December 6, 2025 • 36 mins
In just a few days, a law banning the use of social media for under 16s will take effect in Australia.
For many parents, social media has been a daily part of family life for years - allowing kids to stay connected with their friends and family, sharing life updates with people they may not get a chance to speak with very often.
Generations before have been relatively ignorant to just how seriously harmful it can be - figuring if they just keep open communication with their kids then they should be fine.
But younger millennial and gen Z parents seem to be recognising the dangers, and most often opting to keep their kids offline.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talk SEDB.
We say, I was in deep, been a lot somewhere
guy the Boo sky Breeze, and it don't seem their
only worry in the world is a tie.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Donna reach my dear.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Sunrise. There's a fire in sky. Never been so having
never felt.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
So high, and I think I might have found me
my own kind of periodize.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Yes, and welcome back to the show. I'm Tim Beverage.
The number is eight hundred eighty ten eighty, and this
is the Parents Squad and we're going to have a
chat about, well, what we've seen happen with Australia. It
kicks in on I think I saw October, the October
the tenth, No, December the tenth. What am I saying
October before? I don't know what I've got October in
(00:54):
my mind? December the tenth. The law around. We're going
to see a law banning the use of social media
for the under sixteens is taking effect in Australia. And look,
you know, for many people, their parents, families alike, and
we've I mean not many people aren't involved in social media.
It's been a part of our lives for years now
and look on the positive side. It allows kids to
(01:14):
stay connected with their friends and family, sharing your updates
and with family members who might not get a chance
to speak very often necessarily so. But generations before you
could argue that we've been a bit ignorant about how
harmful it can be and just keeping an open line
with communication, they should be fine. But you could argue
that the younger generation who might recognize the dangers with
(01:37):
us opting to keep our kids offline anyway, I got
to say their parents like me, as you will have
heard when we discussed in the panel as well with
some Wilson and Wilhelmina Shrimpton reckon, it would be a
good idea to have the ability to have that backup
of the fact that the law is what it will
(01:57):
be or could be what it is. The law might
enable us to have a bit of support to keep
our kids away from social media. But what do you
think does New Zealand need to introduce the same law
or will we need to do we need to tweet it,
tweak it a bit first? What would you change about it?
But do you think that basically the simple question is
(02:17):
should we be following Australia's lead in banning the use
of social media for under sixteens and joining me. He
is principal psychologist, A bit of a regular on our show.
Actually most needs no introduction. It's Google, Sutherland, get a Google?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Are you going get a tell them? Very well? How
are you? Mane?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I'm not too bad. Nice, just nice to see you.
Good coming to us from Wellington of course down the line.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yes, it's I did hear the weather just before I
came on and Auckland was like twenty two. And I
can assure you it's not twenty two in Wellington, that's
for sure.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
What is it in Wellington?
Speaker 3 (02:49):
M Lord? No, I'd guess it might be sixteen or seventeen.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Oh not a flash though.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Oh okay, it's not too bad, but you know it's
not twenty two, that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Okay, first things first, what do you reckon? Do you
like generally maybe not specifically in exactly how it is,
but do you like what Australia have done are doing
on tenth of dicent.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
I don't. I'm really torn about it. Like first principles,
I definitely agree that we should be protecting kids from
some of the from some of the negative stuff, a
lot of the negative stuff on the Internet and social media,
particularly whether I guess I just am not sure that
the band is going to do it. I worry that
people they'll put the band in and then that it
(03:37):
will just encourage kids to try and get round it,
and that people will say, yeah, we've got the band,
we don't need to do anything else. But I also
think it's I reckon it's inevitable. I reckon it's inevitable
that it's going to come to New Zealand. I think
we could do well by just pausing and seeing how
Australia goes and learning from them. They're the first country
in the world to do it, so let's let's let's
(04:00):
just tie home and see how they go. We can
learn from anything they that doesn't go so well for them,
and then we can import it over here. I do
think it's going to be inevitable. I think it'll be
an election issue. I think that people are going to
get on board, so let's just learn from the Aussies.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Well here, there's an interesting question if it's an election issue,
who would be arguing against it? Because our government are
looking at it. It's almost like everyone's going to be
fighting to say I come up with the idea first,
when we just go, well, actually.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
People, Yeah, the only party I can imagine might be
against it might be somebody like that who sort of
look at infringes on people's liberties and freedoms and that
kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
And well, if you do that, you might as well
advocate for kids to be able to go to the
pub and start drinking. I think that liberty arguments fine
for adults. And I guess that's the whole point, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
You see my buger bigger about it is that why
are we why do we have to ban kids? Why
don't we say to social media companies, you must not
put the stuff on your on your on your platforms.
You must be better about policing this for under sixteen
year olds. So you must provide a channel where that
(05:15):
where it's highly regulated and plased. So it just seems
to me that we're putting the blame and the emphasis
on the wrong place. We're putting it on the on
young people and on families. Rather than saying the social
media you clean up your act. They always seem to go, oh,
we don't really know how the algorithms work, and I'm going,
but that's rubbish. You guys have written the algorithms, you
must know how they work.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Although I think that the I'm going to take the
chance to disagree with you on a very very rare occasion, Google,
because I think what what you're you're alluding to probably
the obvious things. We know what we don't want kids
exposed to. We don't want them to be exposed to violence,
you know, death, murder, sexual things. But when it comes
(05:58):
to subtle things like oh, hey, you're not invited to
our party because you're not part of the call group,
I don't think that that it's to me, it's actually
the peer to peer you know, look at the lift,
the lifestyle limitations, the haves and the have nots, and yeah,
you're part of the core group and are you included
(06:18):
in this circle and all that sort of stuff. I
know you get that at school, but dig that's pretty toxic.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Mind. I I don't think you've changed my mind. My
argument would be that occurs at school anyway. My kids
grew up in an era where they didn't they didn't
have social media until they were twelve or feet, and
it was more you know, my oldest is twenty five now,
so so that was, you know, twenty fifteen to twenty
years ago. There was still all that out group stuff.
(06:48):
They didn't need social media. So my point is that
happens anyway, and I'm not sure if you can protect
them against that.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
No, but I would argue that it's like not allowing
that sort of behavior on steroids, which is what social
media is.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but then who polices those sure, I
mean it's if we see social.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Media, That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Yeah, but maybe they should be just policing it better,
I guess, is what I'm It just seems to me.
It just seems to me. But it's it's the emphasis
is on the wrong place. Where we're blaming the or
putting the emphasis on the on young people rather than
the social media companies.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
But but look, I they can't be trusted. That's the
simple Okay, here's another's there's another argument.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
What the social media companies trusted?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
They yeah, I agree, Greacebook care about my children's feelings,
of course they don't. They care about the bottom line.
They cannot be trusted, which is why see, I think
I'm going to turn you around on this.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Look you could be you could because I literally feel
like I'm sitting on the fence. I definitely don't, you know,
I can I see the bad side I'm not on.
I completely agree with that, and I just and I
don't think the social media band is a bad thing
at all. I just worry that it won't it won't
be the silver bullet that everybody's looking for. Yeah, that's
(08:17):
one of my worries.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
And I think Australia have got it wrong and how
broadly they have painted it because Okay, look, I don't
know some of these I don't even know what kick
and twitch her to be honest, threads, I do x
I thank god, how old fart is that? But I
do know what YouTubers. Yeah, that is a really weird one.
(08:39):
Because YouTube, I mean, they're amazing educational historically. I mean,
I think schools use various links that are on YouTube,
and I think I mean, obviously schools could could deploy
YouTube if they wanted to, you know, host a video
or something in the classroom. But the YouTube thing seems
to me something that's dying to be ignored AND's got
(09:03):
some six stuff on it as well. But I mean,
I haven't seen anything recently.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Luckily, Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I had a vague idea
they might have changed it, but initially YouTube was going
to be excluded from their band in Australia. They may
have changed that, but that was initially they were going
to be excluding YouTube.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
I might check that just to see if yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
You do yeah, because I think they it was in
and then it's out, or it was out and then
it's in one of the two, which I think in
Len's credit to the argument of let's let's see what
they do, Let's see what Australia does, Let's let them
try it out, Let's not be the first for this one.
Let's see how they go and what the what the results.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Are if you would look at it now, I mean
I sort of wanted to say, is it a feather
in Australia's cap that they've actually had their courage to
bite this, you know, take a bite of this apple
and go for it first, because I sort of do
look at them and think I wonder if there's going
to be a level of smugness on their part, like yeah,
we were the first, everyone else caught up.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
That wouldn't be like the Australians. I'm sure they've never
smug about anything. Yeah, look, they might, they might be.
It is a bold move. I think it's a really
bold move. Whether it's the right, whether it's the move
that we think it's going to be, I'm just not sure.
But look, look, I don't think it's a bad thing.
I just don't think it's it's going to be everything
(10:21):
that we that we hope and dream of.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Okay, I've got another. I've got an I'm playing Devil's
advocate today.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Cool.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
So if you were, i mean, your kids are all
grown up now, but if you were a parent of say, twelve, thirteen,
fourteen year olds and the law came in here, yeah,
would you be cheering for it? Because I would be.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah. I certainly wouldn't be lamenting it, that's for sure. Yeah,
I know, I know. Look, I really do feel like
I'm on I'm on the fence about it. I'm yeah,
I really do feel that. I don't have strong views
any either way. I just as as I said, I
(11:03):
think my biggest thing is I just and I do
worry about and it'll encourage kids to try and get
round it.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
But well, it's a bit like I mean they had
they had review. I remember when I was growing up,
you know, the R sixteen movies, and it was a
bad Yeah. I got into an R sixteen when I
was thirteen. Ruined me.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Actually, I think that's undermining your argument. Yeah, I did.
I remember getting into Rambo Rambo First Blood Part two
when I was twelve, and it was an R thirteen
and it felt like felt like Christmas was like, oh
my god. I don't know if I enjoyed the movie,
but you know, the achievement was there that you got in.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Well, I mean it was a pretty good movie. Let's
be honest. The first Rambo was a pretty good movie.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Yeah. Well, when I was twelve, I'm.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Like, you were getting in to see some cheap piece
of smut.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Like I was, no, no, no, no, no, that's true.
I was just super violent, I think. But you know,
but it looked by today's standards, I beat you, I
beat you. If we went back and watch it now,
we go like, there's nothing wrong with that, that's PG nowadays,
I reckon, I think the level of violence would be
pretty tame by today's standards.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Yeah, And that's a whole different conversation, isn't it, Because
there's something about the I mean, I've been watching the
Marvel movies with my daughters, which they really enjoy, and
I'm sort of like, you know, they're kind of a
bit of fun, but there's something sterile about the violence
in there.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Because yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
I almost wonder whether I mean, this is a slightly
Our conversations will always have different angles that spring up.
But I almost wonder whether the more realistic violence, Ah,
this is a difficult one, whether it's better if kids
are going to see violence, they should see what violence
really looks like rather than I fired this gun and
(12:54):
people fell over in the distance and we all cheered
as opposed to what is I mean direction?
Speaker 3 (13:02):
But you know, I understand what you're saying. I I
can't remember off the top of my head what the
psychology literature says about that, and whether it's actually because
I know exactly what you mean, like should we should
you know, does that sort of acclimatize people to violence
being shown this sort of violent stuff on TV which
is just sort of artificial and sterile. And I can't
remember the argument about that. Don't research about that to
(13:24):
have a wise comment about it.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
I'm gonna we're gonna have to add an extra minute
to our break when we take it then so you
can go review.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
So I look completely completely unrelatedly to the one thing
I would just say to you is that you're looking awful,
like like Graham Henry today.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
What the hell?
Speaker 3 (13:43):
What do you mean?
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Yeah, yeah, he's about seventy something.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Well, I don't well in his younger years and a
younger years.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Okay, I think we better. We just have a word
with tire about the resolution on this. That is a
definitely a random observation.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
It was, you know, as soon as you came on,
I went, god, he looks like that all black coach.
So I had to go and google it. Who was
that guy? Graham Henry? There you go, listeners if you
if you're listening out and that you want a picture
of Tim in your head.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Well, I just come along to the Christmas concert at
Holy Trinity were hosted.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Very good.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Now, but what do you think of that is there?
I mean, as I said for me as a parent, look,
I actually our kids don't have social media in the
respect of what you know we're we're looking at today,
you know, and the tip tooks and all that sort
of stuff. They've got WhatsApp and they look, I know
(14:40):
that they have groups and things like that where they Okay,
you just interrupted me then as if I've been a
bad boy.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
No, no, not that you've been bad. But going back
to our earlier conversation about bullying and harassment, how much
of that might go on on Messenger as well as
I don't know the answer to that, but I wonder
if that could be another avenue for that sort of harassment,
bullying and therefore banning Messenger. I don't know what.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
I guess. The thing with WhatsApp, for instance, we have
i mean every coach, many coaches around the country. Well
you've got to you've got a group for your touch
rugby team, You've got a group for this. That's the
problem is that they have they do have different versions
of what you can use them for. But I think
what I was going to say is I almost rely
(15:33):
on even saying to my daughters that look, Australia is
banning this stuff and we're not about to allow you
to have it. We're probably going to have a law.
I mean I'm already using it. I'm already using the
law that we don't have. Is that somehow a cop
out from me.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Ah does it work? If it works, I'd say no,
it's not a copy out, are right? It's just that
extra way, doesn't it. You know, that that extra sort
of level of why can't I do this? Well because
the police say you can't? And sometimes that's the argument
like that's the law, that's the law, that's right.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
I reckon, Well, I think for me, if I'm going
to tell my kids, if my wife and I are
going to say something we don't want them to do,
we might use that and say look, it's against the law.
But the reason it's the reason that Australia are doing
it is because of X, Y and zet. I think
if you just say look it's against the law, that's
a weak argument. But if you say why do we
have these laws, it's because these are the problems that
(16:28):
can follow.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Training good lawyers there as well. I see.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Anyway, Hey, look, we want your thoughts on this. A
couple of things. Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty we're
with Google Southerland. We're talking about the social media band
that is about to take effect in Australia in just
a few days time. Are we going to follow Australia's lead.
Do you think should we follow Australia's lead? And doesn't
matter that it won't be flawless, that kids will still
(16:56):
find a way around it if they want to, because
the bulk of the bulk of children will still have
that message that maybe you know, you'll have to keep
to these approved ways of community adding with each other.
Always I say that, I always feel like I'm losing
my argument. What do you reckon? Oh, eight hundred eighty
and eighty text nine to nine two. It is twenty
four past five News Talk ZEDB Yes, News Talk ZEDB
(17:19):
with and beverage. My guest, Google Sutherland. He's a principal
psychologist at Umbrella Well Being and we're talking about the
social media ban for under sixteens. It's going to take
an Australia take effect in Australia in four days time.
Should we do it?
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Here?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
We've got a few texts on this, welcome to jump
the queue by giving us a call as well. First
one says well well done, just from Sonia saying well
done Ossie and hurry up New Zealand. Another one says
we should be moving on this, not waiting to see
what the impact has in Australia before we do anything
about it. Our children are being harmed. And the fact
that you haven't seen anything sick on YouTube lately equating
(17:55):
me Google, it is quite a statement. Once something has
been seen, it cannot be unseen. As the period of
a thirteen year old, I don't believe the band can
come soon enough. I think the challenge here Google is
that we don't have a band here, so what how
can parents affect? And as you say, I mean a
(18:17):
government band, a parental ban kids want to find a
way around it. There's always going to be a the
kid at school who's got a link and say, hey
look at this six stuff. What's yes, what advice can
you for parents who who because we don't have a
band right now and Lucy thinks it can't come soon enough?
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look. Look the classifications officed in some
really good research on this area earlier this year and
that they really looked at particularly that exposure to what
they call objectionable content, so the real graphic stuff and
the horrible stuff, and they talk to young people about
it and basically that the upshot was that people said,
(18:58):
young people said, look, I even when I don't search
it sometimes I've seen it, you know, somebody shows it
to me when I don't want to see it, And
I do agree with that. Lastly, with that commented before
about once it's seen, it's unseen, you can't unsee it. Sorry,
But it's not always a deliberate thing that people are
seeing it. People talked about, they get sent stuff, they
see it from somebody. I think the best thing, certainly
(19:20):
at the moment, you can do if you are not
going to ban your kids from having social media, is
don't punish them when they come to you and say, hey,
I've seen this thing, so don't I know, the immediate
reaction is probably right, we'll take that device off you.
We're going to losing your phone for six weeks. I
think that pushes it underground. I think you're just they're
(19:41):
just likely not to come and talk to you about it.
So keep those communication channels open with them so that
they can come and tell you if they've seen stuff,
and at least you can then be somebody you know
and that you can support them because it seems like
they're going to see it whether they want to or not.
Maybe arguing myself into a ban on social.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Media, but this is the goal. Okay, yourself around to
a point of view.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but but I think at the moment,
the best thing you can do is actually keep those
communication channels open. One of the things that the Classifications
Office research set is that young people were worried that
their parents would immediately take their devices off them, and
that stopped them telling their parents that what they'd seen.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Actually, I think that's a really important point actually because look,
it's easy to you know, for a talk that point
of view, to have a chat about should we ban this,
should the government ban this? Should parents ban that? But look,
and I'm by no means the best parent around, but
I think the thing that we would be at pains
to do with our girls is to make sure that
(20:48):
you have to if something come, if you see something,
we don't if it wasn't you know, we just want
you to tell us. There's not going to be any punishment,
you know, We just we need to have that open. Yeah,
I don't know. It's it's funny trying to set up
that that no fault sort of thing, because sometimes kids
will actually be at fault that might not have been
(21:08):
a friend.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Yes they will, they will, yep, yep, yep. And look,
that's what teenagers do, right, We push the limits. We
all did it as teenage. You know, you and I
were talking just before about how we snuck into movies
that we shouldn't have. That's what being a teenager is about.
It's about pushing the limits, doing things that you're not
supposed to do, but you do want them not to remember,
(21:30):
their brains aren't still fully developed. Again, perhaps another argument
for why we should be banning social media and the
under sixteens. But anyway, their brains aren't fully developed, so
we need them to be. They'll do things that we
that we know are stupid that they when they've done it,
they go, my god, what have I done that for?
But we want them to be able to come to
us and say, oh my god, I've done this stupid thing.
(21:51):
There might be some natural consequences out of that, like
if you see something that's graphic, you might not be
able to underset it, and that might be consequence enough.
You don't need your parents to take your phone off you.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Well, again, I think I look for something even than
an adult. I think it was some sort of wartime
thing and I saw something I thought, actually, I maybe
because I was mature enough to actually learn the lesson
I didn't want to see, whereas to some kids. But
this is life anyway. There are going to be those
those individuals who were drawn to certain subject matter almost addictively.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Yeah, yeah, yes, that yeah, no, that's true. I mean
there are some people that will seek it out. And
that was again from that Classifications Office study that they said,
you know, some people just did seek it out out
of pure curiosity. There'll be a very small percentage of
people that had what you might call some sort of
morbid fascination with it. But I'm not sure that we're
trying to I'm not sure that's a good argument or
a good group to focus on, because it's not the
(22:49):
majority of people that we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
But you did, but you did slide towards banning it
because yeah, at the point, brain not fully developed.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Brain not fully developed, And what happens when they become six,
you know, all of a sudden, it's as an open slather.
Then it's like, well, I've never used social media before,
so here I go.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
It's like, you know, going to the pub for the
first time.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Now, yeah, that's right, Well, I'm going to have.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
You arguing for it to be eighteen soon.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Do you know what, I'd be almost more in favor
of it if we said it was sort of under
fourteen or under thirteen. I think I can find a
much stronger argument around four children. You know, under twelve,
I'd almost Under ten, I'd say yes, for sure, under twelve,
probably yes. Thirteen to sixteen.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Actually I actually do. God, I think you might have
a point there because there is something about well, I
just detected from my daughters and their friends. And look,
I think my daughters and their friends are great. You
know that young people are great, and I'm not You
know that, you know it's the generational discussion about worrying
about young people. There are some I was at my
daughter's prize giving the other day and watching kids giving
(24:05):
getting different awards for excellence, and also that some of
the other special awards the school has for encouraging your
peer groups and looking after people, and I was looking
at going there are some awesome young people here, and
I got to say that I think that maybe that
is the question about whether it's the under sixteen and look,
there are some there's some people who have kids who
(24:26):
are quite mature at that age. And others who are
just a basket case. But then again, you're going to
argue for sixteen because the brain is not fully developed.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Well, but if you follow that argument, you're going to
ban social media until they're twenty five. That's when that's
when your brain fully developed. So that means we wouldn't
be getting married, going to war, we wouldn't be voting
until you're twenty five. And maybe there's good arguments for that,
but but but yeah, I mean it's it's I guess
it's about protecting them from themselves and from what they
(24:58):
you know, from what teenagers do stupidly and pulsively that
they immediately regret that now they've seen it, they can
unsee it. So yeah, I'd definitely be in favor of
a band for under twelves, under thirteen, probably under fourteen.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, okay, we've got you to fourteen.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
We got me to fourteen. Okay, And again, I just
do I do want to say, I do think we
should be protecting our kids from from all that negative
stuff on social media. It's just my beef is how
is the best way to do it? Is a band?
The best way to do it as a band for
under sixteen the best way to do it. I'm just
not sure on that. But but I completely agree that
(25:37):
we should be protecting them from the from the horrible stuff.
I'm not debating that for a second. It's just the
ages or no, it's the method. Is this going to
be what we hope it's going to be.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
But this is the point of these conversations because we
will see the headline and go, let's do the same,
and we stop to think about, well, what is the same?
What do we want the same to look like? Do
we look at exactly the same? And what can as
you say, I mean, my Texter wants to adopt it
right now, but yep, you know, watch Australia and see
what goes on.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
Yeah, because any system I think that you adopt is
going to have a few floors and a few hiccups.
And we do have the opportunity to watch and learn
from somebody else, see what happens in six months for them,
and then and then see what we want to do.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Here's one that says I think I can almost want
of a crack an answering it myself. But this one says,
high Tim, my only child needs social media. We send
our children to school where there's bullying, fighting, and edmond
inappropriate behavior which teachers can't stop. What would we ban school?
I mean cheers grant, I mean you kick in and
I'll have my chips.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Well, that's that's the argument that I've heard force people saying, hey, look,
at least you know for that early teenage years, if
you're an isolated perhaps sort of minority group, and that
you you are getting bullied and harassed, and you just
find some support, you find other people like you, You
(27:05):
connect with other people like you on social media, and
then if you can't do that, you're you're pushed into
a lonely, isolated existence because you don't feel anybody around
you is like you. You don't know anybody like you,
and you feel lonely and you feel isolated. And I
know that's one of the arguments that said, hey, look,
this is we should help people use social media for
(27:28):
social connections.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Although when I was my my next eldest brother, I
mean I was a solid kid for a few years
once I was the youngest. Yeah, and I used to
get on the phone. I mean, I just need to
text him. I don't you just pick Yeah, I mean
it's almost the untrendy thing to do to do today.
I'm not saying people shouldn't have text and everything, but
I always wonder why people people don't you pick up
(27:52):
the phone and have a chat. Just do it all
the time.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Well, but if you're living in the sort of a
small provincial town and you're feeling very different from other
people around you in that town, who are you going
to call? You know, there's just not you don't know anybody. Yeah,
as soon as I said that, yes, no, I thought
that as well. But you know there might be people
(28:15):
in Auckland or Sydney that you connect with and that
and that that you just can't connect with them because
you don't know them. But so there are benefit. I mean.
The thing is social media is a tool, right and
it's up to us of how we use the tool.
At the moment, the tool is not being used well,
is there any other way that we can think of
(28:35):
to teach people and help young people to use it better?
I don't know if there is, to be honest, I'm
maybe I'm definitely changing my mind. We're up to fourteen
and a half.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah, we're going to get there. It's like an option.
We'll take a quick break. We'll come back in a moment.
We're with Google. Sutherland's a psychologist that umbrella while being
talking about the social media band in Australia. Should we
do it here? You can add your thoughts if you
want to give us a call on one h and
eighty ten eighty. Quite a few texts on this we'll
dig into after the break in the absence of your
(29:06):
calls back in attack. Yes, welcome back a news talk
s Hea'd be his parents quite as it says with
my guest Google Sutherland. He's a principal psychologist and Umbrella Welllebaning.
We're talking about the social media band? Do you want
to see it? Here? Lots of texts on this actually
one of them from Ray just who enjoyed our Who
you're going to call? A little exchange from Google? There? Tim,
this is an interesting one. I'll read this one, Tim High.
(29:27):
Facebook is not interested in cleaning up their act. I'm
an older lady and I don't know what older lady means. Actually,
that's very relevant relative, isn't it. You know it could
be thirty, it could be eighty.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
And I was scrolling through the page showing current stuff.
I came upon a guy on a swing and watched
it as the swing went higher and higher. I'd expect
an accident, no, but then it broke out into explicit
sexual activity. I'm no prude, but I was shocked. I
complained to Facebook and they came back to me after
a few days and said, nothing wrong with it. I
don't trust whoever vets these things. Kind regards from Pam.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Look, I heard an thinks start earlier
in the year that something like less than fifteen percent
of of posts on social media were actually social if
you you know, peer to peer, that most of it
is just commercial or advertising or and and and you know,
(30:27):
so it's not what it's not doing what it was
designed to initially, which was just to connect people. And
what I think once you kind of get your head
around that, you go, oh, yeah, it's actually just it's
just my own personal marketing.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
I think we're talking about Facebook probably because it shows
our age, whereas really it's other things. I mean, even
in age people are migrating to that. So the young
folks are going to be drifting off somewhere else, aren't they, because.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
The Yeah, it's all those you know, snapchat anything like
you know some of those things where you can just know,
like Snapchat, you can just flick somebody a thing and
then it disappears. It's like and then.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
That's why I disappearing messages. Yeah, definitely you can stop that. Yeah,
ban that that.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Yes, no, no, no, I'm just I'm just thinking it through.
I don't like to make rash decisions, but no, I yeah,
I can see yeah, I could see it. I could
see a usefulness in banning.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
That particular functions, I mean their particular functions.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Okay, I'm going to google wants to particular functions and
social media.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
I want to put the onus on the social media
companies to clean up their act.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Like you know that that.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Text that you just read out when when when sorry
I can't remember her name, and she complained and they
said there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, that's ridiculous.
I think if you're not looking for for for explicit
sexual content, you shouldn't be showing you should.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
She was probably talking with an algorithm. Whether a real
person actually looked at that clip.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
Somebody writes algorithms though, right, they're not that they're not
viruses that I mean, they don't don't just sort of
spontaneously appear somebody is writing those algorithms, and why aren't
we putting the emphasis on those people in those companies
and say, just you, I'm sure social media companies could
could easily introduce something where they can figure out what's
(32:29):
going on, like that clip. Oh yeah, we've seen this clip.
This is actually there should be a content a warning
that says explicit sexual content coming up? Why not? Why
why they do that?
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Maybe not have it there are given its Facebook? Yeah, somebody, Well,
Brad's made the point. I mean, it bought boils down
to this in the end that look, we can't always
rely on laws to you know, look after our kids.
Brad says, maybe instead of banning social media, we should
just provide parenting classes. Honestly, it all comes back to parents.
I know. That's you know, that's fundamentally flawed too, because
(33:00):
the parents who turn up are probably the ones who
don't need the help because they are engaged. And that's yep,
that's part of it, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Well, And you can have all the tit rules and
that you like, and still you know, kids will get
around those or those or it's an advertent like Pam's
example is a great one. Like you know, Pam's examples
are great. That she was not looking for that, she
was looking at a picture of a guy on a
swing and bam, and that's that's all.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
These people on Facebook going man on swing.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
We're driving up the elder of the already. Yes, no,
that's possibly true. But you know that's nothing that parenting
can take care of, right, that's just that's just malicious.
That's just malicious stuff. That's just being manipulated, manipulated. And
that's my big thing is how do we stop being
manipulated by tech companies?
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Hey, just quickly before we wrap it up, what's are
there particular seasonal changes and you know, we get towards
Christmas in different stresses that you're encountering as a psychologist
with people.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Look, in the last couple of years, it's been that
people are working right up to the very end. Like
back in the day, it used to be, well, had
the Christmas party on the sort of fifth of December.
It's a bit we're slowing down now. For the last
couple of weeks, there's no sign of that. So people
are just going and going and going and going. Ever
since COVID. I've noticed people are just working right up
(34:21):
to the final kind of day almost and that's that's
quite stressful. That's that's one of the things that.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
We've noticed people getting a little stressed.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's just the end seems longer. It's
taking us longer to get to the end of the year,
and people are exhausted. Would be my sort of take.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Well, hey doogle, can I just say before we wrap
it up, just thank you for you know, obviously it's
not goodbye, it's just Merry Christmas to you and everything,
but thank you for your contributions to show this year.
We've absolutely loved having you on and you got any
special plans for Christmas?
Speaker 3 (34:54):
Not we're having people here, and then it's our granddaughter's
first birthday on the twenty ninth of December, so we
will be going to Auckland. That'll be to be fair,
that's probably going to overshadow Christmas, right, but we haven't
family here. It'll be granddaughter, granddaughter, Yeah, granddaughter, have.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
You got your name sorted out? Are you going to
be popper? Granddad? Pops?
Speaker 3 (35:13):
We're pushing for it at the moment. The kids are
pushing for grand Dougie, so sort of a mixture of
Google and grand and so that, you know, but who
knows what will happen when she speaks. Well, I think,
having her own opinion.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
We've resolved one thing. She will not be getting a
phone for her first birthday.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
She will not, no, no, her parents are pretty strict
on that. I doubt if she'll get a phone until
she's twenty four.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Hey, all the best and yeah, thanks, yeah, And if
people want to check out Doogle's work and get in
touch with them, Umbrella well being, just going to google it.
Thanks very much, Doogle to take care. Happy Christmas yep,
you too, even though it's a few a little bit
away from Christmas because they've got a concert coming up tonight,
so I'm sort of in the Christmas mood. So anyway,
we'll be back to rat Sport in just a moment.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news
Talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talk SEDB.
We say, I was in deep, been a lot somewhere
guy the Boo sky Breeze, and it don't seem their
only worry in the world is a tie.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Donna reach my dear.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Sunrise. There's a fire in sky. Never been so having
never felt.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
So high, and I think I might have found me
my own kind of periodize.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Yes, and welcome back to the show. I'm Tim Beverage.
The number is eight hundred eighty ten eighty, and this
is the Parents Squad and we're going to have a
chat about, well, what we've seen happen with Australia. It
kicks in on I think I saw October, the October
the tenth, No, December the tenth. What am I saying
October before? I don't know what I've got October in
(00:54):
my mind? December the tenth. The law around. We're going
to see a law banning the use of social media
for the under sixteens is taking effect in Australia. And look,
you know, for many people, their parents, families alike, and
we've I mean not many people aren't involved in social media.
It's been a part of our lives for years now
and look on the positive side. It allows kids to
(01:14):
stay connected with their friends and family, sharing your updates
and with family members who might not get a chance
to speak very often necessarily so. But generations before you
could argue that we've been a bit ignorant about how
harmful it can be and just keeping an open line
with communication, they should be fine. But you could argue
that the younger generation who might recognize the dangers with
(01:37):
us opting to keep our kids offline anyway, I got
to say their parents like me, as you will have
heard when we discussed in the panel as well with
some Wilson and Wilhelmina Shrimpton reckon, it would be a
good idea to have the ability to have that backup
of the fact that the law is what it will
(01:57):
be or could be what it is. The law might
enable us to have a bit of support to keep
our kids away from social media. But what do you
think does New Zealand need to introduce the same law
or will we need to do we need to tweet it,
tweak it a bit first? What would you change about it?
But do you think that basically the simple question is
(02:17):
should we be following Australia's lead in banning the use
of social media for under sixteens and joining me. He
is principal psychologist, A bit of a regular on our show.
Actually most needs no introduction. It's Google, Sutherland, get a Google?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Are you going get a tell them? Very well? How
are you? Mane?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I'm not too bad. Nice, just nice to see you.
Good coming to us from Wellington of course down the line.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yes, it's I did hear the weather just before I
came on and Auckland was like twenty two. And I
can assure you it's not twenty two in Wellington, that's
for sure.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
What is it in Wellington?
Speaker 3 (02:49):
M Lord? No, I'd guess it might be sixteen or seventeen.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Oh not a flash though.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Oh okay, it's not too bad, but you know it's
not twenty two, that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Okay, first things first, what do you reckon? Do you
like generally maybe not specifically in exactly how it is,
but do you like what Australia have done are doing
on tenth of dicent.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
I don't. I'm really torn about it. Like first principles,
I definitely agree that we should be protecting kids from
some of the from some of the negative stuff, a
lot of the negative stuff on the Internet and social media,
particularly whether I guess I just am not sure that
the band is going to do it. I worry that
people they'll put the band in and then that it
(03:37):
will just encourage kids to try and get round it,
and that people will say, yeah, we've got the band,
we don't need to do anything else. But I also
think it's I reckon it's inevitable. I reckon it's inevitable
that it's going to come to New Zealand. I think
we could do well by just pausing and seeing how
Australia goes and learning from them. They're the first country
in the world to do it, so let's let's let's
(04:00):
just tie home and see how they go. We can
learn from anything they that doesn't go so well for them,
and then we can import it over here. I do
think it's going to be inevitable. I think it'll be
an election issue. I think that people are going to
get on board, so let's just learn from the Aussies.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Well here, there's an interesting question if it's an election issue,
who would be arguing against it? Because our government are
looking at it. It's almost like everyone's going to be
fighting to say I come up with the idea first,
when we just go, well, actually.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
People, Yeah, the only party I can imagine might be
against it might be somebody like that who sort of
look at infringes on people's liberties and freedoms and that
kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
And well, if you do that, you might as well
advocate for kids to be able to go to the
pub and start drinking. I think that liberty arguments fine
for adults. And I guess that's the whole point, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
You see my buger bigger about it is that why
are we why do we have to ban kids? Why
don't we say to social media companies, you must not
put the stuff on your on your on your platforms.
You must be better about policing this for under sixteen
year olds. So you must provide a channel where that
(05:15):
where it's highly regulated and plased. So it just seems
to me that we're putting the blame and the emphasis
on the wrong place. We're putting it on the on
young people and on families. Rather than saying the social
media you clean up your act. They always seem to go, oh,
we don't really know how the algorithms work, and I'm going,
but that's rubbish. You guys have written the algorithms, you
must know how they work.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Although I think that the I'm going to take the
chance to disagree with you on a very very rare occasion, Google,
because I think what what you're you're alluding to probably
the obvious things. We know what we don't want kids
exposed to. We don't want them to be exposed to violence,
you know, death, murder, sexual things. But when it comes
(05:58):
to subtle things like oh, hey, you're not invited to
our party because you're not part of the call group,
I don't think that that it's to me, it's actually
the peer to peer you know, look at the lift,
the lifestyle limitations, the haves and the have nots, and yeah,
you're part of the core group and are you included
(06:18):
in this circle and all that sort of stuff. I
know you get that at school, but dig that's pretty toxic.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Mind. I I don't think you've changed my mind. My
argument would be that occurs at school anyway. My kids
grew up in an era where they didn't they didn't
have social media until they were twelve or feet, and
it was more you know, my oldest is twenty five now,
so so that was, you know, twenty fifteen to twenty
years ago. There was still all that out group stuff.
(06:48):
They didn't need social media. So my point is that
happens anyway, and I'm not sure if you can protect
them against that.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
No, but I would argue that it's like not allowing
that sort of behavior on steroids, which is what social
media is.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but then who polices those sure, I
mean it's if we see social.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Media, That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Yeah, but maybe they should be just policing it better,
I guess, is what I'm It just seems to me.
It just seems to me. But it's it's the emphasis
is on the wrong place. Where we're blaming the or
putting the emphasis on the on young people rather than
the social media companies.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
But but look, I they can't be trusted. That's the
simple Okay, here's another's there's another argument.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
What the social media companies trusted?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
They yeah, I agree, Greacebook care about my children's feelings,
of course they don't. They care about the bottom line.
They cannot be trusted, which is why see, I think
I'm going to turn you around on this.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Look you could be you could because I literally feel
like I'm sitting on the fence. I definitely don't, you know,
I can I see the bad side I'm not on.
I completely agree with that, and I just and I
don't think the social media band is a bad thing
at all. I just worry that it won't it won't
be the silver bullet that everybody's looking for. Yeah, that's
(08:17):
one of my worries.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
And I think Australia have got it wrong and how
broadly they have painted it because Okay, look, I don't
know some of these I don't even know what kick
and twitch her to be honest, threads, I do x
I thank god, how old fart is that? But I
do know what YouTubers. Yeah, that is a really weird one.
(08:39):
Because YouTube, I mean, they're amazing educational historically. I mean,
I think schools use various links that are on YouTube,
and I think I mean, obviously schools could could deploy
YouTube if they wanted to, you know, host a video
or something in the classroom. But the YouTube thing seems
to me something that's dying to be ignored AND's got
(09:03):
some six stuff on it as well. But I mean,
I haven't seen anything recently.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Luckily, Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I had a vague idea
they might have changed it, but initially YouTube was going
to be excluded from their band in Australia. They may
have changed that, but that was initially they were going
to be excluding YouTube.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
I might check that just to see if yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
You do yeah, because I think they it was in
and then it's out, or it was out and then
it's in one of the two, which I think in
Len's credit to the argument of let's let's see what
they do, Let's see what Australia does, Let's let them
try it out, Let's not be the first for this one.
Let's see how they go and what the what the results.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Are if you would look at it now, I mean
I sort of wanted to say, is it a feather
in Australia's cap that they've actually had their courage to
bite this, you know, take a bite of this apple
and go for it first, because I sort of do
look at them and think I wonder if there's going
to be a level of smugness on their part, like yeah,
we were the first, everyone else caught up.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
That wouldn't be like the Australians. I'm sure they've never
smug about anything. Yeah, look, they might, they might be.
It is a bold move. I think it's a really
bold move. Whether it's the right, whether it's the move
that we think it's going to be, I'm just not sure.
But look, look, I don't think it's a bad thing.
I just don't think it's it's going to be everything
(10:21):
that we that we hope and dream of.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Okay, I've got another. I've got an I'm playing Devil's
advocate today.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Cool.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
So if you were, i mean, your kids are all
grown up now, but if you were a parent of say, twelve, thirteen,
fourteen year olds and the law came in here, yeah,
would you be cheering for it? Because I would be.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah. I certainly wouldn't be lamenting it, that's for sure. Yeah,
I know, I know. Look, I really do feel like
I'm on I'm on the fence about it. I'm yeah,
I really do feel that. I don't have strong views
any either way. I just as as I said, I
(11:03):
think my biggest thing is I just and I do
worry about and it'll encourage kids to try and get
round it.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
But well, it's a bit like I mean they had
they had review. I remember when I was growing up,
you know, the R sixteen movies, and it was a
bad Yeah. I got into an R sixteen when I
was thirteen. Ruined me.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Actually, I think that's undermining your argument. Yeah, I did.
I remember getting into Rambo Rambo First Blood Part two
when I was twelve, and it was an R thirteen
and it felt like felt like Christmas was like, oh
my god. I don't know if I enjoyed the movie,
but you know, the achievement was there that you got in.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Well, I mean it was a pretty good movie. Let's
be honest. The first Rambo was a pretty good movie.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Yeah. Well, when I was twelve, I'm.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Like, you were getting in to see some cheap piece
of smut.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Like I was, no, no, no, no, no, that's true.
I was just super violent, I think. But you know,
but it looked by today's standards, I beat you, I
beat you. If we went back and watch it now,
we go like, there's nothing wrong with that, that's PG nowadays,
I reckon, I think the level of violence would be
pretty tame by today's standards.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Yeah, And that's a whole different conversation, isn't it, Because
there's something about the I mean, I've been watching the
Marvel movies with my daughters, which they really enjoy, and
I'm sort of like, you know, they're kind of a
bit of fun, but there's something sterile about the violence
in there.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Because yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
I almost wonder whether I mean, this is a slightly
Our conversations will always have different angles that spring up.
But I almost wonder whether the more realistic violence, Ah,
this is a difficult one, whether it's better if kids
are going to see violence, they should see what violence
really looks like rather than I fired this gun and
(12:54):
people fell over in the distance and we all cheered
as opposed to what is I mean direction?
Speaker 3 (13:02):
But you know, I understand what you're saying. I I
can't remember off the top of my head what the
psychology literature says about that, and whether it's actually because
I know exactly what you mean, like should we should
you know, does that sort of acclimatize people to violence
being shown this sort of violent stuff on TV which
is just sort of artificial and sterile. And I can't
remember the argument about that. Don't research about that to
(13:24):
have a wise comment about it.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
I'm gonna we're gonna have to add an extra minute
to our break when we take it then so you
can go review.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
So I look completely completely unrelatedly to the one thing
I would just say to you is that you're looking awful,
like like Graham Henry today.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
What the hell?
Speaker 3 (13:43):
What do you mean?
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Yeah, yeah, he's about seventy something.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Well, I don't well in his younger years and a
younger years.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Okay, I think we better. We just have a word
with tire about the resolution on this. That is a
definitely a random observation.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
It was, you know, as soon as you came on,
I went, god, he looks like that all black coach.
So I had to go and google it. Who was
that guy? Graham Henry? There you go, listeners if you
if you're listening out and that you want a picture
of Tim in your head.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Well, I just come along to the Christmas concert at
Holy Trinity were hosted.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Very good.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Now, but what do you think of that is there?
I mean, as I said for me as a parent, look,
I actually our kids don't have social media in the
respect of what you know we're we're looking at today,
you know, and the tip tooks and all that sort
of stuff. They've got WhatsApp and they look, I know
(14:40):
that they have groups and things like that where they Okay,
you just interrupted me then as if I've been a
bad boy.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
No, no, not that you've been bad. But going back
to our earlier conversation about bullying and harassment, how much
of that might go on on Messenger as well as
I don't know the answer to that, but I wonder
if that could be another avenue for that sort of harassment,
bullying and therefore banning Messenger. I don't know what.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
I guess. The thing with WhatsApp, for instance, we have
i mean every coach, many coaches around the country. Well
you've got to you've got a group for your touch
rugby team, You've got a group for this. That's the
problem is that they have they do have different versions
of what you can use them for. But I think
what I was going to say is I almost rely
(15:33):
on even saying to my daughters that look, Australia is
banning this stuff and we're not about to allow you
to have it. We're probably going to have a law.
I mean I'm already using it. I'm already using the
law that we don't have. Is that somehow a cop
out from me.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Ah does it work? If it works, I'd say no,
it's not a copy out, are right? It's just that
extra way, doesn't it. You know, that that extra sort
of level of why can't I do this? Well because
the police say you can't? And sometimes that's the argument
like that's the law, that's the law, that's right.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
I reckon, Well, I think for me, if I'm going
to tell my kids, if my wife and I are
going to say something we don't want them to do,
we might use that and say look, it's against the law.
But the reason it's the reason that Australia are doing
it is because of X, Y and zet. I think
if you just say look it's against the law, that's
a weak argument. But if you say why do we
have these laws, it's because these are the problems that
(16:28):
can follow.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Training good lawyers there as well. I see.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Anyway, Hey, look, we want your thoughts on this. A
couple of things. Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty we're
with Google Southerland. We're talking about the social media band
that is about to take effect in Australia in just
a few days time. Are we going to follow Australia's lead.
Do you think should we follow Australia's lead? And doesn't
matter that it won't be flawless, that kids will still
(16:56):
find a way around it if they want to, because
the bulk of the bulk of children will still have
that message that maybe you know, you'll have to keep
to these approved ways of community adding with each other.
Always I say that, I always feel like I'm losing
my argument. What do you reckon? Oh, eight hundred eighty
and eighty text nine to nine two. It is twenty
four past five News Talk ZEDB Yes, News Talk ZEDB
(17:19):
with and beverage. My guest, Google Sutherland. He's a principal
psychologist at Umbrella Well Being and we're talking about the
social media ban for under sixteens. It's going to take
an Australia take effect in Australia in four days time.
Should we do it?
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Here?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
We've got a few texts on this, welcome to jump
the queue by giving us a call as well. First
one says well well done, just from Sonia saying well
done Ossie and hurry up New Zealand. Another one says
we should be moving on this, not waiting to see
what the impact has in Australia before we do anything
about it. Our children are being harmed. And the fact
that you haven't seen anything sick on YouTube lately equating
(17:55):
me Google, it is quite a statement. Once something has
been seen, it cannot be unseen. As the period of
a thirteen year old, I don't believe the band can
come soon enough. I think the challenge here Google is
that we don't have a band here, so what how
can parents affect? And as you say, I mean a
(18:17):
government band, a parental ban kids want to find a
way around it. There's always going to be a the
kid at school who's got a link and say, hey
look at this six stuff. What's yes, what advice can
you for parents who who because we don't have a
band right now and Lucy thinks it can't come soon enough?
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look. Look the classifications officed in some
really good research on this area earlier this year and
that they really looked at particularly that exposure to what
they call objectionable content, so the real graphic stuff and
the horrible stuff, and they talk to young people about
it and basically that the upshot was that people said,
(18:58):
young people said, look, I even when I don't search
it sometimes I've seen it, you know, somebody shows it
to me when I don't want to see it, And
I do agree with that. Lastly, with that commented before
about once it's seen, it's unseen, you can't unsee it. Sorry,
But it's not always a deliberate thing that people are
seeing it. People talked about, they get sent stuff, they
see it from somebody. I think the best thing, certainly
(19:20):
at the moment, you can do if you are not
going to ban your kids from having social media, is
don't punish them when they come to you and say, hey,
I've seen this thing, so don't I know, the immediate
reaction is probably right, we'll take that device off you.
We're going to losing your phone for six weeks. I
think that pushes it underground. I think you're just they're
(19:41):
just likely not to come and talk to you about it.
So keep those communication channels open with them so that
they can come and tell you if they've seen stuff,
and at least you can then be somebody you know
and that you can support them because it seems like
they're going to see it whether they want to or not.
Maybe arguing myself into a ban on social.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Media, but this is the goal. Okay, yourself around to
a point of view.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but but I think at the moment,
the best thing you can do is actually keep those
communication channels open. One of the things that the Classifications
Office research set is that young people were worried that
their parents would immediately take their devices off them, and
that stopped them telling their parents that what they'd seen.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Actually, I think that's a really important point actually because look,
it's easy to you know, for a talk that point
of view, to have a chat about should we ban this,
should the government ban this? Should parents ban that? But look,
and I'm by no means the best parent around, but
I think the thing that we would be at pains
to do with our girls is to make sure that
(20:48):
you have to if something come, if you see something,
we don't if it wasn't you know, we just want
you to tell us. There's not going to be any punishment,
you know, We just we need to have that open. Yeah,
I don't know. It's it's funny trying to set up
that that no fault sort of thing, because sometimes kids
will actually be at fault that might not have been
(21:08):
a friend.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Yes they will, they will, yep, yep, yep. And look,
that's what teenagers do, right, We push the limits. We
all did it as teenage. You know, you and I
were talking just before about how we snuck into movies
that we shouldn't have. That's what being a teenager is about.
It's about pushing the limits, doing things that you're not
supposed to do, but you do want them not to remember,
(21:30):
their brains aren't still fully developed. Again, perhaps another argument
for why we should be banning social media and the
under sixteens. But anyway, their brains aren't fully developed, so
we need them to be. They'll do things that we
that we know are stupid that they when they've done it,
they go, my god, what have I done that for?
But we want them to be able to come to
us and say, oh my god, I've done this stupid thing.
(21:51):
There might be some natural consequences out of that, like
if you see something that's graphic, you might not be
able to underset it, and that might be consequence enough.
You don't need your parents to take your phone off you.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Well, again, I think I look for something even than
an adult. I think it was some sort of wartime
thing and I saw something I thought, actually, I maybe
because I was mature enough to actually learn the lesson
I didn't want to see, whereas to some kids. But
this is life anyway. There are going to be those
those individuals who were drawn to certain subject matter almost addictively.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Yeah, yeah, yes, that yeah, no, that's true. I mean
there are some people that will seek it out. And
that was again from that Classifications Office study that they said,
you know, some people just did seek it out out
of pure curiosity. There'll be a very small percentage of
people that had what you might call some sort of
morbid fascination with it. But I'm not sure that we're
trying to I'm not sure that's a good argument or
a good group to focus on, because it's not the
(22:49):
majority of people that we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
But you did, but you did slide towards banning it
because yeah, at the point, brain not fully developed.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Brain not fully developed, And what happens when they become six,
you know, all of a sudden, it's as an open slather.
Then it's like, well, I've never used social media before,
so here I go.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
It's like, you know, going to the pub for the
first time.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Now, yeah, that's right, Well, I'm going to have.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
You arguing for it to be eighteen soon.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Do you know what, I'd be almost more in favor
of it if we said it was sort of under
fourteen or under thirteen. I think I can find a
much stronger argument around four children. You know, under twelve,
I'd almost Under ten, I'd say yes, for sure, under twelve,
probably yes. Thirteen to sixteen.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Actually I actually do. God, I think you might have
a point there because there is something about well, I
just detected from my daughters and their friends. And look,
I think my daughters and their friends are great. You
know that young people are great, and I'm not You
know that, you know it's the generational discussion about worrying
about young people. There are some I was at my
daughter's prize giving the other day and watching kids giving
(24:05):
getting different awards for excellence, and also that some of
the other special awards the school has for encouraging your
peer groups and looking after people, and I was looking
at going there are some awesome young people here, and
I got to say that I think that maybe that
is the question about whether it's the under sixteen and look,
there are some there's some people who have kids who
(24:26):
are quite mature at that age. And others who are
just a basket case. But then again, you're going to
argue for sixteen because the brain is not fully developed.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Well, but if you follow that argument, you're going to
ban social media until they're twenty five. That's when that's
when your brain fully developed. So that means we wouldn't
be getting married, going to war, we wouldn't be voting
until you're twenty five. And maybe there's good arguments for that,
but but but yeah, I mean it's it's I guess
it's about protecting them from themselves and from what they
(24:58):
you know, from what teenagers do stupidly and pulsively that
they immediately regret that now they've seen it, they can
unsee it. So yeah, I'd definitely be in favor of
a band for under twelves, under thirteen, probably under fourteen.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, okay, we've got you to fourteen.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
We got me to fourteen. Okay, And again, I just
do I do want to say, I do think we
should be protecting our kids from from all that negative
stuff on social media. It's just my beef is how
is the best way to do it? Is a band?
The best way to do it as a band for
under sixteen the best way to do it. I'm just
not sure on that. But but I completely agree that
(25:37):
we should be protecting them from the from the horrible stuff.
I'm not debating that for a second. It's just the
ages or no, it's the method. Is this going to
be what we hope it's going to be.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
But this is the point of these conversations because we
will see the headline and go, let's do the same,
and we stop to think about, well, what is the same?
What do we want the same to look like? Do
we look at exactly the same? And what can as
you say, I mean, my Texter wants to adopt it
right now, but yep, you know, watch Australia and see
what goes on.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
Yeah, because any system I think that you adopt is
going to have a few floors and a few hiccups.
And we do have the opportunity to watch and learn
from somebody else, see what happens in six months for them,
and then and then see what we want to do.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Here's one that says I think I can almost want
of a crack an answering it myself. But this one says,
high Tim, my only child needs social media. We send
our children to school where there's bullying, fighting, and edmond
inappropriate behavior which teachers can't stop. What would we ban school?
I mean cheers grant, I mean you kick in and
I'll have my chips.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Well, that's that's the argument that I've heard force people saying, hey, look,
at least you know for that early teenage years, if
you're an isolated perhaps sort of minority group, and that
you you are getting bullied and harassed, and you just
find some support, you find other people like you, You
(27:05):
connect with other people like you on social media, and
then if you can't do that, you're you're pushed into
a lonely, isolated existence because you don't feel anybody around
you is like you. You don't know anybody like you,
and you feel lonely and you feel isolated. And I
know that's one of the arguments that said, hey, look,
this is we should help people use social media for
(27:28):
social connections.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Although when I was my my next eldest brother, I
mean I was a solid kid for a few years
once I was the youngest. Yeah, and I used to
get on the phone. I mean, I just need to
text him. I don't you just pick Yeah, I mean
it's almost the untrendy thing to do to do today.
I'm not saying people shouldn't have text and everything, but
I always wonder why people people don't you pick up
(27:52):
the phone and have a chat. Just do it all
the time.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Well, but if you're living in the sort of a
small provincial town and you're feeling very different from other
people around you in that town, who are you going
to call? You know, there's just not you don't know anybody. Yeah,
as soon as I said that, yes, no, I thought
that as well. But you know there might be people
(28:15):
in Auckland or Sydney that you connect with and that
and that that you just can't connect with them because
you don't know them. But so there are benefit. I mean.
The thing is social media is a tool, right and
it's up to us of how we use the tool.
At the moment, the tool is not being used well,
is there any other way that we can think of
(28:35):
to teach people and help young people to use it better?
I don't know if there is, to be honest, I'm
maybe I'm definitely changing my mind. We're up to fourteen
and a half.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah, we're going to get there. It's like an option.
We'll take a quick break. We'll come back in a moment.
We're with Google. Sutherland's a psychologist that umbrella while being
talking about the social media band in Australia. Should we
do it here? You can add your thoughts if you
want to give us a call on one h and
eighty ten eighty. Quite a few texts on this we'll
dig into after the break in the absence of your
(29:06):
calls back in attack. Yes, welcome back a news talk
s Hea'd be his parents quite as it says with
my guest Google Sutherland. He's a principal psychologist and Umbrella Welllebaning.
We're talking about the social media band? Do you want
to see it? Here? Lots of texts on this actually
one of them from Ray just who enjoyed our Who
you're going to call? A little exchange from Google? There? Tim,
this is an interesting one. I'll read this one, Tim High.
(29:27):
Facebook is not interested in cleaning up their act. I'm
an older lady and I don't know what older lady means. Actually,
that's very relevant relative, isn't it. You know it could
be thirty, it could be eighty.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
And I was scrolling through the page showing current stuff.
I came upon a guy on a swing and watched
it as the swing went higher and higher. I'd expect
an accident, no, but then it broke out into explicit
sexual activity. I'm no prude, but I was shocked. I
complained to Facebook and they came back to me after
a few days and said, nothing wrong with it. I
don't trust whoever vets these things. Kind regards from Pam.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Look, I heard an thinks start earlier
in the year that something like less than fifteen percent
of of posts on social media were actually social if
you you know, peer to peer, that most of it
is just commercial or advertising or and and and you know,
(30:27):
so it's not what it's not doing what it was
designed to initially, which was just to connect people. And
what I think once you kind of get your head
around that, you go, oh, yeah, it's actually just it's
just my own personal marketing.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
I think we're talking about Facebook probably because it shows
our age, whereas really it's other things. I mean, even
in age people are migrating to that. So the young
folks are going to be drifting off somewhere else, aren't they, because.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
The Yeah, it's all those you know, snapchat anything like
you know some of those things where you can just know,
like Snapchat, you can just flick somebody a thing and
then it disappears. It's like and then.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
That's why I disappearing messages. Yeah, definitely you can stop that. Yeah,
ban that that.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Yes, no, no, no, I'm just I'm just thinking it through.
I don't like to make rash decisions, but no, I yeah,
I can see yeah, I could see it. I could
see a usefulness in banning.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
That particular functions, I mean their particular functions.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Okay, I'm going to google wants to particular functions and
social media.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
I want to put the onus on the social media
companies to clean up their act.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Like you know that that.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Text that you just read out when when when sorry
I can't remember her name, and she complained and they
said there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, that's ridiculous.
I think if you're not looking for for for explicit
sexual content, you shouldn't be showing you should.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
She was probably talking with an algorithm. Whether a real
person actually looked at that clip.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
Somebody writes algorithms though, right, they're not that they're not
viruses that I mean, they don't don't just sort of
spontaneously appear somebody is writing those algorithms, and why aren't
we putting the emphasis on those people in those companies
and say, just you, I'm sure social media companies could
could easily introduce something where they can figure out what's
(32:29):
going on, like that clip. Oh yeah, we've seen this clip.
This is actually there should be a content a warning
that says explicit sexual content coming up? Why not? Why
why they do that?
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Maybe not have it there are given its Facebook? Yeah, somebody, Well,
Brad's made the point. I mean, it bought boils down
to this in the end that look, we can't always
rely on laws to you know, look after our kids.
Brad says, maybe instead of banning social media, we should
just provide parenting classes. Honestly, it all comes back to parents.
I know. That's you know, that's fundamentally flawed too, because
(33:00):
the parents who turn up are probably the ones who
don't need the help because they are engaged. And that's yep,
that's part of it, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Well, And you can have all the tit rules and
that you like, and still you know, kids will get
around those or those or it's an advertent like Pam's
example is a great one. Like you know, Pam's examples
are great. That she was not looking for that, she
was looking at a picture of a guy on a
swing and bam, and that's that's all.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
These people on Facebook going man on swing.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
We're driving up the elder of the already. Yes, no,
that's possibly true. But you know that's nothing that parenting
can take care of, right, that's just that's just malicious.
That's just malicious stuff. That's just being manipulated, manipulated. And
that's my big thing is how do we stop being
manipulated by tech companies?
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Hey, just quickly before we wrap it up, what's are
there particular seasonal changes and you know, we get towards
Christmas in different stresses that you're encountering as a psychologist
with people.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Look, in the last couple of years, it's been that
people are working right up to the very end. Like
back in the day, it used to be, well, had
the Christmas party on the sort of fifth of December.
It's a bit we're slowing down now. For the last
couple of weeks, there's no sign of that. So people
are just going and going and going and going. Ever
since COVID. I've noticed people are just working right up
(34:21):
to the final kind of day almost and that's that's
quite stressful. That's that's one of the things that.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
We've noticed people getting a little stressed.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's just the end seems longer. It's
taking us longer to get to the end of the year,
and people are exhausted. Would be my sort of take.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Well, hey doogle, can I just say before we wrap
it up, just thank you for you know, obviously it's
not goodbye, it's just Merry Christmas to you and everything,
but thank you for your contributions to show this year.
We've absolutely loved having you on and you got any
special plans for Christmas?
Speaker 3 (34:54):
Not we're having people here, and then it's our granddaughter's
first birthday on the twenty ninth of December, so we
will be going to Auckland. That'll be to be fair,
that's probably going to overshadow Christmas, right, but we haven't
family here. It'll be granddaughter, granddaughter, Yeah, granddaughter, have.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
You got your name sorted out? Are you going to
be popper? Granddad? Pops?
Speaker 3 (35:13):
We're pushing for it at the moment. The kids are
pushing for grand Dougie, so sort of a mixture of
Google and grand and so that, you know, but who
knows what will happen when she speaks. Well, I think,
having her own opinion.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
We've resolved one thing. She will not be getting a
phone for her first birthday.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
She will not, no, no, her parents are pretty strict
on that. I doubt if she'll get a phone until
she's twenty four.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Hey, all the best and yeah, thanks, yeah, And if
people want to check out Doogle's work and get in
touch with them, Umbrella well being, just going to google it.
Thanks very much, Doogle to take care. Happy Christmas yep,
you too, even though it's a few a little bit
away from Christmas because they've got a concert coming up tonight,
so I'm sort of in the Christmas mood. So anyway,
we'll be back to rat Sport in just a moment.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to news
Talks it'd be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio.
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