually respect you? Because you might
have someone who you trust, you can tell everything to.
Maybe they're super affectionate, you know, they're that friend that
cuddles you and post slice photos of you on Instagram
or whatever it is, but they might not have any
respect for you. And those are the relationships where there's
(07:02):
like this insidious undercurrent where one person kind of thinks
they're better than the other person, and then that sort
of rears up its head when you're kind of encountering
life stages like someone gets a new job, somebody gets
a pairis, somebody gets engaged, and there's changes, and there's
that person who kind of feels a little bit more
(07:24):
entitled to things because they think they're better than you.
So it kind of it kind of pops up every
now and then, which is awful and awful feeling. And
the last thing, which is should be really obvious but isn't,
is reciprocation. It's got to be reciprocal, so you know
you when you I'm not talking like a tokenistic friendship
(07:44):
where it's like I did this, so you should do this.
That's I think a very juvenile understanding of friendship and recipropety.
What I mean by that is you should be able
to have a relationship where you're giving, but you're also
receiving on some level. You know, you're walking away from
the friendship and your cuts being filled or certainly not
(08:04):
drained all the time. You know, it's really hard to
maintain a relationship with someone if you're giving, giving giving
all the time, because that ends up breeding a lot
of resentment eventually. So that's my kind of in a nutshell,
those are kind of the four sort of pillars that
I would say you probably need to think about with friendship.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
They're really good pillars actually, because my next question was
going to be, you know, how do you identify and
make sure it's a genuine friendship? But actually, if you
think about those four pillars, that kind of gives you
the boxes to tech, right.
Speaker 5 (08:39):
Yeah, yeah, Well, I mean, I'm sure ladies like I
don't know about you guys, but when I was in
my ten and a little while ago now, I mean
not that long ago, but a little while ago now,
I just had so many relationships where I was giving
so much. Like when I was younger, I would have
these friends who really, when I think back on it,
(09:01):
we're probably more like bullies and they weren't very nice
to me. It's just so ironic because we like, it's
so universal for us to reflect back on our friendships
and go, yeah, I remember a time when I had
a friend who was actually more of a bully, And
it's really peculiar. Why we put ourselves through that? Like,
why do we do this to ourselves?
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Well, you're you're the psychologist, and I'm sure you'll tell us.
But as you were saying that, as you're talking about
those pillars. One thing that really struck me is the
friendship where and I know when it's a good one
because when something good happens for them, I'm happy for them,
and where something good has happened for me, and I
felt like they haven't been happy for me, and that Tom,
(09:45):
I guess the recipia is that the one?
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Yeah, so, Hannah, how many friends do we need?
Speaker 5 (09:53):
Well? I mean, I love that question because I think
that the perception of what you think you need, and
then there the science of what reassuringly psychologists are telling
us is the truth of the matter. So you know,
I could put the question back to you guys and
say how many friends do you think you would need?
Like if I said how many how many acquaintances or
(10:14):
friends do you reckon it takes to make a happy life?
What would you guys? Guess?
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Look, to be honest with you, I'm I don't need
a lot. I just need a small group of very
close good ones, maybe five to ten.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
I probably need I really need more. Yeah, but lista
I think I do.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
I do come from a really big family, and I
wonder if fix it because they're always in the mix
as well. Yeah, I'd probably say morey to forty. It
seems a lot, doesn't it.
Speaker 5 (10:43):
Yeah, look, I mean it's it's again. It's one of
those questions where we often impair and they say comparison
is a fief of joy that when you're seeing Instagram
and you're seeing photos of beautiful catch up and people
getting together and they've got oodles and oodles of people
in the room, and you know, you just feel that
burning burning in your chest, like, oh, is there something
(11:03):
wrong with me that I don't have that? But there's
this cool little number called the dumbar number, and Dumbar
Robin Dunbar is a sociologist who's done a bit of
research into basically the real estate of your brain. So
how big is the part of your brain that can
handle close relationships? And what his research is indicated is
that your brain is only really hardwired to have about
(11:27):
five super close relationships, Like I mean, you know people
who you would trust to babysity kids to come in
your house at any time. I'm talking like these are
like your partner, your siblings, and it might be those
really close besties that you have. You know, the person
who is your or is it ride or die best friend,
(11:50):
that person who you just you know, would happily like
just sit in your pajamas, don't mind how they see you.
They're a really close friendship, and the less intimate the relationship,
the more your brain can handle. So as your circle
of friends gets further out, your brain can handle more
(12:10):
people on that level. So if they're less close. You know,
we all have those friends who we might catch up
for lunch with, maybe we see them once every month
or two months or even three months. Sometimes we consider
them a friend, but they're probably not as close as that,
you know, your sister or your brother, or the person
who comes and drops in every single day who we
can also consider, you know, one of our best friends.
(12:33):
And that makes a lot of sense because you don't
really if you think about how much time you have
in a day, you probably don't have the time to
be contacting thirty of your closest friends on a daily
or weekly basis, because you've got a full time job,
you've got children, you've got podcasts, or whatever else you've
got going on. So it kind of is a nice
way of taking the pressure off of, you know, individuals
(12:57):
to feel like they have to have oodles noodles of
close friends. In fact, the research is telling us you
can get the most beautiful relationships and they tend to
be with a few close people rather than diluted over
heaps of more aquaintance type friends.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
That makes a lot of sense to me. And you
talk about things like taking the pressure off in time
and things like that and that, and that all resonates
because you want to nurture those relationships you have and
you want to really look after them. And you've got
those people that, as you say that ride or die,
the people that you know will be there for you
at the drop of a hat. And then I love
having lots more friends, Like it's not like I've got
ten friends and I don't have any more. And I
(13:37):
love all those people that you bang into when you
see and you catch up with like it was only yesterday,
although it was five years since you've seen each other
or whatever it is.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
But yeah, no, I totally get there.
Speaker 5 (13:46):
Yeah, definitely, And I think that's very natural and normal.
You know, you're going to have your work friends who
you're not working with anymore, but you catch up once
a year, or your college friends who have that lovely,
girly weekend you know, once every six months or something.
That's really quite normal. And you know what's also normal
is that feeling of you know, I think it friendship
(14:07):
goes hand in hand with talk discussion about loneliness. And
I'm sure there are people listening who have had days
and you guys, myself included days where you know, you
just feel kind of lonely. And there is so much
comparison these days with other people and social media, who's
that's constantly showing us, you know, the best of other
(14:27):
people's lives, and it is always curated to be the best,
and you don't see the lonely days in other people.
Everybody has days where they're going to feel a little
bit more lonely, and that's when it's important to kind
of call on, you know, those closer friends who can
be there to support us a little bit more, and
we can lean on a little bit more than perhaps
(14:48):
the friends who, yeah, are the fun friends who we
recatch up with once in a blue moon.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting one. I mean,
I don't know, I don't feel lonely. I quite like
to have a snippet of feeling lonelyess sometimes I don't
feel we're alone. But I think there's a difference between
lonely and being alone.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
Hannah, how do you know if her friendship is good
for you? We all sort of have a range of friends.
I mean, we cannot be perfect, can we We can't
be the perfect friend. We've got incredible, great friends, We've
probably got some pretty average friends, and then we might
we might have one or two sort of toxic friends
strommen and there as well. Is it okay to have
a range? And at what point do you go, actually,
(15:26):
this is this friendship isn't working for me?
Speaker 5 (15:28):
Yeah? Oh well, I'll look. I mean, I'll answer that
with a bit of a story if that's okay, if
I can indulge in reminiscing. But when I was younger,
I remember going through UNI and I had a particular
friend who she was. She was so fun, she was
so great. I really enjoyed. I really liked her, and
(15:49):
you know, I felt like we were super close and
we were like sisters, and she just meant so much
to me, and we've been friends for quite a while.
But I kind of noticed she had a bit of
a tendency to drink, and when she drank, she could
be really sort of she turned into a little bit
of Jeckyll or Hyde, you know, like one minute you
would have this lovely friend, and then the next minute, invariably,
(16:12):
whenever we went out, she would it would end up
with her sort of screaming and swearing and sometimes storming off,
And it was it was a really horrible experience. And
I found myself whenever I was going into an interaction
with her, starting to feel really anxious in the lead
up to the interaction and starting to panic a little bit, like,
oh my gosh, is she going to be angry today?
(16:34):
She's going to be happy today? You know what version
of her am I going to get today? And how
am I going to set her off today? Was like
little simple things would set her off. And I started
to realize, like one big red flag when it comes to,
you know, a toxic relationship is how do you feel
going into the interaction and how do you feel leaving
(16:56):
the interaction? So like for me, going into the interaction,
I was feeling apprehensive, I was feeling scared, and when
I left the interaction, I felt worse. I felt worse
than before the interaction started. Like there are so many
different ways, you know, we could talk for hours and
how it's about different types of toxic friends and toxic
behaviors that a person could do. There's so many different examples,
(17:20):
but I think the one big sign post and the
best signpost I can give you for any relationship would
be do you walk away from the interaction feeling better
or worse?
Speaker 4 (17:30):
Yes, there were one or two people over the last
out of ten years, and I would say to Lou
when I'm having a conversation with them, I say things
that are not me. They do not bring out the
best in me. They'll say something and it'll get me
and I'll just sort of respond with a comment and
I'll go, oh my gosh, that's not you. Why are
you responding with that comment? Why are you saying that?
And they would sort of bring out this worse side
(17:52):
of me, and I'd walk away from it going I
hated the way I was in that conversation. I hated
the way I spoke, I hated that comment I made,
I hated the way I got defensive about that the
toxicity was spreading.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Well, no, and I wouldn't have said it was toxic.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
I just would have said we had sort of slightly
different approaches and views on things. But the way they
express these kind of just got my backup somehow, and
I didn't like. It wasn't about them. They're perfectly fine,
they can be who they are, but it was more
how I was responding than I hated. That was my
cue to go, all right, We're just going to limit
those interactions, because, yeah, they just go out the worst
(18:31):
in me.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
It can take a while to learn those lessons, can't it.
You can kind of put your hand on the hot
element many many times before you realize it's not for you.
Speaker 5 (18:39):
Oh my god, story of my life, right, you know,
I need my twenties now, Like I'm thirty six, Like
I feel like every year I've kind of learned more
and more and more about friendships. And you know, I'm
going through like a ladies and probably I'm not sure
if you guys have children, but I'm like, I'm pregnant
with my first baby, and like, friendships change over time,
(19:00):
and I talk about in the book as well, like
the way that your dynamic shifts and your energies shift
and who you are changes over time as well. And
that's definitely something that I've learned from psychology, but also
you know from life, like who you are when you're
in UNI versus high school versus when you start your
(19:22):
first serious relationship, or when you become a parent. You
do change as a person, and there's nothing wrong with change.
And there are times when orbits like I like to
think of, you know, friendships a bit like solar systems, right,
like where planets that align for a period when we're
both going through you know, UNI, or we're both going
(19:44):
through the stress of exams and dating, and then they
might your orbits might get a little bit more distant
as you go into a different stage of life. They're
running a business, you're starting a family, and maybe we're
not as close as we were. But there may be
times in life life where you come back together again,
you know, after a period or season, you know, your
(20:05):
orbits come closer again as you become more similar in life,
and there's nothing wrong with that. I like what you
said before, Francesca about like, it's nothing to do with
that person. It was just a we were different, you know.
I think sometimes it's okay to give ourselves that permission
to be like, look, we're just you know, it's not personal,
it's not malicious. We're just orbits are getting a bit
(20:28):
more different and where we're moving away and maybe in
time we'll move back close again. And it's not that
anyone's been bad or wrong, it's just the ebb and
flow of the natural rhythm of life. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
I mean I've always said to Luis life too well.
This is the saying that I've come to later on
in life. But life is too short for shit, friends
to put it to put it simply, you know, I
really should you know you're listening to the little things
in Our guest on the podcast today is doctor hannaolt Correll,
neuro psychologist and author of How to Break Up with Friends,
talking all friendship or.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Withack shortly after this break.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
And I would love to talk about a couple more
things when you should leave a friendship and then also
how you deal with a difficulty in a friendship, like
one that you don't necessarily want to leave but you've
sort of hit a little bit of a hiccup. We've
been talking about toxic friendships, so let's start there. Can
you fix a toxic friendship or should you just get out?
Speaker 5 (21:27):
Great question, I mean the answer is it depends often times,
you know, the question is what have you done?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
So far.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
You know, what have you tried, Have you had a
bit of a communication about this or is it a
case of you know, it's awkward, it's hard. I haven't
actually discussed with that person their behavior and how it's
making me feel. So, you know, I think the first
point of call I would never my advice would never be,
you know, break up with a friend in the heat
(21:56):
at the moment, like you know, you're a couple of
mahitos down and they've just insulted your outfit. That's often,
you know, when people want to do those things is
in the heat of the moment. We like often after
learning a bit of assertiveness or something, we tend to
see people swing like a pendulum between not being assertive
enough and then swinging right to the other other end
(22:19):
of the spectrum where they're suddenly super assertive and they're
almost two like the gung hole about it, and they're
a little bit over zealous and they might you know,
overdo it or not think through what they want to
say in a in a really considered manner. So I
would be saying, like, do nothing in the heat of
the moment. If it's you know, sit on it, hold it,
(22:40):
take a breath, go to the bathroom. Can you wait
a minute, can you wait an hour? Can you wait
a night so that you can just collect yourself. And
you know, I think I love the word integrity, right
is everything that you do doesn't have integrity? Can you
look back on that interaction and feel like you conducted
yourself in a manner that like you can be proud
out of. And often it's those heat of the moment
(23:02):
discussions where we regret something. So I would say, you know,
heat of the moment definitely not when you want to
break up with a friend, but when the situation is passed,
maybe when you're comfortable, maybe in your safe space, like
you're at home there at home, pers that's the time
where you can reach out to them to have a
conversation about the thing that has upset you. And communication
(23:24):
is really where everything seems to fall apart in so
many cases, Like you think back on those those friendships
you've had in the past where you might have drifted apart.
It is really hard to say, hey, when this happened,
it really you know, it upset me and it can
feel like a confrontation. And I think that's where a
lot of people kind of shy away from this idea
(23:46):
of breaking up with friends because they fear confrontation. They
fear that there's going to be a fight, that the
other person's going to arc up, it's going to be
airing of dirty, dirty laundry, and it's just going to
all go terribly. But you don't ultimately, you just don't
know until you give it a go. And you don't
need to, you know, bring something up in a confrontational
(24:08):
matter a way where where you're screaming or you're yelling
or you're swearing, you can articulate things in a healthy way.
And I talk about this in the book. I have
it in myay. I've got an apt call to assert yourself,
which is all about how do you communicate and the
fact that you can communicate in a way that is
not confrontational where you're saying, hey, you know, when you
did X, it made me feel why can you please
(24:32):
not do X again? Right, it doesn't have to be
I'm not yelling, I'm not screaming, I'm not swearing. I'm
staying what the behavior was. So for example, when you
call me names, it makes me feel really sad. Can
you please not call me names? Or when you make
me the butt of the joke when we go out
(24:52):
actually makes me really uncomfortable. Can you please not make
me the butt of the joke? You know, so really
calling out what is the behavior? Does it make you feel?
And then asking the person can you please not do
it again? And in a lot of cases, you know,
if someone was to say to me, hey, when you
did X, it made me feel why if a person's
telling me it made them feel uncomfortable, I would probably
(25:13):
be like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, Like I
didn't that was not my intention. Thanks, thank you for
letting me know I won't do that again. The question
now becomes do they do it again? That's when the
rubber hits the road. Right, So you've told the friend, right,
look when you leave me to pick up the tab,
or when you hit on my boyfriend or whatever it
(25:35):
is that they're doing. Once you've articulated the boundary, it's
now your job to uphold the boundary. So if they've
crossed the line you said, this behavior is not okay.
If they cross that line again and again, then you
know it takes two to tango, right, How often are
you letting that person get away with the poor treatment,
(25:57):
and this, you know, probably taps into family relationships, partner
relationships as well as friendships as well, if boundaries are
all about two people.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
It's interesting you mentioned boundaries. Louise has been fixated on
boundaries recently.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I have been, you know, I've recently dived into some
therapy and did see boundaries were an issue for me,
making them, not keeping them.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
I'm pretty good at keeping it.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
But it did help me understand the reciprocal nature of
boundaries actually, because I had some unresolved relationships stuff, you know,
family or friends, and I realized they had established boundaries
and I perhaps hadn't accepted them. And now I'm kind
of like, oh, well, okay, that's fine, I won't go there.
(26:44):
And equally it allowed me to create some boundaries with
some other things. But just if I understand this correctly,
it's right that we set the boundaries, but we're not
responsible for how that boundary is received.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (26:58):
So you know, whether it causes offense within reason obviously,
but I don't need to articulate and overstate and keep
explaining the boundary, right. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (27:07):
Look, I mean I personally I love psychology. I am
the biggest fan of seeing a psychologist. I feel I'm
a psychologist who has a psychologist like mental fitness, right,
you know, you've got to know thyself and it just
takes I think it takes living to the next level.
Like you just you have a better life when you
can understand yourself and just have someone exclusively focus on
(27:29):
you for an hour. It's really lovely. So good on you,
Louise for doing that. I'm like, kudos to you. Yeah, look,
so you know with boundaries, the tricky thing is, I
love the One of the things I learned from psychology
was I am I am responsible for my feelings, and
(27:49):
you are responsible for your feelings. And when you try
to take responsibility for somebody else's feelings, that's when you
tend to get yourself in a pickle. Because how many
times have you wanted to make someone feel better? How
many times have you wanted to make someone feel differently?
How many times have you wanted someone to like you
or you wanted someone to react and be a different
(28:10):
way or do a different thing, And you can't, as
much as you might wish for it, you can't control
another person's behavior, their feelings, or their thoughts. And if
you try to. That's usually, you know, when you get
yourself yeah, in hot water, So it's a nice you know. Obviously,
if I'm swearing at you, yelling at you, assaulting you,
(28:31):
that's that's me doing the wrong thing there. But I
can't control other people's feelings. If I say, hey, when
you did this behavior, it makes me feel uncomfortable, Please
don't do this behavior again, I'm letting the person I'm
taking some responsibility. I feel this way. My triggers are
these things. You know, when you talk about my body
(28:55):
or when you talk about my dress choice, it makes
me uncomfortable. Can you please not mention those things again?
Please don't bring them up in conversation. So I'm taking
a responsibility for how I feel, and I'm letting the
other person know, please don't do these behaviors because that's
what's triggering me. So the other person can then choose
to either respect your boundary or walk all over it.
(29:18):
And it's the same for them. They other adults also
need to know if something makes you uncomfortable, it's your
responsibility to communicate that and let the other person know
so that they don't do behaviors that then trigger you.
So I think you know, a healthy adult relationship is
about each party taking responsibility for what's theirs and the
(29:38):
other person, you know, respecting that communication and that boundary.
So there's that lovely kind of reciprocity of you can
tell me what makes you uncomfortable and I'll respect it,
and I'll hear it, and I can tell you what
makes me uncomfortable and respect how that respect and heard
it as well, And that's a healthy relationship because if
you're friends for twenty years with someone, there's going to
(29:59):
be time for you to each other off right, There's
going to be times when you step in it. No
relationships perfect. What it's about is the repair after that occurs.
How do you communicate, how do you tell the other
person you how to trigger in a boundary and do
they respect it?
Speaker 1 (30:16):
I guess it takes the assumption out of it too,
because assumption can be a real relationship killer.
Speaker 5 (30:21):
Yeah, exactly, And sometimes you don't know that that person
might be triggered, Hannah.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
As we age, I think, you know, we can go
through different ages and stages and kids at school and
then they go to UNI and we go through different
sort of stages of friends and things. A lot of
people as they get older maybe find themselves alone. Maybe
life circumstances mean that you end up moving, you know,
or maybe you're just looking at your friends going I
(30:47):
want better friends.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
How do we make friends? Especially if you're older.
Speaker 5 (30:52):
Yeah, oh my gosh, this is the age old question.
And do you know it's so interesting When I was
writing a book looking insto some statistic on loneliness, and
I found that one into there's a company called Yuga
that's done like thousands of people surveying thousand, thousands of people,
and they found out that one into people identify as
(31:14):
feeling lonely. Would you believe one in two people.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Which is half the population.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
So if you've had times where you feel lonely, you
can probably bet your bottom dollar that somebody you know
has similarly felt lonely. And if you're walking down the street,
every second person you see has had a period where
they've felt lonely. Okay, So the positive thing about that
is that every second person is looking for connection. Every
(31:41):
second person is seeking more intimacy and time with someone
who they enjoy the company of. And these are all
amazing opportunities for us to make more friends. It comes
down to what are you doing to make friends? I sometimes,
you know, do webinars and seminars and stuff, and people
(32:03):
say how do we make friends? And I go, what
have you tried? And they go, oh, nothing, they haven't
actually they haven't actually tried to make friends. So friends
don't really happen in a vacuum. You know. We don't
walk to the shops and or very rarely you would
go grocery shopping or walk along the street and spontaneously
make a friend. It takes a concerted effort to make
(32:26):
a friend. It takes an actual, active effort to make
a friend. And the key things that you know allow
you to potentially foster a friendship is proximity and time. Right,
So consistency, proximity, time. If you are going to the
same place at the same time consistently, then you will
(32:47):
meet the same people and friendship will foster. Okay, but
it's going to take just like going to the gym,
just like any other homework we have. These things take
time and they take consistency, so you know, to make
it not a chore. One of the pieces of advice
I give is find something you love. What's something that
you enjoy? You know, for me, I was really interested
(33:10):
in learning how to I moved to Sydney. I was
working in Brisbane at the time. I'd just been living
all around Australia and I'm one of those, you know,
serial movers, so like every two years I'd pick up
and move to a new place because of my you know,
doing my registry program and studying, and I just was like,
oh my gosh, I wish I had some long term
(33:31):
friends and I felt lonely. When I moved to Sydney,
I made a conscious choice that I was going to
learn how to salca dance, and so I booked in
to go to a salsa class. Past forward, three years later,
I teach salsa now as a hobby, and I just
made the most wonderful group, this wonderful community of people
(33:54):
who are all adults, who are also in the same
place at the same time every week, you know, every fortnight,
and you make a little community, and before you know it,
you know you're getting invited to you know, group parties
or group functions. You're part of a WhatsApp group and
it's that proximity to people that allows you to foster
(34:17):
a friendship. So for me, I would say, you know,
are you putting a concerted effort in find the thing
you love? What's that? What's the thing you've been wanting
to try. Maybe it's watercolor, maybe pottery, maybe it's salsa.
Find the group and then go to the group and
give it, give it a real go. So you need
to commit to every week or every fortnight. I'm going
(34:37):
to this group. I'm seeing the same people every single week.
I'm putting some consistency and effort into this. And you know,
where you water, that's where the flowers will grow.
Speaker 4 (34:47):
And finally, Hannah, I believe in twenty twenty four we can.
But can men and women have a great platonic relationship friendship?
Speaker 5 (34:54):
Yes, I definitely think you can have a beautiful platonically.
I have a lot of great guy friends. I mentioned
I sold. So part of that is, you know, you
dance with men. You know, I'm usually dancing as the follower.
My lead is usually a male, So I've made heaps
of platonic male friendships. I will say, though, you know,
honesty is important. Like the one caveat to that is
(35:16):
be honest. You know, if you have a crush on
your male friend, or you sense that that person has
a crush on you and they like you. You know,
A key part of like it being a platonic relationship
is that it is platonic and it's respectful to any
other partners you know, and that you're engaging in respectful
(35:36):
behavior like behind closed doors with that friend. And sometimes
that's a fine line to skate. And then maybe friends
who you know, perhaps you're when you're single, your behavior
with them is fine, but when you've got a girlfriend
or a boyfriend, you have to change that behavior a
little bit to be respectful of your romantic relationship and
(35:57):
just making sure that your partner is comfortable with these
people and that you're aware of your partner's comfort levels.
But yeah, I think you know, if at all parties
are honest and genuinely platonic, then absolutely you can. Some
of my best friends are males, and you know, I
wouldn't change it for the world because they give me
such a great perspective that as a woman I would
(36:19):
never have had access to.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Just to finish up, we'd just like to ask a
couple of little things that you would suggest that we
could make we could do to make sure that we
are really nurturing those very close friendships in our lives.
Speaker 5 (36:32):
Oh my gosh, that's a beautiful question. I mean one,
I love that you asked that question because that tells me,
you know, empathy is on the mind, So being a
pathetic is always amazing. I think, you know, in today's
like modern world, there's so much pressure. We have so
much stuff on, like, oh my god, guys, I can't
(36:54):
even keep on top of my emails, let alone you know,
the complex social dynamics going on in my life. But
I think you know, one little thing, one little little
thing that I would say that is nice and helpful
is just the check in are you okay? Sending the
text I'm thinking about you, the phone call, the low energy.
(37:14):
You know, there's not a lot of demand there in
terms of my time or money, but it's the connection,
like I'm seeking a connection, your energy and your connection.
It doesn't really cost you anything. It's just that little
bit of time. And maybe it's when you're driving to work,
when you get a little window of opportunity. Maybe it's
that quick text you send before you get on the bus,
but just letting that other person know that you're thinking
(37:36):
of them, that you care about them, and you're just
you're sending out that energy to that person to let
them know like, hey, like you're on my mind, I
want to catch up with you, I want to see you,
I care about you. I feel like you. Guys have
probably received texts like that in the past. It's always
really nice to know that your friend is there and
thinking of you and cares about you. And I feel
(37:58):
like that's kind of a low energy thing we can
do for each other is just you know, maybe you
have one day of the week and that's your send
a nice message to a friend day. You know, every Friday,
I'm going to send a really nice message to my
mum or my sister or my best mate, somebody. Every Friday,
I send a nice message to someone. And that's part
of my ritual to connect with people. And that's low energy.
(38:20):
A higher energy thing is can you be there for them?
Can you physically be there for them without needing to
take them for dinner or spend the money or you know, everyone,
it's cost of living is high right now, but don't
turn your nose up to just being in the house
with a person, you know, just hanging around watching a
movie with them, helping out around the house, doing something
(38:41):
where that person can just be in your company without
it costing a bomb or you guys having to go
to extensive dinner. There's so many ways you can connect
without it being something that drains you financially. So I
think that's kind of takes the pressure off.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
A little bit.
Speaker 5 (38:57):
Don't feel like every interaction has to be big special events.
Sometimes the small, small, little ones even better than the
big ones.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
I love those, Hannah. Those are really achievable.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
Thank you so much, Hannah. It has just been wonderful
to talk to you.
Speaker 4 (39:13):
Some very sensible advice I shall be pondering over.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
We really appreciate your time.
Speaker 5 (39:20):
Thank you so much. Ladies, all excellent, excellent questions. I've
loved being on a podcast.
Speaker 4 (39:31):
So, Louise, how are you managing those thirty to forty
close friends?
Speaker 2 (39:34):
I think I mess interred that a little bit.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
I know, well, I think, yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
You're not just one of forty.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
No, Jack, No, that's okay. Well, yeah, that's a very
good point. I wondered where I was. I was like,
can we rank them? Please?
Speaker 1 (39:47):
No?
Speaker 3 (39:47):
But I understood what she's coming from.
Speaker 4 (39:49):
Actually, if you think about the number of people that
you were going to call in the case of an
emergency that you actually wanted to help you. Yes, it's
for me, and it's probably five to two. And that's
what I was thinking about, though, those really strong, very
very close friendships and then yeah, the ones that you've
got the high energy for, and then there's absolutely another
thirty forty more that you love dearly and you're cherish,
(40:12):
but probably aren't quite such.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
A part of your days day life. But that was funny.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Can I walk in to the house and put the
jug on its kind of a pretty good day.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Yeah, probably ten of those.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
I thought there was some interesting things that I thought
was really interesting when we were talking about toxic friendships
and leaving them, and Hanna, you know, was very sensible
with her advices and don't react in the moment and
a little bit of mindfulness needs to come into play
here and you can stop and pause and think about
how you're going to react and things.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
But she was very.
Speaker 4 (40:40):
Keen on trying to repair a relationship as opposed to
just going actually, I'm done, and I think maybe at
my age as long as I am, I don't know
how much more time I would give a relationship of
friendship if it had been difficult for a long period
of time. I think I would probably, but I wouldn't.
(41:01):
I wouldn't be brave enough to have a conversation. I'll
probably just drift away.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
I felt a little immature because I was thinking, I'm
definitely not going to react in the moment. What I'm
going to do is I'm just going to go away.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Anyone ever gonna see.
Speaker 4 (41:15):
Me, We're not going to And that's the other thing.
When she was talking about boundaries and just having that conversation,
and I'm like, you know what, it makes a huge
amount of sense Onlouis, can you just not do that?
I just it just makes me feel crap. And I
can say that to you in a way that you
you wouldn't even be offended. You'd kind of go, yeah, yeah, no,
no worries. I didn't know that. But actually sitting down
and having that conversation, that's hard. I don't think we're
(41:35):
good at it.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
And I wonder if New Zealanders we're just a bit
we don't like confrontation.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
It could be a New Zealand thing, could be an
age thing, could be an anger. People might be a
bit more forthright be interested to research that a little more.
But yeah, I think we're fairly intuitive with our friendship now.
Friendshisip's been a long ride and we're very intimate in
terms of going for a run and maybe letting our
little gas here and there.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
It makes you pretty close.
Speaker 4 (42:01):
And I loved it at the end when I asked
about photonic relationships, because I think they do work.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
As long as there's some honesty on both sides.
Speaker 4 (42:09):
Thanks for joining us on our New Zealand Herald podcast series,
The Little Things. We hope you share this podcast with
the women in your life, so if you have to
bring up a boundary, she'll be.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
Ready for it.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
And you can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever
you get your podcasts. And for more on this and
other topics, head to zid herold dot co dot zed
and we'll catch you next
Speaker 3 (42:28):
Time on The Little Things.
Hi, I'm Francisca Rudkin and I'm Louise Airy and this
is season three of our New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Here a podcast, The.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Little Things Good to have you with us.
Speaker 4 (00:16):
In this podcast, we talk to experts and find out
all the little things that you need to know to improve.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
In lots of different areas of your life.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Today we're going to talk about friendships, being a good friend,
dealing with issues, and getting rid of those tricky friendships.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Have I ever lent you the book The Good Life
by Robert Waldinger?
Speaker 1 (00:34):
No?
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Have I spoken to you about that?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I think you may have spoke.
Speaker 5 (00:36):
So.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
He's an American psychiatrist professor at Harvard Medical School, and
he directs the Harvard Study of Adult Development, which is
one of the longest running studies of adult life ever taken.
Everyone will all be ringing a bell to you, and
they have found the key to happiness in life comes
down to the quality of the relationships in your life.
So it's not about money or career, but relationships and connections.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
That is fascinating.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I think that Karen might have quitted some of that
research actually in The Good Partner, which was a book
we talked about in season one with Karen. Look, I
think I am lucky to have some really incredible friendships
and connections. But right, you're wrongly, I do make connections
quite quickly, and I have made a few bad.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Goals of backpedal out of one or two friendships.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Yeah, And look, I don't think any of us are perfect.
I don't think any of us have, you know, been
perfect friends at all times. And we've encountered some other
people that maybe haven't been great friends. And I think
as your age, you start working it out a bit,
don't you.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I think you do, And I think you know, we've
talked about this before. People come into your life for
reasons and seasons and ages and stages, and you know,
I think I think that's all right. I think we've
got to accept a little bit of that as well.
But there will be stayers, There will be people.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Who, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
I mean, I feel I've had some amazing people that
I've worked with over the years in many different companies
and areas and things, and I've just absolutely loved getting
to know them in those experens. But I don't see
them very often anymore or at all, and I sometimes
feel really bad about that, but that is also kind
of life and where you get to and I think
you know, there are those stages, as you say, you
(02:14):
start having kids and you're trying to work and all
of a sudden, not a lot of time for a
lot of other things outside of maybe just a few
of those sort of close mates.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
But if you take it back to the theory of
the quality, right, Yeah, that's what we're going to talk
about today. I mean, what do you look for in
a friendship, Francesca? Someone makes me laugh? Yeah, that's quite nice,
isn't it.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
I do like having a laugh. I like loyalty and trust.
You know that I can really trust somebody. Kindness, Yeah,
just simple kindness. I mean essentially, I want someone to
treat me the way I'm going to treat them. That's
right at the end of the day. I really like
a lack of competitiveness. That's one thing I can't do.
(02:57):
I don't know if that's an age thing too, that
I can't be bothered.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
We don't have that.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
It's really interesting because you and I we met when
our kids went our well, our children stid of kindy,
it's probably easiest way to put it. And we've got
another dear friend Tony, and there's three of us in
this relationship. And the really cool thing is there is
no competitiveness. There's no worrying about well what are you
two doing, there's no judgment, there's no pettiness. And sometimes
(03:20):
sreesomes don't really work, no, apparently, but I think we've
also all got other really good friends and family around us.
That's right, and it's there's definitely no competitiveness. I mean,
you can say to me the way he's right, I'm
going to really fire up mount eat in this morning,
and I've got yeh off you go. I'm not even
going to bother I don't want to keep up today.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
You go for us.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
You can go for a round a golf with Tony,
and I'm not going to get upset friend.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
She said exactly growing ups.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
So I guess, you know, researching this made me wonder,
do you think you have any toxic traits as a friend.
I'm going to probably my hand up and just say,
you know, I'm sure there are worse ones, but mine
is not sharing food at restaurants.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
I love the fact I think that makes you toxic.
I don't think that makes you toxic. I just think
it makes you quite fussy about your food. And when
you go to a restaurant, you want to order a
meal and you want to eat that meal and you
don't want to have to share it and eat other
people's feet. That's absolutely fine. That's not being toxic. That's
because you're a good friend that people might find that.
But I think if you're toxic, you're harmful. I don't
think that's causing harm to anybody, Louise, that you eat
(04:21):
your own meal.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I was being slightly tang and cheap.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
Yeah, well, look, I am absolutely sure over the years,
especially when I was younger, that i've you know, probably
hurt friends or something, or not been a great friend
and things I'd like to think now I've grown up, Yeah,
mustn't better.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
So I'm not a un mess. Is anything you want
to tell me? Feel free? Now's the time. Let's just
share it.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
So look, joining us to sort this all out today
is doctor Hannah Carrell, and she's a neuropsychologist. A few
years ago, she wrote a book called How to Break
Up With Friends. She's completed over a decade of study
to become qualified in the conditions of the Brain and
Psychology Relationships.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Doctor Hannah, welcome, Thank you so much for being with us.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
Thanks Fan, Jessica, thank you for having me. And Hi Luis.
How are you tell me?
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Hannah?
Speaker 4 (05:04):
What does this Might seem like a really simple question
and a really obvious question, but I think we should
actually think about it.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
What does a great friendship look like?
Speaker 5 (05:16):
That's not I mean, it's actually you're right, it seems
like a simple question. But you'd be surprised how many
people don't know the answer to that. And you know
the amount of like young women I'll speak to especially,
and men who you know, do you know what a
friendship is? And no one's people don't really think about
that question of what makes a good friendship like we
(05:36):
take it for granted. We think about it with family
and in toxic family relationships, we think about it in
relationships with our partners, or that you know, drop kick
boyfriend's little girl friends who weed dated when we were younger,
But we don't really put friendship through the same level
of scrutiny. And so there's something I really reflected on
when I was writing How To Break Up with Friends,
(05:58):
And you know, I kind of came down to four
attributes that I think are really important for a friendship
to work, which will sound very intuitive when I say them,
so trust, you have to trust that person. That person,
you know, can't be someone who just completely breaks through
confidence all the time. Affection. They have to like you,
which seems so obvious, But how many times have you
(06:21):
been hanging out with somebody who you consider a friend
But when you're with them, it doesn't feel like they
like you. You know, you're you're hanging with them and
it's like they're a bit of a wet mop and
they're kind of mean to you, Like they don't they don't.
It doesn't feel like they actually like spending time with you.
(06:41):
And the other things that I think are important are respect.
But does that person actually respect you? Because you might
have someone who you trust, you can tell everything to.
Maybe they're super affectionate, you know, they're that friend that
cuddles you and post slice photos of you on Instagram
or whatever it is, but they might not have any
respect for you. And those are the relationships where there's
(07:02):
like this insidious undercurrent where one person kind of thinks
they're better than the other person, and then that sort
of rears up its head when you're kind of encountering
life stages like someone gets a new job, somebody gets
a pairis, somebody gets engaged, and there's changes, and there's
that person who kind of feels a little bit more
(07:24):
entitled to things because they think they're better than you.
So it kind of it kind of pops up every
now and then, which is awful and awful feeling. And
the last thing, which is should be really obvious but isn't,
is reciprocation. It's got to be reciprocal, so you know
you when you I'm not talking like a tokenistic friendship
(07:44):
where it's like I did this, so you should do this.
That's I think a very juvenile understanding of friendship and recipropety.
What I mean by that is you should be able
to have a relationship where you're giving, but you're also
receiving on some level. You know, you're walking away from
the friendship and your cuts being filled or certainly not
(08:04):
drained all the time. You know, it's really hard to
maintain a relationship with someone if you're giving, giving giving
all the time, because that ends up breeding a lot
of resentment eventually. So that's my kind of in a nutshell,
those are kind of the four sort of pillars that
I would say you probably need to think about with friendship.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
They're really good pillars actually, because my next question was
going to be, you know, how do you identify and
make sure it's a genuine friendship? But actually, if you
think about those four pillars, that kind of gives you
the boxes to tech, right.
Speaker 5 (08:39):
Yeah, yeah, Well, I mean, I'm sure ladies like I
don't know about you guys, but when I was in
my ten and a little while ago now, I mean
not that long ago, but a little while ago now,
I just had so many relationships where I was giving
so much. Like when I was younger, I would have
these friends who really, when I think back on it,
(09:01):
we're probably more like bullies and they weren't very nice
to me. It's just so ironic because we like, it's
so universal for us to reflect back on our friendships
and go, yeah, I remember a time when I had
a friend who was actually more of a bully, And
it's really peculiar. Why we put ourselves through that? Like,
why do we do this to ourselves?
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Well, you're you're the psychologist, and I'm sure you'll tell us.
But as you were saying that, as you're talking about
those pillars. One thing that really struck me is the
friendship where and I know when it's a good one
because when something good happens for them, I'm happy for them,
and where something good has happened for me, and I
felt like they haven't been happy for me, and that Tom,
(09:45):
I guess the recipia is that the one?
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Yeah, so, Hannah, how many friends do we need?
Speaker 5 (09:53):
Well? I mean, I love that question because I think
that the perception of what you think you need, and
then there the science of what reassuringly psychologists are telling
us is the truth of the matter. So you know,
I could put the question back to you guys and
say how many friends do you think you would need?
Like if I said how many how many acquaintances or
(10:14):
friends do you reckon it takes to make a happy life?
What would you guys? Guess?
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Look, to be honest with you, I'm I don't need
a lot. I just need a small group of very
close good ones, maybe five to ten.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
I probably need I really need more. Yeah, but lista
I think I do.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
I do come from a really big family, and I
wonder if fix it because they're always in the mix
as well. Yeah, I'd probably say morey to forty. It
seems a lot, doesn't it.
Speaker 5 (10:43):
Yeah, look, I mean it's it's again. It's one of
those questions where we often impair and they say comparison
is a fief of joy that when you're seeing Instagram
and you're seeing photos of beautiful catch up and people
getting together and they've got oodles and oodles of people
in the room, and you know, you just feel that
burning burning in your chest, like, oh, is there something
(11:03):
wrong with me that I don't have that? But there's
this cool little number called the dumbar number, and Dumbar
Robin Dunbar is a sociologist who's done a bit of
research into basically the real estate of your brain. So
how big is the part of your brain that can
handle close relationships? And what his research is indicated is
that your brain is only really hardwired to have about
(11:27):
five super close relationships, Like I mean, you know people
who you would trust to babysity kids to come in
your house at any time. I'm talking like these are
like your partner, your siblings, and it might be those
really close besties that you have. You know, the person
who is your or is it ride or die best friend,
(11:50):
that person who you just you know, would happily like
just sit in your pajamas, don't mind how they see you.
They're a really close friendship, and the less intimate the relationship,
the more your brain can handle. So as your circle
of friends gets further out, your brain can handle more
(12:10):
people on that level. So if they're less close. You know,
we all have those friends who we might catch up
for lunch with, maybe we see them once every month
or two months or even three months. Sometimes we consider
them a friend, but they're probably not as close as that,
you know, your sister or your brother, or the person
who comes and drops in every single day who we
can also consider, you know, one of our best friends.
(12:33):
And that makes a lot of sense because you don't
really if you think about how much time you have
in a day, you probably don't have the time to
be contacting thirty of your closest friends on a daily
or weekly basis, because you've got a full time job,
you've got children, you've got podcasts, or whatever else you've
got going on. So it kind of is a nice
way of taking the pressure off of, you know, individuals
(12:57):
to feel like they have to have oodles noodles of
close friends. In fact, the research is telling us you
can get the most beautiful relationships and they tend to
be with a few close people rather than diluted over
heaps of more aquaintance type friends.
Speaker 4 (13:15):
That makes a lot of sense to me. And you
talk about things like taking the pressure off in time
and things like that and that, and that all resonates
because you want to nurture those relationships you have and
you want to really look after them. And you've got
those people that, as you say that ride or die,
the people that you know will be there for you
at the drop of a hat. And then I love
having lots more friends, Like it's not like I've got
ten friends and I don't have any more. And I
(13:37):
love all those people that you bang into when you
see and you catch up with like it was only yesterday,
although it was five years since you've seen each other
or whatever it is.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
But yeah, no, I totally get there.
Speaker 5 (13:46):
Yeah, definitely, And I think that's very natural and normal.
You know, you're going to have your work friends who
you're not working with anymore, but you catch up once
a year, or your college friends who have that lovely,
girly weekend you know, once every six months or something.
That's really quite normal. And you know what's also normal
is that feeling of you know, I think it friendship
(14:07):
goes hand in hand with talk discussion about loneliness. And
I'm sure there are people listening who have had days
and you guys, myself included days where you know, you
just feel kind of lonely. And there is so much
comparison these days with other people and social media, who's
that's constantly showing us, you know, the best of other
(14:27):
people's lives, and it is always curated to be the best,
and you don't see the lonely days in other people.
Everybody has days where they're going to feel a little
bit more lonely, and that's when it's important to kind
of call on, you know, those closer friends who can
be there to support us a little bit more, and
we can lean on a little bit more than perhaps
(14:48):
the friends who, yeah, are the fun friends who we
recatch up with once in a blue moon.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting one. I mean,
I don't know, I don't feel lonely. I quite like
to have a snippet of feeling lonelyess sometimes I don't
feel we're alone. But I think there's a difference between
lonely and being alone.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
Hannah, how do you know if her friendship is good
for you? We all sort of have a range of friends.
I mean, we cannot be perfect, can we We can't
be the perfect friend. We've got incredible, great friends, We've
probably got some pretty average friends, and then we might
we might have one or two sort of toxic friends
strommen and there as well. Is it okay to have
a range? And at what point do you go, actually,
(15:26):
this is this friendship isn't working for me?
Speaker 5 (15:28):
Yeah? Oh well, I'll look. I mean, I'll answer that
with a bit of a story if that's okay, if
I can indulge in reminiscing. But when I was younger,
I remember going through UNI and I had a particular
friend who she was. She was so fun, she was
so great. I really enjoyed. I really liked her, and
(15:49):
you know, I felt like we were super close and
we were like sisters, and she just meant so much
to me, and we've been friends for quite a while.
But I kind of noticed she had a bit of
a tendency to drink, and when she drank, she could
be really sort of she turned into a little bit
of Jeckyll or Hyde, you know, like one minute you
would have this lovely friend, and then the next minute, invariably,
(16:12):
whenever we went out, she would it would end up
with her sort of screaming and swearing and sometimes storming off,
And it was it was a really horrible experience. And
I found myself whenever I was going into an interaction
with her, starting to feel really anxious in the lead
up to the interaction and starting to panic a little bit, like,
oh my gosh, is she going to be angry today?
(16:34):
She's going to be happy today? You know what version
of her am I going to get today? And how
am I going to set her off today? Was like
little simple things would set her off. And I started
to realize, like one big red flag when it comes to,
you know, a toxic relationship is how do you feel
going into the interaction and how do you feel leaving
(16:56):
the interaction? So like for me, going into the interaction,
I was feeling apprehensive, I was feeling scared, and when
I left the interaction, I felt worse. I felt worse
than before the interaction started. Like there are so many
different ways, you know, we could talk for hours and
how it's about different types of toxic friends and toxic
behaviors that a person could do. There's so many different examples,
(17:20):
but I think the one big sign post and the
best signpost I can give you for any relationship would
be do you walk away from the interaction feeling better
or worse?
Speaker 4 (17:30):
Yes, there were one or two people over the last
out of ten years, and I would say to Lou
when I'm having a conversation with them, I say things
that are not me. They do not bring out the
best in me. They'll say something and it'll get me
and I'll just sort of respond with a comment and
I'll go, oh my gosh, that's not you. Why are
you responding with that comment? Why are you saying that?
And they would sort of bring out this worse side
(17:52):
of me, and I'd walk away from it going I
hated the way I was in that conversation. I hated
the way I spoke, I hated that comment I made,
I hated the way I got defensive about that the
toxicity was spreading.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Well, no, and I wouldn't have said it was toxic.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
I just would have said we had sort of slightly
different approaches and views on things. But the way they
express these kind of just got my backup somehow, and
I didn't like. It wasn't about them. They're perfectly fine,
they can be who they are, but it was more
how I was responding than I hated. That was my
cue to go, all right, We're just going to limit
those interactions, because, yeah, they just go out the worst
(18:31):
in me.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
It can take a while to learn those lessons, can't it.
You can kind of put your hand on the hot
element many many times before you realize it's not for you.
Speaker 5 (18:39):
Oh my god, story of my life, right, you know,
I need my twenties now, Like I'm thirty six, Like
I feel like every year I've kind of learned more
and more and more about friendships. And you know, I'm
going through like a ladies and probably I'm not sure
if you guys have children, but I'm like, I'm pregnant
with my first baby, and like, friendships change over time,
(19:00):
and I talk about in the book as well, like
the way that your dynamic shifts and your energies shift
and who you are changes over time as well. And
that's definitely something that I've learned from psychology, but also
you know from life, like who you are when you're
in UNI versus high school versus when you start your
(19:22):
first serious relationship, or when you become a parent. You
do change as a person, and there's nothing wrong with change.
And there are times when orbits like I like to
think of, you know, friendships a bit like solar systems, right,
like where planets that align for a period when we're
both going through you know, UNI, or we're both going
(19:44):
through the stress of exams and dating, and then they
might your orbits might get a little bit more distant
as you go into a different stage of life. They're
running a business, you're starting a family, and maybe we're
not as close as we were. But there may be
times in life life where you come back together again,
you know, after a period or season, you know, your
(20:05):
orbits come closer again as you become more similar in life,
and there's nothing wrong with that. I like what you
said before, Francesca about like, it's nothing to do with
that person. It was just a we were different, you know.
I think sometimes it's okay to give ourselves that permission
to be like, look, we're just you know, it's not personal,
it's not malicious. We're just orbits are getting a bit
(20:28):
more different and where we're moving away and maybe in
time we'll move back close again. And it's not that
anyone's been bad or wrong, it's just the ebb and
flow of the natural rhythm of life. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
I mean I've always said to Luis life too well.
This is the saying that I've come to later on
in life. But life is too short for shit, friends
to put it to put it simply, you know, I
really should you know you're listening to the little things
in Our guest on the podcast today is doctor hannaolt Correll,
neuro psychologist and author of How to Break Up with Friends,
talking all friendship or.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Withack shortly after this break.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
And I would love to talk about a couple more
things when you should leave a friendship and then also
how you deal with a difficulty in a friendship, like
one that you don't necessarily want to leave but you've
sort of hit a little bit of a hiccup. We've
been talking about toxic friendships, so let's start there. Can
you fix a toxic friendship or should you just get out?
Speaker 5 (21:27):
Great question, I mean the answer is it depends often times,
you know, the question is what have you done?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
So far.
Speaker 5 (21:36):
You know, what have you tried, Have you had a
bit of a communication about this or is it a
case of you know, it's awkward, it's hard. I haven't
actually discussed with that person their behavior and how it's
making me feel. So, you know, I think the first
point of call I would never my advice would never be,
you know, break up with a friend in the heat
(21:56):
at the moment, like you know, you're a couple of
mahitos down and they've just insulted your outfit. That's often,
you know, when people want to do those things is
in the heat of the moment. We like often after
learning a bit of assertiveness or something, we tend to
see people swing like a pendulum between not being assertive
enough and then swinging right to the other other end
(22:19):
of the spectrum where they're suddenly super assertive and they're
almost two like the gung hole about it, and they're
a little bit over zealous and they might you know,
overdo it or not think through what they want to
say in a in a really considered manner. So I
would be saying, like, do nothing in the heat of
the moment. If it's you know, sit on it, hold it,
(22:40):
take a breath, go to the bathroom. Can you wait
a minute, can you wait an hour? Can you wait
a night so that you can just collect yourself. And
you know, I think I love the word integrity, right
is everything that you do doesn't have integrity? Can you
look back on that interaction and feel like you conducted
yourself in a manner that like you can be proud
out of. And often it's those heat of the moment
(23:02):
discussions where we regret something. So I would say, you know,
heat of the moment definitely not when you want to
break up with a friend, but when the situation is passed,
maybe when you're comfortable, maybe in your safe space, like
you're at home there at home, pers that's the time
where you can reach out to them to have a
conversation about the thing that has upset you. And communication
(23:24):
is really where everything seems to fall apart in so
many cases, Like you think back on those those friendships
you've had in the past where you might have drifted apart.
It is really hard to say, hey, when this happened,
it really you know, it upset me and it can
feel like a confrontation. And I think that's where a
lot of people kind of shy away from this idea
(23:46):
of breaking up with friends because they fear confrontation. They
fear that there's going to be a fight, that the
other person's going to arc up, it's going to be
airing of dirty, dirty laundry, and it's just going to
all go terribly. But you don't ultimately, you just don't
know until you give it a go. And you don't
need to, you know, bring something up in a confrontational
(24:08):
matter a way where where you're screaming or you're yelling
or you're swearing, you can articulate things in a healthy way.
And I talk about this in the book. I have
it in myay. I've got an apt call to assert yourself,
which is all about how do you communicate and the
fact that you can communicate in a way that is
not confrontational where you're saying, hey, you know, when you
did X, it made me feel why can you please
(24:32):
not do X again? Right, it doesn't have to be
I'm not yelling, I'm not screaming, I'm not swearing. I'm
staying what the behavior was. So for example, when you
call me names, it makes me feel really sad. Can
you please not call me names? Or when you make
me the butt of the joke when we go out
(24:52):
actually makes me really uncomfortable. Can you please not make
me the butt of the joke? You know, so really
calling out what is the behavior? Does it make you feel?
And then asking the person can you please not do
it again? And in a lot of cases, you know,
if someone was to say to me, hey, when you
did X, it made me feel why if a person's
telling me it made them feel uncomfortable, I would probably
(25:13):
be like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, Like I
didn't that was not my intention. Thanks, thank you for
letting me know I won't do that again. The question
now becomes do they do it again? That's when the
rubber hits the road. Right, So you've told the friend, right,
look when you leave me to pick up the tab,
or when you hit on my boyfriend or whatever it
(25:35):
is that they're doing. Once you've articulated the boundary, it's
now your job to uphold the boundary. So if they've
crossed the line you said, this behavior is not okay.
If they cross that line again and again, then you
know it takes two to tango, right, How often are
you letting that person get away with the poor treatment,
(25:57):
and this, you know, probably taps into family relationships, partner
relationships as well as friendships as well, if boundaries are
all about two people.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
It's interesting you mentioned boundaries. Louise has been fixated on
boundaries recently.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I have been, you know, I've recently dived into some
therapy and did see boundaries were an issue for me,
making them, not keeping them.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
I'm pretty good at keeping it.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
But it did help me understand the reciprocal nature of
boundaries actually, because I had some unresolved relationships stuff, you know,
family or friends, and I realized they had established boundaries
and I perhaps hadn't accepted them. And now I'm kind
of like, oh, well, okay, that's fine, I won't go there.
(26:44):
And equally it allowed me to create some boundaries with
some other things. But just if I understand this correctly,
it's right that we set the boundaries, but we're not
responsible for how that boundary is received.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (26:58):
So you know, whether it causes offense within reason obviously,
but I don't need to articulate and overstate and keep
explaining the boundary, right. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (27:07):
Look, I mean I personally I love psychology. I am
the biggest fan of seeing a psychologist. I feel I'm
a psychologist who has a psychologist like mental fitness, right,
you know, you've got to know thyself and it just
takes I think it takes living to the next level.
Like you just you have a better life when you
can understand yourself and just have someone exclusively focus on
(27:29):
you for an hour. It's really lovely. So good on you,
Louise for doing that. I'm like, kudos to you. Yeah, look,
so you know with boundaries, the tricky thing is, I
love the One of the things I learned from psychology
was I am I am responsible for my feelings, and
(27:49):
you are responsible for your feelings. And when you try
to take responsibility for somebody else's feelings, that's when you
tend to get yourself in a pickle. Because how many
times have you wanted to make someone feel better? How
many times have you wanted to make someone feel differently?
How many times have you wanted someone to like you
or you wanted someone to react and be a different
(28:10):
way or do a different thing, And you can't, as
much as you might wish for it, you can't control
another person's behavior, their feelings, or their thoughts. And if
you try to. That's usually, you know, when you get
yourself yeah, in hot water, So it's a nice you know. Obviously,
if I'm swearing at you, yelling at you, assaulting you,
(28:31):
that's that's me doing the wrong thing there. But I
can't control other people's feelings. If I say, hey, when
you did this behavior, it makes me feel uncomfortable, Please
don't do this behavior again, I'm letting the person I'm
taking some responsibility. I feel this way. My triggers are
these things. You know, when you talk about my body
(28:55):
or when you talk about my dress choice, it makes
me uncomfortable. Can you please not mention those things again?
Please don't bring them up in conversation. So I'm taking
a responsibility for how I feel, and I'm letting the
other person know, please don't do these behaviors because that's
what's triggering me. So the other person can then choose
to either respect your boundary or walk all over it.
(29:18):
And it's the same for them. They other adults also
need to know if something makes you uncomfortable, it's your
responsibility to communicate that and let the other person know
so that they don't do behaviors that then trigger you.
So I think you know, a healthy adult relationship is
about each party taking responsibility for what's theirs and the
(29:38):
other person, you know, respecting that communication and that boundary.
So there's that lovely kind of reciprocity of you can
tell me what makes you uncomfortable and I'll respect it,
and I'll hear it, and I can tell you what
makes me uncomfortable and respect how that respect and heard
it as well, And that's a healthy relationship because if
you're friends for twenty years with someone, there's going to
(29:59):
be time for you to each other off right, There's
going to be times when you step in it. No
relationships perfect. What it's about is the repair after that occurs.
How do you communicate, how do you tell the other
person you how to trigger in a boundary and do
they respect it?
Speaker 1 (30:16):
I guess it takes the assumption out of it too,
because assumption can be a real relationship killer.
Speaker 5 (30:21):
Yeah, exactly, And sometimes you don't know that that person
might be triggered, Hannah.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
As we age, I think, you know, we can go
through different ages and stages and kids at school and
then they go to UNI and we go through different
sort of stages of friends and things. A lot of
people as they get older maybe find themselves alone. Maybe
life circumstances mean that you end up moving, you know,
or maybe you're just looking at your friends going I
(30:47):
want better friends.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
How do we make friends? Especially if you're older.
Speaker 5 (30:52):
Yeah, oh my gosh, this is the age old question.
And do you know it's so interesting When I was
writing a book looking insto some statistic on loneliness, and
I found that one into there's a company called Yuga
that's done like thousands of people surveying thousand, thousands of people,
and they found out that one into people identify as
(31:14):
feeling lonely. Would you believe one in two people.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Which is half the population.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
So if you've had times where you feel lonely, you
can probably bet your bottom dollar that somebody you know
has similarly felt lonely. And if you're walking down the street,
every second person you see has had a period where
they've felt lonely. Okay, So the positive thing about that
is that every second person is looking for connection. Every
(31:41):
second person is seeking more intimacy and time with someone
who they enjoy the company of. And these are all
amazing opportunities for us to make more friends. It comes
down to what are you doing to make friends? I sometimes,
you know, do webinars and seminars and stuff, and people
(32:03):
say how do we make friends? And I go, what
have you tried? And they go, oh, nothing, they haven't
actually they haven't actually tried to make friends. So friends
don't really happen in a vacuum. You know. We don't
walk to the shops and or very rarely you would
go grocery shopping or walk along the street and spontaneously
make a friend. It takes a concerted effort to make
(32:26):
a friend. It takes an actual, active effort to make
a friend. And the key things that you know allow
you to potentially foster a friendship is proximity and time. Right,
So consistency, proximity, time. If you are going to the
same place at the same time consistently, then you will
(32:47):
meet the same people and friendship will foster. Okay, but
it's going to take just like going to the gym,
just like any other homework we have. These things take
time and they take consistency, so you know, to make
it not a chore. One of the pieces of advice
I give is find something you love. What's something that
you enjoy? You know, for me, I was really interested
(33:10):
in learning how to I moved to Sydney. I was
working in Brisbane at the time. I'd just been living
all around Australia and I'm one of those, you know,
serial movers, so like every two years I'd pick up
and move to a new place because of my you know,
doing my registry program and studying, and I just was like,
oh my gosh, I wish I had some long term
(33:31):
friends and I felt lonely. When I moved to Sydney,
I made a conscious choice that I was going to
learn how to salca dance, and so I booked in
to go to a salsa class. Past forward, three years later,
I teach salsa now as a hobby, and I just
made the most wonderful group, this wonderful community of people
(33:54):
who are all adults, who are also in the same
place at the same time every week, you know, every fortnight,
and you make a little community, and before you know it,
you know you're getting invited to you know, group parties
or group functions. You're part of a WhatsApp group and
it's that proximity to people that allows you to foster
(34:17):
a friendship. So for me, I would say, you know,
are you putting a concerted effort in find the thing
you love? What's that? What's the thing you've been wanting
to try. Maybe it's watercolor, maybe pottery, maybe it's salsa.
Find the group and then go to the group and
give it, give it a real go. So you need
to commit to every week or every fortnight. I'm going
(34:37):
to this group. I'm seeing the same people every single week.
I'm putting some consistency and effort into this. And you know,
where you water, that's where the flowers will grow.
Speaker 4 (34:47):
And finally, Hannah, I believe in twenty twenty four we can.
But can men and women have a great platonic relationship friendship?
Speaker 5 (34:54):
Yes, I definitely think you can have a beautiful platonically.
I have a lot of great guy friends. I mentioned
I sold. So part of that is, you know, you
dance with men. You know, I'm usually dancing as the follower.
My lead is usually a male, So I've made heaps
of platonic male friendships. I will say, though, you know,
honesty is important. Like the one caveat to that is
(35:16):
be honest. You know, if you have a crush on
your male friend, or you sense that that person has
a crush on you and they like you. You know,
A key part of like it being a platonic relationship
is that it is platonic and it's respectful to any
other partners you know, and that you're engaging in respectful
(35:36):
behavior like behind closed doors with that friend. And sometimes
that's a fine line to skate. And then maybe friends
who you know, perhaps you're when you're single, your behavior
with them is fine, but when you've got a girlfriend
or a boyfriend, you have to change that behavior a
little bit to be respectful of your romantic relationship and
(35:57):
just making sure that your partner is comfortable with these
people and that you're aware of your partner's comfort levels.
But yeah, I think you know, if at all parties
are honest and genuinely platonic, then absolutely you can. Some
of my best friends are males, and you know, I
wouldn't change it for the world because they give me
such a great perspective that as a woman I would
(36:19):
never have had access to.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Just to finish up, we'd just like to ask a
couple of little things that you would suggest that we
could make we could do to make sure that we
are really nurturing those very close friendships in our lives.
Speaker 5 (36:32):
Oh my gosh, that's a beautiful question. I mean one,
I love that you asked that question because that tells me,
you know, empathy is on the mind, So being a
pathetic is always amazing. I think, you know, in today's
like modern world, there's so much pressure. We have so
much stuff on, like, oh my god, guys, I can't
(36:54):
even keep on top of my emails, let alone you know,
the complex social dynamics going on in my life. But
I think you know, one little thing, one little little
thing that I would say that is nice and helpful
is just the check in are you okay? Sending the
text I'm thinking about you, the phone call, the low energy.
(37:14):
You know, there's not a lot of demand there in
terms of my time or money, but it's the connection,
like I'm seeking a connection, your energy and your connection.
It doesn't really cost you anything. It's just that little
bit of time. And maybe it's when you're driving to work,
when you get a little window of opportunity. Maybe it's
that quick text you send before you get on the bus,
but just letting that other person know that you're thinking
(37:36):
of them, that you care about them, and you're just
you're sending out that energy to that person to let
them know like, hey, like you're on my mind, I
want to catch up with you, I want to see you,
I care about you. I feel like you. Guys have
probably received texts like that in the past. It's always
really nice to know that your friend is there and
thinking of you and cares about you. And I feel
(37:58):
like that's kind of a low energy thing we can
do for each other is just you know, maybe you
have one day of the week and that's your send
a nice message to a friend day. You know, every Friday,
I'm going to send a really nice message to my
mum or my sister or my best mate, somebody. Every Friday,
I send a nice message to someone. And that's part
of my ritual to connect with people. And that's low energy.
(38:20):
A higher energy thing is can you be there for them?
Can you physically be there for them without needing to
take them for dinner or spend the money or you know, everyone,
it's cost of living is high right now, but don't
turn your nose up to just being in the house
with a person, you know, just hanging around watching a
movie with them, helping out around the house, doing something
(38:41):
where that person can just be in your company without
it costing a bomb or you guys having to go
to extensive dinner. There's so many ways you can connect
without it being something that drains you financially. So I
think that's kind of takes the pressure off.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
A little bit.
Speaker 5 (38:57):
Don't feel like every interaction has to be big special events.
Sometimes the small, small, little ones even better than the
big ones.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
I love those, Hannah. Those are really achievable.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
Thank you so much, Hannah. It has just been wonderful
to talk to you.
Speaker 4 (39:13):
Some very sensible advice I shall be pondering over.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
We really appreciate your time.
Speaker 5 (39:20):
Thank you so much. Ladies, all excellent, excellent questions. I've
loved being on a podcast.
Speaker 4 (39:31):
So, Louise, how are you managing those thirty to forty
close friends?
Speaker 2 (39:34):
I think I mess interred that a little bit.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
I know, well, I think, yeah, I think.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
You're not just one of forty.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
No, Jack, No, that's okay. Well, yeah, that's a very
good point. I wondered where I was. I was like,
can we rank them? Please?
Speaker 1 (39:47):
No?
Speaker 3 (39:47):
But I understood what she's coming from.
Speaker 4 (39:49):
Actually, if you think about the number of people that
you were going to call in the case of an
emergency that you actually wanted to help you. Yes, it's
for me, and it's probably five to two. And that's
what I was thinking about, though, those really strong, very
very close friendships and then yeah, the ones that you've
got the high energy for, and then there's absolutely another
thirty forty more that you love dearly and you're cherish,
(40:12):
but probably aren't quite such.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
A part of your days day life. But that was funny.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Can I walk in to the house and put the
jug on its kind of a pretty good day.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Yeah, probably ten of those.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
I thought there was some interesting things that I thought
was really interesting when we were talking about toxic friendships
and leaving them, and Hanna, you know, was very sensible
with her advices and don't react in the moment and
a little bit of mindfulness needs to come into play
here and you can stop and pause and think about
how you're going to react and things.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
But she was very.
Speaker 4 (40:40):
Keen on trying to repair a relationship as opposed to
just going actually, I'm done, and I think maybe at
my age as long as I am, I don't know
how much more time I would give a relationship of
friendship if it had been difficult for a long period
of time. I think I would probably, but I wouldn't.
(41:01):
I wouldn't be brave enough to have a conversation. I'll
probably just drift away.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
I felt a little immature because I was thinking, I'm
definitely not going to react in the moment. What I'm
going to do is I'm just going to go away.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Anyone ever gonna see.
Speaker 4 (41:15):
Me, We're not going to And that's the other thing.
When she was talking about boundaries and just having that conversation,
and I'm like, you know what, it makes a huge
amount of sense Onlouis, can you just not do that?
I just it just makes me feel crap. And I
can say that to you in a way that you
you wouldn't even be offended. You'd kind of go, yeah, yeah, no,
no worries. I didn't know that. But actually sitting down
and having that conversation, that's hard. I don't think we're
(41:35):
good at it.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
And I wonder if New Zealanders we're just a bit
we don't like confrontation.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
It could be a New Zealand thing, could be an
age thing, could be an anger. People might be a
bit more forthright be interested to research that a little more.
But yeah, I think we're fairly intuitive with our friendship now.
Friendshisip's been a long ride and we're very intimate in
terms of going for a run and maybe letting our
little gas here and there.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
It makes you pretty close.
Speaker 4 (42:01):
And I loved it at the end when I asked
about photonic relationships, because I think they do work.
Speaker 3 (42:06):
As long as there's some honesty on both sides.
Speaker 4 (42:09):
Thanks for joining us on our New Zealand Herald podcast series,
The Little Things. We hope you share this podcast with
the women in your life, so if you have to
bring up a boundary, she'll be.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
Ready for it.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
And you can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever
you get your podcasts. And for more on this and
other topics, head to zid herold dot co dot zed
and we'll catch you next
Speaker 3 (42:28):
Time on The Little Things.
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