Grace Curtis: Living in the wake of suicide

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks ed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
This is the Nutters Club, thanks to New Zealand air
on News Talks EDB.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Good evening and welcome to the Nutters Club, the show
that talks about your mental health every Sunday night and
Monday morning and tries to see if we can't help
you out along the way. My name's Hamish Williams, and
a very good evening to you where you might be
listening around the country, around the world. Special good evening

(00:57):
to all the fine folk of Kaitai and of the
Kaddy Cuddy Peninsula. I was up there for a couple
of days Monday Tuesday and actually the morning of Wednesday
this week, and really lovely weather Monday Tuesday up that place,
you know, the Winterless North, the Winterless North, it has

(01:18):
to be said, met many wonderful local characters and just
wanted to say what a stunning part of the country
you guys have up there, and I was very very
sad to leave. Very early Wednesday morning. I took one
of those little flights, the little tiny planes, Barrier Air,
and I got to sit behind the pilot, which is very,

(01:38):
very exciting. Actually, So what you don't know about the
little planes though, when they come into land, right, planes
don't come in nice and straight. They're not like trains
on a train track. They actually come in on like
an angle with the wind and then they just straighten
up at the last moment. And you don't realize this
when you're on one of those nicey New Zealand planes, but

(01:58):
when you're a little plane, you have a real appreciation
for actually what the pilot does. So anyway, my palms
were sweaty, and I survived, and I'm here tonight to
make sure that they the palms stay nice and calm tonight.
He's my psychotherapist, he's your psychotherapist. He's Carl McDonald Kyle
good evening cure to. Yeah, it's a beautiful part of
the world.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
In fact, actually I think one of the nicest beaches
in New Zealand is up on that Cutter Cutting, particular,
the one by the campground. I can't remember the name
of it.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yep, the Top ten camp ground there.

Speaker 4 (02:30):
Stunning.

Speaker 3 (02:31):
We had a couple of nice days at that beach.

Speaker 5 (02:33):
Actually.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, it's a primo spot. Yeah, but my palms getting
sweety when I'm coming into land. I mean that just
is that just me or people just people who landed
when Wellington or you know, is that normal?

Speaker 6 (02:46):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (02:46):
Look, I have to think it's funny when we talk
about the flight phobia, because there's nothing natural about being
in a chew but thirty three thousand feet, especially when
you get it actually, I mean, you know, the big
planes you kind of buffered from it, right, But I
think you have the right spirit. The homers just sort
of enjoy the ride if I find a way to
enjoy it, and you know, over time, hope that you

(03:08):
get conditioned to it. I mean that's the thing with pilots, right,
they're used to it. They get to the point where
they're barely thinking about it, because over time we get
used to these really strange situations as humans.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
Well, I think that's a mental health isssuman and of itself,
the fact that you know, people pilots can just become
as cucumbers flying like that.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
You kind of want them to be calm, though, don't you.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
I trust in the fact, I trust in the fact
that they know what they're doing, right, And I look
at the guys and they're doing it and they're flicking
throwing because I had like a front row seat literally
to watch the guy at work, and I was like, well,
he's very, very dutiful. He's flicking switches and looking at things,
and yeah, anyway, enough of that. Look, we've got a
wonderful guest tonight. She has just published her first book.

(03:50):
It literally hit the shelves this weekend and it's called
The Best Is Yet to Come, A cool change for
the mental health of all New Zealanders. We're going to
talk about the book a little later in the show,
but it's my great pleasure to introduce to you tonight's
our guest, Grace Kurt, New Zealand mental health advocate. As

(04:10):
it sees on the front cover of her book, Grace,
good evening, Welcome.

Speaker 7 (04:15):
Good evening, Thanks so much for having me. It's so
great to be here.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
Right before we get to the book, let's kind of
find a little bit about yourself. Tell me where were
you born, where'd you grow up?

Speaker 7 (04:25):
So I'm a proud cantab I was born in christ
Church in the year nineteen ninety seven, and yeah, I
spent most of my life down south and prior of
the South.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
This is the very christ Church question to ask, so
I just know that we ask all guests this, But
where did you go to school?

Speaker 7 (04:48):
I was expecting that. So I went to Fendleton Primary.
Then I went to Cobbham Intermediate, and then I split
my high school between Margaret and Villa.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
There we go, there we go, very very good. And look,
tell me a little bit about growing up down in
christ Church. I mean, what was life like and how
was high school for you?

Speaker 7 (05:12):
Well, high school for me was great, apart from the
fact that the very first week of high school was
the christ Church earthquakes. So I was very excited to
be a big girl and go to go to school.
And then the earthquakes hit and it kind of, you know,
turned everything upside down there for a week while. But no,

(05:32):
I absolutely loved growing up in christ Church and I
was there with my my mum, my dad, my brother,
and my sister, and we had a great time.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
Growing up in the wake of the earthquake, because I
actually remember because I think I covered it as a
news story frontline, and I remember interviewing, you know, some
some younger kids who had experienced this, this earthquake, and
it was sort of some of some of the memories
that they had were amazing. What were your memories of
that time?

Speaker 7 (06:03):
Yeah, well it was. It was a funny old thing
because christ Church never really made international news and then
you know, as a as a young person, I think
I was thirteen at the time, and then the earthquake
struck and seeing christ Church on the world stage, on
the news worldwide was something that always stuck with me
because we weren't really used to that being down south.

(06:26):
But no, I do remember the earthquakes, and you know,
I think it's something that will never sort of fade.
I always remember it. But yeah, I just remember being
with my classmates and we were in the tech science
building at the time, and the ground shock and we
all made our way out onto the school field, and yeah,

(06:47):
it was quite a chaotic time, but yeah, no, it was.

Speaker 2 (06:51):
It was.

Speaker 7 (06:52):
It was something that I didn't think would happen, and
then looking back on it, it's quite crazy that it did.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
But do you think it made communities down there come
closer together?

Speaker 7 (07:02):
Definitely? Yeah. I think in the you know, immediate few
days after the earthquakes was neighbors helping neighbors, people digging
stuff out of driveways, just helping each other. Out. I
have one funny memory, well not funny, but my dad
tried to dismantle the chimney because a lot of people

(07:25):
with you know, older houses, were trying to work out
what would be an issue for them, and the chimney
would have been an issue for us. And so a
couple of a couple of days after the earthquakes, he's
up on the roof trying to dismantle the chimney, and
we're all out on the street watching him, and there'd
be an after shock every now and then, and so
he'd be warbling up on the on the roof, chucking

(07:47):
one brick down after the other. But yeah, a lot
of a lot of neighbors helping neighbors and getting through
those those challenging few weeks.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
You really know who your friends are when you start
having that, and you know, it's as horrific as the earthquakes,
where we saw a lot of some of the best
of what New Zealand hairs, especially around christ Church. So
talk to me then about you know, what were your ambitions,
your goals, your hopes and dreams when you were finishing
up high school.

Speaker 7 (08:17):
When I was finishing up high school, I really wanted
to be a doctor. I just I really wanted to
have a career to help people, and so I left
home and went up to Auckland University. But one big
caveat I hate blood. I can't deal with blood or guts.

(08:39):
So I battled my way through first year, first year
health sciences, and I'd have to take a break every
now and then to go outside during a science lab
and put my head between my legs, And soon enough
I worked out probably wasn't wasn't the career for me.
But yeah, I wanted. I wanted to be a doctor
when I left school.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
So when when you decided that the chundering sessions at
UNI were probably not the best use of your time,
what did you decide to do in ste I.

Speaker 7 (09:09):
Then went back home, back down to christ Church and
I went to the University of Canterbury and I did
law and political science. Yeah, so it was a bit
of a switch up, left the sciences for English. But yeah,
no it it was a good time.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
And were you flatting or living back at home?

Speaker 7 (09:31):
But of both? So I lived in a couple of
flats down in christ Church and a couple of years
spent at home as well, So it was a bit
of a mixture.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
All of the sounds, you know, like a fairly normal
key we girl growing up in christ Church, going and
taking on the world type story. But it all takes
a bit of a turn. And that's why you're here tonight. Yes,
and so talk to us about what stage of life
and what it was that that happened that has brought
you to be the author of this book and here

(10:02):
with us tonight.

Speaker 7 (10:03):
Yeah. So I think, yeah, when I grew up everything,
you know, I had a pretty great childhood and nothing
really was out of place. And then the earthquakes happened,
and then a bunch of people in my life sort
of passed away, and there were a few challenging times.

(10:25):
And then in my second year of law school, I
think it was my dad. He took his life on
our family farm. And I was driving out one night
to have been with him on a Sunday actually, and
I discovered that we had lost dad to suicide. So
that's sort of why I'm here today and why I've

(10:47):
been working in this space for the past few years.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
We're going to take a break because we've got through,
but when we come back, Grace Curtis will still be
with us. We'll continue the conversation here tonight on the
Nutters Club. Back soon Nutters Club now on News Talks.
It'd be welcome back to the show. My name is
Amish Williams. And in the studio with me tonight psychotherapist
Carl McDonald and I guess a Grace Curtis. She's the

(11:14):
author of the best has yet to come in all
good bookstores now. So Grace, you know, finding your father
having taken his own life, and I mean, let's be honest,
to a really young age, what were you about twenty
or twenty two, twenty two, okay, you know, incredibly young
to be going through that. Where did you Where did

(11:35):
you go in the immediate aftermath, because you know, obviously
you were expecting to go and have a beer with
your old man that day. It wasn't exactly what you
thought was going to happen. Who did you turn to,
you know, for immediate help and took me through what
that first couple of weeks was like.

Speaker 7 (11:52):
Yeah, So when I was on my way out to
the farm, my mum and sister were on the way home,
and so I talk about it in the book, how
I woke up from a nap and I said, I've
got to get to the farm, you know, be the
first one to get there. And I don't know why
it is that I felt like it was me that

(12:14):
had to get there first, but so I did, and
then you know, discovered Dad had passed away, and then
Mum and my sister arrived, and you know, it's all
pretty chaotic and hugely traumatic and we don't wish it
on anyone. And then it was really bizarre. So the
police arrived and then they left and we were pretty

(12:36):
much like, what do we do now? So we drove
back into christ Church and I've spoken about it since,
but I just think, you know, the state of shock
that we were in, no one should have led us
in a car, or we shouldn't have been allowed to
drive anywhere. It was. It was crazy. And then it
was about, you know, six days before I received a

(12:57):
text from a support service and you know, by that time,
you'd been flooded with a bunch of condolence messages and
you're going through all these crazy stages of grief. I think,
you know, at one point it felt like nothing, nothing
had happened. And you know, I've learned to have quite

(13:19):
a lot of dark humor over the years. So I
was making all these jokes as though nothing was wrong,
and then the next minute your face with us, and
then the next minute you're back into that grief cycle.
But the first couple of weeks were just grueling, and yeah,
I don't think I got more than an hour's sleep
in that in that time. But yeah, it was amazing

(13:42):
to have the friends and family around us that we
did have, and you know, they were just there for
us every part of the day and we really needed that.
But yeah, it was pretty pretty crazy time.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
It's interesting that you talk about having the dark humor,
you know, the gallows humor, but often being able to
have the ability to be able to even find having
a laugh coming from those dark places. It can really
be a circuit breaker for those intense emotions that we're feeling, right.

Speaker 7 (14:16):
Yeah, definitely. I mean my friends who were showing up
to visit us at the house after Dad had passed away,
they would walk in so timidly and so scared of
saying the wrong thing, and just the look on their faces.
I was like, I need to do something, So I
just just make a joke and then light in the mood,

(14:40):
and then you know, we can all have a chat.
But I still remember the look on their faces like
they had no idea what they were doing. And so
I said, oh, you know, made a joke and we
went from there. But yeah, humor is the best medicine,
and laughter is the best medicine for sure.

Speaker 8 (14:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:58):
Well, because I mean it shifts things, doesn't it. And
I mean there's something there's something alive about humor, isn't there.
And it connects us too with people lay Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 7 (15:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
So you know, then then obviously you have the funeral,
and I mean I always like to say funeral for
the living, you know, because clearly the person that it's
about isn't with us anymore. But then talk to me
about the weeks that follow, because often after that you've
had a tense amount of attention, people messaging you, people

(15:32):
coming to the house, people wanting to talk to you,
and wrap that care. But then ultimately, and that's not
by being callous, but everyone's got to go back to
their life and you've got to find a way to
get on with yours. Talk to me about those first
sort of quiet moments that came in the weeks after
the funeral.

Speaker 7 (15:50):
Yeah, well that's definitely something I'd touch on in the book.
And it just so happened that Dad passed away about
four or five weeks before we went into that COVID lockdown,
so naturally we were sort of locked away from the world,
which in some ways was useful because we weren't at

(16:10):
at our best and probably you know, needed some time away.
But at the same time, sort of that isolation and
being away from people was challenging too because it was
just us at home and we were all in similar states.
So someone sort of needed to break that circuit, I guess,

(16:33):
because we were just going over and over and over
again the thoughts in our head and you know what
we were experiencing. But yeah, so Dad passed away just
before lockdown, so that was, yeah, inconvenient timing, I would say.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
So during that time that that enforced isolation, What was
it that you weren't getting that you think might have
made things more, you know, might have made things better for.

Speaker 7 (17:02):
Were well, I think a distraction and you know, being
having the choice or having the ability to go out
and to spend time with people and I guess you know,
have that laughter and see other people out, you know,
living life, reminding yourself that you know, it's not all

(17:26):
doom and gloom all the time, so that would have
been useful. But also in a way, I think the
COVID lockdowns and all the all the noise around that
was a distraction in a way as well. Yeah, I
vividly remember watching the press conference every single day at
one o'clock, you know, and that was kind of one

(17:47):
little thing that we, you know, would break up whatever
was going on for us that day. We'd all park
up and watch the one pm press conference. But yeah, yeah,
it was it was a challenging time for sure.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
I want to talk more about what you identified as
what you needed and how you kind of got to that,
but we'll take a break first and when we come
back will continue the conversation with our guest tonight, Grace
Curtis Vaccine.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
This is the Nutters Club thanks to New Zealand Air
on News Talks.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
That'd be a welcome back to the show. My name's
Hamish Williams with a psychotherapist Carl MacDonald and our guest
tonight's suicide prevention advocate Grace Curtis. So, Grace, look, because
you were going through the immediate aftermath of the grief,
you know, in the COVID lockdowns, and so really it
was just you and your family, you were all together.

(18:38):
So I guess what might be interesting is to talk
about the hindsight that you have now considering what you
didn't have because it was so isolated. What are the
things that you think would have made a difference, and
what would you like to have had happened while you
were going through that immediate aftermath of the grief.

Speaker 7 (18:59):
I guess what would have been used for was what
I ended up eventually finding, which was I guess that
sort of pear support, that that buddy system and having
someone to talk to who's been there, done that, and
in those immediate few weeks that that wasn't that wasn't there.

(19:20):
So a while after I'd reached out to Tory and Georgie,
who I do have done call change with, and it
was connecting with them that really gave me that sense of, oh,
things are going to get better, but they're rough right
now and I can accept that, but things are going

(19:42):
to get better. And I think proactive is just, you know,
proactive help, because when you're in that time of grief,
you know, you barely know how to look after yourself.
So having having wrap around and proactive support would have
been really really useful, and I guess persistent support as well,

(20:06):
because sometimes when you grieving, you're like, oh, it's fine,
I don't want to talk to anyone right now, but
then that next hour you might actually be in a
place where you do. So yeah, I think wrap around
support would be would have been amazing.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
What was it like the first time that you were
able to have that conversation with somebody else who had
been through a similar experience. What was it like for you? Oh?

Speaker 7 (20:30):
It was, it was so it was so needed. I
just felt so seen, I felt so understood, and I
felt a sense of hope because up until that point,
you know, anyone can kind of say to you, oh,
it'll be fine, things will get better, It'll be okay.

(20:53):
And I don't think it's until you hear it from
someone who's walked in your shoes or similar that you
actually believe it. So when I first made contact with
Tori and with Georgie, they were just incredible. They Tory
wrote me all these messages, these long paragraphs about what
to expect, what I might go through, how to take

(21:16):
care of myself during that time, and Georgie, having never
met me, sent me a big care package of coloring
in and chocolates and all this stuff. So if that's
not an authentic representation of, you know, the care that
people have for each other when they're in this club
that no one wants to be, and then I don't
know what it is. But yeah, it was amazing to

(21:38):
have their guidance and support.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
So prior to that, we're not feeling like anyone really
understood you.

Speaker 7 (21:45):
Oh yeah, no, I felt like I couldn't talk to
anyone raally about what I was going through, and I
was so petrified. I just remember thinking, at twenty two
years old, you know, when I'm an old lady, someone
might ask me, what's the worst thing that's ever happened
to me, and I'll know right away what that was.
And I'm in it right now and I don't see

(22:06):
a way out. So yeah, it was. It was isolating
not being able to talk to someone who's walked in
those shoes and who can really truly understand what you're
going through.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
The immediate connection when you're talking with a peer to
peer support person. In this instance, it was Tory and Georgie.
You know, it's great. You get this relief that they
understand me, they get me. But then when you're actually
trying to then help support the other people, you know,
like you know, the rest of your family, how does
that translate? You know, were you were they doing the

(22:43):
same or was it just you going and doing that
peer to peer?

Speaker 7 (22:49):
Well, I'm sorry, can you ask that again?

Speaker 2 (22:52):
So what I'm saying is that you know, you were
doing the peer to peer that was going really well,
So that was working for you, But what about the
rest of the family.

Speaker 7 (22:59):
So I was sort of passing that on to the
rest of my family, and you know, I was being
provided support from Tory and from Georgie and connecting with
lots of other families as well. And I think just
the mere fact of knowing that there's others out there
going through the same thing was made a huge difference.
And I remember being so sort of caught up on

(23:22):
a I guess a timeline of what I was experiencing,
because in the first few weeks months, I just wanted
to know at what point might I smile again, or
at what point might I do this again, or what
point might I feel normal again? And obviously timelines are
different for everyone, but Tory and Georgie definitely gave me

(23:47):
that certainty that I would experience those things that I
was used to, joy, happiness, all of that kind of stuff,
and that was, I guess the reassurance that I provided
my family was, you know, we are going to get
through this. And I think learning to accept that things

(24:07):
are tough right now is also quite useful in a
situation like that as well. I'm just accepting that it's
a crap time.

Speaker 2 (24:16):
Can you remember the first time that you did feel
that genuine joy and happiness again and what it was?

Speaker 7 (24:25):
Yes, I do, actually, And a bit of a funny story.
So the last time I ever spoke to my dad,
I was messaging him off my mum's phone and I
really wanted a dog, and so I messaged my dad
and said, you know, I showed him a photo of

(24:47):
this dog, and I said, can you know, can I
please have this dog? And he said absolutely not, And
so I went on to my mum's phone and messaged
him and said, oh, come on, you know, the kids
have had a tough time. They deserve a dog, and
he agreed to it. And then it was a couple
of weeks after he passed away that I went to
pick up that dog, And yeah, she's given me a

(25:10):
lot of joy over the years, and yeah, I credit
her a lot for me still being here. To be honest, the.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
Power of having an animal in our life. It's amazing
what our quadruped of friends can do for us, especially
and emotionally needy times.

Speaker 7 (25:28):
Right, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
Okay, we've got to take a break. When we come back,
we'll keep the conversation going with our guest tonight. Grace
Curtis back soon here on Another's club.

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Speaker 2 (27:41):
Be welcome back to the show. So just quickly because
I know there'll be people ask asking this what kind
of dog did you end up getting?

Speaker 7 (27:53):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (27:53):
Sorry, I'll tend your microphone on that'll help.

Speaker 7 (27:55):
Oh sorry, I got She's a King Charles Cavalier cross
with a b Jon. So she's she's she's a bit
of a lapdog, I would.

Speaker 2 (28:04):
Say, sounds like a bit of a hair perhaps.

Speaker 7 (28:09):
Yes, yep, she's a small but mighty big personality. And
she keeps me on my toes for.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
Sure, love it and you obviously still have the dog. Yes,
what's her name?

Speaker 7 (28:18):
Well, her name is Punkin and that is because my
dad couldn't say pumpkin, and so my friend reminded me
of my dad's terrible pronunciation, and so yeah, we named
it punkin.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
A real tribute. Yeah, Kyle, I want to bring you
in here because when we're dealing with grief it can
be a bit of a tricky one. But obviously in
the wake of suicide it's even harder because it comes
with inevitable questions and you know, uncertainties and really mixed
feelings all over the place. What are some of the
best ways when we're actually tackling that for ourselves but

(28:56):
perhaps for others, can we can we start being able
to think about how we can be of help to others.

Speaker 3 (29:02):
Yeah, well, I think the golden rule with any kind
of grief, first of all, is there's no wrong way
to do it.

Speaker 6 (29:06):
Right.

Speaker 3 (29:06):
As long as we're looking after ourselves and not doing
anything particularly harmful, we're probably doing okay. Because, first of all,
throw any ideas about the stages of grief out the window.
In fact, even Elizabeth Kobler Ross, who came up with
those stages, said it was never meant to be a timeline, right,
or you know, a journey where you pass through each one.
It just sort of gave people permission to have a

(29:27):
range of feelings. Really and that's probably the best thing
to keep in mind, is that you probably have every
feeling under the sun at some point. But for most people,
if we think about sort of I guess, uncomplicated grief,
time's the best healer. And what tends to happen is
over time, the gaps where we don't feel the distress

(29:48):
get longer and longer, and then but often when we
do feel the grief, it's still as strong, even though
it may not be as frequent. The you know, the
problem was grieving someone who's passed away because of suicide,
as it's just much more complicated. There's so many more questions.
You know, it's a sudden death, which you know, any
sudden death obviously is complicated, but then there's all the

(30:09):
questions of why and you know, what didn't you know
and what did you know and all those sorts of
things which which then can make the process not just tricky,
but actually often more intense and often longer for people too. Frankly,
but you know, like we often talk about on the
show Hamish, the kind of the worst thing you can

(30:30):
ever say to anyone grievings, aren't you over it yet?
Or imply anything of that nature because actually, especially with
people close to us, family, parents, you know, God for
but children, I don't think we ever get over it,
and I don't think we ever should. That doesn't mean
that we are distressed or miserable for the rest of
our life, but we always carry the people with us

(30:50):
one way, shape or another, which means always feeling.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
About it one hundred percent. Something I was interested in, though, Grace,
is when you connected with Tori, and that was sort
of you know who ended up in terms of giving
this story some structure. Was your peer to peer person?
How did you find How did you guys connect?

Speaker 7 (31:10):
So I just reached out to her online and I
sent her a message and said, you know, this has happened,
and I knew that her father had also passed away
that way, and I was really just looking to chat
to someone who would understand. And so that's how we
first became connected.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
Now you might be able to answer this, and if not, Kyle,
but in terms of anyone who does have someone that
they may lose someone in their life doesn't have to
be a parent, but you know, friend, family member who
they lose, you know, through suicide. Where can people go?
Because you were very proactive about it. You know, you
were quite sort of almost investigator in you about doing this,

(31:52):
which is great. But for others who might not actually
know somebody, what would you be saying to them to
take us.

Speaker 7 (31:59):
A first step, Well, I'd say, you know that there
are more and more people who are being open about
their experiences online now. And you know, back when my
dad passed away, the only person really I knew of
who was speaking openly about being bereaved by suicide was
Georgie and so I actually was recommended her page by

(32:24):
a friend and that's how we first made contact. But
you know, people are very open online now about their experiences,
and I think that's a good place to start. But
I'll always recommend seeing seeing a professional or getting in
touch with your doctor or whoever you can if you've
got the chance to. But in the wider context of

(32:47):
normalizing what you're feeling, definitely, you know there are a
few people out there who are pretty open these days,
and it helped me a lot.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah, I think the idea reach out to people, you know,
because I think what we'd find is that most of
the time if you reach out very really, I think,
will you have anyone say sorry? A bit busy today.

Speaker 3 (33:07):
Yeah, and the Mental Health Foundation actually has a great
list of support groups around the country, which I popped
up actually on a show a couple of weeks ago,
but I'll put it back up on the Facebook page.
So about Na's club Facebook page is nuas club ends it.
But you're right, Grace, I mean, essentially any skilled mental
health professional can help with the grief, but it does

(33:29):
also really help, as you've outlined, to talk to people
who've been there too.

Speaker 7 (33:33):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
I think one of the saddest things that can happen
with people whose lives end with suicide is that ends
up becoming potentially how they're defined, and yet it's just
one very small and unfortunately finite part of their life.
So if we're just to park that part and put
it aside, tell me a bit about your dad.

Speaker 7 (34:00):
My dad, he's probably he was the funniest person I
ever met. There were not often times where he didn't
have a funny story to tell, and in fact, if
you were in his company, you couldn't get a word in.
But that's just the way everyone knew him. And he

(34:23):
had the biggest heart and just loved people, loved people,
loved music, loved food. He loved food, and he just
loved being around people he loved and being happy. He
spent a lot of his life happy and laughing. And

(34:45):
so you're very right about about the ending being such
a small part of his life and who he was.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
What was some of his favorite music.

Speaker 7 (34:56):
Oh, gosh, anything really. He loved Elton John.

Speaker 2 (35:02):
Who doesn't.

Speaker 7 (35:07):
Yeah, he loved Billy Joel, Neil Diamond, all the old classics.
He was right into that. So anytime the radio was
on at home, those those songs were playing, and some
of my favorites now too.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
Was he a singer longer person, Yeah.

Speaker 7 (35:25):
But he was terrible at it, absolutely terrible, tone deaf.
He would have got on sing Star and unfortunately I
find myself there as well. So but yeah, no, he
was loved to dance also, a terrible dancer, just put
his arms up in the air and sort of sway.

(35:48):
But you know, he loved to have a good time.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
Fantastic And what it's you know, some of your great
memories because you did say you know, you had such
a great childhood with him. You know, what were some
of those sort of standout memories of things that you
guys got to do together.

Speaker 7 (36:03):
Lots of things. Really. We were always sort of outdoors
biking or running, or I was into hockey as a
young girl, and we used to put Dad in the
goal and used to smack the ball as hard as
I could with him trying to defend it. That would

(36:24):
always be a pretty good laugh. And he was not
very studious, so as kids we would we would do
spelling bees with him and he never got anything right.
So yeah, he was just he'd always make us laugh.

Speaker 2 (36:43):
Wonderful memories. I want to open up the conversation tonight
to you listening at home now, and so I guess
what we're talking about tonight really is around the managing
grief that we have in the wake of suicide. And
I'd love to hear from you guys tonight as to
what have been some of the things that worked for you,

(37:04):
What was it that you needed most? And it might
have being that it wasn't something that you got immediately,
or it might have taken a bit of time to
figure out what worked for you. But you know, Grace
has talked tonight about you know, peer to peer being
really really helpful, really critical actually to being able to
better understand what you were going through Like you said,
you know, just being able to talk to someone who

(37:26):
understood that experience to be able to give you that
hope that you can actually come through this. There is
something to look forward to. The best is yet to come.
And so what I'd like to hear from you tonight,
and it could be just that, but it could be
something else, is what is it that you needed, What
is it that you got what worked for you?

Speaker 7 (37:49):
Now?

Speaker 2 (37:49):
The phone numbers oh, eight hundred and eighty ten eighty,
or you can text us on nine two nine two.
Grace is here too, so you're more than welcome to
ask her any questions. She's written a whole book, so
I mean sheet. If she doesn't know the answer, I'll
just flex through the pages very quickly and find it
for But also too, just a reminder, we're more than
happy to talk about suicide on the show, but we
don't talk about means. So what that means in plain

(38:10):
English is we don't say how things were done. And
there's just a reason for that is because that's not
what this is about. We want to actually talk about
how to support each other with going through what's an
incredibly tough experience for any one of you, and I
know that all of you listening out there tonight will
probably unfortunately have known someone who's been affected by this
one way or the other. But tonight we're going to

(38:32):
talk about how to support each other going through this.
So your experience is your insight. Eight hundred eighty ten eighty.
Back soon the nutters class on news talks. They'd be Okay,
thank you very much for your response. Your calls coming
in eight hundred and eighty ten eighty. If you want
to join the conversation, let's go straight to it, shall we.

(38:52):
We'll go to Peter Peter good evening to you.

Speaker 13 (38:57):
Oh look, he's a lady. Her name, her name was
called Sola Fee. I was watching you on a program
on TV and sol things You see it when when
when someone when someone just look after us every members
just also if a be see it in the proangraph.

(39:18):
If you have lost someone, do not do not feel sad,
because what happens is when they pass away, they gotta
they're gonna they have to come back and repeat the
cycle game, meaning rebirth. That's why that's why you've got symbols.
You have symbols all over the world, which is called rebirth. Yeah,

(39:45):
do not feel sad. You know, sometimes we when we like,
you know, I have every members taking your lives, but
I don't feel said because I know they're gonna have
to come back as a rebirth to well, we all
get a secret. You know that the secret chances we've
got to do it properly. So you've got us what Donald,

(40:08):
you see, Earth's a lesson.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
And for all of us, for all of us, Peter, absolutely, yeah, brilliant, Yeah, Dorothy.

Speaker 13 (40:23):
Oh look, it's pretty strange because the office she's wearing
your clothing looks like sixteen, so I don't know, but
she's talking to someone in twenty sixteen. So that's what
she said, was we allu's a listen, but we're not
going to get it right. We're going to come back.

(40:45):
We have to get away.

Speaker 14 (40:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
Look, here's the thing. Completely agree in terms of the
life that we have is one that we get to
learn from from the experiences in which we go through.
And I think, you know, when you when you talk
about the idea of of of rebirth and going on,
I think sometimes that that is right in terms of
how we apply the memories of people. And I think,
you know, Grace, you talked about that and the naming

(41:09):
of the dog, you know, and it's not Pumpkin, it's
Pumpkin because you know, there's a connection. In many ways,
that's a reburse in terms of like the memory of
people and how we remember those that we lose to
suicide going forward. Like I said, I think it's really
important that you know, we don't define that, don't have
the life defined by that.

Speaker 8 (41:28):
It is.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
It is horrific, it is finite, but at the same time,
it's about how do we actually remember the person and
all of the wonderful qualities of them.

Speaker 8 (41:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
One of the little things we do in my family
is with parents and grandparents that we've lost, is we
always celebrate their birthday still, which I think is really important.
And we had conversations in our family about you know,
not not forgetting the days that they pass, but actually
not marking those days so much as actually marking their
birthdays because that's a celebration of who they were. Yeah,

(42:01):
And so I think those little traditions, those little ways
that we will have in our own sort of families
and groups of people to sort of mark these things
and remember really important. Like you say, how much it
keeps people alive in a funny kind of way, doesn't it.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
How have you got about keeping the memory of your
dad alive? I mean, obviously the book is one part
of it.

Speaker 7 (42:21):
Oh well, I talk to him every day. I talk
to you know, a lot of people I've lost every
day and just every now and then. I just fill
them in on my day and talk as though they're
still the air. And I think that's actually helped me
a lot. Sometimes I get grumpy at him, tell them

(42:41):
that too, But yeah, we we celebrate his birthday. You know,
I watch old videos. He's still very much a part
of my life today and you know, I'll keep it
that way forever. But yeah, I still I still go
on as though as though he is here.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
And I think that's a really important thing too that
you touch on there, as having that range of emotions
about the situation and is good too. You know, it's
not as though there was any emotion, whether it be
you know, grief or you know, happiness for happy memories
or anger at the situation. Nothing should be off limits
in terms of how you actually feel about it, right, Yeah.

Speaker 7 (43:22):
No, definitely, there's a range of emotions, and you know,
my advice is just to let it all happen when
it's happening to you, and don't suppress it.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
Very very good. Right, We are about to go to
New Sport and whether and then we're going to continue
to have the conversation with you here tonight. I can
see your calls are still coming and got a couple
of lines free there. We'd like to talk about your
experiences in the wake of suicide. How did you find
dealing with grief? What worked for you, what did you need,
what did you get where did you find it? Would

(43:55):
like to have your contribution here tonight. We'll be back
very soon here on the Nutters Club.

Speaker 4 (44:01):
on Newstalks.

Speaker 2 (44:05):
That'd be previously on the Nutters Club. We were joined
by our guest Grace Curtis. She's the author of a
brand new book that's just it the Bookshelves. No, it's
not a different kind of power, it's the best is
yet to come, a cool change for the mental health
of all New Zealanders. This has been inspired by Grace's
own journey with living in the wake of suicide. She's

(44:29):
lost a few people to suicide that she knows, but
The book focuses primarily on the experience that she had
with her father, who, when she was twenty two years old,
took his own life. What she found that worked really
well for her was being able to have access to
peer to peer support. What happens, obviously, is when we
lose people in tragic circumstances, people do exactly what you

(44:51):
would expect them to do. They rally around, they send
those messages, they turn up for the funeral, They all
come and do exactly the right thing, and then inevitably,
this isn't a criticism. They've got to go back to
their lives and you've got to learn to get on
with yours. But it can be really lonely, and it
can be very hard when you're trying to figure out

(45:12):
how anything is ever going to look normal again once
you've gone through such an incredible experience like losing someone
close to you through suicide. For Grace, being able to
have that peer to peer person, this is someone who
she could talk to and sort of semi counseling set up,
who understands the experience that she was going through, was

(45:33):
actually able to give her hope that things not only
could get better, that they would now we know that
peer to peer support counseling is utterly critical to people's
mental health in this country. It's one of the big
findings from the mental health survey that was done in
a few years back, and it continues to be of
vital importance to this day. But what I'm interested to

(45:56):
find out from you tonight on the show is what
has worked in your experience. Also to you know what,
I'll also ask what didn't work, because sometimes it's about
finding Sometimes it's easy to know what doesn't work so
you can get to where it does. We would very
much welcome you calls on this. Oh eight hundred and
eighty ten eighty is the number. The only thing that

(46:18):
we don't talk about when it comes to suicide is mean.
So that's saying how things happened. That's not what this
is about. This is about finding out how we can
support each other and what some of our darkest days.
Grace is still with us. She hasn't gone. We've allowed
her to stay for the second hour. I say that jokingly.
Of course, I've got psychotherapist Krle MacDonald in the studio

(46:40):
with me as well. So we welcome you texts. We
welcome your calls. Let's go to text message here. This
one just says, Hi, guys, my wife died from suicide
nearly ten years ago. Well, the grief was hard. It
was the guilt that I struggled with the most. I
think the guilt would not allow me to grieve. It

(47:01):
was my young daughter that provided the distraction from the
horror of the situation. Suicide is a permanent solution to
a temporary problem. So grace was that something that you
had at all? Was I mean, I mean guilt to me,
there's all sorts of emotions, But was that something that
you can can relate to it all? Hold on, I
had to push a button that I hadn't pushed. Try there.

Speaker 7 (47:24):
Absolutely, I felt a lot of guilt when Dad passed away,
and shame too.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
What was the guilt that you were feeling? What were
you feeling guilty about.

Speaker 7 (47:34):
I felt guilty about conversations I'd had with him that
I didn't maybe do enough, maybe that I didn't know
what was really going on. I just felt guilty over everything,
really and questioned everything for the longest time, every conversation,

(47:55):
every moment that I could have done something differently. And yeah,
guilt was a huge part of it and took a
long time to work through that.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
What was it that allowed you to let that guilt go?

Speaker 7 (48:08):
I think accepting that, you know, Dad taking his life
wasn't just you know, something that he had thought about
for the longest time and he chose to leave his
family and all of that, and rather he was unwell
and he needed help and we all needed help. And

(48:31):
I guess that's what helped me move through that guilt,
is that you know, we were doing the best with
what we had at the time, and yeah, that helped
me move through that. Those guilty those guilty feelings.

Speaker 2 (48:45):
I'd love to hear from anybody else lessening tonight, if
that's something that you went through and whether or not
you know what Grace has talked about there resonates your
experiences with that would be great. Oh, eight hundred and eighty,
ten eighty. Let's go to the lines. We've got Bruce
on the line. Bruce, good morning to you.

Speaker 6 (49:03):
To narkquare morning. Let's go.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
Good to hear your voice.

Speaker 13 (49:07):
Bruce.

Speaker 6 (49:08):
Yeah, this is the third son it's done himself and
since two thousand and seven. The third one was last
month twenty seven. I'm sixty three. That's what I thought
these phones were all about. But I'm mistaken.

Speaker 2 (49:35):
What do you mean by that?

Speaker 6 (49:36):
Michael Son hung himself a month ago, and I thought
seu phonons were the contact you know, when you need help,
you reach out, Yes, but he order did that. He
never did that. Yeah, I'm trying to pick my life up.

(50:01):
Just pulling away from Parmerston or coming back to Tabookie
three times. My vehicle break down three times. I had
to go back to Parmas and ort to get it
fixed over three weeks. But it gave me time to
spend with these codes that are down here. I still

(50:22):
can't understand why.

Speaker 13 (50:25):
That's so.

Speaker 6 (50:25):
I find it hard to sleep. Paying I've been for
professional help. They said to keep off the drugs and
the alcohol, long walks, exercise, and keep busy. How are
you going?

Speaker 3 (50:42):
How are you going with those suggestions that they made.

Speaker 6 (50:45):
I live on the farm and Ta Pockey, so I'm
keeping busy. Yeah, I'm doing the house up, the souls
villa else and the Pokey and that's what's keeping me
going on day to day. Yeah. I reached out to
my doctor and all that, and I've they'll check on

(51:08):
me every week. See how my progress is because I
actually felt like joining these kids. I don't know what
it is.

Speaker 2 (51:18):
Well, I'm glad that you're glad that you're talking with
your doctor. Has that progressed to perhaps talking to the
counselor at all?

Speaker 8 (51:25):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (51:25):
Yeah, I've reached out to them. They touched spacial with
me last week. They'll touch facial with me again this week.

Speaker 4 (51:33):
God.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
Yeah, But I just so you go, Bruce, there you go,
don't you go? Then I will listen to you.

Speaker 6 (51:43):
Oh no, I just wonder that there's any other like
families up there. How I feeled coming back, you know,
trying to pick your life up, and what is the
best medicine?

Speaker 8 (51:57):
Well?

Speaker 6 (51:57):
Is it just a time of hearing?

Speaker 5 (52:01):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (52:02):
Well, it's a great it's a great question, Bruce, and
we'll open that up because I think what you've gone through,
especially is you know, it's a bit different because you know,
Grace lost her father, so you know, someone who was older.
You've lost people that are younger, and I think that
that's really hard as well. And so I wonder if
there's anyone else listening who perhaps might be a little
bit further down their experience with grief than yourself. But

(52:25):
what I wanted to say, Bruce is that don't please
don't feel that you have to wait for the doctors
to check in on you if you do want to
connect with anybody, have you? Do you know about the
number one seven three seven?

Speaker 7 (52:39):
No?

Speaker 2 (52:40):
I don't, right, So one seven three seven is the
National Mental Health Help Line and the people on the
other line, they are all trained counselors. They're there twenty
four to seven and they're connected to services all across
the country, so it doesn't matter whether you're in Topoke,
Palmerston North or Eka Tahuna, you'll be able to get

(53:03):
her you need. And so it might sound a little
funny because it's just four numbers, but it's it's a
free phone and just die one seven three seven. You
can also text them if you like anytime.

Speaker 6 (53:16):
Okay, then no worries.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
So what was the number, Bruce, just so I know
you got it?

Speaker 6 (53:21):
One one seven free seven perfect?

Speaker 2 (53:26):
Hey, Bruce. I love that the doctors are checking in
on you and that's really awesome. But would you mind
checking back in with us next week as well? Yeap,
No worries, alright, mate, I'll look forward to hearing from you. Okay,
go well, Bruce cheers mate. All right, that's tough. Yeah, yeah,
it is, and it's it's a it's you know, it's

(53:48):
a hard thing to talk about. But that what Bruce
talked about in terms of feeling like you wanted to
join them. You know, we know that people close to
people who have suicided are often.

Speaker 3 (53:58):
At a higher risk. Okay, And I think it's just
important to say that tonight, because you know, if you
have people in your life who are in that situation,
keep an extra special eye on them.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
To yeah, don't wait for uh, don't wait for people
to reach out. Sometimes even just the text being like
I hope you're having a good day, anything like that.
Absolutely thinking of you. Yeah, all right, thinking of you.
I'm just going to take a break and then when
we come back, I've got Trish on the line, but
I've got a couple of free lines still. So eight

(54:29):
hundred and eighty ten eighty would love you to join
the conversation or flick us a text too, if you like.
Nine two back soon here on the Nartist Club Nutt's
Club now on News Talks. I'd be I think so much.
Your calls are coming in, thinking fast appreciate that. Let's
get straight back to you. Just reminding you our guest
tonight as Grace Curtis. She's suicide prevention advocate. She's written

(54:49):
an amazing book, The Best is Yet to Come, a
cool change for the mental health of all New Zealand
as well worth a read. Let's go straight to the lines, Trish,
good morning to you.

Speaker 15 (55:01):
Hello, how are you good?

Speaker 10 (55:03):
Thanks?

Speaker 15 (55:05):
Is in a subject tonight just reminded me of a
sad happening, And it was quite some time ago, but
it does come to mind every now and then. And
it was concerning a lovely young boy who actually he

(55:26):
took his life too, but he often We lived by
the beach, both of us, and he often used to
walk past my house and I'd go out and have
a chat with him, and he'd be carrying his surfboard
and off to the beach. And yeah, and after that,
I remember walking when I found it he had passed away.

(55:50):
I remember walking around my house, you know, saying to myself,
what can I do? You know, what can I say?
There are just no words, you know. So finally I
wrote the sweet poem and it just says surf on
and sweet peace in the warmth of the sun, float

(56:11):
gently on the waves, you precious, perfect one, and.

Speaker 6 (56:16):
You know the.

Speaker 15 (56:21):
Goodbyse he was. He was just so young. And you
know the service, if you could call it, that was
held on the beach and you know, on the flyer
that they had and I don't know if that's the
right word or not, had a picture of him surfing

(56:41):
in the sea and the poem that I wrote was
on it too.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
That's lovely.

Speaker 15 (56:47):
It was just so so sad because your lovely young
man that you know, spent time having a chap to
an old lady who.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
Years and Treasa say, it's lovely that you wrote that poem.
How did how did you feel after you had written
that and been able to share that, you know with
his family and friends. What did that mean to you?

Speaker 15 (57:07):
Well, you know, writing poems three years I've written about
hisself and you know, as I said, I was walking
around the house thinking what earth can I do? What
can I say? And they were they really loved the poem,
so that's why they put it on the fly You know,
there's a we service they had for him at the beach,

(57:30):
but it's not where he passed away, you know, it
was at his house, so it was really sad.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
Well, look, thank you for being able to share that.
And I think it's wonderful that, you know, we can
have people like yourself who find the words and they
must have really resonated for someone to think that they
wanted to put that on, as you call it, the flyers.
So well done, Trash. Thank you for being so considerate
for others.

Speaker 15 (57:56):
Yeah yeah, well, you know I love to give people
value with poems too, but most of them are funny,
you know, and it's very difficult to write a serious poem,
which I have done from time to time when the
occasion comes up.

Speaker 2 (58:12):
Yes, so well, I think you nailed it on this one, Trash.
Well done, Thank you, and thank you for honoring the
memory of your friend.

Speaker 15 (58:22):
Yes, well you know it is your subject tonight. It
really brought it back to me again, you know. So
it's difficult for everybody that's lost somebody.

Speaker 2 (58:33):
Yeah right, okay, thanks for your time, go well, Trashed,
Thanks for the call. I think that's the thing, isn't
it too, Is that everyone finds their way in order
for how they want to deal with it, and maybe
it's writing a poem.

Speaker 3 (58:46):
Yeah, whatever works.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
What ever works, let's keep going. We can go to
David now, David, good morning to you.

Speaker 8 (58:53):
Good, I'm ready.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
How are you, David.

Speaker 8 (58:57):
I'm just trying to dodge a lightning storm at my
own about our breath.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
We don't don't get hit by lightning, please.

Speaker 8 (59:04):
I'm trying not to. I just ducked under a boat
maritime security. I have two friends that killed themselves, one
of my best friend and another friend I made later
on in life. You know how faith helps people with
dealing with suicide, I think, and they don't mean to

(59:25):
offend anyone the other. The other side of it is
she really missed her mum and she believed in the afterlife,
so she killed herself to go and meet her mum.

Speaker 2 (59:36):
Yeah, we were just talking about Yeah, we were just
talking about that. David mcle brought that up yere.

Speaker 8 (59:42):
Yeah, it was a caller a couple of a couple
of ghosts. He wants to go and join them. That
made me remember it. And the other guy I knew
who died his brother, killed himself and then on her
ten year anniversary of that of that suicide, he my
friend then killed himself and the family alone, and because

(01:00:05):
he wanted to go and see him and I'm not
a person who believes in that kind of stuff, and
I just like it angers me because left my god
daughter on our own, and like, I don't know, I
just can't. I think sometimes that those kind of beliefs
do more damage than good. If you actually think you're

(01:00:27):
going to go to a paradise and meet the person.

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
Well, let's just let's just to discuss it for what
it is, David, and I mean, Kyle, if we can
bring you in here. Yeah, it sounds to me like,
you know that the idea, especially if you're getting funny
around anniversaries and dwelling on the loss, I mean, is
that unresolved grief.

Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
Well, I think that the thing that we talked about
earlier in the show about you know, people knowing someone
who has suicided being at risk of suicide is more
about introducing the concept of something that you then think about.
And it's natural when we're experiencing distress to get stuck
on distressing thoughts, and so what you often find when

(01:01:07):
you talk people is that actually what tends to happen
is they've gotten stuck on this idea as something that
is kind of traumatic right by definition, and traumatic experiences
and feelings are things that get stuck like a stuck
needle on a record, right, we get.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
Rumination as the technical tempt.

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
So I would suggest that for people it's more about
that because actually, you know, if anyone was to speak
seek spiritual counsel from someone who was you know, a
priest or a pastor or someone of their faith, they
would certainly not be advocating for suicide. So I think
it becomes a way for people to tell themselves a

(01:01:48):
story that fits the distress that's already there.

Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
If that makes sense, Well, how does that sound to you, David?

Speaker 8 (01:01:55):
Yeah, it's just I think the people who are living
and what the damage you're going to do to them,
and if you claim you love them, they're far more
important than a person who's not alive right now going
to meet them, right. I don't know what her dad,
mum was more important than her live young daughter. I
just I can't sell them it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
Yeah, And I guess that's the thing too, as we
talked about, is that ultimately we don't get to have
that conversation because one half of the person and sorry,
one part of the conversation is no longer there, so
you know, and that's that those are the questions that
we're left to try and make our own peace with.

Speaker 8 (01:02:32):
I just don't know how people deal with the anger,
Like how could they claim to love me as they're prepared?
Like there's no pain on earth. I've been a recovered
heroin addict, I've been hostage, been in wars. There's no
pain on earth that would make me make me kill
myself because of the pain I had the gun in

(01:02:53):
my mouth, right, but the pain I have bought it
to do to my family, my mum's face that well,
I didn't do it, and I just can't.

Speaker 14 (01:03:01):
I don't.

Speaker 8 (01:03:02):
I'm trying to be sensitive, but I feel so much anger.

Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
Okay, well let's talk about that with you, Grace, Like,
how did how did you did you deal with the anger?
You know, when when you when you were feeling that
emotion if you you know, like you're saying, you know
you feel a bit grumpy and cross with your dad
at times? How do you deal with that? How do
you remedy that?

Speaker 7 (01:03:23):
For you? I was definitely angry, you know. I went
through a range of why did you do this to us?
Why did you leave us? All of those emotions and
I actually just I posted processed it all. I didn't
shy away from that anger. I went through it, and

(01:03:46):
you know, it wasn't pleasant, but I processed it and
then I got to a place of peace and acceptance.
But it can take a while, and you know, I
don't think. I think learning more about mental health helped
me as well to understand why why people you know,

(01:04:09):
may end up taking their lives. I don't think it's
always down to a thought decision to hurt anyone left.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
Behind Cole being angry about it, is that just part
of this all? Is that a normal reaction or is
it something that we should stuff down and push aside. Yeah,
it is a very.

Speaker 3 (01:04:30):
Normal reaction, Okay. Ultimately, anger is emotion. That is an
emotion that we feel when there's something that we need
to fight or attack to protect ourselves, or there's a
frustration or something in our life that we can't get
over or is blocking or thwarting.

Speaker 4 (01:04:44):
Us in some way.

Speaker 3 (01:04:44):
So obviously it's kind of the opposite of acceptance in
that respect. Right, So, even though it's an incredibly hard
task easy to say but hard to do, it is
about finding ways to be able to accept and let
go of control over reality, which is that this thing
has happened and there's nothing that we can do about it,
because ultimately, what anger does, if it sticks around, is

(01:05:06):
it only harms us. And I guess the other thing
I would say is for most people, in most instances,
suicide is actually about them trying to escape the pain
that they're in. Like Grace said, it's not about hurting others.
It's not about you know, making rational decisions about you know,
the impact that's going to have effect. Often people don't

(01:05:27):
either don't think about that or genuinely believe that the
people that love would be better off without them. So
as paradoxical as it sounds, it's often in their mind
and active caring, you know, or concern for the people
they care about. So it's complicated.

Speaker 2 (01:05:43):
David, thank you so much for your call. We have
got to take a break, but I would love to
have your contribution to the conversation tonight, Oh eight hundred
and eighty ten eighty dealing with the grief of suicide.
What has worked for you, what hasn't worked for you?
Where are your questions when it sits around us? Because

(01:06:03):
I'm hearing of f you tonight, which has been really
good for us to work through. Grace has had first
hand experience with us. You've got clinician Kyle here. What
are your questions around this? What do you want to
share with those listening tonight? Oh eight hundred and eighty
ten eighty back soon.

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
on News talksz'b.

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
Hey, welcome back to the show. Thanks so much for
your calls and your texts coming in this text test
says Hi, Yep, I've lost a few to this. One
thing I came up with is this. You've got to
try not to think of what it could but what
if or could have I done something? It's hard, but

(01:06:43):
it's no point. You got to know. It's a moment
in time for the one that did it. And sorry
to say, but it's their choice to go. There was
nothing you or anyone could have done. You just got
to find a way through. And there is someone who
was thinking of it or you know someone just tell
them one more day. If nothing gets better, get help

(01:07:06):
and give it one more day. It will get better.
And I think there's something to really be said about that.
Thank you, beautiful text. There is something to be said
about that is that. You know, there's that saying, and
I'm sure you've heard it. You know, this too shall pass.

Speaker 13 (01:07:22):
But you know what.

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
I love when you think about, you know, different historical
times in the world's history. And sometimes, you know, we
like to imagine that, you know, because of whoever's president
or what's happening in this part of the world. But
sometimes it's catastrophically different, and it's never made more catastrophic
than now. But these things have happened, and what we
go through as people, others have had, you know, similar stresses,

(01:07:47):
They have had similar challenges and they got through too,
So you know, just give it one more day. Things
can have a funny way of coming right and all
sorts of different, weird and wonderful ways. You know, life, life,
everybody is full of possibilities. Death, it's very finite. So
think about that. One of the ways I like to

(01:08:09):
approach it. Okay, we've got a call. Let's go to Kate. Kate,
good morning to you.

Speaker 14 (01:08:16):
Yeah, Hi, I want to express something. So if you
don't want me to speak the way I'm saying, and
please just tell me.

Speaker 7 (01:08:25):
So.

Speaker 14 (01:08:26):
I am quite shocked in New Zealan at the level
of statistics around suicide. But I actually was witnessed to
someone trying to kill themselves.

Speaker 2 (01:08:37):
Right, Happy for you to keep talking about it, Kate,
but just no details about about itself. Just just being clear.

Speaker 14 (01:08:45):
I want to know what the effects and what I
witnessed to the logic around it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:50):
If you don't, you know, that's fine, that's all good.

Speaker 14 (01:08:52):
Yeah, I understand, thank you for telling me that. But
I actually was a victim of the situation. So I
was a victim of drug rate by a husband of
this person, and it took this person to commit suicide
after they found So I was a victim and then
this person, the wife, became a victim as well. So

(01:09:16):
in that moment when I saw this person.

Speaker 4 (01:09:18):
Do this, she was.

Speaker 14 (01:09:20):
I do know, well, I don't didn't know very well,
but I didn't know that she was quite a loving mother, gentlemen,
so that the situation took an extreme. So that's closed down.
So we know the picture there. But what I saw
was when I saw it, I believe that in control

(01:09:41):
of your mind, you don't know in that split second
from what I witnessed, is you black out. So the
sad thing is is the narrative, at least the narrative
is resolved. It's like narrative therapy, removing a problem away
from the person. But when you're in the moment. The

(01:10:02):
worst thing I believe for anyone, and I say it
to anyone in New Zealand anyone because we're only news
is there, don't do it. There are so many places
and so many people, and it will take time. So
this person was helped under mental health and the pathway

(01:10:23):
was great. There was a narrative for me that I
wasn't helped at all two today. So that was two
thousand and one and we're talking about two twenty five. Yeah,
so I've had a really terrible asking for help was
absolutely shocking because I was a victim, innocent, and because

(01:10:46):
the police take the hand of the courts, not me
in the right hands. I'm still asking for help and
I believe hopefully this year I will have somebody correctly
in front of me to walk me around my all

(01:11:08):
narratives of what happens to me.

Speaker 2 (01:11:11):
To Kate, just when you were talking about the blacking
out part, you know that the blacking out in the moment,
I think that's really important because Kyle, who's our psychotherapist
in the studio here tonight, Kyle was nodding furiously. So, Kyle,
what was going on there when you were hearing Kate
talking about that blacking out on the moment past. Yeah,
it's distressing.

Speaker 3 (01:11:31):
But one of the things we know about suicide is
it actually, when you talk to people who have survived
suicide attempts, often people aren't actually thinking about being dead
neither not.

Speaker 5 (01:11:40):
They're not.

Speaker 3 (01:11:41):
I mean, it's true to say that they are literally
not in their right mind. And so even though they're not,
they would say I'm trying to kill myself. They also,
at the same time may not fully conceive that their
actions will lead to them actually being permanently dead. The
other thing that we know, which is also kind of
is a really difficult fact to get your head around to.
Some research suggests that around about fifty percent of people

(01:12:03):
who complete suicide or attempt suicide in a serious way, well,
I've only spent sort of between ten and twenty minutes
thinking about it. So it's often a very impulsive act
as well, and so it's really complicated, and it's often
the other thing which is really tricky, and you're right,
we need to talk about this more too, is it's
actually often not always associated with clear mental health diagnoses.

(01:12:26):
So you know, we talk about depression, we talk about anxiety,
we talk about trauma, which often are associated with suicide,
but not always. But just coming back to what you're
talking about, I did just want to check with you.
I guess whether you're aware of the acc sensitive claim
scheme in terms of your own experiences and support.

Speaker 14 (01:12:44):
I was my friendship doctor covered up my drug rate, right,
and so I took it to Health and Dispolity, and
when we were aligned with the forendship doctor, she had
turned herself from a what do they call it, a
just a part time friendship doctor into a clinical director,
so she took the hands of the case it up

(01:13:09):
as she was being served by Health and Disability. So
from two thousand and five to twenty twenty five, she's
literally they've all just covered it up. So it was
supposed to go to Anthony Hilda Commissioner in two sixteen,
the whole file, right, and they just covered it up.
And so right now I've got a safe address in

(01:13:31):
my private rental and I'm really proud about myself because
when I talk about removing the narrative away from the
person humanity is my interest. But you know, coming back
to that suicide bit accumulation, what I saw with this
particular person that I was in front of, and it

(01:13:53):
just toppled for both of us because we both didn't
have any experience of what had happened to me by
her husband and what she'd done he'd done to me.

Speaker 3 (01:14:00):
Yeah, I just want to I think it's important to
say though that the way the ACC sensort of claimed
scheme works funding for counseling is that you're under no
requirement to prove anything legally or forensically. It's literally on
your word with a counselor, and it's private and confidential
to you and to ACC's sensitive claims units. So the

(01:14:22):
fact that anything may have been covered up or there's
no evidence of it that you're able to obtain, makes
no difference to you being able to obtain that psychological support.

Speaker 2 (01:14:31):
And how do people get access to it can't.

Speaker 3 (01:14:33):
The website to use is called is just find Support
dot co dot nz. That's an ACC site, but it
lists all of the people in New Zealand who are
registered to do that work. And you don't have to
have direct contact with ACC either. You can actually just
talk directly to the counselor who's registered and they can
take the process from there.

Speaker 2 (01:14:50):
And you've had a bit of experience on the other
side of being on the council side, and you've got
quite a lot of faith in the system.

Speaker 3 (01:14:55):
I do, and you know the way the system works now,
people can often get up to sort of two years
without actually having to even go through an intensive review process.
So there is a lot of support for people abouidable
it's fully funded, you don't have to pay a search
charge or anything. O.

Speaker 2 (01:15:08):
Hopefully that's have helped you. I would say, go and
give that a go. And most importantly, considering what you
went through, even though twenty four years ago, remember there's
no statute limitations on the ACC funding. You very much
are worthy and deserve to have that support because what
you went through was horrific. Yeah, thanks for calling. We've
got to take a break. When we come back, we'll

(01:15:29):
keep having you with grace. Got to another couple of
texts have come in keep the conversation going. You're most
welcome to join eight hundred and eighty ten eighty back soon.

Speaker 4 (01:15:37):
It's overnight talk on news talks.

Speaker 2 (01:15:39):
That'd be Hey, welcome back to the show. Look, thanks,
I've got a text here from Cat, and Cat just says,
thanks so much for talking about this. It's a difficult topic,
but it's so important for those of us who struggle
with suicidal ideations to hear the experiences of how others
feel after that horrible loss. Say no, wherries, Cap much appreciated, Grace.

(01:16:03):
The book that you've written, the best is yet to come.
I mean, for a start, well done. You've written a book.
You know, they say everyone's got a book and them
KRL wrote a book. Yeah, we're waiting for yours. Hash anyway,
a moving right along. What are you hoping to get
out of putting this together and putting this out there
for people? What's what's the hope that this is going
to achieve?

Speaker 7 (01:16:23):
So I think to start with, I want to show
people that you can be at rock bottom and then
you can be below rock bottom and below that and
still find your way out of it. That's that's the
first sort of point of the book. You know, I
was in a really dark place after Dad passed away,

(01:16:45):
and I thought I was stuck like that forever and
that I wouldn't ever have you know, an exciting life
and fun things to do, and my life now is
a stark contrast to what it was after Dad died.
So that's point number one, and then the second is
opening up our story so that we can find solutions

(01:17:07):
as a society. You know, there were a lot of gaps.
We fell through the cracks, both with Dad in the
system and then ourselves afterwards. So that's sort of the
second purpose of the book is to come together and
find solutions and move forward.

Speaker 2 (01:17:24):
It's quite broad, right in terms of sort of talking
about where to start with when it comes to the
gaps and falling through the cracks, as you put it,
Where do you think is some of the ones that
are are most important and easily achievable in terms of
just having some attention paid to them in the first instance, I.

Speaker 7 (01:17:41):
Think a big one is mental health literacy. Like before
Dad passed away, I, you know, I knew very little
about mental health and how it can impact you physically
and otherwise, And since since his death, I became fascinated
by it and wanted to learn more because I wanted

(01:18:03):
you know, I experienced depression, anxiety and PTSD and I
wanted to know if there are ways I can help
myself get through all of that, and you know, I
learned a lot throughout that process, and I wish other people,
you know, knew. I might only know five percent now,
but that's five percent more than I knew a few

(01:18:23):
years back, and it really does make a difference because
it means I can take better care of myself today.

Speaker 2 (01:18:31):
In terms of going about you know, mental health literacy.
Where do we begin it? You know, is it something
that we start in the home. Is it something that
you teach in the schools? You know, what would your
vision be for how we go about enacting it.

Speaker 7 (01:18:45):
I think it's something that you develop over time. So
I've probably gained knowledge over a number of years rather
than just, you know, spending a whole week reading a
bunch of scholarly papers and then all of a sudden
I'm an expert. Doesn't quite happen like that. I used
podcasts and I did what they call habit stack. So

(01:19:11):
while you're tidying up your kitchen or whatever, you chuck
on a podcast from a trusted source about you know,
a mental health condition, or how you can manage your
sleep better, or you know what things might be be
great for your well being. And I did that over
a number of months, and I continue to do it today.

(01:19:32):
So I'm constantly building up that knowledge. And if I
experience something in the moment and I'm like, oh, that's
a bit weird. Haven't had that before, I go and
look for a reason why it might be, rather than
just accept that that's who I am in that moment.

Speaker 2 (01:19:48):
Awesome, Awesome. We have got to take a break when
we come back. If you have any further calls, questions,
texts that you want to send in, then you know
what the phone number is, Oh, eight hundred and eighty
ten eighty, or you can text us on nine two
niney two. We'll be back shortly here on the Mother's.

Speaker 4 (01:20:05):
Club, Nutter's Club. On News Talks, it'd be Hey.

Speaker 2 (01:20:10):
Welcome back to the show. My name's Samish Williams. I've
got our guest and here with us Grace Curtis, a
suicide prevention advocate and psychotherapist Kyle MacDonald. Look, I really
just wanted to be able to have a little bit
of a wrap up here, and Kyle, what I wanted
to come back to is, you know, everything that Grace
has gone through here in trying to pull together all

(01:20:30):
of her thoughts and experiences and not trying to She's
done it, you know, she's done the book. It's awesome.
How do we get out in front of it? Though,
because the kind of what's glaring to me here tonight
is that we're all talking about these experiences after the
fact rather than getting in front of it, which I
guess is part of what you're hoping to do with
the book. But then my next question is, and I'm

(01:20:54):
trying to be really positive about this, but how do
we actually get the book in front of people and
get them to consume it before they've been affected by
by suicide? Because that, to me seems to be where
we sometimes are not quite getting that chicken and egg
thing right.

Speaker 3 (01:21:11):
Well, one of the things I've done is I put
a link to the book on the Notice Club Facebook page,
so that might get a few more people absolutely before
they need it.

Speaker 2 (01:21:20):
But it's a great question.

Speaker 3 (01:21:21):
I mean, I think I've got you know, as you know,
I've got two girls fourteen and eleven, and they've grown
up in a rather strange household with a therapist for
a dad. So they critique the mental health education that
they get at school, right, and some of it actually
these days. I have to say it is pretty bloody good,

(01:21:42):
you know. The Mighty Program John Coowan's charity is one
of the options at my kids primary school at least,
so we are having the conversation more and I think,
you know, sometimes we also have to remember that we
have to start back at the beginning, which is with
the generation that's the youngest. We always know that men

(01:22:03):
your dad's age, are our age and older are always
the toughest nut to crack with this stuff, and so
finding ways to be able to talk to men is
really really important. And often that is actually about just
giving people permission to talk about how they feel, which
sounds really simplistic, but I think that a lot of

(01:22:24):
times it is kind of that simplistic that when people
get to that end point, it's because they haven't found
ways ten steps back to actually be able to just say, hey, look,
I've had enough, I've had a crappy day, I don't
want to do this anymore. I don't want to you know,
I don't want to go to work, I don't want
to do this job. You know, whatever, it might be
actually just giving permission people to talk like that.

Speaker 2 (01:22:45):
Why is it that men are so hard to crack.
What's that about? Why are we these tough nuts that
have struggled to engage in having conversations around thoughts, feelings
and general mental health.

Speaker 3 (01:22:58):
Well, you know, I mean, you know the old cliches
right that, you know, men aren't supposed to talk about
these things that are supposed to be tough and so on.
But sometimes I think it's just a sim is not
having learned how to. So again, when I think you
think generationally about it, if we're teaching kids now to
talk like that, hopefully that will carry with them through
a lifetime. But I do think for a lot of

(01:23:20):
men that that sort of point in life, excuse me,
when you have sort of in your forties to fifties
is kind of the peak responsibility, peak financial stress, peak
professional stress. You know a lot of things often come
together at that point.

Speaker 2 (01:23:33):
God, I'm forty one, So what is it just going
to get worse from here? Well, if it's any consolation,
you get a little way to go. Apparently forty seven
point three is on average the most unhappiest that we
are in life. So you got sixty years to go
and then it's all uphill from there. Well, you know
what I think you get out in front of it
by actually consuming, you know, books like what Grace is Russia. Absolutely,

(01:23:56):
you know you're going to have a hell of a
lot more insight into it rather than waiting beyond the fact.
Because here's the thing, Statistically speaking, we're all probably going
to be effected at some point by by suicide. So
being to actually have a bit of information in the
old brain cells to help be of use and understanding.

Speaker 3 (01:24:15):
Absolutely and really important thing. And this applies to just
about everything with mental health, which we sometimes get right
and we talk a lot about one seven three seven,
which is an example of this. But one of the
really important things we do need to get better at
is whenever anyone needs help, they should be able to
access it. That that's the moment when they need it.

Speaker 2 (01:24:34):
You'd agree with that, Grace absolutely.

Speaker 13 (01:24:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:24:37):
Let's go to the line to got Madama on the
line there, Madama, good morning to you, Maren Madam, good good, good,
Thank you for calling.

Speaker 5 (01:24:52):
Yeah, Like, I love the topic and I just want
to get some clarity, probably more so for myself.

Speaker 6 (01:24:59):
Go for it.

Speaker 5 (01:25:02):
So, my husband's lost two people of a spare is
through suicide, and my son also lost a space mate
last year, just before Christmas. I'm disappointed in myself because
when it comes to my son's face mate, I picked
up on it and it's like as much as like

(01:25:28):
i'd always talked to my husband and going to do
something not right, what's going on? They can you talk
to me? And it was sort of like a sorry, mate,
I'm just going to do something here. And if I
was really weird, hang on, hold up, got one on approach.

Speaker 6 (01:25:40):
I met with.

Speaker 4 (01:25:43):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:25:44):
But that was really cool. That was really cool.

Speaker 5 (01:25:49):
So yeah, just my friend's best mate passed away, unfortunately.
And it's when you see it and.

Speaker 16 (01:25:59):
You read it in.

Speaker 5 (01:26:02):
I didn't step in or I didn't do enough, you know.
And I heard a few people speak of their own
experience in there.

Speaker 16 (01:26:12):
I guess it's that fear that I just thought, you know,
maybe it's in my head, maybe I'm reading it wrong,
maybe I'm I'm not understanding it, or I'm thinking too
much in it. And when it happened, the effect that
it had on no, not especially my son, but because
the whole family Nue it was such a shadding time

(01:26:35):
that I still deal with it today because it's like
exactly what some other callers are saying she could have
done more, what could have done and all of that scenario,
and it's shattering.

Speaker 5 (01:26:48):
It's really heartbreaking that. Yeah, I mean like we move on,
we get on with it, but you know, they all
their peace and now it's like, no, it's not like
I'll observe people more now, but it's like it's just
a hard one.

Speaker 2 (01:27:06):
Well, it lingers, doesn't that matter. It lingers there. And
you know, I think what you're what I'm hearing you
say at least is that you're just trying to mull
it over in your own mind and forever, forever try
and make sense of it one way or the other.

Speaker 5 (01:27:22):
Definitely, definitely. So it's just the effect of I definitely
know that. No, I'll definitely step in if I read
the signs again and.

Speaker 8 (01:27:33):
I'll just touch good.

Speaker 5 (01:27:35):
Hope I don't ever end up in that document again.
But yeah, it just my heart goes out to the families,
My heart goes out to the scenarios of everything, and
then it's like, yeah, just as gout.

Speaker 2 (01:27:47):
Reaching, Yeah it is, and I think we all understand
that it's a very different kind of grief. And then
you look to see how you can support people you know,
obviously you try and support people before you get to
that place. And I don't know. I mean I would
say for my thinking, I'm always like, if you'd see
someone who might be doing it tough, just making making

(01:28:09):
your availability of time really explicitly known to them, you know,
like so that they know that you're there, that you
know you'll make a priority of them. But is there
anything specific that comes to mind for you?

Speaker 10 (01:28:22):
Rogie?

Speaker 5 (01:28:24):
For me, definitely copy on the sixteent three.

Speaker 2 (01:28:33):
I love that we're live with you at work. This
is so cool. I'm also live at work. We've got
so much in common. It's it's amazing.

Speaker 5 (01:28:46):
Hopefully because usually the boys are listening to the station two,
so they'll probably given me a bit of a laugh
after this. Yeah, Like for me, it's probably just the
fact that, you know, like for my husband's side of things,
that those two cousins said, he lost one of them.

Speaker 13 (01:29:07):
We help once.

Speaker 5 (01:29:10):
We actually did help him, unfortunately the second time we
went around.

Speaker 2 (01:29:20):
I hear, madam, I'm really so sorry, but I got
to wrap up the show. But I think you know
what you're saying there was you know, you help the
first time you're able to be there and the second time,
for whatever reason life, you can't always be there, and
then sometimes that that's what ends up being the really
tough part. But ultimately we do what we can when
we can, where we can, we do our best. Hey,

(01:29:43):
on that note, I want to say to our guest tonight,
Grace Curtis, author of The Best Is Yet to Come,
Thank you so much for everything that you've done tonight,
but most importantly your contribution and putting this book out
into the world. Well done and awesome to have you
here and chat with with our audience tonight.

Speaker 7 (01:29:59):
Oh well, thank you so much for having me. You
guys are awesome and I'm just so glad to be here.

Speaker 2 (01:30:04):
Cale McDonald, thank you for being here. Pleasure. Jimmy and
boris our produce. This is thank you, and to Papes
who does our podcast, thank you you.

Speaker 8 (01:30:11):
Zee.

Speaker 2 (01:30:11):
On on air News Talk SEDB, thanks again, most of all,
thanks to you, and we'll do it all again next
week here on the Nutters Club.

Speaker 1 (01:30:19):
This is the Nutters Club, thanks to New Zealand on
air on News Talks EDB. For more from News Talks EDB,
listen live on air or online and keep our shows
with you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio,

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Grace Curtis: Living in the wake of suicide

Episode Transcript

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Grace Curtis: Living in the wake of suicide

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